62 ms·

Defensive tactics from the modern history of urban warfare

359 points by martingoodson 5y ago

hbarka 5y ago
Supplies through a siege a logistical nightmare
- biohax2015 5y ago
  Through Poland would be my guess.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania are also NATO members bordering Ukraine. Lots of ways in and out.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Possibly via any of the EU countries sharing a border with Ukraine i.e. Poland, Slovakia, Hungary or Romania. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-countries/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-coun...
- jl6 5y ago
  I’m wondering how supplying weapons is supposed to stay clear of Putin’s warning to other nations not to interfere or face instant consequences.
  - sharpneli 5y ago
    Putin cannot really do much. West fully joining the war would mean nuclear exchange. But Puting ending the world due to weapons shipments? Very unlikely.
  - e-clinton 5y ago
    What is Putin going to do? Bomb a NATO country? That won’t end well for him or anyone else.
    - SergeAx 5y ago
      Putin has a proxy - Belorussia, controlled by a same-type ageing dictator Lukashenko. He is doing a military mobilization right now and has borders with Poland and Baltic states.
      - einarfd 5y ago
        Belorussia attacking a NATO country ends at best in it being occupied by NATO, at worst in the same war between NATO and Russia that Putin don't want in the first place.
        InitialLastName 5y ago
        This. A way worse result for Putin than Ukraine slowly becoming NATO-aligned is a sudden NATO-enforced regime change in his other (and currently reliable) European buffer state.
        SergeAx 5y ago
        Belorussia is a member of Collective Security Treaty Organization (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_O...). Armenia is a member too, but Putin didn't help them in Nagorny Karabakh, saying it was Azerbaijan territory by international law. I beleive it was a demonstrative punishment for Armenian 2018 "velvet" revolution. Kazakhstan is a member too. Putin used his army in Kazakhstan in January after Tokaev said that protesters are supposedly foreign terrorists. Putin will not directly help Lukashenko against NATO countries on their territory, but is well capable of throwing his army to "protect" Belorussia from retaliation, including anti-air warfare.
  - beefield 5y ago
    I don't think it is sensible at the moment to take into account what Putin says or has not said. It is obvious his words have no resemblance whatsoever to his actions. He does not need excuses to attack other countries.
  - saiya-jin 5y ago
    Not intervening is a sure way to have delayed consequences from same aggressor, of same or worse manner. This isn't about Ukraine itself anymore, not with Russia/Soviet history of dominance, coercion, bullying and murder. Nothing has changed in the leadership, not for the better at least. I really don't get people who are naive about Putin. He is extremely clear in his communication about his goals and he just started yet another phase of realizing them. For those won't bother going through them - the goal is pre-1989 setup at least within Europe and near east. All the countries formerly enslaved by Russian communism in some form have very strong objections, and well the rest of free world seems to agree.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Airdrop it in Poland, Slovakia or Romania, drive it across the border.
  - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
    So what happens when we try to airdrop something and an S-400 blows the plane out of the sky? Are we really going to expect that Russia will allow such interference? Would the West have allowed Russia to airdrop supplies to Iraq during the Iraq War in 2003.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      The countries I mentioned are NATO countries... If Putin attacks US planes over NATO airspace he'll have a bigger problem...
      - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
        Is Ukraine NATO airspace?
wslh 5y ago
Newer in HN: Urban warfare tips from a former Marine in the Ukraine subreddit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30476658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30476658
sullivanmatt 5y ago
Mirror https://web.archive.org/web/20220223141210/https://mwi.usma.edu/defending-the-city-an-overview-of-defensive-tactics-from-the-modern-history-of-urban-warfare/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220223141210/https://mwi.usma....
jonsty2023 5y ago
/s russian ddos attack
madengr 5y ago
Animats 5y ago
For how to attack a city, see "Urban Operations", the U.S. Army/USMC doctrinal publication.[1] The two documents view different kinds of war. The USMA pub describes historic WWII city defenses where the defenders held out against armor for long periods, at the cost of high casualties and destroying the city. That is, Stalingrad. The US doctrinal pub describes US-style modern wars of taking over a city without too much collateral damage, followed by "stability operations". That is, Baghdad. [1] https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452_ATP%203-06%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452...
- dnadler 5y ago
  There's also a good chapter on urban defense in there. Chapter 5
- ivanhoe 5y ago
  Whether you will have one or the other depends also a lot on the determination, preparedness and fire-power of the defenders. In Iraq majority was against Saddam and didn't really want to fight, while people in Ukraine cities seem to be very united and determined to defend every house, and also have been supplied with a lot of personal anti-armor weapons and had months to plan the defenses - so regardless of the Russian doctrine, I really doubt Russian army will be able to move fast this time... unfortunately, as you said, that means a lot more civilian casualties, and a lot more destruction...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mlinksva 5y ago
Interesting read. I guess it's self-evident, but not having thought about the topic, the utility of rubble and repurposing semi-destroyed structures, as well as how important snipers are, were new to me. Maybe the importance of snipers makes civilians being handed out guns in Kyiv now seem less futile. Would be interested to read a basic explainer along these lines on "How to Rebuild a City" -- I guess one divergence from urban planning/development literature would be on how to reuse rubble? Given the many destroyed cities through history including this century which have been at least partially reubilt (perhaps Grozny was first of this century?) I guess there must be plenty written on this topic.
- ch4s3 5y ago
  I read about the Lebanese civil war a few years ago and it was pretty eye opening. Urban warfare seems terrifying from the perspective of the attacker.
  - gitfan86 5y ago
