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> why not all AZ? Game theory between US states playing to get the most gov’t assistance? Finite pool of talent? Our plants are in rural areas and everyone i
by flybrand 5y ago
> why not all AZ?
Game theory between US states playing to get the most gov’t assistance?
Finite pool of talent? Our plants are in rural areas and everyone is struggling to hire, from auto to bakeries.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- missedthecue 5y agoOhio is situated on the great lakes and therefore has a lot of cheaply available water, while Arizona does not. Chip production is water intensive. Not to mention the vast expanses of cheap land, and their electricity costs are pretty low as well. These could be reasons.
- jandrese 5y agoI thought that while chip production uses a lot of water, the water is mostly not consumed in the process and due to environmental regulation the water has to be cleaned at the plant so they form a closed loop system. It takes a lot of water when the plant is built, but after that it requires only a small amount of water to continue running.
- adventured 5y agoIt's political distribution, to be called upon as needed. Same reason NASA is sprawled the way it is. You can more easily get numerous Senators to go to bat for you and your various causes (Arizona is a growth state, Ohio still has a lot of clout (not as much as CA, TX, FL obviously)).
- jdhn 5y agoThey're building the plant near Columbus, which isn't near the Great Lakes. If they wanted Great Lakes water they would've chosen Cleveland, which is very close to Lake Erie.
- thehappypm 5y agoAre you from California? It rains a ton in that part of the country, water is not scarce. It’s hard for Californians to wrap their heads around but water is not universally rare.
- RC_ITR 5y agoSemantically, damning water in the Great Lakes Watershed (how Columbus get's its water) is not THAT different from letting that water flow into Lake Erie and then piping it back. Point being, Ohio has very few long-term drought concerns.
- todfox 5y agoColumbus is not in the Lake Erie watershed. It is in the Ohio River watershed. The Great Lakes Compact does not allow Columbus to get its water from Lake Erie.
- giraffe_lady 5y agoThere are actually extremely specific and intense rules about which parts of the country can take water from the great lakes and what burdens they incur when they do. It's not necessarily aligned with any specific jurisdictions either, I believe it's largely based on the boundaries of the watersheds. Or at least where the boundary was ascertained to be at some point. So yes it's very different, regardless of the semantics(?).
- kesselvon 5y agoThe idea that the Great Lakes are going to be tapped to solve water problems outside the watershed is fall flat when they realize those Great Lakes states aren't going to sell off access like that. I remember some moonshot proposal to pipe the water to the Southwest, which is wild.
- Scoundreller 5y agoThere might be redirecting (or excessive drawing) of tributaries though.
- pkulak 5y agoYeah, but they are building in Columbus.
- brewdad 5y agoWater in AZ is some of the cheapest in the country. At least until Lake Powell runs dry. Not a bad idea to spread the risks around however.
- spaetzleesser 5y agoWhen you look at Lake Mead and Lake Powell lately it seems they are well on the path to running dry.
- xxpor 5y agoNo wonder they grow all that lettuce in Yuma. Seems extremely stupid from a long term perspective, but what do I know. I'm just a software guy.
- reaperducer 5y agoAt least until Lake Powell runs dry Which is coming a lot quicker than anyone expected. It's why all of the cities and water authorities hooked up to Powell and the other Colorado River reservoirs are in panic mode these days. Just a few weeks ago, the various states came to an agreement about cutting water use. Lake Mead is at historic lows. There are mandatory federal restrictions either in effect, or about to start.
- ksec 5y agoModern Fabs can recycle its water usage by up to 90%. Electricity cost for Business in both state seems to be about the same. Land are cheap as well ( From what I have been told ). You do get operational efficiency from having Fabs all located within one place. And that is a quote from TSMC's ex-CEO Morris Chang. That is why I wonder if there is something missing. Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket.
- RC_ITR 5y agoArguments can be made that TSMC's choice to consolidate locations is part of the reason that we have a semi shortage right now (concentrated water shortage risk, concentrated worker illness risk, etc. etc.)
- vasili111 5y ago> Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket. I think this is important part. If something happens to one site (problem with electricity, etc) other will work. Also, it maybe easier to find workforce that way. Also it will be good for development for that regions.
- mirker 5y agoOne guess: if the reliability of Intel is considered a national security issue, they may get funding specifically to be more reliable to offset these costs.
- pradn 5y agoAll this sounds irrelevant when an ASML machine costs $100 million a pop.
- vasili111 5y ago> ASML machine costs It seems that cost maybe around $300 million each: https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-on-drawing-board-as-chipmakers-look-for-an-edge/ https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-...
