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Apple execs describe a “unique arrangement” with Netflix (2018)
- ramshanker 5y agoI am of the opinion that the whole "Reader apps" concept itself was brought in to selectively please big and important players. The ones whose absence would diminish the value of iPhone. Indie developer's can't be expected to get same treatment.
- kmeisthax 5y agoLuke LaFreniere has publicly stated that App Review basically refused to even entertain a Floatplane "reader app" for months, until they were able to appeal to someone who actually understood Apple's rules. They were getting absolutely nonsensical rejections that either didn't make sense or didn't account for the whole "reader app" thing.
- Ambroisie 5y agoWhat's a "reader app"?
- easton 5y agoAn app designed for getting a user's previously purchased content (i.e. the Kindle app). They are exempted from certain App Store guidelines around account management and in-app purchases. https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#reader-apps https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#rea...
- kristjansson 5y agoBorrow a million dollars from the bank, you have a problem. Borrow a billion dollars from the bank, you and the bank have a problem. Why should it be a surprise that a partner in a stronger negotiating position negotiates a better deal than is offered at the door?
- bikeshaving 5y agoIt’s amusing that this quote has inflated like most things today. Original quote was (“If you owe the bank $100 that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's the bank's problem.”)
- Osiris 5y agoThat seems to undermine their "everyone is treated equally" argument.
- 8ytecoder 5y agoThe same deal is available for everyone though. https://developer.apple.com/programs/video-partner/ https://developer.apple.com/programs/video-partner/
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- cma 5y agoThis is an example of the "special friend" technique harmful platforms make use of (slide 40): https://www.slideshare.net/danctheduck/gdc-2011-game-of-platform-power https://www.slideshare.net/danctheduck/gdc-2011-game-of-plat... "First you sign long-term contracts with certain influential developers"
- emsy 5y agoThe problem here are not the special deals, saurik commented he cut special deals in the Cydia store occasionally the last time this topic came up. The problem is that there is no alternative to Apple when it comes to publishing software and content on the iPhone and that makes these kind of deals unfair.
- netcan 5y agoThis is naive, IMO. Even if the app store was run differently, say allowing a competing way of installing apps, Apple still have plenty of fungible power to make such deals. You might have ticked a box to make it technically fair, for some definition of, but that would probably be just cosmetic. IE, app store would still represent most revenue and everyone is in the same position but a few geeks. The "platform game" establishes market power, where buyers and sellers need to go through you. They have no negotiating power, and you can price to make deals that take all the "surplus utility" off the table, in classic economic terms. So... reality isn't perfect and some players are big enough to negotiate. Netflix is that player here. They negotiate when they have to, but try to keep it quite. When the market is this structured, this is how it works.
- vorpalhex 5y agoAn alternative market would create pressure on Apple. If Netflix tells the App store to go screw themselves and lists on a different store, then the App Store gets that much less traffic and either has to compete or lose out.
- Jcowell 5y agoFrom a consumer point of view, this is terrible.
- fbelzile 5y agoNo, it increases choice and lowers costs for the consumer. If you see switching app stores a "cost" because it's less practical, you most likely would still be able to use your store of choice, but you might need to pay more. I don't see Netflix pulling out of the App Store if there alternatives. Right now, this is the only thing they can do to retaliate.
- echelon 5y agoSteve Jobs and Tim Cook are the iPhone Al Capone. There's no technical reason software needs to be distributed this way. It's only greed. I hope this mounting evidence leads to a single verdict from the DOJ: "no more app stores" for common computing devices. (Please don't rehash the video game console argument.)
- throwaway78981 5y agoFrom February this year - Apple App store is home to multi-million dollar scams. The method the guy used to find this is so childish it's a wonder how Apple could have missed. Also Apple employs some dark patterns if you wanna report scams. https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...
- badmadrad 5y agohow about instead of "no more app stores" you and others with your interest go make more app stores. more is better. if you have a good product you will gain the leverage you need.
- germinalphrase 5y agoYou don’t think the security/trust argument has any merit?
- oauea 5y agoI trust my own judgement, thank you very much. I don't need Big Daddy Apple making all my decisions for me. Also, that has absolutely nothing to do with banning third party payment processors for IAPs. That is just criminal, or well, it should be.
- nemothekid 5y ago>Also, that has absolutely nothing to do with banning third party payment processors for IAPs. That is just criminal, or well, it should be. I find this sentiment interesting vs the juxtaposition that Netflix wanted off of IAP because Apple makes it too easy to cancel your subscription. I've always viewed the current tension over the App Store not to be Apple vs. Users, but Apple vs. Scumbag Developers
- haunter 5y ago>Rep. Johnson: Does Apple treat every app and every developer the same? >Cook: “We treat every developer the same. We have open rules. It’s a rigorous process. Because we care about privacy and quality, we do look at every app before it goes on. We apply these rules equally to everyone.”
- leeoniya 5y ago"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
- smoldesu 5y ago"Privacy is a human right, but humanity has such a fickle definition these days."
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- aaaaaaaaaaab 5y agoWhat is the consequence of such a blatantly false testimony to Congress?
- apendleton 5y agoLying to Congress is a crime (distinct from perjury), but it's unusual for anyone to be tried for/convicted of it though. Michael Cohen, Trump's lawyer, is a (rare) recent example.
- throwawy8233qo 5y agoI know HBO Inc had the same 15% deal, at least back in 2018. I was on an email chain where some HBO execs mentioned this, and it was a revelation. As a vendor of iOS apps we hinted to other customers that the 30% cut is negotiable for providers strategic to Apple, without giving away HBO’s deal.
