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There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit

by hguant 5y ago

There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money. I have enough for a down payment on a house, I meet my expenses for the month with 1/2 of one paycheck, I can buy a new car on a credit card if I wanted to. More money would be _nice_, and I imagine I'd be singing a slightly different song if I had kids, but it's much less important than knowing the work that I do has meaning and an immediate impact on the world, and about as important as working with new/interesting technology. I imagine there are a lot of early career (26-30 year old) software engineers who are in a similar boat. If money was a motivator I'd be serially founding companies and striving to be The Next Big Thing. I'm just not. I'm happy being hire number 13, or 99, and working with people I like doing work I find value in. Edited for spelling

k8sToGo 5y ago
That is how I feel as well. Sure I could increase my salary if I switched jobs and industry (like finance), but do I want to? The recruiter kept harassing me because he could not understand why I would not want to earn 30k more a year. Like you, I also do not have kids, so that makes things much simpler.
dhjhdskjsdjkds 5y ago
So this. I guess I have had around 17 bosses (direct and dotted line) in around 26 years of I.T., and yeah, there is a point where you hit a kind of pay "glass ceiling" in your region if you are a decent but non-stellar engineer (70-95%ile) such that an extra 10-20k teaser is just not worth leaving a cool/familiar boss/situation for an unfamiliar one. I'd move jobs if someone I knew and liked through my network wanted to hire me for the right job for a nice increase, but the idea of taking a +20k job with some random boss I have never seen under pressure or on a bad day--no way. Taking a job when you are older is like buying a house without an inspection--you better really know and like the bones. Who you work for is the #1 factor for me. Nothing worse than hitting 50 and having some hateful blowhard breathing down your neck. Stress just sucks in your 20s and 30s, it can kill in your 40s and 50s.
Syonyk 5y ago
> ...and I imagine I'd be singing a slightly different song if I had kids, Depending on the person, that may be a good motivator for them to not seek more money, but to seek more time instead. I'm certainly there. I've turned down more money when the position would mean that I was responsible for an awful lot more and it would take time away from my kids. When they're older and possibly out of the house, that may change, but for now? I'd rather have the time than the money because, like you, I have "enough." It's just not a limiting factor at this point in what I care to do, but time is.
pattusk 5y ago
I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that many companies are having with regards to hiring engineers at the moment. If you look outside of coastal cities, there are plenty of job offers for engineering jobs that pay less than 6 figures. Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm. And people job hop frequently for a few extra $k because that corresponds to a significant increase in quality of life for them. The difference between a 2 br and 3 or 4 br apartment, between another kid or not, etc... People will absolutely leave your company if they think they can get paid more elsewhere. People will absolutely pass over your job offer if they think they can get more elsewhere. You also see the reverse phenomenon which is that you'll find plenty of engineers doing soul-wrenching, boring jobs in toxic environment who still say because they are very generously compensated (hello FAANG).
- lhorie 5y ago
  I would posit that the OP underestimates the impact of his second point: remote-first in a covid world opened up a large swath of opportunities to get very large total compensation bumps everywhere. I'm part of a slack group comprised of ex-employees of a company I used to work at and some folks there expressed that it is entirely feasible to land jobs today that pay a full 100-200k over their current or previous compensation, thanks to big tech companies expanding engineering operations outside of Silicon Valley. Considering that each of these tech companies are trying to hire in the order of hundreds of engineers, and willing to accommodate remote work from locations that they previously did not consider, is it really a surprise that other companies with less competitive compensation packages are struggling to find talent?
  - richardfey 5y ago
    100k-200k on top of let's say 100k? So they would be making 250k per year? How common is this?
symlinkk 5y ago
You must live in the sticks or something. I make well over 6 figures and can’t afford a house.
- api 5y ago
  What do you consider the sticks?
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Sure you can. You just can't afford a house in 94027.
- caymanjim 5y ago
  Maybe not today, if you haven't saved, but if you have no major debt now, there is noplace in the country where six figures won't allow you to buy a house once you have a downpayment. Mortgages are cheaper than rent, and you're presumably living somewhere right now.
  - symlinkk 5y ago
    I mean that’s kind of a tautological statement, if you have a huge down payment of course you can buy a house?
    - caymanjim 5y ago
      My point is that a six figure income makes it possible anywhere. Especially a "well over six" income. Of course you have to save, but it's ridiculous to say it's unaffordable.
  - Thorrez 5y ago
    What is your definition of house? Does a studio condo count? And how far of a commute are you talking about? Let's take Mountain View. Looking at "houses" and "townhouses" on Zillow, the cheapest one is this one[1] for $1,295,000. Zillow says the estimated monthly cost is $6,176. I don't think that's possible on a $100k salary once you factor in taxes. Zillow also says the rent "Zestimate" is $3,949/mo, so Zillow thinks it would be cheaper to rent than to buy. One hypothetical reason that renting could be cheaper than buying is that landlords buy for the expected price growth rather than just for the rental income. > you're presumably living somewhere right now. Maybe with roommate(s). If you buy 50% or 33% or 25% of a house with your roommate(s), that's not really $100k buying a house, that's $200k or $300k or $400k buying a house. [1] https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1993-Plymouth-St-APT-8-Mountain-View-CA-94043/19512717_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1993-Plymouth-St-APT-8-Mo...
steve76 5y ago
anonporridge 5y ago
Also, I feel like engineers are much more likely to be attracted the FIRE mentality and tend to have the incomes and low spending habits that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s. I'm personally in that boat, and frankly, I'm a little bored but not bored enough to go back to work as an SE full time. If companies offered more part time work and highly flexible work, it might be enough to drag me back in. Even large six figure salaries just aren't enough money for the soul crushing reality of renting out my brain full time to solving someone else's problems now that I have enough.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s" Maybe a small subset. The median dev salary is $110k. So no, only a very small number are able to retire in their 30s.
