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US labor board official orders Amazon to redo union vote at Alabama warehouse

289 points by haunter 5y ago

newfonewhodis 5y ago
Remember when Amazon stole delivery workers' tips? https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-theft-allegations-ftc-fine-drivers-gig-tips https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-...
fennecfoxen 5y ago
The elections will continue until the Party wins. Then, they will end.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  ...or atleast they will continue until independent observers view them as fairly conducted.
- echelon 5y ago
  Kind of like Amazon forcing a redo of the JEDI government cloud computing contract that they lost. Or Blue Origin trying to force a redo of the NASA lunar lander contract.
  - koheripbal 5y ago
    Yes, exactly. These are all examples of organizations acting in bad faith - including the union here in this case. Such things should not be allowed.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      The order here is from the NLRB, which is an independent agency of the US Government, not the union. You can grumble as much as you'd like about their order, but it's not clear where the "bad faith" on the NLRB's part is.
    - mikestew 5y ago
      I know the HN guidelines recommend against asking about one's reading of the article, but how about the headline at the top of the page? Can we at least expect that much to have been read? Hell, I'm in the reply box, and I can still see at the top: "US labor board official orders...", with no mention of union action at all. I don't think it's the union making the bad faith argument here.
      - seneca 5y ago
        The NLRB order is in response to requests from the union.
        woodruffw 5y ago
        Requests that, under federal law, the union is perfectly entitled to make. The NLRB is neither an arm of nor subservient to the union; it's discharging its responsibilities as required by law.
        DrewRWx 5y ago
        The point is that it is not acting in bad faith to take a grievance to a government agency and have it rule in their favor.
        seneca 5y ago
        Sure, not saying it is. I was just disagreeing with the assertion that there was no union action involved.
        mikestew 5y ago
        The assertion was, and I quote myself, "with no mention of union action at all". (referring to the headline, and emphasis mine) Of course, at some point in the process there was "union action"; kinda thought that would go with saying, but...
        jjk166 5y ago
- DrewRWx 5y ago
  Please stop with the re-heated McCarthyism. It isn't helping the discussion.
lelandfe 5y ago
This time Amazon will be sure not to engage in intimidation. That you can prove.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Amazon is certain to engage in the kinds of intimidation that they're legally allowed to perform: anti-union agitprop and vague gesticulation about economic uncertainty. But hopefully the threat of continued elections will make them a little more hesitant when it comes to cheeky things like "the ballot box will be in a room controlled by Amazon, with Amazon-monitored cameras pointing at you as you arrive[1]." But only time will tell. [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/amazon-prevented-free-and-fair-election-in-alabama-union-alleges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/amazon-prevented-free-and-fa...
  - sjg007 5y ago
    Amazon would be able to actually infer the votes from this type of scheme.
  - vadfa 5y ago
    Both sides engage in the same information war.
    - jjar 5y ago
      Only one side is worth literal billions, and has no qualms about spending those billions to win.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Of course they do, it's a labor dispute. What's the point of this comment, other than a vague "both sides, therefore bad" statement?
  - TheCoelacanth 5y ago
    If the only punishment for getting caught is a do over, they are 100% guaranteed to continue preventing a fair election.
marricks 5y ago
It's interesting how a lot of this hinges on a mailbox which was placed under Amazon's direction and unclear to employees if Amazon could also read the ballots from it. No doubt that is shady and weird. I really wish more would/could be done about how Amazon mandated employees watch hours of propaganda and meeting with countless managers about how unions are bad. Almost everyone claims advertisements don't work on them and that if they were bombarded with messaging they wouldn't be affected, but hey advertisement isn't a billion dollar industry for nothing, and similarly I'm sure trillion dollar companies can pay for the best knowledge on union busting.
- sjg007 5y ago
  John Oliver has a good episode on union busting on his HBO show "Last Week Tonight".
  - brightball 5y ago
    I used to think well of those John Oliver pieces until he did one about a subject I knew deeply. Now I assume everything he does is a one sided hit piece that leaves out important details that completely change the picture.
    - orangejewce 5y ago
      The one on the energy grid was wrong on many levels, and didn't understand fundamentally the relationship between renewables generation and transmission.
      - sjg007 5y ago
        What is was specifically wrong? Can you clarify?
    - sjg007 5y ago
      What subject do you know deeply and what is your specific criticism of his piece?
    - 5y ago
mjfl 5y ago
Aren’t unions why the USA has no auto industry?
- michael1999 5y ago
  Unions didn't waste 20 years designing fins on big-block engines that broke down on the regular.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  No auto industry? Who is producing the ~10M cars a year, then? https://www.statista.com/statistics/198518/us-motor-vehicle-production-since-1999/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/198518/us-motor-vehicle-...
  - oh_sigh 5y ago
    For comparison with other countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_veh... Literally only China makes more cars that the US. US beats Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Germany...
    - kwhitefoot 5y ago
      It's a pity that chart doesn't also show per capita production. Japan, South Korea, and Germany make more per capita than both the US and China. Even Canada does.
