76 ms·

The important part is buried: The fit of the mask is the most important factor, Bodenschatz, said. “It turns out that leakage dominates over filtration.” Masks

The important part is buried: The fit of the mask is the most important factor, Bodenschatz, said. “It turns out that leakage dominates over filtration.” Masks should have a tight fit around the face and nose to minimize any air leakage.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
verytrivial 5y ago
I switched to N95 some months ago after being called back into the office. It is incredibly clear upon first wear that air has a much great chance of going through this style mask instead of around it. Basically, if the mask fabric isn't slightly inflating and deflating on each breath, you're wearing it wrong. It's stunning to me that literally billions of pounds are being spent on now futile testing without getting this basic stuff right.
- dboreham 5y ago
  I'm skeptical of any ear-loop design (although I wear them myself in relatively benign environments such as Costco). For "hot" environments such as airports, shuttle busses, airplanes, I've switched to the kind that has bands that go around the head. The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. Never had that experience with the ear loop kind.
  - oxymoran 5y ago
    An airplane that has constantly filtered air is a hot spot but Costco is relatively benign? Your risk calculus is out of whack.
    - verytrivial 5y ago
      Dispersion matters, as does exposure time. A single inhalation of recently expelled air can be enough. You might waft past someone in Costco, but you could be sitting in the air current of someone shedding virus particles for hours on end, even if the particles are eventually being filtered by A/C.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        Open the vent above you and point it at your face.
        FabHK 5y ago
        I have seen airlines discourage that. I wonder whether it makes things better or worse (or whether it is some sort of prisoner's dilemma - making it better for yourself, but worse for others?).
        jaywalk 5y ago
        Really? Admittedly I only fly Delta, but they've certainly never discouraged it. Also, I don't really see how it could make things worse for others, since it would also be pushing any viral particles you may be expelling towards the floor where the intake vents reside.
      - ekidd 5y ago
        > but you could be sitting in the air current of someone shedding virus particles for hours on end, even if the particles are eventually being filtered by A/C. Airplane air turnover is _extremely_ high, apparently even higher than many specialized hospital environments. If there's any danger, I would imagine that it would come from the immediate airflow within the cabin, and not from gradual saturation of the cabin's air. I don't actually have a good model of airplane risks. But I recognize that many of my intuitive assumptions about what's going on would need to be checked against real data.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > An airplane that has constantly filtered air is a hot spot but Costco is relatively benign? An airplane where you are packed in with other people in a small tube close enough that you are essentially (and often actually) in physical contact on one (or both if you are neither in a window or aisle seat) side is a hot spot, but Costco where you are moving, everyone else is moving, there are wide spaces where you don't have to be particularly close, and high ceilings and wide bay doors so it's essentially outside, is relatively benign. > Your risk calculus is out of whack. No, yours is, unless you are on some weird airplanes where everyone is wearing a breathing mask so that the constant filtration happens before your exhalation gets all over your neighbors.
  - vinay427 5y ago
    That’s why N95 masks don’t permit ear loops, as far as I understand. The KN95 masks (similar certification from China) fill this purpose for people that really want ear loops, but I also find that they’re decidedly trickier to fit on my face than headbands.
    - ekidd 5y ago
      I think a lot of this comes down to personal fit. For example, I have three sets of masks: - NIOSH certified N-95s with a head band. These are just about impossible to keep from fogging my glasses. The long elastic seems to "fatigue" after an hour or so and I can't keep a seal. - Good KN-95s sourced from an allegedly trustworthy source. These seal much better around the nose, but they tend to leak under the chin. - KF-94s (chosen after trying on multiple brands). These use ear loops, but they seal very tightly around the nose, and they seal tighter than the KN-95s at the bottom. They do occasionally leak a small amount of air at the bottom. I suspect that as long as you're using certified, authentic "94+" masks with good filtration ratings, the biggest remaining factor is how well a specific mask seals for a specific person.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. Never had that experience with the ear loop kind. I notice that with KN95 ear loop masks consistently.
    - newman8r 5y ago
      That's interesting. Now I want to try to cook some onions with a mask on and see what I can smell - although I know aromatic compounds are pretty small.
      - chuckledog 5y ago
        That’s what I tell my kids (tweens): if you could smell their fart, you could catch their COVID.
        timr 5y ago
        And if you're vaccinated, you're protected. So stop worrying about masks. Also, you're kids, so you were at extremely tiny risk in the first place.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > And if you're vaccinated, you're protected. So stop worrying about masks. Better than not vaxxed, but with Omicron not nearly as well protected as against prior strains, and with both Omicron and Delta not protected against infection and retransmission enough not to be a public health risk if unmasked, even if your personal risk is low because of your combination to age, vaccination status, and general health.
