23 ms·

Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder.

Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point. A lot of garbage that no reasonable person would ever buy ends up being weaseled in to new home sales because of deals the companies cut with the builders, knowing nobody buys a house based on whether they could have a user-scamming smart appliance as the default. This kind of thing is insidious- I have no idea what the solution is. Though as a afterthought, it reminds me a bit of the microsoft antitrust stuff from 20+ years ago where they bundled IE as part of destroying Netscape (im sure there is more subtlety than that, that's the gist of what I remember)

civilized 5y ago
Also reminds me of laptops being bundled with tons of crapware no one would ever use. A lot easier to just delete that stuff than to remove an appliance from your home though.
xfitm3 5y ago
I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pinewurst 5y ago
Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single form-factor.
rasz 5y ago
Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want.
- version_five 5y ago
  Thanks for the insight!
- car_analogy 5y ago
  Yeah like you can sell your smart TV and buy one of the approximately zero remaining consumer-available non-smart TVs. Voting with your wallet didn't work so far, but stay the course! Any moment now it'll start working, I'm certain.
  - amyjess 5y ago
    I mean, there's no reason you can't buy used. (though, yes, it phenomenally sucks that you can't buy one new anymore)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - jancsika 5y ago
    Approximately zero does not equal zero. Affirmation: I got a Spectre non-smart piece-of-shit TV before they sold out at Walmart. It's such a piece of shit it only lets you play mp3s from a directory on flash drive. Trust me, there's a piece of shit out there somewhere with your name on it. It's just a matter of whether you're going to put in the effort required to find it. "It's the question that drives us, Neo." -The Matrix
    - steanne 5y ago
      why would i want my tv to play mp3s?
      - jsymolon 5y ago
        A lot of times when I'm entertaining and cooking, I'll put some music on. Usually around the holidays.
        RHSeeger 5y ago
        My TV gets a single HDMI in, from my receiver; no wifi. Everything else gets plugged into the receiver. Everything internet related gets played from an external devices, to the receiver, to the TV.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Yep, but then there is the labor to uninstall, reinstall, and the effort to sell the original. The builder will actually install whatever you want, and the price is just low enough that you would not come out ahead doing the Craigslist swap later. They'll just make you pay the full price of whatever appliance you choose, no credit for the appliance you did not have installed.
abrowne 5y ago
I got new boilers (furnaces for radiator heating) installed recently, and halfway through one of the crew asked where they should install the boxes that connect the thermostats to the internet. Luckily they were completely separate, so I said I never agreed with that and they left them boxed up, because they had never thought to mention it. (They listened to my explanation that I would not have something that literally starts a fire in my house connected to the internet without at least being able to control the software it runs, but I think they were just being polite.)
- theonealtair 5y ago
  I went to use the app for my hot tub and put in the 6 digit pin, except the last number I put in was a 4 instead of a 3. It logged me in, but the temperature looked off, then I realized I wasn’t connected to my hot tub, it was someone else. Turns out the 6-digit pins are sequential. And this is from a billion dollar pool company.
  - JoeyBananas 5y ago
    That's incredible
    - theonealtair 5y ago
      The temp said 20° (which is impossible in my climate). Good thing I didn’t crank the heat up.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    This is true across a frighteningly large swath of “quasi industrial home control” stuff - all the vulnerabilities of industrial controls with zero of the attention paid to it.
    - conk 5y ago
      What’s industrial home control?
mcspiff 5y ago
It’s even worse now in Canada — not smart devices, but water heater rentals. These companies charge astronomical rates per month for a rental, or a large “contract buy out fee”. They give kick backs to developers so almost all new builds in Ontario will have them.
- ohyeshedid 5y ago
  Ahh, the Culligan/Water treatment/softener business model.
- hedora 5y ago
  I suppose their lawyers figured out that people would just recycle them and stop paying. If so, I suggest installing a water softener with an anti-backflow device but not installing a bladder pressure relief tank between it and the water heater. Also buy a whole house leak detector / shutoff valve. If the resulting water heater tank rupture doesn't lead them to breach the maintenance side of the contract, look into over-softening the water so the sacrificial anode fails every 6-12 months. (Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is a great way to do unbounded amounts of damage to your house, so don't actually do this.)
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  I think it’s a regional thing, big in Ontario and Saskatchewan, unheard of elsewhere. Always look into buyout terms. Though replacement heaters these days are lot more expensive than pre-covid :(
- LeonM 5y ago
  Could be worse. I live in a city that has a centralised heating infrastructure (every building gets a hot water connection), and my apartment came equipped with a heat exchanger that connects to said heating system. I have to _lease_ this heat exchanger from the energy company, and I cannot opt out. The lease is like 50 euros per month, though the MSRP on the unit is only 400 euros or so. Then I still need to pay for actual heat consumption, which is also 3 times more expensive than a gas powered heater that is commonly found in my country.
  - 5y ago
mindslight 5y ago
Individually, pushing back on such terms and having a strong alternative. "subtract the cost of the oven and leave the spot empty". Collectively, through market leveling regulation. "Selling" a device where the manufacturer retains control after the transaction is straightforwardly in the category of fraud. But unfortunately we seem to need new laws rather than relying on straightforward torts. Furthermore, reigning in the surveillance industry with a US GDPR would go a long way towards removing the incentives for this bullshit.