      - mikeyouse 5y ago
        Per capita seems mostly irrelevant? And of course the auto workers in Canada, Germany, South Korea and Japan are all unionized...
        kwhitefoot 5y ago
        If you are going to compare countries with a billion inhabitants, like China, with ones that have 340 million, like the US, and with those that have only 50 million, say South Korea, you surely need to normalise the figures. Otherwise it's not really an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps population ratio isn't the right choice, any suggestions for another?
pfortuny 5y ago
Honest question (am from Europe). Why are not unions (labor) part of the right to free association in the US? Or is it that they must comprise the whole labor force? EDIT: Wow: thanks a lot. Unbelievably complicated to me…
- fundad 5y ago
  Unions lost popular support among the American public when it became illegal for them to discriminate by race. That environment has been great for pro-business interests to push laws that weaken union power in many states.
  - pfortuny 5y ago
    Oh, really? This is certainly terrible. Man, what a mess. Thanks.
    - fundad 5y ago
      Many institutions the US was known for has suffered the same fate in the last fifty-something years. "Make America Great Again" refers to how beloved our institutions were. They see Civil Rights as our nation's weakness, holding us back from greatness.
      - zdragnar 5y ago
        > "Make America Great Again" That is just patently wrong. It was a reaction to the previous administration's foreign policy strategy, which was to position America as less of a world leader and more of a partner. Conservatives frequently criticized one of President Obama's early trips as an "apology tour", and were incensed when he appeared to bow to the Saudi king. Also, they disliked the domestic policies which had a socialized feel. It literally had nothing to do with the civil rights movement.
        nfd 5y ago
        > It was a reaction to the previous administration's foreign policy strategy, which was to position America as less of a world leader and more of a partner. Happen to know of any direct discussion of this being the intent behind that slogan from the Trump administration? Especially from Trump himself?
shkkmo 5y ago
Duplicate with a different source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29391641 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29391641
seibelj 5y ago
Continually redoing votes erodes trust in the voting process. How can anyone buy the left's haranguing of Trump's lies about voter fraud when they so forcefully say Stacy Abrams had her vote stolen? When you claim fraud you destroy more trust in the whole system.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  The NLRB is not related to the FEC or any other entities responsible for managing federal elections in the United States. Apart from both managing (completely different types of) elections, it's not clear why the NLRB's order to redo a union vote would or wouldn't erode trust in the general electoral process in the US.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Can any company randomly decide they want the USPS to install an official mailbox where ever the company wants one?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Yes, you don't need to be nearly Amazon's size. USPS mail drop box locations are the responsibility of the local postmaster. It's basically a matter of asking politely and there being enough mail to somewhat justify it. It's not uncommon for large commercial real estate developments (like a new strip mall or an office park) to arrange to have one installed when the facility opens.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  They can ask, and if they have a good reason, the USPS should comply. Seems pretty straight forward.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tyingq 5y ago
Only 16% voted for it the first time. Even if I consider Amazon meddling, I'm guessing there won't be enough support for it this time either. Probably just people weighing the dues versus what a union could potentially do for them. It's hard to convince someone making $15/hour that their $500/year will pan out. I personally think it would, but selling that idea is another thing.
- cmh89 5y ago
  It's not hard if you've ever been in a union. I'm in a union and while wages are important, its the peace of mind knowing my boss can't fire because she's having a bad day or force me to work unpaid overtime that I really value.
  - adamsb6 5y ago
    In the US overtime pay is already guaranteed by law, unless you're salaried.
    - karmajunkie 5y ago
      Right, but as with many things guaranteed by law, enforcing the law is another matter.
    - cmh89 5y ago
      Unfortunately the US has comically weak enforcement of labor laws. I've experienced and heard many examples of this from over the years including managers asking employees to clock-out and finish their work. While that is illegal, the State is completely ineffective in protecting workers who file complaints. Amazon itself is currently being sued for failing to provide required breaks. They are infamous for making it hard to even go to the bathroom. That would never fly at my shop. Of course, that's just one example. I also love that management can't just shift more and more responsibility onto me to save money or arbitrarily increase the complexity of my work without an increase in pay.
      - 5y ago
boomboomsubban 5y ago
Wow. Posting antiunion posters throughout the workplace, holding mandatory weekly antiunion meetings, and having your boss come to the floor and talk about unions is already pretty scummy before the new vote was even certain. And those posters are just absurd. "Your dues will pay for a six figure salary for the union president" rings hollow when your labor led to Bezos' net worth.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  100k is close to middle class for someone with a family at this point. Homer Simpson makes six figures, Mr. Burns mortgage is six figures. Something like quarter million would've landed better I suspect. This is the sort of thing people in stuffy boardrooms come up with as opposed to a advertising team, lacking polish.
