21 ms·

NixOS on Framework Laptop

358 points by kvark 5y ago

jph 5y ago
Framework + NixOS is the most exciting hardware + OS going IMHO. If someone wants to do a crowdfunding or devpay or similar to make them work out of the box together, I will gladly donate or pay.
- fungiblecog 5y ago
  +1
- whateveracct 5y ago
  import framework.nix {}
  - joppy 5y ago
    The post itself shows that it is non-trivial to even boot this hardware with Nix.
    - whateveracct 5y ago
      yes I know - I am implying a future where they Just Work and we do the hard work of building needed abstractions my code is possible if people want it :) the real value of NixOS is hardware and OS config can be turned into libraries!
    - prophesi 5y ago
      The only issues were needing to disable secure boot (which is usually a required step on laptops preinstalled with Windows anyways), and using a recent Linux kernel that has the required WiFi driver. Which the tutorial linked in the post mentions. And then Linux in general is notorious for having issues with USB WiFi adapters. More info on that can be found here https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi
- b9be520d93286 5y ago
  Can you do NixOS without systemd? If not, I'd look elsewhere for the distro. Maybe Guix?
  - jeppesen-io 5y ago
    Just take the time to learn systemd. Once you do, like nix, it saves so much time
    - gigatexal 5y ago
      Yeah no point in fighting it. It’s the standard. Learn to love SystemD.
    - rollcat 5y ago
      systemd is so complex, I've come to a conclusion, that it no longer fits my definition of free software. We allow runaway complexity to obscure the inner workings of an important software package, to the point, where having source access no longer makes a practical difference to a "casual" power-user or even a software engineer. I can source-dive runit, s6, OpenBSD's rc, or OpenRC and within a weekend, have a pretty OK understanding, fix a bug, or add a feature. Having software as complex as systemd taking so many roles, and making itself so ubiquitous and irreplaceable, makes me feel that I no longer have any control or understanding of my system, bugs or misfeatures just become things you live with, or you riddle yourself with arcane workarounds. Portability suffers, monoculture takes root. I've lost faith in "mainstream" Linux distros. I use macOS and OpenBSD for workstations, and Alpine where I need e.g. Docker. It must either be simple enough to understand, or provide enough utility/convenience that the lack of (practical) source access is compensated. systemd fits neither category.
      - candiddevmike 5y ago
        Yes, systemd has a ton of surface area and options. Yes, the man pages are long. No, you don't need to read them--the beauty of systemd is you control how much of the complexity you use. Unit files can be 10 lines or 30. Most of the extra options are for security and hardening, when you need them you'll be glad they're easy to turn on. For the other components, I think have a stable, familiar, and consistent set of core services (boot, ntp, logging, networking) is glorious
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  It's not what you're asking but I wonder if NixOS's hardware repo could expand to support Framework with some good defaults That being said, I think there could be a good use case for "meta" NixOS distributions. I'm working on such a thing for a NixOS based RetroArch type thing. But could see a PopOS like configuration, focused on on an “out the box experience” https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware
  - samueldr 5y ago
    Yes. Anyone with the hardware is welcome to contribute to nixos-hardware! Even "no-op empty configs" are good imo as they show "there's no magic sauce needed".
    - jeppesen-io 5y ago
      good to know; didn't think about "empty" configs
  - emiller88 5y ago
    https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 Created an issue for this for anyone interested!
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Possibly of interest: SimulaVR (www.simulavr.com) is about to release a crowdfunding campaign for a portable Linux VR headset which will run NixOS stock under the hood (basically NixOS + Simula's window manager).
- tomjen3 5y ago
  I don't really see them as exciting when they are still Intel only. As far as I am aware you can't upgrade the CPU, much less upgrade it to AMD. I plan on keeping my M1 for a 2-3 more years, then we will have to see what Framework has come up with then. I like them a lot in principle (peripherals that can be switched to what I need? Yes please. Upgradable RAM? thanks), but I also won't compromise on battery time, performance or "linux works outside the box". Battery time could have been an easy fix if they had made it so I could switch the battery without taking the laptop apart.
- globular-toast 5y ago
  Replace NixOS with Guix and I agree!
  - phaer 5y ago
    I'd love to see Guix with SystemD, but there's no work going in that direction that I am aware of. While I appreciate the work on [GNU Shepherd](https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html), especially their documentation quality and the use of scheme instead of the rather obscure nix language, learning yet another init system on top of a new distro while systemd seemingly has won most of the market makes NixOS more attractive. At least to me
    - mbakke 5y ago
      Even if Guix were to switch to systemd (it won't), end users would primarily be interacting with services through the same high-level APIs as now. https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services That is, the only difference in practice would be replacing 'herd' with 'systemctl' when stopping and starting services manually. Anything else, such as modifying a service, has to go through the configuration system. Similarly, for service authors, whether the API you design ends up creating a systemd unit file or shepherd service object is an implementation detail and would be mostly transparent.
hyperstar 5y ago
is it possible to install coreboot or libreboot on this thing? does it have something equivalent to the intel management engine?
- rnhmjoj 5y ago
  No, they're using a proprietary BIOS and firmware for the embedded controller. The hardware is all Intel and of course it has a management engine[1], even all the nasty vPro "features". From the software freedom point of view it's very much a no go, although they are apparently going to release the firmware sources and looking into coreboot[2]. [1]: https://community.frame.work/t/does-intel-chip-have-intels-management-engine/1260/4 https://community.frame.work/t/does-intel-chip-have-intels-m... [2]: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...
  - nrp 5y ago
    This is a good spot to mention that we’re hiring a Firmware Engineer, and we’d love to bring someone on who has coreboot experience: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/af82bd1b-7ebd-46da-8ae4-7dab700496d7 https://jobs.lever.co/framework/af82bd1b-7ebd-46da-8ae4-7dab...
    - panick21 5y ago
      Maybe work together with system76, they have tons of experience with this and they have lots of software that you might be able to use that is already open source.
    - hyperstar 5y ago
      good! i'll buy one when i can know it won't spy on me. and might i suggest (if you don't have this already) a physical off-switch, not just for the mic and cam, but also for wifi and bluetooth.
rjeli 5y ago
Nice. Framework is super exciting, but I hope they release more cad files for the laptop so third parties can make e.g. keyboards and motherboards. Would be a bummer if their business model is lock-in on everything but the expansion cards. I’d love to put an underpowered qcom or nxp arm64 chip in and get insane battery life, but that doesn’t seem likely for a while since it needs 4x usb4 :/. Even the Xavier nx SoM only has 1x4 lane pcie..
- lunixbochs 5y ago
  Seems to me like you could power some of the ports with a hub/switch if you're willing to restrict which ports accept advanced peripherals. You could even use a PCIe switch to get more Thunderbolt.
  - buildbot 5y ago
    Yeah the trick would be thunderbolt more than anything, USB-C out to all four ports would be easy enough with a hub?
    - rjeli 5y ago
      yeah, it just feels rude to bifurcate the ecosystem and confuse everyone about the amount of i/o available
      - lunixbochs 5y ago
        I think you could do it in such a way that you only restrict the ports available for alternate mode display output, and everything else still works. I don't think it's rude. It's about choice, just make sure it's clear to the users what sort of peripherals they should expect to work. That said I think it would be almost more fun to put the arm computer into the USB C module.
- nrp 5y ago
  We started with Expansion Cards because they are they simplest both for us to release a documentation package around and for a third party to develop. We will be expanding out from there though.
claytonjy 5y ago
As a framework owner, this is nice to see. I have yet to take the plunge on Nix (been happy with PopOS on mine), and wouldn't without Bluetooth support, but it's good to know it's possible and relatively painless. I'm hoping to start with nix+home-manager at some point, maybe on top of PopOS; anyone have experience with that setup?