  - anonporridge 5y ago
    The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
    - dnissley 5y ago
      The absolute value of your salary does highly correlate with cost of living, unfortunately. Which may have an effect on your savings rate.
      - anonporridge 5y ago
        Yes it does. If you have a high salary, you are probably living in a HCOL area. If you have a low salary for the same kind of work, then you are probably living in a LCOL area. The savings rates of these different individuals could be the same if the salary difference is proportional to the cost of living difference.
acchow 5y ago
> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore That's cuz your numbers are too small. Offer a 50% raise instead of a 20k raise and you will see different results. > Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money Plenty of stories on Blind of people shopping around and going from 150k TC to 350k TC, so I guess it really depends on your situation.
- humanrebar 5y ago
  This. Also, those highly paid engineers in other companies might be tired of working on surveillance tech but aren't willing to stomach 50% pay cuts because your company is shooting for "market rate" compensation instead of market clearing compensation.
  - tickerticker 5y ago
    Insight and nuance. Nice.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Nah, not for some. I've never made a six figure salary. I have quit jobs in the past that would be six-figure jobs in today's market. They demand too much time and become the central focus of your life and identity. That's not for me.
- shostack 5y ago
  Don't forget to tax out of that. And if they are well compensated to begin with that's at a high tax bracket. And for some of these people, the remaining amount just isn't worth it.
- emodendroket 5y ago
  Maybe so. But if you're not getting wildly underpaid those opportunities are few and far between.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  50% raises are extremely rare to get once you are an established Engineer in my experience. At least if you want to keep the other factors (working time, city etc) and not simply advance by switching to management or similar. One way is to try switching from a regular industry job to a “giant” such as a FAANG. But these are quite rare in most countries. Another way would be switching into specific industries like finance - but the high comp there traditionally means giving up some other things such as a guaranteed 40h-or-less workweek. Hard pass from many established engineers. A third option would be switching to a larger share of non cash comp, but again, equity large bonuses are not commonly part of European comp and comp in traditional industry.
giantg2 5y ago
If you're lucky... "There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore" Fixed it for you
dehrmann 5y ago
The interesting bit with covid is there are a lot fewer opportunities to spend that money, or opportunities that are less enjoyable.
- iancmceachern 5y ago
  For say travel or big events or the like. Still, there are many things that are equally or more enjoyable in this new post covid Era, like a jet ski, boat or RV. Depends on what you like doing I suppose.
ehnto 5y ago
Being able to work alongside the people you're solving the problem for is a really great intrinsic motivator. You can be abstracted away quite a bit as an engineer, which makes it so most of your motivations have to come from within and it ends up being quite a narcissitic evaluation of your role. You're not always going to love the problems you're solving, but when you know it's part of a bigger picture you believe in I think that's a huge motivator. I think most people of working age now have been part of the individualism movement, which leaves us pretty ill-prepared to deal with the feelings of discontent when we finally succeed at "getting ours" and realize it wasn't all that fulfilling. Solving problems that matter to the community you live in, or the greater society you're part of, has so much more intrinsic reward.
- hirako2000 5y ago
  I've come to this realisation as well. there is a tipping point where the impact we have starts to become a critical factor. when i started in the industry I'm in, I apparently had absolutely no problem being entirely detached from the people I impact. Even not knowing what exactly my value to society was didn't scratch my curiosity. 8y later, I'm desperate for any initiative no matter how small that I get to know who it's helping. It is now internalised, a strong demotivation happens each time something abstract comes my way, no matter how technically exciting the task is. Something else wroth mentioning, the whole remote work somewhat becomes also a factor against content to be part of a labor community. It's not an issue the first few years, but total remote work for over 5 years has started to make me value proximity to business circles. proximity with my colleagues and proximity with who use whatever we make. there is a sort of guilt that builds up when benefiting from the hard work of the local community to provide physical services (coffee shops, organic food markets, drivers, etc) and have our time spent online contributing to solutions with colleagues and paying users residing thousands of miles away, who only appear to exist as email addresses and occasional faces/voices spit out by a laptop.
np1810 5y ago
Your thinking is so resonating with mine too... Also I'd like to add... > 3. Some degree of repeatability in work environment. Instead of the above point, I am looking for... A place where I make greater impact in a small company working along side ethical people who are not trying to exploit their customers/consumers, rather than a FAAMG where you're replaceable within a few days and follow no ethics just revenue in mind... A place where managers are accommodating of suggestions just because I write code doesn't mean my ideas about the product/solution aren't worth listening to... A place where you admire or atleast respect the CEO and the company's business tactics instead of my ex-company whose past CEO is now an "astronaut" just to play a marketing gimmick I guess... :p Please connect with me if you consider your startup/company is one such place... ;)
tayo42 5y ago
Agree with this idea. Every job promises that it will be the best. But after a few new job experiences, i know how bad it can get. Yeah i could get another 20-50k but the chance its going to be a nightmare again isn't worth the risk I think. Some managers, idk what they're thinking.
- P_I_Staker 5y ago
  Yup this just happened to me for a measly $9k that I could have made working paid overtime in my last gig. It was my time to leave and the right call for other reasons, but I would not have picked this again if things were going well. Now I’m in a very adversarial relationship with my manager who seems to think $100k is insane compensation, he’s owed the world, and my senior status means I should just know internal processes and make me immune to debugging headaches. In the past when people struggled with tooling/debugging that was just the way the cookie crumbled. There was sympathy and understanding. Now I work with a jackass that just assumes someone is screwing up, and lashes out at people when things aren’t going well.
