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I so want this for my Samsung TV... since they did a firmware update that puts ads into the source selection screen. And for what? A couple of dollars of side

I so want this for my Samsung TV... since they did a firmware update that puts ads into the source selection screen. And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred.

marceldegraaf 5y ago
Pro-tip: use a DNS provider that can block ads (e.g. NextDNS) or install Pi-Hole in your local network, and block Samsung's ad network domains. It's sad that this is necessary to keep enjoying a device of $2,000+ that you own, but it has worked beautifully for my Samsung Frame TV.
- josteink 5y ago
  Samsung does this for their top end models? WTF! I’ll put them on my list of devices to never buy then. Jeez.
  - patrickk 5y ago
    Samsung boasts about having Automatic Content Recognition[1] on their website. There was a discussion on HN some time ago, many/all major tv manufacturers suck in your viewing data via HDMI fingerprinting (IIRC) in order to serve up unblockable ads and sell your viewing profile to ad networks. Many tv makers send data to Chinese based servers too, from memory. It’s nuts. [1]https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-ad-retargeting/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-... Edit, more reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat...
  - ornornor 5y ago
    They do a lot more than that. In particular, they take a screenshot of what you’re currently watching at regular intervals and send it to a content recognition server. That way they’re able to tell what every single Samsung owner is watching at any given time and even if you’re watching a show you downloaded or something that’s not on the air. They then sell this data to broadcasters for measuring audience but also to show you ads related to what you’re watching (if you watched ice age, maybe they’ll advertise another animation movie to you). And they also use that data to target you on other devices you own because they’re able to use your tv as a Trojan horse and figure out what other devices are on your network and thus belong to the same person. IIRC they also scan and extract what devices are connected to hdmi ports so they know what consoles etc you’re using to further complete your advertising profile. That was several years ago, I can’t imagine they’ve gotten anything but even more data greedy over time. A good Samsung tv is an offline Samsung tv. A better Samsung tv is one you don’t own.
    - fnord123 5y ago
      This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe.
      - null_object 5y ago
        > This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe. I keep hoping this is gonna be the case, but the years roll on, I'm still clicking some stupid consent-popup on every single website I ever visit, and in the meantime TV manufacturers continuously spy on their users, sell their user-data, and push unwanted ads into their interface and even in programs being watched, and apparently no-one (apart from a few of us on HN) seems to care.
        Nullabillity 5y ago
        For what it's worth, at least on my Swedish model, this seems to be gated behind an opt-in (default off!) consent toggle. It was buried in several layers of menus, and not even mentioned during the setup process. So I would assume that this is mostly an issue in non-GDPR regions (or they're doing some really ugly legal shenanigans to ignore the denied consent?).
        fnord123 5y ago
        "We have a '''legitimate interest''' in getting your personal info, because we want to sell it to third parties" https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/legitimate-interest/ https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/legitimat... > Legitimate interests is most appropriate as a lawful basis where companies use personal data in a way that individuals can reasonably expect. If it impacts individuals, it can still apply if the controller company can justify there is a compelling reason for the impact the processing will have. > Companies can rely on legitimate interests for marketing purposes if they can prove that the data usage is proportionate and fair to the user. It must have a minimal impact on the user in privacy terms and be for a reason that people would not be surprised at. Sadly I would reasonably expect Samsung to sell the data and I would not be surprised by it.
        5y ago
- sneak 5y ago
  Just don't connect your tv to any network, wired or wireless, ever. It's much simpler.
  - slig 5y ago
    It works until every device has a 5G chip on them.
    - snvzz 5y ago
      Or your neighbor's tv has internet access, and relays telemetry for yours.
    - konfusinomicon 5y ago
      then the pi hole won't even save you. we're going to need to go full on Faraday cage to escape their prying eyes!
    - burnt_toast 5y ago
      If it comes to that point I will open my devices and cut the antennas
      - yardstick 5y ago
        Or extract the eSIM / figure out a way to use it for free internet like some did with Amazon Kindle SIMs.
      - slig 5y ago
        And then you'll ruin your warrant.
        burnt_toast 5y ago
        Warranty doesn't mean much to me. I'm an outlier who enjoys repairing their own devices. I recently repaired a week old laptop that arrived faulty (trackpad was messed up) instead of mailing it back. I'd only cut the antennas in a last case scenario. It's more likely they'd have a connector or I'd try to de-solder them first.
3guk 5y ago
Disable Samsung TV Plus - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus - and you'll be most of the way there to removing a lot of the intrusive advertising that currently shows on the Samsung homescreen.
- superjan 5y ago
  I concur. This removed the auto play trailers on my parent’s TV.
Sander_Marechal 5y ago