Chris2048 5y ago
> I have no idea what the solution is Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one afterwards.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  In my experience the builder will very happily install whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one you are not having installed. Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every upgrade.
  - duped 5y ago
    Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee. If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it too!
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      Could do that, I guess, but it'd still end up the same way. They probably wouldn't give you a credit. And if they did, it would be a pittance. In the end, having the big box store install it, you end up spending the same as just paying the builder their price. Like I said, it's a really great strategy for the builder. I was quite impressed with how my builder played the game, even though it was infuriating. I couldn't find a way to get around it and be financially ahead.
      - duped 5y ago
        This seems like needless defeatism. Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? Even if it's slightly more, in every remodel that you're actually going to live in it makes sense to pony up an extra grand where it matters, like your appliances. "Builder grade" is only acceptable for people who don't have to live in it, and if you're hiring the builders then you need to make that clear...
root_axis 5y ago
> I have no idea what the solution is. I think this is a case where legislation is a clear win. It should be illegal for manufacturers to gate core functionality of stationary appliances behind an internet connection. Appliances already have a legal definition in the U.S. so it's not a far fetched idea.
- verisimi 5y ago
  I don't think this legislation will happen. As part of the technocratic agenda, it is integral that all energy usage, water usage, etc is managed. For this to work, there needs to be 'kill switches'. Like the one's Biden has required new cars to have by 2025. Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of everything. The green agenda is the main sales pitch given for this, but also look out for needing to log on to go online because of ... terrorists, Russian internet attacks, child abuse, etc. We are coding ourselves into dystopia.
  - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
    Do... they? I follow a lot of people who I think you'd consider supporters of technocracy, and I've never seen anyone argue that it's good or important to have central monitoring of people's oven usage.
    - verisimi 5y ago
      They want to monitor everything. Smart electricity meters provide this functionality. Smart = spy. Eg, 'spy phones'.
      - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
        But you skipped right past the main part of my question. Who are "they"? Do you have a particular person or group in mind who thinks smart ovens are good because it's important to spy on everyone's oven usage? I ask because I'm worried you've fallen into a common rhetorical trap, conflating everything you don't like into a singular conspiracy and presuming that there must be some group somewhere who's dedicated to promoting it.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
So wait.. you get your oven when you buy your (new?) house? Everywhere i've been, you're happy if you get a kitchen, and the oven is just like a washing machine... a standard-sized piece of equipment that fits in a standard-sized hole in your kitchen, that you buy in an electronics store.
- mkl 5y ago
  Some ovens are built into kitchen benches.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    But those are standardized too, and definitely not something a builder would demand you buy. Usually you buy a house/apartment here, and then you buy a kitchen separately, and they ask you if you want a standard oven or a built-in one, and they leave a hole for either... I guess you can buy an oven with them too, and they install it, but you can definitely buy any standard sized one, and just screw it in, eg: https://www.mimovrste.com/pecice https://www.mimovrste.com/pecice https://www.mimovrste.com/i/17170441/550/550 https://www.mimovrste.com/i/17170441/550/550 <- example diagram You also need a separate cooktop for the builtin variant, but they can cut out a hole for that too (sizes are pretty much all standardized) A lot of people still use standalone ovens+cooktops, eg: https://www.mimovrste.com/stedilniki/gorenje-kombinirani-stedilnik-kc6355xt https://www.mimovrste.com/stedilniki/gorenje-kombinirani-ste...
aunty_helen 5y ago
>the only one offered by his home builder Then obviously he's powerless and the corporates have won. Or, yano just like tell them you want it changed or you'll get someone else to take your hundreds of thousands of dollars to build your house.
- nix9000 5y ago
  It's likely they bought the house from the home builder e.g. something like Toll Brothers. So the alternative is to take their hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy another house.
  - duped 5y ago
    Appliances are not that expensive, and you are free to sell whatever is in your home and buy what you'd like. If you're getting a good deal on the home you can break even, if not ahead on that.
  - aunty_helen 5y ago
    Once again, this isn't a pack of oreos you're buying from the supermarket and asking to swap a vanilla in the pack. Negotiating details is perfectly reasonable at this price point. Swap out the oven or I don't buy the house. This is a case of accepting no and then paying for the privilege.
    - nix9000 5y ago
      >Once again, this isn't a pack of oreos you're buying from the supermarket and asking to swap a vanilla in the pack. That's actually the perfect analogy. >Negotiating details is perfectly reasonable at this price point. There is no negotiation possible. It's take it or leave it. Toll Brothers don't care if you walk away; they'll turn around and sell it to someone else. >Swap out the oven or I don't buy the house. Right, exactly. Except if you insist on this then the result is you don't buy the house 100% of the time. There's no negotiation.
jml78 5y ago
