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BMW removing touchscreen from a bunch of models due to chip shortage

190 points by edward 5y ago

flatiron 5y ago
I have a 2015 Ford Explorer with CarPlay. Does CarPlay just stink or is it fords bad implementation? Siri only works sometimes. The radio.com (or audacy or whatever it’s named now) only works 20% of the time. Waze constantly has rendering problems. It’s a giant mess. But much better than sync3 which honestly may be worse than nothing.
- krrrh 5y ago
  That sounds like a Ford implementation. My cheap aftermarket CarPlay deck works pretty much flawlessly in a 2004 Explorer.
GhostVII 5y ago
I hate touch screens in cars, but this isn't a win for fans of physical controls, despite what a bunch of other commenters seem to think - they aren't adding any new physical buttons, just disabling the touch screen and only allowing you to use the dial.
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  BMW has always had the dial as the primary input on iDrive, the touchscreen is an afterthought. Even before the supply chain shock there were models that had near identical iDrive interfaces with a mix of touchscreen/no-touchscreen based on model year and LCI updates
- marmshallow 5y ago
  This comment should be higher. The ui may be even more difficult/dangerous to use if you need to use the dial instead of tapping. Like another commenter said, very curious to see safety studies on car uis.
YetAnotherNick 5y ago
I thought replacing touchscreen chips were easier as they likely ran some mobile ARM chip for which there seems to be no shortage. My understanding was replacing other chips were harder as they are specialised for serving one purpose and needs safety and other considerations.
mrfusion 5y ago
I don’t like touchscreens but what’s really cool is being able to search my owners manual on the screen. Such a minor feature but it’s surprisingly useful.
Der_Einzige 5y ago
All the people in this thread here who hate touch screens don't know what the alternative looks like. I have a 2017 Lexus RX which doesn't have a touch screen, and it fucking SUCKS! Straight up had to get an after market android auto/carplay upgrade or else I would have sold this car given how frustrating the "joystick" is for controlling the infotainment.
fnord77 5y ago
gotta say, touch screens suck while driving over bumpy roads. BMW idrive is a pretty decent interface, better than almost all the other dial-based ones
- mh- 5y ago
  I really expected to hate the dial-based interface in my (non-touch) BMW but I actually grew to quite like it.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    Putting a touchpad on top of the dial for OCR is kinda ingenius and works rather nicely.
    - jen20 5y ago
      Wait, that does OCR?! I only realized the other day that you can pinch to zoom on it…
      - mh- 5y ago
        yup! When you're in the address entry screen where you spin the wheel to spell out something, try drawing letters with your finger. A Wacom-style depiction of what you drew will appear on the screen. Lift your finger to do the next letter. I've had varied success with it. Usually faster to spin the wheel.
carom 5y ago
I would happily trade in the touch screen on my Jeep for some nice physical controls. It displays a safety dialog every time the car starts and controls (volume!) are disabled while that dialog is up. Similarly, it switches inputs constantly, so the radio plays if my phone is not connected. Just give me a knob to select input because I always want it on Bluetooth.
- itronitron 5y ago
  I rented a car recently with a touch screen that would display that safety dialog and also not allow a destination to be entered into the sat nav without first placing the vehicle in park. Considering that this model of vehicle is often marketed to families it seems odd that they wouldn't consider the possibility that a passenger could enter the destination without distracting the driver. If touchscreens are that big of a liability (and I believe that they are since the touchscreen doesn't provide any tactile affordance for the driver to distinguish controls) then they shouldn't be in the car in the first place.
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Yeah, the touchscreen is great for the navigator. It needs to be placed where the driver cannot even see it: the driver shouldn't even be able to help the navigator as just looking at the screen takes the drivers off the road for too long.. If you are driving solo I'm fine with a while in park mode that you can see a touch screen, but I can't think of a good way to implement it.
    - drdaeman 5y ago
      Head-Up Displays solve this by projecting the essential information on the windshield. So you don't have to move your eyes away from the road at all - and even when you're looking at the HUD data, you still have a view of the road, unlike those displays on the central column where the best you have is some peripheral vision. Paired with a voice assistant, it could work nicely for the navigation. You say "navigate to $address", and HUD would show you the essential information for your next turn (rough distance, street or exit name, turn lanes).
frereubu 5y ago
I haven't had a touchscreen in a car, and while I'm excited with the idea of having a fully electric car, I have to say that the thing I dread the most is touchscreens. Are touchscreens in cars mostly things like music and satnav, or are they also used for things like A/C, direction of air flow etc?
- ISL 5y ago
  We recently got a loaner car from our local Subaru -- lots of controls were touchscreen only, including climate and radio controls. Needing to take your eyes off the road to interact with safety-critical controls (defroster, for example) is a step backward.
  - poulsbohemian 5y ago
    I’m curious what model, as I have a new Subaru Ascent and have been very pleased with the mix of touchscreen and physical knobs - and I’m a guy who was super skeptical about the touchscreen.
    - ISL 5y ago
      A recent-model Outback, probably a 2021? This is what it looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akCh_LyGOt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akCh_LyGOt0 There are more knobs than I remembered, but the overwhelming sense was that the touchscreen made difficult things possible, but the simplest things more-difficult. Many of the climate settings are in software. The seat-heaters as a software switch are a big step backward from the 2013 Outback's dedicated buttons, too.
      - poulsbohemian 5y ago
        Oh! Thanks for the video - wow, that is significantly different from the Ascent! On mine the heating / cooling options are all physical controls as are the buttons for switching between media modes. Yes once you are into things like CarPlay it's all touch screen, but even then there are control buttons from the steering wheel for next track / previous track, volume, invoke siri, etc.
thrower123 5y ago
It should be illegal to put a touchscreen in a car that the driver is intended to use.
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Or at least that the driver has to use (wipers, heating/defrost/defog)
  - bluGill 5y ago
