38 ms·

Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

351 points by zedpm 5y ago

obert 5y ago
Not sure why the article mentions Microsoft, or if Amazon really worries about them. MS salary is notoriously low compared to FANG, with talent often leaving only because of money, particularly in the Seattle area where Amazon HQ is, and SF/SV.
DaveExeter 5y ago
This is a nice step towards paying a living wage.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteered it anyway. I was always surprised at how effectively low their comp was in the first few years due to the vesting schedule. The internet is adamant that everyone with FAANG jobs is rolling in TC, but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. OTOH, the backloaded vesting system works. It was easy to hire people out of their first year at Amazon, but almost impossible to hire someone after a few years when the bulk of their vesting was right around the corner. I talked to a lot of people who admitted being miserable but felt they couldn’t leave until they got the equity that they had been toiling over for the past few years. Weird situation all around. We eventually reduced our recruiting out of that particular Amazon office because so many of the people coming out of it were deeply disgruntled with the tech industry in general. Really changed my view of Amazon.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels." And there are a lot of us who don't even get into FAANG and can't even dream of $160k, let alone $360k.
- aerovistae 5y ago
  What is TC?
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  - infamouscow 5y ago
    TC stands for total compensation - base salary, bonus, and equity.
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- yanslookup 5y ago
  This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the vesting gap for years. For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Is it possible that when folks were voluntarily disclosing comp they were just including base comp and not total comp?
  - avgDev 5y ago
    If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?
  - jakey_bakey 5y ago
    If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?
  - loeg 5y ago
    I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.
    - KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
      Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
      - loeg 5y ago
- sidewndr46 5y ago
  Have you considered there is a selection bias here? The people with low TC are the ones who want to leave.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Pretty much textbook abusive relationship. Get people feeling that they can't leave because of sunk cost and it's all going to be worth it soon, even though they're actively miserable.
  - spywaregorilla 5y ago
    That's the opposite of a sunk cost. That's a pending reward.
  - karmakurtisaani 5y ago
    I was thinking sunk cost as well, but I don't know if it applies here. Can you call it sunk cost if the thinking is "if I get through this day, it's one less day to the pay off" as opposed to "I've already put so much effort to this, I can't leave now!"?
  - bagels 5y ago
    It's actually better for leaving because the cash is paid monthly in the first couple years, and you don't have to wait for the next quarter or half or whatnot if you decide you want to leave.
- dymk 5y ago
  When the average tenure is 1.8 years, it certainly is working. That's nearly 50% of their tenure resulting in less than 20% of their equity vesting. The way Amazon does vesting is a scam for any engineer willing to work there, IMO. Big shiny number that they can dangle in front of engineers, and everybody thinks "Oh, sure I can do 4 years for that..."
  - banana-19 5y ago
    For SDEs median is closer to 2.2. But that just talks about those that are still there though. It doesn't show when those that are not quit.
  - AitchEmArsey 5y ago
    "Their equity" is the wrong way of thinking about it - the RSU schedule is fully visible up front, and in the first 2 years low RSU grants are offset by a sign-on bonus. In my case, I was told what my target TC per year was, and that is what I've received (at minimum), just made up of a varying mix of bonus and RSUs. Saying that un-vested RSUs are "mine" is like laying claim to next year's salary before having done any of the work to earn it.
    - bin_bash 5y ago
      I'm pretty sure every other big tech company offers sign on bonuses with an evenly distributed vesting schedule.
      - ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
        bin_bash 5y ago
        what a poor comment. What would've been nice if you could've explained what I'm missing. For the record I work at a different big tech company and was given a massive sign-on bonus. I also have received an offer from Amazon in the past. I know how to read levels.fyi so I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing exactly.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  What happens to those incentives if the fed increasing rates bumps the stockmarket back to flat or down for some time I wonder.
- deleted 5y ago
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- dehrmann 5y ago
  Someone since deleted this comment: > While the stock vests in year 3 and 4, you get an equivalent amount of cash in year 1 and 2. It’s not uncommon for that cash to be 6 figures, almost doubling your salary for the first two years. I wouldn’t call that a pittance. This was my experience ~8 years ago. There was an initial signing bonus, a retention bonus after a year, and then the RSUs start kicking in. The bonuses were prorated monthly. It was a little different than what other companies do, but it didn't feel unfair.
- AlwaysRock 5y ago
  I think an important point here is that Amazon is viewed as an easier interview to pass than other FAANG+ companies. Being able to go from 50K-100K as an entry level non faang engineer to 150K-200K+ is a massive jump for many people and a very big name on their resume. Its a lot of folks first faang job.
- hardolaf 5y ago
  FAANG was a coping mechanism for Amazon employees. It was always just FANG.
  - mrep 5y ago
    The original single A was for amazon: "FANG was an acronym coined by Jim Cramer, the television host of CNBC's Mad Money, in 2013 to refer to Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Google. Cramer called these companies "totally dominant in their markets" [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMAA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMA...
- trunnell 5y ago
  When I've recruited people somewhere within their multi-year vesting schedule, I've found that they absolutely hate the "golden handcuffs." It leads them to resent their employer and ultimately motivates them to leave. Delayed vesting is a terrible practice. Perhaps we'll see more companies offer immediate vesting of equity comp as a way to compete for talent. This is what Netflix does.
- kamaal 5y ago
  >>lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. A lot of FAANG down level you while hiring, that way they ensure you are basically at the same level even after a promotion(the next 4 - 5) years. Mandatory firing quotas, brutal performance standards(stack ranking included) and delayed vesting schedules effectively mean most won't make it to the big paydays. OTOH, those who are there for a few years, have survived through years of political darwinism inside the company have to an extent figured out the 'secret sauce', and are gradually climbing their way up. In these set ups, attrition is a feature for the long term employees, people who leave basically free up spaces in the ladder for others to take. No matter where you go you write software, so it doesn't really make much difference where you work at. On the other hand positions in the hierarchy no matter what the company are effectively pay grades and one must actively work on grabbing promotions. If you observe carefully job hoppers don't really make much in life. Quitting saps energy due to context switching, by the time you arrive at a good pay day you have already hopped to the next company. For the people who quit often, good days are always in the future. And real cheddar lies in grabbing assets and looking after your health as you age. Both demand relative stability to raise debt and spend time working on your body. That being the case the real winners are people who are doing long terms at companies, investing time learning political, investment and fitness skills.
caaqil 5y ago
About time, given the amount of horror stories coming out of The Forest. More money will definitely increase (at least to a certain extent) how much bullshit people are willing to put up with.
- AlexCoventry 5y ago
  Is The Forest just a play on the name Amazon, or is it a reference to some content about Amazon the company? It's hard to google for.
  - shadowtree 5y ago
    Amazon built a literal rainforest for their employees: https://www.seattlespheres.com/ https://www.seattlespheres.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2018/01/29/why-amazon-built-its-workers-a-mini-rainforest-inside-three-domes-in-downtown-seattle/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2018/01...
  - caaqil 5y ago
    > Is The Forest just a play on the name Amazon Yes.
    - pojzon 5y ago
      Im curious how long till words play will be the „Farm Land”
    - AlexCoventry 5y ago
      Thanks.
- neogodless 5y ago
  It's a horror game[0]. Never thought it was an allegory for Amazon, though. Unless you mean something else? [0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/242760/The_Forest/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/242760/The_Forest/
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xiphias2 5y ago
As a Googler I was approached by Amazon, and when I started to look at the culture, a photo came out with Jeff Bezos using a door because he was too ,,frugal’’ to buy a desk… I would never join an office where people are proud of that.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Amazon today and Amazon in 1996 are two different things.
  - xiphias2 5y ago
    It may be true, but the perception didn't change much (and the glassdoor scores are still bad). I love Amazon as a customer though
- strikelaserclaw 5y ago
  this the dude who just bought a 500mm yacht?
  - awestley 5y ago
    What is that? A yacht for ants?
    - hangonhn 5y ago
      The yacht has to be at least.... three times bigger than this!
