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This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can u

This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent. My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.

amelius 5y ago
> If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore justified.
CoastalCoder 5y ago
I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
- lupire 5y ago
  Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
  - CoastalCoder 5y ago
    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. (Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
  - flerchin 5y ago
    I got a check for $3.02.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - pooper 5y ago
      I still haven't gotten my check from the iPhone 6 battery scandal. I still have the phone. It is forever stuck on the wall now. They have no incentive to hurry up I guess.
      - CoastalCoder 5y ago
        IANAL, but I've heard that if you let the court know about situations like this, they'll often provide the necessary motivation to the responsible parties.
    - int_19h 5y ago
      I suspect that in terms of actual value lost and never properly compensated, this kind of thing is second-largest source of property theft in our economy, right after all the unpaid wages. Just serves to remind that whenever we talk of governments protecting property rights, it's always worth clarifying whose rights they are actually protecting, and who is SOL.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished. The flexibility is valuable. For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones. And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
    - iomcr 5y ago
      > And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.
- BTCOG 5y ago
  This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    Upon which we found out that not supporting Linux on the PS3 slim from the get go "because they wanted to focus on games and it was too much effort" was a lie - turns out there was almost nothing extra that needed to be done for it to work on that model too, once the hacks were in place.
- sli 5y ago
  Absolutely agree. I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
- theshrike79 5y ago
  IIRC the Linux support was there solely so that Sony could circumvent tariffs in the EU. Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.
svnpenn 5y ago
This is why I disable updates for every piece of software that I use. People criticize this often, but it puts me in control. I can then review updates when I feel like it, and update as I see fit.
- colinmhayes 5y ago
  I don't think the updates on this treadmill could be disabled. You have to connect it to the internet to use the screen and if it's connected it's getting updated.
- npteljes 5y ago
  Linux and LineageOS are godsends in this regard too. I even like to maintain, update my things from time to time, but not always, and definitely not when Mr. Windows thinks it's the best thing to do right before my gaming time. Last time the stupid thing made me miss the time by half an hour, when all of my friends were waiting for me. I'm still salty about that.
datavirtue 5y ago
My feeling is that this is a temporary thing that leverages previous generations propensity for compliance and happily being controlled and screwed over constantly. I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their customers yet.
imoverclocked 5y ago
This pattern is pervasive. I also dislike needing an app and an internet connection for the most basic functionality with some purchased device. At some point, we need to own the things we buy and that line keeps getting pushed back further and further. Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the company's service. The device even has local bluetooth capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage data about customers boiling water."
- javajosh 5y ago
  Not interesting data. The real reason is that it's easier to connect things through a central service. I sometimes email myself for the same reason.
  - ectopod 5y ago
    This is true for things that are connected to the network anyway. It is not true for unconnected devices controlled by Bluetooth. The gratuitous app login is straightforwardly malign.
    - javajosh 5y ago
      Speaking from personal experience, I am far more comfortable with a web interface than a BT interface. If I were hired to write code for an IoT kitchen thing I'd probably implement a web thing, rather than a BT thing. That would not be malicious on my part, just laziness (if you're being unkind), or pragmatism (if you're being kind).
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Why did you buy that?
  - imoverclocked 5y ago
omnimus 5y ago
It’s not that i dont agree but the Terraria example is a bit unfair. First this is issue of the platform. On other platforms you can choose version of the game. And second Terraria is example of probably one of the most supported games. The update you are talking about brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!! after release. Most companies would milk the product with third sequel and dozens DLCs by that time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- suifbwish 5y ago
  No it’s totally fair. They ruined the game by completely changing the controls irreversibly and making it unplayable on mobile.
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  I'm not trying to pick on Terraria, but I think it's a great example for the reasons you are bringing up. Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed all value for me, and I'm the one who made the decision to buy it. If the product is changed significantly after purchase without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-and-switch scheme.
  - hfsh 5y ago
    > without my consent Not having read the TOS of the platform (or even ever having used it), I'll hazard a guess this isn't quite legally true.
    - gorjusborg 5y ago
      Not sure if you are intending to, but that only further illustrates how broken (in the favor of corporations) the current legal environment is. You are right in that there probably is a gotcha, you agreed clause in the text that is displayed after I have purchased the item. I also think the idea that is legally binding a farce. Imagine how popular buying things would be if people actually had to read those agreements.
paulryanrogers 5y ago
