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Israel Finds Fourth Covid Booster Is Ineffective

149 points by awb 5y ago

arrakis2021 5y ago
ars 5y ago
Ineffective for Omicron. It still helps immunity in general, so is recommended for immunocompromized people and others with low immunity, most people don't need it though, the gain isn't enough to matter for them.
- miked85 5y ago
  None of the shots helped with immunity in general.
- momirlan 5y ago
  What is "immunity in general" for you ? This shot is not vitamin C
  - Retric 5y ago
    Presumably they are referring to other strains of COVID rather than say AIDS. I don’t know if that’s true or false, but it’s best to take peoples statements in a reasonable context.
    - ulfw 5y ago
      Considering Omicron is about to outcompete every single other variant I am not sure what 'general immunity' means in this context either. If anyone one could assume that an Omicron specific booster would help better with future variants as those would likely spring up through changes of the current Omicron virus rather than wild type.
      - Retric 5y ago
        Various strains become more or less common over time, but the winner doesn’t totally supplant everything else globally very quickly. Omicron for example isn’t part of the Delta lineage. So, there is some justification in viewing things based on both the short term public health standpoint as well as the longe term evolution of the virus. That said, I am not an expert just pointing out things are complicated. I would assume a targeted booster for Omicron would be a good idea, but at this point that’s just blind hope without clinical data backing it up.
vmception 5y ago
Shot from seasonal ailment two seasons ago not effective this season, here is the most random news source you can find to tell this obvious truth
- mandmandam 5y ago
  For a "random news source", it sure links to the source material better than "random corporate news source". Weird how so many people are fixated on that, given that it is trivial to click on any of the links provided.
- h2hq 5y ago
  To be clear, there are plenty of virus vaccines that are lifelong. It is unfortunate that the covid mutates as fast as influenza, but it was not a given at the beginning of the pandemic. Many scientists claimed that enveloped viruses were less likely to mutate, and that the covid vaccine would likely maintain immunizing effectiveness for years. It was a disappointing outcome, not an obvious one.
not2b 5y ago
There are two separate questions: Does an extra booster prevent infection? Does an extra booster reduce hospitalizations and deaths? Seems this study only addressed the first question. But instead of giving a fourth shot based on the OG Covid, seems an updated version based on omicron, delta, and any new variants of concern would be a better idea.
- top_post 5y ago
  I can't for the life of me understand why your last statement isn't what the world is driving for at the moment. mRNA vaccines are easily(-ish) updated, so punch out an Omicron specific dose and get on with the regular single/dual (if needed) regime. It seems strange we'd opt for 3-4-5 shots given the benefit of mRNA was its ease of creation and modification.
  - loyukfai 5y ago
    Both Pfizer and Moderna, at the minimum, have been developing, or already developed, a version of COVID vaccine targeting Omicron.
  - dnadler 5y ago
    They are working on Omicron-specific vaccines. Here's an article about Pfizer, not sure about anyone else, though. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-pfizer-omicron-variant-march-paxlovid/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-pfizer-omicron-va...
  - ImaCake 5y ago
    I think they are making these strain specific boosters. But it seems “they”* want to keep it quiet until they are ready to release them. My first through on this is that there is over-supply of the OG vaccine and it takes time to switch production and the booster story is designed to give some hope and confidence to the masses (which is good I think). There is also some paperwork involved which takes time, but as we saw with the OG vaccines that can be done pretty damn fast. Best guess would be the strain specific boosters will come out of nowhere and suddenly saturate news coverage. But don’t quote me on that. * presumably the pharma companies and national governments funding them. So a conspiracy, but not a QANON conspiracy.
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
I am living in Israel, i doubt that it is possible to state anything definitively on the subject: regulations and decissions are being changed on a daily basis. I am not a healthcare specialist, however all this is giving the impression of being one big mess...
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  I think it can definitely be stated that having weekly decisions about something as serious and possibly long-lasting as vaccinations are a bad omen. Especially if we consider possible adverse effects in children we should instead opt for partial lockdowns at least temporarily to stem the wave
  - MichaelMoser123 5y ago
    Not quite sure about this, lockdowns are having profound psychological implications, especially on the young ones. A child can't be expected to sit in a zoom session all day, it's simply not possible.
    - kittiepryde 5y ago
      Source?
      - MichaelMoser123 5y ago
        you can ask just about any family with kids; you can also google it, there are plenty of studies on the subject. Here is a ready made query on the subject; https://www.google.com/search?q=impact+of+lockdown+on+children%27s+mental+health&source=hp&ei=RCPmYd2RCZDQUt6HvZAH&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYeYxVKX207J3WObUb8iHAD44AXjPEBq_&oq=psychological+impact+of+lockdowns+on+chi&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIGCAAQFhAeOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARDRAzoICAAQgAQQsQM6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCxAxDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggILhCxAxCDAToICC4QgAQQsQM6BQgAEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARDRAzoFCC4QgARQAFj2gQFg3JUBaAJwAHgAgAGEAYgBhySSAQQyLjQwmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz https://www.google.com/search?q=impact+of+lockdown+on+childr...
loeg 5y ago
If this source is legit — and I’ve never heard of it, so who knows — the headline is missing a pretty significant word: > A fourth COVID-19 booster mRNA vaccine has proven ineffective against Omicron infection
- mandmandam 5y ago
  ... That's literally the first line of the article. Handy tip: When the article provides its source material and even links to it, it doesn't really matter whether you heard of it before or not. On top of that: "Meanwhile, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) cautioned last week that there was no evidence to back a fourth booster, warning that repeat boosters every four months might actually weaken people’s immune systems". The source for that is also linked in the article.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- lostmsu 5y ago
  The title should be edited accordingly
  - mmmrtl 5y ago
    *An Israeli Study Finds Fourth Covid Vaccine Dose Is Only Slightly More Effective Than Third Dose At Producing Antibodies Against Omicron
- nojokes 5y ago
  Not sure about this source but this one is https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-fin...
jleyank 5y ago