I mean hell, my oven died a few months ago. We don’t have gas so induction is really the only way to go. We current had induction and didn’t want to go back to radiant Between all the appliance stores in my area we found a single unit that was in stock. Everything else was two months out. Unfortunately it is a smart oven. Good thing is that it just nags is about adding it to WiFi but doesn’t force it. But either way, we had no damn choice on a new oven due to supply chain issues.
- hanklazard 5y ago
  Same. Need a double convection oven to replace our failing one. Shocking how few are available without wifi. As has been said in other threads about connected TVs, if a few companies would just make dependable, serviceable, not-effing-internet-connected appliances, i for one, would buy all their products.
WrtCdEvrydy 5y ago
This is literally the plot line of "Unauthorized Bread"
jsjsjdghdghs 5y ago
> it was the only one offered by his home builder. pointless excuses. it was a stupid purchase just the same. before someone say blaming victims: buying an extremely overpriced appliance just so you can have it included in your expensive custom home is not a even slightly difficult thing to avoid in life. cmon. just say no and buy it later on, for cheaper no less! this is even more sily than being forced to buy a phone with data plan just to have access to public services or apply to a job. those things should be talked about. not freaking overpriced appliances sold for custom homes because your architect didn't have other options.
aaron695 5y ago
giantg2 5y ago
"I have no idea what the solution is." Tell the builder not install a stove, just the build the location and socket. They say no, then go with a different builder. My house had a glass top stove (it was a foreclosure with certain things done to it by the bank). I sold it on Craigslist. Since it was basically new, it covered the replacement.
mark-r 5y ago
20 years ago our builder let us have any appliances from any source we wanted. My wife's company was doing a cross-promotion with GE at the time, and we got a decent discount on GE appliances so we loaded up. That turned out to be a mistake in hindsight. I know there are builders that place a lot more restrictions on your choices so that they're always dealing with something familiar. I don't know how prevalent this is compared to my own experience, nor do I know how it has changed over the years.
mtgx 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mdoms 5y ago
I had my home built. I used a local builder and had complete control over everything that went into the build, from the type of foundation to the make and model of the oven. If you're paying the money you have the control.
- baash05 5y ago
  True.. but in todays supply chain issues, you might not get that house done for a long long time. I purchased a built house, six months after my neighbour. I was in 2 days after close. I took the stove and dishwasher the builder picked. My neighbour has been waiting for 2 years now. Still not able to move in. Many of the places near me broke ground a year ago, and some still have no walls.
Ansil849 5y ago
> He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder That doesn't explain why he doesn't sell this (likely very expensive) oven at cost, and then use the proceeds to buy a (likely much cheaper) regular oven.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > That doesn't explain why he doesn't sell this (likely very expensive) oven at cost, and then use the proceeds to buy a (likely much cheaper) regular oven. Maybe because that sounds like a lot of trouble that might actually lead to a worse result from his perspective? He says he actually loves the oven otherwise.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point. Also you often don't get to choose features from an a la carte menu. "Smart" features are often bundled with the other features you actually want, so there's no easy choice as a consumer.
stuu99 5y ago
" I have no idea what the solution is." Anti-trust against intel, ms, and amd, aka the trusted computing group is behind the "internet of things that spies on you" https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/ https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/ They want to turn the internet into a giant perosanl computer only corporations own and control and they are doing that by putting a secret processor inside our cpu's we don't have access to that polices and enforces copyright law. AKA you got a digital dictator in side your phone and PC. The last 23+ years theres been a war on general computing devices so that they obey hardware and software companies and not their users. So the best thing you can do is call the FTC and we sick anti-trust on intel, amd, and the trusted computing group, they are behind all this internet of things bs. https://www.ftc.gov/ https://www.ftc.gov/ https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10544 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10544
mrjin 5y ago
The thing is lots of people actually actively pursuing such so called smart devices, I personally know a few. They feels so good that they can control things from remote on their phones. For those people, they would happily connect their oven to WIFI for sure. And some self-claimed smart product managers will of course take a step further by making WIFI connection mandatory: you are going to need to connect them to network anyway! We need to have laws in place to prevent such trend going further. It's super easy for vendors to put BS in but extremely hard if not totally impossible for ordinary users to disable or circumvent.
cookie_monsta 5y ago
> I have no idea what the solution is I would think that the solution would be the same as with any time you buy a house and are not happy with some small part of it: rip that shit out, sell it if you can and put the proceeds towards buying one you like. People seem very defeatist towards smart devices, and I know they are becoming more prevalent (especially TVs) but I think we still have options
Firehawke 5y ago
I think this is where I'd leave any appliances out of the build spec. Give me the outlets, but let me choose my own appliances.
qqq111 5y ago
mywacaday 5y ago
Why is the builder deciding on appliances, surely the person footing the bill should be able to decide?
- sneak 5y ago
  Most new houses in the USA are factory affairs, built in large identical batches by a small number of giant builders who buy the appliances by the thousands at once. The list of options on the menu is finite.