        timr 5y ago
        > Better than not vaxxed, but with Omicron not nearly as well protected as against prior strains ...against symptomatic infection. The vaccines still provide excellent protection against severe outcomes. There is no debate on this point. > with both Omicron and Delta not protected against infection and retransmission enough not to be a public health risk if unmasked The vaccines still reduce risk of infection by 30% (if not more), even against Omicron. You need only look at the statistics from a state that breaks down by vaccination status to see that this is true. As of right now, the unvaccinated in NYC have a case rate of 3292 per 100k, and the vaccinated have a case rate of 457 per 100k -- a seven-fold reduction in risk of infection. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily Masks are nowhere near this level of effect size. Worrying about masks after vaccination is the ultimate bikeshed. You've already done the thing that slashes your risk, and you're fixated on the thing that has almost zero evidence of effectiveness, because it's the thing you can see.
  - blip54321 5y ago
    General agreement. One correction: Airplanes are safer than Costco. When I first read the claims about air exchange rates on airplanes, I thought it was corporate propaganda. I looked at the research. Flying is authentically pretty safe. The air gets cycled and scrubbed insanely quickly. There's still a risk, but it's safer than Costco. If you do need to travel, you want to be paranoid exactly at airports and similar. The flight itself is not so bad. There was a flight a while back, where everyone wore masks (cloth or surgical) and had some crazy number of people with COVID on-board, but no in-air spread.
    - GordonS 5y ago
      Sample size of one, but every.single.time I fly long haul, I get a cold.
      - ssully 5y ago
        While it is certainly possible you got sick on the airplane itself, don't factor out the trip to the airport (cab/public transit) and all the different crowds your have to deal with at the airport itself. I know airport staff do the best they can, but during particularly busy travel times airport bathrooms can be incredibly disgusting in my experience.
        GordonS 5y ago
        Aye, it's far from certain it's happening on the aeroplane itself, but I've assumed it is because the air is so dry, and because I was always travelling in business, using lounges with nice toilets, not being next to other people outside of the plane etc.
        mrguyorama 5y ago
        I think you are underestimating how often business class people are traveling slightly ill
      - blip54321 5y ago
  - mindslight 5y ago
    > I've switched to the kind that has bands that go around the head ... when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask What kind of respirator have you switched to? Smells are vapors and not particles, so they're removed by eg activated carbon and not particulate filtration. I would bet your better respirator has "nuisance organic vapor" protection or something like that. For example, with my 3M silicone facepiece [0] you can use a 2291 filter (no OV), 2297 filter (nuisance OV, what I use for Covid), or a 60921/6001 for full OV which blocks any smell I've come across (in addition to protecting against hazardous levels of some specified organic vapors). [0] https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/40744O/3m-respirator-cartridge-and-filter-selection-poster.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/40744O/3m-respirator-car...
  - newman314 5y ago
    Not being able to smell noxious smells is one of the few upsides of wearing a mask. I've been using different P100 masks since the beginning of the pandemic and while it occasionally garners strange looks, I love not smelling anything when forced to use a port-a-potty.
  - el-salvador 5y ago
    > The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. I think wearing a mask has made me more sensitive to smells. So one of the things I like about masks is not having to smell other's bad breath occasionally or those closed air conditioned spaces that have "humid" smells.
mannykannot 5y ago
Presumably these tests were performed with well-fitted masks, or else it would seem inconsistent to claim both that N95 gives a dramatic improvement and that leakage dominates. Personally, I have yet to find a disposable mask, whether N95 or not, and with a nosepiece, that fits well enough that my glasses don't fog up when I go indoors (they do, however, meet the inflation test.) This leaves me unsure how much better N95s are in my case, though I will continue to use them. When I worked shifts in a vaccination center, I used medical tape along the top edge of the masks I wore.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Maybe my nose is funny or I'm just dumb but I've never managed to get any of these cheap masks to seal well enough over the nose that my glasses don't constantly fog up when it's cold. (workaround: act like they're reading glasses) No problems with reusable half-masks with their flexible rubber seals, though those are kinda impractical for the purpose of papers-please-compliance.
  - kadoban 5y ago
    What has worked for me: put the nose bit of the mask _high_ up on your nose, then do the usual thing of shaping the metal bit to your nose firmly, kind of try to shape the sides in just a bit, then put glasses on. You don't want to go too crazy, too squished if anything is worse than too loose. It's basically a pain in the ass but it works for my particular face anyway. I can now, 9 times out of 10 fit it well enough that my glasses won't fog, and with n95, there's no evident leaks.