- ptaken 5y ago
  Nix + home-manager is how I started on arch. After moving about 80% of my Pacman-installed packages over to nix-configured packages bit by bit over weeks and after that all of my dotfiles I plunged into nixos. Transition was super smooth, can only recommend!
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    Can I install packages not present in the official NixOS repositories without learning the Nix DSL?
    - soraminazuki 5y ago
      You can, if your repository of choice provides a Nix channel[1]. However, the community effort is currently concentrated in the official Nixpkgs repository. So while there are numerous projects based on Nix run outside of the NixOS organization, there aren't any "major" unofficial package repository that I'm aware of. For packaging work, people just tend to contribute directly to the official repository. In fact, the volume of PRs in the official repository is so high I'm surprised at how they manage to keep going in spite of that. It's also worth noting that many of the benefits of Nix are directly driven from being able to write custom Nix expressions. So if you want to reap all of its benefits, it's definitely worth learning. The core language is small and the experience is not so far off from writing JSON, so that part is relatively easy to pick up. The actual work lies in learning how packaging is done in Nixpkgs. This is best done by grepping around the Nixpkgs repository for examples. Nixpkgs' policy of having all packages in a single repository really shines here. [1]: https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_channels https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_channels
orf 5y ago
> Mozilla requires LUKS full-disk encryption, and having it setup conflicted with NVidia’s proprietary driver I’ve seen this warning in the Ubuntu docs. Can someone explain exactly why a GPU driver would cause issues with disk encryption and UEFI boot?
- remexre 5y ago
  I conjecture the securely booted kernel won't load unsigned modules, and out-of-tree drivers don't get signed when the kernel and its modules do.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    You can work around this[1]. [1] https://askubuntu.com/questions/1023036/how-to-install-nvidia-driver-with-secure-boot-enabled/1049479#1049479 https://askubuntu.com/questions/1023036/how-to-install-nvidi...
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    I wish people understood the Secure Boot spec better. This problem is totally unnecessary. The spec says no unsigned code can run until ExitBootServices is called, but people treat it as if it said that no unsigned kernel code can ever run.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  It works fine if /boot is unencrypted. You can encrypt the rest of / and it's fine.
  - jeppesen-io 5y ago
    Ditto running encrypted root without any issue
  - xvector 5y ago
    Doesn't running /boot without encryption open up a class of attacks?
mehmetoguzderin 5y ago
This setup sounds like a near-dream with that 3:2 display. The aspect ratio is one of my main drivers to use iPad 12.9 for doing things. But of course, it is always a double-edged sword with how well the split-screen looks with various apps on crammed display, etc., which makes this setup extra interesting because the freedom to adjust through software is much more here.
temptemptemp111 5y ago
So you can repair the laptop yourself, and you can also repair your packages yourself (cuz you'll need to)!
k1rcher 5y ago
My Framework DIY just arrived this morning. I finished the build and installation of PopOS about an hour ago, but now I’m contemplating trying out NixOS due to this blog post. Looks amazing!
- reginold 5y ago
  Oo how's Pop OS?
  - k1rcher 5y ago
    So far, incredible! Still setting up my environment, but as far as how it’s running on the Framework, I 100% see myself fully transitioning to it from my MacBook. Desktop wise, I’ve been using PopOS for 7-8 months now, so it’s quite great to have that same setup in a portable fashion now.
    - raihansaputra 5y ago
      How do you deal with the transitiob from MacOS to PopOs? I'm trying to do it, but discouraged from all the small annoying things: - changing default shortcuts from CMD to CTRL. Is swapping the positions enough? - Janky scrolling/no inertia ( i'm not on a framework (hp x360 spectre), is the framework better? - all the small tuning software i have (Karabiner for remapping, Amethyst for tiling, BitBar etc) - is there a quick look equivalent on PopOs?
      - keawade 5y ago
        Check out kinto.sh for the ctrl/cmd remapping. PopOS has a decent tiling manager built in now. (Icon in top right corner by default) though I should note it isn’t as “hardcore” as classic tiling managers and is instead built primarily for approachability over pure power. Not exactly sure what you mean but quick look. If you mean spotlight, PopOS has a (imo better) equivalent bound by default to the Super key. If you mean the applications overview, they have that as well by default on a button in the top left of screen. Can also be bound to a shortcut.
iechoz6H 5y ago
> Prepare for a long read Took about 6 minutes, is that long nowadays?
- kvark 5y ago
  I'll remove this line. Appeared to be shorter than I expected. Estimates, d'oh.
Yuioup 5y ago
I take it the big vendors (HP, Dell, etc) are now going to start adopting Framework's business model? If not the obviously somebody's gonna try and buy them for billions.
- nrp 5y ago
  We hope to see others come along, but it’s not easy to transform a large business built around a replacement cycle into one centered on longevity. There are at least encouraging signs of some OEM’s becoming less anti-repair, like Microsoft’s recent announcement.
- viraptor 5y ago
  Why would they? Most people will still buy a generic laptop. Fairphone released version 4 already and it's not like Samsung, Apple, Motorola, and others got even close to that level of repairability.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Fairphone isn't even for sale in America.
gigatexal 5y ago
Super weird about the realtek Ethernet issues. Linux’s support for Realtek is pretty good I thought.
- zepearl 5y ago
  Ach, the usual stuff about NICs being re-re-re-created, incredibly annoying. I thought the same - then I bought in September 2021 a "Lenovo Ideapad 5 Pro 16ACH6" which is when I found out that the "Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. Device 8852"/"Realtek RTL8111E Ethernet LOM"/"Lenovo Device 4852" needs a brand new driver/module, respectively is not compatible with anything else. I lost a lot of hair until I found "https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89.git https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89.git" (thaaanks a lot!!!) which made it work (reliable in my case, even with notebook "suspend-to-RAM"). As of kernel 5.14.5 (on Gentoo) embedded support for that NIC is not available, nor I think in 5.14.12 (not 100% sure - I did not install it, just peeked into it) :(((
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    Wow that sucks. Kudos to the dev that maintains that driver. I wonder if they ever tried to upstream it?
    - zepearl 5y ago
      Something is or was happening? This is what I've found: https://lwn.net/ml/linux-wireless/f1caa1a2-55c7-a69f-070a-a49b345e4550@canonical.com/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-wireless/f1caa1a2-55c7-a69f-070a-a4...
jeppesen-io 5y ago
tangential; are there plans for `fwupd` support for Framework? I love my LG Gram 17" but `fwupd` support might make me consider Framework
- nrp 5y ago
  Yep, we are setting it up now for an upcoming firmware update!
  - jeppesen-io 5y ago
    fantastic! Thank you!
hexo 5y ago
I don't get whats up with that "deep sleep", like there was S3 suspend for ages - did anything happen to it? Why can't you just suspend it and call it a day?
- pxeb00t 5y ago
  Newer Intel CPUs don't support S3 anymore. They now use something called S0ix which is apparently much more power hungry.
  - hexo 5y ago
    Removing the main and most important feature on a laptop is surely a good-move. What about AMD?
    - ayushnix 5y ago
      > What about AMD? Good news, suspend resume has been broken on my AMD ThinkPad, at least for me, since kernel version 5.10 came out although it didn't really work reliably before either. Whenever, I dare enter systemctl suspend, my screen goes blank, fans start spinning at the highest speed. A hard reboot is needed at that point. The journal is filled with these error messages. [drm:amdgpu_ib_ring_tests [amdgpu]] ERROR IB test failed on gfx (-22) EDIT: Looks the author of the blog post isn't able to do suspend resume on his AMD ThinkPad T495 either, which is good news.
  - flatiron 5y ago
    That’s because it is more like a cellphone sleep. Keeps the wifi on. Can get push messages etc.
SkyMarshal 5y ago
> I only wish the up/down arrow buttons were normal size, like on Thinkpads. Funny, I much prefer a full-size Right-Shift key, which usually requires compact up/down arrow keys. I hate typing on keyboards with tiny, stunted little right-shift keys. I use Right-Shift much more than the arrow keys.