- dralley 5y agoThose are the new high-NA EUV machines. The current gen ones are more in the range of 150 million.
- unchocked 5y agoNational security considerations encourage geographic dispersal of strategic assets.
- SemAntics0 5y agoThe Great Lakes region has a surprising concentration of advanced manufacturing skillsets. With large manufacturing facilities with extremely stringent quality standards like a bleeding edge chip fab there's going to be a enormous need for people with traditional manufacturing-specific support skillsets that are simply not available in large quantities anywhere else in the US. If the current administration's support of the transition to electric vehicles doesn't falter, that's going to drive an increasing need for microprocessors in vehicles. Intel locating themselves in central Ohio puts their production facilities on an interstate highway hub that puts them within a 6-12 hour drive of nearly every major auto manufacturing facility in the US, which is an enormous incentive for the auto manufacturers to source from them. Additionally, Columbus has the Rickenbacker International Airport which is a dedicated air freight airport that lets them get their product global faster. This announcement of two facilities makes me think that Phoenix is going to be a smaller facility handling the more advanced, smaller run chip designs, but host the R&D and design offices (To take advantage of the city's concentration of tech talent) while Columbus is going to be the primary production facility.
- coredog64 5y agoThey’re going to fab there and then ship the output to Malaysia, Costa Rica, or the Philippines for package and test. Being close to Detroit doesn’t count for much.
- galangalalgol 5y agothe only thing an ev actually needs chips for is charge controllers which can be old fab tech, and motor controllers which aren't normal silicon or tiny feature size. Tesla is using silicon carbide, and gallium arsenide will probably be next. The Bollinger takes this route of minimalism. Ironically, an EV has less reliance on processing than a modern ICE vehicle.
- ridgeguy 5y agoI think it's gallium nitride (GaN), not gallium arsenide (GaAs).
- WillPostForFood 5y agoThe Intel plant in AZ plant is in Chandler, which is more suburban than rural - it can draw on much of the Phoenix Metro population (4.5million) for hiring.
- uoaei 5y agoSucking the Colorado river dry probably has a lot to do with it. Taiwan was (is still?) in a drought and semiconductor manufacturing requires so much fresh water that TSMC was bringing in huge tanks on ships from the mainland.
- dillondoyle 5y agoI agree about the game theory/race to the bottom as an incentive. I think there are more great reasons compounding these decisions that others point out too. Large corporations love to hold cities and states hostage and make them bid against each other. AMZN is a great example with their campus 2 bidding war. I am glad NY had the cajones to stand up to them. Most cities and states even have dedicated EcoDevo staff to actively seek out these companies. Cities and states compete to give the largest tax benefits, usually something like you don't have to pay ___ taxes for __ years (like 10, worth tens of millions). Plus they'll spend on infrastructure and give preferential zoning, city regs, etc. Sure having more jobs probably creates more incoming/housing taxes for the city. But states like Texas win this race to the bottom (TSLA and Musk personally) and in my opinion the costs of these corporate incentives (imho handouts) are just passed along to citizens in the cost of less societal services and needs, less school funding, less everything. Just a funnel up.
- nebula8804 5y agoMusk may be an outlier. He is part of a collective of libertarian techbros who have taken what they can out of California and are now looking for a new set of suckers. Texas has a history of playing second fiddle to California so they were an obvious choice. Yes other tech companies are also moving to Austin and I think that is more a sign of some millennials and other young professionals opting to leave California for a lower cost reasonably sane area. Its still does not seem like massive California sized numbers though. We just have to wait and see. I'm still long California though.
- nebula8804 5y ago>Our plants are in rural areas and everyone is struggling to hire, from auto to bakeries. This is a solved problem isn't it? Just pay people more and treat them with dignity and respect. The pandemic has given a lot of people the opportunity to realize that they do not have to settle for poorly paid jobs that treat people poorly. You should have realized and adjusted by now. If you cannot accommodate to these requirements, then you have no place in this market anymore. Just close up shop and move on.
- barsonme 5y agoThat’s true if you’re talking about, like, Burger King or something. But even places that treat their workers well are even having problems. Not everything is black and white.
- nebula8804 5y agoCan you give some examples? From what I see, most of the lack of supply is at the unskilled level.
- barsonme 5y agoWhere I live—the Seattle area—it appears most or many places are having staffing issues. From basic grocery stores to higher-end New Seasons/Metropolitan Market type stores, for example. Same with restaurants. Heck, it’s even difficult to hire software engineers right now.