Can you remap the controls? IIRC my PS4 allowed swapping buttons and sticks at least. Not sure if those were per game though.
mastazi 5y ago
> I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV, Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long process to follow in order to get the device to do what I needed[1], which involved activating developer mode, sideloading apps etc. In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu on it and never looked back. [1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device
- givinguflac 5y ago
  Genuinely curious, did you feel anything was missing from Apple TV besides a web browser? I feel it’s perfect for our uses but I always like to know if I’m missing something. Personally I don’t like web browsing on TV but AirPlay fills that gap when it’s needed.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    I have to say that Apple TV sucked less than the alternatives but it's also the most inflexible in the sense that it's harder to "jailbreak", so for example if Apple decides that the home page will now be filled with ads rather than icons, I won't be able to do anything about it whereas in Google TV and Fire TV you can sideload an unofficial launcher if you want. Compare this with my current solution where I can just change OS or desktop environment if I feel like it. Another aspect is the fact that smart TV apps are sometimes not as good as their desktop counterparts. For example the YouTube app on most smart TV platforms does not support viewing show notes or comments. So every time the person in the video says "link in the notes below"... you are missing out on that link. Another example: I like watching martial arts, both the UFC web app and the FloGrappling web app have additional features that are not found in their smart-tv-app counterparts. Another big one for me, is the fact that in a desktop environment I have better multitasking and I can use browser tabs. For example if I find a Youtube channel I'm interested in, and I see a couple videos that I would like to watch, I just open them in a new tab. On a smart TV you would have to add them to watch later, then go to your library and find them, it's just not as immediate. Another point is gaming, I am recycling old computer parts that I removed from my gaming PC when doing upgrades, these are relatively old parts but still pretty good, so you can run triple-A desktop games with pretty decent quality, whereas the type of games available for download on smart TVs are mostly just ports of mobile games. I also installed RetroPie which is quite fun! Then there is hardware upgradeability. Recently I was thinking to add a faster CPU, and then the CPU that is now in the HTPC will go into my NAS since the one I have in the NAS is quite slow. You can't do any of that with a smart TV dongle, all the parts are soldered to the main board :-) One more thing I like is that it's easier to watch content using alternative clients, for example I watch YouTube videos using the FreeTube app, on Smart TV platforms you might be able to find some alternative clients but the choice is more limited. EDIT - rephrased some parts as they were not clear
beckman466 5y ago
> My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products. Welcome to the Right to Repair movement!
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
Why don’t the customers use a tablet resting on the treadmill or wall-mounted TV to watch whatever they want?
- francisofascii 5y ago
  That is not always practical. Also, why purchase a tablet or install a wall mounted screen, when there is a perfectly good screen right in front of you.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Because unless screen doesn't display what you want it to. It's useless.
    - iomcr 5y ago
      But they paid for the $4,000 treadmill, not expecting it to magically become the $400 treadmill.
- mikestew 5y ago
  Tablets can bounce around on a treadmill if you really get going, and 10" is not 32". And you think customers are going to wall-mount a TV in the garage where a lot of treadmills live, rather than just buy a built-in screen? I mean, yeah, that's exactly what I did, but not everyone (not but a few?) are even that handy. And on top of everything else, customers thought that they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32" LCD screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    > Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in? Because unless the screen displays what you want it to, it's useless?
ohgodplsno 5y ago
> Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent. Overreacting aside, control schemes can be customized again in 1.4.
ljm 5y ago
The problem with 'smart' devices I think is something akin to a conflict of interest. On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to own and control. On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the sub. The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own. I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another 40 a month.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  It feels like these should be rentals that require a monthly fee but no upfront cost.
  - NeuNeurosis 5y ago
    This is exactly what I thought when I saw the commercial. Its incredible that so many people are willing to pay that upfront cost.
suifbwish 5y ago
Dear god don’t get me started on mobile terraria. They completely ruined the gameplay. Common sense would tell any product team to at least provide the option to switch back to the old interface (they didn’t add or take away anything that would disallow this) but NO. I started playing it because it was fun, simple and easy to learn/play, now the controls have been completely ruined for mobile.
- politician 5y ago
  I just bought Terraria a couple days ago to see what it was all about. After 20 minutes of futzing about with it on my iPad, I deleted it because it was so terrible to control. Now to learn that the developers only recently released an update to a 9 year old game that broke once working controls. Wild!
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    You're not buying new games if you're enjoying nine-year-old games. Did you know that before The Phantom Menace, then-20-year-old Star Wars would compete with new movies at rental shops? I personally believe that this is why Star Wars was "updated": it was too resilient to being replaced. The rental place didn't need to buy so many new copies of new movies when they could keep making money on old Star Wars. So the studios needed a way to make Star Wars less appealing.