    If you are in a group and a sniper hits someone that isn't an instant kill, what do you do? Take cover and let them die, or run in the line of fire and try to help or try to find the sniper?
    - peakaboo 5y ago
      Snipers intentionally shoot to not kill sometimes, so they get more targets.
      - bluGill 5y ago
        That isn't allowed by the Geneva convention. It is very effective though, so I'm sure it is done.
        vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
        You make it sound like it is intentionally done but if the shooter is far away/has poor accuracy and the soldier has body armor, chances are he will be incapacitated but not killed. After that the question is: is more morally ok to killed the downed soldier or wait for his unit who is still and active aggressor.
yosito 5y ago
What I'm wondering, with Russia being a nuclear power, what is Ukraine's end game? They seem to be doing a pretty good job of destroying invading force so far, but what's next? They either run out of steam defending, or they start to hit back at Russia, but then Russia could just unload a few nukes on them and be done with it. The West seems intent on not getting involved, and if they won't risk conflict now due to mutually assured destruction, they won't risk it after Russia uses nukes on Ukraine either. Is getting the Russian military to turn on Putin the only hope?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  I think the end game is likely "make it costly enough to stay", so Russia makes a face-saving withdrawal on a "we successfully demilitarized Ukraine by getting rid of a lot of their military equipment" basis.
  - lstodd 5y ago
    There no more is any face to save.
- Teever 5y ago
  Ukraine's endgame is to inflict so many casualties and destroy so much equipment that the Russians have no choice but to turn back in shame which along with sanctions from the rest of the world will hopefully lead to an uprising by the Russian people and an overthrow of Putin and his Oligarchs.
  - xtian 5y ago
    Willing to put money on any of that?
    - tlear 5y ago
      Kyiv will fall. But Kyiv is not whole of Ukraine. West Ukraine hates russians a lot more, it has a long border with Polland. There is something like 1million Ukranians living in Polland.. there is already a stream of volunteers crossing the border heading east. Cost of Ukrainian occupation is going to be high. Can that stop russians? we don't know, but they will pay in blood and money. This is not Syria or Georgia where small professional units could make a difference. This is a huge country with a big population and a long border through which weapons and volunteers will flow. I had my doubts about Ukranian will to fight(I was born in Kyiv), I was wrong. I think Putin miscalculated quite a bit.
qnsi 5y ago
The article links to Army Doctrine. I am surprised to find it open to people outside of army. Does anyone perhaps know if there is resource like this for Army communication? I would be most interested in not combat communication where they have to give orders, but maybe where they have more time to share opinions down and up the hierarchy, maybe garher intel. I think it could be useful to management science, but havent found anyone trying to icorpate defense learnings into management
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  I would likewise be interested in communication systems that are social systems rather than tech systems (I.e. what do you do when phone/internet systems collapse?) Though I suppose that is probably only appropriate for an insurgency as you would have/use radio tech…
  - littlestymaar 5y ago
    > I.e. what do you do when phone/internet systems collapse? I suspect the wired network in a city to be quite strong actually, since most of it is buried. For sure, you'd have lost connectivity to the rest of the world and internet, but setting-up a local telephone network using the copper wire network still standing doesn't sound that hard actually!
    - germinalphrase 5y ago
      With the discontinuation of POTS, is the copper being used for some other purpose?
      - littlestymaar 5y ago
        I don't know about Ukraine specifically, but DSL is still really important in Europe.
- mcguire 5y ago
  You might poke around https://armypubs.army.mil/ https://armypubs.army.mil/ This kind of thing is scattered all over the place, but it's generally publicly available. How about https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN18314-ADP_6-0-000-WEB-3.pdf https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN18314-ADP_6-... There are also https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/ https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/
roveo 5y ago
Interesting, just yesterday I discussed with a friend of mine how dumb it is for Putin to attack and try to capture Kiev, because urban warfare is very difficult and usually leads to very heavy casualties. She asked "why?" and I realised that I have an intuitive understanding about this because I've played Call of Duty and she hasn't (obviously not saying that CoD is representative of actual war, but you get the idea of what a sniper or machine gun nest in a city is just from game mechanics). Things that are obvious for some people are absolutely not obvious for others. Btw, Pavlov's House defence is mentioned in the article and there's a corresponding mission in CoD.
- structural 5y ago
  You can look at CoD and similar games as being very basic introductory material to military ground operations - building a surprising amount of intuition from a young age. It's also useful as a propaganda & recruitment tool.
  - Sporktacular 5y ago
    It has been sooo cringy watching gamers try analyse actual military operations with zero competence, self-awareness, humility or respect for what is really at stake.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - HideousKojima 5y ago
      Also CoD and Battlefield aren't going to teach real tactics. Arma is the closest you'll get to what "real" war is like, but even that mostly forgets that logistics is about 90% of winning a war.
      - Sporktacular 5y ago
        Not my point but...
jmyeet 5y ago