  - hpoe 5y ago
    That may be true in SV or something like that, but I am guessing in Alabama, for someone making $15-$20 an hour six figures seems like quite a bit. Heck I'd consider myself upper middle class and I make low six figures.
    - ma2rten 5y ago
      Even in SV someone working at an Amazon warehouse is not making more than that.
    - acdha 5y ago
      According to https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/AL https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/AL, the median income is $50k so it's good but hardly lavish and https://statisticalatlas.com/place/Alabama/Mobile/Household-Income https://statisticalatlas.com/place/Alabama/Mobile/Household-... has the 80th percentile just under $100k whereas 95th percentile is $154k. I think it's easy to forget just how uneven things have become since the middle of the previous century: someone making more money than 95 out of every 100 Alabama residents is doing quite well compared to most of the people in the state and is still nowhere near CEO-level compensation.
granzymes 5y ago
.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  The presumable use is in having the NLRB officially state that it considers the previous election to be irregular.
  - granzymes 5y ago
    .
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      The media coverage is certainly a benefit! But I don't know if it's the "real" one: the NLRB seemingly agrees that Amazon's manipulation efforts had a real effect on the previous vote. Even if the vote fails again, a change in the percentages is an important outcome.
      - granzymes 5y ago
        .
        woodruffw 5y ago
        I agree that it isn't an especially big punishment. But I don't think it's intended to be one: the NLRB is charged with issuing a decision regarding the validity of the previous election, not determining the viability of any future election. In other words, if it's a mistake to perform the election again, it's the union's mistake to make. But I, for one, think it's a sound strategy on their part.
Ansil849 5y ago
> The decision pointed to moves by the company encouraging staff to vote via a mailbox it had the Postal Service install at its warehouse, surrounding the mailbox with its campaign slogan and locating it where workers may have thought Amazon was surveilling them. I do not understand this, and also don't understand why this is just glossed over in a single sentence in this article and not unpacked more. Generic cynicism aside, since when can a private company just "have the Postal Service" install a mailbox on its property? This makes it sound like the USPS is at corporate beck and call. This makes it sound like a company can call up the postal service, say 'setup an official mailbox on our private property', and the post office responds with 'sure, we'll be right over'.
- iudqnolq 5y ago
  This is amazon. They also had the red light on the public road you turn off to enter the warehouse shortened so that Union advocates would have less time to speak to workers stuck in traffic.
  - Ansil849 5y ago
    Source?
    - iudqnolq 5y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/17/22287191/amazon-alabama-warehouse-union-traffic-light-change-bessemer https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/17/22287191/amazon-alabama-w...
      - Ansil849 5y ago
        This just says: > More Perfect Union confirmed with Jefferson County officials that last year, Amazon notified the county of traffic delays during shift changes and asked for the light to be changed. And then the unsubstantiated speculation is that this was done as a form of union busting, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence presented (like internal meeting notes, emails, any kind of evidence, really) that this was actually the case.
xibalba 5y ago
Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. How is it that HN'ers look at entities like the UAW or various state teachers' unions and think, "Yeah, let me get some of that."? Is there an example of increased union-ization of a U.S. company leading to better outcomes for customers?
- scotu 5y ago
  the point of the union is better outcomes for the workers, not for the customers
  - busterarm 5y ago
    collective bargaining certainly isn't better than compensation and terms that I have been able to negotiate.
    - scotu 5y ago
      what a boring argument. Also wrong. I would put a lot of money on "you didn't a/b test collective bargaining with your own negotiation" because it's simply impossible, so you don't really know if that's true. Also most workers are not in a job with a candidate shortage (and candidate shortages don't last forever, better have a union while you have the power to make it happen then when you become a throwaway widget for your company)
      - busterarm 5y ago
        I've negotiated salaries that are 2 or 3 times what my peers have made in the same position. I've also negotiated in non-standard vacation packages, like a fixed 2 months off every year. That simply doesn't happen in collective bargaining. I've hardly ever been a throwaway widget in any job and even when I was working shitty jobs I was the type to get promoted quickly. The only places this never happened were my 3 union jobs. And in each case I was forced to work for the union -- I wasn't seeking it.
        5y ago
TOGoS 5y ago
Indeed, Amazon very clearly used their weight to unfairly influence the vote. But unionizing that warehouse would be an uphill battle in any case due to the high turnover rate (150% per year according to first google result). Why bother with a union and risk marring the facade of friendliness with management when you'll be gone in a few months anyway? Getting this to work will probably require a broader effort involving not just current employees, but getting the entire workforce in Bessamir inoculated against Amazon's anti-union propaganda. I hope RWDSU leadership understands this.
jrochkind1 5y ago
> In Monday's decision, the NLRB regional director said that Amazon "engaged in objectionable conduct that warrants setting aside the election." Is there a public written NLRB decision? The OP didn't link to it or mention the specifics. Not a great article. Or is there another way to see the specifics on what the NLRB considered to be the "objectionable conduct that warrants setting aside the election"? It would be good to have the specifics of what the NLRB actually decided was this before diving into arguing about it, wouldn't it?