    - suifbwish 5y ago
      Of all the theories I have heard on why Star Wars was ruined (I agree) this is the first I’ve heard of this one :) . Politics aside, money does often seem to be the biggest motivator for creation and destruction of things. It is inherently not progressive to have one thing that is built perfectly and never needs to be altered or repaired. Progression often seems to be more of a quest for change for its own sake rather than improvement. Something isn’t profitable if it has no planned obsolescence.
amatecha 5y ago
Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example. Why can software vendors change out the total functionality of a piece of software you paid for? Especially irreversibly, in the case of DRM-laden platforms like game consoles, iOS, etc. where you cannot undo an update once it's installed, or cannot refuse an update if you want to actually use the software. Recently an iOS app I use almost daily pushed an update that removes a feature I relied on. The dev has never fixed the issue and has made other minor changes since, subtly indicating their change is intentional and permanent, so I'm just screwed forever and lost a core piece of functionality I depended on. Great. This is fine.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example. Actually, they can. There was a huge airbag recall a few years ago, affecting maybe half a dozen automobile manufacturers because they all bought their airbags from the same supplier. In at least one case, the dash had to be modified in order to fit a replacement airbag because drop-in replacements could not be procured quickly without disrupting new car production. It would not surprise me if some of the cases also required modifying or replacing the steering wheel.
  - NeuNeurosis 5y ago
    How is this relevant? The owner has to physically bring the vehicle into the dealer. The dealer can't change or replace anything while it is in my garage or driving down the street. There are physical barriers that require the owners consent beyond checking a box.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      You are correct, the vehicle manufacturer cannot come and take the dash away. However, under literal threat of metal shrapnel exploding in one's face [1], I would argue that the consumer is coerced with great bodily harm to present his vehicle for service. [1] https://www.classaction.com/takata-airbags/ https://www.classaction.com/takata-airbags/
yyyk 5y ago
There are reasons behind updates and auto-updates. Bugs, features, users which did not consistently update and were left with insecure or buggy software. Then again, updates are also a mess. I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.
- rurp 5y ago
  Companies could unbundle security patches from UX updates if they wanted to. For the software I use regularly, I pretty much always want security updates and never want UI/UX changes. Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user. Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update why wouldn't a profit maximizing company make changes to increase its bottom line, regardless of how it helps or hurts users?
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    In a lot of software I worked with, unbundling core and UI would've been an immense amount of effort. You basically have the option to either maintain two GUIs side-by-side - including integrating new concepts (think, for example, supporting OTP and creating the workflow) and updating both for datastructure changes - or you never update your UX at all. At worst, you end up in a situation where your two GUIs support a distinct set of features. You can correctly accuse companies of a lot of things, but decoupling the UX really is a very hard problem.
deleted 5y ago
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vlunkr 5y ago
It's a tangent, but it's incredible to me that people used to ship video games and other software on physical media and it worked fine. Now you can drop a big turd on the steam store initially and it's just business as usual. Cynicism aside, I really do admire the dev and QA teams that pulled this off. It's such a different world now.
- MonaroVXR 5y ago
  I've read somewhere that it wasn't always the case that something worked flawlessly on physical media. Things are way different now.
  - rckoepke 5y ago
    Indeed. The old MacAddict magazine shipped a CD with every issue. The CD contained loads of shareware/games/utilities/productivity software etc. The CD also had a folder named "updates and patches" where you could find installers for the latest bug fixes of the most popular MacOS software. CDs bundled with monthly magazines was a valid conduit for getting patches to users at the time.
    - habeebtc 5y ago
      Some 360 games shipped with console updates as well. Required to be applied before you could play the game.
- Gigachad 5y ago
  Take a look at the games from that era and the games you get right now. Sure, more has changed than just being able to update things, but the ability to fix issues later and continually update games has lead to much much better games with way more content. And you can always chose to wait a year for everything to settle.
  - ipaddr 5y ago
    I'm still playing older games. What new games do you recommend?
MonaroVXR 5y ago
> if part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. What about your other devices?
andrewla 5y ago
I don't necessarily see where "customer consent" really enters the picture. Even if installing updates were optional, at some point you almost certainly want to install the updates, as it will contain bug fixes and enhancements in other areas of the product. This is much more a question of relying on "off-label" feature / bugs in a product, which will always be an issue. The problem here is that the advertised experience was "you can only use our content" and that should have been enough to scare off potential buyers from considering it as an option.
pryelluw 5y ago
Can’t imagine buying a spoon that will only work with Campbell’s soul. Of course, some tech bro will say that their spoon2.0 is specially engineered for the best soup flavor …
- makeitdouble 5y ago