  - whoomp12342 5y ago
    worth 500 million after he graced it with his presence. Its a repurposed shipping container
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Says a lot that they need to trot out an old photo to keep the myth alive.
darknavi 5y ago
As a low-ish level MSFT employee I laughed at this line: > The move promises to bring Amazon’s base pay more in line with other big tech companies, including Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft. As a ~62/63 (almost senior or senior) at Microsoft my peers at Facebook, Google, and Amazon can easily make literally twice as much compensation a year in salary, stock, and cash bonuses. Microsoft isn't even in the ballpark. If I didn't absolutely love my job there would be zero reason to stay at Microsoft.
- Someone1234 5y ago
  I always thought about MSFT as like working for the government: A somewhat boring, stable, 9-5, predictable workplace, but you're exchanging that for lower total compensation. But you can stay there for an actual career, family and all that. Whereas the more "fun" companies like Google/Facebook/Amazon will chew you up and spit you out, and you just have to make as much money as possible in your 20s/early 30s before you burn out. This could be a slightly unfair stereotyping of these companies, but from the people I've spoken to it rings true.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    > I always thought about MSFT as like working for the government: A somewhat boring, stable, 9-5, predictable workplace That obviously wasn't true in the 90s (see the famous Microserfs book), but might be true today, so I would argue against the "always" for those of us around then.
    - CSMastermind 5y ago
      To be clear: working at Microsoft is a hell of a lot better than working in government. You're generally fulfilled creatively and paid extremely well - at least in comparison to everywhere but the very top paying tech firms. What the commenter is saying is true though, Microsoft is a place where you can have an actual career and great work-life balance. It's been that way for at least a decade now.
      - 5y ago
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
I'm amazed both with the number of messages I get from Amazon about job openings and the aggressiveness of them. Add on how many are for ill fitting or basically Hail Mary type positions (During the height of the pandemic I got one wanting me to move to Ireland to work in an Amazon office there. They even acknowledged the oddness of the situation but they were really desperate for people to fill those roles). Seems like Amazon was blown through most of the labor supply and now can't find workers, not because they don't exist but because they don't want to work for Amazon. Doubt more money is going to fix this though perhaps pushing for more visas will let them get some workers who haven't been burnt by Amazon yet. Amazon simply has a bad culture which must be fixed. Even then, it'll take time to repair their reputation.
- joshgachnang 5y ago
  I get at least 5x the emails from Amazon as Google/Microsoft/Facebook. And lately I've told every single one until they have fully remote teams, I'm not interested and to stop emailing me. And yet almost every other week, a new one messages me.
- tdeck 5y ago
  > During the height of the pandemic I got one wanting me to move to Ireland to work in an Amazon office there. There's probably some engineer out there who's always wanted to live in Ireland. That said, I imagine if you're in the "hire to fire" bucket it would suck extra to be in anouther country with no job.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Amazon chickens coming home to roost.
- aantix 5y ago
  Agree. Looking at HN, Blind, Glassdoor, very rarely do I remember seeing an engineer that would openly state that they love working there.
  - Kranar 5y ago
paulvs 5y ago
Does this affect contractors, or just employees? This year, I noticed Amazon hires international contractors for engineering roles and I don't think I saw that before. I wonder if Amazon is opening up more roles internationally (via contractors), while increasing wages of employees to retain folks in US/Canada/etc. I don't have any data to back this idea up, it's just a thought.
- pyuser583 5y ago
  These things never apply to contractors.
_dain_ 5y ago
US tech salary discussions always throw around incomprehensibly large numbers and complain that they are "small"
- sdflhasjd 5y ago
  Yes, it's also a bit awkward with increasing inequality.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure a non-trivial amount of that is talk more than average reality. Which isn't to say that there aren't a bunch of people making a half million or more in total comp at a FAANG company, but there are almost certainly a whole lot more quiet people making 100-200K who aren't going to brag on HN about it.
  - _dain_ 5y ago
    100-200k is incomprehensibly large for me
    - f6v 5y ago
      You realize that’s before taxes, right?
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
        You realize that it's incomprehensibly high in most of the countries in the world regardless of how it's taxed?
        rootusrootus 5y ago
        I don't think it's quite that simple. Cost of living has to be factored in, at least. Buying a bog standard middle class house in my city is $850K. And this isn't California, obviously.
dymk 5y ago
My understanding (from friends who have interviewed at Amazon and received offers) is that they are offered a $160k base... plus a $XXX bonus (guaranteed?) every year, to get their cash comp competitive with all the other tech companies. So while this might indeed result in pay bumps, I highly doubt the bumps will be very large. This is also a "simplify how we do offers" thing.
amf12 5y ago
I guess this only changes the stable salary component, which will bring the first year's comp to more comparable levels. Amazon pays an insane amount of cash bonus the first two years to make up for their backloaded vesting and capped salary. Even then the total compensation was pretty high. It might be the case that their stock isn't growing as expected leading to employees to be unhappy.
stephenboyd 5y ago
Now let’s see if they can give more than 10 PTO days
- cheeze 5y ago
  Uh, what? At least when I worked there in Seattle, I got 48 hours of personal time, a few days of sick time, and a month of PTO every year. Granted, my managers never cared about what I used (personal==sick==pto, use whatever) and I rarely actually recorded vacation.
  - malfist 5y ago
    That's not their official policy IIRC. It's 10 vacation days for your first year, 15 after that. And 6 days of sick time. There's lots of leeway for your manager not to enforce it though.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Do they tend to let you take unpaid time off or is that not a thing at all?
- kyawzazaw 5y ago
  New grads get 15 days, no?
davidw 5y ago
Pre-pandemic, I occasionally got some recruiter email from them and they were always really insistent about relocating to the Seattle area (something I wanted to do about as much as I want a hole in the head). Makes me wonder if they've done a good job with their remote culture.
_trackno5 5y ago
Finally Amazon is realising their trash comp won't get them any hires in the current market. They were not even close to being competitive with other FAANG before. Couple that with the bad culture and I'm sure they were feeling the pressure to get new hires.
- lbriner 5y ago
  Trash comp? You might be talking about FAANG companies but very few Devs (maybe London) in the UK would get close to $160K, let alone $350K. They might want to attract talent but I suspect there are diminishing returns after a while, you only have to look at Amazon music App, Amazon web site, GMail and the Netflix app on my smart TV to realise they are not releasing good stuff all the time.
  - clerk_occam 5y ago
    This is mostly for US, particularly in the Bay Area. There, fresh grads (SDE1s) are making $175k total comp, with $133,500 base salary. The base hardly increased for higher levels (SDE2/SDE3) before today, only being able to rise $26,500 before hitting the old cap.
  - pojzon 5y ago
    You also have to look at how much $$ is printed year to year and how much inflation hit IT sector. After finally deciding to switch jobs I got twice the salary of previous employer when I hoped Ill get 20-30%. Market is not catching up to goverments pomping out new taxes and inflation.
  - _trackno5 5y ago
    Not necessarily FAANG, but even unicorns pay more than them. I got better offers from Bloomberg, Reddit, Stripe, and Facebook. Amazon also backloads the equity. You get barely anything if you leave after 2 years.
  - mciancia 5y ago
    Don't worry, it's not like Amazon is paying like that in the UK ;] US market is kinda special thanks to high concentration of tech companies in SV behind great wall made of Visas/greencard lotteries
wiskinator 5y ago
What's a 'maximum base' pay? Is that the max salary someone with the right credentials could earn in an entry level position?
- hamburglar 5y ago
  It’s the max salary rate for a given level according to company policies. Once you hit this, no matter how well you do they’ll try to tell you you can’t get a raise unless you get a promotion. Of course, this matters little since they will be shoveling RSUs at you if they want to keep you.
  - hamburglar 5y ago
    Oh yeah, and mirroring other comments, this is the max base for the highest level in this case, so it is the max max. And also it’s never really true that they can’t exceed it. Everything is negotiable if you’re hot enough shit.
- pavlov 5y ago
  No, it's the maximum base pay for all positions. Beyond entry level, most of the compensation at Amazon and other FAANGs is in the form of stock awards (RSUs). So a senior engineer might have a $160k annual salary and $300k worth of RSUs vesting that year, making for $460k total compensation. In an environment of rising stock prices, this is a cost-effective way for a large company to pay high salaries because the stock that's worth $300k today was only worth, say, $150k when it was originally granted, and that's the price that Amazon effectively paid in its earnings deductions at that time.
- argc 5y ago
  No, its just the maximum cash base that amazon will pay anyone, at any level (perhaps without a VP approval, or something). RSU's and cash bonuses are not included, so it does not reflect total comp. E.g. someone might have 160k base and 500k total comp, including their RSUs.