civilized 5y ago

Also reminds me of laptops being bundled with tons of crapware no one would ever use. A lot easier to just delete that stuff than to remove an appliance from your home though.

xfitm3 5y ago

I would like to remotely turn on my oven to preheat, but I don't want this enough to get a wifi equipped appliance.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pinewurst 5y ago

Specifically the only choice offering dual ovens in a single form-factor.

rasz 5y ago

Craigslist is a thing, nothing stops you from selling stuff you dont want and replacing it with stuff you do want.

version_five 5y ago
Thanks for the insight!
car_analogy 5y ago
Yeah like you can sell your smart TV and buy one of the approximately zero remaining consumer-available non-smart TVs. Voting with your wallet didn't work so far, but stay the course! Any moment now it'll start working, I'm certain.
- amyjess 5y ago
  I mean, there's no reason you can't buy used. (though, yes, it phenomenally sucks that you can't buy one new anymore)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jancsika 5y ago
  Approximately zero does not equal zero. Affirmation: I got a Spectre non-smart piece-of-shit TV before they sold out at Walmart. It's such a piece of shit it only lets you play mp3s from a directory on flash drive. Trust me, there's a piece of shit out there somewhere with your name on it. It's just a matter of whether you're going to put in the effort required to find it. "It's the question that drives us, Neo." -The Matrix
  - steanne 5y ago
    why would i want my tv to play mp3s?
    - jsymolon 5y ago
      A lot of times when I'm entertaining and cooking, I'll put some music on. Usually around the holidays.
      - RHSeeger 5y ago
        My TV gets a single HDMI in, from my receiver; no wifi. Everything else gets plugged into the receiver. Everything internet related gets played from an external devices, to the receiver, to the TV.
rootusrootus 5y ago
Yep, but then there is the labor to uninstall, reinstall, and the effort to sell the original. The builder will actually install whatever you want, and the price is just low enough that you would not come out ahead doing the Craigslist swap later. They'll just make you pay the full price of whatever appliance you choose, no credit for the appliance you did not have installed.

abrowne 5y ago

I got new boilers (furnaces for radiator heating) installed recently, and halfway through one of the crew asked where they should install the boxes that connect the thermostats to the internet. Luckily they were completely separate, so I said I never agreed with that and they left them boxed up, because they had never thought to mention it. (They listened to my explanation that I would not have something that literally starts a fire in my house connected to the internet without at least being able to control the software it runs, but I think they were just being polite.)