Then they just rush-approve the mRNA vaccines with the modified payloads for Omicron and possibly Delta. The same delivery systems, merely different mRNA sequences, so I would think there's reasonable chance the (side)effects are the same. I thought this is already happening on the normal timeline. And there's a whole lot of vaccines coming on line that use different delivery systems and/or targets. There's a chance that one of them is effective vs. Omicron. If so, there's a number of govts that have gobs of money and the ability to direct what gets manufactured if they so wish. Others can break patents on a national security justification and manufacture locally. Whether people will take them is a different question, but Darwin might keep having some effect with this. As others have said, the ultimate goal is keeping people out of hospital not from sniffling.
- jleyank 5y ago
  FWIW, both Pfizer and Moderna have announced Omicron specific vaccines in March. Approval is at the rate set by governmental agencies. I would be curious why this is being downvoted so quickly and quietly...
- bagacrap 5y ago
  If you're ok with putting something in your body that has a "reasonable chance" of not harming you, why not just make it the actual virus?
version_five 5y ago
If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective). It's one thing to provide treatment to people that want it, and to share the latest thinking and advice. But it becomes pretty ridiculous when the latest musings go unfiltered into mandates. I read there is an omicron specific vaccine that will be ready in a couple months. Will that then immediately be forced on everyone, even if they've already had their 3-4 shots? What if we invent another thing? Vaccines make sense, but real time forcing people to take them as soon as they're invented doesn't. I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to. When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government?
- Daishiman 5y ago
  > And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicating that this is about as far as it goes, which is quite reasonable as most vaccination regimens generally require two or three shots to achieve maximum effect. The subtext of what you're saying is that politicans came to a knee-jerk conclusion that a third shot was necessary and inductively any further shot will so as well. The science does not bear this out, and the third shot was backed by science, not by politicians wanting to do something. Your position sounds like misplaced skepticism.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - timr 5y ago
    > I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fair, the argument in support of boosters seems robust for this group), and the FDA and CDC advisory committees both recommended against boosting of younger populations. They were bypassed. Two long-time FDA scientists resigned over the issue: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-lancet-review/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-la... They wrote a scathing review of the situation in the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Paul Offit (inventor of the Rotavirus vaccine, member of CDC ACIP, and vaccine advocate) is on the record saying that he doesn't advise his own 20-something son to get a booster dose: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-teens-get-booster-omicron/621222/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-te... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offit-is-skeptical-of-boosters-for-all.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offi... The headlong rush toward boosters in all age groups is simply not supported by evidence. (edit: I used the word "mandatory" above; this was a mistake in my own wordering, and I removed it. CDC ACIP recommended that older populations should get a booster, but did not do this for those under 50. I incorrectly summarized this as "recommended against mandatory boosters".)
ummonk 5y ago
> the amount of antibodies returns to the level it was after the third vaccine, not more. It’s nice, but it’s not what we expect from a booster So basically it doesn’t confer any long term benefits - the only value from it would be if you want to keep your circulating antibodies high by perpetually boosting on a regular interval.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  > perpetually boosting on a regular interval. ... Which is expressly advised against by the EMA, as linked in the article.
  - nojokes 5y ago
    No, they advise against doing it too often i.e. doing 4th shot shortly after 3rd. That's all.
- kashunstva 5y ago
  It remains to be seen over the long-run whether antibody levels correlate inversely with either risk of: a) _any_ Covid infection or b) _severe_ Covid infection. Antibody levels are often cited as prediction surrogates early on because they are easy to measure. Occurrence or recurrence of infection, irrespective of antibody levels, of course, takes time. Also remaining to be seen is the role of T-cell mediated immunity in reducing the severity of Covid infection. If that role is significant, then declining antibody levels may be less worrisome than people believe currently.
  - nradov 5y ago
    We already know that T-cell immunity has a major role in reducing the severity of COVID-19. There is no real question about that. Antibody levels are transient and comparatively less important. https://youtu.be/GklHGYY8vN8 https://youtu.be/GklHGYY8vN8
- h2hq 5y ago
  Antibodies are not long term, ever. They always degrade in the blood system. ...but that's also not the only type of immune response that a vaccine generates. Vaccines cause the creation of b-cells, which retain the memory of this virus antigen and will re-create antibodies if the virus infects the host. b-cell immunity is persistent - for years, and probably decades. But because it is very hard to measure (it resides in your bone marrow), it is therefor not often reported on. Having said that, it is hard to imagine that a 4th booster significantly increases the number of anti-covid b-cells - let alone ones that can impart immunity against the newer variants.
twofornone 5y ago
Record cases across the planet regardless of vaccination rates...how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? How long before official sources acknowledge that breakthrough cases are probably drastically underreported? I can't be the only one surrounded by fully vaccinated individuals testing positive. Its happening far too often for me to dismiss as anecdote. And if officials are this wrong regarding effectiveness, why should we trust them regarding safety? How can anyone have any trust in these institutions after the last two years?
- robbrown451 5y ago
  "Testing positive" isn't the main question. Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron. But they are quite effective against death and serious disease. Fauci's own words are that "just about everybody" will get infected. If you want anecdotes, at least talk to an ICU nurse. Ask what they are seeing regarding vaccinated or unvaccinated.
  - peteradio 5y ago
    Two doses of Pfizer is effective against Omicron for severe disease or death, especially for young folks. That doesn't stop some colleges from mandating boosters.
  - twofornone 5y ago
    >Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? If this is the extent of protection from vaccines, why are they still being mandated to cohorts with >.01% mortality (under ≈50)? >And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron The official whitehouse website still claims that breakthrough cases occur at a rate of 1 in 5000. This is revisionist history. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
- Daishiman 5y ago
luke2m 5y ago
We really need to get people from countries that don’t have the resources to buy up all the supply vaccinated. It will help the richer countries, too, if variants aren’t mutated there.
- deleted 5y ago
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- h2hq 5y ago
  Animals also get covid - so there's little hope of preventing future variants at all. The majority of covid infections on Earth are not in humans at all.
kashunstva 5y ago