- hexo 5y ago
  My right shift key on thinkpad is full size and i've got full size up/down arrow buttons too (on a 12.5 inch laptop). So it definitely is doable and there is no need for tradeoffs.
  - samueldr 5y ago
    I can't say for your particular model, since you didn't list it, but there is generally a trade-off: the arrow keys make the keyboard area larger and less "squared" (rectangled) as they will protrude from the bottom of the keyboard. This, in turn, is a trade-off for manufacturing. It will increase the cost of everything slightly. The keyboard unit itself as it will be larger, maye be harder to produce. Machining or producing the chassis now requires accounting for an additional cut. This is all solvable, yes. Though it is harder for smaller scale productions. It is likely they are working with vendors that, themselves, only have "entirely rectangular" keyboards as this is what the market ends up wanting for cost reasons.
- exdsq 5y ago
  I don’t remember the last time I used the right shift key! I must use it sometimes, I just can’t think when
  - rgoulter 5y ago
    Yeah, I believe ideally, you'd use the right-hand modifiers when pressing keys on the left hand side, and vice versa. I think the asymmetric, row-staggered layout that keyboards have discourages this. Though, a fancy technique many keyboard-enthusiasts will use is to have dual-use keys. e.g. Tap-Hold dual use. The key acts the same when tapped, but acts as a modifier key when held. e.g. changing Capslock key to escape when tapped, Ctrl when held is probably the easiest to think of. The best use of tap-hold is for Home-Row modifiers. Putting alt/command/ctrl/shift as modifiers of asdf (and symmetrically, jkl;).
yellow_lead 5y ago
> Apparently, KDE Plasma5 does the scaling right. Setting it to 150% gives pleasuring look. Overall, I find KDE’s approach with a taskbar much more reasonable than what Gnome forces on me. It’s the paradigm shift from “tell me what you need” (modern Gnome, also Google) to “show me what you have” (KDE and others application menu, also your file manager). I like this aside and I noticed the same when I tried to use Gnome a couple of years ago. I asked a coworker what he recommended, he showed me KDE and I've never looked back. The scaling was great too when I needed it for my MBP's retina display.
- m0zg 5y ago
  Protip for Ubuntu on HiDPI displays. Set the screen to 100% (everything will be tiny), then go into "Universal Access" and enable "Large Text", and also increase the size of the mouse pointer while you're at it. Adjust terminal font sizes to taste, and set the browser to 125-150% scaling by default. That's how I run Ubuntu on HiDPI screens. Looks great.
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Does this also adjust icon sizes in apps' toolbars?
    - ayushnix 5y ago
      No, increasing just the font size is a hack. Unless you only use the terminal, doing this means not using GUI apps comfortably because icon size will not scale. Even if you somehow do make them scale, that increased font size and is limited to the screen you're working on. If you ever attach an external monitor to your laptop, it won't look right on that. Avoid doing this unless you have no choice.
      - m0zg 5y ago
        Works well on external 4K monitors also. And yes, the icons do not increase in size, but they still look OK. Certainly better than fractionally scaled icons. There's no downside to trying this - it's literally a single slider that you can slide back if you don't like what it does.
spamizbad 5y ago
Currently using my Framework laptop with Arch Linux. Was able to get everything working, including Bluetooth. Even got the battery life tamed. So far, my favorite laptop since the Thinkpad T42 I had back in the day (other laptops I’ve owned: 2013 MB Air, Dell XPS 15 9550, and a 2018 MBP)
- _4fwd 5y ago
  What's the secret on battery life?
  - pxc 5y ago
    One thing that helps a lot is mimicking macOS' suspend-then-hibernate behavior
  - jonfw 5y ago
    The archwiki has a ton of interesting content on optimizing battery life on linux- https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Even if you're not running arch, the archwiki is an amazing source of information
    - spamizbad 5y ago
      Yep, those are the guides I loosely followed.
- v8z7CD3ts5wFq8 5y ago
  How’s the trackpad? How does it compare to a MacBook? I can’t find a non apple laptop that comes even close in terms of high sensitivity, yet amazing palm typing reject, and multi finger gestures that work in almost every context.
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    To me, Macbooks have the worst trackpad 'feel' so hopefully it's nothing like that.
robertwt7 5y ago
For all framework laptop owners, I'm considering to buy this for myself this christmas. My previous laptop I owned are mostly MBP, laptop from work is mbp, and my own gaming PC. 1 of the reason why I like MBP is the sturdiness and build quality, but i'm ready to go on diy stuff and leave apple for my next laptop. I was watching Dave2D video but when I saw the spring of the hinge when opening the laptop and the flex on the screen, it kind a scares me. How does it go for all of you? How's the build quality? also how's the track pad compared to mbp? I don't want to own a laptop where opening the screen with 1 hand feels like it's going to break it. Kind a feels like dell inspiron all over again
- cephalization 5y ago
  It definitely does not support 1 hand lid operation. Despite the quality not being as high as a macbook pro (I've owned several for comparison) it absolutely does not feel cheap. In cases where you may damage the device, part of the beauty is that all of the parts are sold by Framework and come with replacement guides and any tools you may need (usually just the included screwdriver).
  - hamburglar 5y ago
    It’s funny how such a little thing like one-handed lid opening can add up to such a big factor in user experience. I have used MBPs for years and recently switched my personal machine to a yoga c740, which has … ok build quality but not great. One handed opening is hampered in two ways: first, the front of the machine is beveled in a way that makes it impossible to get your finger between the top and the bottom, which is infuriating. The framework has a notch for this, so it doesn’t seem to have this particular problem. The second is the obvious one, which is that the friction from the hinge is large enough to defeat gravity because the base isn’t heavy enough. I’d welcome a heavier base to overcome this, since it will also allow the case to be stiffer. I feel like a total idiot at least a couple times a week while I’m holding my phone in one hand, saying “hang on, let me check” and doing weird contortions to get my laptop open with one hand using my belly to hold the bottom down.
  - celrod 5y ago
drusepth 5y ago
Anyone know if they're planning on having a keyboard available that uses full-size up/down keys? (Or, if framework laptops are built such that you could easily swap out the keyboard in the future if they do?) This looks super interesting for a long-term laptop, but small arrow keys bring me so much day-to-day anguish I wouldn't want to suffer through them long-term.
- OJFord 5y ago
  In re the latter, yes, they list a load of variations (most 'coming soon') of ANSI/ISO and regional keycaps on the site, and AIUI they're all compatible. Of course, Framework doesn't want to have to manufacture different chassis or whatever for them either, so it's believable and makes sense. (And I'm sure it's true on some level for competitors, even Apple - surely it's basically compatible and swappable, they just don't sell them.)
solarkraft 5y ago
Is Framework already too big to fail with all this momentum? I really hope so. It's essentially the new Thinkpad.
- wmf 5y ago
  They're still very small; for example they're doing batch production instead of continuous.
- commoner 5y ago
  I'd hesitate to call Framework the new ThinkPad until it adopts the ThinkPad's defining feature, the TrackPoint. There's a ton of interest, just hoping that it could happen in some form: https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026
Waterluvian 5y ago
Apologies I’m a bit late to the Framework conversation: Are third parties able to make replacement parts and dongles with Framework’s blessing? Or are they trying to lock in the parts market?
- nrp 5y ago
  We launched an Expansion Card Developer Program this summer as a first step at enabling third parties: https://frame.work/blog/expansion-card-developer-program--canada-launch https://frame.work/blog/expansion-card-developer-program--ca...
- EthanHarv 5y ago
  Yep, Framework (as far as I remember) intends to even create a public marketplace for people to sell custom-made addon cards. They have the dimensions on their github and make it pretty easy.
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Hopefully not exclusively on their marketplace?
    - fartcannon 5y ago
      Uh oh.
  - shp0ngle 5y ago
    They already launched the marketplace, and … it’s just e-shop of their own cards.
    - cl3misch 5y ago
