36 ms·

USB Type-C finally shows up in power tools

226 points by webmobdev 5y ago

mrjin 5y ago
I'm not sure if this a good idea. USB-C is way too delicate for power tools and has way too many useless contact in given contexts. Anyone would expect lots of small particles or dusts in the environment, the socket should be able to tolerate that and I really don't see how USB-C can handle that. In my home, the most damaged cables are USB-C ones followed by lightening ones which is more or less we can expect from USB-C power tools. IMO any existing power tool battery socket will do as long as all power tools use the exactly the same standard. Current sockets are simple and robust, the only problem is really there are way too many of standard. Almost every vendor have their own. Making it worse, even with the same vendor, the sockets can be different between generation or different series, which make it really hard if not impossible to share batteries between tools. USB-C kinda alleviate the exchanging issue but in turn introduced reliability issue, which might be worse actually.
pcdoodle 5y ago
I don't mind USB-C but the dang cables and adapters have limited discoverability. Power Delivery seems to go up to 240W for USB-C. Other options for passing power and data would be PoE (90W Max using all 4 pairs). PoE also is very discoverable and easily crimped by an end user. Any other standards out there we should be aware of?
- ianai 5y ago
  As soon as we're talking about serious power, I'd like to see a UL-certification or something similar. I'd like to know this little widget isn't going to burn my house/apartment down.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  There's Powerline ethernet over AC. Imagine a 'radio' plug instead of RJ-45 doing double-duty.
  - oofabz 5y ago
    The reason USB is so popular for charging is because it delivers low-voltage DC power, not because it can be used for communication.
emptybottle 5y ago
Hoping this pans out. I was gifted a black and decker drill which has a proprietary shape charge cable, and of course that cable has been misplaced. A reasonable standard would prevent so much equipment from entering the landfill due to lost/expensive cables.
- hyperpl 5y ago
  I agree. I find it to be quite annoying having to worry about misplacing my Philips Sonicare charger, electric shaver charger. I've already had to replace some of them but I also find it to be particularly arduous packing them for extended trips and also having to worry about {100,110,240}V compatibility.
- asddubs 5y ago
  I mean this still has a charger with a proprietary connector to the battery. just the PSU for that charger is usb-c now (at least for the dewalt one)
  - cjcampbell 5y ago
    That’s true (for now), and hopefully this is just a first step. As that, it does have other perks too. The Dewalt adapter is 2-way, allowing you to use existing batteries to power USB-C devices.
- blacksmith_tb 5y ago
  I have replaced a bunch of annoying DC barrel chargers with little usb-c to barrel adapters, if your charger uses a barrel, odds are you can find one that will work.
  - fragmede 5y ago
    "USB-C trigger" seems to be the magic phrase to search for.
  - teruakohatu 5y ago
    As intriguing as those are, how do you know what voltage is being selected?
asddubs 5y ago
the real win with power tools would be a unified battery standard across manufacturers
- somehnguy 5y ago
  Unfortunately I don’t think the various manufacturers would ever agree to such a thing. It’s a relatively easily solvable problem if you own a 3D printer though. There are a ton of adapters available on thingiverse already to mix and match batteries between them.
  - asddubs 5y ago
    I think it should just be mandated by the government
    - dijonman2 5y ago
      Government should be minimal, regulation and policies aren’t a magic wand. Functioning free markets self regulate. The crux is that it’s very expensive and difficult to break into the market. I’m also really tired of hearing folks continue to advocate for regulation of everything.
      - asddubs 5y ago
        it worked for phone charger adaptors. every phone had its own proprietary connector before the EU stepped in and mandated micro usb. and things immediately got so much better.
      - orhmeh09 5y ago
        Where do they have functioning free markets anyway?
      - agentdrtran 5y ago
        Wow, they self regulated? So how do I get my dewalt batteries in my milwaukee drill as a result of this self-regulation?
raybb 5y ago
Back in 2019 I went on a search for an electric toothbrush with a usb-c charging port. I found one that seemed reasonable and it was from Xiaomi. I've quite enjoyed their phones so gave it a shot and have been pretty happy with it since then. Only downside is that it doesn't charge at all using a macbook charger. I guess it might be due to too much power? Using smaller charging bricks seems to fix it.
- ProZsolt 5y ago
  It's nothing to do with the higher wattage, but they didn't Xiaomi implement USB PD up to spec. Likely missing the pulldown resistors on the CC lines. You can read more about how they should implemented the PD sink here: https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-c-power-sink-hint-not-the-way-raspberry-pi-4-did-it-f470d7a5910 https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-...
- ianai 5y ago
  I wish the standard had included something on the cable and PD port to signify how much power they were capable of handling. Something like 3 little LEDs (one for less than 50W, two for 50W-100W, etc or something) or even just a number like 50W, 100W, etc. The user experience so far is kinda scary levels of vague.
  - giancarlostoro 5y ago
    I have commented it before if the inside of then were color coded like USB 3 is usually blue.
  - newaccount74 5y ago