tick_tock_tick 5y ago
Also got the whole golden handcuffs thing. Unless a company is going to offer me a $800k signing bonus nothing is worth me change roles for another year and a half.
drivebycomment 5y ago
It's interesting that I came to a very different answer than "many engineers" you quote. If the money is the same, I'll happily take learning a new skillset, a new org, a new set of expectations. When I had not accumulated enough money early in my career, I consciously had to think about stable income. Now that I have accumulated non-trivial sum of money, I'd happily and readily take new and exciting challenges - i.e. I can take more risks as I can afford to, and I'm willing to take more risks for non-monetary reasons. And if the money is better, even better! Thus, in fact, that's exactly what I did in 2021 - I switched my job.
SOMA_BOFH 5y ago
>There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore clearly you've never been poor.
- leeoniya 5y ago
  the implication is that most people have a limit to how much money they can reasonably spend before they start seeking things other than more money in life. even a poor person can tell you that an extra $10M in their pocket will be no more life-changing than an extra $1M.
  - natdempk 5y ago
    I feel like there's a big difference between $10M and $1M. At $10M you're free to no longer work because of high returns from that money, you can effectively never worry about money again and live a comfortable life. At $1M that isn't true, you still need to work full time to maintain quality of life. $10M is obviously more life changing than $1M in terms of opportunities you can safely pursue.
    - leeoniya 5y ago
      i think it's a sliding scale. if you were previously living on streets and frequently going hungry, then you can likely sustain yourself very well still without working. 1M translates to 27 years at $3k/month expenses. if you chose to supplement that with work, you can easily double that runway. obviously it's not the same as $10M, which would allow you and your children to never work again, but jump between that and no food/no shelter is not as significant. for those who already have financial stability, $1M only serves as a safety net or retirement fund and cannot act as an early retirement plan without significant cutbacks, so the jump from 1->10 is significant. in the same way that 10M->100M extra income for Bezos is not gonna change much.
reedjosh 5y ago
I was quite satisfied with the position I was in at the last two companies I left. All the things you mention matter to me, but I added 50% to my salary on my first jump, then another 110% on my second. All in just over a year. Money is still my primary driver. It will be until I am fully financially independent. Not just able to live on a FIRE budget of $30k a year, but able to chase my own fairly expensive interests. You're right, I'm not going to leave for another $10k, but another $100k, sure, and right now that's not that difficult to achieve.
- polishdude20 5y ago
  How many years of experience do you have?
  - hungryforcodes 5y ago
    At least one it seems.
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    About four.
intricatedetail 5y ago
10k raise is not worth adding extra anxiety - unless your current job pays so little it will make a difference. Engineers are severly underpaid that's why money seem irrelevant, because these sums are too small to be.
emodendroket 5y ago
> I imagine I'd be singing a slightly different song if I had kids I don't know... as soon as you do the stability of an existing job seems more compelling.
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
For reasonably dynamic careers and standard way of life (like mine), I feel that there are plateaux in "quality of life". When you are out of school a change of 1000€ per year means nicer vacation. Go for it. The same 1000€ is something I would not even consider. I am at a plateau where it requires significantly more money to change your way of life, and the 1000€ would not be perceptible. Maybe that of you add the "retire early" part it may make sense to optimize your income, but it is too late for me anyway.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> > Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money. Would you feel the same if you were enticed to switch jobs with offers of 1.5x, 2x or more than what you're currently making? I think plenty of people would consider leaving their current employer, even with the headaches that comes with doing so, to make 50% to 100%+ over their current compensation package. I know I would. I agree that engineers might not jump ship for a $10k increase in income, and it seems to me that the market rate for engineers based on current demand isn't captured by offers of $10k to $20k above current salaries. That would suggest that if employers are truly that desperate for engineers, like they say they are, then they'd need to offer more money to outbid their competitors' offers. Truthfully, I have a feeling that many employers' choices of not offering larger compensation packages to potential employees don't stem not a rational economic choice, but from a feeling that such offers are "too much" for engineers. Some companies would rather not hire, and make less money, than hire new employees at their market rates and profit from their work.
nikanj 5y ago
If money isn't motivating people, you're not using enough. $10k is not worth learning a new skill, but $100k might be. "Learn Rust and pay for your kids' college in three quarters" sounds more appealing than "Learn Rust and maybe get a nicer trim level on your car"
- b112 5y ago
  Weird world you live in! I see endless employers post job postings with specific reqs, and presume engineers cannot learn new languages or skills. Oh no! You don't code in lang $x, but know 12 other languages? Clearly, you're not a fit for this job!
kstenerud 5y ago
> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: I dunno... maybe for hotshot FAANG jobs? I mean, I love where I work now, but if some company were to offer me 250k to jump ship, I'd be MIGHTY tempted!
jackofalltrades 5y ago
I understand yours and authors view about money, but for some people 10k per year raise is a really good amount. I was recently on that boat, jumped companies for a close to 10k/year raise because that was 1/3 of what I was making in my previous company. Development jobs aren't at all paid in the same scale in the US vs rest of the world (I'm in Europe).
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? Not to mention how much effort has to be put into the interview process, my time is worth money, I'm not giving away minimum 6 hours of it for free if I don't need to.
neilwilson 5y ago
Money is always a hygiene factor, not a motivating factor. Classic Herzberg. Money just needs to be enough. After that you have enrich the job sufficient to hook people in. Perhaps the first thing a business needs to do before it starts hiring is learn how to hire.
- hiq 5y ago
  > Money just needs to be enough. That's a moving target though, if your market value changed and you could now easily get +50%, your current comp won't be enough anymore.
deleted 5y ago
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wakeupcall 5y ago