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  https://www.nlrb.gov/case/10-RC-269250 https://www.nlrb.gov/case/10-RC-269250 The specifics have been mentioned before, this article was light on them but they were already known.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    Thanks! Lots of facts have been mentioned before, but which ones did the NLRB decide justified an election redo, is the question. From the 11/29 Supplemental Decision (which I guessed was the relevant one just cause it was 11/29), it looks like: 1. Mainly, the mailbox in the parking lot. a bunch of different issues with it's existence and treatment that violated various rules. ("OBJECTIONS 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, AND 17 – THE MAILBOX OBJECTIONS") 2. Employer "present[ing] small groups of employees with the open and observable choice to pick up or not pick up “Vote No” paraphernalia in front of Employer agents," ("OBJECTION 11 – “VOTE NO” PARAPHERNALIA POLLING"). That's it. Just these. The details are of course in the fairly readable document, including the specifics (very specifics) on why these things were problematic.
voidfunc 5y ago
Keep re-voting until you get the results you want lol.
brightball 5y ago
I’m not sure that people in other parts of the country realize how much anti union sentiment there is in the southeast. One of the biggest things that attracts businesses to setup shop in the south is low cost of living and lower salary requirements as a result. The same things that cause businesses to setup shop overseas. When unions get involved with promises of higher wages, it disincentivizes the business from growing in that area because it has effectively no benefit over the higher cost areas. I’ve witnessed this first hand in South Carolina ever since Boeing opened a location here. The union tactics have been crazy. Everybody down here is thrilled to have Boeing and all of the peripheral benefits to the area that come with them. Great jobs, supply chain effects, etc. Then union officials show up when it’s time for a new vote and start telling people how bad everything is. Around every vote there are always crazy news articles and sensationalized events that try to drum up union support and paint Boeing in a bad light. And then it stops until it’s time for a new vote. Down here, people want businesses. They want jobs. The want corporate customers to sell services to. They want economic development and they want practices to incentivize that. What people don’t want are practices that will slow that down, especially when the non-union work pays better than most everything else in the area already. It gives the appearance to everyone, somewhat obviously, that the union is only interested is strengthening itself.
- nkrisc 5y ago
  It’s not surprising that those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization are not in support of it.
  - seneca 5y ago
    > It’s not surprising that those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization are not in support of it. Right. But what people are missing is that "those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization" is most people who actually live in the region. The jobs are there because the unions aren't, and people want jobs.
    - iterati 5y ago
      I don't think people want jobs. I think people NEED jobs because they need to eat and a roof over their head. That's not really a good justification for fleecing your workers and paying them as little as possible - that they'd starve without you.
wly_cdgr 5y ago
On what legal grounds? (The article requires you to register to read the whole thing)
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
Their conduct already changed the vote. How does a re-vote change their minds?
slownews45 5y ago
A bit of background. Biden moved Robb (former GC) out, is going for the more explicit pro-union approach in NLRB. Obama did same thing in being explicitly pro-union. Basically the GC's then took pretty aggressive positions " Solomon pushed a case against Boeing in 2011 for trying to open a factory in right-to-work South Carolina. He argued this was retaliation against unionized workers in Washington state even though none had been laid off. He demanded Boeing abandon a $2 billion investment and move all production to Washington state." Here's the letter from the Former GC - who was forcefully removed - so the agency is a bit less independent from the administration than one would think from the act itself. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aboutblaw.com_VaB&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=kLMxVm2Pe3-vqnwax6USXHuUJikBU_JKdLMsYWVYGu4&m=zMrmuov2XRbt1-_L6ek3zMmg-AVpmkxqmBK399hgZPI&s=PufObqHG9Zo6_LiRfdiP86kHMWHfLSPrRPmp8KqvWbM&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aboutbl... What is interesting is that even Trump allowed the (dem) GC to serve out their term, so this Biden approach is a bit new. I mention just because a lot of posts are mention the NLRB is a "neutral" govt agency. Biden has promised that it will be the most "pro-union" ever, and has taken steps to make that happen.
fallingfrog 5y ago
I heard an interview with Jane McAlevey (a well regarded union organizer) who stated that the way the campaign was run was all wrong, and doomed to fail. You're supposed to get virtually everyone in the shop on board before any sort of official count, because once it's an official count the management is going to do all sorts of underhanded things to win. It's expected that they are not going to play fair, so generally you shouldn't be trying to increase your votes once the vote is on, you just want to hold on to enough of the votes you've already got to win. If you hold the vote before you're ready, then you start out way behind. The management will usually brazenly cheat or threaten to close the factory or fire the organizers on false pretenses etc. The labor board will slap them on the wrist and invalidate the vote, then you do it again, but you can't win at that point. They don't have to play so dirty the second time around. The damage is done. It's too late.