  That's a different debate IMO. Not so long ago we had external storage that only worked with Sony products. We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones. Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.
  - xvector 5y ago
    > We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones. AirPods can be used with any phone just fine. Engineering work has been done to make them to integrate deeply into Apple's OSes, but you can definitely use them on any phone.
    - makeitdouble 5y ago
      I was thinking about the wired lightning ones. If we’re speaking wireless accessories I would have gone with the watch.
questiondev 5y ago
i agree, if you buy something, you buy it for how it is, now sometimes we may want to update for our benefit but other times maybe not, maybe updating would cause more harm than help. therefore we should have to consent to updates, i 100% agree with this and it’s not even that much code to add a “is it cool if we update?” alert.
rapind 5y ago
PCs too. I’ve lost hours to OSX updates that bricked my dev setup (making me reinstall / compile libraries, disabling my second monitor, etc.). First thing I do is turn off auto update and wait for releases to bake for a while and until I have enough time to deal with any breakages. Not great for security though…
greysphere 5y ago
If you bought a physical disk version, why not just reinstall it?
- chii 5y ago
  iirc, the way PS works is to enforce an update if your PS detects that you got an out-of-date game (unless you don't connect to the internet).
pabs3 5y ago
One option is to never buy hardware where you haven't installed the OS/software yourself and therefore have control over updates. This is kind of limiting though since lots of hardware doesn't support installing your own OS and Linux/BSD/etc don't support various hardware.
Semaphor 5y ago
> This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage. I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voice interface.
- xvector 5y ago
  > That is why I call [smart] devices 'dumb' devices "Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    You are right, I should call them stupid. But calling them smart is also confusing when most of them aren’t, with the "smart" part being on a remote server.
deleted 5y ago
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matheusmoreira 5y ago
But if you do that how could the poor company possibly make any money? How could it collect and monetize your private information? How could it advertise to you? How could it own you and sell access to you to other companies who want to reach you?
adreamingsoul 5y ago
I similar avoid purchasing devices that I can’t have full ownership of. I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy. For example, I have several digital cinema film cameras that I do not plan to upgrade or sell. Unfortunately they are showing their age and have some fixable faults. I have spent the last two years to reverse engineering these cameras to identify the fault. If only I had a schematic. I don’t expect the industry or politics to change any time soon. If only a hardware company could change the status quo by enabling their customers to be enabled to have full ownership and access.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy. Hardware in the old Soviet states came with all the blueprints and engineering schematics to fabricate replacement parts in the field.
scrubs 5y ago
For those of us are were of age when the internet and (later) big-data became a thing, we can only applaud the work of so many smart people. We see engineering plus entrepreneurship at its best. The varied inversion, however, of who has the majority control of an object or service post-purchase has lately gone to the provider not customer. Folks, that's a problem. We've seen this, - here - John Deer self-fix stories - Apple store stories (and Android/Google variations) - Several flavors of techs at places like best buy quivering in their boots at an Apple fix. Techs keep blabbering on about Apple repair policy and what they cannot do. I finally had to tell the guy: Start telling me what you can do, or I'll talk to somebody else. All I asked for was if they have a screw driver to take the bottom plate off, which I later got off Amazon. - General issues of privacy We gotta get back to customer satisfaction. Eventually --- not as quick as we might prefer --- customers will realize they have the stronger position and use it. Indeed, if I plunk down money for an object, my assessment counts. I do not accept some paper pusher a large-corp-America gainsaying that.
sfg 5y ago
Don't connect them to the internet.
LdSGSgvupDV 5y ago
Even if it is software, I don't want automatically updating. The problem introduced by automatically updating is higher than the problem they fixed in my experience. For example, windows updating. There was an updating when professor gave the talk in class. Windows updating popped out. There is no way for professor to stop the updating. He missed the chance and windows already went into blue updating screen. So, We had a break, and professor went to his office to find another computer. Another problem is that automatically updating almost always runs silently. When I played online game and the game went laggy, I always tabbed out to see what happened with resource monitor. It is easy to find out there is whatever updating using CPU or bandwidth. I feel updating just like legally raping my device. Oh. It is OUR device.
- m1gu3l 5y ago
  Frustrating for sure… but equating this to rape induces eye rolling.
d1sxeyes 5y ago
I bought Elite Dangerous, played it loads, really enjoyed it. One day, they said 'we're no longer supporting MacOS'. Fine, I thought... except it turns out even their single player mode needs to be online to work, and they were disabling that as well. No refunds, no apologies, just a game I'd paid 50 dollars for suddenly didn't work any more. Ultimately, still value for money given how many hours I'd ploughed into it before they broke it, but yeah, I think twice now about that kind of purchase.
asxd 5y ago
I bought a sleep number bed, and now after like 2 years, suddenly one of the bedsides has decided to completely deflate around 5am every night, waking me up and forcing me to open up my phone and tell it to reinflate. I haven't contacted the company yet (out of laziness I guess), but I mean... it's a bed. A thing I lay on. Definitely turned me off to smart products, at least ones that worked perfectly fine as dumb devices.