That crap forced me to finally pi-hole my entire home. I'm never buying a Samsung TV ever again, or other Samsung stuff. My dryer broke yesterday. I specifically bought an AEG because it was a dumb dryer, not some smart appliance with an app and all that junk. Don't get me wrong, I love smart stuff. In fact, I plugged my new dryer into a Shelly S plug so my home assistant can send me a notification on my phone when it's finished. But I trust my HA. I can never trust Samsung again. Pi-hole your network for a week and take a look at the logs to see all the crap it has blocked. You'll be surprised.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  I added PiHole on a RBP and it turns out up to half the rejected requests come from my various Samsung TVs. It's staggering how much traffic comes out of them. And that's in a home with two work from home adults in laptops all day. What are other people's experiences with other brands of TV?
  - gonehome 5y ago
    When I researched them a while back I came away with LG OLEDs being the best, particularly if you paired them with an Apple TV. There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options.
    - null_object 5y ago
      > There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options. Loewe[0] make really nice, simple, high-end TVs with great picture and sound, which really don't have intrusive 'smart' features. I use mine purely as a 'monitor' for AppleTV (and Nintendo Switch). The problem is distribution: they're difficult to source even within Europe. [0]https://www.loewe.tv/int https://www.loewe.tv/int
      - 4ggr0 5y ago
        My problem is, that I essentially want a dumb TV, but with gaming features, I guess the mix of my requirements is what makes it impossible. If someone knows a dumb, 120hz, GSync and OLED TV, let me know :)
LeonM 5y ago
> And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred. Don't forget that the HN crowd is not your average consumer. Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. They just want the best TV they can afford in terms of size and picture quality. With companies this big, who have been in the consumer electronics market for decades, you can be sure that every decision (like putting ads in a menu) is tested over and over. Obviously Samsung knows that they will loose a tiny percentage of the enthusiast market by placing ads. But the margin on the sale of a TV is pretty slim anyways, and multiple years of ad income for every sold unit is probably worth losing a small fraction of your audience.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  So funny story. I have two wifis in our house ( one piholed, one not ). One day my wife comes up to me asks me why there are ads on her game now ( she was using pihole all this time ). Edit: Turns out cable was pulled. People notice, but you have to re-condition them. I know adless hulu and netflix did their part in that fight.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  > Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. There's a difference between enjoying the current state and accepting the current state. A few years ago, while helping my grandmother find something online, I asked if she would want an adblocker installed. After explaining what it was, and what the effect was, she was over the moon for it. Ads are noticed by everyone, and are pretty universally despised. The difference is that you and I know that there are options, while less techy relatives assume that nothing can be changed.
- deergomoo 5y ago
  I generally agree, but they put that crap on TVs that cost well into the thousands. Surely it’s only enthusiasts buying those?
imglorp 5y ago
Here's more reasons to hate: it's a serious surveillance device. 1. It uploads voice samples. Don't say anything sensitive in the room. https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX 2.It uploads screenshots regardless of input. See other threads. 3.Front facing camera. Not kidding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY 4. Audio beacons? Old news. https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-every-movement/125484/ https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-... 5. Targeted ad market, selling you. https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-to-target-smart-tv-owners-with-ads-revealed-3939709 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-... 6. If you don't give it wifi, it may decide to find some by itself anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_smart_tvs_connect_to_open_wifi_networks_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_s...
- kall 5y ago
  This is all horrific, but I was especially shocked by 6 so I read that. This seems to be only someone asking if this may happen, and no one answering that it would. Of course this is the point of Amazon Sidewalk, so in due time, it probably will.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    I would expect a friendly nearby neighbor's TV which has network to be able to act as access point for other TVs surveillance facilities. They can technically do it, and I totally expect them to be doing it already.
    - lvass 5y ago
      The cheapest TV models mention access point as a feature nowadays, they're targeted to hotel rooms.
    - everybodyknows 5y ago
      Neighbor's TV, neighbor's Amazon Echo or Ring doorbell: https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk
matheusmoreira 5y ago
> ads into the source selection screen Is there ever a point where these advertisers stop and think "no, this is too obnoxious"?
- reaperducer 5y ago
  The advertisers probably don't pick the placement. All they know is that their content is being shown on TVs.
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    I assumed the TV manufacturers are also considered advertisers since the TVs show ads.
LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago
The link also hosts the last (obsolete now?) SamyGo. So there is something at least, from where one could start, instead of reinventing the wheel from scratch. Don't know if it could be applied to current models at all. Not following that stuff, since not using TVs since 1996.