289 points by haunter 5y ago

Remember when Amazon stole delivery workers' tips? https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-theft-allegations-ftc-fine-drivers-gig-tips https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/2/22262294/amazon-flex-wage-...

fennecfoxen 5y ago

The elections will continue until the Party wins. Then, they will end.

shkkmo 5y ago
...or atleast they will continue until independent observers view them as fairly conducted.
echelon 5y ago
Kind of like Amazon forcing a redo of the JEDI government cloud computing contract that they lost. Or Blue Origin trying to force a redo of the NASA lunar lander contract.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  Yes, exactly. These are all examples of organizations acting in bad faith - including the union here in this case. Such things should not be allowed.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    The order here is from the NLRB, which is an independent agency of the US Government, not the union. You can grumble as much as you'd like about their order, but it's not clear where the "bad faith" on the NLRB's part is.
  - mikestew 5y ago
    I know the HN guidelines recommend against asking about one's reading of the article, but how about the headline at the top of the page? Can we at least expect that much to have been read? Hell, I'm in the reply box, and I can still see at the top: "US labor board official orders...", with no mention of union action at all. I don't think it's the union making the bad faith argument here.
    - seneca 5y ago
      The NLRB order is in response to requests from the union.
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        Requests that, under federal law, the union is perfectly entitled to make. The NLRB is neither an arm of nor subservient to the union; it's discharging its responsibilities as required by law.
      - DrewRWx 5y ago
        The point is that it is not acting in bad faith to take a grievance to a government agency and have it rule in their favor.
        seneca 5y ago
        Sure, not saying it is. I was just disagreeing with the assertion that there was no union action involved.
        mikestew 5y ago
        The assertion was, and I quote myself, "with no mention of union action at all". (referring to the headline, and emphasis mine) Of course, at some point in the process there was "union action"; kinda thought that would go with saying, but...
        jjk166 5y ago
DrewRWx 5y ago
Please stop with the re-heated McCarthyism. It isn't helping the discussion.

lelandfe 5y ago

This time Amazon will be sure not to engage in intimidation. That you can prove.

woodruffw 5y ago
Amazon is certain to engage in the kinds of intimidation that they're legally allowed to perform: anti-union agitprop and vague gesticulation about economic uncertainty. But hopefully the threat of continued elections will make them a little more hesitant when it comes to cheeky things like "the ballot box will be in a room controlled by Amazon, with Amazon-monitored cameras pointing at you as you arrive[1]." But only time will tell. [1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/amazon-prevented-free-and-fair-election-in-alabama-union-alleges.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/19/amazon-prevented-free-and-fa...
- sjg007 5y ago
  Amazon would be able to actually infer the votes from this type of scheme.
- vadfa 5y ago
  Both sides engage in the same information war.
  - jjar 5y ago
    Only one side is worth literal billions, and has no qualms about spending those billions to win.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Of course they do, it's a labor dispute. What's the point of this comment, other than a vague "both sides, therefore bad" statement?
- TheCoelacanth 5y ago
  If the only punishment for getting caught is a do over, they are 100% guaranteed to continue preventing a fair election.

marricks 5y ago

It's interesting how a lot of this hinges on a mailbox which was placed under Amazon's direction and unclear to employees if Amazon could also read the ballots from it. No doubt that is shady and weird. I really wish more would/could be done about how Amazon mandated employees watch hours of propaganda and meeting with countless managers about how unions are bad. Almost everyone claims advertisements don't work on them and that if they were bombarded with messaging they wouldn't be affected, but hey advertisement isn't a billion dollar industry for nothing, and similarly I'm sure trillion dollar companies can pay for the best knowledge on union busting.

sjg007 5y ago
John Oliver has a good episode on union busting on his HBO show "Last Week Tonight".
- brightball 5y ago
  I used to think well of those John Oliver pieces until he did one about a subject I knew deeply. Now I assume everything he does is a one sided hit piece that leaves out important details that completely change the picture.
  - orangejewce 5y ago
    The one on the energy grid was wrong on many levels, and didn't understand fundamentally the relationship between renewables generation and transmission.
    - sjg007 5y ago
      What is was specifically wrong? Can you clarify?
  - sjg007 5y ago
    What subject do you know deeply and what is your specific criticism of his piece?
  - 5y ago

mjfl 5y ago

Aren’t unions why the USA has no auto industry?

michael1999 5y ago
Unions didn't waste 20 years designing fins on big-block engines that broke down on the regular.
rootusrootus 5y ago
No auto industry? Who is producing the ~10M cars a year, then? https://www.statista.com/statistics/198518/us-motor-vehicle-production-since-1999/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/198518/us-motor-vehicle-...
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  For comparison with other countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_vehicle_production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_motor_veh... Literally only China makes more cars that the US. US beats Japan, South Korea, Mexico, Germany...
  - kwhitefoot 5y ago
    It's a pity that chart doesn't also show per capita production. Japan, South Korea, and Germany make more per capita than both the US and China. Even Canada does.
    - mikeyouse 5y ago
      Per capita seems mostly irrelevant? And of course the auto workers in Canada, Germany, South Korea and Japan are all unionized...
      - kwhitefoot 5y ago
        If you are going to compare countries with a billion inhabitants, like China, with ones that have 340 million, like the US, and with those that have only 50 million, say South Korea, you surely need to normalise the figures. Otherwise it's not really an apples to apples comparison. Perhaps population ratio isn't the right choice, any suggestions for another?