- darknavi 5y ago
  Previously you could not make more than ~$160k in salary at Amazon at any level. Now they are raising the cap.
faangiq 5y ago
Likely a scam. Don’t expect any raises from this.
- hemloc_io 5y ago
  Hmm what do you mean? They announced the numbers, before perf season even started. Everyone is going to be asking can I get ~350k? Base salary before was half that...
sydthrowaway 5y ago
So the base pay was 185, now 350k Doesn't really make much difference, unless you were hiring finance bros. The total comp is what mattered.
- petilon 5y ago
  > The total comp is what mattered. Assuming you're going to stay at Amazon for a long time, yes, total comp is what matters. If not then base pay matters because you don't get to keep most of the stock if you leave after a year or two. Amazon's vesting schedule is pretty bad. Just 5% at the end of year 1! https://avieradvisors.com/amazon/amazons-rsu/ https://avieradvisors.com/amazon/amazons-rsu/
  - sydthrowaway 5y ago
    The signing bonus already remediated that.
- mrep 5y ago
  Not entirely, RSUs are harder to use when qualifying for a mortgage.
  - grogers 5y ago
    Wouldn't you just show your N most recent W2s to your bank? Why would they care about your comp breakdown?
    - mrep 5y ago
      Not for US mortgages, here is what my mortgage broker sent me as a requirement for the second home I am looking to buy: OK – we can use the RSU’s with the following conditions: Your borrower will need to have a 2-year history of liquidating the RSU account and evidence the RSUs are received as part of the borrower's regular income. Fannie Mae requires you obtain the issuance agreement, schedule of share distributions, vesting schedule, evidence the stock is publicly traded, and evidence of payout of the RSU per YTD paystub and W-2s for the most recent 2 years. Freddie Mac requires the same in addition to a 10-day PCV. The income will be required to continue for a minimum of 3 years. If you can get me these items highlighted above, I will send to Underwriting for them to calculate the income and get us a valid number to use for qualifying.
ngcazz 5y ago
whilst warehouse workers earn what...
wdb 5y ago
Why don't they raise the salaries of the Amazon delivery and order pickers instead?
- inoop 5y ago
  They are: https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-starting-pay-18-an-hour-it-hires-125000-more-logistics-2021-09-14 https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star...
  - wdb 5y ago
    Pretty weak raise compared to what the these people getting with base pay of $350k
- tdhoot 5y ago
  How would that help if they're having trouble hiring or retaining software engineers?
jdlyga 5y ago
Wow, if 350k is what they raised it to then what was it before? I thought Amazon engineers were rolling in money compared to non-FAANGs.
- deleted 5y ago
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- wging 5y ago
  That's all in the article. First sentence: "Amazon will boost its maximum base pay to $350,000 for corporate and tech employees, from $160,000 previously". Amazon's compensation has historically been very RSU-heavy (aka, you are partly paid in stock), especially at higher levels.
- darkstar999 5y ago
  The answer is in the first sentence of the article.
- valbaca 5y ago
  $160k It's literally the first sentence of the article "Amazon will boost its maximum base pay to $350,000 for corporate and tech employees, from $160,000 previously, as part of an overall increase in total compensation intended to help recruit top talent and retain existing employees."
- dewski 5y ago
  The first sentence of article stated it was $160,000.
lhorie 5y ago
Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be at a point where it really needs to try everything under the sun to try to attract talent, given their extremely poor reputation. With this said, from reading the article, this move seems reminiscent of Netflix's pay structure, in the sense of offering a higher cash portion but lower equity. Some people here already mentioned that this was already sort of the case with a sign on bonus compensating for the backloaded vesting structure. From my experience interacting w/ professionals outside the FANG bubble, equity tends to be a bit confusing, so I wonder if a move towards bigger cash portions is a way to try to lure people who wouldn't otherwise be looking at big tech as a prospective career choice. What's also curious to me is that bumping up cash comp is in direct opposition to the trends from some other tech giants, where they are frontloading equity vesting. My sample size might just be small, but it feels like cash comp seems to correlate somewhat with bearish stock feeling and that frontloaded equity tends to correlate w/ bullish stock feeling. Would love to hear whether I'm off the mark here or not.
- pishpash 5y ago
  At these bubble valuations and Fed funds rate going up I would hope cash is valued more.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. A company so large as to literally run out of humans. Happened with their warehouse workers too. https://www.essence.com/news/amazon-burning-through-workers/ https://www.essence.com/news/amazon-burning-through-workers/
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > A company so large as to literally run out of humans It's not the size, its the attrition that's the problem. Everything would be fine if they retained employees, but stackranks for the stackrank god.
gregdoesit 5y ago
I’ve been talking to close to a dozen current and former Amazon employees since the end of 2021, and reached out to people publicly sharing attrition observations. Amazon attrition is really bad, even in AWS (Amazon employees all agree that AWS is a much better place to work in tech than Amazon retail). At the same time, Amazon has had to pay very high for new hires. Hiring managers used to need to get L10 approval to go out of bands on offers outside bands, but starting late 2021, they could go out of bands up to ~20% higher with no approvals. To top all of this, Amazon has a 6% internal URA (non-regretted attrition) target: something that has been in place for close to a decade. The Amazon Music group revolted late 2021 as reported by the Big Technology publication in-depth [1] as they didn't have 6% of people to fire, at the very time when they could not hire. Yet they were forced to hit this URA target, just like all other orgs in Amazon. Apparently this “rebellion email” leaked across the company and is sparking Amazon-wide outrage, and adds fuel to the fire. Amazon has been extremely frugal for the skillset they hire for, very demanding and have created a stressful workplace. They still force 6% of engineers to be fired, even when their own leadership opposes this (Amazon Music). I wonder why they can’t hire. Also, why is Amazon still part of the FANG abbreviation when they have this culture across many of their organisations? [1] https://bigtechnology.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=substack_profile https://bigtechnology.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_...
- foobarian 5y ago
  > To top all of this, Amazon has a 6% internal URA So that's where all the Microsoft stack-ranking hawks went!
- Tempest1981 5y ago
  Your link took me to the home page. Is this the story? https://bigtechnology.substack.com/p/standing-up-for-us-plebs-amazon-leaders https://bigtechnology.substack.com/p/standing-up-for-us-pleb...
  - gregdoesit 5y ago
    Yes, this is the one I meant to link. I can no longer edit my comment, unfortunately.
mathattack 5y ago
Their recruiting process is very onerous too. Very hard to get people who are well paid to even interview when they know it’s so much work, only to get a pay cut.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  This is an interesting point. Do you the total rounds/average expect time to complete the loop. I agree if I'm looking and someone makes the interview process quick that interest will make me more likely to join.
  - coredog64 5y ago
    The full in-person loop is 5 60 minute sessions. Maybe another hour for the initial phone screen.
    - mathattack 5y ago
      My experience with Amazon was many rounds, several encouraged “coaching” sessions, and a suggestion that I come up with 2-3 anecdotes relating to each of the 14 values. That’s a big ask to take a pay cut.
- bootwoot 5y ago
  It seems in line with competing companies.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
This is just an element of normalizing Amazon comp practices versus the rest of the industry, really, right?
OnionBlender 5y ago
I haven't done any interviews since before covid. What resources do people suggest reading in order to prepare? I'm familiar with leetcode but I'm wondering what books I should read besides Cracking the Coding Interview.
jl2718 5y ago
Or they are pushing more compensation into cash because cash is a lot cheaper for them than equity. What I mean by that is that they have almost unlimited borrowing capacity at near-zero rates, versus a fixed amount of equity, and as long as the equity keeps growing, the cash pool grows with it. If the employees want to then purchase the equity, then that is upward pressure on the price, versus downward pressure on the price when an employee sells equity for cash.
- tdhoot 5y ago
  In theory it's all fungible and doesn't work this way. If it did, they would just take out a loan and buyback their stock and skip all the extra steps.
etempleton 5y ago
This is good news for tech workers, but the income disparity between Amazon tech workers and Amazon warehouse/delivery workers is absolutely obscene. Understandably, skilled vs unskilled labor, and supply and demand, and all that, but as Jon Stewart recently recounted telling Jeff Bezos at a dinner party, “sounds like a recipe for a revolution.”
- abletonlive 5y ago
  not only skilled vs unskilled labor. but an engineer can produce a system which generates millions of revenue a day. a warehouse worker, cannot scale this way.
  - etempleton 5y ago
    This is very true, but at some point you need to value people at a base level. Warehouse work is grueling and you can easily get hurt. 16 /hr, which is the base of an Amazon warehouse worker, is below a livable wage w/o kids in much of the country. There is what you can get away with and what is right. At some point you just have to do what is right.