theonealtair 5y ago
I went to use the app for my hot tub and put in the 6 digit pin, except the last number I put in was a 4 instead of a 3. It logged me in, but the temperature looked off, then I realized I wasn’t connected to my hot tub, it was someone else. Turns out the 6-digit pins are sequential. And this is from a billion dollar pool company.
- JoeyBananas 5y ago
  That's incredible
  - theonealtair 5y ago
    The temp said 20° (which is impossible in my climate). Good thing I didn’t crank the heat up.
- bombcar 5y ago
  This is true across a frighteningly large swath of “quasi industrial home control” stuff - all the vulnerabilities of industrial controls with zero of the attention paid to it.
  - conk 5y ago
    What’s industrial home control?

mcspiff 5y ago

It’s even worse now in Canada — not smart devices, but water heater rentals. These companies charge astronomical rates per month for a rental, or a large “contract buy out fee”. They give kick backs to developers so almost all new builds in Ontario will have them.

ohyeshedid 5y ago
Ahh, the Culligan/Water treatment/softener business model.
hedora 5y ago
I suppose their lawyers figured out that people would just recycle them and stop paying. If so, I suggest installing a water softener with an anti-backflow device but not installing a bladder pressure relief tank between it and the water heater. Also buy a whole house leak detector / shutoff valve. If the resulting water heater tank rupture doesn't lead them to breach the maintenance side of the contract, look into over-softening the water so the sacrificial anode fails every 6-12 months. (Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is a great way to do unbounded amounts of damage to your house, so don't actually do this.)
Scoundreller 5y ago
I think it’s a regional thing, big in Ontario and Saskatchewan, unheard of elsewhere. Always look into buyout terms. Though replacement heaters these days are lot more expensive than pre-covid :(
LeonM 5y ago
Could be worse. I live in a city that has a centralised heating infrastructure (every building gets a hot water connection), and my apartment came equipped with a heat exchanger that connects to said heating system. I have to _lease_ this heat exchanger from the energy company, and I cannot opt out. The lease is like 50 euros per month, though the MSRP on the unit is only 400 euros or so. Then I still need to pay for actual heat consumption, which is also 3 times more expensive than a gas powered heater that is commonly found in my country.
- 5y ago

mindslight 5y ago

Individually, pushing back on such terms and having a strong alternative. "subtract the cost of the oven and leave the spot empty". Collectively, through market leveling regulation. "Selling" a device where the manufacturer retains control after the transaction is straightforwardly in the category of fraud. But unfortunately we seem to need new laws rather than relying on straightforward torts. Furthermore, reigning in the surveillance industry with a US GDPR would go a long way towards removing the incentives for this bullshit.

Chris2048 5y ago

> I have no idea what the solution is Refuse to have any oven and hire someone else to install one afterwards.

rootusrootus 5y ago
In my experience the builder will very happily install whatever you want. But they will charge you full price for the appliance you select, and give you no credit for the one you are not having installed. Sounds like a bad deal, because it is. But... what are you going to do? Let them install the one they planned to, then rip it out and install the one you want later? Okay, maybe you can get enough for the original one to come out ahead financially, but mostly you won't, once labor is factored in. It's a wonderful racket for builders, they know exactly how to price it so you pay far more than the difference for every upgrade.
- duped 5y ago
  Why not tell them not to install it? My local big box stores install appliances for free or a nominal fee. If you can afford to build your own home, you can afford it too!
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    Could do that, I guess, but it'd still end up the same way. They probably wouldn't give you a credit. And if they did, it would be a pittance. In the end, having the big box store install it, you end up spending the same as just paying the builder their price. Like I said, it's a really great strategy for the builder. I was quite impressed with how my builder played the game, even though it was infuriating. I couldn't find a way to get around it and be financially ahead.
    - duped 5y ago
      This seems like needless defeatism. Why settle for a worse out come for the same amount of money? Even if it's slightly more, in every remodel that you're actually going to live in it makes sense to pony up an extra grand where it matters, like your appliances. "Builder grade" is only acceptable for people who don't have to live in it, and if you're hiring the builders then you need to make that clear...

root_axis 5y ago

> I have no idea what the solution is. I think this is a case where legislation is a clear win. It should be illegal for manufacturers to gate core functionality of stationary appliances behind an internet connection. Appliances already have a legal definition in the U.S. so it's not a far fetched idea.