- dv_dt 5y ago
  I find a model of kn95s that fits well with a minimum of fuss. I’m often surprised by smells in a room when I take it off. In comparison, a hospital supplied n95 my wife had was terrible to get to fit for my face. If you try one and it’s difficult to get to fit, try a different model. They’re not all the same.
- neither_color 5y ago
  Try KF-94s, there are several high quality korean brands on Amazon. These are the ones that are curved instead of beak shaped in front of your mouth and nose, giving you extra room to exhale. These never fog up glasses if you fit them properly.
bootlooped 5y ago
When I wear an N95 regularly I make sure to shave around my chin and beard. If I don't then I can feel all the airflow going through there instead of the filter material.
calyth2018 5y ago
Most definitely. Most of the time I don't even see people wearing their surgical mask properly. Hell, I just went to a medical clinic, and the assistant there didn't even press the nose wire completely against the nose. And that's not counting the chin diapers, nose rhinos, and the countless people taking the mask off by pulling on the outside of the mask instead of taking it off from the ear loops. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.
ren_engineer 5y ago
>“It turns out that leakage dominates over filtration.” Masks should have a tight fit around the face and nose to minimize any air leakage. Wasn't this exactly what people against mask mandates were ridiculed for saying? That most of the cloth masks were effectively just for appearances because they didn't form a seal around the sides of your mouth? I vividly recall people being mocked for suggesting this early in the pandemic. Seems like governments were just trying to cover for the fact that N95 masks were in short supply
- mindslight 5y ago
  Anti-maskers weren't being condemned for pointing out that ersatz cloth masks weren't very effective. They were condemned for levying that criticism as if it was a justification for doing nothing, as opposed to an argument for more effective off-the-shelf respiratory protection. (I ignored your attempt to drag "mandates" into this, because the primary aspect is personal behavior. I've yet to see an anti-mask-mandate protest/movement where everybody voluntarily wears respirators and distances, while philosophically arguing against legal mandates for doing so. And I would remember if I had, as this would align with my own politics)
  - rhino369 5y ago
    But none of the mask mandates--at least in the USA--have required masks that significantly work. So you have a law that requires uncomfortable masks that make it hard to communicate, but don't significantly reduce transmission. "Well some masks do work!" is not a good counter-argument, especially when its clear that nobody really expects the public to be able to wear the good mask the correct way. You are asking them to respond to an argument the pro-mask contingent was afraid to even make.
    - mindslight 5y ago
      Yes, the mandates as they currently stand are lame. But the anti-maskers are using that senselessness to argue for rejecting the whole idea of wearing any respiratory projection, which they demonstrate by personally choosing to not wear respirators. As I said, their argument is not akin to "respirators protect against the spread of Covid but the government shouldn't be mandating specific personal behavior", but is rather rejection of the whole subject. For an illustration of the difference, I recently had some trouble entering a hospital due to their mask mandate - they seriously insisted that I take off my P100 respirator and wear just their cosplay mask instead. I was able to escalate to someone higher up and find a (more but still not entirely sensible) compromise that they'd let me wear my own N95 under a cosplay mask. Where is the political group that represents my predicament, which was caused by a broken centralized mandate? It's certainly not in the unmasked people berating customer service people for enforcing some basic pandemic etiquette! > nobody really expects the public to be able to wear the good mask the correct way. IMO this was a terrible groupthink counterargument (aka straw man) led by the other political team of ersatz maskplayers and condescending healthcare workers, following from the early central authority lie that respirators are ineffective (in order to reduce consumer demand for them). The red herring that wearing a mask primarily protects others also followed from this rationalization of ersatz cloth masks. The open society / freedom approach is that you treat people like adults, assume they can understand a mildly complex thing, and then increase education to help everyone do better. Instead two years later we've still got the two political teams arguing over which stupid approach is better, while mostly looking at anyone who wears more effective respiratory projection as some aberration. If I had been in charge of pandemic response, I would have sent everybody a kit including a N95 mask as soon as possible, and made it clear that the primary reason to wear a respirator is to protect yourself and your family. Then I would have ramped up production of elastomeric half face masks (which are more comfortable and thus more sustainable), and perhaps just given those out as well - their (pre-pandemic) cost of $30 per person is peanuts compared to what we've lost. These utterly backwards post-reality memes spread by both political teams have caused so much needless death and suffering.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