My take: at least in the places where I've been, IT tech in the last ~20 years was dominated by enthusiastic youngsters like me. CS and CS-related fields were the default go-to job in my circles around the '90ies, creating a large surplus. If you wanted a job in the beginning of your career, you had to accept either a crappy job or a low-paying one. I've never seen in the eurozone the US-style crazy-high 100k+ salaries. In general, here an IT engineer hired fulltime fetches a rate which is comparable to many other regular jobs, and generally lower than other engineering positions. However the churn and stress is much, much higher in my career experience. We joke about JS, but almost everything around the IT has now super-fast refresh cycles which require never-ending honing of your skills just for the sake of it. That initial candidate surplus is now starting to age and drain. These CS candidates have now a decades-old experience in the current tech stack which is worth gold, but are also tired of the churn. You can still get them, but be prepared to pay them a lot more. Many companies which were founded on entry-level salaries will now see their workforce explode in cost. This is going to be huge with the current inflation in the next 2-5 years, where your average company raise won't cut anymore and you're forced to jump ship to maintain your purchasing power. The young talent is still there of course, but it's often more specialized than what I remember a few decades ago due to the growth of the field. This means that finding a good fit reduces your pool significantly, unless you accept your candidate will be learning for a long time.
siva7 5y ago
This is classic HN bubble. I would estimate that most software engineers around the world never come into this luxury situation where you can say that money just isn't motivating you anymore when considering new job opportunities.
- slim109ya 5y ago
  Exactly. And many of us have a hard time getting a single opportunity and feel lucky when we get a job.
- dm33tri 5y ago
  In less developed countries $10k is >= 40% annual salary for most developers with almost any skillset
ricardobayes 5y ago
I onboarded the concept of 'risk to reward ratio'. If you're a gambling man, you might call this '+EV moves only'. +10/20k is nice (if you need it), but the risk is great in a new team, new environment etc.
notyourday 5y ago
> "There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss?" > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” > Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money. I have enough for a down payment on a house, I meet my expenses for the month with 1/2 of one paycheck, I can buy a new car on a credit card if I wanted to. This entire thread is mind-blowingly backwards though it totally explains why we the industry is in this position. It starts with people saying that "they don't need more money" because they can borrow or they can $20k more by shopping around their resume if they need to, followed by people waxing about how $50k-$80k is a decent salary, followed by people saying "no one gets paid $250k out of college" It is very simple: $20k extra over a period of 52 weeks is extra $384 per week, which is less than extra $10 an hour. Here's why you cannot hire engineers: you are not paying them enough money. Engineer: $55k is good if i have <blah blah blah> Someone who wants to hire him and has no toys: $80k Engineer: I guess but only if I get to work only really cool projects Someone who wants to hire him and has shitty projects: $100k Engineer: And I want to have super smart people working with me Someone who wants to hire him and does not have smart people as he wants to build a team around this kind of engineer: $150k Engineer: Yeah, i guess it will work. Someone who wants to hire him and does not want him to shop around: $170k Engineer: hell yes! I'm going to unshitty these projects and make people around me smart! Oh, you don't want to pay $170k/year for an engineer because you think those plebeians should be working for $55k? Well, that's your problem. P.S. Can't hire at $170k/year? Offer $220/k. P.P.S. $10k/year is not a raise.
Beldin 5y ago
A 500-3000% increase in salary is different from a 5% increase, agreed. I would be genuinely amazed if you couldn't fill your positions once you started offering upwards of $1.5m yearly.
a_imho 5y ago
Wishful thinking at best, anchoring the narrative at worst. It is always about compensation (which money is one big part of). Sure, there is some overhead to changing jobs, but if it is all covered people will switch. It is pretty easy to see if one looks in the other direction. Would people who supposedly passionate about their jobs do it for free? If yes, they are either lying or it is not strictly a job. It is always a function of compensation with a capital C, even if it is expected to not be frank about it.
Chris2048 5y ago
> Is an extra $10k per year worth.. Extra X a year for a couple of year? No. Extra X a year for the rest of your working life? Yes. Consider that some employers anchor salaries to previous salaries ala "we won't pay you more than Y more than your previous salary" - so any raise represents an increase in all future offers. So despite the downsides, working for a couple of years under a new salary has essentially increased your worth in the eyes of the market.
monkeynotes 5y ago
Plus, as I found out, a $20k pay raise can equate to ~$8k extra in your pocket per year as the upper band tax rate is brutal here.
ahi 5y ago
I have kids, well 1 kid, and it still applies if not more so. Is making a bit more worth the stress of changing all of my childcare arrangements? My current job I can clearly state that I have school pickup/dropoff at this time so no meetings. A prospective employer could promise the same flexibility and after the initial 6 month grind I would be comfortable demanding it, but starting a employer/employee relationship that way is much easier said than done.
mydlyfecrysys 5y ago
> >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? > > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Not too long ago, I was at a Very Large Tech Firm. Base pay was great, and the RSUs were really great. I ended up leaving for a smaller company where IT is considered a cost center. The tech stack isn't all that exciting, total comp is a significant step down, and the only way to stay here and get a substantial raise is to get promoted... but I get along well with the people there, and I don't have to worry about off-hours emergencies. The only companies that might be willing to offer enough for me to take the jump away from that, would likely be a well-capitalized tech firm, of which few have a physical presence here.
Consultant32452 5y ago
You nailed it for me. Once I met a certain pay level I just started leveraging for lifestyle. The way to get me to jump to your org is less work for the same pay.
lkxijlewlf 5y ago
> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, True. But... When I hear "Best year ever!" But then hear, "Sorry, we can't give more than 3% raises". Someone is getting theirs. I want mine, too! I helped make this the best year ever, in very substantial ways.
javier2 5y ago
To add to this. I am already in the 49% tax bracket. So a 10k raise would not be worth learning a new organization and the risk of getting a worse boss.