    No, the driver shouldn't be able to use it at all. You have to take your eyes off the road to use it, and drivers never allow enough space to do that safely. When driving there should be nothing that the driver can see that isn't required to drive. Not even a radio station frequency indication, just hit scan or up/down until you find something you like (if you are loyal to a station program a preset while in park)
albertopv 5y ago
Good! I really prefer physical controls!
- ryanlol 5y ago
  All of the affected models have physical buttons, literally nothing changed.
AlexanderDhoore 5y ago
Touchscreen in a BMW is already optional to use. You have the control joystick, which you use when driving. Touchscreen is for the passenger next to the driver, or when standing still. I personally never use it and prefer the joystick for all interactions. Touch is just useless when the car is moving, my eyes are on the road and my hand can't find the buttons. EDIT Talking about this thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKmxrvDupCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKmxrvDupCI
GDC7 5y ago
Central wheel control FTW. BMW pioneered it in 2006
- BoorishBears 5y ago
  I love the scrolling steering wheel control, it's wonderfully tactile and easy to operate while you're driving. That combined with the HUD makes going to other cars painful when it comes to basic input stuff
- jen20 5y ago
  Even earlier, I believe. I test drove a 7 series from 2003 that had the wheel (in the UK).
jagger27 5y ago
Mazda has been doing the reasonable thing in this area for a while*. Recent models don't have touch screens and require you to use the (funnily enough, BMW i-Drive style) control knob for radio and CarPlay. Even their most recent model, the CX-50, has a full array of manual knobs and controls.[1] * With the sad exception of their first EV, the MX-30, which puts climate controls on a touch screen[2]. The upper display is still controlled by the knob, though. Weird choice. 1: https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/driving/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2023-Mazda-CX-50-24.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=564&type=webp https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/driving/wp-content/u... 2: https://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2021-mx-30/1600x1200/wallpaper_89.htm https://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2021-mx-30/1600x1200/wallpa...
wly_cdgr 5y ago
tfw supply shortages force design improvements
- dawnerd 5y ago
  But it isn’t an improvement since nothing else changes. They’re just charging the same (or higher let’s be real after dealer markups) for fewer features.
  - wly_cdgr 5y ago
    "fewer features" is often an improvement by itself, tho - i think that's the case here
buserror 5y ago
A LOT of features have disappeared on BMWs in the last few months. I looked into trading in my X5 (2019) for a X5 45e (plug in hybrid) but it was missing quite a few bits that came as standard before. Like, fog lights. Or the heated/cooled cup holders, wifi hotspot and several other features. Strangely (ahem) the prices haven't gone down!
- Hamuko 5y ago
  Front fog lights are utterly useless anyways. Many cars don't even come with them now.
  - buserror 5y ago
    Actually I use them a lot, on single track roads in the UK, they provide a MUCH better coverage around the front/side of the car -- I don't know how many critter I managed to dodge because I saw their eyes in the hedges.
    - Hamuko 5y ago
      Is it actually that foggy there that regularly?
      - bestnameever 5y ago
        That depends, what do you define as regularly?
      - wizzwizz4 5y ago
        In parts of the country, definitely. For days on end, sometimes. And it doesn't really matter how regularly. If you are driving in those conditions… you only have to crash once.
        Hamuko 5y ago
        But fog lights don't really prevent you from crashing. They do not output that much light and unlike your headlights and highbeams, they are not directed, but just scatter light in front of you. In the UK, it's not legal to have the fog lights on unless your visibility is less than 100 metres in front of you. That's basically the same range as your dipped lights have, and less than five seconds worth of visbility if you're doing 80 km/h. If your visibility is reduced so much, your best bet against crashing isn't just to scatter some light near the bottom of your front bumper, but to engage the rear fog lights and drop your speed significantly.
eddieroger 5y ago
I have a 2017 Honda Civic, which was one of the few models with a touch-based volume control (as opposed to the physical knob). It is a pain to adjust the volume, since it is hard to know if I’m tapping and what direction it interprets the tab, or sliding, and if the velocity of the slide matters for how much the volume changes. It’s nice to be able to touch on the CarPlay interface, but I would trade it for a predictable knob, and I think Honda knows this is a good move since they added the physical knob back the following model year. I guess that’s just another vote for physical controls in the car.
hettygreen 5y ago
I knew this thread would be filled will people that dislike touchscreens. I hate them too and and when we bought our first car, we looked at a used Subaru at the last model-year that kept physical controls. I'm a synthesizer designer, so I'm a bit biased towards knobs. My dad just bought a new Toyota Civic and I've watched him be completely frustrated and overwhelmed by the touch screen. I've also had to use it a few times while driving it and noticed that my eyes needed to be off the road for way longer than I'm comfortable with (just to turn the volume down!). Is there ever going to be a movement towards these car companies going back to physical controls for this stuff? Or are we pretty much heading towards a steeringwheel-less wrap around touchscreen dashboard that plays advertisements for nearby businesses. I'm legitimately curious about the safety of these things, and has any studies been done? It's just strange to have car companies investing billions in self-driving cars claiming "you're too distracted to operate a car yourself" and then making current models where adjusting the A/C requires drilling down thru menus.
- youeseh 5y ago
  I think Mazda makes cars that have a screen whose controls are physical.
  - fishywang 5y ago
    Yes. I had a last gen (2014 Mazda 3) and traded it in for a current gen (2021 Mazda 3) earlier this year. On last gen models they do have touch screen, but the touch part is auto disabled when the speed is above a low threshold (5 or 10 mph). In the current gen they just removed touch part completely. With the last gen I only barely used the touch function in the pre-Android-Auto days, to help put the address to its builtin navigation system faster. Later they provided the optional upgrade of Android Auto (for $500) and I don't think I ever used the touch feature after the upgrade. In the current gen Android Auto is standard configuration and I never missed touching. Besides the removal of touching, they also have some other small but useful improvements on the screen on the current gen that I really appreciate: 1. They made the screen wider in the current gen, so with Android Auto you can have 2 apps displaying at the same time, usually maps and music, with one horizontal and one vertical. 2. They made the screen slightly slanted towards the driver in the current gen. Another thing I think most people don't realize is that the design around non-touch screen could mean that the screen can be placed to a better position. When the screen is touchable, it has to be within arms reach, which usually means it has to been lower, and the driver has to look down when they need some info from the screen. The current gen Mazda move it upper, so the driver only need to roll their eyes slightly to see it.