    The problem ist that USB-PD allows a lot of different voltages, and chargers have a different max current for each voltage. Many newer chargers are even programmable, where the source can request arbitrary voltages and currents. Power supplies typically have supported voltages and currents printed on them, but in my experience the easiest way to figure out if it works is to just try it.
twistedpair 5y ago
Perhaps the USB Chainsaw [0] will eventually be a reality? DeWalt, are you listening? [0] https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/usb-powered-chainsaw/ https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/usb-powered-chainsaw/
- gumby 5y ago
  Umm, maybe not such a good idea: “The chain saw can remain running when the switch is on the off position or turn on when plugged in…” https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2022/DeWALT-Recalls-18-inch-Corded-Chain-Saws-Due-to-Injury-Hazard https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2022/DeWALT-Recalls-18-inch-Cor...
  - h2odragon 5y ago
    its not a bug, its a feature! "Hot standby" or "always" ready" ... just the thing to differentiate a "home defense / tactical" chainsaw from the lower class workaday types.
chaz6 5y ago
There a new standard called USB Programmable Power Supply which allows devices to specify exactly what voltage they desire in 10mV increments. I have started getting adapters for all my electronics (e.g. label printer) so I can standardise on one kind of power supply. Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V. The issue there is that PD 1.0 was 5/12/20 and then 2.0 was 5/9/15/20. So you can guarantee support for everything except 12, basically. Making 12v optional is not one of their better decisions.
- brirec 5y ago
  I’ve been thinking about getting such adapter cables, but I got a little bit of a sour note after searching desperately for a 24v one, only to find out that’s not part of the spec…
deleted 5y ago
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xt00 5y ago
The approach they are taking here is great. The type-C port is down inside the device as part of the battery so should be almost always protected from crap getting in there. So if the charging port fails / gets bent / gunked full of paint / dirt somehow (which seems unlikely anyway), you just buy a new battery (which you would likely need to do anyway eventually). I just hope nobody puts the port on the tool itself, since that could easily get gunked up and be a point of failure.. Good idea these guys went with.
- LoveMortuus 5y ago
  You can just have a USB cover to prevent stuff from getting into the port and cleaning it isn't that hard either. I find USB C much easier to clean then USB micro B. But I do agree that it's better to prevent then to fix the problem.
kube-system 5y ago
If history has told us anything, once everyone adopts a new standard port, it's time for someone to make a new standard. Anyone remember Micro USB?: https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization-bodies-formalize-micro-usb-cellphone-ch.html https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization...
- zamadatix 5y ago
  USB C has a lot going for it that will hopefully make it last a bit longer. It's loaded with 24 pins, small, and reversable making it flexible in physical aspects and on the protocol side it opts for a "negotiations first" mindset instead of mandating what modes made sense when it was made. Between the two of these categories the need to scrap the entire connector to do something new is much lower now. In comparison micro-b had 4 pins, latches, and wasn't reversible. Better than before but it's easy to see why that didn't last very long! Eventually USB C will hit that point to but it's built with a bit more planning on being a "more than USB" interface in mind from the get go.
  - throwaway81523 5y ago
    Wasn't micro-B supposed to have things going for it to make it last longer than the earlier mini-B? Funny how that worked out.
    - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
      USB3 support hacked onto the micro connectors was not so great. There is also a lot of inconsistency in the shape of the retention latches so that some cables nearly rip out the socket.
  - rektide 5y ago
    Agreed and more. To claim we're churning through solutions is absurd, just off the wall perposterous. USB Micro was introduced in 2007, pretty much as a respin of the physical USB Mini connector- introduced in 2000. USB Micro is pretty much technology from 2000, with a couple small connector fixes. Whether we want to accept USB Micro as pretty much essentially 21 year old legal-drinking-age-in-any-country or only 14 year old tech, this connector has been around for a long long long long time, and in 2010, when it was "standardized" was a pretty obvious sensible choice with little on the horizon. The big characterization I'd make between USB Micro and USB-C (2014) is that USB Micro was designed for one specific task: connecting 5W power (expanded (unofficially?) to 11W) and USB2.0. USB-C is a much more abstract connector, with gobs of general purpose data & a huge range of power ranges. For data there's two pairs of highspeed differential lanes (so, 8 pins), plus some other lines, for power there's way more amps (5A) & scalable voltage (really scalable with USB EP's 48V) meaning tons of juice. These are all opt-in for use. There's a very flexible power delivery range, there's lanes designed for general high speed connection use not just USB. There were upfront designs for how to run multiple protocols, not just USB, over the connector. With USB4 there's packet level sharing, so net bandwidth can be shared in more interesting mixes than 50/50 or to many destinations at once. USB-C can do just about anything. We can keep changing our uses of it to do whatever. It's almost hard to imagine what else we might possibly want. Intel's mobile chip's onboard thunderbolt/USB-C ports offer 40 Gbps system-to-system connectivity, while desktops are still slowly marching towards 2.5Gbit ethernet. 10Gbit connectivity is still semi exotic to anyone but hardcore compute enthusiasts, but this connector has proven itself capable of way way more already, at a clearly mass-market price point. If there's one innovation I would like to see from USB-C and USB in general, it'd be longer connections. I'd love to see a 10Gbit USB4.x mode that works over a 6m cable, for example. I don't think the connector has much to do with the range difficulties faced by modern, high speed USB. And similarly I don't see much push to create a higher-lane count connector, but that's another possible place where USB-C proves less-than-ideal long term.