    - belval 5y ago
      Not commenting on the substance of your comment, but seems like they hiked it to 18$/hr? https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-starting-pay-18-an-hour-it-hires-125000-more-logistics-2021-09-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star...
- bagacrap 5y ago
  it seems like learning how to code would be easier than overthrowing the govt (at least it did to me back before I had any skills)
  - etempleton 5y ago
    Not everyone can learn to code at a high level for one reason or another. They should still be able to feed and house their family if gainfully employed full time.
MuffinFlavored 5y ago
Will Amazon at any point start considering hiring more engineers from countries that command lesser salaries like Brazil/EU than they do US engineers? Why do US engineers command such higher salaries?
- rybosworld 5y ago
  European labor laws are a major factor. It's much harder to fire people and a company like Amazon loves to fire people. I imagine Brazil doesn't have enough of a talent pool to draw from.
  - mihaigalos 5y ago
    > European labor laws are a major factor. It's much harder to fire people and a company like Amazon loves to fire people. Not sure why I keep reading this over and over. Yes, it can take up to 6 months to fire somebody here in Europe (usually 1-3 months though). The 6 months is usually for >15 years of uninterrupted work with the same company. Justifying that "the company cannot easily fire because of labor laws" is just plain wrong. If the 250k+$ jobs I'm constantly reading about are actually true, it's double the average that I've ever heard about for any type of Senior SW Devs in most competitive / innovative centers in the EU. 350k$ more so. Stocks are not even part of the TC. In most EU countries, SW Devs make about 50-60k€ as juniors. To reiterate, the math doesn't add up, so the argument must be talent, not laws.
    - ehaughee 5y ago
      Speaking only for my own org's stated goals, they try to hire within the same timezone or close-by. So South America, for a west coast team, would theoretically work but Europe would be a tougher sell. Amazon also hasn't historically done a lot of remote work (as far as I've seen anyway) so, pre-COVID, an office would likely need to exist in a given area.
    - Hakashiro 5y ago
      I'm also pissed off when I see HN people seeing 200k or 300k salaries as "too low". Jesus, Americans are millionaires, what the hell?! I'll tell you the reason: they do this because they can. It's not talent, it's competition. Who in EU is going to give you even 80k as a junior? Nobody. So why bother offering 300k or even 150k when people will take the tole for 60 or 70k? Inb4 "but housing is more affordable!" Whatever. That's not related to the employer. It's simply racist. "You earn less because you're European" is the truth. It's not because cost of living is lower (although it's related) but it's just a matter of employers being able to get away with shitty pay.
amotinga 5y ago
2 things why I dont bother interviewing: 1. very difficult long interview that I most likely won't pass 2. I only want to work remotely. driving every day few hours back and forth is very expensive in many ways. When something changes about those I will think about it.
- kyawzazaw 5y ago
  Amazon has remote roles
newobj 5y ago
LOL only took them ... forever ... I left Amazon ~7 years ago to go to FB because my base FB pay was higher than my Amazon total comp. Nevermind FB RSUs ... LOL
yoelo 5y ago
They should do this to warehouse workers instead who deserve it way more
ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 5y ago
I get contacted by Amazon recruiters multiple times a week. Now that I'm actively looking for a job, I thought I'd give them a chance. It would be good interview practice at the very least. So I take the online assessment and it turns out that one of the questions was a LeetCode Hard. Like... what? Did they want me to fail?
deltaonefour 5y ago
Ok. amazon has a high attrition rate because of it's culture. Making the pay higher won't necessarily fix that. Does ANYONE in amazon see culture changes occurring at all? I'm willing to respond to the 5 recruiters contacting me BUT only if there is a huge drive to change culture as well.
- DesiLurker 5y ago
  plus that high pay looks just like a bait to me. you still have to survive brutal (& I mean Brutal) annual reviews for entire duration and also not get PIPed in the process. getting piped for a bullshit reason really sucks, I have never been but have closely seen it happen. to answer the original question, nope, I have not seen any evidence of culture change, source: a close friend joined & left in a year.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    Well, this uptick I've seen only in the last couple months so I'm wondering is there a culture change or impetus for culture change that occurred within the last month or couple months or so? I think it's unlikely and that you're probably most likely right, but I want to fish out some comments from people in amazon who know what's going on.
- belval 5y ago
  Disclaimer: I work at AWS. I see comments about the culture a lot and I feel the need to chime in and say that it's not actually bad? At least in my team, the work life balance is fine, my manager is great and the projects are interesting. Not saying that it's the same for every SDE, but some of the stories you read online make it seem like they shackle you to your desk and PIP you into submission.
  - deltaonefour 5y ago
    What about during review season where someone on your team MUST get pipped? I know that there are teams that are doing well. But if one person or more on your team gets pipped every year something is wrong...
banana-19 5y ago
My Amazon salary history, to anchor some of this story better: - Joined early early 2017 as an L5 hire (no previous FANG experience, but 10+ elsewhere) with an an offer of base $145K, sign on of $50K year 1, $38K year 2, 150 RSUs (AMZN worth ~$850 = 127500). Vesting schedule: 5% @ 1y, 15% @ 2y, 20% @ 2.5y, 20% @ 3y, 20% @ 3.5y, 20% @ 4y. - Negotiated without competing offers a bump to $150K base, $60K / $45K cash, 162 RSUs. - A breakdown based on Amazon's 15% stock aprecciation YOY gives you Amazon's Total Compensation Target. This is Amazon's projection assuming that you perform at the middle of the expectation of your cohort in the yearly performance review (OLR, not forte as the article states) - year 1 (8 RSUs): $150K base + $60K cash + 8 * $850 * 1.15 = $218K - year 2 (24 RSUs): $150K base + $46K cash + 24 * $850 * 1.15^2 = $223K - year 3 (32 + 33 RSUs): $150K base + (32 * $850 * 1.15^2.5) + (33 * $850 * 1.15^3) = $231K - year 4 (32 + 33 RSUs): $150K base + (32 * $850 * 1.15^3.5) + (33 * $850 * 1.15^4) = $243K - Actual salary - year 1 (AMZN @ $1430) = $221K. OLR bumped base salary for next year to $157K - year 2 (AMZN @ $1844) = $247K. OLR bumped base salary for next year to $160K. No stock grant as projected salary > comp target - year 3 (AMZN @ $1767, $2307) = $292K. Granted 18 RSUs to vest at year 4.5 and year 5 - year 4 (AMZN @ $3338, $3379) = $378K - year 5 (AMZN @ $3409, $3400?) = $221K - Notes - due to manager / life reasons, didn't progress beyond L5. If I were to pursue this this year, my comp adjustment would have come about a year after starting at that level (but only to the lower end of the L6 band ~ $250K). $30K for a tonne more work seems rather stupid. - note the golden handcuffs as well as that huge cliff - some of the above is intentionally inaccurate (but not by a huge amount)
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Seems like it would be a lot better to realize you have a problem with management if your base (developers in this case) can't be retained or evidently bribed. Something is clearly broken in their organization, I mean holy shit 350k???
- cheeze 5y ago
  In my opinion, not really. Amazon management is far from great, that being said it's more that a developer that can "get into" Amazon can go elsewhere and make way more. FB is paying like, double of many of my friends at Amz right now and moving there is pretty easy. Goog is a bit less but still the same magnitude/ballpark. You can call raising pay a bribe, but isn't that what work is? I mean shit, I wouldn't do my job if I didn't get paid for it. I have way more interesting hobbies than that... In that sense, is everything a bribe? I feel like those words don't really mean anything. The increase isn't "we're paying all of our devs 350k tomorrow", it's "we can raise your salary up to 350, whereas before it was limited to 160"
belval 5y ago
I think this is a good move. The compensation structure of Amazon (max $160k, rest is RSUs) made sense when the company delivered stock value growth each year. It felt startup-esque. The issue is that the stock performance has been unimpressive for several years now, which means that a lot of higher-ups and older employees were seeing their compensation become significantly below market-rate and would, as one expect, leave. To give people here an idea, my RSUs lost ~4% in value since I've been at Amazon (more than a year). This is perfectly fine if there's an expectation that the RSUs are a "bonus", it's not fine if you need it to go up 10-15% for your TC to match Microsoft.
nojito 5y ago
Now is the perfect time to move to amazon as an experienced corp manager. Your take home will easily exceed $1m which will help you gain a nice bump if you choose to move elsewhere in 18 months or so.
internetting3 5y ago
More stocks are actually favorable over cash to avoid Medicare and SS taxes which are approximately 15%. To me, this seems like a strategy to counter the volatility in the stock market and it gives Amazon a way to exit equity based employee retention.
- kyawzazaw 5y ago
  Aren’t RSU taxed as income tax anyways?
- tfehring 5y ago
  RSUs are still subject to FICA taxes, see e.g. [0] and [1]. Also, most tech workers are above the income limit for Social Security taxes, so their marginal payroll tax rate is only 2.9%. [0] https://www.foley.com/en/insights/publications/2020/08/restricted-stock-units-10-fast-facts https://www.foley.com/en/insights/publications/2020/08/restr... [1] https://www.mayerbrown.com/en/perspectives-events/blogs/2020/08/irs-updates-guidance-on-timing-of-wage-and-fica-withholding-for-stock-options-and-rsus https://www.mayerbrown.com/en/perspectives-events/blogs/2020...
toslimuddinbd 5y ago
[flagged]