erenw 5y ago
Bought my bmw x3 m40i 2020 last year, and I honestly have not touchscreen once. I have always been using the swivel wheel..
monkeydust 5y ago
I feel BMW missed an opportunity here to market this as an advantage rather than disadvantage...play on 'we listened to customer feedback'...and the safety angle. I think that would have played better for their sales, at least that's my hunch.
ed_balls 5y ago
I don't mind a touch screen, but let me program the buttons on the steering wheel e.g. there should be a fn button. When I press it and arrows I can change the temperature. I'd have pretty much all important functions available without taking my hands far away from the steering wheel as well as my eyes off the road. I wish they would stop making capacitive buttons though. (VW, Audi and Mercedes - I'm looking at you)
chiefalchemist 5y ago
I don't like touchscreens - sans the backup cam - cause I have glance at the screen (as opposed to a physical touch) to do anything. In addition, I don't use the car GPS, I use my device, etc. I think there was a time when screens were a novelty and they helped sway buyers. But now that that thrill is gone, they feel like an inappropriate UX. p.s. I like the backup cam but can certainly live without. I have for 30+ yrs so what's the big deal.
rektide 5y ago
One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss is phone interfaces. BMW/Jaguar were one company invested in the old Webinos IoT efforts that I personally thought were super super on point, which was a nice standards based system, that respected personal data. I kind of imagine anyone in the car having a touchscreen interface if they want it: just pull out your phone. We don't expect a good parity interface, but projects like Webinos or, heck, the Jeep QNX-OS hack, show great things are possible. The Jeep hack, fwiw looked amazing: a beautiful fantastic DBus interface for all the cars systems. I remain in love with the idea of hacking one's own car & building the fantastic interface the car maker are unable to build (and which would admittedly likely not suit all users; sad that software has so massified, must serve so so many, even though the consumers interest/abilities are not alike). Another X factor I want to throw out there: personally I really like to have the cabin dimmed way down at night. I don't end up in a lot of cars, but in my limited experience, I've never seen a touchscreen that comes anywhere close to being able to dim down adequately. So one of the first things I do in a car typically is figure out how to turn the display off. Even though I have a lot of touchscreen disastisfaction.
throwaway4good 5y ago
Exactly what component is missing here? The display is still there, as is the SOC running the OS that does UI. Is a shortage touch-enabled displays or display drivers? Is a part of the issue that these companies can do redesigns quickly enough, so they cannot change to other components that does the same thing only in a slightly different manner?
- steve_adams_86 5y ago
  Maybe it’s high risk to do mass production with untested components rather than revert to tried and tested components
janitor61 5y ago
The problem I have with touch screens in cars is lining up your finger so that it presses the right area of the screen, which is difficult when driving (and dangerous). Why can't they integrate some sort of capacitive proximity sensor matrix in the LCD that will display a crosshair cursor as your finger gets near the screen? This would help immensely with lining up the press and allow me to use the thing quickly like analog controls.
mud_dauber 5y ago
My Silverado touchscreen has been problematic for a year now. Nothing like getting a voice command to “state your content type” while navigating rush hour traffic.
Daniel_sk 5y ago
I had the newest X3 with iDrive and I think I never actually touched the display itself - the "wheel" was perfect, much faster and safer. There was literally no need to touch the screen.
- _zoltan_ 5y ago
  exactly. I think most of the people bashing here are missing this point. I always use the wheel in my BMW.
ryanlol 5y ago
Yet another thread full of confused people who have never sat in a modern BMW. The driver has buttons for everything, the touchscreen is mostly for the passenger. There are no buttons added and removed between the touchscreen and not-touchscreen version.
- maxdo 5y ago
  I doubt touch screen BMW provide can be called modern :) Feels like the brand stuck in time. Especially knob to control a touch screen... All they did for the last 30-40 years was selling extra horse power. Luckily right now EV dramatically changed the price you can get a far better performance for far better price. That will finally force them to change.
  - ryanlol 5y ago
    > All they did for the last 30-40 years was selling extra horse power. This was not my impression at all while cross-shopping the S-class, A8 and 7er. They’re all on fairly equal footing, I went with the 7 because it was put together significantly better than the Audi and had better tech than the S-class. Now the brand new S-class might have shifted that balance a bit by adding rear wheel steering, but I’m not too sure about the touch screen monstrosity.
cronix 5y ago
Whatever touchscreen you provide, my phone will be better, smoother, have a more polished UI and easily upgradable to stay current. Navigation apps are infinitely better than what you get stuck with, and I can navigate by voice using state of the art tech that keeps getting better with updates. Just give me a decent phone holder (upgradable) and bluetooth, and make that bluetooth a module that can be swapped out as newer bluetooth versions become available like swapping out an old ISA card on a PC. Same with usb. You buy a 10 year old car and get stuck with ancient USB ports with very low charging rates that don't really interface with modern equipment. All this "modern" crap dates the car before the actual utility of the car (a thing to get you places) does. I am thankful for the physical audio volume knob on the dashboard. I literally don't even use the touchscreen (except to change the clock 2x a year), as I have a lovely 12" tablet that does everything I want with a large beautiful display that is easy to read, blocking it. That's on a 2019 model.
- ec109685 5y ago
  Always use a cigarette adapter for faster charging. There isn’t anything inherently preventing touch screens from being upgradable (software is already possible today).
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    I'd rather a car with usable USB ports than using antiquated cigarette adapters.
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      But only as long as they get the USB power spec right. Because, if not, the cigarette lighter with an adapter is going to be more useful.