100% Putin is the bad guy here. There's no justification for invasion. None. That being said, we need to look at how we got here, maybe what should've happened instead and what can be done to hopefully defuse and resolve this situation. First, dangling the carrot of NATO membership, which because with George W Bush's swansong in a NATO summit in Bucharest in 2008 (and hasn't been changed by any subsequent administration) was dangerous and deliberately antagonistic to Russia. This was compounded by successive waves of expansion after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the entity NATO was supposedly created to defend against. Second, Zelensky seems out of his depth here (geopolitically) and should've realized this. The annexation of Crimea in 2014 should've raised the alarm bells here both that embracing to the West was dangerous and because of the threat of Russia unlikely to ever happen. This means another route needs to be paved. Third, outright refusing to take NATO membership off the negotiating table by the US (which, as noted, was never going to happen) was downright irresponsible and clueless, particularly when the US would never put troops into Ukraine and directly get into a military conflict with Russia. That alone should prompt a less hardline approach. This brings me to the substance of the article and a model that should've been pursued by the Ukrainian government. And that is one of neutrality, probably most similar to the Swiss model. This would include: 1. A consitutional amendment against joining any military alliance; 2. A consitutional amendment for military neutrality that might include, for example, not allowing passage by any foreign military without, say, the approval of both Russia and NATO; 3. National service, say 12 months. 4. A policy of building a defensive army. That means fixed military installations, particularly on entry points into Ukraine. It also means tactical rather than strategic weapons; 5. Equipping and training armed services in insurgency. Hardened communications, access to caches of small arms in the vent of invasion and access to weapons that have shown to be devastating against an occupying force (eg portable SAMs). 6. Exercises and planning for defending Ukraine against large outside military forces. The idea here isn't necessarily to win in such a conflict but to make the cost of victory and occupation so high as to deter it from happening. You would probably need additional steps to protect legitimate Russian economic interests, most specifically pipelines of oil and gas to the EU and deepwater port access to the Black Sea. As for disputed regions, you may need to adopt a model similar to, say, Nortern Ireland of joint control and semi-autonomy while still being with the borders of Ukraine.
- 5y ago
paganel 5y ago
It can be, relatively speaking, quite easy to defend a city, the Syrian rebels in East Aleppo became quite good at it pretty fast, the same goes for the rebels in the Damascus neighbourhood of Jobar (for this latter example I recommend this video [1], it gives a general idea of how it well went; bear in mind that it was filmed from the pov of the government forces). The problem is that the attacking force at some point realises that the defendants are pretty well dug in and the commanders of those attacking forces also realise that one of the few solutions available in order to achieve victory is to, almost quite literally, flatten the city. That's what happened in East Aleppo (with the help of the Russian airforce), that's what happened in Jobar, too. Not sure if the flattening of Kyiv would be the best thing for the Ukranian people going forward. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ZXPhmR7lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ZXPhmR7lQ
- squarefoot 5y ago
  Flattening Kyiv is Putin's last resort: he can't retire and he can't drag things for too long, but should he give the order to level the city and reports would slip under the censorship to Russian people and the rest of the world, that would surely be the first day of his demise.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    He is already doing it, just ran out of ammo. Russian ammo stockpiles are wast, but very old, and decrepit. Some literally date to WW2. In first 2 days, they used pretty much everything against city outskirts. You think Putin is afraid losing sleep? He already tried to bomb the Kiyv dam multiple times, he wants to destroy the city plainly, and simple. https://uacrisis.org/en/the-russian-occupiers-tried-to-blow-up-the-dam-of-the-kyiv-reservoir https://uacrisis.org/en/the-russian-occupiers-tried-to-blow-... If Kiyv dam is breached, it will flood the Zaporizhna nuclear plant.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      Where did you get this data about their ammo stockpiles? I'd love to believe it.
Avicebron 5y ago
I know two people in Ukraine who have received automatic weapons from the gov't...I do wonder how reasonable it is to arm untrained civilians. Turning someone without training into an armed combatant against an invading military seems like putting them directly in a high risk of being shot (as opposed to the lower risk of collateral casualty) EDIT: it's not my hill to die on, I just hope it's not theirs either
- zttg 5y ago
  People are dying there because of those weapons! Guess what criminals do when you can get automatic rifle for free? Do they fight against invaders?
- amelius 5y ago
  Also, how is this coordinated, and how do they prevent being shot at by their own people?
  - op00to 5y ago
    They are trained by the local defense organization.
  - peakaboo 5y ago
    It's a war. Normal rules to not apply. If you are ever in one, you will want a weapon, trust me.
    - Friday_ 5y ago
      ... there are some rules by Geneva convention This civilians with guns are now combatants. And must "carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war"
      - lazide 5y ago
        Lulz - that’s all well and good, except that gets paid mostly lip service even by the professional militaries, who are the ones who have the most to lose by not following the rules. Civilians do what they need to do to survive and protect their loved ones. If that means shivving a soldier in the back while pretending to be unarmed, so be it. Having guns is way better than civilians usually get.
squarefoot 5y ago
This is a war that is also fought online. It is extremely important to keep the flow of information running from Ukraine. Putin will very likely order to shut down cellphone coverage and the Internet in Ukraine as soon as they full enter Kyiv and he'll fear about reports of either mass killings among civilians and/or defeats among the Russian military; such information reaching both the world and Russian people is what he fears the most. Shutting down communications would be also a problem for keeping the resistance interconnected, as common analog walkie talkies wouldn't be an option for being easy to tap, and they essentially speak the same language. I wonder what can be done to quickly hand Ukrainians satellite Internet routers plus the infrastructure to build mesh stations and keep them connected.
- tpmx 5y ago
  I'm amazed they've managed to keep the country online for so long during this war. Points to solid groundwork since 2014. Vice PM of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/1497543633293266944 https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/14975436332932669... @elonmusk, while you try to colonize Mars — Russia try to occupy Ukraine! While your rockets successfully land from space — Russian rockets attack Ukrainian civil people! We ask you to provide Ukraine with Starlink stations and to address sane Russians to stand.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > Putin will very likely order to shut down cellphone coverage and the Internet in Ukraine It's easy to shut down internet in Belarus or Kazakhstan, because they deliberately wired their connectivity through single control point. Ukraine has multiple cross-border connections and exchange points within, so it's not just a press of a button, but a full blown min-cut max-flow adventure.