ct0 5y ago
https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ is going to love this.
OJFord 5y ago
There's a bit of a modding community around the Makita 'LXT' battery system in particular, I can't quickly find it now but I'm sure I've seen USB-C done - possibly only for PD from the battery rather than charging it actually, thinking about it.
throwaway81523 5y ago
Swell, now make the battery formats universal instead of trying to lock users into the manufacturer's tools and batteries.
- formvoltron 5y ago
  This! I wish a hardware hacker with more time than me would create a universal battery pack & set of 3d printable adapters that can connect said battery pack to any power tool.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - drewzero1 5y ago
    I'm working on a proof of concept for this. I've put together a few adapters using the connector shell and contacts from dead batteries to plug into a modified DeWalt battery, so I've got the power supply side of it figured out. That's the easy part though... I don't have experience modeling for 3D printing, or access to a 3d printer, so that's going to take some work. And pretty much all lithium tool batteries have extra contacts for thermal sensor and some form of communication with the battery's PCB. So far the driving force for this project has been an occasional need to run older tools with discontinued/unavailable (usually NiCad) batteries for short periods of time in a relatively controlled test environment, so I haven't yet bothered with the thermal protection circuit (which the tools may not have originally supported). In order to actually use the tools as tools I'll need to have some kind of controller in the adapter to monitor the battery charge level and temperature to make sure the battery isn't being overdischarged. This is handled by a built-in controller in modern tools but I haven't tested how they interoperate with onboard PCBs in different batteries. Side note: I've been surprised learning about how much technology is in modern battery-operated power tools. There's a circuit board in the handle of pretty much every drill that communicates with the battery and trigger and runs the motor. A lot of them are potted in epoxy but sometimes I've spotted an Atmel chip in there.
    - sitkack 5y ago
krasin 5y ago
I am currently (as a hobby-style activity) learning guts of the USB Power Delivery standard and found an incredible (and fully open-source) tool: USB-C explorer, https://www.tindie.com/products/reclaimerlabs/usb-c-explorer/ https://www.tindie.com/products/reclaimerlabs/usb-c-explorer... Basically, you attach the board to any USB port and it will show capabilities (voltage and amperage) on a tiny OLED display. And since the firmware is open-source, it's possible to play around and test a lot of what-ifs: https://github.com/ReclaimerLabs/USB-C-Explorer https://github.com/ReclaimerLabs/USB-C-Explorer I am not engaged with the project other than a very happy user. In other news, the latest USB PD spec allows to pass up to 48V@5A=240W power.
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  That's pretty cool, and I've often wanted such a thing, but $80 is steep. How much of that detection ability would you be able to get in software on a laptop with a USB-C port?
  - krasin 5y ago
    This kind of information is usually deep inside EC (embedded controller) and what they expose to the host system is limited. So, maybe it's possible, but I am not aware of a practical option. Update: it seems that Linux gives some stats about it: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1351186/how-to-debug-usb-c-power-delivery https://askubuntu.com/questions/1351186/how-to-debug-usb-c-p...
- Normal_gaussian 5y ago
  This looks fantastic. Does anyone know of an opposite tool? One that identifies as a source and works out the demands of a sink? The price is fine, and even just this one would save me loads of debugging efforts at home.
  - krasin 5y ago
    The opposite tool exists, it's awesome (on paper, anyway), but I could not afford it ($1200). Meet Acroname USBHub3c Pro: https://acroname.com/store/programmable-industrial-power-delivery-hub-s99-usbhub-3c-pro https://acroname.com/store/programmable-industrial-power-del...
dheera 5y ago
Ugh. USB-C connectors are way, way more fragile than the connectors these power tools used to use. I break about a USB-C cable a week. I bet these things just aren't going to last more than a day or two on a construction site. Power tool connectors should tolerate bricks being dropped on them.
richardfey 5y ago
USB-C receiver ports are subject to wear and tear due to orthogonal applied forces.. Perhaps we will see a mitigation for this?
- reportingsjr 5y ago
  USB type c is designed to have a weaker plug than a receptacle, so plugs wear out/break faster than the receptacles.
  - richardfey 5y ago
    I have seen the opposite effect on Samsung phones, I hope it's an exception.
rektide 5y ago
USB-C -> dc barrel jack cables (or pigtails) are now super cheap on amazon. 5V/9V/12V/15V/20V 3A dc connections from any usb power source. You can basically get rid of any wall wart you want at this point.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Like, my wifi router has a 12V wall wart, but I'm pretty sure the device won't care as long as it gets at least 6V. They probably just found 12V warts to be the cheapest, and then they can run thinner wire between the wart and device. One day I'll get ahold of a pass-through USB battery pack and setup a poor-man's UPS. Extra points if I can hook up a solar panel to it that switches between mains and solar for charging.