by hguant 5y ago

k8sToGo 5y ago

That is how I feel as well. Sure I could increase my salary if I switched jobs and industry (like finance), but do I want to? The recruiter kept harassing me because he could not understand why I would not want to earn 30k more a year. Like you, I also do not have kids, so that makes things much simpler.

dhjhdskjsdjkds 5y ago

So this. I guess I have had around 17 bosses (direct and dotted line) in around 26 years of I.T., and yeah, there is a point where you hit a kind of pay "glass ceiling" in your region if you are a decent but non-stellar engineer (70-95%ile) such that an extra 10-20k teaser is just not worth leaving a cool/familiar boss/situation for an unfamiliar one. I'd move jobs if someone I knew and liked through my network wanted to hire me for the right job for a nice increase, but the idea of taking a +20k job with some random boss I have never seen under pressure or on a bad day--no way. Taking a job when you are older is like buying a house without an inspection--you better really know and like the bones. Who you work for is the #1 factor for me. Nothing worse than hitting 50 and having some hateful blowhard breathing down your neck. Stress just sucks in your 20s and 30s, it can kill in your 40s and 50s.

Syonyk 5y ago

> ...and I imagine I'd be singing a slightly different song if I had kids, Depending on the person, that may be a good motivator for them to not seek more money, but to seek more time instead. I'm certainly there. I've turned down more money when the position would mean that I was responsible for an awful lot more and it would take time away from my kids. When they're older and possibly out of the house, that may change, but for now? I'd rather have the time than the money because, like you, I have "enough." It's just not a limiting factor at this point in what I care to do, but time is.

pattusk 5y ago

I do not disagree with your take, but I think you may only be speaking for a subset of engineers that are already fairly well compensated. The article likewise seems to discard the importance of money in favor of three other more immaterial factors, but I do not think this is representative of the situation of the global job market right now. I also think such a perspective can not fully explain the difficulties that many companies are having with regards to hiring engineers at the moment. If you look outside of coastal cities, there are plenty of job offers for engineering jobs that pay less than 6 figures. Over in Europe and East Asia, $50 to $60k salaries are the norm. And people job hop frequently for a few extra $k because that corresponds to a significant increase in quality of life for them. The difference between a 2 br and 3 or 4 br apartment, between another kid or not, etc... People will absolutely leave your company if they think they can get paid more elsewhere. People will absolutely pass over your job offer if they think they can get more elsewhere. You also see the reverse phenomenon which is that you'll find plenty of engineers doing soul-wrenching, boring jobs in toxic environment who still say because they are very generously compensated (hello FAANG).

lhorie 5y ago
I would posit that the OP underestimates the impact of his second point: remote-first in a covid world opened up a large swath of opportunities to get very large total compensation bumps everywhere. I'm part of a slack group comprised of ex-employees of a company I used to work at and some folks there expressed that it is entirely feasible to land jobs today that pay a full 100-200k over their current or previous compensation, thanks to big tech companies expanding engineering operations outside of Silicon Valley. Considering that each of these tech companies are trying to hire in the order of hundreds of engineers, and willing to accommodate remote work from locations that they previously did not consider, is it really a surprise that other companies with less competitive compensation packages are struggling to find talent?
- richardfey 5y ago
  100k-200k on top of let's say 100k? So they would be making 250k per year? How common is this?

symlinkk 5y ago

You must live in the sticks or something. I make well over 6 figures and can’t afford a house.

api 5y ago
What do you consider the sticks?
oh_sigh 5y ago
Sure you can. You just can't afford a house in 94027.
caymanjim 5y ago
Maybe not today, if you haven't saved, but if you have no major debt now, there is noplace in the country where six figures won't allow you to buy a house once you have a downpayment. Mortgages are cheaper than rent, and you're presumably living somewhere right now.
- symlinkk 5y ago
  I mean that’s kind of a tautological statement, if you have a huge down payment of course you can buy a house?
  - caymanjim 5y ago
    My point is that a six figure income makes it possible anywhere. Especially a "well over six" income. Of course you have to save, but it's ridiculous to say it's unaffordable.
- Thorrez 5y ago
  What is your definition of house? Does a studio condo count? And how far of a commute are you talking about? Let's take Mountain View. Looking at "houses" and "townhouses" on Zillow, the cheapest one is this one[1] for $1,295,000. Zillow says the estimated monthly cost is $6,176. I don't think that's possible on a $100k salary once you factor in taxes. Zillow also says the rent "Zestimate" is $3,949/mo, so Zillow thinks it would be cheaper to rent than to buy. One hypothetical reason that renting could be cheaper than buying is that landlords buy for the expected price growth rather than just for the rental income. > you're presumably living somewhere right now. Maybe with roommate(s). If you buy 50% or 33% or 25% of a house with your roommate(s), that's not really $100k buying a house, that's $200k or $300k or $400k buying a house. [1] https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1993-Plymouth-St-APT-8-Mountain-View-CA-94043/19512717_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1993-Plymouth-St-APT-8-Mo...

steve76 5y ago

anonporridge 5y ago

Also, I feel like engineers are much more likely to be attracted the FIRE mentality and tend to have the incomes and low spending habits that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s. I'm personally in that boat, and frankly, I'm a little bored but not bored enough to go back to work as an SE full time. If companies offered more part time work and highly flexible work, it might be enough to drag me back in. Even large six figure salaries just aren't enough money for the soul crushing reality of renting out my brain full time to solving someone else's problems now that I have enough.

giantg2 5y ago
"that can get them retired easily by their mid 30s" Maybe a small subset. The median dev salary is $110k. So no, only a very small number are able to retire in their 30s.
- anonporridge 5y ago
  The absolute value of your salary doesn't tell you anything about how long it takes to get to retirement (or more accurately, financial independence). That's exclusively a function of your spending and saving rates. https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-si...
  - dnissley 5y ago
    The absolute value of your salary does highly correlate with cost of living, unfortunately. Which may have an effect on your savings rate.
    - anonporridge 5y ago
      Yes it does. If you have a high salary, you are probably living in a HCOL area. If you have a low salary for the same kind of work, then you are probably living in a LCOL area. The savings rates of these different individuals could be the same if the salary difference is proportional to the cost of living difference.