From the article: > A similar trend was reported by the New York City (NYC) Health Department, which reported that about 2% of Omicron cases were hospitalised in comparison to around 5% of Omicron cases. Huh? I'm assuming they meant: "...in comparison to around 5% of _Delta_ cases." but who knows? For further comparison, according to data from the U.S. CDC for the 2018-2019 influenza season, the hospitalization rate was about 1.3%.[1] [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
jollybean 5y ago
This is click bait verging on vaccine minsinformation. The headline could be: "4 doses may not more effective at reducing Omicron infections than 3 doses, but 3 doses is actually very good at preventing infection, hospitalization and death from all known variants - and even 2 doses - while not providing a lot of protection against Omicron infection ... does actually provide good protection against infection from other variants but also hospitalization and death from all variants, including Omicron." 1) 3 doses are actually fairly effective at stopping Omicron infections, at least for 12 weeks - we can see this definitively in data from around the world. They indirectly mention this in the article. Ontario data [1] In the first graph, you see COVID 'cases' increase with the onset of Omicron, even among those with 2 doses - clearly 2 doses are less effective at preventing Omicron cases - but still pretty good at stopping Hospitalization and Death. Later in the time series, precisely when people started getting their boosters, you see a rapid increase in levels of protection against infection, hospitalization and death. 2) The vaccines by all accounts still seem to be effective at preventing cases (and hospitalizations and death) of previous, more deadly variants. 3) The difference between 4 and 3 doses is noteworthy, but it's definitely misleading to indicate 'ineffective when the baseline of comparison, i.e. 3 doses, is actually 'effective'. 4) As we can see from the Ontario - even 2 doses - but certainly 3 doses - are very effective in reducing hospitalization rates and death. (From that data 'minimum 2 doses' reduces Hospitalization by 5x and death by 20x. That is mixed data from 2 and 3 doses, given the ratio of those having 3rd dose, we can estimate that 3 doses is even considerably more effective than those numbers). Given the inconsistency between the headline, their own stated information, and easily available data from various legitimate authorities - I suggest that this article, at least the headline, constitutes purposeful misinformation. [1] https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/ https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/
- Proven 5y ago
rhema 5y ago
I was thinking about immunity generally, from a Shannon information theory perspective. It's impossible that the human body has an infinite ability to absorb immunity, because otherwise we could store an infinite amount of information. Therefore, there must be some kind of forgetting that happens. Likewise, the body can only learn so much from repeated exposure. Is anyone aware of any writing that explains immunity from an information theory perspective?
- kittiepryde 5y ago
  https://www.cell.com/trends/cancer/fulltext/S2405-8033(20)30340-X https://www.cell.com/trends/cancer/fulltext/S2405-8033(20)30... Looks early on, inconclusive atm, but interesting ( this is specifically applied to cancer and not a viral infection )
- nootropicat 5y ago
  "Why must T cells be cross-reactive?" https://www.nature.com/articles/nri3279 https://www.nature.com/articles/nri3279
- nojokes 5y ago
  It is a good perspective. I mean invoking Shannon part. There are definitely limitations to the antibody levels because otherwise we would just explode, right? But it makes sense to try to keep levels high in the event of pandemic. Our bodies unfortunately could not do it on their own so we have to beat them to do this.
robbrown451 5y ago
I'm curious about the argument that giving too many boosters takes away the vaccine from "people in low and middle-income countries." Surely we have the capacity to make enough vaccines for everyone by now. It's just a matter of economics. Giving more boosters really shouldn't reduce supply, if there is money to make vaccines for everyone in the lower income countries, they will be made.
- jimmyswimmy 5y ago
  At some point the economics involves construction of a new facility, which is a pretty significant cost and, perhaps, only makes sense to a company if they expect there to be a persistent need for what they can produce in that facility. So, if company decision makers don't perceive that they can sell more vaccines, for a long time (many years), building a new factory will be off the table.
- giantg2 5y ago
  We don't have the capacity to vaccinate the whole world every 6 months.
  - kittiepryde 5y ago
    https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinemanufacturing https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinemanufacturi... But, we could, at 12 billion doses a year already realizable, getting to 14+ isn't far fetched -- distribution and convincing people to take them would be much more challenging. I'm not which of distribution and cooperation is the hardest, but, manufacturing is certainly not the blocker.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      What's the date of that article? It seems old. I haven't heard of anyone talking about herd immunity at 70% since at least before delta. These other articles seem to say that it's not feasible in the short term and have a better count that is nor just projections based on past capacity. https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/04/health/andrew-pollard-booster-vaccines-feasibility-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/04/health/andrew-pollard-booster... https://www.barrons.com/articles/a-plan-to-break-the-vaccine-manufacturing-bottleneck-51621952245 https://www.barrons.com/articles/a-plan-to-break-the-vaccine...
virgulino 5y ago
Something is not right. CNN reported the same study, with contradictory quotes from the same doctor: Fourth vaccine dose boosts antibodies, researchers say, but likely not enough to prevent Omicron breakthrough infections http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154abf627b http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154ab... --- healthpolicy-watch.news ----- According to Regev-Yochay, the third dose resulted in “much higher antibodies, neutralization and the antibodies were not just higher in quantity but also in quality” than the second dose – but the fourth vaccine did not show significant antibody increase. ”Maybe there are a few more antibodies but not much more compared to the third dose,” said Regev-Yochay. ----- --- cnn.com ----- "We have a follow-up of the Pfizer vaccine for two weeks now, and we have a follow-up of the Moderna vaccine just for one week at this time point. And what we see is that the Pfizer vaccine, after two weeks, you see an enhancement or increase in the number of antibodies and neutralizing antibodies -- a pretty nice increase. It's even a little bit higher than what we had after the third dose," Regev-Yochay said. -----
- twofornone 5y ago
  - javagram 5y ago
    > Who could possibly have predicted that a non sterilizing vaccine would put selection pressure on a rapidly mutating coronavirus, right? Are you referring to the Omicron variant? Current theories suggest that Omicron evolved inside a HIV patient. There is no reason to believe the patient was vaccinated. Omicron evades the body’s antibodies generated from infection by the delta or alpha or wild type variants, so there’s no plausible case for vaccine “selective pressure” especially as it emerged from a region of the world with very low vaccination rates.
  - nojokes 5y ago
- armchairhacker 5y ago