      Maybe because there aren't any mature alternatives yet?
- md8z 5y ago
  The "expansion port" appears to be a sunken USB-C port that you can plug any old USB-C cable into.
Taek 5y ago
Has anyone got Qubes working on the Framework Laptop?
up6w6 5y ago
I hope they have success creating an open-source community around the hardware, the other comparable ecosystems like Purism or Pinebook have a very specific public with much less "consumer-friendly" hardware that will never even offer a Windows version. It would be really cool to see people with Windows Framework easily finding a tutorial to migrate to Arch linux (in contrast to searching for a specific driver of the XPS model xyz). PS: waiting for shipment to Brazil (and maybe a 15'' model)
D7x7w9pHnT 5y ago
Super cool! I've seen comments about eventually being able to get a keyboard with full arrow keys, but will they ever ship a keyboard with a trackpoint/pointing stick? Or is that patented by Lenovo?
zquestz 5y ago
So, randomly I come across this right after I setup my Framework laptop for Arch. Funny thing is, I also transitioned from a 1st gen X1 Extreme. Cool to see you getting NixOS running, Arch on the Framework has worked flawlessly. So much nicer than the X1.
justinkempton 5y ago
A few days ago I received my DIY Framework laptop as well. I also have a MBP 15" circa 2018. The keyboard issues on the MBP was my primary gripe with Apple, also reading the 55 steps needed to replace the battery according to ifixit guide. I first discovered frame.work on hacker news, watched a ton of youtube videos and got all jazed up and bought one, then waited for it to ship (about a month since they do it in batches). I actually never had been this excited about a product as this, and would read up on their site daily, to prepare. Anyway, it arrived, and I assembled my first laptop! The hardest part was hooking up the wifi, but with a little thinking it worked. Took about 10 mintues, with kids running around the background. Having a month to ponder all of the flavors of linux, I was initially jazed about NixOS as well. I'm not a daily linux user and reading through the documentation was discouraging. There doesn't seem to be a simple way to install it that I have discovered. Eventually I discovered Fedora Silverblue which has the same concept of an immutable OS. I still want to try NixOS, but I will need help with that. Another nice thing about these devices, you are free to install whatever you want on them, unlike Apple which locks it down. The Fedora Silverblue installation was about 4 minutes, minimal decisions to make. So that is what I ended up with. At first I tried version 34. This did not work immediately with the WiFi, and that had me concerned (what if I didn't hook it up right?). LOL. So, I tried the RAWHIDE release (which will be version 35). Mostly I did this to see if the wifi worked and it did! After playing around with it, I started getting used to it. It works with wifi, the fingerprint reader (great), bluetooth, trackpad (see comments below). Build Quality. The Framework build quality is excellent. It's much lighter than the MBP, and I think the reason for feeling a bit more 'flexible' ie bendable is the lack of glue. I think the glue also helps the accoustics. The speakers are definately a disapointment compared to the MBP. That said, I would trade ability to swap out battery for feeling more solid. Maybe this can be improved, but to me it's not a huge issue. Trackpad. I am not entirely used to linux, so at first I didn't know what was a hardware or what was a software issue. The two finger scrolling works, as does three finger navigation, but scrolling on the browser sucks. Two issues, acceleration is a little wonky (no rubber band feel), and scrollbars are always visible. The claim is that wayland does not have some universal scrolling system but relies on each application to implement it. Firefox, chrome, Ungoogled Chromium all seem to act the same. Some of this might be Fedora 35 which is still being developed. That being said, I've tried recent windows machines this experience is better than that. I think the MBP does have a smoother experience here, but this is usuable for sure. I am now starting to get used to the linux experience (gnome). I like the screen, wish it was a bit bigger, but certainly usuable. I have yet to get a second or third monitor working on here.
ltbarcly3 5y ago
"LUKS and Nvidia driver not compatible" I've used Nvidia binary drivers with LUKS full disk encryption for years, on laptops and on desktops, and it's just fine. I can't even think of a possible way they would interact. The framework laptop looks interesting, but there are so many misunderstandings or inaccuracies in this writeup that I personally do not trust the benchmarks or other details to be accurate.
zfnmxt 5y ago
> X1 took 120s, so 4.5x slower… totally unexpected Your numbers are clearly suspicious. Did you ever take measures to circumvent the CPU throttling bug under Linux on your X1E? See [1]. Also, regarding your battery comments, when my X1E G1 was new I got great battery life, around 7-8 hours. I still get 5ish. > requires LUKS full-disk encryption, and having it setup conflicted with NVidia’s proprietary driver. This just seems bizarre and hard to believe to me; once mounted your LUKS drive is no different (to software) than any other block device. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Extreme#CPU_thermal_throttling https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Extreme#...
- cl3misch 5y ago
  Regarding the LUKS encryption, he is likely talking about an encrypted /boot partition and using SecureBoot.
  - BatteryMountain 5y ago
    Was about to say something about the encrypting /boot. I always leave mine unencrypted but everything else gets encrypted.
  - Apofis 5y ago
    Why in the world wouldn't Framework use CoreBoot? Very strange.
gorgoiler 5y ago
Laptops have become a portable form-factor KVM for me. Unfortunately I do not have a good solution to the form factor part. The introduction to this article, regarding the four different hardware forms, was pretty interesting.
trosi 5y ago
Can't wait till I'm able to buy a Framework laptop from Europe. I even checked on eBay US (which offers customs services for international shipping) but prices are too high at the moment
mosermint 5y ago
Perhaps a dumb question, but why are NixOs and Guix configured using a programming language and not with a configuration file?
- hedshodd 5y ago
  The "neat" thing about a config like that is to use incredibly basic programming things, like simply having variables, lists/arrays, arithmetic, string manipulation, etc.. As a basic example, I could have a list of basic packages that I want on all of my machines, and then depending on which machine my config is being deployed to, I might extend or shrink that list using actual code, because that list is represented as a an array or a linked list and I can directly manipulate that (though, at least in Nix I think everything's immutable, so you would technically only use that initial list to create a new list from it).
mekster 5y ago
Why not just spin up an adhoc build server on demand and use whatever laptop you want to? I don't know about the compilation procedure but how hard is it to spin up a beefy CPU intensive server ($300/mo = $0.2 per 30 min use), let it git pull your work, compile, upload the binary to some storage, notify you and shut down automatically? This way, you can close your laptop and move while compiling. Much cheaper than not being able to choose the laptop you want the most. These days, you can be a bit more creative than do it all on your machine.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >but how hard is it to spin up a beefy CPU intensive server ($300/mo = $0.2 per 30 min use), let it git pull your work, compile, upload the binary to some storage, notify you and shut down automatically? Related famous last words: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
  - mekster 5y ago
    How is it related? I'm not dismissing some business idea but merely providing an idea to make personal computing easier and I'm not giving lazy-to-accomplish idea?
    - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
      Because some people want to just open their laptop and do everything locally for whatever reason, not be dependent on an internet connection and managing cloud clusters and related expenses.
      - mekster 5y ago
        The author is a programmer for sake. Writing a little script sounded worthwhile. Also, what expense? $0.2 per compile instead of buying a laptop with better CPU?
mickotron 5y ago
Ahh,I see you're a person of culture. Solus Budgie as OS is a good choice.
jade413 5y ago
Just noting I run an AX210 on my T440p. Bluetooth and wifi both work starting with kernel version 5.12 in my experience. I had it pinned to a specific version rather than latest like boot.kernelPackages = pkgs.linuxPackages_5_12; but slowly 5.12 and 5.13 were both removed as specific kernel versions in nixpkgs, so it's boot.kernelPackages = pkgs.linuxPackages_5_14; now which still works. I eventually plan to just remove the line and use the default kernel, once the default kernel is bumped up to 5.12