verytrivial 5y ago

I switched to N95 some months ago after being called back into the office. It is incredibly clear upon first wear that air has a much great chance of going through this style mask instead of around it. Basically, if the mask fabric isn't slightly inflating and deflating on each breath, you're wearing it wrong. It's stunning to me that literally billions of pounds are being spent on now futile testing without getting this basic stuff right.

dboreham 5y ago
I'm skeptical of any ear-loop design (although I wear them myself in relatively benign environments such as Costco). For "hot" environments such as airports, shuttle busses, airplanes, I've switched to the kind that has bands that go around the head. The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. Never had that experience with the ear loop kind.
- oxymoran 5y ago
  An airplane that has constantly filtered air is a hot spot but Costco is relatively benign? Your risk calculus is out of whack.
  - verytrivial 5y ago
    Dispersion matters, as does exposure time. A single inhalation of recently expelled air can be enough. You might waft past someone in Costco, but you could be sitting in the air current of someone shedding virus particles for hours on end, even if the particles are eventually being filtered by A/C.
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      Open the vent above you and point it at your face.
      - FabHK 5y ago
        I have seen airlines discourage that. I wonder whether it makes things better or worse (or whether it is some sort of prisoner's dilemma - making it better for yourself, but worse for others?).
        jaywalk 5y ago
        Really? Admittedly I only fly Delta, but they've certainly never discouraged it. Also, I don't really see how it could make things worse for others, since it would also be pushing any viral particles you may be expelling towards the floor where the intake vents reside.
    - ekidd 5y ago
      > but you could be sitting in the air current of someone shedding virus particles for hours on end, even if the particles are eventually being filtered by A/C. Airplane air turnover is _extremely_ high, apparently even higher than many specialized hospital environments. If there's any danger, I would imagine that it would come from the immediate airflow within the cabin, and not from gradual saturation of the cabin's air. I don't actually have a good model of airplane risks. But I recognize that many of my intuitive assumptions about what's going on would need to be checked against real data.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > An airplane that has constantly filtered air is a hot spot but Costco is relatively benign? An airplane where you are packed in with other people in a small tube close enough that you are essentially (and often actually) in physical contact on one (or both if you are neither in a window or aisle seat) side is a hot spot, but Costco where you are moving, everyone else is moving, there are wide spaces where you don't have to be particularly close, and high ceilings and wide bay doors so it's essentially outside, is relatively benign. > Your risk calculus is out of whack. No, yours is, unless you are on some weird airplanes where everyone is wearing a breathing mask so that the constant filtration happens before your exhalation gets all over your neighbors.
- vinay427 5y ago
  That’s why N95 masks don’t permit ear loops, as far as I understand. The KN95 masks (similar certification from China) fill this purpose for people that really want ear loops, but I also find that they’re decidedly trickier to fit on my face than headbands.
  - ekidd 5y ago
    I think a lot of this comes down to personal fit. For example, I have three sets of masks: - NIOSH certified N-95s with a head band. These are just about impossible to keep from fogging my glasses. The long elastic seems to "fatigue" after an hour or so and I can't keep a seal. - Good KN-95s sourced from an allegedly trustworthy source. These seal much better around the nose, but they tend to leak under the chin. - KF-94s (chosen after trying on multiple brands). These use ear loops, but they seal very tightly around the nose, and they seal tighter than the KN-95s at the bottom. They do occasionally leak a small amount of air at the bottom. I suspect that as long as you're using certified, authentic "94+" masks with good filtration ratings, the biggest remaining factor is how well a specific mask seals for a specific person.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. Never had that experience with the ear loop kind. I notice that with KN95 ear loop masks consistently.
  - newman8r 5y ago
    That's interesting. Now I want to try to cook some onions with a mask on and see what I can smell - although I know aromatic compounds are pretty small.
    - chuckledog 5y ago
