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I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your goods." China doesn't need to occupy us, they just need to buy us out.

DaedPsyker 5y ago
I'd say a good historical analogues (personal opinion ofc) would be the fall the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The political system was heavily fragmented and easily bought, and essentially foreign countries cheaply bought influence specifically to undermine the country. Selfishness doomed attempts at reform, and doomed the country as a whole.
- whearyou 5y ago
  True, hopefully the rule systems in the US are less ass backwards than they were in the PLC. Also as a Jewish person, a scary analog…
shostack 5y ago
I think you mean Citizen's United.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
rp1 5y ago
I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the administrations of both parties all the way back to Nixon.
- lumost 5y ago
  The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?
  - lazyeye 5y ago
    Its quite simple. With the advent of globalisation the self-interest of the elites is no longer in alignment with the national interest. They can make money far more easily by employing Chinese workers, growing Chinese industry, than they do local. And of course, anyone that pushes back against this is (conveniently) a "xenophobic, racist, white supremacist, Trump-voting blah blah blah...".
    - asplake 5y ago
      That last part was both unnecessary and wrong. Globalisation has plenty of opponents on the left too.
      - kelnos 5y ago
        I think it's too narrow to talk about it as simply "globalization". Globalization has done some really great things, like lifting millions of people out of poverty. But the US has also failed to keep itself competitive with China, and China has (unfairly, IMO, but I'm of course biased) taken advantage of the US's IP and talent (among other things) in order to increase their global influence and gain leverage over the countries that used to be economically "superior" to China. I think ideology plays a part in why this is "bad", as well. As an American, I wouldn't mind so much if the next growing superpower believed in democratic principles. As much as I'm happy I was born in and grew up in the US, I wouldn't see a problem with a "better US" growing beyond the US in terms of economic and political power. But I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of an authoritarian country in that position; China already constantly uses its political clout to censor US citizens and businesses, for example. I expect China's power over citizens of other countries, people who will never even set foot in China, to increase over time, and that worries me quite a bit. It often feels like our only hope is that China makes some huge strategic mistakes, or succumbs to unfixable/unknown structural issues.
labster 5y ago
If it is the “fall of Rome moment”, I’m not exactly worried. It took nearly a millennium for Rome to fall — and even that depends on whether or not you consider the Holy Roman Empire or the Ottoman Empire to be true successor states.
- rvba 5y ago
  So basically you dont care what happens when you die? Sounds like boomer logic. "A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit."
  - d4v3 5y ago
    > Sounds like boomer logic. A little ageist, are we?
  - labster 5y ago
    Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Boomers were the ones who started the recent environmental movement, so your quote is rather ironic.
    - 5y ago
justicezyx 5y ago
US power is already bought by the US businesses... CCP as the representative of the China Corp, is coming to buy their influence...
arcticbull 5y ago
In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped society and the economy in support of this inevitable future. Mark my words, those jobs are never coming back to American human workers. And that's fantastic, they sucked. Society needs to prepare for the future where there's more people than work to be done.
- fspeech 5y ago
  Chinese ports are automated. American ones much less so. China has much less resistance to automation from unions.
  - arcticbull 5y ago
    Well, in part because independent trade unions are illegal in China. And by "independent" I mean not a mouthpiece of the CCP. This is partly what I meant by reshaping the economy, though. Unions are there to push back against capital, but the adversarial capital v. labor system only really makes sense in a world where there's at least as much work to be done as people. Of course all else being equal unions are going to look out for their members and their members jobs. It's that or the unemployment lines. However, the society of the future simply won't have those jobs. It will require some new and different social contract. UBI perhaps is an alpha.
  - legulere 5y ago
    As a European, unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Can you show me some examples where unions acted out against automatisation?