acchow 5y ago

> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore That's cuz your numbers are too small. Offer a 50% raise instead of a 20k raise and you will see different results. > Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money Plenty of stories on Blind of people shopping around and going from 150k TC to 350k TC, so I guess it really depends on your situation.

humanrebar 5y ago
This. Also, those highly paid engineers in other companies might be tired of working on surveillance tech but aren't willing to stomach 50% pay cuts because your company is shooting for "market rate" compensation instead of market clearing compensation.
- tickerticker 5y ago
  Insight and nuance. Nice.
throwawayboise 5y ago
Nah, not for some. I've never made a six figure salary. I have quit jobs in the past that would be six-figure jobs in today's market. They demand too much time and become the central focus of your life and identity. That's not for me.
shostack 5y ago
Don't forget to tax out of that. And if they are well compensated to begin with that's at a high tax bracket. And for some of these people, the remaining amount just isn't worth it.
emodendroket 5y ago
Maybe so. But if you're not getting wildly underpaid those opportunities are few and far between.
alkonaut 5y ago
50% raises are extremely rare to get once you are an established Engineer in my experience. At least if you want to keep the other factors (working time, city etc) and not simply advance by switching to management or similar. One way is to try switching from a regular industry job to a “giant” such as a FAANG. But these are quite rare in most countries. Another way would be switching into specific industries like finance - but the high comp there traditionally means giving up some other things such as a guaranteed 40h-or-less workweek. Hard pass from many established engineers. A third option would be switching to a larger share of non cash comp, but again, equity large bonuses are not commonly part of European comp and comp in traditional industry.

giantg2 5y ago

If you're lucky... "There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore" Fixed it for you

dehrmann 5y ago

The interesting bit with covid is there are a lot fewer opportunities to spend that money, or opportunities that are less enjoyable.

iancmceachern 5y ago
For say travel or big events or the like. Still, there are many things that are equally or more enjoyable in this new post covid Era, like a jet ski, boat or RV. Depends on what you like doing I suppose.

ehnto 5y ago

Being able to work alongside the people you're solving the problem for is a really great intrinsic motivator. You can be abstracted away quite a bit as an engineer, which makes it so most of your motivations have to come from within and it ends up being quite a narcissitic evaluation of your role. You're not always going to love the problems you're solving, but when you know it's part of a bigger picture you believe in I think that's a huge motivator. I think most people of working age now have been part of the individualism movement, which leaves us pretty ill-prepared to deal with the feelings of discontent when we finally succeed at "getting ours" and realize it wasn't all that fulfilling. Solving problems that matter to the community you live in, or the greater society you're part of, has so much more intrinsic reward.

hirako2000 5y ago
I've come to this realisation as well. there is a tipping point where the impact we have starts to become a critical factor. when i started in the industry I'm in, I apparently had absolutely no problem being entirely detached from the people I impact. Even not knowing what exactly my value to society was didn't scratch my curiosity. 8y later, I'm desperate for any initiative no matter how small that I get to know who it's helping. It is now internalised, a strong demotivation happens each time something abstract comes my way, no matter how technically exciting the task is. Something else wroth mentioning, the whole remote work somewhat becomes also a factor against content to be part of a labor community. It's not an issue the first few years, but total remote work for over 5 years has started to make me value proximity to business circles. proximity with my colleagues and proximity with who use whatever we make. there is a sort of guilt that builds up when benefiting from the hard work of the local community to provide physical services (coffee shops, organic food markets, drivers, etc) and have our time spent online contributing to solutions with colleagues and paying users residing thousands of miles away, who only appear to exist as email addresses and occasional faces/voices spit out by a laptop.

np1810 5y ago

Your thinking is so resonating with mine too... Also I'd like to add... > 3. Some degree of repeatability in work environment. Instead of the above point, I am looking for... A place where I make greater impact in a small company working along side ethical people who are not trying to exploit their customers/consumers, rather than a FAAMG where you're replaceable within a few days and follow no ethics just revenue in mind... A place where managers are accommodating of suggestions just because I write code doesn't mean my ideas about the product/solution aren't worth listening to... A place where you admire or atleast respect the CEO and the company's business tactics instead of my ex-company whose past CEO is now an "astronaut" just to play a marketing gimmick I guess... :p Please connect with me if you consider your startup/company is one such place... ;)

tayo42 5y ago

Agree with this idea. Every job promises that it will be the best. But after a few new job experiences, i know how bad it can get. Yeah i could get another 20-50k but the chance its going to be a nightmare again isn't worth the risk I think. Some managers, idk what they're thinking.

P_I_Staker 5y ago
Yup this just happened to me for a measly $9k that I could have made working paid overtime in my last gig. It was my time to leave and the right call for other reasons, but I would not have picked this again if things were going well. Now I’m in a very adversarial relationship with my manager who seems to think $100k is insane compensation, he’s owed the world, and my senior status means I should just know internal processes and make me immune to debugging headaches. In the past when people struggled with tooling/debugging that was just the way the cookie crumbled. There was sympathy and understanding. Now I work with a jackass that just assumes someone is screwing up, and lashes out at people when things aren’t going well.

tick_tock_tick 5y ago

Also got the whole golden handcuffs thing. Unless a company is going to offer me a $800k signing bonus nothing is worth me change roles for another year and a half.

drivebycomment 5y ago

It's interesting that I came to a very different answer than "many engineers" you quote. If the money is the same, I'll happily take learning a new skillset, a new org, a new set of expectations. When I had not accumulated enough money early in my career, I consciously had to think about stable income. Now that I have accumulated non-trivial sum of money, I'd happily and readily take new and exciting challenges - i.e. I can take more risks as I can afford to, and I'm willing to take more risks for non-monetary reasons. And if the money is better, even better! Thus, in fact, that's exactly what I did in 2021 - I switched my job.

