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A pattern I've noticed with double job workers: 1. They tend to work double jobs at frankly lower tier companies with lower standards and significantly lower p

• riffic 5y ago
  > And you cannot put both jobs in your resume, only one on top of that, and this will show up in future background checks hah. yes you can. No one cares if you have multiple concurrent jobs on a resume. And no one cares about what the background check is going to show. This is all easily explained away.
• odonnellryan 5y ago
  For a short time I was "working two jobs" as part of a transition (everyone was aware) and I found it almost impossible to even manage one or two meetings a week at each job - conflicts were crazy. What are you supposed to do when you have a conflict, if you're keeping things secret? "that time doesn't work for me" "uh, why? I just hired you. You have another meeting?"
  • xwdv 5y ago
    You can’t just take any two random jobs, you need the right two jobs. One that doesn’t require meetings preferably.
    • odonnellryan 5y ago
      How many jobs are like that? All the jobs I have had, contractor or otherwise, require at least some meetings. I can't imagine a new hire who is making $150k/yr+ not being in a few meetings a week.
  • MattGaiser 5y ago
    Do you speak in the meetings you are in? I have a lot of meetings, but my part usually involves joining the meeting and doing little else. I could plausibly see someone doing both at the same time.
    • odonnellryan 5y ago
      Absolutely. Not for the entire meeting, but I try not to join meetings (at least long ones) where I'm not going to be participating.
      • MattGaiser 5y ago
        Ah. Maybe you are more senior. I speak in maybe 1 in 10 meetings that are not standup. I have muted them. Taken naps during them. Most of the time I just carry on working.
        • odonnellryan 5y ago
          Ah, that does suck. Yes I am a senior developer (or like to call myself that... I guess..)
          • MattGaiser 5y ago
            That makes sense. I am just moderately experienced run of the mill worker dev. At every company I have been with, there have been meetings between team lead/senior dev and product manager and then there are 4-10 other devs just chilling while they have this conversation. Or the even bigger architecture convos involving several team leads and all their subordinates chilling in the Zoom. Have had too many fellow devs joke about how half our value is as a visual entourage. Could someone be in two visual entourages at once? Probably.
• redisman 5y ago
  This is kind of an absurd counter. Not everyone can just choose to become a high level engineer at the handful of the most selective companies in the world.
  • iwork3jobs 5y ago
    Maybe some could, but you need to be _there_. So you create different kinds of opportunities where you are.
• endisneigh 5y ago
  > Real example: One person I know has 2 $150k jobs for a total of $300k. If they joined as a jr engineer at a FANGMULA or equivalent, they would be making $300k, not be fucking stressed about the duplicity that is working 2 jobs, learn more because it's a better company and get promoed to sr engineer within a year or two and make $400-500k instead. If they have ambition, they can cross the leadership rubicon (either through becoming a staff engineer or manager) and make even more, reaching up to $700k-$1M eventually. Sometimes I wonder if the people saying this stuff really even work there. It's not impossible, but the kind of person who would be promoted that fast wouldn't be working two crappy jobs to begin with. Not to mention even if you were promoted you wouldn't go from $300K to $500K. You think getting promoted at FAANG gives you an over 50% increase in total comp as the norm? (edit: If you've seen this, it's almost due to the fact that FAANG stock increased drastically during COVID. If you look at 2012-2017 data for promotions a 50% increase is almost unheard of). You should join one if you're not already there and read about how people are complaining about less than 6.7% (last inflation report) raises during company meetings and less than 10% even when promoted. Finally, background checks work on what you give them, they're not exhaustive (unless you're trying to work for the government). So many inaccuracies in this post I wonder if it's satire. If so, I apologize. lol
  • aqme28 5y ago
    Agreed. I was a software engineer in New York, not SF (where salaries a _little_ higher), but salaries were nothing like this unless maybe you worked at a top-end hedge fund. The myth that every other random software engineer has this kind of pay is harmful.
    • chii 5y ago
      I think the OP is adding equity compensation, which with the current bull market, is hugely inflating that number. If you only count take home pay in cash, it's nowhere near $500k! Closer to 200k for a senior engineer imho. Vesting of shares takes a few years, so the extra $200k that you "get" is because 2 years ago, you were paid $150k in equity, and it grew to $200k (or more).