358 points by kvark 5y ago

jph 5y ago

Framework + NixOS is the most exciting hardware + OS going IMHO. If someone wants to do a crowdfunding or devpay or similar to make them work out of the box together, I will gladly donate or pay.

fungiblecog 5y ago
+1
whateveracct 5y ago
import framework.nix {}
- joppy 5y ago
  The post itself shows that it is non-trivial to even boot this hardware with Nix.
  - whateveracct 5y ago
    yes I know - I am implying a future where they Just Work and we do the hard work of building needed abstractions my code is possible if people want it :) the real value of NixOS is hardware and OS config can be turned into libraries!
  - prophesi 5y ago
    The only issues were needing to disable secure boot (which is usually a required step on laptops preinstalled with Windows anyways), and using a recent Linux kernel that has the required WiFi driver. Which the tutorial linked in the post mentions. And then Linux in general is notorious for having issues with USB WiFi adapters. More info on that can be found here https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi
b9be520d93286 5y ago
Can you do NixOS without systemd? If not, I'd look elsewhere for the distro. Maybe Guix?
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  Just take the time to learn systemd. Once you do, like nix, it saves so much time
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    Yeah no point in fighting it. It’s the standard. Learn to love SystemD.
  - rollcat 5y ago
    systemd is so complex, I've come to a conclusion, that it no longer fits my definition of free software. We allow runaway complexity to obscure the inner workings of an important software package, to the point, where having source access no longer makes a practical difference to a "casual" power-user or even a software engineer. I can source-dive runit, s6, OpenBSD's rc, or OpenRC and within a weekend, have a pretty OK understanding, fix a bug, or add a feature. Having software as complex as systemd taking so many roles, and making itself so ubiquitous and irreplaceable, makes me feel that I no longer have any control or understanding of my system, bugs or misfeatures just become things you live with, or you riddle yourself with arcane workarounds. Portability suffers, monoculture takes root. I've lost faith in "mainstream" Linux distros. I use macOS and OpenBSD for workstations, and Alpine where I need e.g. Docker. It must either be simple enough to understand, or provide enough utility/convenience that the lack of (practical) source access is compensated. systemd fits neither category.
    - candiddevmike 5y ago
      Yes, systemd has a ton of surface area and options. Yes, the man pages are long. No, you don't need to read them--the beauty of systemd is you control how much of the complexity you use. Unit files can be 10 lines or 30. Most of the extra options are for security and hardening, when you need them you'll be glad they're easy to turn on. For the other components, I think have a stable, familiar, and consistent set of core services (boot, ntp, logging, networking) is glorious
jeppesen-io 5y ago
It's not what you're asking but I wonder if NixOS's hardware repo could expand to support Framework with some good defaults That being said, I think there could be a good use case for "meta" NixOS distributions. I'm working on such a thing for a NixOS based RetroArch type thing. But could see a PopOS like configuration, focused on on an “out the box experience” https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware
- samueldr 5y ago
  Yes. Anyone with the hardware is welcome to contribute to nixos-hardware! Even "no-op empty configs" are good imo as they show "there's no magic sauce needed".
  - jeppesen-io 5y ago
    good to know; didn't think about "empty" configs
- emiller88 5y ago
  https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 Created an issue for this for anyone interested!
georgewsinger 5y ago
Possibly of interest: SimulaVR (www.simulavr.com) is about to release a crowdfunding campaign for a portable Linux VR headset which will run NixOS stock under the hood (basically NixOS + Simula's window manager).
tomjen3 5y ago
I don't really see them as exciting when they are still Intel only. As far as I am aware you can't upgrade the CPU, much less upgrade it to AMD. I plan on keeping my M1 for a 2-3 more years, then we will have to see what Framework has come up with then. I like them a lot in principle (peripherals that can be switched to what I need? Yes please. Upgradable RAM? thanks), but I also won't compromise on battery time, performance or "linux works outside the box". Battery time could have been an easy fix if they had made it so I could switch the battery without taking the laptop apart.
globular-toast 5y ago
Replace NixOS with Guix and I agree!
- phaer 5y ago
  I'd love to see Guix with SystemD, but there's no work going in that direction that I am aware of. While I appreciate the work on [GNU Shepherd](https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html), especially their documentation quality and the use of scheme instead of the rather obscure nix language, learning yet another init system on top of a new distro while systemd seemingly has won most of the market makes NixOS more attractive. At least to me
  - mbakke 5y ago
    Even if Guix were to switch to systemd (it won't), end users would primarily be interacting with services through the same high-level APIs as now. https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services That is, the only difference in practice would be replacing 'herd' with 'systemctl' when stopping and starting services manually. Anything else, such as modifying a service, has to go through the configuration system. Similarly, for service authors, whether the API you design ends up creating a systemd unit file or shepherd service object is an implementation detail and would be mostly transparent.

hyperstar 5y ago

is it possible to install coreboot or libreboot on this thing? does it have something equivalent to the intel management engine?

rnhmjoj 5y ago
No, they're using a proprietary BIOS and firmware for the embedded controller. The hardware is all Intel and of course it has a management engine[1], even all the nasty vPro "features". From the software freedom point of view it's very much a no go, although they are apparently going to release the firmware sources and looking into coreboot[2]. [1]: https://community.frame.work/t/does-intel-chip-have-intels-management-engine/1260/4 https://community.frame.work/t/does-intel-chip-have-intels-m... [2]: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...
- nrp 5y ago
  This is a good spot to mention that we’re hiring a Firmware Engineer, and we’d love to bring someone on who has coreboot experience: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/af82bd1b-7ebd-46da-8ae4-7dab700496d7 https://jobs.lever.co/framework/af82bd1b-7ebd-46da-8ae4-7dab...
  - panick21 5y ago
    Maybe work together with system76, they have tons of experience with this and they have lots of software that you might be able to use that is already open source.
  - hyperstar 5y ago
    good! i'll buy one when i can know it won't spy on me. and might i suggest (if you don't have this already) a physical off-switch, not just for the mic and cam, but also for wifi and bluetooth.

rjeli 5y ago

Nice. Framework is super exciting, but I hope they release more cad files for the laptop so third parties can make e.g. keyboards and motherboards. Would be a bummer if their business model is lock-in on everything but the expansion cards. I’d love to put an underpowered qcom or nxp arm64 chip in and get insane battery life, but that doesn’t seem likely for a while since it needs 4x usb4 :/. Even the Xavier nx SoM only has 1x4 lane pcie..

lunixbochs 5y ago
Seems to me like you could power some of the ports with a hub/switch if you're willing to restrict which ports accept advanced peripherals. You could even use a PCIe switch to get more Thunderbolt.
- buildbot 5y ago
  Yeah the trick would be thunderbolt more than anything, USB-C out to all four ports would be easy enough with a hub?
  - rjeli 5y ago
    yeah, it just feels rude to bifurcate the ecosystem and confuse everyone about the amount of i/o available
    - lunixbochs 5y ago
      I think you could do it in such a way that you only restrict the ports available for alternate mode display output, and everything else still works. I don't think it's rude. It's about choice, just make sure it's clear to the users what sort of peripherals they should expect to work. That said I think it would be almost more fun to put the arm computer into the USB C module.
nrp 5y ago
We started with Expansion Cards because they are they simplest both for us to release a documentation package around and for a third party to develop. We will be expanding out from there though.

claytonjy 5y ago

As a framework owner, this is nice to see. I have yet to take the plunge on Nix (been happy with PopOS on mine), and wouldn't without Bluetooth support, but it's good to know it's possible and relatively painless. I'm hoping to start with nix+home-manager at some point, maybe on top of PopOS; anyone have experience with that setup?