hgo 5y ago
This is an honest question: As a European having been to the US and experienced using the power connectors you have, I can't help but immediately wonder why do they design the brick like that? The brick looks quite heavy, so will it actually be possible to use in a wall outlet, or will it, due to the flat pins, fall to the floor? If I put it in a wall outlet wouldn't it definitely block both ports if there are two? (In Europe and elsewhere, the pins are round, thus something connected wouldn't bend out of the socket. Obviously "wall warts" are a pleague here too, but I have never experienced one leaving the socket.) (Maybe I'm sensitive since I was literally shocked after just a couple of days working in a US office, simply connecting a charger under my desk when it sort of bent half way out. I was really surprised how simple it was to get exposed during normal use.)
- s0rce 5y ago
  In North America if the outlets are relatively new and in good shape there are springs inside that hold the plug in so things don't fall off. With older outlets the springs wear out/loosen and stuff can easily fall out, I've seen the plugs where the prongs are bent slightly outward (flared) so that they hold in the plug even in worn outlets. Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true.
  - vetinari 5y ago
    > Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true. Can't you put it into the upper socket, upside down? Most bricks do not have grounding, where the third pin would prevent that (or do they in NA?).
    - hoytschermerhrn 5y ago
      Why does the orientation matter if the end result is the same? My point is your suggestion is no better than OPs, so who cares which way the brick points?
      - 5y ago
sdflhasjd 5y ago
Standard charging ports are nice, but USB-C is too delicate for power tools. Barrel connectors were always a bit crap, it would good to have something a bit more robust and standardised to replace them.
johnwalkr 5y ago
Copy of my comment on a now-dead discussion: A charging port right on the pack is a good idea, you can actually get AA li-ion batteries with usb-c charging (and power step down to 1.5V).[1] Also nice for these large batteries that you can use them to charge stuff as well. I’ve got a bunch of Hitachi li-ion power tools, almost 10 years old and the charger for that doubles as a usb power source when a battery is installed[2], but it’s nicer to have the output on the battery itself. V-mount camera batteries often have USB ports for power out as well. These batteries are really nice for robotics projects as they come in a variety of sizes and an extra 5V power supply always comes in handy[3] [1] https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Batteries-Lithi https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Batteries-Lithi... [2] https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/UC18YSL3-Hitachi-Charger-Slidi https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/UC18YSL3-Hitachi-Charger-Slidi... [3] https://tomantosfilms.com/13999/maxoak-v-mount-batteries/ https://tomantosfilms.com/13999/maxoak-v-mount-batteries/
oxplot 5y ago
I wanted to have everything that could use DC power up to 100watt to use USB PD since half a decade ago but adaption has been super slow so I made fpx [1] and sold it in high quantities to essentially subsidize the cost for my own use. I now have roughly 30 devices that have been converted to use USB-C chargers. I can power them all with a single high quality adapter. I can also power them with power banks, or my car! It’s heaven. Having a few adapters means, I always have spares if one of them breaks. To date, I have converted everything from Ryobi battery chargers, shavers, Vinyl cutters and hair straighteners to vacuum cleaner, label printer, old laptops, standing desks, vacuum sealers and work lights. [1]: https://fpx.oxplot.com https://fpx.oxplot.com
- yummypaint 5y ago
  I have had good results replacing the rectangular thinkpad charging port with USBC configured for 20V delivery. The boards are so small they fit within the footprint of the port, and sugru works well to hold things in place and provide a nice rubber finish. The last piece is using a third party usbc magnetic connector.
- vondro 5y ago
  This is the coolest project/product I've seen lately. Great idea to program the module via the website (+works offline!). For less ambitious hobbyist projects, there are USB type C decoy modules on Aliexpress for around $1 USD each, in 9V, 12V, 15V and 20V versions. Not programmable, but should do the work.
- moreinfoplZ 5y ago
  This is incredibly cool information. I’ve dreamed of this for quite some time (though not as long as you). Do you have info about how you converted the shavers, chargers, etc? I would like to know more (and subscribe to your newsletter).
  - oxplot 5y ago
    Usually, devices have empty space inside that can be used to fit the fpx board. I then drill some holes to expose the port, mount the board inside with bolts and nuts and wire things up. Sometimes I need to 3D print an enclosure, sometimes I just shrink wrap it inline with the power cord for simplicity. See my sibling comments for when fpx board alone isn't enough.
londons_explore 5y ago
It's now time to extend USB PD from 100 watts to 10 kilowatts. Then it can replace the AC outlet, and make power systems in homes worldwide consistent.
nicbou 5y ago
Can I get a USB-C shaver now? I'm surprised that this is still a rarity, especially with travel shavers.
- ksec 5y ago
  I have been crying for this for years. Braun just refuse to make one. Panasonic is finally heading to that direction though with their LamDash / Arc 6 Series. Ignore the Xiaomi USB-C shaver, it is crap.