      That’s what I tell my kids (tweens): if you could smell their fart, you could catch their COVID.
      - timr 5y ago
        And if you're vaccinated, you're protected. So stop worrying about masks. Also, you're kids, so you were at extremely tiny risk in the first place.
        dragonwriter 5y ago
        > And if you're vaccinated, you're protected. So stop worrying about masks. Better than not vaxxed, but with Omicron not nearly as well protected as against prior strains, and with both Omicron and Delta not protected against infection and retransmission enough not to be a public health risk if unmasked, even if your personal risk is low because of your combination to age, vaccination status, and general health.
        timr 5y ago
        > Better than not vaxxed, but with Omicron not nearly as well protected as against prior strains ...against symptomatic infection. The vaccines still provide excellent protection against severe outcomes. There is no debate on this point. > with both Omicron and Delta not protected against infection and retransmission enough not to be a public health risk if unmasked The vaccines still reduce risk of infection by 30% (if not more), even against Omicron. You need only look at the statistics from a state that breaks down by vaccination status to see that this is true. As of right now, the unvaccinated in NYC have a case rate of 3292 per 100k, and the vaccinated have a case rate of 457 per 100k -- a seven-fold reduction in risk of infection. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page#daily Masks are nowhere near this level of effect size. Worrying about masks after vaccination is the ultimate bikeshed. You've already done the thing that slashes your risk, and you're fixated on the thing that has almost zero evidence of effectiveness, because it's the thing you can see.
- blip54321 5y ago
  General agreement. One correction: Airplanes are safer than Costco. When I first read the claims about air exchange rates on airplanes, I thought it was corporate propaganda. I looked at the research. Flying is authentically pretty safe. The air gets cycled and scrubbed insanely quickly. There's still a risk, but it's safer than Costco. If you do need to travel, you want to be paranoid exactly at airports and similar. The flight itself is not so bad. There was a flight a while back, where everyone wore masks (cloth or surgical) and had some crazy number of people with COVID on-board, but no in-air spread.
  - GordonS 5y ago
    Sample size of one, but every.single.time I fly long haul, I get a cold.
    - ssully 5y ago
      While it is certainly possible you got sick on the airplane itself, don't factor out the trip to the airport (cab/public transit) and all the different crowds your have to deal with at the airport itself. I know airport staff do the best they can, but during particularly busy travel times airport bathrooms can be incredibly disgusting in my experience.
      - GordonS 5y ago
        Aye, it's far from certain it's happening on the aeroplane itself, but I've assumed it is because the air is so dry, and because I was always travelling in business, using lounges with nice toilets, not being next to other people outside of the plane etc.
        mrguyorama 5y ago
        I think you are underestimating how often business class people are traveling slightly ill
    - blip54321 5y ago
- mindslight 5y ago
  > I've switched to the kind that has bands that go around the head ... when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask What kind of respirator have you switched to? Smells are vapors and not particles, so they're removed by eg activated carbon and not particulate filtration. I would bet your better respirator has "nuisance organic vapor" protection or something like that. For example, with my 3M silicone facepiece [0] you can use a 2291 filter (no OV), 2297 filter (nuisance OV, what I use for Covid), or a 60921/6001 for full OV which blocks any smell I've come across (in addition to protecting against hazardous levels of some specified organic vapors). [0] https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/40744O/3m-respirator-cartridge-and-filter-selection-poster.pdf https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/40744O/3m-respirator-car...
- newman314 5y ago
  Not being able to smell noxious smells is one of the few upsides of wearing a mask. I've been using different P100 masks since the beginning of the pandemic and while it occasionally garners strange looks, I love not smelling anything when forced to use a port-a-potty.
- el-salvador 5y ago
  > The difference is profound: when taking the mask off you notice that there are _smells_ that have been filtered by the mask. I think wearing a mask has made me more sensitive to smells. So one of the things I like about masks is not having to smell other's bad breath occasionally or those closed air conditioned spaces that have "humid" smells.