  My understanding is that a fourth booster doesn't seem to prevent breakthrough infections (which are very common with Omicron), but it does seem to reduce severity and hospitalizations (which are very uncommon with Omicron). Maybe it reduces the chance of a breakthrough but it's still common. This is what the third booster does and probably also what being vaccinated closer to infection date does. This is exactly what happens when you have more antibodies.
daveofdaves 5y ago
I like how they put CDC thumbnail in the screenshot
shutupsquared 5y ago
shutupsquared 5y ago
Madmallard 5y ago
How many goes at vaccine whackamole results in the immune system being much worse off and/or side effect incidence exceeds the incidence of the original virus's problems?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Jimmc414 5y ago
Rochelle Walensky, the CDC director, has stated that vaccines do reduce severity, but they do not stop transmission. Assuming her words represent the scientific and expert opinion, could someone offer a coherent argument as to why there is so much pressure for others to get vaccinated? Is fear of the unvaccinated clogging up hospitals the primary motivation?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- mmmrtl 5y ago
  stopping transmission is an impossibly high bar. Vaccines reduce transmission. Really really shockingly unexpectedly well for the first few months, in previous waves, but that sterilizing antibody-mediated immunity wanes. The booster restores that efficacy against transmission, but omicron's immune evasion means that even a booster only gets to ~70% efficacy against cases/transmission, compared to the surprise finding of ~95% efficacy for the first two doses. Fewer people spreading the virus -> fewer cases -> not as bad of a time. The other important factor is that because your immune system is primed to recognize SARS-CoV-2 after vaccination, even if you do get infected, it responds and clears the infection more quickly than it would otherwise. That could mean you're never infectious, or infectious for fewer days, reducing transmission. Pre-omicron, breakthrough infections were infectious for 5.5 days on average, compared to 7.5 days for infections in unvaccinated people (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507). Yes, all this to maintain some semblance of healthcare for society, and to fill up fewer reefer trucks with body bags.
  - landemva 5y ago
    Polio was stopped. Since we can't stop Covid in wild animals, and since severity is moderating, when do we plan to end Covid mandates?
  - Jimmc414 5y ago
    I don't believe that is accurate. Several studies show no significant difference between the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated. Here is one https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... Also, recent reports from Denmark seem to indicate that vaccinated at best have equal protection against Omicron. Too early to declare this as fact, but the initial data actually favors a slight negative efficacy.
feupan 5y ago
Sorry but what’s this website? I don’t think this should be on HN given the current novax climate. Let’s wait for legitimate sources.
benmw333 5y ago
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  > I do not wear a mask. No vax. Why not?
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    For the vax, with omnicron being so mild, it seems like a bad trade-off to get vaccinated with v1 Covid with it's presumably more nasty spike protein rather than risk infection (which seems unavoidable anyway?) also, it's known that 2 weeks past vaccination your immune system is weakened, you are more susceptible so it seems like a particularly bad idea during a surge
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      Given that the (vast, vast) majority of doctors are strongly recommending it, do you believe that they are lying, or that they are simply mistaken and you know better?
      - lambdaba 5y ago
        I don't know, I just see the virus has evolved into a very mild variant that even triple-vaxed don't seem protected from, and that the original vaccine has been designed with a spike protein that has since greatly mutated.
  - dgfitz 5y ago
    Why does it matter?
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      It seems very selfish to me, knowing you are maximizing the risk of passing the infection on to other people, and prolonging the pandemic for everyone. Maybe you are fearful of the vaccine, but the sheer number of people who have received one should, if you understand basic statistics, cure you of that fear. Even if it doesn't, refusing to wear a mask is just plain arrogant.
stuaxo 5y ago
Great, can we get on with vaccinating the rest of the world now ?
- landemva 5y ago
  With whose money? Is it possible to vaccinate all wild animals and every house cat?
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    The vaccinated still get and spread COVID and it is quite possible vaccinated individuals may actually contribute more than unvaxxed to more dangerous variants.
    - nojokes 5y ago
      New variants need more mutation cycles. If vaccines slow down transmission (what they do) then they contribute to lower probability of emergence of new variants.
      - encryptluks2 5y ago
        There is already plenty of proof that vaccines cause viruses to mutate to become more virulent, and with Omicron transmission and replication are not being slowed down like before. In fact, recent studies show triple-vaxxed more likely to get Omicron than unvaxxed.
        nojokes 5y ago
        You mean that chicken thing? Total different. But it could have happened. Sars-cov died off because it was too deadly and not enough infectious. Imaging there was a vaccine against Sars-cov to make it less deadly. Perhaps we could have kept it in circulation and natural selection would have eliminated all the anti-vaxxers... But Sars-cov-2 is different. It is without doubt in circulation and mutating. Less it mutates, less new versions it can make. Because COVID-19 vaccines limit replication and transmission, they also limit new variant emergence. Had this person that gave omicron to the world been vaccinated, omicron would have lost its change. Now about omicron infecting more people who have gotten booster is completely wrong. Totally. It is just your anti-vaxxer mind messing with you. This is the way your dark mind functions - making things up.
hourislate 5y ago
Folks shouldn't worry whether it's effective or not. Just go get it because it's never a bad thing to keep everything topped up. I hope they mandate everyone to take those new pills Pfizer came out with, that will probably make us super human Covid fighting machines. If we just keep taking boosters and those new pills Covid doesn't stand a chance. Please make sure you tell everyone who isn't vaccinated to get vaccinated so they don't make a vaccinated person catch Covid. https://ifunny.co/picture/don-t-talk-to-me-unless-you-re-gigavakked-astrazeneca-6cQEyXvf8?s=cl https://ifunny.co/picture/don-t-talk-to-me-unless-you-re-gig...
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  I hope this is sarcasm.. it has to be. Although the term top up sounds like something the government would say, just like boosted. I'm waiting for the ads on television where they show old people getting "boosted" and talk about how great they feel afterwards, when in reality I've known several people that had to stay in bed for a few days after their vaccinations and acted like it was a normal thing.
deleted 5y ago
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benpiper 5y ago
https://notthebee.com/article/are-we-permitted-to-point-out-the-obvious-yet-about-covid-19-vaccines https://notthebee.com/article/are-we-permitted-to-point-out-...
- nojokes 5y ago
hffftz 5y ago
fmajid 5y ago
There's no point in fourth boosters until an Omicron-specific vaccine is developed.