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      Here it is from the horse's mouth, the newspaper of the ILA - International Longshoreman's Union: https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto... "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). "The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive." [...] ILWU Local 10 in 2019 tried unsuccessfully to convince the city of Los Angeles to block a construction project for the APM Terminals automation project. Here is the AP: https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 The uproar comes as a facility operated for Denmark’s Moller-Maersk by APM Terminals plans to use the battery-powered, self-guided cargo handling equipment, which APM contends is a response to the ports’ clean air rules. [...] Union members, however, fear the equipment will spread to all terminals and hundreds of jobs will be lost. They contend APM could use manned electric vehicles. Las Vegas Culinary union strike: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequality-union-automation_n_5ae043f9e4b061c0bfa32e0c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequal... https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las-vegas-workers-vote-to-strike-over-fears-robots-are-taking-their-jobs/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las... Over 50,000 union workers in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, are set to go on strike if new contracts are not settled. One of the main drivers for the strike action is the fear that robots will gradually displace human operators. The Culinary Union is just one of many labor unions grappling with how to respond to the spread of automation and artificial intelligence – whether driverless trucks or lifting and sorting machines at warehouses. Alongside the fears automation poses to workers, there are concerns that it is also undermining the very organizations designed to support them: labor unions. Harry Katz, former dean of the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations, said automation has reduced unions’ might in many industries by shrinking their membership and making it easier for companies to break or survive a strike. Organized labor is likely to lose further power and membership as a result of the ongoing wave of automation, he said. * Boeing machinists' union: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussle-over-223245244.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussl... Union leaders are concerned about a Boeing campaign known as “Quality Transformation,” which relies on automated processes such as robotic riveting and precision machining to cut down on manufacturing defects. Boeing says such processes make airplane assembly more “mistake-proof.” Aero Mechanic said Boeing laid out its plans and their potential effect on quality-assurance jobs in November. “Per the PowerPoint Boeing presented to our union, Boeing estimates their plan will impact 451 QA jobs next year and potentially a similar amount in 2020,” the newspaper reported. “This will not only place a heavier burden on our mechanics but will also eliminate the second set of eyes on thousands of work packages.” * 1953-55 UAW strikes at Ford over automation see this historical case study: http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casestudy1.htm http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casest... Rising to speak in support of the automation resolution, Alfred Granakis, Local 1250’s convention delegate, stated, “I just want to say a couple of words on this because we have got 78 people in Cleveland doing the work of 770 people from the Rouge and we are out-producing them with 78 people. . . . I am representing more machines than I am men in Cleveland. The thing I would like to see is this changed just a little bit.” He then chided UAW President Reuther: “I wish the Executive Board would be instructed to formulate a policy and inform the local union affected by it.” Reuther responded, “We are completely aware and fully conscious of the problem which the resolution covers. . . . The Ford engine plant is the best example today where they have whole batteries of machines with a fellow on one end and another fellow half a block away with the whole thing mechanized.” After the UAW convention Granakis again urgently wrote Reuther, “As you are well aware, the problem of production standards is one of a recurring nature and needs eternal vigilance, particularly with the reactionary Ford Motor Company.” In UAW Local 1250’s contract negotiations, automation continued to prove the most intractable issue. “As for the problem of Automation,” Granakis told the UAW President, “except for saying ‘no’ and insisting on more men on the job, I have taken no other position until I hear from you.” In order to capture the Ford negotiators’ attention, and possibly Reuther’s too, Local 1250 leaders sought and received formal approval for a strike authorization request from the Cleveland area UAW regional director. In addition to high rates of absenteeism and numerous shop-floor grievances, [..] an overwhelming majority (almost 90 percent) of the engine-plant workers voted to authorize a strike in the midst of collective bargaining over automation problems. In 1953 the Ford Cleveland engine plant and foundry had four unauthorized work stoppages; in 1954 there were two unauthorized walkouts. These wildcat strikes idled 1,970 men and resulted in 8,439 lost man-hours. These walkouts comprised the tip of the iceberg of worker discontent over automation.
la6471 5y ago
Empires fall , civilizations thrive.
api 5y ago
Citizens United is a threat to national security and needs to be fixed with a constitutional amendment.