351 points by zedpm 5y ago

Not sure why the article mentions Microsoft, or if Amazon really worries about them. MS salary is notoriously low compared to FANG, with talent often leaving only because of money, particularly in the Seattle area where Amazon HQ is, and SF/SV.

DaveExeter 5y ago

This is a nice step towards paying a living wage.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

We had an office near an Amazon office. I interviewed a lot of people trying to leave Amazon. I don’t ask candidate’s compensation, but a lot of them volunteered it anyway. I was always surprised at how effectively low their comp was in the first few years due to the vesting schedule. The internet is adamant that everyone with FAANG jobs is rolling in TC, but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. OTOH, the backloaded vesting system works. It was easy to hire people out of their first year at Amazon, but almost impossible to hire someone after a few years when the bulk of their vesting was right around the corner. I talked to a lot of people who admitted being miserable but felt they couldn’t leave until they got the equity that they had been toiling over for the past few years. Weird situation all around. We eventually reduced our recruiting out of that particular Amazon office because so many of the people coming out of it were deeply disgruntled with the tech industry in general. Really changed my view of Amazon.

giantg2 5y ago
"but there are a lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels." And there are a lot of us who don't even get into FAANG and can't even dream of $160k, let alone $360k.
aerovistae 5y ago
What is TC?
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- infamouscow 5y ago
  TC stands for total compensation - base salary, bonus, and equity.
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yanslookup 5y ago
This doesn't match my experience. I guess it depends on the role but for engineers it's well known Amazon has been throwing large sign on bonuses to close the vesting gap for years. For instance I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. Second year was a slightly smaller bonus, and 15% of my RSUs. Is it possible that when folks were voluntarily disclosing comp they were just including base comp and not total comp?
- avgDev 5y ago
  If you don't mind me asking what is your experience level?
- jakey_bakey 5y ago
  If you're gunning for a job why would you want to represent your comp as lower?
- loeg 5y ago
  I’ve had a similar experience, albeit with lower TC numbers. The RSUs were backloaded, but there were big cash grants for years 1 and 2 that flattened it out somewhat. Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices.
  - KKKKkkkk1 5y ago
    Another thing to keep in mind is that Amazon values their stock grants as if it grows 15% every year. Obviously this is pretty optimistic and makes their offers not directly comparable to other companies that value their stock using current prices. They're easily comparable because current prices incorporate all publicly available information (and even some non-public). If you accept the 15% assumption, you're letting them hoodwink you.
    - loeg 5y ago
sidewndr46 5y ago
Have you considered there is a selection bias here? The people with low TC are the ones who want to leave.
anonporridge 5y ago
Pretty much textbook abusive relationship. Get people feeling that they can't leave because of sunk cost and it's all going to be worth it soon, even though they're actively miserable.
- spywaregorilla 5y ago
  That's the opposite of a sunk cost. That's a pending reward.
- karmakurtisaani 5y ago
  I was thinking sunk cost as well, but I don't know if it applies here. Can you call it sunk cost if the thinking is "if I get through this day, it's one less day to the pay off" as opposed to "I've already put so much effort to this, I can't leave now!"?
- bagels 5y ago
  It's actually better for leaving because the cash is paid monthly in the first couple years, and you don't have to wait for the next quarter or half or whatnot if you decide you want to leave.
dymk 5y ago
When the average tenure is 1.8 years, it certainly is working. That's nearly 50% of their tenure resulting in less than 20% of their equity vesting. The way Amazon does vesting is a scam for any engineer willing to work there, IMO. Big shiny number that they can dangle in front of engineers, and everybody thinks "Oh, sure I can do 4 years for that..."
- banana-19 5y ago
  For SDEs median is closer to 2.2. But that just talks about those that are still there though. It doesn't show when those that are not quit.
- AitchEmArsey 5y ago
  "Their equity" is the wrong way of thinking about it - the RSU schedule is fully visible up front, and in the first 2 years low RSU grants are offset by a sign-on bonus. In my case, I was told what my target TC per year was, and that is what I've received (at minimum), just made up of a varying mix of bonus and RSUs. Saying that un-vested RSUs are "mine" is like laying claim to next year's salary before having done any of the work to earn it.
  - bin_bash 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure every other big tech company offers sign on bonuses with an evenly distributed vesting schedule.
    - ldjkfkdsjnv 5y ago
      - bin_bash 5y ago
        what a poor comment. What would've been nice if you could've explained what I'm missing. For the record I work at a different big tech company and was given a massive sign-on bonus. I also have received an offer from Amazon in the past. I know how to read levels.fyi so I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing exactly.
dv_dt 5y ago
What happens to those incentives if the fed increasing rates bumps the stockmarket back to flat or down for some time I wonder.
deleted 5y ago
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dehrmann 5y ago
Someone since deleted this comment: > While the stock vests in year 3 and 4, you get an equivalent amount of cash in year 1 and 2. It’s not uncommon for that cash to be 6 figures, almost doubling your salary for the first two years. I wouldn’t call that a pittance. This was my experience ~8 years ago. There was an initial signing bonus, a retention bonus after a year, and then the RSUs start kicking in. The bonuses were prorated monthly. It was a little different than what other companies do, but it didn't feel unfair.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
I think an important point here is that Amazon is viewed as an easier interview to pass than other FAANG+ companies. Being able to go from 50K-100K as an entry level non faang engineer to 150K-200K+ is a massive jump for many people and a very big name on their resume. Its a lot of folks first faang job.
hardolaf 5y ago
FAANG was a coping mechanism for Amazon employees. It was always just FANG.
- mrep 5y ago
  The original single A was for amazon: "FANG was an acronym coined by Jim Cramer, the television host of CNBC's Mad Money, in 2013 to refer to Facebook, Amazon, Netflix, and Google. Cramer called these companies "totally dominant in their markets" [0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMAA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Tech#FANG,_FAANG,_and_MAMA...
trunnell 5y ago
When I've recruited people somewhere within their multi-year vesting schedule, I've found that they absolutely hate the "golden handcuffs." It leads them to resent their employer and ultimately motivates them to leave. Delayed vesting is a terrible practice. Perhaps we'll see more companies offer immediate vesting of equity comp as a way to compete for talent. This is what Netflix does.
kamaal 5y ago
>>lot of people out there who are getting into FAANG companies (especially Amazon) at lower compensations with the hopes of moving up to those higher levels. A lot of FAANG down level you while hiring, that way they ensure you are basically at the same level even after a promotion(the next 4 - 5) years. Mandatory firing quotas, brutal performance standards(stack ranking included) and delayed vesting schedules effectively mean most won't make it to the big paydays. OTOH, those who are there for a few years, have survived through years of political darwinism inside the company have to an extent figured out the 'secret sauce', and are gradually climbing their way up. In these set ups, attrition is a feature for the long term employees, people who leave basically free up spaces in the ladder for others to take. No matter where you go you write software, so it doesn't really make much difference where you work at. On the other hand positions in the hierarchy no matter what the company are effectively pay grades and one must actively work on grabbing promotions. If you observe carefully job hoppers don't really make much in life. Quitting saps energy due to context switching, by the time you arrive at a good pay day you have already hopped to the next company. For the people who quit often, good days are always in the future. And real cheddar lies in grabbing assets and looking after your health as you age. Both demand relative stability to raise debt and spend time working on your body. That being the case the real winners are people who are doing long terms at companies, investing time learning political, investment and fitness skills.

caaqil 5y ago

About time, given the amount of horror stories coming out of The Forest. More money will definitely increase (at least to a certain extent) how much bullshit people are willing to put up with.

AlexCoventry 5y ago
Is The Forest just a play on the name Amazon, or is it a reference to some content about Amazon the company? It's hard to google for.
- shadowtree 5y ago
  Amazon built a literal rainforest for their employees: https://www.seattlespheres.com/ https://www.seattlespheres.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2018/01/29/why-amazon-built-its-workers-a-mini-rainforest-inside-three-domes-in-downtown-seattle/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2018/01...
- caaqil 5y ago
  > Is The Forest just a play on the name Amazon Yes.
  - pojzon 5y ago
    Im curious how long till words play will be the „Farm Land”
  - AlexCoventry 5y ago
    Thanks.
neogodless 5y ago
It's a horror game[0]. Never thought it was an allegory for Amazon, though. Unless you mean something else? [0] https://store.steampowered.com/app/242760/The_Forest/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/242760/The_Forest/

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xiphias2 5y ago

As a Googler I was approached by Amazon, and when I started to look at the culture, a photo came out with Jeff Bezos using a door because he was too ,,frugal’’ to buy a desk… I would never join an office where people are proud of that.

missedthecue 5y ago
Amazon today and Amazon in 1996 are two different things.
- xiphias2 5y ago
  It may be true, but the perception didn't change much (and the glassdoor scores are still bad). I love Amazon as a customer though
strikelaserclaw 5y ago
this the dude who just bought a 500mm yacht?
- awestley 5y ago
  What is that? A yacht for ants?
  - hangonhn 5y ago
    The yacht has to be at least.... three times bigger than this!
- whoomp12342 5y ago
  worth 500 million after he graced it with his presence. Its a repurposed shipping container
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Says a lot that they need to trot out an old photo to keep the myth alive.

darknavi 5y ago

As a low-ish level MSFT employee I laughed at this line: > The move promises to bring Amazon’s base pay more in line with other big tech companies, including Google, Facebook, Apple and Microsoft. As a ~62/63 (almost senior or senior) at Microsoft my peers at Facebook, Google, and Amazon can easily make literally twice as much compensation a year in salary, stock, and cash bonuses. Microsoft isn't even in the ballpark. If I didn't absolutely love my job there would be zero reason to stay at Microsoft.