belter 5y ago
"Offense and Defense" https://web.archive.org/web/20220129201329/https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN18377_ADP%203-90%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220129201329/https://armypubs.... "Urban Operations" https://web.archive.org/web/20220120161007/https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452_ATP%203-06%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220120161007/https://armypubs.... "Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain" https://web.archive.org/web/20220214151137/https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-ws/view/100.ATSC/14C757E0-F97D-48DC-BE09-F70CADFBC393-1315488976677/attp_3-06x11.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220214151137/https://rdl.train...
Ambix 5y ago
What about the same advice for the citizens of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan? Should they have fought for their liberty against US troops the same way?
- jacobolus 5y ago
  US troops have never invaded Iran. Maybe you are thinking of the 1980 Iraqi invasion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Iran The 1953 coup in Iran was organized/supported by the CIA, but did not involve US troops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état During the 1979–1980 US embassy hostage crisis, there was an aborted attempt to rescue American hostages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Curious honest question, has there ever been a successful urban attack in the past, say, 30 years, where the urban population by-and-large really doesn't want the attackers to be there? I mean, when I look at urban warfare, I think of the following possible outcomes: 1. Total annihilation, e.g. Warsaw at the end of WWII. 2. Splitting the city up into factional neighborhoods. Possible but given the situation in Kiev, there don't seem to be many Russian supporters there anong the native population (this is not true in Eastern Ukrainian cities) 3. Subduing the defenders and installing a puppet government. I think the best model here appears to be the Soviet Union crushing the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. #3 seems like the most obvious intention of Putin, but I just don't really see how that is possible in modern Kyiv. In 1956 Budapest there were plenty of Communist supporters - indeed, they were the ones in power before the revolution. The "best" outcome I can see from this war is that Putin completes the annexation of Luhansk and Donetsk, with possibly some other eastern regions e.g. a full land bridge from Crimea to Donetsk, as well as Kharkiv, but I just don't understand the attack on all of Ukraine. If anything you'll just get a further sorting of the country where everyone who despises Russia moves to the west and everyone else decides to stay/move to Russian-occupied areas.
- chefkoch 5y ago
  Aleppo?
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  I’m confident the attack on the whole Ukraine is to prevent Western weapon supplied counter attacks. I doubt they have long term plans for occupation for the entire country.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    When your enemy tells you what he is going to do, it is best, to a first order approximation, to believe him.
    - cjbgkagh 5y ago
      Do you mean what they said or what others said that they said because unfortunately they are different and not enough people know that despite how easy it is to check?
b_emery 5y ago
Given the lead up to this, is there any evidence that the Ukranians have taken these kinds of measures?
- terafo 5y ago
  Yes. There is some footage from cities, but army asks people not to film their preparations so russian forces can't get intel from social networks.
eternalban 5y ago
John Spencer, 'Chair of Urban Warfare Studies, Modern War Institute', gives a twitter lecture to Ukrainians on urban warfare tactics to employ: https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1497583307504046087 https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1497583307504046087
gorgoiler 5y ago
What are the mechanisms used to flush out saboteurs? Some sort of explicit web of trust amongst locals? Automatic detention of loners?
- Pius_IX 5y ago
  All of those and lots more. There will be roadblocks with controls. Some kind of identification system among the military (Think codenames like in Band of Brothers, where they all use "Thunder!" and the response "Flash!" during D-Day but a little more sophisticated these days). And generally people talking to each other. It is easy to spot a different accent, someone looking like they are lost. Ever tried finding your way in a city like Kyiv without a map? And better don't let anybody catch you constantly looking at one/your phone while you are supposed to be a local. Don't forget everybody is very, very attentive right now. People just going around without an apparent goal? Standing in small groups without a plan of what to do? Weird way of of greeting? All those things can get you caught. Especially once the fighting in urban environments has been going on for a day or two small groups of soldiers tend to settle in. They guard the same street/bridge/etc. for hours upon hours (and days upon days). Lots of time to get used to the usual coming and going. And in turn it is very obvious when something unusual happens. Just sit in a caffee for a day and watch people. Even after only one hours you have a pretty good grasp of the crowd and you start spotting different kinds of people. Just one look and you see if they are a student going to study (Bored). Or waiting for a date (Nervous). Or on the way to work (Exhausted). And while considering all that (And tons more) remember a saboteur has to fool hundreds of people during hundreds of small interactions during one day for days/weeks on end. He only has to slip up once to get caught.
99_00 5y ago
What legal rights and obligations does a military give to an enemy citizen who picks up a rifle and attacks when they are captured or surrender?
- GameOfFrowns 5y ago
  I'd think in this (and perhaps most) war(s) it comes down to the restraint, personal integrity or frustration of the individual soldier. Having just recently watched videos of (alleged) Russian saboteurs and infiltrators disguised in Ukrainian uniforms and GRADs shooting into residential areas, it appears Russia isn't above committing warcrimes even in these early stages of the invasion. Not even speaking about sending in Chechen troops whose foremost reputation is perpetrating warcrime.