ptaken 5y ago
Nix + home-manager is how I started on arch. After moving about 80% of my Pacman-installed packages over to nix-configured packages bit by bit over weeks and after that all of my dotfiles I plunged into nixos. Transition was super smooth, can only recommend!
- ayushnix 5y ago
  Can I install packages not present in the official NixOS repositories without learning the Nix DSL?
  - soraminazuki 5y ago
    You can, if your repository of choice provides a Nix channel[1]. However, the community effort is currently concentrated in the official Nixpkgs repository. So while there are numerous projects based on Nix run outside of the NixOS organization, there aren't any "major" unofficial package repository that I'm aware of. For packaging work, people just tend to contribute directly to the official repository. In fact, the volume of PRs in the official repository is so high I'm surprised at how they manage to keep going in spite of that. It's also worth noting that many of the benefits of Nix are directly driven from being able to write custom Nix expressions. So if you want to reap all of its benefits, it's definitely worth learning. The core language is small and the experience is not so far off from writing JSON, so that part is relatively easy to pick up. The actual work lies in learning how packaging is done in Nixpkgs. This is best done by grepping around the Nixpkgs repository for examples. Nixpkgs' policy of having all packages in a single repository really shines here. [1]: https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_channels https://nixos.wiki/wiki/Nix_channels

orf 5y ago

> Mozilla requires LUKS full-disk encryption, and having it setup conflicted with NVidia’s proprietary driver I’ve seen this warning in the Ubuntu docs. Can someone explain exactly why a GPU driver would cause issues with disk encryption and UEFI boot?

remexre 5y ago
I conjecture the securely booted kernel won't load unsigned modules, and out-of-tree drivers don't get signed when the kernel and its modules do.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  You can work around this[1]. [1] https://askubuntu.com/questions/1023036/how-to-install-nvidia-driver-with-secure-boot-enabled/1049479#1049479 https://askubuntu.com/questions/1023036/how-to-install-nvidi...
- josephcsible 5y ago
  I wish people understood the Secure Boot spec better. This problem is totally unnecessary. The spec says no unsigned code can run until ExitBootServices is called, but people treat it as if it said that no unsigned kernel code can ever run.
LeoPanthera 5y ago
It works fine if /boot is unencrypted. You can encrypt the rest of / and it's fine.
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  Ditto running encrypted root without any issue
- xvector 5y ago
  Doesn't running /boot without encryption open up a class of attacks?

mehmetoguzderin 5y ago

This setup sounds like a near-dream with that 3:2 display. The aspect ratio is one of my main drivers to use iPad 12.9 for doing things. But of course, it is always a double-edged sword with how well the split-screen looks with various apps on crammed display, etc., which makes this setup extra interesting because the freedom to adjust through software is much more here.

temptemptemp111 5y ago

So you can repair the laptop yourself, and you can also repair your packages yourself (cuz you'll need to)!

k1rcher 5y ago

My Framework DIY just arrived this morning. I finished the build and installation of PopOS about an hour ago, but now I’m contemplating trying out NixOS due to this blog post. Looks amazing!

reginold 5y ago
Oo how's Pop OS?
- k1rcher 5y ago
  So far, incredible! Still setting up my environment, but as far as how it’s running on the Framework, I 100% see myself fully transitioning to it from my MacBook. Desktop wise, I’ve been using PopOS for 7-8 months now, so it’s quite great to have that same setup in a portable fashion now.
  - raihansaputra 5y ago
    How do you deal with the transitiob from MacOS to PopOs? I'm trying to do it, but discouraged from all the small annoying things: - changing default shortcuts from CMD to CTRL. Is swapping the positions enough? - Janky scrolling/no inertia ( i'm not on a framework (hp x360 spectre), is the framework better? - all the small tuning software i have (Karabiner for remapping, Amethyst for tiling, BitBar etc) - is there a quick look equivalent on PopOs?
    - keawade 5y ago
      Check out kinto.sh for the ctrl/cmd remapping. PopOS has a decent tiling manager built in now. (Icon in top right corner by default) though I should note it isn’t as “hardcore” as classic tiling managers and is instead built primarily for approachability over pure power. Not exactly sure what you mean but quick look. If you mean spotlight, PopOS has a (imo better) equivalent bound by default to the Super key. If you mean the applications overview, they have that as well by default on a button in the top left of screen. Can also be bound to a shortcut.

iechoz6H 5y ago

> Prepare for a long read Took about 6 minutes, is that long nowadays?

kvark 5y ago
I'll remove this line. Appeared to be shorter than I expected. Estimates, d'oh.

Yuioup 5y ago

I take it the big vendors (HP, Dell, etc) are now going to start adopting Framework's business model? If not the obviously somebody's gonna try and buy them for billions.

nrp 5y ago
We hope to see others come along, but it’s not easy to transform a large business built around a replacement cycle into one centered on longevity. There are at least encouraging signs of some OEM’s becoming less anti-repair, like Microsoft’s recent announcement.
viraptor 5y ago
Why would they? Most people will still buy a generic laptop. Fairphone released version 4 already and it's not like Samsung, Apple, Motorola, and others got even close to that level of repairability.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Fairphone isn't even for sale in America.

gigatexal 5y ago

Super weird about the realtek Ethernet issues. Linux’s support for Realtek is pretty good I thought.

zepearl 5y ago
Ach, the usual stuff about NICs being re-re-re-created, incredibly annoying. I thought the same - then I bought in September 2021 a "Lenovo Ideapad 5 Pro 16ACH6" which is when I found out that the "Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. Device 8852"/"Realtek RTL8111E Ethernet LOM"/"Lenovo Device 4852" needs a brand new driver/module, respectively is not compatible with anything else. I lost a lot of hair until I found "https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89.git https://github.com/lwfinger/rtw89.git" (thaaanks a lot!!!) which made it work (reliable in my case, even with notebook "suspend-to-RAM"). As of kernel 5.14.5 (on Gentoo) embedded support for that NIC is not available, nor I think in 5.14.12 (not 100% sure - I did not install it, just peeked into it) :(((
- gigatexal 5y ago
  Wow that sucks. Kudos to the dev that maintains that driver. I wonder if they ever tried to upstream it?
  - zepearl 5y ago
    Something is or was happening? This is what I've found: https://lwn.net/ml/linux-wireless/f1caa1a2-55c7-a69f-070a-a49b345e4550@canonical.com/ https://lwn.net/ml/linux-wireless/f1caa1a2-55c7-a69f-070a-a4...

jeppesen-io 5y ago

tangential; are there plans for `fwupd` support for Framework? I love my LG Gram 17" but `fwupd` support might make me consider Framework

nrp 5y ago
Yep, we are setting it up now for an upcoming firmware update!
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  fantastic! Thank you!

hexo 5y ago

I don't get whats up with that "deep sleep", like there was S3 suspend for ages - did anything happen to it? Why can't you just suspend it and call it a day?

pxeb00t 5y ago
Newer Intel CPUs don't support S3 anymore. They now use something called S0ix which is apparently much more power hungry.
- hexo 5y ago
  Removing the main and most important feature on a laptop is surely a good-move. What about AMD?
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    > What about AMD? Good news, suspend resume has been broken on my AMD ThinkPad, at least for me, since kernel version 5.10 came out although it didn't really work reliably before either. Whenever, I dare enter systemctl suspend, my screen goes blank, fans start spinning at the highest speed. A hard reboot is needed at that point. The journal is filled with these error messages. [drm:amdgpu_ib_ring_tests [amdgpu]] ERROR IB test failed on gfx (-22) EDIT: Looks the author of the blog post isn't able to do suspend resume on his AMD ThinkPad T495 either, which is good news.
- flatiron 5y ago
  That’s because it is more like a cellphone sleep. Keeps the wifi on. Can get push messages etc.