Someone1234 5y ago
I always thought about MSFT as like working for the government: A somewhat boring, stable, 9-5, predictable workplace, but you're exchanging that for lower total compensation. But you can stay there for an actual career, family and all that. Whereas the more "fun" companies like Google/Facebook/Amazon will chew you up and spit you out, and you just have to make as much money as possible in your 20s/early 30s before you burn out. This could be a slightly unfair stereotyping of these companies, but from the people I've spoken to it rings true.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  > I always thought about MSFT as like working for the government: A somewhat boring, stable, 9-5, predictable workplace That obviously wasn't true in the 90s (see the famous Microserfs book), but might be true today, so I would argue against the "always" for those of us around then.
  - CSMastermind 5y ago
    To be clear: working at Microsoft is a hell of a lot better than working in government. You're generally fulfilled creatively and paid extremely well - at least in comparison to everywhere but the very top paying tech firms. What the commenter is saying is true though, Microsoft is a place where you can have an actual career and great work-life balance. It's been that way for at least a decade now.
    - 5y ago

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

I'm amazed both with the number of messages I get from Amazon about job openings and the aggressiveness of them. Add on how many are for ill fitting or basically Hail Mary type positions (During the height of the pandemic I got one wanting me to move to Ireland to work in an Amazon office there. They even acknowledged the oddness of the situation but they were really desperate for people to fill those roles). Seems like Amazon was blown through most of the labor supply and now can't find workers, not because they don't exist but because they don't want to work for Amazon. Doubt more money is going to fix this though perhaps pushing for more visas will let them get some workers who haven't been burnt by Amazon yet. Amazon simply has a bad culture which must be fixed. Even then, it'll take time to repair their reputation.

joshgachnang 5y ago
I get at least 5x the emails from Amazon as Google/Microsoft/Facebook. And lately I've told every single one until they have fully remote teams, I'm not interested and to stop emailing me. And yet almost every other week, a new one messages me.
tdeck 5y ago
> During the height of the pandemic I got one wanting me to move to Ireland to work in an Amazon office there. There's probably some engineer out there who's always wanted to live in Ireland. That said, I imagine if you're in the "hire to fire" bucket it would suck extra to be in anouther country with no job.
anonporridge 5y ago
Amazon chickens coming home to roost.
aantix 5y ago
Agree. Looking at HN, Blind, Glassdoor, very rarely do I remember seeing an engineer that would openly state that they love working there.
- Kranar 5y ago

paulvs 5y ago

Does this affect contractors, or just employees? This year, I noticed Amazon hires international contractors for engineering roles and I don't think I saw that before. I wonder if Amazon is opening up more roles internationally (via contractors), while increasing wages of employees to retain folks in US/Canada/etc. I don't have any data to back this idea up, it's just a thought.

pyuser583 5y ago
These things never apply to contractors.

_dain_ 5y ago

US tech salary discussions always throw around incomprehensibly large numbers and complain that they are "small"

sdflhasjd 5y ago
Yes, it's also a bit awkward with increasing inequality.
rootusrootus 5y ago
I'm pretty sure a non-trivial amount of that is talk more than average reality. Which isn't to say that there aren't a bunch of people making a half million or more in total comp at a FAANG company, but there are almost certainly a whole lot more quiet people making 100-200K who aren't going to brag on HN about it.
- _dain_ 5y ago
  100-200k is incomprehensibly large for me
  - f6v 5y ago
    You realize that’s before taxes, right?
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
      You realize that it's incomprehensibly high in most of the countries in the world regardless of how it's taxed?
      - rootusrootus 5y ago
        I don't think it's quite that simple. Cost of living has to be factored in, at least. Buying a bog standard middle class house in my city is $850K. And this isn't California, obviously.

dymk 5y ago

My understanding (from friends who have interviewed at Amazon and received offers) is that they are offered a $160k base... plus a $XXX bonus (guaranteed?) every year, to get their cash comp competitive with all the other tech companies. So while this might indeed result in pay bumps, I highly doubt the bumps will be very large. This is also a "simplify how we do offers" thing.

amf12 5y ago

I guess this only changes the stable salary component, which will bring the first year's comp to more comparable levels. Amazon pays an insane amount of cash bonus the first two years to make up for their backloaded vesting and capped salary. Even then the total compensation was pretty high. It might be the case that their stock isn't growing as expected leading to employees to be unhappy.

stephenboyd 5y ago

Now let’s see if they can give more than 10 PTO days

cheeze 5y ago
Uh, what? At least when I worked there in Seattle, I got 48 hours of personal time, a few days of sick time, and a month of PTO every year. Granted, my managers never cared about what I used (personal==sick==pto, use whatever) and I rarely actually recorded vacation.
- malfist 5y ago
  That's not their official policy IIRC. It's 10 vacation days for your first year, 15 after that. And 6 days of sick time. There's lots of leeway for your manager not to enforce it though.
barbazoo 5y ago
Do they tend to let you take unpaid time off or is that not a thing at all?
kyawzazaw 5y ago
New grads get 15 days, no?

davidw 5y ago

Pre-pandemic, I occasionally got some recruiter email from them and they were always really insistent about relocating to the Seattle area (something I wanted to do about as much as I want a hole in the head). Makes me wonder if they've done a good job with their remote culture.

_trackno5 5y ago

Finally Amazon is realising their trash comp won't get them any hires in the current market. They were not even close to being competitive with other FAANG before. Couple that with the bad culture and I'm sure they were feeling the pressure to get new hires.

lbriner 5y ago
Trash comp? You might be talking about FAANG companies but very few Devs (maybe London) in the UK would get close to $160K, let alone $350K. They might want to attract talent but I suspect there are diminishing returns after a while, you only have to look at Amazon music App, Amazon web site, GMail and the Netflix app on my smart TV to realise they are not releasing good stuff all the time.
- clerk_occam 5y ago
  This is mostly for US, particularly in the Bay Area. There, fresh grads (SDE1s) are making $175k total comp, with $133,500 base salary. The base hardly increased for higher levels (SDE2/SDE3) before today, only being able to rise $26,500 before hitting the old cap.
- pojzon 5y ago
  You also have to look at how much $$ is printed year to year and how much inflation hit IT sector. After finally deciding to switch jobs I got twice the salary of previous employer when I hoped Ill get 20-30%. Market is not catching up to goverments pomping out new taxes and inflation.
- _trackno5 5y ago
  Not necessarily FAANG, but even unicorns pay more than them. I got better offers from Bloomberg, Reddit, Stripe, and Facebook. Amazon also backloads the equity. You get barely anything if you leave after 2 years.
- mciancia 5y ago
  Don't worry, it's not like Amazon is paying like that in the UK ;] US market is kinda special thanks to high concentration of tech companies in SV behind great wall made of Visas/greencard lotteries

wiskinator 5y ago

What's a 'maximum base' pay? Is that the max salary someone with the right credentials could earn in an entry level position?

hamburglar 5y ago
It’s the max salary rate for a given level according to company policies. Once you hit this, no matter how well you do they’ll try to tell you you can’t get a raise unless you get a promotion. Of course, this matters little since they will be shoveling RSUs at you if they want to keep you.
- hamburglar 5y ago
  Oh yeah, and mirroring other comments, this is the max base for the highest level in this case, so it is the max max. And also it’s never really true that they can’t exceed it. Everything is negotiable if you’re hot enough shit.
pavlov 5y ago
No, it's the maximum base pay for all positions. Beyond entry level, most of the compensation at Amazon and other FAANGs is in the form of stock awards (RSUs). So a senior engineer might have a $160k annual salary and $300k worth of RSUs vesting that year, making for $460k total compensation. In an environment of rising stock prices, this is a cost-effective way for a large company to pay high salaries because the stock that's worth $300k today was only worth, say, $150k when it was originally granted, and that's the price that Amazon effectively paid in its earnings deductions at that time.
argc 5y ago
No, its just the maximum cash base that amazon will pay anyone, at any level (perhaps without a VP approval, or something). RSU's and cash bonuses are not included, so it does not reflect total comp. E.g. someone might have 160k base and 500k total comp, including their RSUs.
darknavi 5y ago
Previously you could not make more than ~$160k in salary at Amazon at any level. Now they are raising the cap.

faangiq 5y ago

Likely a scam. Don’t expect any raises from this.

hemloc_io 5y ago
Hmm what do you mean? They announced the numbers, before perf season even started. Everyone is going to be asking can I get ~350k? Base salary before was half that...