      - brokenmachine 5y ago
        True.
- 5y ago
tomekw 5y ago
Can’t touch this!
maxdo 5y ago
This touch screen hate reminds me of iphone vs nokia hysteria. Touch screen in the car is far more superior, has more usability pros and in the long term will make cars cheaper. Since it radically eliminates car design complexity. Usability: main trend, your car doesn't need so many overwhelming controls like in the past : 1. Tachometer, oil, temperature etc.. all go away due to electric cars. all you need to monitor regularly is speed. Even that partially replaces with speed sound notifications when you're above limit since cars are smart enough to read signs. Even something like windshield wipers is controlled automatically, far better and frequent reaction to the outdoor conditions. And it's just getting and better and smarter with time. 2. Phone-less experience: You don't need a phone mounted in your car somewhere if your car has a decent screen for navigation, internet and multi media. No wires, no annoying manual operations to mount/connect the phone every-time you sit in the car. No constant distraction, better security. 3. Drive controls: EV is far better at controlling traction, any kind of manual control has no meaning unless you want a "ride a horse" experience. Hence that, you mostly need steering wheel-mounted or even without it e.g. new model S. Floor-mounted is an anachronism and has nothing to do with usability since there is no logical reason to keep it on the floor. The only explanation, i'm old and I'm used to having it this way. 4. Air conditioner and climate control: touch screen is by far more superior as it gives you control from one place. You don't need to change settings from several places manually pushing something to get comfortable. Just count number of frictions you do , you change temp, you change flow in one place in the center, by the left door, right door... And that's every time you need to change settings. In most of the cases, you switch profiles, and you're good. It also works when you're switching the car. It knows what corner to blow the air, how strong, and what temperature you prefer in the previous car you drove recently. If you need the other passenger preferences or you're in the car just by yourself. If the car is heating, blow one way, if it's cooling do it other way... 5. Back up cameras: Any big screen gives you amazing observability, with several cameras. Simple rule of thumb the bigger the better. 6. Multimedia, full screen with movies, games, decent albums covers, in-car karaoke while on the trip... I guess this one is the clearest win. 7. Navigation: Yep, do you want to see a map on tiny phone or low-quality monitor or you want to observe your trip on a giant screen? No brainer unless you are biased. 8. Customization. Yeah, people are different. Manual controls don't let you do so. 9. Updates. Yep, manufacture can add extra features. Retrofit upgrades will work better since new/updated hardware can be easily integrated on the screen. 10. Keys, access management, security: You don't have keys, start button. You can leave the message that a car temperature is good and a dog is in good condition. You can programmatically restrict access to the glovebox when you're in valet parking, so no one will steal your documents, etc... it's so easy without manual controls. The summary is : if you drive a sport car, touch screen+EV is better, it will go faster, with better traction etc. if you like outdoor: same as sport, better driving, an overview of complex spots, maps, planning of your trip, notifications etc... companies like Rivian market offering is completely about outdoor, Cybertruck, Ford follows. if you like comfort, sit-and-drive feeling: EV+Touch+Voice screen is the best option. You don't need start buttons, manual keys, manual controls etc... Just approach the car, open the door hit a pedal, and drive. Despite all these pros, the main problem is implementation. Look at Volkswagen. They try to copy the success of competitors, but they've been cheap with hardware and usability, their screens are glitchy. But that's just bad quality. The same was with some first-gen touch phones, that were able to glitch even when someone calls you.
poulsbohemian 5y ago
I recently drove a friend's Mercedes and the hard part wasn't the touchscreen but rather the input device. On the center console there were some physical buttons and levers, and on the steering wheel column there were multiple dials. The problem was that what I thought should have been the gear shifter was instead conceptually a "mouse" for navigating the on screen menu options. Thankfully I only needed to drive the car a few miles, as one friend had already given up on driving the car and asked me to take the wheel instead - she was that frustrated by the controls! Could be that I'd get used to it, but it wasn't a good first experience.
samwillis 5y ago
Ignoring the touchscreen debate. I picked up a new Audi in September, they asked if they could just give me a single key for now. i was given the actual stick part of the second key but not the fob. Obviously shortage in chips for the fobs. I’m sure if I protested they would have found another somewhere (or if I was picking up a top model) but I was happy to help. Will probably get the second fob next year sometime. They also told me they had to make a call to a customer that afternoon who had orders an A3 to a custom spec back in March 2021 to update her on the new delivery date… for March 2022. And that’s just an A3!
ubermonkey 5y ago
I have hated every touchscreen I've seen in every car, including and especially the Tesla, with the sole exception of touch-enabled implementations of CarPlay. It just seems like a bad idea. I have, for my whole driving life (so 35 years) often adjusted car settings by feel, without looking away from the road. Touch screens ruin that.
avelis 5y ago
What I find confusing is why BMW couldn't find another interior feature to remove so cars could ship with a touchscreen. For example, removing the wireless charging for certain models. I feel that having the infotainment screen would be used on every drive vs wireless charging.
- tantalic 5y ago
  The infotainment screen can be used with or without touch. This allows them to remove a chip without loosing functionality. For some of their enthusiast focused models many BMW drivers prefer the non-touch interface. I have had a BMW with a touch screen for 11.5 months now and a finger hasn’t touched the screen yet.
geophile 5y ago
I think a lot of comments here assume that the screen is going away completely. But I think it might be saying that the screen will still be there, controllable with the joystick. But that would still seem to require some silicon, no?
Fartyblaadfast 5y ago
It's only been in the press that the BMW touch screen issue has mainly been on USA bound vehicle. I'm awaiting delivery of a G23 in the UK and have been told by the dealer that the car is in the UK but they are unsure if it has a touch screen chip as BMW haven't advised........so delivery delayed. If it has no chip we've been offered £500.00. I have touch screen on my Mercedes but tend not to use it, the hey mercedes voice app works fine for nav, phone calls, etc