226 points by webmobdev 5y ago

I'm not sure if this a good idea. USB-C is way too delicate for power tools and has way too many useless contact in given contexts. Anyone would expect lots of small particles or dusts in the environment, the socket should be able to tolerate that and I really don't see how USB-C can handle that. In my home, the most damaged cables are USB-C ones followed by lightening ones which is more or less we can expect from USB-C power tools. IMO any existing power tool battery socket will do as long as all power tools use the exactly the same standard. Current sockets are simple and robust, the only problem is really there are way too many of standard. Almost every vendor have their own. Making it worse, even with the same vendor, the sockets can be different between generation or different series, which make it really hard if not impossible to share batteries between tools. USB-C kinda alleviate the exchanging issue but in turn introduced reliability issue, which might be worse actually.

pcdoodle 5y ago

I don't mind USB-C but the dang cables and adapters have limited discoverability. Power Delivery seems to go up to 240W for USB-C. Other options for passing power and data would be PoE (90W Max using all 4 pairs). PoE also is very discoverable and easily crimped by an end user. Any other standards out there we should be aware of?

ianai 5y ago
As soon as we're talking about serious power, I'd like to see a UL-certification or something similar. I'd like to know this little widget isn't going to burn my house/apartment down.
karmakaze 5y ago
There's Powerline ethernet over AC. Imagine a 'radio' plug instead of RJ-45 doing double-duty.
- oofabz 5y ago
  The reason USB is so popular for charging is because it delivers low-voltage DC power, not because it can be used for communication.

emptybottle 5y ago

Hoping this pans out. I was gifted a black and decker drill which has a proprietary shape charge cable, and of course that cable has been misplaced. A reasonable standard would prevent so much equipment from entering the landfill due to lost/expensive cables.

hyperpl 5y ago
I agree. I find it to be quite annoying having to worry about misplacing my Philips Sonicare charger, electric shaver charger. I've already had to replace some of them but I also find it to be particularly arduous packing them for extended trips and also having to worry about {100,110,240}V compatibility.
asddubs 5y ago
I mean this still has a charger with a proprietary connector to the battery. just the PSU for that charger is usb-c now (at least for the dewalt one)
- cjcampbell 5y ago
  That’s true (for now), and hopefully this is just a first step. As that, it does have other perks too. The Dewalt adapter is 2-way, allowing you to use existing batteries to power USB-C devices.
blacksmith_tb 5y ago
I have replaced a bunch of annoying DC barrel chargers with little usb-c to barrel adapters, if your charger uses a barrel, odds are you can find one that will work.
- fragmede 5y ago
  "USB-C trigger" seems to be the magic phrase to search for.
- teruakohatu 5y ago
  As intriguing as those are, how do you know what voltage is being selected?

asddubs 5y ago

the real win with power tools would be a unified battery standard across manufacturers

somehnguy 5y ago
Unfortunately I don’t think the various manufacturers would ever agree to such a thing. It’s a relatively easily solvable problem if you own a 3D printer though. There are a ton of adapters available on thingiverse already to mix and match batteries between them.
- asddubs 5y ago
  I think it should just be mandated by the government
  - dijonman2 5y ago
    Government should be minimal, regulation and policies aren’t a magic wand. Functioning free markets self regulate. The crux is that it’s very expensive and difficult to break into the market. I’m also really tired of hearing folks continue to advocate for regulation of everything.
    - asddubs 5y ago
      it worked for phone charger adaptors. every phone had its own proprietary connector before the EU stepped in and mandated micro usb. and things immediately got so much better.
    - orhmeh09 5y ago
      Where do they have functioning free markets anyway?
    - agentdrtran 5y ago
      Wow, they self regulated? So how do I get my dewalt batteries in my milwaukee drill as a result of this self-regulation?

raybb 5y ago

Back in 2019 I went on a search for an electric toothbrush with a usb-c charging port. I found one that seemed reasonable and it was from Xiaomi. I've quite enjoyed their phones so gave it a shot and have been pretty happy with it since then. Only downside is that it doesn't charge at all using a macbook charger. I guess it might be due to too much power? Using smaller charging bricks seems to fix it.

ProZsolt 5y ago
It's nothing to do with the higher wattage, but they didn't Xiaomi implement USB PD up to spec. Likely missing the pulldown resistors on the CC lines. You can read more about how they should implemented the PD sink here: https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-c-power-sink-hint-not-the-way-raspberry-pi-4-did-it-f470d7a5910 https://medium.com/@leung.benson/how-to-design-a-proper-usb-...
ianai 5y ago
I wish the standard had included something on the cable and PD port to signify how much power they were capable of handling. Something like 3 little LEDs (one for less than 50W, two for 50W-100W, etc or something) or even just a number like 50W, 100W, etc. The user experience so far is kinda scary levels of vague.
- giancarlostoro 5y ago
  I have commented it before if the inside of then were color coded like USB 3 is usually blue.
- newaccount74 5y ago
  The problem ist that USB-PD allows a lot of different voltages, and chargers have a different max current for each voltage. Many newer chargers are even programmable, where the source can request arbitrary voltages and currents. Power supplies typically have supported voltages and currents printed on them, but in my experience the easiest way to figure out if it works is to just try it.