359 points by martingoodson 5y ago

hbarka 5y ago

Supplies through a siege a logistical nightmare

biohax2015 5y ago
Through Poland would be my guess.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Slovakia, Hungary, and Romania are also NATO members bordering Ukraine. Lots of ways in and out.
barbazoo 5y ago
Possibly via any of the EU countries sharing a border with Ukraine i.e. Poland, Slovakia, Hungary or Romania. https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-countries/ https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/countries-in-europe/eu-coun...
jl6 5y ago
I’m wondering how supplying weapons is supposed to stay clear of Putin’s warning to other nations not to interfere or face instant consequences.
- sharpneli 5y ago
  Putin cannot really do much. West fully joining the war would mean nuclear exchange. But Puting ending the world due to weapons shipments? Very unlikely.
- e-clinton 5y ago
  What is Putin going to do? Bomb a NATO country? That won’t end well for him or anyone else.
  - SergeAx 5y ago
    Putin has a proxy - Belorussia, controlled by a same-type ageing dictator Lukashenko. He is doing a military mobilization right now and has borders with Poland and Baltic states.
    - einarfd 5y ago
      Belorussia attacking a NATO country ends at best in it being occupied by NATO, at worst in the same war between NATO and Russia that Putin don't want in the first place.
      - InitialLastName 5y ago
        This. A way worse result for Putin than Ukraine slowly becoming NATO-aligned is a sudden NATO-enforced regime change in his other (and currently reliable) European buffer state.
      - SergeAx 5y ago
        Belorussia is a member of Collective Security Treaty Organization (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_Organization https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_Security_Treaty_O...). Armenia is a member too, but Putin didn't help them in Nagorny Karabakh, saying it was Azerbaijan territory by international law. I beleive it was a demonstrative punishment for Armenian 2018 "velvet" revolution. Kazakhstan is a member too. Putin used his army in Kazakhstan in January after Tokaev said that protesters are supposedly foreign terrorists. Putin will not directly help Lukashenko against NATO countries on their territory, but is well capable of throwing his army to "protect" Belorussia from retaliation, including anti-air warfare.
- beefield 5y ago
  I don't think it is sensible at the moment to take into account what Putin says or has not said. It is obvious his words have no resemblance whatsoever to his actions. He does not need excuses to attack other countries.
- saiya-jin 5y ago
  Not intervening is a sure way to have delayed consequences from same aggressor, of same or worse manner. This isn't about Ukraine itself anymore, not with Russia/Soviet history of dominance, coercion, bullying and murder. Nothing has changed in the leadership, not for the better at least. I really don't get people who are naive about Putin. He is extremely clear in his communication about his goals and he just started yet another phase of realizing them. For those won't bother going through them - the goal is pre-1989 setup at least within Europe and near east. All the countries formerly enslaved by Russian communism in some form have very strong objections, and well the rest of free world seems to agree.
Mikeb85 5y ago
Airdrop it in Poland, Slovakia or Romania, drive it across the border.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
  So what happens when we try to airdrop something and an S-400 blows the plane out of the sky? Are we really going to expect that Russia will allow such interference? Would the West have allowed Russia to airdrop supplies to Iraq during the Iraq War in 2003.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    The countries I mentioned are NATO countries... If Putin attacks US planes over NATO airspace he'll have a bigger problem...
    - x86_64Ubuntu 5y ago
      Is Ukraine NATO airspace?

wslh 5y ago

Newer in HN: Urban warfare tips from a former Marine in the Ukraine subreddit: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30476658 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30476658

sullivanmatt 5y ago

Mirror https://web.archive.org/web/20220223141210/https://mwi.usma.edu/defending-the-city-an-overview-of-defensive-tactics-from-the-modern-history-of-urban-warfare/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220223141210/https://mwi.usma....

jonsty2023 5y ago

/s russian ddos attack

madengr 5y ago

Animats 5y ago

For how to attack a city, see "Urban Operations", the U.S. Army/USMC doctrinal publication.[1] The two documents view different kinds of war. The USMA pub describes historic WWII city defenses where the defenders held out against armor for long periods, at the cost of high casualties and destroying the city. That is, Stalingrad. The US doctrinal pub describes US-style modern wars of taking over a city without too much collateral damage, followed by "stability operations". That is, Baghdad. [1] https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452_ATP%203-06%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452...

dnadler 5y ago
There's also a good chapter on urban defense in there. Chapter 5
ivanhoe 5y ago
Whether you will have one or the other depends also a lot on the determination, preparedness and fire-power of the defenders. In Iraq majority was against Saddam and didn't really want to fight, while people in Ukraine cities seem to be very united and determined to defend every house, and also have been supplied with a lot of personal anti-armor weapons and had months to plan the defenses - so regardless of the Russian doctrine, I really doubt Russian army will be able to move fast this time... unfortunately, as you said, that means a lot more civilian casualties, and a lot more destruction...

deleted 5y ago

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mlinksva 5y ago

Interesting read. I guess it's self-evident, but not having thought about the topic, the utility of rubble and repurposing semi-destroyed structures, as well as how important snipers are, were new to me. Maybe the importance of snipers makes civilians being handed out guns in Kyiv now seem less futile. Would be interested to read a basic explainer along these lines on "How to Rebuild a City" -- I guess one divergence from urban planning/development literature would be on how to reuse rubble? Given the many destroyed cities through history including this century which have been at least partially reubilt (perhaps Grozny was first of this century?) I guess there must be plenty written on this topic.