amelius 5y ago

> If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.

gorjusborg 5y ago
I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore justified.

CoastalCoder 5y ago

I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction. The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.

lupire 5y ago
Overturned on appeal and then settled for $65/user.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. (Cue next rant about class-action settlements. To make me whole, Sony would have needed to give me a full refund (with interest) or restore Linux compatibility.)
- flerchin 5y ago
  I got a check for $3.02.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - pooper 5y ago
    I still haven't gotten my check from the iPhone 6 battery scandal. I still have the phone. It is forever stuck on the wall now. They have no incentive to hurry up I guess.
    - CoastalCoder 5y ago
      IANAL, but I've heard that if you let the court know about situations like this, they'll often provide the necessary motivation to the responsible parties.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    I suspect that in terms of actual value lost and never properly compensated, this kind of thing is second-largest source of property theft in our economy, right after all the unpaid wages. Just serves to remind that whenever we talk of governments protecting property rights, it's always worth clarifying whose rights they are actually protecting, and who is SOL.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware. I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished. The flexibility is valuable. For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Definitely. TV updates are another thing. They change things with abandon and you can't revoke the updates. Sometimes they break stuff and then you have to pray and wait until they hopefully fix them at their leisure. IMO, it should be illegal to issue unrevokable updates so you can't get a product to have identical features as it did at the time of purchase. You should always be able to wipe it back to stock. Same with phones. And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want.
  - iomcr 5y ago
    > And the people who might crow about "security" - my device, my rules. I can block it on the network if I want. We've entered a sad dystopia when the manufacturer is the leading security threat to the integrity of my personal devices.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    That's exactly why I personally try to stay away from as many of these things/devices as I can reasonably do. TV: just don't buy an actual TV. Buy a monitor and hook it up to a Linux box with something like Kodi. You can hook up your cable box if you have that or stream from Netflix and such. Sure, even Netflix makes it hard as you can't get 5.1 surround but I'll take that and 2.0 -> 5.1 upmix over buying a Smart TV any day! Games: Kerbal Space program sounds fun. Lots of mentions on HN. Apparently after some company bought them up changes of this sort have been made. So I decided against getting it even though I would probably very much enjoy playing it. Don't buy games like that. Buy games like Factorio or some GoG stuff (the ones that actually do work on your current Windows OS if that's what you use ... ;)) and do not buy into the GoG Galaxy thing. Get the installers. Otherwise that's like falling for Steam or Xbox Live or whatever the "Windows Live" BS is called nowadays. Tablets and Phones: Use them for what they're good for: Making phone calls and browsing the web on the go. Apps are a curse, I avoid installing them as much as possible. Some exceptions prove the rule, like a free GPS tracker app for hiking created by a single guy. UI looks like it's out of the 90s but works for my use case. Found it because the other app I used started requiring a login even for the free part of the app. I refuse to bow to such things.
BTCOG 5y ago
This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.
- marcan_42 5y ago
  Upon which we found out that not supporting Linux on the PS3 slim from the get go "because they wanted to focus on games and it was too much effort" was a lie - turns out there was almost nothing extra that needed to be done for it to work on that model too, once the hacks were in place.
sli 5y ago
Absolutely agree. I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
theshrike79 5y ago
IIRC the Linux support was there solely so that Sony could circumvent tariffs in the EU. Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.

svnpenn 5y ago

This is why I disable updates for every piece of software that I use. People criticize this often, but it puts me in control. I can then review updates when I feel like it, and update as I see fit.

colinmhayes 5y ago
I don't think the updates on this treadmill could be disabled. You have to connect it to the internet to use the screen and if it's connected it's getting updated.
npteljes 5y ago
Linux and LineageOS are godsends in this regard too. I even like to maintain, update my things from time to time, but not always, and definitely not when Mr. Windows thinks it's the best thing to do right before my gaming time. Last time the stupid thing made me miss the time by half an hour, when all of my friends were waiting for me. I'm still salty about that.

datavirtue 5y ago

My feeling is that this is a temporary thing that leverages previous generations propensity for compliance and happily being controlled and screwed over constantly. I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their customers yet.

imoverclocked 5y ago

This pattern is pervasive. I also dislike needing an app and an internet connection for the most basic functionality with some purchased device. At some point, we need to own the things we buy and that line keeps getting pushed back further and further. Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the company's service. The device even has local bluetooth capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage data about customers boiling water."

javajosh 5y ago
Not interesting data. The real reason is that it's easier to connect things through a central service. I sometimes email myself for the same reason.
- ectopod 5y ago
  This is true for things that are connected to the network anyway. It is not true for unconnected devices controlled by Bluetooth. The gratuitous app login is straightforwardly malign.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Speaking from personal experience, I am far more comfortable with a web interface than a BT interface. If I were hired to write code for an IoT kitchen thing I'd probably implement a web thing, rather than a BT thing. That would not be malicious on my part, just laziness (if you're being unkind), or pragmatism (if you're being kind).
TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
Why did you buy that?
- imoverclocked 5y ago

omnimus 5y ago

It’s not that i dont agree but the Terraria example is a bit unfair. First this is issue of the platform. On other platforms you can choose version of the game. And second Terraria is example of probably one of the most supported games. The update you are talking about brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!! after release. Most companies would milk the product with third sequel and dozens DLCs by that time.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
suifbwish 5y ago
No it’s totally fair. They ruined the game by completely changing the controls irreversibly and making it unplayable on mobile.
gorjusborg 5y ago
I'm not trying to pick on Terraria, but I think it's a great example for the reasons you are bringing up. Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed all value for me, and I'm the one who made the decision to buy it. If the product is changed significantly after purchase without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-and-switch scheme.
- hfsh 5y ago
  > without my consent Not having read the TOS of the platform (or even ever having used it), I'll hazard a guess this isn't quite legally true.
  - gorjusborg 5y ago
    Not sure if you are intending to, but that only further illustrates how broken (in the favor of corporations) the current legal environment is. You are right in that there probably is a gotcha, you agreed clause in the text that is displayed after I have purchased the item. I also think the idea that is legally binding a farce. Imagine how popular buying things would be if people actually had to read those agreements.