twistedpair 5y ago

Perhaps the USB Chainsaw [0] will eventually be a reality? DeWalt, are you listening? [0] https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/usb-powered-chainsaw/ https://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/usb-powered-chainsaw/

gumby 5y ago
Umm, maybe not such a good idea: “The chain saw can remain running when the switch is on the off position or turn on when plugged in…” https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2022/DeWALT-Recalls-18-inch-Corded-Chain-Saws-Due-to-Injury-Hazard https://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2022/DeWALT-Recalls-18-inch-Cor...
- h2odragon 5y ago
  its not a bug, its a feature! "Hot standby" or "always" ready" ... just the thing to differentiate a "home defense / tactical" chainsaw from the lower class workaday types.

chaz6 5y ago

There a new standard called USB Programmable Power Supply which allows devices to specify exactly what voltage they desire in 10mV increments. I have started getting adapters for all my electronics (e.g. label printer) so I can standardise on one kind of power supply. Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V.

Dylan16807 5y ago
> Most things use one of the normal voltages (5/9/12/15/20) so USB PD will often suffice, however not all USB PD chargers support all the voltages. I have a Delta Electronics USB PD charger that does not do 12V. The issue there is that PD 1.0 was 5/12/20 and then 2.0 was 5/9/15/20. So you can guarantee support for everything except 12, basically. Making 12v optional is not one of their better decisions.
brirec 5y ago
I’ve been thinking about getting such adapter cables, but I got a little bit of a sour note after searching desperately for a 24v one, only to find out that’s not part of the spec…

deleted 5y ago

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xt00 5y ago

The approach they are taking here is great. The type-C port is down inside the device as part of the battery so should be almost always protected from crap getting in there. So if the charging port fails / gets bent / gunked full of paint / dirt somehow (which seems unlikely anyway), you just buy a new battery (which you would likely need to do anyway eventually). I just hope nobody puts the port on the tool itself, since that could easily get gunked up and be a point of failure.. Good idea these guys went with.

LoveMortuus 5y ago
You can just have a USB cover to prevent stuff from getting into the port and cleaning it isn't that hard either. I find USB C much easier to clean then USB micro B. But I do agree that it's better to prevent then to fix the problem.

kube-system 5y ago

If history has told us anything, once everyone adopts a new standard port, it's time for someone to make a new standard. Anyone remember Micro USB?: https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization-bodies-formalize-micro-usb-cellphone-ch.html https://www.engadget.com/2010-12-29-european-standardization...

zamadatix 5y ago
USB C has a lot going for it that will hopefully make it last a bit longer. It's loaded with 24 pins, small, and reversable making it flexible in physical aspects and on the protocol side it opts for a "negotiations first" mindset instead of mandating what modes made sense when it was made. Between the two of these categories the need to scrap the entire connector to do something new is much lower now. In comparison micro-b had 4 pins, latches, and wasn't reversible. Better than before but it's easy to see why that didn't last very long! Eventually USB C will hit that point to but it's built with a bit more planning on being a "more than USB" interface in mind from the get go.
- throwaway81523 5y ago
  Wasn't micro-B supposed to have things going for it to make it last longer than the earlier mini-B? Funny how that worked out.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    USB3 support hacked onto the micro connectors was not so great. There is also a lot of inconsistency in the shape of the retention latches so that some cables nearly rip out the socket.
- rektide 5y ago
  Agreed and more. To claim we're churning through solutions is absurd, just off the wall perposterous. USB Micro was introduced in 2007, pretty much as a respin of the physical USB Mini connector- introduced in 2000. USB Micro is pretty much technology from 2000, with a couple small connector fixes. Whether we want to accept USB Micro as pretty much essentially 21 year old legal-drinking-age-in-any-country or only 14 year old tech, this connector has been around for a long long long long time, and in 2010, when it was "standardized" was a pretty obvious sensible choice with little on the horizon. The big characterization I'd make between USB Micro and USB-C (2014) is that USB Micro was designed for one specific task: connecting 5W power (expanded (unofficially?) to 11W) and USB2.0. USB-C is a much more abstract connector, with gobs of general purpose data & a huge range of power ranges. For data there's two pairs of highspeed differential lanes (so, 8 pins), plus some other lines, for power there's way more amps (5A) & scalable voltage (really scalable with USB EP's 48V) meaning tons of juice. These are all opt-in for use. There's a very flexible power delivery range, there's lanes designed for general high speed connection use not just USB. There were upfront designs for how to run multiple protocols, not just USB, over the connector. With USB4 there's packet level sharing, so net bandwidth can be shared in more interesting mixes than 50/50 or to many destinations at once. USB-C can do just about anything. We can keep changing our uses of it to do whatever. It's almost hard to imagine what else we might possibly want. Intel's mobile chip's onboard thunderbolt/USB-C ports offer 40 Gbps system-to-system connectivity, while desktops are still slowly marching towards 2.5Gbit ethernet. 10Gbit connectivity is still semi exotic to anyone but hardcore compute enthusiasts, but this connector has proven itself capable of way way more already, at a clearly mass-market price point. If there's one innovation I would like to see from USB-C and USB in general, it'd be longer connections. I'd love to see a 10Gbit USB4.x mode that works over a 6m cable, for example. I don't think the connector has much to do with the range difficulties faced by modern, high speed USB. And similarly I don't see much push to create a higher-lane count connector, but that's another possible place where USB-C proves less-than-ideal long term.

ct0 5y ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ https://old.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/ is going to love this.