ch4s3 5y ago
I read about the Lebanese civil war a few years ago and it was pretty eye opening. Urban warfare seems terrifying from the perspective of the attacker.
- gitfan86 5y ago
  If you are in a group and a sniper hits someone that isn't an instant kill, what do you do? Take cover and let them die, or run in the line of fire and try to help or try to find the sniper?
  - peakaboo 5y ago
    Snipers intentionally shoot to not kill sometimes, so they get more targets.
    - bluGill 5y ago
      That isn't allowed by the Geneva convention. It is very effective though, so I'm sure it is done.
      - vhgyu75e6u 5y ago
        You make it sound like it is intentionally done but if the shooter is far away/has poor accuracy and the soldier has body armor, chances are he will be incapacitated but not killed. After that the question is: is more morally ok to killed the downed soldier or wait for his unit who is still and active aggressor.

yosito 5y ago

What I'm wondering, with Russia being a nuclear power, what is Ukraine's end game? They seem to be doing a pretty good job of destroying invading force so far, but what's next? They either run out of steam defending, or they start to hit back at Russia, but then Russia could just unload a few nukes on them and be done with it. The West seems intent on not getting involved, and if they won't risk conflict now due to mutually assured destruction, they won't risk it after Russia uses nukes on Ukraine either. Is getting the Russian military to turn on Putin the only hope?

ceejayoz 5y ago
I think the end game is likely "make it costly enough to stay", so Russia makes a face-saving withdrawal on a "we successfully demilitarized Ukraine by getting rid of a lot of their military equipment" basis.
- lstodd 5y ago
  There no more is any face to save.
Teever 5y ago
Ukraine's endgame is to inflict so many casualties and destroy so much equipment that the Russians have no choice but to turn back in shame which along with sanctions from the rest of the world will hopefully lead to an uprising by the Russian people and an overthrow of Putin and his Oligarchs.
- xtian 5y ago
  Willing to put money on any of that?
  - tlear 5y ago
    Kyiv will fall. But Kyiv is not whole of Ukraine. West Ukraine hates russians a lot more, it has a long border with Polland. There is something like 1million Ukranians living in Polland.. there is already a stream of volunteers crossing the border heading east. Cost of Ukrainian occupation is going to be high. Can that stop russians? we don't know, but they will pay in blood and money. This is not Syria or Georgia where small professional units could make a difference. This is a huge country with a big population and a long border through which weapons and volunteers will flow. I had my doubts about Ukranian will to fight(I was born in Kyiv), I was wrong. I think Putin miscalculated quite a bit.

qnsi 5y ago

The article links to Army Doctrine. I am surprised to find it open to people outside of army. Does anyone perhaps know if there is resource like this for Army communication? I would be most interested in not combat communication where they have to give orders, but maybe where they have more time to share opinions down and up the hierarchy, maybe garher intel. I think it could be useful to management science, but havent found anyone trying to icorpate defense learnings into management

germinalphrase 5y ago
I would likewise be interested in communication systems that are social systems rather than tech systems (I.e. what do you do when phone/internet systems collapse?) Though I suppose that is probably only appropriate for an insurgency as you would have/use radio tech…
- littlestymaar 5y ago
  > I.e. what do you do when phone/internet systems collapse? I suspect the wired network in a city to be quite strong actually, since most of it is buried. For sure, you'd have lost connectivity to the rest of the world and internet, but setting-up a local telephone network using the copper wire network still standing doesn't sound that hard actually!
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    With the discontinuation of POTS, is the copper being used for some other purpose?
    - littlestymaar 5y ago
      I don't know about Ukraine specifically, but DSL is still really important in Europe.
mcguire 5y ago
You might poke around https://armypubs.army.mil/ https://armypubs.army.mil/ This kind of thing is scattered all over the place, but it's generally publicly available. How about https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN18314-ADP_6-0-000-WEB-3.pdf https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/ARN18314-ADP_6-... There are also https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/ https://www.marines.mil/News/Publications/

roveo 5y ago

Interesting, just yesterday I discussed with a friend of mine how dumb it is for Putin to attack and try to capture Kiev, because urban warfare is very difficult and usually leads to very heavy casualties. She asked "why?" and I realised that I have an intuitive understanding about this because I've played Call of Duty and she hasn't (obviously not saying that CoD is representative of actual war, but you get the idea of what a sniper or machine gun nest in a city is just from game mechanics). Things that are obvious for some people are absolutely not obvious for others. Btw, Pavlov's House defence is mentioned in the article and there's a corresponding mission in CoD.

structural 5y ago
You can look at CoD and similar games as being very basic introductory material to military ground operations - building a surprising amount of intuition from a young age. It's also useful as a propaganda & recruitment tool.
- Sporktacular 5y ago
  It has been sooo cringy watching gamers try analyse actual military operations with zero competence, self-awareness, humility or respect for what is really at stake.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - HideousKojima 5y ago
    Also CoD and Battlefield aren't going to teach real tactics. Arma is the closest you'll get to what "real" war is like, but even that mostly forgets that logistics is about 90% of winning a war.
    - Sporktacular 5y ago
      Not my point but...