SkyMarshal 5y ago

> I only wish the up/down arrow buttons were normal size, like on Thinkpads. Funny, I much prefer a full-size Right-Shift key, which usually requires compact up/down arrow keys. I hate typing on keyboards with tiny, stunted little right-shift keys. I use Right-Shift much more than the arrow keys.

hexo 5y ago
My right shift key on thinkpad is full size and i've got full size up/down arrow buttons too (on a 12.5 inch laptop). So it definitely is doable and there is no need for tradeoffs.
- samueldr 5y ago
  I can't say for your particular model, since you didn't list it, but there is generally a trade-off: the arrow keys make the keyboard area larger and less "squared" (rectangled) as they will protrude from the bottom of the keyboard. This, in turn, is a trade-off for manufacturing. It will increase the cost of everything slightly. The keyboard unit itself as it will be larger, maye be harder to produce. Machining or producing the chassis now requires accounting for an additional cut. This is all solvable, yes. Though it is harder for smaller scale productions. It is likely they are working with vendors that, themselves, only have "entirely rectangular" keyboards as this is what the market ends up wanting for cost reasons.
exdsq 5y ago
I don’t remember the last time I used the right shift key! I must use it sometimes, I just can’t think when
- rgoulter 5y ago
  Yeah, I believe ideally, you'd use the right-hand modifiers when pressing keys on the left hand side, and vice versa. I think the asymmetric, row-staggered layout that keyboards have discourages this. Though, a fancy technique many keyboard-enthusiasts will use is to have dual-use keys. e.g. Tap-Hold dual use. The key acts the same when tapped, but acts as a modifier key when held. e.g. changing Capslock key to escape when tapped, Ctrl when held is probably the easiest to think of. The best use of tap-hold is for Home-Row modifiers. Putting alt/command/ctrl/shift as modifiers of asdf (and symmetrically, jkl;).

yellow_lead 5y ago

> Apparently, KDE Plasma5 does the scaling right. Setting it to 150% gives pleasuring look. Overall, I find KDE’s approach with a taskbar much more reasonable than what Gnome forces on me. It’s the paradigm shift from “tell me what you need” (modern Gnome, also Google) to “show me what you have” (KDE and others application menu, also your file manager). I like this aside and I noticed the same when I tried to use Gnome a couple of years ago. I asked a coworker what he recommended, he showed me KDE and I've never looked back. The scaling was great too when I needed it for my MBP's retina display.

m0zg 5y ago
Protip for Ubuntu on HiDPI displays. Set the screen to 100% (everything will be tiny), then go into "Universal Access" and enable "Large Text", and also increase the size of the mouse pointer while you're at it. Adjust terminal font sizes to taste, and set the browser to 125-150% scaling by default. That's how I run Ubuntu on HiDPI screens. Looks great.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Does this also adjust icon sizes in apps' toolbars?
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    No, increasing just the font size is a hack. Unless you only use the terminal, doing this means not using GUI apps comfortably because icon size will not scale. Even if you somehow do make them scale, that increased font size and is limited to the screen you're working on. If you ever attach an external monitor to your laptop, it won't look right on that. Avoid doing this unless you have no choice.
    - m0zg 5y ago
      Works well on external 4K monitors also. And yes, the icons do not increase in size, but they still look OK. Certainly better than fractionally scaled icons. There's no downside to trying this - it's literally a single slider that you can slide back if you don't like what it does.

spamizbad 5y ago

Currently using my Framework laptop with Arch Linux. Was able to get everything working, including Bluetooth. Even got the battery life tamed. So far, my favorite laptop since the Thinkpad T42 I had back in the day (other laptops I’ve owned: 2013 MB Air, Dell XPS 15 9550, and a 2018 MBP)

_4fwd 5y ago
What's the secret on battery life?
- pxc 5y ago
  One thing that helps a lot is mimicking macOS' suspend-then-hibernate behavior
- jonfw 5y ago
  The archwiki has a ton of interesting content on optimizing battery life on linux- https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/TLP https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management Even if you're not running arch, the archwiki is an amazing source of information
  - spamizbad 5y ago
    Yep, those are the guides I loosely followed.
v8z7CD3ts5wFq8 5y ago
How’s the trackpad? How does it compare to a MacBook? I can’t find a non apple laptop that comes even close in terms of high sensitivity, yet amazing palm typing reject, and multi finger gestures that work in almost every context.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  To me, Macbooks have the worst trackpad 'feel' so hopefully it's nothing like that.

robertwt7 5y ago

For all framework laptop owners, I'm considering to buy this for myself this christmas. My previous laptop I owned are mostly MBP, laptop from work is mbp, and my own gaming PC. 1 of the reason why I like MBP is the sturdiness and build quality, but i'm ready to go on diy stuff and leave apple for my next laptop. I was watching Dave2D video but when I saw the spring of the hinge when opening the laptop and the flex on the screen, it kind a scares me. How does it go for all of you? How's the build quality? also how's the track pad compared to mbp? I don't want to own a laptop where opening the screen with 1 hand feels like it's going to break it. Kind a feels like dell inspiron all over again

cephalization 5y ago
It definitely does not support 1 hand lid operation. Despite the quality not being as high as a macbook pro (I've owned several for comparison) it absolutely does not feel cheap. In cases where you may damage the device, part of the beauty is that all of the parts are sold by Framework and come with replacement guides and any tools you may need (usually just the included screwdriver).
- hamburglar 5y ago
  It’s funny how such a little thing like one-handed lid opening can add up to such a big factor in user experience. I have used MBPs for years and recently switched my personal machine to a yoga c740, which has … ok build quality but not great. One handed opening is hampered in two ways: first, the front of the machine is beveled in a way that makes it impossible to get your finger between the top and the bottom, which is infuriating. The framework has a notch for this, so it doesn’t seem to have this particular problem. The second is the obvious one, which is that the friction from the hinge is large enough to defeat gravity because the base isn’t heavy enough. I’d welcome a heavier base to overcome this, since it will also allow the case to be stiffer. I feel like a total idiot at least a couple times a week while I’m holding my phone in one hand, saying “hang on, let me check” and doing weird contortions to get my laptop open with one hand using my belly to hold the bottom down.
- celrod 5y ago

drusepth 5y ago

Anyone know if they're planning on having a keyboard available that uses full-size up/down keys? (Or, if framework laptops are built such that you could easily swap out the keyboard in the future if they do?) This looks super interesting for a long-term laptop, but small arrow keys bring me so much day-to-day anguish I wouldn't want to suffer through them long-term.

OJFord 5y ago
In re the latter, yes, they list a load of variations (most 'coming soon') of ANSI/ISO and regional keycaps on the site, and AIUI they're all compatible. Of course, Framework doesn't want to have to manufacture different chassis or whatever for them either, so it's believable and makes sense. (And I'm sure it's true on some level for competitors, even Apple - surely it's basically compatible and swappable, they just don't sell them.)

solarkraft 5y ago

Is Framework already too big to fail with all this momentum? I really hope so. It's essentially the new Thinkpad.

wmf 5y ago
They're still very small; for example they're doing batch production instead of continuous.
commoner 5y ago
I'd hesitate to call Framework the new ThinkPad until it adopts the ThinkPad's defining feature, the TrackPoint. There's a ton of interest, just hoping that it could happen in some form: https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026 https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026

Waterluvian 5y ago

Apologies I’m a bit late to the Framework conversation: Are third parties able to make replacement parts and dongles with Framework’s blessing? Or are they trying to lock in the parts market?

nrp 5y ago
We launched an Expansion Card Developer Program this summer as a first step at enabling third parties: https://frame.work/blog/expansion-card-developer-program--canada-launch https://frame.work/blog/expansion-card-developer-program--ca...
EthanHarv 5y ago
Yep, Framework (as far as I remember) intends to even create a public marketplace for people to sell custom-made addon cards. They have the dimensions on their github and make it pretty easy.
- fartcannon 5y ago
  Hopefully not exclusively on their marketplace?
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    Uh oh.
- shp0ngle 5y ago
  They already launched the marketplace, and … it’s just e-shop of their own cards.
  - cl3misch 5y ago
    Maybe because there aren't any mature alternatives yet?
md8z 5y ago
The "expansion port" appears to be a sunken USB-C port that you can plug any old USB-C cable into.