149 points by awb 5y ago

arrakis2021 5y ago

ars 5y ago

Ineffective for Omicron. It still helps immunity in general, so is recommended for immunocompromized people and others with low immunity, most people don't need it though, the gain isn't enough to matter for them.

miked85 5y ago
None of the shots helped with immunity in general.
momirlan 5y ago
What is "immunity in general" for you ? This shot is not vitamin C
- Retric 5y ago
  Presumably they are referring to other strains of COVID rather than say AIDS. I don’t know if that’s true or false, but it’s best to take peoples statements in a reasonable context.
  - ulfw 5y ago
    Considering Omicron is about to outcompete every single other variant I am not sure what 'general immunity' means in this context either. If anyone one could assume that an Omicron specific booster would help better with future variants as those would likely spring up through changes of the current Omicron virus rather than wild type.
    - Retric 5y ago
      Various strains become more or less common over time, but the winner doesn’t totally supplant everything else globally very quickly. Omicron for example isn’t part of the Delta lineage. So, there is some justification in viewing things based on both the short term public health standpoint as well as the longe term evolution of the virus. That said, I am not an expert just pointing out things are complicated. I would assume a targeted booster for Omicron would be a good idea, but at this point that’s just blind hope without clinical data backing it up.

vmception 5y ago

Shot from seasonal ailment two seasons ago not effective this season, here is the most random news source you can find to tell this obvious truth

mandmandam 5y ago
For a "random news source", it sure links to the source material better than "random corporate news source". Weird how so many people are fixated on that, given that it is trivial to click on any of the links provided.
h2hq 5y ago
To be clear, there are plenty of virus vaccines that are lifelong. It is unfortunate that the covid mutates as fast as influenza, but it was not a given at the beginning of the pandemic. Many scientists claimed that enveloped viruses were less likely to mutate, and that the covid vaccine would likely maintain immunizing effectiveness for years. It was a disappointing outcome, not an obvious one.

not2b 5y ago

There are two separate questions: Does an extra booster prevent infection? Does an extra booster reduce hospitalizations and deaths? Seems this study only addressed the first question. But instead of giving a fourth shot based on the OG Covid, seems an updated version based on omicron, delta, and any new variants of concern would be a better idea.

top_post 5y ago
I can't for the life of me understand why your last statement isn't what the world is driving for at the moment. mRNA vaccines are easily(-ish) updated, so punch out an Omicron specific dose and get on with the regular single/dual (if needed) regime. It seems strange we'd opt for 3-4-5 shots given the benefit of mRNA was its ease of creation and modification.
- loyukfai 5y ago
  Both Pfizer and Moderna, at the minimum, have been developing, or already developed, a version of COVID vaccine targeting Omicron.
- dnadler 5y ago
  They are working on Omicron-specific vaccines. Here's an article about Pfizer, not sure about anyone else, though. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-pfizer-omicron-variant-march-paxlovid/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-pfizer-omicron-va...
- ImaCake 5y ago
  I think they are making these strain specific boosters. But it seems “they”* want to keep it quiet until they are ready to release them. My first through on this is that there is over-supply of the OG vaccine and it takes time to switch production and the booster story is designed to give some hope and confidence to the masses (which is good I think). There is also some paperwork involved which takes time, but as we saw with the OG vaccines that can be done pretty damn fast. Best guess would be the strain specific boosters will come out of nowhere and suddenly saturate news coverage. But don’t quote me on that. * presumably the pharma companies and national governments funding them. So a conspiracy, but not a QANON conspiracy.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

I am living in Israel, i doubt that it is possible to state anything definitively on the subject: regulations and decissions are being changed on a daily basis. I am not a healthcare specialist, however all this is giving the impression of being one big mess...

cblconfederate 5y ago
I think it can definitely be stated that having weekly decisions about something as serious and possibly long-lasting as vaccinations are a bad omen. Especially if we consider possible adverse effects in children we should instead opt for partial lockdowns at least temporarily to stem the wave
- MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  Not quite sure about this, lockdowns are having profound psychological implications, especially on the young ones. A child can't be expected to sit in a zoom session all day, it's simply not possible.
  - kittiepryde 5y ago
    Source?
    - MichaelMoser123 5y ago
      you can ask just about any family with kids; you can also google it, there are plenty of studies on the subject. Here is a ready made query on the subject; https://www.google.com/search?q=impact+of+lockdown+on+children%27s+mental+health&source=hp&ei=RCPmYd2RCZDQUt6HvZAH&iflsig=ALs-wAMAAAAAYeYxVKX207J3WObUb8iHAD44AXjPEBq_&oq=psychological+impact+of+lockdowns+on+chi&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIGCAAQFhAeOg4ILhCABBCxAxDHARDRAzoICAAQgAQQsQM6CwguEIAEELEDEIMBOgsILhCxAxDHARCjAjoOCC4QgAQQsQMQxwEQowI6CwgAEIAEELEDEIMBOggILhCxAxCDAToICC4QgAQQsQM6BQgAEIAEOgsILhCABBDHARDRAzoFCC4QgARQAFj2gQFg3JUBaAJwAHgAgAGEAYgBhySSAQQyLjQwmAEAoAEB&sclient=gws-wiz https://www.google.com/search?q=impact+of+lockdown+on+childr...

loeg 5y ago

If this source is legit — and I’ve never heard of it, so who knows — the headline is missing a pretty significant word: > A fourth COVID-19 booster mRNA vaccine has proven ineffective against Omicron infection

mandmandam 5y ago
... That's literally the first line of the article. Handy tip: When the article provides its source material and even links to it, it doesn't really matter whether you heard of it before or not. On top of that: "Meanwhile, the European Medicines Agency (EMA) cautioned last week that there was no evidence to back a fourth booster, warning that repeat boosters every four months might actually weaken people’s immune systems". The source for that is also linked in the article.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lostmsu 5y ago
The title should be edited accordingly
- mmmrtl 5y ago
  *An Israeli Study Finds Fourth Covid Vaccine Dose Is Only Slightly More Effective Than Third Dose At Producing Antibodies Against Omicron
nojokes 5y ago
Not sure about this source but this one is https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-finds-4th-dose-not-good-enough-against-omicron/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-trial-worlds-first-fin...

jleyank 5y ago

Then they just rush-approve the mRNA vaccines with the modified payloads for Omicron and possibly Delta. The same delivery systems, merely different mRNA sequences, so I would think there's reasonable chance the (side)effects are the same. I thought this is already happening on the normal timeline. And there's a whole lot of vaccines coming on line that use different delivery systems and/or targets. There's a chance that one of them is effective vs. Omicron. If so, there's a number of govts that have gobs of money and the ability to direct what gets manufactured if they so wish. Others can break patents on a national security justification and manufacture locally. Whether people will take them is a different question, but Darwin might keep having some effect with this. As others have said, the ultimate goal is keeping people out of hospital not from sniffling.

jleyank 5y ago
FWIW, both Pfizer and Moderna have announced Omicron specific vaccines in March. Approval is at the rate set by governmental agencies. I would be curious why this is being downvoted so quickly and quietly...
bagacrap 5y ago
If you're ok with putting something in your body that has a "reasonable chance" of not harming you, why not just make it the actual virus?

version_five 5y ago

If I understand correctly, israel mandates a third shot (to do normal stuff), as do many places in north america, either now or soon. And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. What I find most frustrating is that politicians are happy to make these mandates live, during an ongoing situation where we actually don't know a lot about how effective things are (and in the case of the latest variant, we know they are not effective). It's one thing to provide treatment to people that want it, and to share the latest thinking and advice. But it becomes pretty ridiculous when the latest musings go unfiltered into mandates. I read there is an omicron specific vaccine that will be ready in a couple months. Will that then immediately be forced on everyone, even if they've already had their 3-4 shots? What if we invent another thing? Vaccines make sense, but real time forcing people to take them as soon as they're invented doesn't. I have my three shots, but I'm terrified now that the precident is set that a government can force me to take something that I might not want to. When was the last time anyone actually trusted a government?