• Aeolun 5y ago
  > They think that promos (like this article), are at most only %10, while promos are more like a x1.5 to x2 of your income. This is not true in most of the world I believe.
• GnomeSaiyan 5y ago
  Nobody is making $300k as a junior engineer. And certainly not getting promoted to senior engineer within a year on top of that. Stop talking out of your ass.
  • dnautics 5y ago
    Well I do know someone who pulls that as a junior but he also has a PhD in inverse kinematics simulation and that job was really needed.
    • smorgusofborg 5y ago
      That's like pointing out the secretary of defense is a rich secretary.. He didn't get the job for his typing skills.
    • delaaxe 5y ago
      Great I also know Elon
    • comeonseriously 5y ago
      > Nobody is making $300k as a junior engineer. And certainly not getting promoted to senior engineer within a year on top of that. Stop talking out of your ass. >>Well I do know someone who pulls that as a junior but he also has a PhD in inverse kinematics simulation and that job was really needed. This is the problem with using words like nobody, always, etc. Someone will usually (see what I did there?) come along with one single piece of anecdata and think the original statement is invalid.
      • stavros 5y ago
        This ~always happens.
      • dnautics 5y ago
        you're taking me too seriously. I'm sardonically pointing out that the parameters for the original statement to be possible exist, but they are at least two standard deviations over the median reader of HN, even, thereby supporting the sentiment of the parent post (if not the letter of the parent post), not undermining it.
• olingern 5y ago
  > and this will show up in future background checks. I’m not interested in working two jobs, but can you provide some sort of reference around this? My last two background checks included no employment info and I was fairly certain private sector jobs have no reporting outside the IRS, hence ridiculous interviews.
  • throwaway75787 5y ago
    They might be referring to The Work Number from Equifax, which you can check out of, but never leave.
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    I don't think "no reporting" connects in any way to "ridiculous interviews." It is perfectly possible to do a reference call to a company, at which one's name, rank, serial number, and dates of tenure would be verified. That would be as much or more than you'd get from most background checks.
• WanderPanda 5y ago
  haha in Germany the 150k alone would be three jobs
  • llampx 5y ago
    Before taxes? After taxes more like six.
• Arainach 5y ago
  >They think that promos (like this article), are at most only %10, while promos are more like a x1.5 to x2 of your income. I'd be curious to see stats on this. My experience at large corporations (multiple of FAANG) has been the opposite. For instance, at Google my L4-5 salary bump was 10-15%, my bonus target percentage is identical, and to be honest the stock grants from L4 Strongly Exceeds were better than L5 Consistently Meets Expectations. There's theoretically a higher ceiling over the long term (and the L6 bump seems to be better) but it was nowhere near 50% for me.
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Yep, and if you negotiate hard and come in near the top of your salary band, they will use that against you at raise time so you only get like 3% or something. Granted, that may be equivalent to just taking your first year raise up front before you start, which is better than waiting a year for it, but that's what happens.
  • UncleMeat 5y ago
    If you were promoted to 5 then you had high ratings within 4. You should compare CME at each level.
• MattGaiser 5y ago
  > Maybe if your having a hard time breaking into startups or FANGMULA and your just starting out, this might be an ok strategy, but beyond that, it's not a good idea. Most people are never good enough to break into FANGMULA.
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    And, of the ones who are good enough, some get unlucky and never overcome the "interview random number generator" and always get stuck in the "interview anti-loop." [0] You would think there would be less luck involved in a process that really wants to select the best available employees, but it is not so. --- [0]: http://recursion.org/2012/1/10/interviewing-anti-loop http://recursion.org/2012/1/10/interviewing-anti-loop
  • tjpnz 5y ago
    It's not about being good enough. More often than not it's about having the time to grind LeetCode for months on end. Understandably not everyone can or wants to do this.
    • MattGaiser 5y ago
      This too. I know a guy who spent 4 months full time and several algo bootcamps prepping for a Facebook interview. Didn't get in. Total cost to him was about 30K between courses and foregone income.
• tekromancr 5y ago
  Are you high, sir?
• TrackerFF 5y ago
  The vast majority of applicants can not get into those prestigious companies, and to be frank - if you can get two remote CRUD jobs that pay a total of $300k - that's probably 3-5 times higher pay than the average "normal" physical job in their area. I get that this is HN and a very SF-centric board, but sometimes users here are so incredibly out of touch with the real world, it's not even funny anymore. I'm not attacking you directly, but it's something you see here all the time ("why not just join google and become a principal engineer")
  • KennyBlanken 5y ago
    I burst out laughing when they said that you get a 50% pay bump with a promotion.