verisimi 5y ago
I don't think this legislation will happen. As part of the technocratic agenda, it is integral that all energy usage, water usage, etc is managed. For this to work, there needs to be 'kill switches'. Like the one's Biden has required new cars to have by 2025. Technocrats want to (micro) manage everyone's usage of everything. The green agenda is the main sales pitch given for this, but also look out for needing to log on to go online because of ... terrorists, Russian internet attacks, child abuse, etc. We are coding ourselves into dystopia.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  Do... they? I follow a lot of people who I think you'd consider supporters of technocracy, and I've never seen anyone argue that it's good or important to have central monitoring of people's oven usage.
  - verisimi 5y ago
    They want to monitor everything. Smart electricity meters provide this functionality. Smart = spy. Eg, 'spy phones'.
    - SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
      But you skipped right past the main part of my question. Who are "they"? Do you have a particular person or group in mind who thinks smart ovens are good because it's important to spy on everyone's oven usage? I ask because I'm worried you've fallen into a common rhetorical trap, conflating everything you don't like into a singular conspiracy and presuming that there must be some group somewhere who's dedicated to promoting it.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago

So wait.. you get your oven when you buy your (new?) house? Everywhere i've been, you're happy if you get a kitchen, and the oven is just like a washing machine... a standard-sized piece of equipment that fits in a standard-sized hole in your kitchen, that you buy in an electronics store.

mkl 5y ago
Some ovens are built into kitchen benches.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  But those are standardized too, and definitely not something a builder would demand you buy. Usually you buy a house/apartment here, and then you buy a kitchen separately, and they ask you if you want a standard oven or a built-in one, and they leave a hole for either... I guess you can buy an oven with them too, and they install it, but you can definitely buy any standard sized one, and just screw it in, eg: https://www.mimovrste.com/pecice https://www.mimovrste.com/pecice https://www.mimovrste.com/i/17170441/550/550 https://www.mimovrste.com/i/17170441/550/550 <- example diagram You also need a separate cooktop for the builtin variant, but they can cut out a hole for that too (sizes are pretty much all standardized) A lot of people still use standalone ovens+cooktops, eg: https://www.mimovrste.com/stedilniki/gorenje-kombinirani-stedilnik-kc6355xt https://www.mimovrste.com/stedilniki/gorenje-kombinirani-ste...

aunty_helen 5y ago

>the only one offered by his home builder Then obviously he's powerless and the corporates have won. Or, yano just like tell them you want it changed or you'll get someone else to take your hundreds of thousands of dollars to build your house.

nix9000 5y ago
It's likely they bought the house from the home builder e.g. something like Toll Brothers. So the alternative is to take their hundreds of thousands of dollars and buy another house.
- duped 5y ago
  Appliances are not that expensive, and you are free to sell whatever is in your home and buy what you'd like. If you're getting a good deal on the home you can break even, if not ahead on that.
- aunty_helen 5y ago
  Once again, this isn't a pack of oreos you're buying from the supermarket and asking to swap a vanilla in the pack. Negotiating details is perfectly reasonable at this price point. Swap out the oven or I don't buy the house. This is a case of accepting no and then paying for the privilege.
  - nix9000 5y ago
    >Once again, this isn't a pack of oreos you're buying from the supermarket and asking to swap a vanilla in the pack. That's actually the perfect analogy. >Negotiating details is perfectly reasonable at this price point. There is no negotiation possible. It's take it or leave it. Toll Brothers don't care if you walk away; they'll turn around and sell it to someone else. >Swap out the oven or I don't buy the house. Right, exactly. Except if you insist on this then the result is you don't buy the house 100% of the time. There's no negotiation.

jml78 5y ago

I mean hell, my oven died a few months ago. We don’t have gas so induction is really the only way to go. We current had induction and didn’t want to go back to radiant Between all the appliance stores in my area we found a single unit that was in stock. Everything else was two months out. Unfortunately it is a smart oven. Good thing is that it just nags is about adding it to WiFi but doesn’t force it. But either way, we had no damn choice on a new oven due to supply chain issues.

hanklazard 5y ago
Same. Need a double convection oven to replace our failing one. Shocking how few are available without wifi. As has been said in other threads about connected TVs, if a few companies would just make dependable, serviceable, not-effing-internet-connected appliances, i for one, would buy all their products.