jmyeet 5y ago

100% Putin is the bad guy here. There's no justification for invasion. None. That being said, we need to look at how we got here, maybe what should've happened instead and what can be done to hopefully defuse and resolve this situation. First, dangling the carrot of NATO membership, which because with George W Bush's swansong in a NATO summit in Bucharest in 2008 (and hasn't been changed by any subsequent administration) was dangerous and deliberately antagonistic to Russia. This was compounded by successive waves of expansion after the collapse of the Soviet Union, the entity NATO was supposedly created to defend against. Second, Zelensky seems out of his depth here (geopolitically) and should've realized this. The annexation of Crimea in 2014 should've raised the alarm bells here both that embracing to the West was dangerous and because of the threat of Russia unlikely to ever happen. This means another route needs to be paved. Third, outright refusing to take NATO membership off the negotiating table by the US (which, as noted, was never going to happen) was downright irresponsible and clueless, particularly when the US would never put troops into Ukraine and directly get into a military conflict with Russia. That alone should prompt a less hardline approach. This brings me to the substance of the article and a model that should've been pursued by the Ukrainian government. And that is one of neutrality, probably most similar to the Swiss model. This would include: 1. A consitutional amendment against joining any military alliance; 2. A consitutional amendment for military neutrality that might include, for example, not allowing passage by any foreign military without, say, the approval of both Russia and NATO; 3. National service, say 12 months. 4. A policy of building a defensive army. That means fixed military installations, particularly on entry points into Ukraine. It also means tactical rather than strategic weapons; 5. Equipping and training armed services in insurgency. Hardened communications, access to caches of small arms in the vent of invasion and access to weapons that have shown to be devastating against an occupying force (eg portable SAMs). 6. Exercises and planning for defending Ukraine against large outside military forces. The idea here isn't necessarily to win in such a conflict but to make the cost of victory and occupation so high as to deter it from happening. You would probably need additional steps to protect legitimate Russian economic interests, most specifically pipelines of oil and gas to the EU and deepwater port access to the Black Sea. As for disputed regions, you may need to adopt a model similar to, say, Nortern Ireland of joint control and semi-autonomy while still being with the borders of Ukraine.

5y ago

paganel 5y ago

It can be, relatively speaking, quite easy to defend a city, the Syrian rebels in East Aleppo became quite good at it pretty fast, the same goes for the rebels in the Damascus neighbourhood of Jobar (for this latter example I recommend this video [1], it gives a general idea of how it well went; bear in mind that it was filmed from the pov of the government forces). The problem is that the attacking force at some point realises that the defendants are pretty well dug in and the commanders of those attacking forces also realise that one of the few solutions available in order to achieve victory is to, almost quite literally, flatten the city. That's what happened in East Aleppo (with the help of the Russian airforce), that's what happened in Jobar, too. Not sure if the flattening of Kyiv would be the best thing for the Ukranian people going forward. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ZXPhmR7lQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ZXPhmR7lQ

squarefoot 5y ago
Flattening Kyiv is Putin's last resort: he can't retire and he can't drag things for too long, but should he give the order to level the city and reports would slip under the censorship to Russian people and the rest of the world, that would surely be the first day of his demise.
- baybal2 5y ago
  He is already doing it, just ran out of ammo. Russian ammo stockpiles are wast, but very old, and decrepit. Some literally date to WW2. In first 2 days, they used pretty much everything against city outskirts. You think Putin is afraid losing sleep? He already tried to bomb the Kiyv dam multiple times, he wants to destroy the city plainly, and simple. https://uacrisis.org/en/the-russian-occupiers-tried-to-blow-up-the-dam-of-the-kyiv-reservoir https://uacrisis.org/en/the-russian-occupiers-tried-to-blow-... If Kiyv dam is breached, it will flood the Zaporizhna nuclear plant.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    Where did you get this data about their ammo stockpiles? I'd love to believe it.

Avicebron 5y ago

I know two people in Ukraine who have received automatic weapons from the gov't...I do wonder how reasonable it is to arm untrained civilians. Turning someone without training into an armed combatant against an invading military seems like putting them directly in a high risk of being shot (as opposed to the lower risk of collateral casualty) EDIT: it's not my hill to die on, I just hope it's not theirs either

zttg 5y ago
People are dying there because of those weapons! Guess what criminals do when you can get automatic rifle for free? Do they fight against invaders?
amelius 5y ago
Also, how is this coordinated, and how do they prevent being shot at by their own people?
- op00to 5y ago
  They are trained by the local defense organization.
- peakaboo 5y ago
  It's a war. Normal rules to not apply. If you are ever in one, you will want a weapon, trust me.
  - Friday_ 5y ago
    ... there are some rules by Geneva convention This civilians with guns are now combatants. And must "carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war"
    - lazide 5y ago
      Lulz - that’s all well and good, except that gets paid mostly lip service even by the professional militaries, who are the ones who have the most to lose by not following the rules. Civilians do what they need to do to survive and protect their loved ones. If that means shivving a soldier in the back while pretending to be unarmed, so be it. Having guns is way better than civilians usually get.

squarefoot 5y ago

This is a war that is also fought online. It is extremely important to keep the flow of information running from Ukraine. Putin will very likely order to shut down cellphone coverage and the Internet in Ukraine as soon as they full enter Kyiv and he'll fear about reports of either mass killings among civilians and/or defeats among the Russian military; such information reaching both the world and Russian people is what he fears the most. Shutting down communications would be also a problem for keeping the resistance interconnected, as common analog walkie talkies wouldn't be an option for being easy to tap, and they essentially speak the same language. I wonder what can be done to quickly hand Ukrainians satellite Internet routers plus the infrastructure to build mesh stations and keep them connected.

tpmx 5y ago
I'm amazed they've managed to keep the country online for so long during this war. Points to solid groundwork since 2014. Vice PM of Ukraine: https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/1497543633293266944 https://twitter.com/FedorovMykhailo/status/14975436332932669... @elonmusk, while you try to colonize Mars — Russia try to occupy Ukraine! While your rockets successfully land from space — Russian rockets attack Ukrainian civil people! We ask you to provide Ukraine with Starlink stations and to address sane Russians to stand.
helge9210 5y ago
> Putin will very likely order to shut down cellphone coverage and the Internet in Ukraine It's easy to shut down internet in Belarus or Kazakhstan, because they deliberately wired their connectivity through single control point. Ukraine has multiple cross-border connections and exchange points within, so it's not just a press of a button, but a full blown min-cut max-flow adventure.