  • exdsq 5y ago
    Maybe the average skill of an HN developer is Jeff Dean, and in a few years when they all graduate the world will be a great place :)
• masterof0 5y ago
  >3. They think that promos (like this article), are at most only %10, while promos are more like a x1.5 to x2 of your income. This is false on average, even at FAANG, getting promoted to the next level doesn't boost your TC that much, the company assumes that the promotion on itself is good enough prize. You usually get a better deal applying to the next level at another FAANG. > 1. They tend to work double jobs at frankly lo..... This is also false, plenty of people that work for small companies, even being a 10X , "rockstar" , ... developer, would never get "promoted" to the next level, because , there is no next level, and the C-level positions are reserved for friends and family, and in some occasion to outside experienced executives. 30 years ago, climbing the corporate ladder was "the way" to get ahead, nowadays, people with small mildly successful SAAS businesses, consultant companies, podcasters, indie hackers etc... make way more than any Director at FAANG. This is a very "boomer" take in general, and is also pretty cringe.
  • hello_moto 5y ago
    > 30 years ago, climbing the corporate ladder was "the way" to get ahead, nowadays, people with small mildly successful SAAS businesses, consultant companies, podcasters, indie hackers etc... make way more than any Director at FAANG. Dir at FAANG makes $1-2M with probably less stress that comes from running-your-own-business. How many podcasters at the level of $1-2M that works less than Dir at FAANG? I rarely seen IndieHackers at that level (a select few who struck gold, not as "common" as Dir at FAANG).
    • masterof0 5y ago
      Not true either, Directors at FAANG have wayyyy more pressure than people who have bootstrapped their own business. Obviously depends on your business, but on average, running your own business gives you more flexibily than working for someone else. Once your at the Director level, the company owns your time, the pressure to deliver is way higher, because you can always spin another SaaS, but is very hard to get another Director position at another company once you get fired from one. Also, your kids/family can inherit your business, but not your job.
• advael 5y ago
  I'm currently wondering if I should try to double-dip and this nonsensically-out-of-touch attempt to dissuade people from that behavior with its ridiculously unrealistic numbers has actually convinced me that it might be worth pursuing more than the original article linked
• PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  I have anecdotes from the hiring side. I've only seen the two-jobs phenomenon a couple times in my career, but it always involved someone getting a new job and then simply not quitting their last remote job. They eventually realize they can collect two paychecks until their old job catches on and lays them off. However, it's not that difficult to spot if you're paying attention. Two job workers tend to: 1. Have elaborate excuses for why they can't update their LinkedIn profile to show the new job. Obviously they can't tip the old company off that they have a new job. 2. Have mysteriously complicated and ever-changing schedule conflicts throughout the day. We support (and encourage) flexible work, but when someone is disappearing throughout the day and can't reliably jump on a phone call (despite supposedly being online and active) without ample notice, they're probably doing something else. 3. Are extreme people-pleasers in superficial ways (want to keep up appearances) but only actually deliver good work when it's high profile and they know they're in the spotlight. 4. Are loathed by their teammates after a while, because everyone they work with slowly catches on that the person is absent-mindedly doing the bare minimum to not get fired. Inevitably, the teammates have to pick up the slack and do extra work to compensate. Few people are better positioned to recognize this than the people who are in the trenches with the person all day. 5. Have a different jobs on their resume with start and end dates that don't match what you confirm with the company. That's because they need to massage the start/end dates to appear as though they weren't overlapping the two jobs. 6. Are religious about "If I get my work done, why does it matter when I work?" Sounds great, but then they play every game in the book to shrink "their work" to be as small as possible and move the "done" part as far in the future as possible. End result is that team mates suffer (see #4).
  • bobwaycott 5y ago
    > 1. Have elaborate excuses for why they can't update their LinkedIn profile to show the new job. Obviously they can't tip the old company off that they have a new job. Why is this being stated as if a person is required to update LinkedIn with their current employer? What employer is pressuring new hires for an explanation on why they haven’t publicly claimed their new relationship status? I don’t often update LI, but your phrasing of someone having “elaborate excuses” means there’s pressure from an employer (or coworkers?) for an LI update before anyone could even receive such “elaborate excuses” … and that’s just plain weird.