SOMA_BOFH 5y ago

>There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore clearly you've never been poor.

leeoniya 5y ago
the implication is that most people have a limit to how much money they can reasonably spend before they start seeking things other than more money in life. even a poor person can tell you that an extra $10M in their pocket will be no more life-changing than an extra $1M.
- natdempk 5y ago
  I feel like there's a big difference between $10M and $1M. At $10M you're free to no longer work because of high returns from that money, you can effectively never worry about money again and live a comfortable life. At $1M that isn't true, you still need to work full time to maintain quality of life. $10M is obviously more life changing than $1M in terms of opportunities you can safely pursue.
  - leeoniya 5y ago
    i think it's a sliding scale. if you were previously living on streets and frequently going hungry, then you can likely sustain yourself very well still without working. 1M translates to 27 years at $3k/month expenses. if you chose to supplement that with work, you can easily double that runway. obviously it's not the same as $10M, which would allow you and your children to never work again, but jump between that and no food/no shelter is not as significant. for those who already have financial stability, $1M only serves as a safety net or retirement fund and cannot act as an early retirement plan without significant cutbacks, so the jump from 1->10 is significant. in the same way that 10M->100M extra income for Bezos is not gonna change much.

reedjosh 5y ago

I was quite satisfied with the position I was in at the last two companies I left. All the things you mention matter to me, but I added 50% to my salary on my first jump, then another 110% on my second. All in just over a year. Money is still my primary driver. It will be until I am fully financially independent. Not just able to live on a FIRE budget of $30k a year, but able to chase my own fairly expensive interests. You're right, I'm not going to leave for another $10k, but another $100k, sure, and right now that's not that difficult to achieve.

polishdude20 5y ago
How many years of experience do you have?
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  At least one it seems.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  About four.

intricatedetail 5y ago

10k raise is not worth adding extra anxiety - unless your current job pays so little it will make a difference. Engineers are severly underpaid that's why money seem irrelevant, because these sums are too small to be.

emodendroket 5y ago

> I imagine I'd be singing a slightly different song if I had kids I don't know... as soon as you do the stability of an existing job seems more compelling.

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

For reasonably dynamic careers and standard way of life (like mine), I feel that there are plateaux in "quality of life". When you are out of school a change of 1000€ per year means nicer vacation. Go for it. The same 1000€ is something I would not even consider. I am at a plateau where it requires significantly more money to change your way of life, and the 1000€ would not be perceptible. Maybe that of you add the "retire early" part it may make sense to optimize your income, but it is too late for me anyway.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> > Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money. Would you feel the same if you were enticed to switch jobs with offers of 1.5x, 2x or more than what you're currently making? I think plenty of people would consider leaving their current employer, even with the headaches that comes with doing so, to make 50% to 100%+ over their current compensation package. I know I would. I agree that engineers might not jump ship for a $10k increase in income, and it seems to me that the market rate for engineers based on current demand isn't captured by offers of $10k to $20k above current salaries. That would suggest that if employers are truly that desperate for engineers, like they say they are, then they'd need to offer more money to outbid their competitors' offers. Truthfully, I have a feeling that many employers' choices of not offering larger compensation packages to potential employees don't stem not a rational economic choice, but from a feeling that such offers are "too much" for engineers. Some companies would rather not hire, and make less money, than hire new employees at their market rates and profit from their work.

nikanj 5y ago

If money isn't motivating people, you're not using enough. $10k is not worth learning a new skill, but $100k might be. "Learn Rust and pay for your kids' college in three quarters" sounds more appealing than "Learn Rust and maybe get a nicer trim level on your car"

b112 5y ago
Weird world you live in! I see endless employers post job postings with specific reqs, and presume engineers cannot learn new languages or skills. Oh no! You don't code in lang $x, but know 12 other languages? Clearly, you're not a fit for this job!

kstenerud 5y ago

> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: I dunno... maybe for hotshot FAANG jobs? I mean, I love where I work now, but if some company were to offer me 250k to jump ship, I'd be MIGHTY tempted!

jackofalltrades 5y ago

I understand yours and authors view about money, but for some people 10k per year raise is a really good amount. I was recently on that boat, jumped companies for a close to 10k/year raise because that was 1/3 of what I was making in my previous company. Development jobs aren't at all paid in the same scale in the US vs rest of the world (I'm in Europe).

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? Not to mention how much effort has to be put into the interview process, my time is worth money, I'm not giving away minimum 6 hours of it for free if I don't need to.

neilwilson 5y ago

Money is always a hygiene factor, not a motivating factor. Classic Herzberg. Money just needs to be enough. After that you have enrich the job sufficient to hook people in. Perhaps the first thing a business needs to do before it starts hiring is learn how to hire.

hiq 5y ago
> Money just needs to be enough. That's a moving target though, if your market value changed and you could now easily get +50%, your current comp won't be enough anymore.