sydthrowaway 5y ago

So the base pay was 185, now 350k Doesn't really make much difference, unless you were hiring finance bros. The total comp is what mattered.

petilon 5y ago
> The total comp is what mattered. Assuming you're going to stay at Amazon for a long time, yes, total comp is what matters. If not then base pay matters because you don't get to keep most of the stock if you leave after a year or two. Amazon's vesting schedule is pretty bad. Just 5% at the end of year 1! https://avieradvisors.com/amazon/amazons-rsu/ https://avieradvisors.com/amazon/amazons-rsu/
- sydthrowaway 5y ago
  The signing bonus already remediated that.
mrep 5y ago
Not entirely, RSUs are harder to use when qualifying for a mortgage.
- grogers 5y ago
  Wouldn't you just show your N most recent W2s to your bank? Why would they care about your comp breakdown?
  - mrep 5y ago
    Not for US mortgages, here is what my mortgage broker sent me as a requirement for the second home I am looking to buy: OK – we can use the RSU’s with the following conditions: Your borrower will need to have a 2-year history of liquidating the RSU account and evidence the RSUs are received as part of the borrower's regular income. Fannie Mae requires you obtain the issuance agreement, schedule of share distributions, vesting schedule, evidence the stock is publicly traded, and evidence of payout of the RSU per YTD paystub and W-2s for the most recent 2 years. Freddie Mac requires the same in addition to a 10-day PCV. The income will be required to continue for a minimum of 3 years. If you can get me these items highlighted above, I will send to Underwriting for them to calculate the income and get us a valid number to use for qualifying.

ngcazz 5y ago

whilst warehouse workers earn what...

wdb 5y ago

Why don't they raise the salaries of the Amazon delivery and order pickers instead?

inoop 5y ago
They are: https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-starting-pay-18-an-hour-it-hires-125000-more-logistics-2021-09-14 https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star...
- wdb 5y ago
  Pretty weak raise compared to what the these people getting with base pay of $350k
tdhoot 5y ago
How would that help if they're having trouble hiring or retaining software engineers?

jdlyga 5y ago

Wow, if 350k is what they raised it to then what was it before? I thought Amazon engineers were rolling in money compared to non-FAANGs.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wging 5y ago
That's all in the article. First sentence: "Amazon will boost its maximum base pay to $350,000 for corporate and tech employees, from $160,000 previously". Amazon's compensation has historically been very RSU-heavy (aka, you are partly paid in stock), especially at higher levels.
darkstar999 5y ago
The answer is in the first sentence of the article.
valbaca 5y ago
$160k It's literally the first sentence of the article "Amazon will boost its maximum base pay to $350,000 for corporate and tech employees, from $160,000 previously, as part of an overall increase in total compensation intended to help recruit top talent and retain existing employees."
dewski 5y ago
The first sentence of article stated it was $160,000.

lhorie 5y ago

Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be at a point where it really needs to try everything under the sun to try to attract talent, given their extremely poor reputation. With this said, from reading the article, this move seems reminiscent of Netflix's pay structure, in the sense of offering a higher cash portion but lower equity. Some people here already mentioned that this was already sort of the case with a sign on bonus compensating for the backloaded vesting structure. From my experience interacting w/ professionals outside the FANG bubble, equity tends to be a bit confusing, so I wonder if a move towards bigger cash portions is a way to try to lure people who wouldn't otherwise be looking at big tech as a prospective career choice. What's also curious to me is that bumping up cash comp is in direct opposition to the trends from some other tech giants, where they are frontloading equity vesting. My sample size might just be small, but it feels like cash comp seems to correlate somewhat with bearish stock feeling and that frontloaded equity tends to correlate w/ bullish stock feeling. Would love to hear whether I'm off the mark here or not.

pishpash 5y ago
At these bubble valuations and Fed funds rate going up I would hope cash is valued more.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. A company so large as to literally run out of humans. Happened with their warehouse workers too. https://www.essence.com/news/amazon-burning-through-workers/ https://www.essence.com/news/amazon-burning-through-workers/
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > A company so large as to literally run out of humans It's not the size, its the attrition that's the problem. Everything would be fine if they retained employees, but stackranks for the stackrank god.

gregdoesit 5y ago

I’ve been talking to close to a dozen current and former Amazon employees since the end of 2021, and reached out to people publicly sharing attrition observations. Amazon attrition is really bad, even in AWS (Amazon employees all agree that AWS is a much better place to work in tech than Amazon retail). At the same time, Amazon has had to pay very high for new hires. Hiring managers used to need to get L10 approval to go out of bands on offers outside bands, but starting late 2021, they could go out of bands up to ~20% higher with no approvals. To top all of this, Amazon has a 6% internal URA (non-regretted attrition) target: something that has been in place for close to a decade. The Amazon Music group revolted late 2021 as reported by the Big Technology publication in-depth [1] as they didn't have 6% of people to fire, at the very time when they could not hire. Yet they were forced to hit this URA target, just like all other orgs in Amazon. Apparently this “rebellion email” leaked across the company and is sparking Amazon-wide outrage, and adds fuel to the fire. Amazon has been extremely frugal for the skillset they hire for, very demanding and have created a stressful workplace. They still force 6% of engineers to be fired, even when their own leadership opposes this (Amazon Music). I wonder why they can’t hire. Also, why is Amazon still part of the FANG abbreviation when they have this culture across many of their organisations? [1] https://bigtechnology.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=substack_profile https://bigtechnology.substack.com/?utm_source=substack&utm_...

foobarian 5y ago
> To top all of this, Amazon has a 6% internal URA So that's where all the Microsoft stack-ranking hawks went!
Tempest1981 5y ago
Your link took me to the home page. Is this the story? https://bigtechnology.substack.com/p/standing-up-for-us-plebs-amazon-leaders https://bigtechnology.substack.com/p/standing-up-for-us-pleb...
- gregdoesit 5y ago
  Yes, this is the one I meant to link. I can no longer edit my comment, unfortunately.

mathattack 5y ago

Their recruiting process is very onerous too. Very hard to get people who are well paid to even interview when they know it’s so much work, only to get a pay cut.

ipaddr 5y ago
This is an interesting point. Do you the total rounds/average expect time to complete the loop. I agree if I'm looking and someone makes the interview process quick that interest will make me more likely to join.
- coredog64 5y ago
  The full in-person loop is 5 60 minute sessions. Maybe another hour for the initial phone screen.
  - mathattack 5y ago
    My experience with Amazon was many rounds, several encouraged “coaching” sessions, and a suggestion that I come up with 2-3 anecdotes relating to each of the 14 values. That’s a big ask to take a pay cut.
bootwoot 5y ago
It seems in line with competing companies.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

This is just an element of normalizing Amazon comp practices versus the rest of the industry, really, right?

OnionBlender 5y ago

I haven't done any interviews since before covid. What resources do people suggest reading in order to prepare? I'm familiar with leetcode but I'm wondering what books I should read besides Cracking the Coding Interview.

jl2718 5y ago

Or they are pushing more compensation into cash because cash is a lot cheaper for them than equity. What I mean by that is that they have almost unlimited borrowing capacity at near-zero rates, versus a fixed amount of equity, and as long as the equity keeps growing, the cash pool grows with it. If the employees want to then purchase the equity, then that is upward pressure on the price, versus downward pressure on the price when an employee sells equity for cash.

tdhoot 5y ago
In theory it's all fungible and doesn't work this way. If it did, they would just take out a loan and buyback their stock and skip all the extra steps.

etempleton 5y ago

This is good news for tech workers, but the income disparity between Amazon tech workers and Amazon warehouse/delivery workers is absolutely obscene. Understandably, skilled vs unskilled labor, and supply and demand, and all that, but as Jon Stewart recently recounted telling Jeff Bezos at a dinner party, “sounds like a recipe for a revolution.”

abletonlive 5y ago
not only skilled vs unskilled labor. but an engineer can produce a system which generates millions of revenue a day. a warehouse worker, cannot scale this way.
- etempleton 5y ago
  This is very true, but at some point you need to value people at a base level. Warehouse work is grueling and you can easily get hurt. 16 /hr, which is the base of an Amazon warehouse worker, is below a livable wage w/o kids in much of the country. There is what you can get away with and what is right. At some point you just have to do what is right.
  - belval 5y ago
    Not commenting on the substance of your comment, but seems like they hiked it to 18$/hr? https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-starting-pay-18-an-hour-it-hires-125000-more-logistics-2021-09-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/exclusive-amazon-hikes-star...
bagacrap 5y ago
it seems like learning how to code would be easier than overthrowing the govt (at least it did to me back before I had any skills)
- etempleton 5y ago
  Not everyone can learn to code at a high level for one reason or another. They should still be able to feed and house their family if gainfully employed full time.

