7 ms·

The article does not mention it, but mothers with small children have to nurse babies every couple of hours, even at night. So given that in middle ages, famili

by Arwill 5y ago

The article does not mention it, but mothers with small children have to nurse babies every couple of hours, even at night. So given that in middle ages, families had "copious numbers of children" (quote from the article), it is for sure that mothers would need to get up to feed a baby. And then possibly the whole family would woke up too. And if multiple generations were living in the same house, then even more probably there were babies too. I can imagine such a basic need being the root of the habit.

kelnos 5y ago
If that were the origin of it, then wouldn't there be three or four sleeps, not two?
- necovek 5y ago
  Babies, on average, only need multiple feedings a night through the first few months. Even if there was a new baby for one mother every year, that would be multiple feedings only for 3 months out of every 12 months. Just like parents today, people would power through that, and not make that a habitual sleeping pattern. I am not saying this makes the hypothesis of the origin being in parenthood true, just that it does not make it false either :)
bluGill 5y ago
The parent not caring for the baby learns to sleep through. My wife and I swap roles when we wean babies, we need just a couple nights to get used to the changed role.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Sleep through baby crying? I found my own babies cries to be a complete NMI. When we had infants I'd go back to sleep pretty well instantly (co-sleeping, with baby on a side-cot at bed level; baby breastfed, not by me) but in general one would wake to the little snuffles that precede the crying (I guess that helps to calm them before they get in a tizzy [in a state, brought on by their own actions, crying in this case]). I sleep through thunderstorms without stirring. I'm a few years out from dealing with crying babies and still if there's crying in the background, that sounds like one of my kids, I'll pop-up like a meerkat. The sound even gets though (non noise-cancelling) headphones when I'm gaming, though I won't know what I've heard until I take them off.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    The parent on duty learning to recognize the baby is stirring before she cries is a part of it.
- nottorp 5y ago
  It helps if the father is a night owl who works from home. Back when we had a baby (20 now) I preemptively bottle fed her at 2 am. She didn't wake up other than sucking from the bottle. Neither did her mother who was sleeping next to her.
wincy 5y ago
Hah as a husband and father whose wife coslept and exclusively breastfed for the first year, this has little merit. My wife one day commented on how it was great how our 6 month old daughter slept through the night and didn’t complain or ask for food. My wife quite literally breast fed in her sleep. Waking up to feed the baby is a very WEIRD way of looking at the world.
- 7thaccount 5y ago
  I'm not sure how typical your experience is. My daughter needed to be fed every few hours for the first 11 months. Both my wife and I were freaking zombies. It was rough on us. My wife would basically get a couple of hours every time the baby went down, but no long and peaceful sleep. In talking with friends, it would seem like our experience was extra crappy and yours is uncharacteristically mild. So the reality may be that many have to wake up at least once in the night to feed, so 2nd sleep kinda makes sense to me here. Not that I'm saying it's where the phrase comes from.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    My wife and I thought the same as you, BTW. Then she visited a sleep training centre with our daughter. Turns out if you stop feeding them or going to them in the middle of the night, they adapt and sleep through in less than a week.
    - necovek 5y ago
      Out of my very limited anecdotal experience (two small children), it mostly relates to how well fed they are: unfortunately, both of our two kids are bad eaters (the first just wouldn't eat enough, ever, even today at 5yo; the second is just extremely picky but eats plenty of what she likes). The older kid kept waking up in the middle of the night even at 3 yo (not to ask for food, but when we were sure he got stuffed in the evening, never did he wake up). The younger slept through the night at 10 months a few times, but as she gets pickier, those are actually less frequent now at 15 months than back then. I am sure we could train them with some sort of food scarcity approach (this is the only thing there is to eat; now is the only time you can eat) to teach them to eat enough of the food that's there, but that'd take a psychological toll for a few weeks on us that we aren't able/willing to take on.
1123581321 5y ago
The mother would either sleep with the baby or have it easily retrievable without significantly stirring. Dozing while nursing would provide some compromise between rest for her and the household, and enjoying/enduring some thinking time.
- watwut 5y ago
  This argument amounts to "cosleeping babies are not noisy" which is only partially true. They are less noisy, but they still do cry enough. > Dozing while nursing .... and enjoying/enduring some thinking time. Nah, it is just brain fog from slee deprivation. It is not free thinking time, it is "Jeeez I want to sleep" time.
  - 1123581321 5y ago
    They are less noisy, often enough to stay below the threshold that wakes others nearby. Sleep quality is a probabilistic game, as it sounds like we both know. :) The comment about contemplative dozing comes from my wife. I’ll pass on your feedback.
  - olau 5y ago
    I have had some great insights when I can't fall a sleep, in that brain fog you mention, sometimes where the feeling of my own self somehow disappears, seeing everything less through the lens of the self-protective consciousness, then I could suddenly understand and solve some nagging issues. But the toll is high, not sleeping properly ruins your life. And most of the time it's definitely not insights, but the opposite. For me, it's not something to seek out.
divbzero 5y ago
It’s funny that you mention that. When I was reading the article, it occurred to me how biphasic (or multiphasic) sleep resembles the schedule of a newborn’s parents. To me the lack of artificial lighting is a more compelling explanation, but who knows there could be many factors that contributed to the habit.
dirtyid 5y ago
Multiple generations also slept on the same bed, I'm surprised the theory is two sleeps and not multiple sleeps. Not that humans haven't habituated to group sleeps in tight quarters, but one bed feels qualitatively different than a bunch of tired submariners cramped in individual bunks or some similar arrangement.
m_eiman 5y ago
Here's a nice graphic showing a baby's sleep pattern during the first 15 weeks: http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg Since the text is in Swedish, here's roughly what it says: Every row is a day, black is sleep, white is awake.
- lopis 5y ago
  Oh wow. Babies sleep a lot.
  - Cthulhu_ 5y ago
    I'm jealous, lol
  - folli 5y ago
    Trouble is, they also wake up a lot.
    - throwaway744678 5y ago
      Every time they go to sleep, they eventually wake up !
  - necovek 5y ago
    As some parents would attest: some babies sleep a lot. They all wake up a lot :)
  - shawabawa3 5y ago
    This chart is just bullshit, there's absolutely no way a 15 week old baby sleeps from 11pm to 7am, then from 8am to 12pm, and then _another_ 4 hour nap from 2-6pm??, that's absolutely insane. Like, a doctor would be extremely worried about this baby
    - naikrovek 5y ago
      no. your babies may not do that, but it is considered normal. one of my four children slept 18 hours per day, in three 6-hour sessions, for many months.