Taek 5y ago

Has anyone got Qubes working on the Framework Laptop?

up6w6 5y ago

I hope they have success creating an open-source community around the hardware, the other comparable ecosystems like Purism or Pinebook have a very specific public with much less "consumer-friendly" hardware that will never even offer a Windows version. It would be really cool to see people with Windows Framework easily finding a tutorial to migrate to Arch linux (in contrast to searching for a specific driver of the XPS model xyz). PS: waiting for shipment to Brazil (and maybe a 15'' model)

D7x7w9pHnT 5y ago

Super cool! I've seen comments about eventually being able to get a keyboard with full arrow keys, but will they ever ship a keyboard with a trackpoint/pointing stick? Or is that patented by Lenovo?

zquestz 5y ago

So, randomly I come across this right after I setup my Framework laptop for Arch. Funny thing is, I also transitioned from a 1st gen X1 Extreme. Cool to see you getting NixOS running, Arch on the Framework has worked flawlessly. So much nicer than the X1.

justinkempton 5y ago

A few days ago I received my DIY Framework laptop as well. I also have a MBP 15" circa 2018. The keyboard issues on the MBP was my primary gripe with Apple, also reading the 55 steps needed to replace the battery according to ifixit guide. I first discovered frame.work on hacker news, watched a ton of youtube videos and got all jazed up and bought one, then waited for it to ship (about a month since they do it in batches). I actually never had been this excited about a product as this, and would read up on their site daily, to prepare. Anyway, it arrived, and I assembled my first laptop! The hardest part was hooking up the wifi, but with a little thinking it worked. Took about 10 mintues, with kids running around the background. Having a month to ponder all of the flavors of linux, I was initially jazed about NixOS as well. I'm not a daily linux user and reading through the documentation was discouraging. There doesn't seem to be a simple way to install it that I have discovered. Eventually I discovered Fedora Silverblue which has the same concept of an immutable OS. I still want to try NixOS, but I will need help with that. Another nice thing about these devices, you are free to install whatever you want on them, unlike Apple which locks it down. The Fedora Silverblue installation was about 4 minutes, minimal decisions to make. So that is what I ended up with. At first I tried version 34. This did not work immediately with the WiFi, and that had me concerned (what if I didn't hook it up right?). LOL. So, I tried the RAWHIDE release (which will be version 35). Mostly I did this to see if the wifi worked and it did! After playing around with it, I started getting used to it. It works with wifi, the fingerprint reader (great), bluetooth, trackpad (see comments below). Build Quality. The Framework build quality is excellent. It's much lighter than the MBP, and I think the reason for feeling a bit more 'flexible' ie bendable is the lack of glue. I think the glue also helps the accoustics. The speakers are definately a disapointment compared to the MBP. That said, I would trade ability to swap out battery for feeling more solid. Maybe this can be improved, but to me it's not a huge issue. Trackpad. I am not entirely used to linux, so at first I didn't know what was a hardware or what was a software issue. The two finger scrolling works, as does three finger navigation, but scrolling on the browser sucks. Two issues, acceleration is a little wonky (no rubber band feel), and scrollbars are always visible. The claim is that wayland does not have some universal scrolling system but relies on each application to implement it. Firefox, chrome, Ungoogled Chromium all seem to act the same. Some of this might be Fedora 35 which is still being developed. That being said, I've tried recent windows machines this experience is better than that. I think the MBP does have a smoother experience here, but this is usuable for sure. I am now starting to get used to the linux experience (gnome). I like the screen, wish it was a bit bigger, but certainly usuable. I have yet to get a second or third monitor working on here.

ltbarcly3 5y ago

"LUKS and Nvidia driver not compatible" I've used Nvidia binary drivers with LUKS full disk encryption for years, on laptops and on desktops, and it's just fine. I can't even think of a possible way they would interact. The framework laptop looks interesting, but there are so many misunderstandings or inaccuracies in this writeup that I personally do not trust the benchmarks or other details to be accurate.

zfnmxt 5y ago

> X1 took 120s, so 4.5x slower… totally unexpected Your numbers are clearly suspicious. Did you ever take measures to circumvent the CPU throttling bug under Linux on your X1E? See [1]. Also, regarding your battery comments, when my X1E G1 was new I got great battery life, around 7-8 hours. I still get 5ish. > requires LUKS full-disk encryption, and having it setup conflicted with NVidia’s proprietary driver. This just seems bizarre and hard to believe to me; once mounted your LUKS drive is no different (to software) than any other block device. [1] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Extreme#CPU_thermal_throttling https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Extreme#...

cl3misch 5y ago
Regarding the LUKS encryption, he is likely talking about an encrypted /boot partition and using SecureBoot.
- BatteryMountain 5y ago
  Was about to say something about the encrypting /boot. I always leave mine unencrypted but everything else gets encrypted.
- Apofis 5y ago
  Why in the world wouldn't Framework use CoreBoot? Very strange.

gorgoiler 5y ago

Laptops have become a portable form-factor KVM for me. Unfortunately I do not have a good solution to the form factor part. The introduction to this article, regarding the four different hardware forms, was pretty interesting.

trosi 5y ago

Can't wait till I'm able to buy a Framework laptop from Europe. I even checked on eBay US (which offers customs services for international shipping) but prices are too high at the moment

mosermint 5y ago

Perhaps a dumb question, but why are NixOs and Guix configured using a programming language and not with a configuration file?

hedshodd 5y ago
The "neat" thing about a config like that is to use incredibly basic programming things, like simply having variables, lists/arrays, arithmetic, string manipulation, etc.. As a basic example, I could have a list of basic packages that I want on all of my machines, and then depending on which machine my config is being deployed to, I might extend or shrink that list using actual code, because that list is represented as a an array or a linked list and I can directly manipulate that (though, at least in Nix I think everything's immutable, so you would technically only use that initial list to create a new list from it).

mekster 5y ago

Why not just spin up an adhoc build server on demand and use whatever laptop you want to? I don't know about the compilation procedure but how hard is it to spin up a beefy CPU intensive server ($300/mo = $0.2 per 30 min use), let it git pull your work, compile, upload the binary to some storage, notify you and shut down automatically? This way, you can close your laptop and move while compiling. Much cheaper than not being able to choose the laptop you want the most. These days, you can be a bit more creative than do it all on your machine.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>but how hard is it to spin up a beefy CPU intensive server ($300/mo = $0.2 per 30 min use), let it git pull your work, compile, upload the binary to some storage, notify you and shut down automatically? Related famous last words: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224
- mekster 5y ago
  How is it related? I'm not dismissing some business idea but merely providing an idea to make personal computing easier and I'm not giving lazy-to-accomplish idea?
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Because some people want to just open their laptop and do everything locally for whatever reason, not be dependent on an internet connection and managing cloud clusters and related expenses.
    - mekster 5y ago
      The author is a programmer for sake. Writing a little script sounded worthwhile. Also, what expense? $0.2 per compile instead of buying a laptop with better CPU?

mickotron 5y ago

Ahh,I see you're a person of culture. Solus Budgie as OS is a good choice.

jade413 5y ago

Just noting I run an AX210 on my T440p. Bluetooth and wifi both work starting with kernel version 5.12 in my experience. I had it pinned to a specific version rather than latest like boot.kernelPackages = pkgs.linuxPackages_5_12; but slowly 5.12 and 5.13 were both removed as specific kernel versions in nixpkgs, so it's boot.kernelPackages = pkgs.linuxPackages_5_14; now which still works. I eventually plan to just remove the line and use the default kernel, once the default kernel is bumped up to 5.12