paulryanrogers 5y ago

Can you remap the controls? IIRC my PS4 allowed swapping buttons and sticks at least. Not sure if those were per game though.

mastazi 5y ago

> I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV, Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long process to follow in order to get the device to do what I needed[1], which involved activating developer mode, sideloading apps etc. In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu on it and never looked back. [1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device

givinguflac 5y ago
Genuinely curious, did you feel anything was missing from Apple TV besides a web browser? I feel it’s perfect for our uses but I always like to know if I’m missing something. Personally I don’t like web browsing on TV but AirPlay fills that gap when it’s needed.
- mastazi 5y ago
  I have to say that Apple TV sucked less than the alternatives but it's also the most inflexible in the sense that it's harder to "jailbreak", so for example if Apple decides that the home page will now be filled with ads rather than icons, I won't be able to do anything about it whereas in Google TV and Fire TV you can sideload an unofficial launcher if you want. Compare this with my current solution where I can just change OS or desktop environment if I feel like it. Another aspect is the fact that smart TV apps are sometimes not as good as their desktop counterparts. For example the YouTube app on most smart TV platforms does not support viewing show notes or comments. So every time the person in the video says "link in the notes below"... you are missing out on that link. Another example: I like watching martial arts, both the UFC web app and the FloGrappling web app have additional features that are not found in their smart-tv-app counterparts. Another big one for me, is the fact that in a desktop environment I have better multitasking and I can use browser tabs. For example if I find a Youtube channel I'm interested in, and I see a couple videos that I would like to watch, I just open them in a new tab. On a smart TV you would have to add them to watch later, then go to your library and find them, it's just not as immediate. Another point is gaming, I am recycling old computer parts that I removed from my gaming PC when doing upgrades, these are relatively old parts but still pretty good, so you can run triple-A desktop games with pretty decent quality, whereas the type of games available for download on smart TVs are mostly just ports of mobile games. I also installed RetroPie which is quite fun! Then there is hardware upgradeability. Recently I was thinking to add a faster CPU, and then the CPU that is now in the HTPC will go into my NAS since the one I have in the NAS is quite slow. You can't do any of that with a smart TV dongle, all the parts are soldered to the main board :-) One more thing I like is that it's easier to watch content using alternative clients, for example I watch YouTube videos using the FreeTube app, on Smart TV platforms you might be able to find some alternative clients but the choice is more limited. EDIT - rephrased some parts as they were not clear

beckman466 5y ago

> My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products. Welcome to the Right to Repair movement!

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago

Why don’t the customers use a tablet resting on the treadmill or wall-mounted TV to watch whatever they want?

francisofascii 5y ago
That is not always practical. Also, why purchase a tablet or install a wall mounted screen, when there is a perfectly good screen right in front of you.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  Because unless screen doesn't display what you want it to. It's useless.
  - iomcr 5y ago
    But they paid for the $4,000 treadmill, not expecting it to magically become the $400 treadmill.
mikestew 5y ago
Tablets can bounce around on a treadmill if you really get going, and 10" is not 32". And you think customers are going to wall-mount a TV in the garage where a lot of treadmills live, rather than just buy a built-in screen? I mean, yeah, that's exactly what I did, but not everyone (not but a few?) are even that handy. And on top of everything else, customers thought that they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32" LCD screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  > Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in? Because unless the screen displays what you want it to, it's useless?

ohgodplsno 5y ago

> Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent. Overreacting aside, control schemes can be customized again in 1.4.

ljm 5y ago

The problem with 'smart' devices I think is something akin to a conflict of interest. On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to own and control. On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the sub. The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own. I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another 40 a month.

ipaddr 5y ago
It feels like these should be rentals that require a monthly fee but no upfront cost.
- NeuNeurosis 5y ago
  This is exactly what I thought when I saw the commercial. Its incredible that so many people are willing to pay that upfront cost.

suifbwish 5y ago

Dear god don’t get me started on mobile terraria. They completely ruined the gameplay. Common sense would tell any product team to at least provide the option to switch back to the old interface (they didn’t add or take away anything that would disallow this) but NO. I started playing it because it was fun, simple and easy to learn/play, now the controls have been completely ruined for mobile.