190 points by edward 5y ago

I have a 2015 Ford Explorer with CarPlay. Does CarPlay just stink or is it fords bad implementation? Siri only works sometimes. The radio.com (or audacy or whatever it’s named now) only works 20% of the time. Waze constantly has rendering problems. It’s a giant mess. But much better than sync3 which honestly may be worse than nothing.

krrrh 5y ago
That sounds like a Ford implementation. My cheap aftermarket CarPlay deck works pretty much flawlessly in a 2004 Explorer.

GhostVII 5y ago

I hate touch screens in cars, but this isn't a win for fans of physical controls, despite what a bunch of other commenters seem to think - they aren't adding any new physical buttons, just disabling the touch screen and only allowing you to use the dial.

BoorishBears 5y ago
BMW has always had the dial as the primary input on iDrive, the touchscreen is an afterthought. Even before the supply chain shock there were models that had near identical iDrive interfaces with a mix of touchscreen/no-touchscreen based on model year and LCI updates
marmshallow 5y ago
This comment should be higher. The ui may be even more difficult/dangerous to use if you need to use the dial instead of tapping. Like another commenter said, very curious to see safety studies on car uis.

YetAnotherNick 5y ago

I thought replacing touchscreen chips were easier as they likely ran some mobile ARM chip for which there seems to be no shortage. My understanding was replacing other chips were harder as they are specialised for serving one purpose and needs safety and other considerations.

mrfusion 5y ago

I don’t like touchscreens but what’s really cool is being able to search my owners manual on the screen. Such a minor feature but it’s surprisingly useful.

Der_Einzige 5y ago

All the people in this thread here who hate touch screens don't know what the alternative looks like. I have a 2017 Lexus RX which doesn't have a touch screen, and it fucking SUCKS! Straight up had to get an after market android auto/carplay upgrade or else I would have sold this car given how frustrating the "joystick" is for controlling the infotainment.

fnord77 5y ago

gotta say, touch screens suck while driving over bumpy roads. BMW idrive is a pretty decent interface, better than almost all the other dial-based ones

mh- 5y ago
I really expected to hate the dial-based interface in my (non-touch) BMW but I actually grew to quite like it.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  Putting a touchpad on top of the dial for OCR is kinda ingenius and works rather nicely.
  - jen20 5y ago
    Wait, that does OCR?! I only realized the other day that you can pinch to zoom on it…
    - mh- 5y ago
      yup! When you're in the address entry screen where you spin the wheel to spell out something, try drawing letters with your finger. A Wacom-style depiction of what you drew will appear on the screen. Lift your finger to do the next letter. I've had varied success with it. Usually faster to spin the wheel.

carom 5y ago

I would happily trade in the touch screen on my Jeep for some nice physical controls. It displays a safety dialog every time the car starts and controls (volume!) are disabled while that dialog is up. Similarly, it switches inputs constantly, so the radio plays if my phone is not connected. Just give me a knob to select input because I always want it on Bluetooth.

itronitron 5y ago
I rented a car recently with a touch screen that would display that safety dialog and also not allow a destination to be entered into the sat nav without first placing the vehicle in park. Considering that this model of vehicle is often marketed to families it seems odd that they wouldn't consider the possibility that a passenger could enter the destination without distracting the driver. If touchscreens are that big of a liability (and I believe that they are since the touchscreen doesn't provide any tactile affordance for the driver to distinguish controls) then they shouldn't be in the car in the first place.
- bluGill 5y ago
  Yeah, the touchscreen is great for the navigator. It needs to be placed where the driver cannot even see it: the driver shouldn't even be able to help the navigator as just looking at the screen takes the drivers off the road for too long.. If you are driving solo I'm fine with a while in park mode that you can see a touch screen, but I can't think of a good way to implement it.
  - drdaeman 5y ago
    Head-Up Displays solve this by projecting the essential information on the windshield. So you don't have to move your eyes away from the road at all - and even when you're looking at the HUD data, you still have a view of the road, unlike those displays on the central column where the best you have is some peripheral vision. Paired with a voice assistant, it could work nicely for the navigation. You say "navigate to $address", and HUD would show you the essential information for your next turn (rough distance, street or exit name, turn lanes).

frereubu 5y ago

I haven't had a touchscreen in a car, and while I'm excited with the idea of having a fully electric car, I have to say that the thing I dread the most is touchscreens. Are touchscreens in cars mostly things like music and satnav, or are they also used for things like A/C, direction of air flow etc?

ISL 5y ago
We recently got a loaner car from our local Subaru -- lots of controls were touchscreen only, including climate and radio controls. Needing to take your eyes off the road to interact with safety-critical controls (defroster, for example) is a step backward.
- poulsbohemian 5y ago
  I’m curious what model, as I have a new Subaru Ascent and have been very pleased with the mix of touchscreen and physical knobs - and I’m a guy who was super skeptical about the touchscreen.
  - ISL 5y ago
    A recent-model Outback, probably a 2021? This is what it looked like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akCh_LyGOt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akCh_LyGOt0 There are more knobs than I remembered, but the overwhelming sense was that the touchscreen made difficult things possible, but the simplest things more-difficult. Many of the climate settings are in software. The seat-heaters as a software switch are a big step backward from the 2013 Outback's dedicated buttons, too.
    - poulsbohemian 5y ago
      Oh! Thanks for the video - wow, that is significantly different from the Ascent! On mine the heating / cooling options are all physical controls as are the buttons for switching between media modes. Yes once you are into things like CarPlay it's all touch screen, but even then there are control buttons from the steering wheel for next track / previous track, volume, invoke siri, etc.

thrower123 5y ago

It should be illegal to put a touchscreen in a car that the driver is intended to use.

yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
Or at least that the driver has to use (wipers, heating/defrost/defog)
- bluGill 5y ago
  No, the driver shouldn't be able to use it at all. You have to take your eyes off the road to use it, and drivers never allow enough space to do that safely. When driving there should be nothing that the driver can see that isn't required to drive. Not even a radio station frequency indication, just hit scan or up/down until you find something you like (if you are loyal to a station program a preset while in park)

albertopv 5y ago

Good! I really prefer physical controls!

ryanlol 5y ago
All of the affected models have physical buttons, literally nothing changed.