marceldegraaf 5y ago

Pro-tip: use a DNS provider that can block ads (e.g. NextDNS) or install Pi-Hole in your local network, and block Samsung's ad network domains. It's sad that this is necessary to keep enjoying a device of $2,000+ that you own, but it has worked beautifully for my Samsung Frame TV.

josteink 5y ago
Samsung does this for their top end models? WTF! I’ll put them on my list of devices to never buy then. Jeez.
- patrickk 5y ago
  Samsung boasts about having Automatic Content Recognition[1] on their website. There was a discussion on HN some time ago, many/all major tv manufacturers suck in your viewing data via HDMI fingerprinting (IIRC) in order to serve up unblockable ads and sell your viewing profile to ad networks. Many tv makers send data to Chinese based servers too, from memory. It’s nuts. [1]https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-ad-retargeting/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/samsungads/resources/tv-... Edit, more reading: https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-your-tv-watches-back/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-wat...
- ornornor 5y ago
  They do a lot more than that. In particular, they take a screenshot of what you’re currently watching at regular intervals and send it to a content recognition server. That way they’re able to tell what every single Samsung owner is watching at any given time and even if you’re watching a show you downloaded or something that’s not on the air. They then sell this data to broadcasters for measuring audience but also to show you ads related to what you’re watching (if you watched ice age, maybe they’ll advertise another animation movie to you). And they also use that data to target you on other devices you own because they’re able to use your tv as a Trojan horse and figure out what other devices are on your network and thus belong to the same person. IIRC they also scan and extract what devices are connected to hdmi ports so they know what consoles etc you’re using to further complete your advertising profile. That was several years ago, I can’t imagine they’ve gotten anything but even more data greedy over time. A good Samsung tv is an offline Samsung tv. A better Samsung tv is one you don’t own.
  - fnord123 5y ago
    This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe.
    - null_object 5y ago
      > This is gonna be some hefty GDPR fines in Europe. I keep hoping this is gonna be the case, but the years roll on, I'm still clicking some stupid consent-popup on every single website I ever visit, and in the meantime TV manufacturers continuously spy on their users, sell their user-data, and push unwanted ads into their interface and even in programs being watched, and apparently no-one (apart from a few of us on HN) seems to care.
      - Nullabillity 5y ago
        For what it's worth, at least on my Swedish model, this seems to be gated behind an opt-in (default off!) consent toggle. It was buried in several layers of menus, and not even mentioned during the setup process. So I would assume that this is mostly an issue in non-GDPR regions (or they're doing some really ugly legal shenanigans to ignore the denied consent?).
        fnord123 5y ago
        "We have a '''legitimate interest''' in getting your personal info, because we want to sell it to third parties" https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/legitimate-interest/ https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/legitimat... > Legitimate interests is most appropriate as a lawful basis where companies use personal data in a way that individuals can reasonably expect. If it impacts individuals, it can still apply if the controller company can justify there is a compelling reason for the impact the processing will have. > Companies can rely on legitimate interests for marketing purposes if they can prove that the data usage is proportionate and fair to the user. It must have a minimal impact on the user in privacy terms and be for a reason that people would not be surprised at. Sadly I would reasonably expect Samsung to sell the data and I would not be surprised by it.
      - 5y ago
sneak 5y ago
Just don't connect your tv to any network, wired or wireless, ever. It's much simpler.
- slig 5y ago
  It works until every device has a 5G chip on them.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    Or your neighbor's tv has internet access, and relays telemetry for yours.
  - konfusinomicon 5y ago
    then the pi hole won't even save you. we're going to need to go full on Faraday cage to escape their prying eyes!
  - burnt_toast 5y ago
    If it comes to that point I will open my devices and cut the antennas
    - yardstick 5y ago
      Or extract the eSIM / figure out a way to use it for free internet like some did with Amazon Kindle SIMs.
    - slig 5y ago
      And then you'll ruin your warrant.
      - burnt_toast 5y ago
        Warranty doesn't mean much to me. I'm an outlier who enjoys repairing their own devices. I recently repaired a week old laptop that arrived faulty (trackpad was messed up) instead of mailing it back. I'd only cut the antennas in a last case scenario. It's more likely they'd have a connector or I'd try to de-solder them first.

3guk 5y ago

Disable Samsung TV Plus - https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_TV_Plus - and you'll be most of the way there to removing a lot of the intrusive advertising that currently shows on the Samsung homescreen.

superjan 5y ago
I concur. This removed the auto play trailers on my parent’s TV.