Daishiman 5y ago
> And I can only imagine many people would be happy to mandate a fourth as soon as possible. I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). Their research is now indicating that this is about as far as it goes, which is quite reasonable as most vaccination regimens generally require two or three shots to achieve maximum effect. The subtext of what you're saying is that politicans came to a knee-jerk conclusion that a third shot was necessary and inductively any further shot will so as well. The science does not bear this out, and the third shot was backed by science, not by politicians wanting to do something. Your position sounds like misplaced skepticism.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- timr 5y ago
  > I'm sorry but I'm not understanding the logic. The booster was recommended after several rounds of research across multiple countries suggested it was a good idea, with Israel doing some of the first testing and reaching the conclusion that it was worthwhile (and it was, by a substantial margin). You are misinformed. There is a paucity of data supporting boosters, what little exists is for people over 65 (to be fair, the argument in support of boosters seems robust for this group), and the FDA and CDC advisory committees both recommended against boosting of younger populations. They were bypassed. Two long-time FDA scientists resigned over the issue: https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-lancet-review/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/13/health/boosters-not-needed-la... They wrote a scathing review of the situation in the Lancet: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02046-8/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Paul Offit (inventor of the Rotavirus vaccine, member of CDC ACIP, and vaccine advocate) is on the record saying that he doesn't advise his own 20-something son to get a booster dose: https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-teens-get-booster-omicron/621222/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2022/01/should-te... https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offit-is-skeptical-of-boosters-for-all.html https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/12/omicron-dr-paul-offi... The headlong rush toward boosters in all age groups is simply not supported by evidence. (edit: I used the word "mandatory" above; this was a mistake in my own wordering, and I removed it. CDC ACIP recommended that older populations should get a booster, but did not do this for those under 50. I incorrectly summarized this as "recommended against mandatory boosters".)

ummonk 5y ago

> the amount of antibodies returns to the level it was after the third vaccine, not more. It’s nice, but it’s not what we expect from a booster So basically it doesn’t confer any long term benefits - the only value from it would be if you want to keep your circulating antibodies high by perpetually boosting on a regular interval.

mandmandam 5y ago
> perpetually boosting on a regular interval. ... Which is expressly advised against by the EMA, as linked in the article.
- nojokes 5y ago
  No, they advise against doing it too often i.e. doing 4th shot shortly after 3rd. That's all.
kashunstva 5y ago
It remains to be seen over the long-run whether antibody levels correlate inversely with either risk of: a) _any_ Covid infection or b) _severe_ Covid infection. Antibody levels are often cited as prediction surrogates early on because they are easy to measure. Occurrence or recurrence of infection, irrespective of antibody levels, of course, takes time. Also remaining to be seen is the role of T-cell mediated immunity in reducing the severity of Covid infection. If that role is significant, then declining antibody levels may be less worrisome than people believe currently.
- nradov 5y ago
  We already know that T-cell immunity has a major role in reducing the severity of COVID-19. There is no real question about that. Antibody levels are transient and comparatively less important. https://youtu.be/GklHGYY8vN8 https://youtu.be/GklHGYY8vN8
h2hq 5y ago
Antibodies are not long term, ever. They always degrade in the blood system. ...but that's also not the only type of immune response that a vaccine generates. Vaccines cause the creation of b-cells, which retain the memory of this virus antigen and will re-create antibodies if the virus infects the host. b-cell immunity is persistent - for years, and probably decades. But because it is very hard to measure (it resides in your bone marrow), it is therefor not often reported on. Having said that, it is hard to imagine that a 4th booster significantly increases the number of anti-covid b-cells - let alone ones that can impart immunity against the newer variants.

twofornone 5y ago

Record cases across the planet regardless of vaccination rates...how much longer until official sources are willing to acknowledge that these vaccines are not nearly as effective as claimed? How long before official sources acknowledge that breakthrough cases are probably drastically underreported? I can't be the only one surrounded by fully vaccinated individuals testing positive. Its happening far too often for me to dismiss as anecdote. And if officials are this wrong regarding effectiveness, why should we trust them regarding safety? How can anyone have any trust in these institutions after the last two years?

robbrown451 5y ago
"Testing positive" isn't the main question. Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron. But they are quite effective against death and serious disease. Fauci's own words are that "just about everybody" will get infected. If you want anecdotes, at least talk to an ICU nurse. Ask what they are seeing regarding vaccinated or unvaccinated.
- peteradio 5y ago
  Two doses of Pfizer is effective against Omicron for severe disease or death, especially for young folks. That doesn't stop some colleges from mandating boosters.
- twofornone 5y ago
  >Are they dying? Are they in the ICU? If this is the extent of protection from vaccines, why are they still being mandated to cohorts with >.01% mortality (under ≈50)? >And those officials that you distrust so much have been quite upfront about the fact that vaccines aren't all that effective against infection with Omicron The official whitehouse website still claims that breakthrough cases occur at a rate of 1 in 5000. This is revisionist history. 0. https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/covidplan/
Daishiman 5y ago

luke2m 5y ago

We really need to get people from countries that don’t have the resources to buy up all the supply vaccinated. It will help the richer countries, too, if variants aren’t mutated there.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
h2hq 5y ago
Animals also get covid - so there's little hope of preventing future variants at all. The majority of covid infections on Earth are not in humans at all.