AlexanderDhoore 5y ago

Touchscreen in a BMW is already optional to use. You have the control joystick, which you use when driving. Touchscreen is for the passenger next to the driver, or when standing still. I personally never use it and prefer the joystick for all interactions. Touch is just useless when the car is moving, my eyes are on the road and my hand can't find the buttons. EDIT Talking about this thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKmxrvDupCI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKmxrvDupCI

GDC7 5y ago

Central wheel control FTW. BMW pioneered it in 2006

BoorishBears 5y ago
I love the scrolling steering wheel control, it's wonderfully tactile and easy to operate while you're driving. That combined with the HUD makes going to other cars painful when it comes to basic input stuff
jen20 5y ago
Even earlier, I believe. I test drove a 7 series from 2003 that had the wheel (in the UK).

jagger27 5y ago

Mazda has been doing the reasonable thing in this area for a while*. Recent models don't have touch screens and require you to use the (funnily enough, BMW i-Drive style) control knob for radio and CarPlay. Even their most recent model, the CX-50, has a full array of manual knobs and controls.[1] * With the sad exception of their first EV, the MX-30, which puts climate controls on a touch screen[2]. The upper display is still controlled by the knob, though. Weird choice. 1: https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/driving/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/2023-Mazda-CX-50-24.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=564&type=webp https://smartcdn.prod.postmedia.digital/driving/wp-content/u... 2: https://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2021-mx-30/1600x1200/wallpaper_89.htm https://www.netcarshow.com/mazda/2021-mx-30/1600x1200/wallpa...

wly_cdgr 5y ago

tfw supply shortages force design improvements

dawnerd 5y ago
But it isn’t an improvement since nothing else changes. They’re just charging the same (or higher let’s be real after dealer markups) for fewer features.
- wly_cdgr 5y ago
  "fewer features" is often an improvement by itself, tho - i think that's the case here

buserror 5y ago

A LOT of features have disappeared on BMWs in the last few months. I looked into trading in my X5 (2019) for a X5 45e (plug in hybrid) but it was missing quite a few bits that came as standard before. Like, fog lights. Or the heated/cooled cup holders, wifi hotspot and several other features. Strangely (ahem) the prices haven't gone down!

Hamuko 5y ago
Front fog lights are utterly useless anyways. Many cars don't even come with them now.
- buserror 5y ago
  Actually I use them a lot, on single track roads in the UK, they provide a MUCH better coverage around the front/side of the car -- I don't know how many critter I managed to dodge because I saw their eyes in the hedges.
  - Hamuko 5y ago
    Is it actually that foggy there that regularly?
    - bestnameever 5y ago
      That depends, what do you define as regularly?
    - wizzwizz4 5y ago
      In parts of the country, definitely. For days on end, sometimes. And it doesn't really matter how regularly. If you are driving in those conditions… you only have to crash once.
      - Hamuko 5y ago
        But fog lights don't really prevent you from crashing. They do not output that much light and unlike your headlights and highbeams, they are not directed, but just scatter light in front of you. In the UK, it's not legal to have the fog lights on unless your visibility is less than 100 metres in front of you. That's basically the same range as your dipped lights have, and less than five seconds worth of visbility if you're doing 80 km/h. If your visibility is reduced so much, your best bet against crashing isn't just to scatter some light near the bottom of your front bumper, but to engage the rear fog lights and drop your speed significantly.

eddieroger 5y ago

I have a 2017 Honda Civic, which was one of the few models with a touch-based volume control (as opposed to the physical knob). It is a pain to adjust the volume, since it is hard to know if I’m tapping and what direction it interprets the tab, or sliding, and if the velocity of the slide matters for how much the volume changes. It’s nice to be able to touch on the CarPlay interface, but I would trade it for a predictable knob, and I think Honda knows this is a good move since they added the physical knob back the following model year. I guess that’s just another vote for physical controls in the car.

hettygreen 5y ago

I knew this thread would be filled will people that dislike touchscreens. I hate them too and and when we bought our first car, we looked at a used Subaru at the last model-year that kept physical controls. I'm a synthesizer designer, so I'm a bit biased towards knobs. My dad just bought a new Toyota Civic and I've watched him be completely frustrated and overwhelmed by the touch screen. I've also had to use it a few times while driving it and noticed that my eyes needed to be off the road for way longer than I'm comfortable with (just to turn the volume down!). Is there ever going to be a movement towards these car companies going back to physical controls for this stuff? Or are we pretty much heading towards a steeringwheel-less wrap around touchscreen dashboard that plays advertisements for nearby businesses. I'm legitimately curious about the safety of these things, and has any studies been done? It's just strange to have car companies investing billions in self-driving cars claiming "you're too distracted to operate a car yourself" and then making current models where adjusting the A/C requires drilling down thru menus.

youeseh 5y ago
I think Mazda makes cars that have a screen whose controls are physical.
- fishywang 5y ago
  Yes. I had a last gen (2014 Mazda 3) and traded it in for a current gen (2021 Mazda 3) earlier this year. On last gen models they do have touch screen, but the touch part is auto disabled when the speed is above a low threshold (5 or 10 mph). In the current gen they just removed touch part completely. With the last gen I only barely used the touch function in the pre-Android-Auto days, to help put the address to its builtin navigation system faster. Later they provided the optional upgrade of Android Auto (for $500) and I don't think I ever used the touch feature after the upgrade. In the current gen Android Auto is standard configuration and I never missed touching. Besides the removal of touching, they also have some other small but useful improvements on the screen on the current gen that I really appreciate: 1. They made the screen wider in the current gen, so with Android Auto you can have 2 apps displaying at the same time, usually maps and music, with one horizontal and one vertical. 2. They made the screen slightly slanted towards the driver in the current gen. Another thing I think most people don't realize is that the design around non-touch screen could mean that the screen can be placed to a better position. When the screen is touchable, it has to be within arms reach, which usually means it has to been lower, and the driver has to look down when they need some info from the screen. The current gen Mazda move it upper, so the driver only need to roll their eyes slightly to see it.