• giantg2 5y ago
  "the company is not teaching them good skills." Do companies actually teach anyone, ever? "If they joined as a jr engineer at a FANGMULA or equivalent, they would be making $300k," This assumes they could spend the time to pass the interview and then deal with the performance expectations. Losers like me could probably work two $80k jobs if they are simple enough. But I'll never get into FAANG, nor would they pay me $300k for a remote role. "They think that promos (like this article), are at most only %10, while promos are more like a x1.5 to x2 of your income." Where the hell do you work!? My company gives a 7% raise with a promotion. I want one of these $300k jobs with a 2x promotion. Even the $150k job would be a 50% raise for me. I have been looking for a while and see almost nothing over $120k.
• shard972 5y ago
• edmcnulty101 5y ago
  All 7 million tech workers should work at a FAANG and make 300K.
  • actually_a_dog 5y ago
    Oh, shit, I knew I was doing something wrong.
• iwork3jobs 5y ago
  The FANGMULA salaries that you mentioned I could not dream of reaching. I have 3 gigs and cash in maybe 70k, and that is very good for my location. I could, I suspect, if I applied myself, land a FANG job, but I would _have_ to relocate. And the COL increase alone would probably make it not worth it. A FANG level remote job would not happen and the stupid niche I work in is not as highly paid as FANG.
• iwork3jobs 5y ago
  High tier are not accessible everywhere. I do this, work 3 jobs in paralel and it is very lucrative for my location. I do not see a path I could make as much doing what I do, without relocating. Only way I could beat it is going the SAAS way or doing my own startup. Being a local early employee would not cut it. My employers have so far been very happy with my work, although I am aware I could have performed much better and have done very stupid mistakes because I was moving too fast.
• pdimitar 5y ago
  > 1. They tend to work double jobs at frankly lower tier companies with lower standards and significantly lower pay. Because the companies are lower tier, they stagnate in their career growth because the company is not teaching them good skills. And you cannot put both jobs in your resume, only one on top of that, and this will show up in future background checks. That's bull, man, sorry. Most of the devs out there, I'd wager at least 95%, don't go through background checks ever, as a start. Second, I work as a dev for 20 years now and I have never known anyone who got promoted by more than 20%. I have only known one guy through another guy who got promoted with 35% once and that was actually a strategy to make him accept more responsibility. He burned out and quit in less than 6 months after. Anecdotal evidence, sure, but then again, what you cite seems statistically insignificant to me so I don't know if I even believe it because I've not seen it and I haven't even heard of it. Thirdly, "lower tier companies", really? Sure, use that connotation if you like it -- but I've been all over the spectrum and different combinations of work/life balance vs. income are literally endless. There are companies paying top dollar but there's always some gotcha, and more often than not that gotcha is not worth the extra money. I'll concede here that I have been unlucky -- or not that skilled to begin with, why not, I don't claim I am the greatest -- but it's what I've (not) seen. 2. Because of double working, they are pretty much guaranteed to not get promoted beyond the standard terminal level. Working your arse off in one primary job is seldom if ever rewarded well. I love your positive bubble but you seriously have to think about for how many people out there it applies to. 3. They think that promos (like this article), are at most only %10, while promos are more like a x1.5 to x2 of your income. Nope, doesn't happen almost ever. Maybe in startups but let's be honest -- will you be in this startup 5 years from now? Also you can't eternally job-hop to more and more money. 4. You cannot work at proper startups and learn a ton, because the workload would be way too high for this strategy. At least that's true, I'll give you that. --- I realize that I've been at shitty employers most of my career (took me a while to get a good baseline data from other people and understand my position) but still, most devs out there are at shitty employers. What you're talking about no more than 5% of the total programming workforce, I'd wager it's more like 0.5% even.
• karmakaze 5y ago
  OT: first time reading FANGMULA. Top hit: "FANGMULA" is a dumb acronym that a cringey YouTuber made up because he couldn't get into FAANG, so he had to make up a new acronym that would include the company he did get into. Comment on the note: FANGMULA is from blind FANGULTAD is from youtube I still don't know who ULTD are. I usually just say FAAMG to mean all the like.
• pxue 5y ago
  Jr at 300k? Someone's lying to yah. Maybe total comp including RSU and 401k matching and you based in HCOL like San Fran.