OJFord 5y ago

There's a bit of a modding community around the Makita 'LXT' battery system in particular, I can't quickly find it now but I'm sure I've seen USB-C done - possibly only for PD from the battery rather than charging it actually, thinking about it.

throwaway81523 5y ago

Swell, now make the battery formats universal instead of trying to lock users into the manufacturer's tools and batteries.

formvoltron 5y ago
This! I wish a hardware hacker with more time than me would create a universal battery pack & set of 3d printable adapters that can connect said battery pack to any power tool.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- drewzero1 5y ago
  I'm working on a proof of concept for this. I've put together a few adapters using the connector shell and contacts from dead batteries to plug into a modified DeWalt battery, so I've got the power supply side of it figured out. That's the easy part though... I don't have experience modeling for 3D printing, or access to a 3d printer, so that's going to take some work. And pretty much all lithium tool batteries have extra contacts for thermal sensor and some form of communication with the battery's PCB. So far the driving force for this project has been an occasional need to run older tools with discontinued/unavailable (usually NiCad) batteries for short periods of time in a relatively controlled test environment, so I haven't yet bothered with the thermal protection circuit (which the tools may not have originally supported). In order to actually use the tools as tools I'll need to have some kind of controller in the adapter to monitor the battery charge level and temperature to make sure the battery isn't being overdischarged. This is handled by a built-in controller in modern tools but I haven't tested how they interoperate with onboard PCBs in different batteries. Side note: I've been surprised learning about how much technology is in modern battery-operated power tools. There's a circuit board in the handle of pretty much every drill that communicates with the battery and trigger and runs the motor. A lot of them are potted in epoxy but sometimes I've spotted an Atmel chip in there.
  - sitkack 5y ago

krasin 5y ago

I am currently (as a hobby-style activity) learning guts of the USB Power Delivery standard and found an incredible (and fully open-source) tool: USB-C explorer, https://www.tindie.com/products/reclaimerlabs/usb-c-explorer/ https://www.tindie.com/products/reclaimerlabs/usb-c-explorer... Basically, you attach the board to any USB port and it will show capabilities (voltage and amperage) on a tiny OLED display. And since the firmware is open-source, it's possible to play around and test a lot of what-ifs: https://github.com/ReclaimerLabs/USB-C-Explorer https://github.com/ReclaimerLabs/USB-C-Explorer I am not engaged with the project other than a very happy user. In other news, the latest USB PD spec allows to pass up to 48V@5A=240W power.

tomjakubowski 5y ago
That's pretty cool, and I've often wanted such a thing, but $80 is steep. How much of that detection ability would you be able to get in software on a laptop with a USB-C port?
- krasin 5y ago
  This kind of information is usually deep inside EC (embedded controller) and what they expose to the host system is limited. So, maybe it's possible, but I am not aware of a practical option. Update: it seems that Linux gives some stats about it: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1351186/how-to-debug-usb-c-power-delivery https://askubuntu.com/questions/1351186/how-to-debug-usb-c-p...
Normal_gaussian 5y ago
This looks fantastic. Does anyone know of an opposite tool? One that identifies as a source and works out the demands of a sink? The price is fine, and even just this one would save me loads of debugging efforts at home.
- krasin 5y ago
  The opposite tool exists, it's awesome (on paper, anyway), but I could not afford it ($1200). Meet Acroname USBHub3c Pro: https://acroname.com/store/programmable-industrial-power-delivery-hub-s99-usbhub-3c-pro https://acroname.com/store/programmable-industrial-power-del...

dheera 5y ago

Ugh. USB-C connectors are way, way more fragile than the connectors these power tools used to use. I break about a USB-C cable a week. I bet these things just aren't going to last more than a day or two on a construction site. Power tool connectors should tolerate bricks being dropped on them.

richardfey 5y ago

USB-C receiver ports are subject to wear and tear due to orthogonal applied forces.. Perhaps we will see a mitigation for this?

reportingsjr 5y ago
USB type c is designed to have a weaker plug than a receptacle, so plugs wear out/break faster than the receptacles.
- richardfey 5y ago
  I have seen the opposite effect on Samsung phones, I hope it's an exception.

rektide 5y ago

USB-C -> dc barrel jack cables (or pigtails) are now super cheap on amazon. 5V/9V/12V/15V/20V 3A dc connections from any usb power source. You can basically get rid of any wall wart you want at this point.