erenw 5y ago

Bought my bmw x3 m40i 2020 last year, and I honestly have not touchscreen once. I have always been using the swivel wheel..

monkeydust 5y ago

I feel BMW missed an opportunity here to market this as an advantage rather than disadvantage...play on 'we listened to customer feedback'...and the safety angle. I think that would have played better for their sales, at least that's my hunch.

ed_balls 5y ago

I don't mind a touch screen, but let me program the buttons on the steering wheel e.g. there should be a fn button. When I press it and arrows I can change the temperature. I'd have pretty much all important functions available without taking my hands far away from the steering wheel as well as my eyes off the road. I wish they would stop making capacitive buttons though. (VW, Audi and Mercedes - I'm looking at you)

chiefalchemist 5y ago

I don't like touchscreens - sans the backup cam - cause I have glance at the screen (as opposed to a physical touch) to do anything. In addition, I don't use the car GPS, I use my device, etc. I think there was a time when screens were a novelty and they helped sway buyers. But now that that thrill is gone, they feel like an inappropriate UX. p.s. I like the backup cam but can certainly live without. I have for 30+ yrs so what's the big deal.

rektide 5y ago

One thing I haven't seen anyone discuss is phone interfaces. BMW/Jaguar were one company invested in the old Webinos IoT efforts that I personally thought were super super on point, which was a nice standards based system, that respected personal data. I kind of imagine anyone in the car having a touchscreen interface if they want it: just pull out your phone. We don't expect a good parity interface, but projects like Webinos or, heck, the Jeep QNX-OS hack, show great things are possible. The Jeep hack, fwiw looked amazing: a beautiful fantastic DBus interface for all the cars systems. I remain in love with the idea of hacking one's own car & building the fantastic interface the car maker are unable to build (and which would admittedly likely not suit all users; sad that software has so massified, must serve so so many, even though the consumers interest/abilities are not alike). Another X factor I want to throw out there: personally I really like to have the cabin dimmed way down at night. I don't end up in a lot of cars, but in my limited experience, I've never seen a touchscreen that comes anywhere close to being able to dim down adequately. So one of the first things I do in a car typically is figure out how to turn the display off. Even though I have a lot of touchscreen disastisfaction.

throwaway4good 5y ago

Exactly what component is missing here? The display is still there, as is the SOC running the OS that does UI. Is a shortage touch-enabled displays or display drivers? Is a part of the issue that these companies can do redesigns quickly enough, so they cannot change to other components that does the same thing only in a slightly different manner?

steve_adams_86 5y ago
Maybe it’s high risk to do mass production with untested components rather than revert to tried and tested components

janitor61 5y ago

The problem I have with touch screens in cars is lining up your finger so that it presses the right area of the screen, which is difficult when driving (and dangerous). Why can't they integrate some sort of capacitive proximity sensor matrix in the LCD that will display a crosshair cursor as your finger gets near the screen? This would help immensely with lining up the press and allow me to use the thing quickly like analog controls.

mud_dauber 5y ago

My Silverado touchscreen has been problematic for a year now. Nothing like getting a voice command to “state your content type” while navigating rush hour traffic.

Daniel_sk 5y ago

I had the newest X3 with iDrive and I think I never actually touched the display itself - the "wheel" was perfect, much faster and safer. There was literally no need to touch the screen.

_zoltan_ 5y ago
exactly. I think most of the people bashing here are missing this point. I always use the wheel in my BMW.

ryanlol 5y ago

Yet another thread full of confused people who have never sat in a modern BMW. The driver has buttons for everything, the touchscreen is mostly for the passenger. There are no buttons added and removed between the touchscreen and not-touchscreen version.

maxdo 5y ago
I doubt touch screen BMW provide can be called modern :) Feels like the brand stuck in time. Especially knob to control a touch screen... All they did for the last 30-40 years was selling extra horse power. Luckily right now EV dramatically changed the price you can get a far better performance for far better price. That will finally force them to change.
- ryanlol 5y ago
  > All they did for the last 30-40 years was selling extra horse power. This was not my impression at all while cross-shopping the S-class, A8 and 7er. They’re all on fairly equal footing, I went with the 7 because it was put together significantly better than the Audi and had better tech than the S-class. Now the brand new S-class might have shifted that balance a bit by adding rear wheel steering, but I’m not too sure about the touch screen monstrosity.

cronix 5y ago

Whatever touchscreen you provide, my phone will be better, smoother, have a more polished UI and easily upgradable to stay current. Navigation apps are infinitely better than what you get stuck with, and I can navigate by voice using state of the art tech that keeps getting better with updates. Just give me a decent phone holder (upgradable) and bluetooth, and make that bluetooth a module that can be swapped out as newer bluetooth versions become available like swapping out an old ISA card on a PC. Same with usb. You buy a 10 year old car and get stuck with ancient USB ports with very low charging rates that don't really interface with modern equipment. All this "modern" crap dates the car before the actual utility of the car (a thing to get you places) does. I am thankful for the physical audio volume knob on the dashboard. I literally don't even use the touchscreen (except to change the clock 2x a year), as I have a lovely 12" tablet that does everything I want with a large beautiful display that is easy to read, blocking it. That's on a 2019 model.

ec109685 5y ago
Always use a cigarette adapter for faster charging. There isn’t anything inherently preventing touch screens from being upgradable (software is already possible today).
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I'd rather a car with usable USB ports than using antiquated cigarette adapters.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    But only as long as they get the USB power spec right. Because, if not, the cigarette lighter with an adapter is going to be more useful.
    - brokenmachine 5y ago
      True.
5y ago

tomekw 5y ago

Can’t touch this!