by Arwill 5y ago

kelnos 5y ago

If that were the origin of it, then wouldn't there be three or four sleeps, not two?

necovek 5y ago
Babies, on average, only need multiple feedings a night through the first few months. Even if there was a new baby for one mother every year, that would be multiple feedings only for 3 months out of every 12 months. Just like parents today, people would power through that, and not make that a habitual sleeping pattern. I am not saying this makes the hypothesis of the origin being in parenthood true, just that it does not make it false either :)

bluGill 5y ago

The parent not caring for the baby learns to sleep through. My wife and I swap roles when we wean babies, we need just a couple nights to get used to the changed role.

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Sleep through baby crying? I found my own babies cries to be a complete NMI. When we had infants I'd go back to sleep pretty well instantly (co-sleeping, with baby on a side-cot at bed level; baby breastfed, not by me) but in general one would wake to the little snuffles that precede the crying (I guess that helps to calm them before they get in a tizzy [in a state, brought on by their own actions, crying in this case]). I sleep through thunderstorms without stirring. I'm a few years out from dealing with crying babies and still if there's crying in the background, that sounds like one of my kids, I'll pop-up like a meerkat. The sound even gets though (non noise-cancelling) headphones when I'm gaming, though I won't know what I've heard until I take them off.
- bluGill 5y ago
  The parent on duty learning to recognize the baby is stirring before she cries is a part of it.
nottorp 5y ago
It helps if the father is a night owl who works from home. Back when we had a baby (20 now) I preemptively bottle fed her at 2 am. She didn't wake up other than sucking from the bottle. Neither did her mother who was sleeping next to her.

wincy 5y ago

Hah as a husband and father whose wife coslept and exclusively breastfed for the first year, this has little merit. My wife one day commented on how it was great how our 6 month old daughter slept through the night and didn’t complain or ask for food. My wife quite literally breast fed in her sleep. Waking up to feed the baby is a very WEIRD way of looking at the world.