deleted 5y ago

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wakeupcall 5y ago

My take: at least in the places where I've been, IT tech in the last ~20 years was dominated by enthusiastic youngsters like me. CS and CS-related fields were the default go-to job in my circles around the '90ies, creating a large surplus. If you wanted a job in the beginning of your career, you had to accept either a crappy job or a low-paying one. I've never seen in the eurozone the US-style crazy-high 100k+ salaries. In general, here an IT engineer hired fulltime fetches a rate which is comparable to many other regular jobs, and generally lower than other engineering positions. However the churn and stress is much, much higher in my career experience. We joke about JS, but almost everything around the IT has now super-fast refresh cycles which require never-ending honing of your skills just for the sake of it. That initial candidate surplus is now starting to age and drain. These CS candidates have now a decades-old experience in the current tech stack which is worth gold, but are also tired of the churn. You can still get them, but be prepared to pay them a lot more. Many companies which were founded on entry-level salaries will now see their workforce explode in cost. This is going to be huge with the current inflation in the next 2-5 years, where your average company raise won't cut anymore and you're forced to jump ship to maintain your purchasing power. The young talent is still there of course, but it's often more specialized than what I remember a few decades ago due to the growth of the field. This means that finding a good fit reduces your pool significantly, unless you accept your candidate will be learning for a long time.

siva7 5y ago

This is classic HN bubble. I would estimate that most software engineers around the world never come into this luxury situation where you can say that money just isn't motivating you anymore when considering new job opportunities.

slim109ya 5y ago
Exactly. And many of us have a hard time getting a single opportunity and feel lucky when we get a job.
dm33tri 5y ago
In less developed countries $10k is >= 40% annual salary for most developers with almost any skillset

ricardobayes 5y ago

I onboarded the concept of 'risk to reward ratio'. If you're a gambling man, you might call this '+EV moves only'. +10/20k is nice (if you need it), but the risk is great in a new team, new environment etc.

notyourday 5y ago

> "There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, and companies are struggling to figure out how to work in that environment. This bit from the author hits the nail on the head: >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss?" > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” > Yes I could quit and get a ~20k raise by shopping my resume around, but I don't need the money. I have enough for a down payment on a house, I meet my expenses for the month with 1/2 of one paycheck, I can buy a new car on a credit card if I wanted to. This entire thread is mind-blowingly backwards though it totally explains why we the industry is in this position. It starts with people saying that "they don't need more money" because they can borrow or they can $20k more by shopping around their resume if they need to, followed by people waxing about how $50k-$80k is a decent salary, followed by people saying "no one gets paid $250k out of college" It is very simple: $20k extra over a period of 52 weeks is extra $384 per week, which is less than extra $10 an hour. Here's why you cannot hire engineers: you are not paying them enough money. Engineer: $55k is good if i have <blah blah blah> Someone who wants to hire him and has no toys: $80k Engineer: I guess but only if I get to work only really cool projects Someone who wants to hire him and has shitty projects: $100k Engineer: And I want to have super smart people working with me Someone who wants to hire him and does not have smart people as he wants to build a team around this kind of engineer: $150k Engineer: Yeah, i guess it will work. Someone who wants to hire him and does not want him to shop around: $170k Engineer: hell yes! I'm going to unshitty these projects and make people around me smart! Oh, you don't want to pay $170k/year for an engineer because you think those plebeians should be working for $55k? Well, that's your problem. P.S. Can't hire at $170k/year? Offer $220/k. P.P.S. $10k/year is not a raise.

Beldin 5y ago

A 500-3000% increase in salary is different from a 5% increase, agreed. I would be genuinely amazed if you couldn't fill your positions once you started offering upwards of $1.5m yearly.

a_imho 5y ago

Wishful thinking at best, anchoring the narrative at worst. It is always about compensation (which money is one big part of). Sure, there is some overhead to changing jobs, but if it is all covered people will switch. It is pretty easy to see if one looks in the other direction. Would people who supposedly passionate about their jobs do it for free? If yes, they are either lying or it is not strictly a job. It is always a function of compensation with a capital C, even if it is expected to not be frank about it.

Chris2048 5y ago

> Is an extra $10k per year worth.. Extra X a year for a couple of year? No. Extra X a year for the rest of your working life? Yes. Consider that some employers anchor salaries to previous salaries ala "we won't pay you more than Y more than your previous salary" - so any raise represents an increase in all future offers. So despite the downsides, working for a couple of years under a new salary has essentially increased your worth in the eyes of the market.

monkeynotes 5y ago

Plus, as I found out, a $20k pay raise can equate to ~$8k extra in your pocket per year as the upper band tax rate is brutal here.

ahi 5y ago

I have kids, well 1 kid, and it still applies if not more so. Is making a bit more worth the stress of changing all of my childcare arrangements? My current job I can clearly state that I have school pickup/dropoff at this time so no meetings. A prospective employer could promise the same flexibility and after the initial 6 month grind I would be comfortable demanding it, but starting a employer/employee relationship that way is much easier said than done.

mydlyfecrysys 5y ago

> >Is an extra $10k per year worth learning a new org, a new skillset, a new set of expectations, a new set of coworkers, and a new boss? > > For many engineers, the answer is: “No.” Not too long ago, I was at a Very Large Tech Firm. Base pay was great, and the RSUs were really great. I ended up leaving for a smaller company where IT is considered a cost center. The tech stack isn't all that exciting, total comp is a significant step down, and the only way to stay here and get a substantial raise is to get promoted... but I get along well with the people there, and I don't have to worry about off-hours emergencies. The only companies that might be willing to offer enough for me to take the jump away from that, would likely be a well-capitalized tech firm, of which few have a physical presence here.

Consultant32452 5y ago

You nailed it for me. Once I met a certain pay level I just started leveraging for lifestyle. The way to get me to jump to your org is less work for the same pay.

lkxijlewlf 5y ago

> There comes a point where the money just isn't a motivating factor anymore, True. But... When I hear "Best year ever!" But then hear, "Sorry, we can't give more than 3% raises". Someone is getting theirs. I want mine, too! I helped make this the best year ever, in very substantial ways.

javier2 5y ago

To add to this. I am already in the 49% tax bracket. So a 10k raise would not be worth learning a new organization and the risk of getting a worse boss.