belter 5y ago

"Offense and Defense" https://web.archive.org/web/20220129201329/https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN18377_ADP%203-90%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220129201329/https://armypubs.... "Urban Operations" https://web.archive.org/web/20220120161007/https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN6452_ATP%203-06%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220120161007/https://armypubs.... "Combined Arms Operations in Urban Terrain" https://web.archive.org/web/20220214151137/https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog-ws/view/100.ATSC/14C757E0-F97D-48DC-BE09-F70CADFBC393-1315488976677/attp_3-06x11.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20220214151137/https://rdl.train...

Ambix 5y ago

What about the same advice for the citizens of Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan? Should they have fought for their liberty against US troops the same way?

jacobolus 5y ago
US troops have never invaded Iran. Maybe you are thinking of the 1980 Iraqi invasion? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_invasion_of_Iran The 1953 coup in Iran was organized/supported by the CIA, but did not involve US troops. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état During the 1979–1980 US embassy hostage crisis, there was an aborted attempt to rescue American hostages. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Curious honest question, has there ever been a successful urban attack in the past, say, 30 years, where the urban population by-and-large really doesn't want the attackers to be there? I mean, when I look at urban warfare, I think of the following possible outcomes: 1. Total annihilation, e.g. Warsaw at the end of WWII. 2. Splitting the city up into factional neighborhoods. Possible but given the situation in Kiev, there don't seem to be many Russian supporters there anong the native population (this is not true in Eastern Ukrainian cities) 3. Subduing the defenders and installing a puppet government. I think the best model here appears to be the Soviet Union crushing the 1956 Hungarian Revolution. #3 seems like the most obvious intention of Putin, but I just don't really see how that is possible in modern Kyiv. In 1956 Budapest there were plenty of Communist supporters - indeed, they were the ones in power before the revolution. The "best" outcome I can see from this war is that Putin completes the annexation of Luhansk and Donetsk, with possibly some other eastern regions e.g. a full land bridge from Crimea to Donetsk, as well as Kharkiv, but I just don't understand the attack on all of Ukraine. If anything you'll just get a further sorting of the country where everyone who despises Russia moves to the west and everyone else decides to stay/move to Russian-occupied areas.

chefkoch 5y ago
Aleppo?
cjbgkagh 5y ago
I’m confident the attack on the whole Ukraine is to prevent Western weapon supplied counter attacks. I doubt they have long term plans for occupation for the entire country.
- mcguire 5y ago
  When your enemy tells you what he is going to do, it is best, to a first order approximation, to believe him.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    Do you mean what they said or what others said that they said because unfortunately they are different and not enough people know that despite how easy it is to check?

b_emery 5y ago

Given the lead up to this, is there any evidence that the Ukranians have taken these kinds of measures?

terafo 5y ago
Yes. There is some footage from cities, but army asks people not to film their preparations so russian forces can't get intel from social networks.

eternalban 5y ago

John Spencer, 'Chair of Urban Warfare Studies, Modern War Institute', gives a twitter lecture to Ukrainians on urban warfare tactics to employ: https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1497583307504046087 https://twitter.com/SpencerGuard/status/1497583307504046087

gorgoiler 5y ago

What are the mechanisms used to flush out saboteurs? Some sort of explicit web of trust amongst locals? Automatic detention of loners?

Pius_IX 5y ago
All of those and lots more. There will be roadblocks with controls. Some kind of identification system among the military (Think codenames like in Band of Brothers, where they all use "Thunder!" and the response "Flash!" during D-Day but a little more sophisticated these days). And generally people talking to each other. It is easy to spot a different accent, someone looking like they are lost. Ever tried finding your way in a city like Kyiv without a map? And better don't let anybody catch you constantly looking at one/your phone while you are supposed to be a local. Don't forget everybody is very, very attentive right now. People just going around without an apparent goal? Standing in small groups without a plan of what to do? Weird way of of greeting? All those things can get you caught. Especially once the fighting in urban environments has been going on for a day or two small groups of soldiers tend to settle in. They guard the same street/bridge/etc. for hours upon hours (and days upon days). Lots of time to get used to the usual coming and going. And in turn it is very obvious when something unusual happens. Just sit in a caffee for a day and watch people. Even after only one hours you have a pretty good grasp of the crowd and you start spotting different kinds of people. Just one look and you see if they are a student going to study (Bored). Or waiting for a date (Nervous). Or on the way to work (Exhausted). And while considering all that (And tons more) remember a saboteur has to fool hundreds of people during hundreds of small interactions during one day for days/weeks on end. He only has to slip up once to get caught.

99_00 5y ago

What legal rights and obligations does a military give to an enemy citizen who picks up a rifle and attacks when they are captured or surrender?

GameOfFrowns 5y ago
I'd think in this (and perhaps most) war(s) it comes down to the restraint, personal integrity or frustration of the individual soldier. Having just recently watched videos of (alleged) Russian saboteurs and infiltrators disguised in Ukrainian uniforms and GRADs shooting into residential areas, it appears Russia isn't above committing warcrimes even in these early stages of the invasion. Not even speaking about sending in Chechen troops whose foremost reputation is perpetrating warcrime.