7thaccount 5y ago
I'm not sure how typical your experience is. My daughter needed to be fed every few hours for the first 11 months. Both my wife and I were freaking zombies. It was rough on us. My wife would basically get a couple of hours every time the baby went down, but no long and peaceful sleep. In talking with friends, it would seem like our experience was extra crappy and yours is uncharacteristically mild. So the reality may be that many have to wake up at least once in the night to feed, so 2nd sleep kinda makes sense to me here. Not that I'm saying it's where the phrase comes from.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  My wife and I thought the same as you, BTW. Then she visited a sleep training centre with our daughter. Turns out if you stop feeding them or going to them in the middle of the night, they adapt and sleep through in less than a week.
  - necovek 5y ago
    Out of my very limited anecdotal experience (two small children), it mostly relates to how well fed they are: unfortunately, both of our two kids are bad eaters (the first just wouldn't eat enough, ever, even today at 5yo; the second is just extremely picky but eats plenty of what she likes). The older kid kept waking up in the middle of the night even at 3 yo (not to ask for food, but when we were sure he got stuffed in the evening, never did he wake up). The younger slept through the night at 10 months a few times, but as she gets pickier, those are actually less frequent now at 15 months than back then. I am sure we could train them with some sort of food scarcity approach (this is the only thing there is to eat; now is the only time you can eat) to teach them to eat enough of the food that's there, but that'd take a psychological toll for a few weeks on us that we aren't able/willing to take on.

1123581321 5y ago

The mother would either sleep with the baby or have it easily retrievable without significantly stirring. Dozing while nursing would provide some compromise between rest for her and the household, and enjoying/enduring some thinking time.

watwut 5y ago
This argument amounts to "cosleeping babies are not noisy" which is only partially true. They are less noisy, but they still do cry enough. > Dozing while nursing .... and enjoying/enduring some thinking time. Nah, it is just brain fog from slee deprivation. It is not free thinking time, it is "Jeeez I want to sleep" time.
- 1123581321 5y ago
  They are less noisy, often enough to stay below the threshold that wakes others nearby. Sleep quality is a probabilistic game, as it sounds like we both know. :) The comment about contemplative dozing comes from my wife. I’ll pass on your feedback.
- olau 5y ago
  I have had some great insights when I can't fall a sleep, in that brain fog you mention, sometimes where the feeling of my own self somehow disappears, seeing everything less through the lens of the self-protective consciousness, then I could suddenly understand and solve some nagging issues. But the toll is high, not sleeping properly ruins your life. And most of the time it's definitely not insights, but the opposite. For me, it's not something to seek out.

divbzero 5y ago

It’s funny that you mention that. When I was reading the article, it occurred to me how biphasic (or multiphasic) sleep resembles the schedule of a newborn’s parents. To me the lack of artificial lighting is a more compelling explanation, but who knows there could be many factors that contributed to the habit.

dirtyid 5y ago

Multiple generations also slept on the same bed, I'm surprised the theory is two sleeps and not multiple sleeps. Not that humans haven't habituated to group sleeps in tight quarters, but one bed feels qualitatively different than a bunch of tired submariners cramped in individual bunks or some similar arrangement.

m_eiman 5y ago

Here's a nice graphic showing a baby's sleep pattern during the first 15 weeks: http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg http://www.eiman.tv/misc/somnrytm.jpg Since the text is in Swedish, here's roughly what it says: Every row is a day, black is sleep, white is awake.

lopis 5y ago
Oh wow. Babies sleep a lot.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I'm jealous, lol
- folli 5y ago
  Trouble is, they also wake up a lot.
  - throwaway744678 5y ago
    Every time they go to sleep, they eventually wake up !
- necovek 5y ago
  As some parents would attest: some babies sleep a lot. They all wake up a lot :)
- shawabawa3 5y ago
  This chart is just bullshit, there's absolutely no way a 15 week old baby sleeps from 11pm to 7am, then from 8am to 12pm, and then _another_ 4 hour nap from 2-6pm??, that's absolutely insane. Like, a doctor would be extremely worried about this baby
  - naikrovek 5y ago
    no. your babies may not do that, but it is considered normal. one of my four children slept 18 hours per day, in three 6-hour sessions, for many months.