Scoundreller 5y ago
Like, my wifi router has a 12V wall wart, but I'm pretty sure the device won't care as long as it gets at least 6V. They probably just found 12V warts to be the cheapest, and then they can run thinner wire between the wart and device. One day I'll get ahold of a pass-through USB battery pack and setup a poor-man's UPS. Extra points if I can hook up a solar panel to it that switches between mains and solar for charging.

hgo 5y ago

This is an honest question: As a European having been to the US and experienced using the power connectors you have, I can't help but immediately wonder why do they design the brick like that? The brick looks quite heavy, so will it actually be possible to use in a wall outlet, or will it, due to the flat pins, fall to the floor? If I put it in a wall outlet wouldn't it definitely block both ports if there are two? (In Europe and elsewhere, the pins are round, thus something connected wouldn't bend out of the socket. Obviously "wall warts" are a pleague here too, but I have never experienced one leaving the socket.) (Maybe I'm sensitive since I was literally shocked after just a couple of days working in a US office, simply connecting a charger under my desk when it sort of bent half way out. I was really surprised how simple it was to get exposed during normal use.)

s0rce 5y ago
In North America if the outlets are relatively new and in good shape there are springs inside that hold the plug in so things don't fall off. With older outlets the springs wear out/loosen and stuff can easily fall out, I've seen the plugs where the prongs are bent slightly outward (flared) so that they hold in the plug even in worn outlets. Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true.
- vetinari 5y ago
  > Most of these bricks can go in the lower plug and not block the upper port although thats not universally true. Can't you put it into the upper socket, upside down? Most bricks do not have grounding, where the third pin would prevent that (or do they in NA?).
  - hoytschermerhrn 5y ago
    Why does the orientation matter if the end result is the same? My point is your suggestion is no better than OPs, so who cares which way the brick points?
    - 5y ago

sdflhasjd 5y ago

Standard charging ports are nice, but USB-C is too delicate for power tools. Barrel connectors were always a bit crap, it would good to have something a bit more robust and standardised to replace them.

johnwalkr 5y ago

Copy of my comment on a now-dead discussion: A charging port right on the pack is a good idea, you can actually get AA li-ion batteries with usb-c charging (and power step down to 1.5V).[1] Also nice for these large batteries that you can use them to charge stuff as well. I’ve got a bunch of Hitachi li-ion power tools, almost 10 years old and the charger for that doubles as a usb power source when a battery is installed[2], but it’s nicer to have the output on the battery itself. V-mount camera batteries often have USB ports for power out as well. These batteries are really nice for robotics projects as they come in a variety of sizes and an extra 5V power supply always comes in handy[3] [1] https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Batteries-Lithi https://www.amazon.com/Deleepow-Rechargeable-Batteries-Lithi... [2] https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/UC18YSL3-Hitachi-Charger-Slidi https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/UC18YSL3-Hitachi-Charger-Slidi... [3] https://tomantosfilms.com/13999/maxoak-v-mount-batteries/ https://tomantosfilms.com/13999/maxoak-v-mount-batteries/

oxplot 5y ago

I wanted to have everything that could use DC power up to 100watt to use USB PD since half a decade ago but adaption has been super slow so I made fpx [1] and sold it in high quantities to essentially subsidize the cost for my own use. I now have roughly 30 devices that have been converted to use USB-C chargers. I can power them all with a single high quality adapter. I can also power them with power banks, or my car! It’s heaven. Having a few adapters means, I always have spares if one of them breaks. To date, I have converted everything from Ryobi battery chargers, shavers, Vinyl cutters and hair straighteners to vacuum cleaner, label printer, old laptops, standing desks, vacuum sealers and work lights. [1]: https://fpx.oxplot.com https://fpx.oxplot.com

yummypaint 5y ago
I have had good results replacing the rectangular thinkpad charging port with USBC configured for 20V delivery. The boards are so small they fit within the footprint of the port, and sugru works well to hold things in place and provide a nice rubber finish. The last piece is using a third party usbc magnetic connector.
vondro 5y ago
This is the coolest project/product I've seen lately. Great idea to program the module via the website (+works offline!). For less ambitious hobbyist projects, there are USB type C decoy modules on Aliexpress for around $1 USD each, in 9V, 12V, 15V and 20V versions. Not programmable, but should do the work.
moreinfoplZ 5y ago
This is incredibly cool information. I’ve dreamed of this for quite some time (though not as long as you). Do you have info about how you converted the shavers, chargers, etc? I would like to know more (and subscribe to your newsletter).
- oxplot 5y ago
  Usually, devices have empty space inside that can be used to fit the fpx board. I then drill some holes to expose the port, mount the board inside with bolts and nuts and wire things up. Sometimes I need to 3D print an enclosure, sometimes I just shrink wrap it inline with the power cord for simplicity. See my sibling comments for when fpx board alone isn't enough.

londons_explore 5y ago

It's now time to extend USB PD from 100 watts to 10 kilowatts. Then it can replace the AC outlet, and make power systems in homes worldwide consistent.

nicbou 5y ago

Can I get a USB-C shaver now? I'm surprised that this is still a rarity, especially with travel shavers.

ksec 5y ago
I have been crying for this for years. Braun just refuse to make one. Panasonic is finally heading to that direction though with their LamDash / Arc 6 Series. Ignore the Xiaomi USB-C shaver, it is crap.