kashunstva 5y ago

From the article: > A similar trend was reported by the New York City (NYC) Health Department, which reported that about 2% of Omicron cases were hospitalised in comparison to around 5% of Omicron cases. Huh? I'm assuming they meant: "...in comparison to around 5% of _Delta_ cases." but who knows? For further comparison, according to data from the U.S. CDC for the 2018-2019 influenza season, the hospitalization rate was about 1.3%.[1] [1]: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html

jollybean 5y ago

This is click bait verging on vaccine minsinformation. The headline could be: "4 doses may not more effective at reducing Omicron infections than 3 doses, but 3 doses is actually very good at preventing infection, hospitalization and death from all known variants - and even 2 doses - while not providing a lot of protection against Omicron infection ... does actually provide good protection against infection from other variants but also hospitalization and death from all variants, including Omicron." 1) 3 doses are actually fairly effective at stopping Omicron infections, at least for 12 weeks - we can see this definitively in data from around the world. They indirectly mention this in the article. Ontario data [1] In the first graph, you see COVID 'cases' increase with the onset of Omicron, even among those with 2 doses - clearly 2 doses are less effective at preventing Omicron cases - but still pretty good at stopping Hospitalization and Death. Later in the time series, precisely when people started getting their boosters, you see a rapid increase in levels of protection against infection, hospitalization and death. 2) The vaccines by all accounts still seem to be effective at preventing cases (and hospitalizations and death) of previous, more deadly variants. 3) The difference between 4 and 3 doses is noteworthy, but it's definitely misleading to indicate 'ineffective when the baseline of comparison, i.e. 3 doses, is actually 'effective'. 4) As we can see from the Ontario - even 2 doses - but certainly 3 doses - are very effective in reducing hospitalization rates and death. (From that data 'minimum 2 doses' reduces Hospitalization by 5x and death by 20x. That is mixed data from 2 and 3 doses, given the ratio of those having 3rd dose, we can estimate that 3 doses is even considerably more effective than those numbers). Given the inconsistency between the headline, their own stated information, and easily available data from various legitimate authorities - I suggest that this article, at least the headline, constitutes purposeful misinformation. [1] https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/ https://covid19-sciencetable.ca/ontario-dashboard/

Proven 5y ago

rhema 5y ago

I was thinking about immunity generally, from a Shannon information theory perspective. It's impossible that the human body has an infinite ability to absorb immunity, because otherwise we could store an infinite amount of information. Therefore, there must be some kind of forgetting that happens. Likewise, the body can only learn so much from repeated exposure. Is anyone aware of any writing that explains immunity from an information theory perspective?

kittiepryde 5y ago
https://www.cell.com/trends/cancer/fulltext/S2405-8033(20)30340-X https://www.cell.com/trends/cancer/fulltext/S2405-8033(20)30... Looks early on, inconclusive atm, but interesting ( this is specifically applied to cancer and not a viral infection )
nootropicat 5y ago
"Why must T cells be cross-reactive?" https://www.nature.com/articles/nri3279 https://www.nature.com/articles/nri3279
nojokes 5y ago
It is a good perspective. I mean invoking Shannon part. There are definitely limitations to the antibody levels because otherwise we would just explode, right? But it makes sense to try to keep levels high in the event of pandemic. Our bodies unfortunately could not do it on their own so we have to beat them to do this.

robbrown451 5y ago

I'm curious about the argument that giving too many boosters takes away the vaccine from "people in low and middle-income countries." Surely we have the capacity to make enough vaccines for everyone by now. It's just a matter of economics. Giving more boosters really shouldn't reduce supply, if there is money to make vaccines for everyone in the lower income countries, they will be made.

jimmyswimmy 5y ago
At some point the economics involves construction of a new facility, which is a pretty significant cost and, perhaps, only makes sense to a company if they expect there to be a persistent need for what they can produce in that facility. So, if company decision makers don't perceive that they can sell more vaccines, for a long time (many years), building a new factory will be off the table.
giantg2 5y ago
We don't have the capacity to vaccinate the whole world every 6 months.
- kittiepryde 5y ago
  https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinemanufacturing https://launchandscalefaster.org/covid-19/vaccinemanufacturi... But, we could, at 12 billion doses a year already realizable, getting to 14+ isn't far fetched -- distribution and convincing people to take them would be much more challenging. I'm not which of distribution and cooperation is the hardest, but, manufacturing is certainly not the blocker.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    What's the date of that article? It seems old. I haven't heard of anyone talking about herd immunity at 70% since at least before delta. These other articles seem to say that it's not feasible in the short term and have a better count that is nor just projections based on past capacity. https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/04/health/andrew-pollard-booster-vaccines-feasibility-intl/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/04/health/andrew-pollard-booster... https://www.barrons.com/articles/a-plan-to-break-the-vaccine-manufacturing-bottleneck-51621952245 https://www.barrons.com/articles/a-plan-to-break-the-vaccine...

virgulino 5y ago

Something is not right. CNN reported the same study, with contradictory quotes from the same doctor: Fourth vaccine dose boosts antibodies, researchers say, but likely not enough to prevent Omicron breakthrough infections http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154abf627b http://lite.cnn.com/en/article/h_69134b5be555abcb7c1609154ab... --- healthpolicy-watch.news ----- According to Regev-Yochay, the third dose resulted in “much higher antibodies, neutralization and the antibodies were not just higher in quantity but also in quality” than the second dose – but the fourth vaccine did not show significant antibody increase. ”Maybe there are a few more antibodies but not much more compared to the third dose,” said Regev-Yochay. ----- --- cnn.com ----- "We have a follow-up of the Pfizer vaccine for two weeks now, and we have a follow-up of the Moderna vaccine just for one week at this time point. And what we see is that the Pfizer vaccine, after two weeks, you see an enhancement or increase in the number of antibodies and neutralizing antibodies -- a pretty nice increase. It's even a little bit higher than what we had after the third dose," Regev-Yochay said. -----

twofornone 5y ago
- javagram 5y ago
  > Who could possibly have predicted that a non sterilizing vaccine would put selection pressure on a rapidly mutating coronavirus, right? Are you referring to the Omicron variant? Current theories suggest that Omicron evolved inside a HIV patient. There is no reason to believe the patient was vaccinated. Omicron evades the body’s antibodies generated from infection by the delta or alpha or wild type variants, so there’s no plausible case for vaccine “selective pressure” especially as it emerged from a region of the world with very low vaccination rates.
- nojokes 5y ago
armchairhacker 5y ago
My understanding is that a fourth booster doesn't seem to prevent breakthrough infections (which are very common with Omicron), but it does seem to reduce severity and hospitalizations (which are very uncommon with Omicron). Maybe it reduces the chance of a breakthrough but it's still common. This is what the third booster does and probably also what being vaccinated closer to infection date does. This is exactly what happens when you have more antibodies.