pfortuny 5y ago

Honest question (am from Europe). Why are not unions (labor) part of the right to free association in the US? Or is it that they must comprise the whole labor force? EDIT: Wow: thanks a lot. Unbelievably complicated to me…

fundad 5y ago
Unions lost popular support among the American public when it became illegal for them to discriminate by race. That environment has been great for pro-business interests to push laws that weaken union power in many states.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  Oh, really? This is certainly terrible. Man, what a mess. Thanks.
  - fundad 5y ago
    Many institutions the US was known for has suffered the same fate in the last fifty-something years. "Make America Great Again" refers to how beloved our institutions were. They see Civil Rights as our nation's weakness, holding us back from greatness.
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      > "Make America Great Again" That is just patently wrong. It was a reaction to the previous administration's foreign policy strategy, which was to position America as less of a world leader and more of a partner. Conservatives frequently criticized one of President Obama's early trips as an "apology tour", and were incensed when he appeared to bow to the Saudi king. Also, they disliked the domestic policies which had a socialized feel. It literally had nothing to do with the civil rights movement.
      - nfd 5y ago
        > It was a reaction to the previous administration's foreign policy strategy, which was to position America as less of a world leader and more of a partner. Happen to know of any direct discussion of this being the intent behind that slogan from the Trump administration? Especially from Trump himself?

shkkmo 5y ago

Duplicate with a different source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29391641 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29391641

seibelj 5y ago

Continually redoing votes erodes trust in the voting process. How can anyone buy the left's haranguing of Trump's lies about voter fraud when they so forcefully say Stacy Abrams had her vote stolen? When you claim fraud you destroy more trust in the whole system.

woodruffw 5y ago
The NLRB is not related to the FEC or any other entities responsible for managing federal elections in the United States. Apart from both managing (completely different types of) elections, it's not clear why the NLRB's order to redo a union vote would or wouldn't erode trust in the general electoral process in the US.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Can any company randomly decide they want the USPS to install an official mailbox where ever the company wants one?

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
Yes, you don't need to be nearly Amazon's size. USPS mail drop box locations are the responsibility of the local postmaster. It's basically a matter of asking politely and there being enough mail to somewhat justify it. It's not uncommon for large commercial real estate developments (like a new strip mall or an office park) to arrange to have one installed when the facility opens.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
They can ask, and if they have a good reason, the USPS should comply. Seems pretty straight forward.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tyingq 5y ago

Only 16% voted for it the first time. Even if I consider Amazon meddling, I'm guessing there won't be enough support for it this time either. Probably just people weighing the dues versus what a union could potentially do for them. It's hard to convince someone making $15/hour that their $500/year will pan out. I personally think it would, but selling that idea is another thing.

cmh89 5y ago
It's not hard if you've ever been in a union. I'm in a union and while wages are important, its the peace of mind knowing my boss can't fire because she's having a bad day or force me to work unpaid overtime that I really value.
- adamsb6 5y ago
  In the US overtime pay is already guaranteed by law, unless you're salaried.
  - karmajunkie 5y ago
    Right, but as with many things guaranteed by law, enforcing the law is another matter.
  - cmh89 5y ago
    Unfortunately the US has comically weak enforcement of labor laws. I've experienced and heard many examples of this from over the years including managers asking employees to clock-out and finish their work. While that is illegal, the State is completely ineffective in protecting workers who file complaints. Amazon itself is currently being sued for failing to provide required breaks. They are infamous for making it hard to even go to the bathroom. That would never fly at my shop. Of course, that's just one example. I also love that management can't just shift more and more responsibility onto me to save money or arbitrarily increase the complexity of my work without an increase in pay.
    - 5y ago

boomboomsubban 5y ago

Wow. Posting antiunion posters throughout the workplace, holding mandatory weekly antiunion meetings, and having your boss come to the floor and talk about unions is already pretty scummy before the new vote was even certain. And those posters are just absurd. "Your dues will pay for a six figure salary for the union president" rings hollow when your labor led to Bezos' net worth.