MuffinFlavored 5y ago

Will Amazon at any point start considering hiring more engineers from countries that command lesser salaries like Brazil/EU than they do US engineers? Why do US engineers command such higher salaries?

rybosworld 5y ago
European labor laws are a major factor. It's much harder to fire people and a company like Amazon loves to fire people. I imagine Brazil doesn't have enough of a talent pool to draw from.
- mihaigalos 5y ago
  > European labor laws are a major factor. It's much harder to fire people and a company like Amazon loves to fire people. Not sure why I keep reading this over and over. Yes, it can take up to 6 months to fire somebody here in Europe (usually 1-3 months though). The 6 months is usually for >15 years of uninterrupted work with the same company. Justifying that "the company cannot easily fire because of labor laws" is just plain wrong. If the 250k+$ jobs I'm constantly reading about are actually true, it's double the average that I've ever heard about for any type of Senior SW Devs in most competitive / innovative centers in the EU. 350k$ more so. Stocks are not even part of the TC. In most EU countries, SW Devs make about 50-60k€ as juniors. To reiterate, the math doesn't add up, so the argument must be talent, not laws.
  - ehaughee 5y ago
    Speaking only for my own org's stated goals, they try to hire within the same timezone or close-by. So South America, for a west coast team, would theoretically work but Europe would be a tougher sell. Amazon also hasn't historically done a lot of remote work (as far as I've seen anyway) so, pre-COVID, an office would likely need to exist in a given area.
  - Hakashiro 5y ago
    I'm also pissed off when I see HN people seeing 200k or 300k salaries as "too low". Jesus, Americans are millionaires, what the hell?! I'll tell you the reason: they do this because they can. It's not talent, it's competition. Who in EU is going to give you even 80k as a junior? Nobody. So why bother offering 300k or even 150k when people will take the tole for 60 or 70k? Inb4 "but housing is more affordable!" Whatever. That's not related to the employer. It's simply racist. "You earn less because you're European" is the truth. It's not because cost of living is lower (although it's related) but it's just a matter of employers being able to get away with shitty pay.

amotinga 5y ago

2 things why I dont bother interviewing: 1. very difficult long interview that I most likely won't pass 2. I only want to work remotely. driving every day few hours back and forth is very expensive in many ways. When something changes about those I will think about it.

kyawzazaw 5y ago
Amazon has remote roles

newobj 5y ago

LOL only took them ... forever ... I left Amazon ~7 years ago to go to FB because my base FB pay was higher than my Amazon total comp. Nevermind FB RSUs ... LOL

yoelo 5y ago

They should do this to warehouse workers instead who deserve it way more

ukFxqnLa2sBSBf6 5y ago

I get contacted by Amazon recruiters multiple times a week. Now that I'm actively looking for a job, I thought I'd give them a chance. It would be good interview practice at the very least. So I take the online assessment and it turns out that one of the questions was a LeetCode Hard. Like... what? Did they want me to fail?

deltaonefour 5y ago

Ok. amazon has a high attrition rate because of it's culture. Making the pay higher won't necessarily fix that. Does ANYONE in amazon see culture changes occurring at all? I'm willing to respond to the 5 recruiters contacting me BUT only if there is a huge drive to change culture as well.

DesiLurker 5y ago
plus that high pay looks just like a bait to me. you still have to survive brutal (& I mean Brutal) annual reviews for entire duration and also not get PIPed in the process. getting piped for a bullshit reason really sucks, I have never been but have closely seen it happen. to answer the original question, nope, I have not seen any evidence of culture change, source: a close friend joined & left in a year.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  Well, this uptick I've seen only in the last couple months so I'm wondering is there a culture change or impetus for culture change that occurred within the last month or couple months or so? I think it's unlikely and that you're probably most likely right, but I want to fish out some comments from people in amazon who know what's going on.
belval 5y ago
Disclaimer: I work at AWS. I see comments about the culture a lot and I feel the need to chime in and say that it's not actually bad? At least in my team, the work life balance is fine, my manager is great and the projects are interesting. Not saying that it's the same for every SDE, but some of the stories you read online make it seem like they shackle you to your desk and PIP you into submission.
- deltaonefour 5y ago
  What about during review season where someone on your team MUST get pipped? I know that there are teams that are doing well. But if one person or more on your team gets pipped every year something is wrong...

banana-19 5y ago

My Amazon salary history, to anchor some of this story better: - Joined early early 2017 as an L5 hire (no previous FANG experience, but 10+ elsewhere) with an an offer of base $145K, sign on of $50K year 1, $38K year 2, 150 RSUs (AMZN worth ~$850 = 127500). Vesting schedule: 5% @ 1y, 15% @ 2y, 20% @ 2.5y, 20% @ 3y, 20% @ 3.5y, 20% @ 4y. - Negotiated without competing offers a bump to $150K base, $60K / $45K cash, 162 RSUs. - A breakdown based on Amazon's 15% stock aprecciation YOY gives you Amazon's Total Compensation Target. This is Amazon's projection assuming that you perform at the middle of the expectation of your cohort in the yearly performance review (OLR, not forte as the article states) - year 1 (8 RSUs): $150K base + $60K cash + 8 * $850 * 1.15 = $218K - year 2 (24 RSUs): $150K base + $46K cash + 24 * $850 * 1.15^2 = $223K - year 3 (32 + 33 RSUs): $150K base + (32 * $850 * 1.15^2.5) + (33 * $850 * 1.15^3) = $231K - year 4 (32 + 33 RSUs): $150K base + (32 * $850 * 1.15^3.5) + (33 * $850 * 1.15^4) = $243K - Actual salary - year 1 (AMZN @ $1430) = $221K. OLR bumped base salary for next year to $157K - year 2 (AMZN @ $1844) = $247K. OLR bumped base salary for next year to $160K. No stock grant as projected salary > comp target - year 3 (AMZN @ $1767, $2307) = $292K. Granted 18 RSUs to vest at year 4.5 and year 5 - year 4 (AMZN @ $3338, $3379) = $378K - year 5 (AMZN @ $3409, $3400?) = $221K - Notes - due to manager / life reasons, didn't progress beyond L5. If I were to pursue this this year, my comp adjustment would have come about a year after starting at that level (but only to the lower end of the L6 band ~ $250K). $30K for a tonne more work seems rather stupid. - note the golden handcuffs as well as that huge cliff - some of the above is intentionally inaccurate (but not by a huge amount)

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Seems like it would be a lot better to realize you have a problem with management if your base (developers in this case) can't be retained or evidently bribed. Something is clearly broken in their organization, I mean holy shit 350k???

cheeze 5y ago
In my opinion, not really. Amazon management is far from great, that being said it's more that a developer that can "get into" Amazon can go elsewhere and make way more. FB is paying like, double of many of my friends at Amz right now and moving there is pretty easy. Goog is a bit less but still the same magnitude/ballpark. You can call raising pay a bribe, but isn't that what work is? I mean shit, I wouldn't do my job if I didn't get paid for it. I have way more interesting hobbies than that... In that sense, is everything a bribe? I feel like those words don't really mean anything. The increase isn't "we're paying all of our devs 350k tomorrow", it's "we can raise your salary up to 350, whereas before it was limited to 160"

belval 5y ago

I think this is a good move. The compensation structure of Amazon (max $160k, rest is RSUs) made sense when the company delivered stock value growth each year. It felt startup-esque. The issue is that the stock performance has been unimpressive for several years now, which means that a lot of higher-ups and older employees were seeing their compensation become significantly below market-rate and would, as one expect, leave. To give people here an idea, my RSUs lost ~4% in value since I've been at Amazon (more than a year). This is perfectly fine if there's an expectation that the RSUs are a "bonus", it's not fine if you need it to go up 10-15% for your TC to match Microsoft.

nojito 5y ago

Now is the perfect time to move to amazon as an experienced corp manager. Your take home will easily exceed $1m which will help you gain a nice bump if you choose to move elsewhere in 18 months or so.

internetting3 5y ago

More stocks are actually favorable over cash to avoid Medicare and SS taxes which are approximately 15%. To me, this seems like a strategy to counter the volatility in the stock market and it gives Amazon a way to exit equity based employee retention.

kyawzazaw 5y ago
Aren’t RSU taxed as income tax anyways?
tfehring 5y ago
RSUs are still subject to FICA taxes, see e.g. [0] and [1]. Also, most tech workers are above the income limit for Social Security taxes, so their marginal payroll tax rate is only 2.9%. [0] https://www.foley.com/en/insights/publications/2020/08/restricted-stock-units-10-fast-facts https://www.foley.com/en/insights/publications/2020/08/restr... [1] https://www.mayerbrown.com/en/perspectives-events/blogs/2020/08/irs-updates-guidance-on-timing-of-wage-and-fica-withholding-for-stock-options-and-rsus https://www.mayerbrown.com/en/perspectives-events/blogs/2020...

toslimuddinbd 5y ago

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