daveofdaves 5y ago

I like how they put CDC thumbnail in the screenshot

shutupsquared 5y ago

Madmallard 5y ago

How many goes at vaccine whackamole results in the immune system being much worse off and/or side effect incidence exceeds the incidence of the original virus's problems?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Jimmc414 5y ago

Rochelle Walensky, the CDC director, has stated that vaccines do reduce severity, but they do not stop transmission. Assuming her words represent the scientific and expert opinion, could someone offer a coherent argument as to why there is so much pressure for others to get vaccinated? Is fear of the unvaccinated clogging up hospitals the primary motivation?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mmmrtl 5y ago
stopping transmission is an impossibly high bar. Vaccines reduce transmission. Really really shockingly unexpectedly well for the first few months, in previous waves, but that sterilizing antibody-mediated immunity wanes. The booster restores that efficacy against transmission, but omicron's immune evasion means that even a booster only gets to ~70% efficacy against cases/transmission, compared to the surprise finding of ~95% efficacy for the first two doses. Fewer people spreading the virus -> fewer cases -> not as bad of a time. The other important factor is that because your immune system is primed to recognize SARS-CoV-2 after vaccination, even if you do get infected, it responds and clears the infection more quickly than it would otherwise. That could mean you're never infectious, or infectious for fewer days, reducing transmission. Pre-omicron, breakthrough infections were infectious for 5.5 days on average, compared to 7.5 days for infections in unvaccinated people (https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507 https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2102507). Yes, all this to maintain some semblance of healthcare for society, and to fill up fewer reefer trucks with body bags.
- landemva 5y ago
  Polio was stopped. Since we can't stop Covid in wild animals, and since severity is moderating, when do we plan to end Covid mandates?
- Jimmc414 5y ago
  I don't believe that is accurate. Several studies show no significant difference between the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated. Here is one https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-similar-between-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people https://www.ucdavis.edu/health/covid-19/news/viral-loads-sim... Also, recent reports from Denmark seem to indicate that vaccinated at best have equal protection against Omicron. Too early to declare this as fact, but the initial data actually favors a slight negative efficacy.

feupan 5y ago

Sorry but what’s this website? I don’t think this should be on HN given the current novax climate. Let’s wait for legitimate sources.

benmw333 5y ago

LeoPanthera 5y ago
> I do not wear a mask. No vax. Why not?
- lambdaba 5y ago
  For the vax, with omnicron being so mild, it seems like a bad trade-off to get vaccinated with v1 Covid with it's presumably more nasty spike protein rather than risk infection (which seems unavoidable anyway?) also, it's known that 2 weeks past vaccination your immune system is weakened, you are more susceptible so it seems like a particularly bad idea during a surge
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    Given that the (vast, vast) majority of doctors are strongly recommending it, do you believe that they are lying, or that they are simply mistaken and you know better?
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      I don't know, I just see the virus has evolved into a very mild variant that even triple-vaxed don't seem protected from, and that the original vaccine has been designed with a spike protein that has since greatly mutated.
- dgfitz 5y ago
  Why does it matter?
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    It seems very selfish to me, knowing you are maximizing the risk of passing the infection on to other people, and prolonging the pandemic for everyone. Maybe you are fearful of the vaccine, but the sheer number of people who have received one should, if you understand basic statistics, cure you of that fear. Even if it doesn't, refusing to wear a mask is just plain arrogant.

stuaxo 5y ago

Great, can we get on with vaccinating the rest of the world now ?

landemva 5y ago
With whose money? Is it possible to vaccinate all wild animals and every house cat?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  The vaccinated still get and spread COVID and it is quite possible vaccinated individuals may actually contribute more than unvaxxed to more dangerous variants.
  - nojokes 5y ago
    New variants need more mutation cycles. If vaccines slow down transmission (what they do) then they contribute to lower probability of emergence of new variants.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      There is already plenty of proof that vaccines cause viruses to mutate to become more virulent, and with Omicron transmission and replication are not being slowed down like before. In fact, recent studies show triple-vaxxed more likely to get Omicron than unvaxxed.
      - nojokes 5y ago
        You mean that chicken thing? Total different. But it could have happened. Sars-cov died off because it was too deadly and not enough infectious. Imaging there was a vaccine against Sars-cov to make it less deadly. Perhaps we could have kept it in circulation and natural selection would have eliminated all the anti-vaxxers... But Sars-cov-2 is different. It is without doubt in circulation and mutating. Less it mutates, less new versions it can make. Because COVID-19 vaccines limit replication and transmission, they also limit new variant emergence. Had this person that gave omicron to the world been vaccinated, omicron would have lost its change. Now about omicron infecting more people who have gotten booster is completely wrong. Totally. It is just your anti-vaxxer mind messing with you. This is the way your dark mind functions - making things up.

hourislate 5y ago

Folks shouldn't worry whether it's effective or not. Just go get it because it's never a bad thing to keep everything topped up. I hope they mandate everyone to take those new pills Pfizer came out with, that will probably make us super human Covid fighting machines. If we just keep taking boosters and those new pills Covid doesn't stand a chance. Please make sure you tell everyone who isn't vaccinated to get vaccinated so they don't make a vaccinated person catch Covid. https://ifunny.co/picture/don-t-talk-to-me-unless-you-re-gigavakked-astrazeneca-6cQEyXvf8?s=cl https://ifunny.co/picture/don-t-talk-to-me-unless-you-re-gig...

encryptluks2 5y ago
I hope this is sarcasm.. it has to be. Although the term top up sounds like something the government would say, just like boosted. I'm waiting for the ads on television where they show old people getting "boosted" and talk about how great they feel afterwards, when in reality I've known several people that had to stay in bed for a few days after their vaccinations and acted like it was a normal thing.

deleted 5y ago

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benpiper 5y ago

https://notthebee.com/article/are-we-permitted-to-point-out-the-obvious-yet-about-covid-19-vaccines https://notthebee.com/article/are-we-permitted-to-point-out-...

nojokes 5y ago

hffftz 5y ago

fmajid 5y ago

There's no point in fourth boosters until an Omicron-specific vaccine is developed.