politician 5y ago
I just bought Terraria a couple days ago to see what it was all about. After 20 minutes of futzing about with it on my iPad, I deleted it because it was so terrible to control. Now to learn that the developers only recently released an update to a 9 year old game that broke once working controls. Wild!
- dotancohen 5y ago
  You're not buying new games if you're enjoying nine-year-old games. Did you know that before The Phantom Menace, then-20-year-old Star Wars would compete with new movies at rental shops? I personally believe that this is why Star Wars was "updated": it was too resilient to being replaced. The rental place didn't need to buy so many new copies of new movies when they could keep making money on old Star Wars. So the studios needed a way to make Star Wars less appealing.
  - suifbwish 5y ago
    Of all the theories I have heard on why Star Wars was ruined (I agree) this is the first I’ve heard of this one :) . Politics aside, money does often seem to be the biggest motivator for creation and destruction of things. It is inherently not progressive to have one thing that is built perfectly and never needs to be altered or repaired. Progression often seems to be more of a quest for change for its own sake rather than improvement. Something isn’t profitable if it has no planned obsolescence.

amatecha 5y ago

Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example. Why can software vendors change out the total functionality of a piece of software you paid for? Especially irreversibly, in the case of DRM-laden platforms like game consoles, iOS, etc. where you cannot undo an update once it's installed, or cannot refuse an update if you want to actually use the software. Recently an iOS app I use almost daily pushed an update that removes a feature I relied on. The dev has never fixed the issue and has made other minor changes since, subtly indicating their change is intentional and permanent, so I'm just screwed forever and lost a core piece of functionality I depended on. Great. This is fine.

dotancohen 5y ago
> Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example. Actually, they can. There was a huge airbag recall a few years ago, affecting maybe half a dozen automobile manufacturers because they all bought their airbags from the same supplier. In at least one case, the dash had to be modified in order to fit a replacement airbag because drop-in replacements could not be procured quickly without disrupting new car production. It would not surprise me if some of the cases also required modifying or replacing the steering wheel.
- NeuNeurosis 5y ago
  How is this relevant? The owner has to physically bring the vehicle into the dealer. The dealer can't change or replace anything while it is in my garage or driving down the street. There are physical barriers that require the owners consent beyond checking a box.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    You are correct, the vehicle manufacturer cannot come and take the dash away. However, under literal threat of metal shrapnel exploding in one's face [1], I would argue that the consumer is coerced with great bodily harm to present his vehicle for service. [1] https://www.classaction.com/takata-airbags/ https://www.classaction.com/takata-airbags/

yyyk 5y ago

There are reasons behind updates and auto-updates. Bugs, features, users which did not consistently update and were left with insecure or buggy software. Then again, updates are also a mess. I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.

rurp 5y ago
Companies could unbundle security patches from UX updates if they wanted to. For the software I use regularly, I pretty much always want security updates and never want UI/UX changes. Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user. Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update why wouldn't a profit maximizing company make changes to increase its bottom line, regardless of how it helps or hurts users?
- Sebb767 5y ago
  In a lot of software I worked with, unbundling core and UI would've been an immense amount of effort. You basically have the option to either maintain two GUIs side-by-side - including integrating new concepts (think, for example, supporting OTP and creating the workflow) and updating both for datastructure changes - or you never update your UX at all. At worst, you end up in a situation where your two GUIs support a distinct set of features. You can correctly accuse companies of a lot of things, but decoupling the UX really is a very hard problem.

deleted 5y ago

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vlunkr 5y ago

It's a tangent, but it's incredible to me that people used to ship video games and other software on physical media and it worked fine. Now you can drop a big turd on the steam store initially and it's just business as usual. Cynicism aside, I really do admire the dev and QA teams that pulled this off. It's such a different world now.

MonaroVXR 5y ago
I've read somewhere that it wasn't always the case that something worked flawlessly on physical media. Things are way different now.
- rckoepke 5y ago
  Indeed. The old MacAddict magazine shipped a CD with every issue. The CD contained loads of shareware/games/utilities/productivity software etc. The CD also had a folder named "updates and patches" where you could find installers for the latest bug fixes of the most popular MacOS software. CDs bundled with monthly magazines was a valid conduit for getting patches to users at the time.
  - habeebtc 5y ago
    Some 360 games shipped with console updates as well. Required to be applied before you could play the game.
Gigachad 5y ago
Take a look at the games from that era and the games you get right now. Sure, more has changed than just being able to update things, but the ability to fix issues later and continually update games has lead to much much better games with way more content. And you can always chose to wait a year for everything to settle.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  I'm still playing older games. What new games do you recommend?

MonaroVXR 5y ago

> if part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period. What about your other devices?

andrewla 5y ago

I don't necessarily see where "customer consent" really enters the picture. Even if installing updates were optional, at some point you almost certainly want to install the updates, as it will contain bug fixes and enhancements in other areas of the product. This is much more a question of relying on "off-label" feature / bugs in a product, which will always be an issue. The problem here is that the advertised experience was "you can only use our content" and that should have been enough to scare off potential buyers from considering it as an option.

pryelluw 5y ago

Can’t imagine buying a spoon that will only work with Campbell’s soul. Of course, some tech bro will say that their spoon2.0 is specially engineered for the best soup flavor …

makeitdouble 5y ago
That's a different debate IMO. Not so long ago we had external storage that only worked with Sony products. We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones. Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.
- xvector 5y ago
  > We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones. AirPods can be used with any phone just fine. Engineering work has been done to make them to integrate deeply into Apple's OSes, but you can definitely use them on any phone.
  - makeitdouble 5y ago
    I was thinking about the wired lightning ones. If we’re speaking wireless accessories I would have gone with the watch.