DaedPsyker 5y ago

I'd say a good historical analogues (personal opinion ofc) would be the fall the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The political system was heavily fragmented and easily bought, and essentially foreign countries cheaply bought influence specifically to undermine the country. Selfishness doomed attempts at reform, and doomed the country as a whole.

whearyou 5y ago
True, hopefully the rule systems in the US are less ass backwards than they were in the PLC. Also as a Jewish person, a scary analog…

shostack 5y ago

I think you mean Citizen's United.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

rp1 5y ago

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the administrations of both parties all the way back to Nixon.

lumost 5y ago
The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?
- lazyeye 5y ago
  Its quite simple. With the advent of globalisation the self-interest of the elites is no longer in alignment with the national interest. They can make money far more easily by employing Chinese workers, growing Chinese industry, than they do local. And of course, anyone that pushes back against this is (conveniently) a "xenophobic, racist, white supremacist, Trump-voting blah blah blah...".
  - asplake 5y ago
    That last part was both unnecessary and wrong. Globalisation has plenty of opponents on the left too.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      I think it's too narrow to talk about it as simply "globalization". Globalization has done some really great things, like lifting millions of people out of poverty. But the US has also failed to keep itself competitive with China, and China has (unfairly, IMO, but I'm of course biased) taken advantage of the US's IP and talent (among other things) in order to increase their global influence and gain leverage over the countries that used to be economically "superior" to China. I think ideology plays a part in why this is "bad", as well. As an American, I wouldn't mind so much if the next growing superpower believed in democratic principles. As much as I'm happy I was born in and grew up in the US, I wouldn't see a problem with a "better US" growing beyond the US in terms of economic and political power. But I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of an authoritarian country in that position; China already constantly uses its political clout to censor US citizens and businesses, for example. I expect China's power over citizens of other countries, people who will never even set foot in China, to increase over time, and that worries me quite a bit. It often feels like our only hope is that China makes some huge strategic mistakes, or succumbs to unfixable/unknown structural issues.

labster 5y ago

If it is the “fall of Rome moment”, I’m not exactly worried. It took nearly a millennium for Rome to fall — and even that depends on whether or not you consider the Holy Roman Empire or the Ottoman Empire to be true successor states.

rvba 5y ago
So basically you dont care what happens when you die? Sounds like boomer logic. "A society grows great when old men plant trees in whose shade they know they shall never sit."
- d4v3 5y ago
  > Sounds like boomer logic. A little ageist, are we?
- labster 5y ago
  Turning and turning in the widening gyre The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand. The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert A shape with lion body and the head of a man, A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds. The darkness drops again; but now I know That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, And what rough beast, its hour come round at last, Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Boomers were the ones who started the recent environmental movement, so your quote is rather ironic.
  - 5y ago

justicezyx 5y ago

US power is already bought by the US businesses... CCP as the representative of the China Corp, is coming to buy their influence...

arcticbull 5y ago

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped society and the economy in support of this inevitable future. Mark my words, those jobs are never coming back to American human workers. And that's fantastic, they sucked. Society needs to prepare for the future where there's more people than work to be done.