mannykannot 5y ago

Presumably these tests were performed with well-fitted masks, or else it would seem inconsistent to claim both that N95 gives a dramatic improvement and that leakage dominates. Personally, I have yet to find a disposable mask, whether N95 or not, and with a nosepiece, that fits well enough that my glasses don't fog up when I go indoors (they do, however, meet the inflation test.) This leaves me unsure how much better N95s are in my case, though I will continue to use them. When I worked shifts in a vaccination center, I used medical tape along the top edge of the masks I wore.

formerly_proven 5y ago
Maybe my nose is funny or I'm just dumb but I've never managed to get any of these cheap masks to seal well enough over the nose that my glasses don't constantly fog up when it's cold. (workaround: act like they're reading glasses) No problems with reusable half-masks with their flexible rubber seals, though those are kinda impractical for the purpose of papers-please-compliance.
- kadoban 5y ago
  What has worked for me: put the nose bit of the mask _high_ up on your nose, then do the usual thing of shaping the metal bit to your nose firmly, kind of try to shape the sides in just a bit, then put glasses on. You don't want to go too crazy, too squished if anything is worse than too loose. It's basically a pain in the ass but it works for my particular face anyway. I can now, 9 times out of 10 fit it well enough that my glasses won't fog, and with n95, there's no evident leaks.
dv_dt 5y ago
I find a model of kn95s that fits well with a minimum of fuss. I’m often surprised by smells in a room when I take it off. In comparison, a hospital supplied n95 my wife had was terrible to get to fit for my face. If you try one and it’s difficult to get to fit, try a different model. They’re not all the same.
neither_color 5y ago
Try KF-94s, there are several high quality korean brands on Amazon. These are the ones that are curved instead of beak shaped in front of your mouth and nose, giving you extra room to exhale. These never fog up glasses if you fit them properly.

bootlooped 5y ago

When I wear an N95 regularly I make sure to shave around my chin and beard. If I don't then I can feel all the airflow going through there instead of the filter material.

calyth2018 5y ago

Most definitely. Most of the time I don't even see people wearing their surgical mask properly. Hell, I just went to a medical clinic, and the assistant there didn't even press the nose wire completely against the nose. And that's not counting the chin diapers, nose rhinos, and the countless people taking the mask off by pulling on the outside of the mask instead of taking it off from the ear loops. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

ren_engineer 5y ago

>“It turns out that leakage dominates over filtration.” Masks should have a tight fit around the face and nose to minimize any air leakage. Wasn't this exactly what people against mask mandates were ridiculed for saying? That most of the cloth masks were effectively just for appearances because they didn't form a seal around the sides of your mouth? I vividly recall people being mocked for suggesting this early in the pandemic. Seems like governments were just trying to cover for the fact that N95 masks were in short supply

mindslight 5y ago
Anti-maskers weren't being condemned for pointing out that ersatz cloth masks weren't very effective. They were condemned for levying that criticism as if it was a justification for doing nothing, as opposed to an argument for more effective off-the-shelf respiratory protection. (I ignored your attempt to drag "mandates" into this, because the primary aspect is personal behavior. I've yet to see an anti-mask-mandate protest/movement where everybody voluntarily wears respirators and distances, while philosophically arguing against legal mandates for doing so. And I would remember if I had, as this would align with my own politics)
- rhino369 5y ago
  But none of the mask mandates--at least in the USA--have required masks that significantly work. So you have a law that requires uncomfortable masks that make it hard to communicate, but don't significantly reduce transmission. "Well some masks do work!" is not a good counter-argument, especially when its clear that nobody really expects the public to be able to wear the good mask the correct way. You are asking them to respond to an argument the pro-mask contingent was afraid to even make.
  - mindslight 5y ago
    Yes, the mandates as they currently stand are lame. But the anti-maskers are using that senselessness to argue for rejecting the whole idea of wearing any respiratory projection, which they demonstrate by personally choosing to not wear respirators. As I said, their argument is not akin to "respirators protect against the spread of Covid but the government shouldn't be mandating specific personal behavior", but is rather rejection of the whole subject. For an illustration of the difference, I recently had some trouble entering a hospital due to their mask mandate - they seriously insisted that I take off my P100 respirator and wear just their cosplay mask instead. I was able to escalate to someone higher up and find a (more but still not entirely sensible) compromise that they'd let me wear my own N95 under a cosplay mask. Where is the political group that represents my predicament, which was caused by a broken centralized mandate? It's certainly not in the unmasked people berating customer service people for enforcing some basic pandemic etiquette! > nobody really expects the public to be able to wear the good mask the correct way. IMO this was a terrible groupthink counterargument (aka straw man) led by the other political team of ersatz maskplayers and condescending healthcare workers, following from the early central authority lie that respirators are ineffective (in order to reduce consumer demand for them). The red herring that wearing a mask primarily protects others also followed from this rationalization of ersatz cloth masks. The open society / freedom approach is that you treat people like adults, assume they can understand a mildly complex thing, and then increase education to help everyone do better. Instead two years later we've still got the two political teams arguing over which stupid approach is better, while mostly looking at anyone who wears more effective respiratory projection as some aberration. If I had been in charge of pandemic response, I would have sent everybody a kit including a N95 mask as soon as possible, and made it clear that the primary reason to wear a respirator is to protect yourself and your family. Then I would have ramped up production of elastomeric half face masks (which are more comfortable and thus more sustainable), and perhaps just given those out as well - their (pre-pandemic) cost of $30 per person is peanuts compared to what we've lost. These utterly backwards post-reality memes spread by both political teams have caused so much needless death and suffering.