maxdo 5y ago

This touch screen hate reminds me of iphone vs nokia hysteria. Touch screen in the car is far more superior, has more usability pros and in the long term will make cars cheaper. Since it radically eliminates car design complexity. Usability: main trend, your car doesn't need so many overwhelming controls like in the past : 1. Tachometer, oil, temperature etc.. all go away due to electric cars. all you need to monitor regularly is speed. Even that partially replaces with speed sound notifications when you're above limit since cars are smart enough to read signs. Even something like windshield wipers is controlled automatically, far better and frequent reaction to the outdoor conditions. And it's just getting and better and smarter with time. 2. Phone-less experience: You don't need a phone mounted in your car somewhere if your car has a decent screen for navigation, internet and multi media. No wires, no annoying manual operations to mount/connect the phone every-time you sit in the car. No constant distraction, better security. 3. Drive controls: EV is far better at controlling traction, any kind of manual control has no meaning unless you want a "ride a horse" experience. Hence that, you mostly need steering wheel-mounted or even without it e.g. new model S. Floor-mounted is an anachronism and has nothing to do with usability since there is no logical reason to keep it on the floor. The only explanation, i'm old and I'm used to having it this way. 4. Air conditioner and climate control: touch screen is by far more superior as it gives you control from one place. You don't need to change settings from several places manually pushing something to get comfortable. Just count number of frictions you do , you change temp, you change flow in one place in the center, by the left door, right door... And that's every time you need to change settings. In most of the cases, you switch profiles, and you're good. It also works when you're switching the car. It knows what corner to blow the air, how strong, and what temperature you prefer in the previous car you drove recently. If you need the other passenger preferences or you're in the car just by yourself. If the car is heating, blow one way, if it's cooling do it other way... 5. Back up cameras: Any big screen gives you amazing observability, with several cameras. Simple rule of thumb the bigger the better. 6. Multimedia, full screen with movies, games, decent albums covers, in-car karaoke while on the trip... I guess this one is the clearest win. 7. Navigation: Yep, do you want to see a map on tiny phone or low-quality monitor or you want to observe your trip on a giant screen? No brainer unless you are biased. 8. Customization. Yeah, people are different. Manual controls don't let you do so. 9. Updates. Yep, manufacture can add extra features. Retrofit upgrades will work better since new/updated hardware can be easily integrated on the screen. 10. Keys, access management, security: You don't have keys, start button. You can leave the message that a car temperature is good and a dog is in good condition. You can programmatically restrict access to the glovebox when you're in valet parking, so no one will steal your documents, etc... it's so easy without manual controls. The summary is : if you drive a sport car, touch screen+EV is better, it will go faster, with better traction etc. if you like outdoor: same as sport, better driving, an overview of complex spots, maps, planning of your trip, notifications etc... companies like Rivian market offering is completely about outdoor, Cybertruck, Ford follows. if you like comfort, sit-and-drive feeling: EV+Touch+Voice screen is the best option. You don't need start buttons, manual keys, manual controls etc... Just approach the car, open the door hit a pedal, and drive. Despite all these pros, the main problem is implementation. Look at Volkswagen. They try to copy the success of competitors, but they've been cheap with hardware and usability, their screens are glitchy. But that's just bad quality. The same was with some first-gen touch phones, that were able to glitch even when someone calls you.

poulsbohemian 5y ago

I recently drove a friend's Mercedes and the hard part wasn't the touchscreen but rather the input device. On the center console there were some physical buttons and levers, and on the steering wheel column there were multiple dials. The problem was that what I thought should have been the gear shifter was instead conceptually a "mouse" for navigating the on screen menu options. Thankfully I only needed to drive the car a few miles, as one friend had already given up on driving the car and asked me to take the wheel instead - she was that frustrated by the controls! Could be that I'd get used to it, but it wasn't a good first experience.

samwillis 5y ago

Ignoring the touchscreen debate. I picked up a new Audi in September, they asked if they could just give me a single key for now. i was given the actual stick part of the second key but not the fob. Obviously shortage in chips for the fobs. I’m sure if I protested they would have found another somewhere (or if I was picking up a top model) but I was happy to help. Will probably get the second fob next year sometime. They also told me they had to make a call to a customer that afternoon who had orders an A3 to a custom spec back in March 2021 to update her on the new delivery date… for March 2022. And that’s just an A3!

ubermonkey 5y ago

I have hated every touchscreen I've seen in every car, including and especially the Tesla, with the sole exception of touch-enabled implementations of CarPlay. It just seems like a bad idea. I have, for my whole driving life (so 35 years) often adjusted car settings by feel, without looking away from the road. Touch screens ruin that.

avelis 5y ago

What I find confusing is why BMW couldn't find another interior feature to remove so cars could ship with a touchscreen. For example, removing the wireless charging for certain models. I feel that having the infotainment screen would be used on every drive vs wireless charging.

tantalic 5y ago
The infotainment screen can be used with or without touch. This allows them to remove a chip without loosing functionality. For some of their enthusiast focused models many BMW drivers prefer the non-touch interface. I have had a BMW with a touch screen for 11.5 months now and a finger hasn’t touched the screen yet.

geophile 5y ago

I think a lot of comments here assume that the screen is going away completely. But I think it might be saying that the screen will still be there, controllable with the joystick. But that would still seem to require some silicon, no?

Fartyblaadfast 5y ago

It's only been in the press that the BMW touch screen issue has mainly been on USA bound vehicle. I'm awaiting delivery of a G23 in the UK and have been told by the dealer that the car is in the UK but they are unsure if it has a touch screen chip as BMW haven't advised........so delivery delayed. If it has no chip we've been offered £500.00. I have touch screen on my Mercedes but tend not to use it, the hey mercedes voice app works fine for nav, phone calls, etc