fspeech 5y ago
Chinese ports are automated. American ones much less so. China has much less resistance to automation from unions.
- arcticbull 5y ago
  Well, in part because independent trade unions are illegal in China. And by "independent" I mean not a mouthpiece of the CCP. This is partly what I meant by reshaping the economy, though. Unions are there to push back against capital, but the adversarial capital v. labor system only really makes sense in a world where there's at least as much work to be done as people. Of course all else being equal unions are going to look out for their members and their members jobs. It's that or the unemployment lines. However, the society of the future simply won't have those jobs. It will require some new and different social contract. UBI perhaps is an alpha.
- legulere 5y ago
  As a European, unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Can you show me some examples where unions acted out against automatisation?
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    Here it is from the horse's mouth, the newspaper of the ILA - International Longshoreman's Union: https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto... "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). "The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive." [...] ILWU Local 10 in 2019 tried unsuccessfully to convince the city of Los Angeles to block a construction project for the APM Terminals automation project. Here is the AP: https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 https://apnews.com/article/49e7d246e6984738b107a9ae0e25f954 The uproar comes as a facility operated for Denmark’s Moller-Maersk by APM Terminals plans to use the battery-powered, self-guided cargo handling equipment, which APM contends is a response to the ports’ clean air rules. [...] Union members, however, fear the equipment will spread to all terminals and hundreds of jobs will be lost. They contend APM could use manned electric vehicles. Las Vegas Culinary union strike: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequality-union-automation_n_5ae043f9e4b061c0bfa32e0c https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-workers-jobs-inequal... https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las-vegas-workers-vote-to-strike-over-fears-robots-are-taking-their-jobs/ https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2018/05/50-000-las... Over 50,000 union workers in Las Vegas, Nevada, USA, are set to go on strike if new contracts are not settled. One of the main drivers for the strike action is the fear that robots will gradually displace human operators. The Culinary Union is just one of many labor unions grappling with how to respond to the spread of automation and artificial intelligence – whether driverless trucks or lifting and sorting machines at warehouses. Alongside the fears automation poses to workers, there are concerns that it is also undermining the very organizations designed to support them: labor unions. Harry Katz, former dean of the Cornell University School of Industrial and Labor Relations, said automation has reduced unions’ might in many industries by shrinking their membership and making it easier for companies to break or survive a strike. Organized labor is likely to lose further power and membership as a result of the ongoing wave of automation, he said. * Boeing machinists' union: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussle-over-223245244.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-machinists-union-tussl... Union leaders are concerned about a Boeing campaign known as “Quality Transformation,” which relies on automated processes such as robotic riveting and precision machining to cut down on manufacturing defects. Boeing says such processes make airplane assembly more “mistake-proof.” Aero Mechanic said Boeing laid out its plans and their potential effect on quality-assurance jobs in November. “Per the PowerPoint Boeing presented to our union, Boeing estimates their plan will impact 451 QA jobs next year and potentially a similar amount in 2020,” the newspaper reported. “This will not only place a heavier burden on our mechanics but will also eliminate the second set of eyes on thousands of work packages.” * 1953-55 UAW strikes at Ford over automation see this historical case study: http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casestudy1.htm http://www.autolife.umd.umich.edu/Labor/L_Casestudy/L_casest... Rising to speak in support of the automation resolution, Alfred Granakis, Local 1250’s convention delegate, stated, “I just want to say a couple of words on this because we have got 78 people in Cleveland doing the work of 770 people from the Rouge and we are out-producing them with 78 people. . . . I am representing more machines than I am men in Cleveland. The thing I would like to see is this changed just a little bit.” He then chided UAW President Reuther: “I wish the Executive Board would be instructed to formulate a policy and inform the local union affected by it.” Reuther responded, “We are completely aware and fully conscious of the problem which the resolution covers. . . . The Ford engine plant is the best example today where they have whole batteries of machines with a fellow on one end and another fellow half a block away with the whole thing mechanized.” After the UAW convention Granakis again urgently wrote Reuther, “As you are well aware, the problem of production standards is one of a recurring nature and needs eternal vigilance, particularly with the reactionary Ford Motor Company.” In UAW Local 1250’s contract negotiations, automation continued to prove the most intractable issue. “As for the problem of Automation,” Granakis told the UAW President, “except for saying ‘no’ and insisting on more men on the job, I have taken no other position until I hear from you.” In order to capture the Ford negotiators’ attention, and possibly Reuther’s too, Local 1250 leaders sought and received formal approval for a strike authorization request from the Cleveland area UAW regional director. In addition to high rates of absenteeism and numerous shop-floor grievances, [..] an overwhelming majority (almost 90 percent) of the engine-plant workers voted to authorize a strike in the midst of collective bargaining over automation problems. In 1953 the Ford Cleveland engine plant and foundry had four unauthorized work stoppages; in 1954 there were two unauthorized walkouts. These wildcat strikes idled 1,970 men and resulted in 8,439 lost man-hours. These walkouts comprised the tip of the iceberg of worker discontent over automation.

la6471 5y ago

Empires fall , civilizations thrive.

api 5y ago

Citizens United is a threat to national security and needs to be fixed with a constitutional amendment.