willcipriano 5y ago
100k is close to middle class for someone with a family at this point. Homer Simpson makes six figures, Mr. Burns mortgage is six figures. Something like quarter million would've landed better I suspect. This is the sort of thing people in stuffy boardrooms come up with as opposed to a advertising team, lacking polish.
- hpoe 5y ago
  That may be true in SV or something like that, but I am guessing in Alabama, for someone making $15-$20 an hour six figures seems like quite a bit. Heck I'd consider myself upper middle class and I make low six figures.
  - ma2rten 5y ago
    Even in SV someone working at an Amazon warehouse is not making more than that.
  - acdha 5y ago
    According to https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/AL https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/AL, the median income is $50k so it's good but hardly lavish and https://statisticalatlas.com/place/Alabama/Mobile/Household-Income https://statisticalatlas.com/place/Alabama/Mobile/Household-... has the 80th percentile just under $100k whereas 95th percentile is $154k. I think it's easy to forget just how uneven things have become since the middle of the previous century: someone making more money than 95 out of every 100 Alabama residents is doing quite well compared to most of the people in the state and is still nowhere near CEO-level compensation.

granzymes 5y ago

woodruffw 5y ago
The presumable use is in having the NLRB officially state that it considers the previous election to be irregular.
- granzymes 5y ago
  .
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    The media coverage is certainly a benefit! But I don't know if it's the "real" one: the NLRB seemingly agrees that Amazon's manipulation efforts had a real effect on the previous vote. Even if the vote fails again, a change in the percentages is an important outcome.
    - granzymes 5y ago
      .
      - woodruffw 5y ago
        I agree that it isn't an especially big punishment. But I don't think it's intended to be one: the NLRB is charged with issuing a decision regarding the validity of the previous election, not determining the viability of any future election. In other words, if it's a mistake to perform the election again, it's the union's mistake to make. But I, for one, think it's a sound strategy on their part.

Ansil849 5y ago

> The decision pointed to moves by the company encouraging staff to vote via a mailbox it had the Postal Service install at its warehouse, surrounding the mailbox with its campaign slogan and locating it where workers may have thought Amazon was surveilling them. I do not understand this, and also don't understand why this is just glossed over in a single sentence in this article and not unpacked more. Generic cynicism aside, since when can a private company just "have the Postal Service" install a mailbox on its property? This makes it sound like the USPS is at corporate beck and call. This makes it sound like a company can call up the postal service, say 'setup an official mailbox on our private property', and the post office responds with 'sure, we'll be right over'.

iudqnolq 5y ago
This is amazon. They also had the red light on the public road you turn off to enter the warehouse shortened so that Union advocates would have less time to speak to workers stuck in traffic.
- Ansil849 5y ago
  Source?
  - iudqnolq 5y ago
    https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/17/22287191/amazon-alabama-warehouse-union-traffic-light-change-bessemer https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/17/22287191/amazon-alabama-w...
    - Ansil849 5y ago
      This just says: > More Perfect Union confirmed with Jefferson County officials that last year, Amazon notified the county of traffic delays during shift changes and asked for the light to be changed. And then the unsubstantiated speculation is that this was done as a form of union busting, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence presented (like internal meeting notes, emails, any kind of evidence, really) that this was actually the case.

xibalba 5y ago

Lots of "Amazon Bad, Union Good" sentiment in these comments. How is it that HN'ers look at entities like the UAW or various state teachers' unions and think, "Yeah, let me get some of that."? Is there an example of increased union-ization of a U.S. company leading to better outcomes for customers?

scotu 5y ago
the point of the union is better outcomes for the workers, not for the customers
- busterarm 5y ago
  collective bargaining certainly isn't better than compensation and terms that I have been able to negotiate.
  - scotu 5y ago
    what a boring argument. Also wrong. I would put a lot of money on "you didn't a/b test collective bargaining with your own negotiation" because it's simply impossible, so you don't really know if that's true. Also most workers are not in a job with a candidate shortage (and candidate shortages don't last forever, better have a union while you have the power to make it happen then when you become a throwaway widget for your company)
    - busterarm 5y ago
      I've negotiated salaries that are 2 or 3 times what my peers have made in the same position. I've also negotiated in non-standard vacation packages, like a fixed 2 months off every year. That simply doesn't happen in collective bargaining. I've hardly ever been a throwaway widget in any job and even when I was working shitty jobs I was the type to get promoted quickly. The only places this never happened were my 3 union jobs. And in each case I was forced to work for the union -- I wasn't seeking it.
      - 5y ago

TOGoS 5y ago

Indeed, Amazon very clearly used their weight to unfairly influence the vote. But unionizing that warehouse would be an uphill battle in any case due to the high turnover rate (150% per year according to first google result). Why bother with a union and risk marring the facade of friendliness with management when you'll be gone in a few months anyway? Getting this to work will probably require a broader effort involving not just current employees, but getting the entire workforce in Bessamir inoculated against Amazon's anti-union propaganda. I hope RWDSU leadership understands this.

jrochkind1 5y ago

> In Monday's decision, the NLRB regional director said that Amazon "engaged in objectionable conduct that warrants setting aside the election." Is there a public written NLRB decision? The OP didn't link to it or mention the specifics. Not a great article. Or is there another way to see the specifics on what the NLRB considered to be the "objectionable conduct that warrants setting aside the election"? It would be good to have the specifics of what the NLRB actually decided was this before diving into arguing about it, wouldn't it?