Sander_Marechal 5y ago

That crap forced me to finally pi-hole my entire home. I'm never buying a Samsung TV ever again, or other Samsung stuff. My dryer broke yesterday. I specifically bought an AEG because it was a dumb dryer, not some smart appliance with an app and all that junk. Don't get me wrong, I love smart stuff. In fact, I plugged my new dryer into a Shelly S plug so my home assistant can send me a notification on my phone when it's finished. But I trust my HA. I can never trust Samsung again. Pi-hole your network for a week and take a look at the logs to see all the crap it has blocked. You'll be surprised.

lordnacho 5y ago
I added PiHole on a RBP and it turns out up to half the rejected requests come from my various Samsung TVs. It's staggering how much traffic comes out of them. And that's in a home with two work from home adults in laptops all day. What are other people's experiences with other brands of TV?
- gonehome 5y ago
  When I researched them a while back I came away with LG OLEDs being the best, particularly if you paired them with an Apple TV. There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options.
  - null_object 5y ago
    > There are no good high-end “dumb” tv options. Loewe[0] make really nice, simple, high-end TVs with great picture and sound, which really don't have intrusive 'smart' features. I use mine purely as a 'monitor' for AppleTV (and Nintendo Switch). The problem is distribution: they're difficult to source even within Europe. [0]https://www.loewe.tv/int https://www.loewe.tv/int
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      My problem is, that I essentially want a dumb TV, but with gaming features, I guess the mix of my requirements is what makes it impossible. If someone knows a dumb, 120hz, GSync and OLED TV, let me know :)

LeonM 5y ago

> And for what? A couple of dollars of side revenue. And whole lot of customer hatred. Don't forget that the HN crowd is not your average consumer. Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. They just want the best TV they can afford in terms of size and picture quality. With companies this big, who have been in the consumer electronics market for decades, you can be sure that every decision (like putting ads in a menu) is tested over and over. Obviously Samsung knows that they will loose a tiny percentage of the enthusiast market by placing ads. But the margin on the sale of a TV is pretty slim anyways, and multiple years of ad income for every sold unit is probably worth losing a small fraction of your audience.

A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
So funny story. I have two wifis in our house ( one piholed, one not ). One day my wife comes up to me asks me why there are ads on her game now ( she was using pihole all this time ). Edit: Turns out cable was pulled. People notice, but you have to re-condition them. I know adless hulu and netflix did their part in that fight.
MereInterest 5y ago
> Most people don't care, or don't seem to have issues with the ads. There's a difference between enjoying the current state and accepting the current state. A few years ago, while helping my grandmother find something online, I asked if she would want an adblocker installed. After explaining what it was, and what the effect was, she was over the moon for it. Ads are noticed by everyone, and are pretty universally despised. The difference is that you and I know that there are options, while less techy relatives assume that nothing can be changed.
deergomoo 5y ago
I generally agree, but they put that crap on TVs that cost well into the thousands. Surely it’s only enthusiasts buying those?

imglorp 5y ago

Here's more reasons to hate: it's a serious surveillance device. 1. It uploads voice samples. Don't say anything sensitive in the room. https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX https://imgur.com/Phy1uzX 2.It uploads screenshots regardless of input. See other threads. 3.Front facing camera. Not kidding. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x6TOtkFQxY 4. Audio beacons? Old news. https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-every-movement/125484/ https://threatpost.com/ultrasonic-beacons-are-tracking-your-... 5. Targeted ad market, selling you. https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-to-target-smart-tv-owners-with-ads-revealed-3939709 https://www.trustedreviews.com/news/samsungs-invasive-plans-... 6. If you don't give it wifi, it may decide to find some by itself anyway. https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_smart_tvs_connect_to_open_wifi_networks_or/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskTechnology/comments/odf9qu/can_s...

kall 5y ago
This is all horrific, but I was especially shocked by 6 so I read that. This seems to be only someone asking if this may happen, and no one answering that it would. Of course this is the point of Amazon Sidewalk, so in due time, it probably will.
- snvzz 5y ago
  I would expect a friendly nearby neighbor's TV which has network to be able to act as access point for other TVs surveillance facilities. They can technically do it, and I totally expect them to be doing it already.
  - lvass 5y ago
    The cheapest TV models mention access point as a feature nowadays, they're targeted to hotel rooms.
  - everybodyknows 5y ago
    Neighbor's TV, neighbor's Amazon Echo or Ring doorbell: https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk

matheusmoreira 5y ago

> ads into the source selection screen Is there ever a point where these advertisers stop and think "no, this is too obnoxious"?

reaperducer 5y ago
The advertisers probably don't pick the placement. All they know is that their content is being shown on TVs.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  I assumed the TV manufacturers are also considered advertisers since the TVs show ads.

LargoLasskhyfv 5y ago

The link also hosts the last (obsolete now?) SamyGo. So there is something at least, from where one could start, instead of reinventing the wheel from scratch. Don't know if it could be applied to current models at all. Not following that stuff, since not using TVs since 1996.