WrtCdEvrydy 5y ago

This is literally the plot line of "Unauthorized Bread"

jsjsjdghdghs 5y ago

> it was the only one offered by his home builder. pointless excuses. it was a stupid purchase just the same. before someone say blaming victims: buying an extremely overpriced appliance just so you can have it included in your expensive custom home is not a even slightly difficult thing to avoid in life. cmon. just say no and buy it later on, for cheaper no less! this is even more sily than being forced to buy a phone with data plan just to have access to public services or apply to a job. those things should be talked about. not freaking overpriced appliances sold for custom homes because your architect didn't have other options.

aaron695 5y ago

giantg2 5y ago

"I have no idea what the solution is." Tell the builder not install a stove, just the build the location and socket. They say no, then go with a different builder. My house had a glass top stove (it was a foreclosure with certain things done to it by the bank). I sold it on Craigslist. Since it was basically new, it covered the replacement.

mark-r 5y ago

20 years ago our builder let us have any appliances from any source we wanted. My wife's company was doing a cross-promotion with GE at the time, and we got a decent discount on GE appliances so we loaded up. That turned out to be a mistake in hindsight. I know there are builders that place a lot more restrictions on your choices so that they're always dealing with something familiar. I don't know how prevalent this is compared to my own experience, nor do I know how it has changed over the years.

mtgx 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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mdoms 5y ago

I had my home built. I used a local builder and had complete control over everything that went into the build, from the type of foundation to the make and model of the oven. If you're paying the money you have the control.

baash05 5y ago
True.. but in todays supply chain issues, you might not get that house done for a long long time. I purchased a built house, six months after my neighbour. I was in 2 days after close. I took the stove and dishwasher the builder picked. My neighbour has been waiting for 2 years now. Still not able to move in. Many of the places near me broke ground a year ago, and some still have no walls.

Ansil849 5y ago

> He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder That doesn't explain why he doesn't sell this (likely very expensive) oven at cost, and then use the proceeds to buy a (likely much cheaper) regular oven.

tablespoon 5y ago
> That doesn't explain why he doesn't sell this (likely very expensive) oven at cost, and then use the proceeds to buy a (likely much cheaper) regular oven. Maybe because that sounds like a lot of trouble that might actually lead to a worse result from his perspective? He says he actually loves the oven otherwise.

tablespoon 5y ago

> Like many people may have, my first though was why would you buy a smart oven. He explains in a follow up that it was the only one offered by his home builder. And this is an important and overlooked point. Also you often don't get to choose features from an a la carte menu. "Smart" features are often bundled with the other features you actually want, so there's no easy choice as a consumer.

stuu99 5y ago

" I have no idea what the solution is." Anti-trust against intel, ms, and amd, aka the trusted computing group is behind the "internet of things that spies on you" https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/ https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/ They want to turn the internet into a giant perosanl computer only corporations own and control and they are doing that by putting a secret processor inside our cpu's we don't have access to that polices and enforces copyright law. AKA you got a digital dictator in side your phone and PC. The last 23+ years theres been a war on general computing devices so that they obey hardware and software companies and not their users. So the best thing you can do is call the FTC and we sick anti-trust on intel, amd, and the trusted computing group, they are behind all this internet of things bs. https://www.ftc.gov/ https://www.ftc.gov/ https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10544 https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10544

mrjin 5y ago

The thing is lots of people actually actively pursuing such so called smart devices, I personally know a few. They feels so good that they can control things from remote on their phones. For those people, they would happily connect their oven to WIFI for sure. And some self-claimed smart product managers will of course take a step further by making WIFI connection mandatory: you are going to need to connect them to network anyway! We need to have laws in place to prevent such trend going further. It's super easy for vendors to put BS in but extremely hard if not totally impossible for ordinary users to disable or circumvent.

cookie_monsta 5y ago

> I have no idea what the solution is I would think that the solution would be the same as with any time you buy a house and are not happy with some small part of it: rip that shit out, sell it if you can and put the proceeds towards buying one you like. People seem very defeatist towards smart devices, and I know they are becoming more prevalent (especially TVs) but I think we still have options

Firehawke 5y ago

I think this is where I'd leave any appliances out of the build spec. Give me the outlets, but let me choose my own appliances.

qqq111 5y ago

mywacaday 5y ago

Why is the builder deciding on appliances, surely the person footing the bill should be able to decide?

sneak 5y ago
Most new houses in the USA are factory affairs, built in large identical batches by a small number of giant builders who buy the appliances by the thousands at once. The list of options on the menu is finite.