boomboomsubban 5y ago
https://www.nlrb.gov/case/10-RC-269250 https://www.nlrb.gov/case/10-RC-269250 The specifics have been mentioned before, this article was light on them but they were already known.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Thanks! Lots of facts have been mentioned before, but which ones did the NLRB decide justified an election redo, is the question. From the 11/29 Supplemental Decision (which I guessed was the relevant one just cause it was 11/29), it looks like: 1. Mainly, the mailbox in the parking lot. a bunch of different issues with it's existence and treatment that violated various rules. ("OBJECTIONS 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, AND 17 – THE MAILBOX OBJECTIONS") 2. Employer "present[ing] small groups of employees with the open and observable choice to pick up or not pick up “Vote No” paraphernalia in front of Employer agents," ("OBJECTION 11 – “VOTE NO” PARAPHERNALIA POLLING"). That's it. Just these. The details are of course in the fairly readable document, including the specifics (very specifics) on why these things were problematic.

voidfunc 5y ago

Keep re-voting until you get the results you want lol.

brightball 5y ago

I’m not sure that people in other parts of the country realize how much anti union sentiment there is in the southeast. One of the biggest things that attracts businesses to setup shop in the south is low cost of living and lower salary requirements as a result. The same things that cause businesses to setup shop overseas. When unions get involved with promises of higher wages, it disincentivizes the business from growing in that area because it has effectively no benefit over the higher cost areas. I’ve witnessed this first hand in South Carolina ever since Boeing opened a location here. The union tactics have been crazy. Everybody down here is thrilled to have Boeing and all of the peripheral benefits to the area that come with them. Great jobs, supply chain effects, etc. Then union officials show up when it’s time for a new vote and start telling people how bad everything is. Around every vote there are always crazy news articles and sensationalized events that try to drum up union support and paint Boeing in a bad light. And then it stops until it’s time for a new vote. Down here, people want businesses. They want jobs. The want corporate customers to sell services to. They want economic development and they want practices to incentivize that. What people don’t want are practices that will slow that down, especially when the non-union work pays better than most everything else in the area already. It gives the appearance to everyone, somewhat obviously, that the union is only interested is strengthening itself.

nkrisc 5y ago
It’s not surprising that those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization are not in support of it.
- seneca 5y ago
  > It’s not surprising that those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization are not in support of it. Right. But what people are missing is that "those who directly benefit from the lack of unionization" is most people who actually live in the region. The jobs are there because the unions aren't, and people want jobs.
  - iterati 5y ago
    I don't think people want jobs. I think people NEED jobs because they need to eat and a roof over their head. That's not really a good justification for fleecing your workers and paying them as little as possible - that they'd starve without you.

wly_cdgr 5y ago

On what legal grounds? (The article requires you to register to read the whole thing)

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

Their conduct already changed the vote. How does a re-vote change their minds?

slownews45 5y ago

A bit of background. Biden moved Robb (former GC) out, is going for the more explicit pro-union approach in NLRB. Obama did same thing in being explicitly pro-union. Basically the GC's then took pretty aggressive positions " Solomon pushed a case against Boeing in 2011 for trying to open a factory in right-to-work South Carolina. He argued this was retaliation against unionized workers in Washington state even though none had been laid off. He demanded Boeing abandon a $2 billion investment and move all production to Washington state." Here's the letter from the Former GC - who was forcefully removed - so the agency is a bit less independent from the administration than one would think from the act itself. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aboutblaw.com_VaB&d=DwMGaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=kLMxVm2Pe3-vqnwax6USXHuUJikBU_JKdLMsYWVYGu4&m=zMrmuov2XRbt1-_L6ek3zMmg-AVpmkxqmBK399hgZPI&s=PufObqHG9Zo6_LiRfdiP86kHMWHfLSPrRPmp8KqvWbM&e= https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__aboutbl... What is interesting is that even Trump allowed the (dem) GC to serve out their term, so this Biden approach is a bit new. I mention just because a lot of posts are mention the NLRB is a "neutral" govt agency. Biden has promised that it will be the most "pro-union" ever, and has taken steps to make that happen.

fallingfrog 5y ago

I heard an interview with Jane McAlevey (a well regarded union organizer) who stated that the way the campaign was run was all wrong, and doomed to fail. You're supposed to get virtually everyone in the shop on board before any sort of official count, because once it's an official count the management is going to do all sorts of underhanded things to win. It's expected that they are not going to play fair, so generally you shouldn't be trying to increase your votes once the vote is on, you just want to hold on to enough of the votes you've already got to win. If you hold the vote before you're ready, then you start out way behind. The management will usually brazenly cheat or threaten to close the factory or fire the organizers on false pretenses etc. The labor board will slap them on the wrist and invalidate the vote, then you do it again, but you can't win at that point. They don't have to play so dirty the second time around. The damage is done. It's too late.