questiondev 5y ago

i agree, if you buy something, you buy it for how it is, now sometimes we may want to update for our benefit but other times maybe not, maybe updating would cause more harm than help. therefore we should have to consent to updates, i 100% agree with this and it’s not even that much code to add a “is it cool if we update?” alert.

rapind 5y ago

PCs too. I’ve lost hours to OSX updates that bricked my dev setup (making me reinstall / compile libraries, disabling my second monitor, etc.). First thing I do is turn off auto update and wait for releases to bake for a while and until I have enough time to deal with any breakages. Not great for security though…

greysphere 5y ago

If you bought a physical disk version, why not just reinstall it?

chii 5y ago
iirc, the way PS works is to enforce an update if your PS detects that you got an out-of-date game (unless you don't connect to the internet).

pabs3 5y ago

One option is to never buy hardware where you haven't installed the OS/software yourself and therefore have control over updates. This is kind of limiting though since lots of hardware doesn't support installing your own OS and Linux/BSD/etc don't support various hardware.

Semaphor 5y ago

> This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices. That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage. I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voice interface.

xvector 5y ago
> That is why I call [smart] devices 'dumb' devices "Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.
- Semaphor 5y ago
  You are right, I should call them stupid. But calling them smart is also confusing when most of them aren’t, with the "smart" part being on a remote server.

deleted 5y ago

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matheusmoreira 5y ago

But if you do that how could the poor company possibly make any money? How could it collect and monetize your private information? How could it advertise to you? How could it own you and sell access to you to other companies who want to reach you?

adreamingsoul 5y ago

I similar avoid purchasing devices that I can’t have full ownership of. I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy. For example, I have several digital cinema film cameras that I do not plan to upgrade or sell. Unfortunately they are showing their age and have some fixable faults. I have spent the last two years to reverse engineering these cameras to identify the fault. If only I had a schematic. I don’t expect the industry or politics to change any time soon. If only a hardware company could change the status quo by enabling their customers to be enabled to have full ownership and access.

dotancohen 5y ago
> I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy. Hardware in the old Soviet states came with all the blueprints and engineering schematics to fabricate replacement parts in the field.

scrubs 5y ago

For those of us are were of age when the internet and (later) big-data became a thing, we can only applaud the work of so many smart people. We see engineering plus entrepreneurship at its best. The varied inversion, however, of who has the majority control of an object or service post-purchase has lately gone to the provider not customer. Folks, that's a problem. We've seen this, - here - John Deer self-fix stories - Apple store stories (and Android/Google variations) - Several flavors of techs at places like best buy quivering in their boots at an Apple fix. Techs keep blabbering on about Apple repair policy and what they cannot do. I finally had to tell the guy: Start telling me what you can do, or I'll talk to somebody else. All I asked for was if they have a screw driver to take the bottom plate off, which I later got off Amazon. - General issues of privacy We gotta get back to customer satisfaction. Eventually --- not as quick as we might prefer --- customers will realize they have the stronger position and use it. Indeed, if I plunk down money for an object, my assessment counts. I do not accept some paper pusher a large-corp-America gainsaying that.

sfg 5y ago

Don't connect them to the internet.

LdSGSgvupDV 5y ago

Even if it is software, I don't want automatically updating. The problem introduced by automatically updating is higher than the problem they fixed in my experience. For example, windows updating. There was an updating when professor gave the talk in class. Windows updating popped out. There is no way for professor to stop the updating. He missed the chance and windows already went into blue updating screen. So, We had a break, and professor went to his office to find another computer. Another problem is that automatically updating almost always runs silently. When I played online game and the game went laggy, I always tabbed out to see what happened with resource monitor. It is easy to find out there is whatever updating using CPU or bandwidth. I feel updating just like legally raping my device. Oh. It is OUR device.

m1gu3l 5y ago
Frustrating for sure… but equating this to rape induces eye rolling.

d1sxeyes 5y ago

I bought Elite Dangerous, played it loads, really enjoyed it. One day, they said 'we're no longer supporting MacOS'. Fine, I thought... except it turns out even their single player mode needs to be online to work, and they were disabling that as well. No refunds, no apologies, just a game I'd paid 50 dollars for suddenly didn't work any more. Ultimately, still value for money given how many hours I'd ploughed into it before they broke it, but yeah, I think twice now about that kind of purchase.

asxd 5y ago

I bought a sleep number bed, and now after like 2 years, suddenly one of the bedsides has decided to completely deflate around 5am every night, waking me up and forcing me to open up my phone and tell it to reinflate. I haven't contacted the company yet (out of laziness I guess), but I mean... it's a bed. A thing I lay on. Definitely turned me off to smart products, at least ones that worked perfectly fine as dumb devices.