- mikeryan 5y agoThe Video Partner Program which takes 15% went into effect in 2016.
- djyaz1200 5y agoTech companies that reach monopoly scale (like Apple, Facebook, Amazon) should have to disclose all their agreements and honor a "Most Favored Nation" clause giving all companies the same pricing and access as the best negotiated agreement with any one company. This is the most reasonable way I can think of without breaking them up to prevent them picking winners and losers as new opportunities emerge. If you have a better plan I'd be glad to hear it.
- CPLX 5y agoWe could also just put a tax of 100% on any revenue in excess of $10bn a year and nip this entire society-destroying problem in the bud.
- smallerfish 5y agoIt's an interesting thought experiment at least. What would the hidden incentives of something like that be? For example, if a company wanted to keep growing, it would have to split organically into separate corporate entities. What would stop them establishing "favored" relationships with each other? Say for example Facebook splits out "Zuckerburg data centers inc" - what's to stop them pricing themselves above market to avoid taking on other customers, and then giving FB a hefty discount? You could mandate that there be no board overlap, but shareholders would probably receive a split.
- amelius 5y agoIf Zuckerberg data centers wants to keep growing, then at some point they will have to find external customers.
- CPLX 5y agoYou'd need to actually draft a law rather than write it on a napkin and there would be armies of very well paid lawyers trying to avoid it, but that's common to any attempt to break up concentrated power. In that context it wouldn't be all that hard. You'd need to figure out some definitions for common ownership, joint enterprise, and so on. A lot of those laws and definitions already exist. It's only really in the last few decades that we've abandoned antitrust law but we have successfully done things like this in the past.
- oauea 5y agoIt's been obvious for years that Apple gives absolutely no fucks about destroying small businesses with their inane review processes (which change on a whim and seem to depend on the mood of the reviewer) and fees. Of course larger corporations are exempt.
- throwaway78981 5y agoNot just destroy, destroy and steal too. Because why not. https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/16/22676706/apple-watch-swipe-keyboard-flicktype-lawsuit-kosta-eleftheriou https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/16/22676706/apple-watch-swip...
- jjtheblunt 5y agoThe article says the Apple/Netflix agreement DID follow older rules, before current App Store rules?
- bduerst 5y agoIt's about extending the agreement despite the rules being different now. It's also not good that they mention the Apple TV app in the same email, because it acknowledges they know they're competing with Netflix and it has bearing on their special treatment with a competitor.
- arthurofbabylon 5y agoOf note, it appears that Netflix’s gripe wasn’t so much about the 70/30 split as colloquially observed, but that Apple’s IAP saw more “voluntary churn” than Netflix’s direct purchase. Am I reading that right? Would this churn discrepancy apply to other services besides Netflix (like developer tools, access to smaller content libraries, etc)? Finally, what did Apple do to address their “voluntary churn” problem?
- shkkmo 5y agoThere were a number of issues. My understanding is that Netflix was not paying 30% but rather was paying 15% due to their special agreement with Apple. According to the emails, it was Apple's refusal to go below 15% that triggered Netflix to begin testing not allowing payment via IAP. The "voluntary churn", "promotion coordination" and "revenue sharing" offers are from Apple trying to sweeten the pot to keep Netlfix from dumping IAP completely.
- Terretta 5y agoIn other words, Netflix is harder to cancel directly than through Apple's subscription UI. As is the case for virtually every dark pattern subscription (most of them) when not through Apple. This isn't a problem, it's a benefit -- from customer point of view. Apple makes a customer-friendly rather than seller friendly subscription UI, the reason I won't subscribe to things any more except through Apple. It's genuinely surprising to me the proportion of customer hostile rhetoric on this topic.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y agoNetflix is very easy to cancel, though? There's a big honking "cancel membership" button on the top level account settings page. It's actually more prominent than other entries on the page. http://imgur.com/a/09XZ9jb http://imgur.com/a/09XZ9jb Also very easy to change your plan level up or down.
- caylus 5y agoYeah, I would guess that the important difference is that Apple emails a receipt for all subscriptions every month, making it much less likely that someone forgets about their subscription when they no longer regularly use it.
- actusual 5y agoFor those unfamiliar with IAP as a term of art: IAP = In App Purchases
- redbell 5y agoThanks! That saved me. I was trying to decipher this acronym based on the context where it was mentioned with no luck.
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- ksec 5y agoI am pretty sure I read something similar before. Probably from Benedict Evans or somewhere else. I think the most important issue from these email isn't the lack of Alternative App Store, IAP, or 70/30 split. It is that Apple Execs has Zero understanding of how other business works especially with respect to Internet or Software Services. They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to compare Physical Software distribution before App Store ) that is being continuously sold with recurring revenue like staples or other commodities. Not to mention Netflix knew Apple were doing AppleTV+. Directly competing with them. I love how Apple complains about testing IAP as not OK as in we deserve our 15%. So Reed made the decision to stop IAP. And reading all the emails from Apple execs, Eddy Cue often seems to be the culprit. Steve From D5 >You know, because Woz and I started the company based on doing the whole banana, we weren’t so good at partnering with people. And, you know, acatually, the funny thing is, Microsoft’s one of the few companies we were able to partner with that actually worked for both companies. And we weren’t so good at that, where Bill and Microsoft were really good at it because they didn’t make the whole thing in the early days and they learned how to partner with people really well. And I think if Apple could have had a little more of that in its DNA, it would have served it extremely well. And I don’t think Apple learned that until, you know, a few decades later.
- clusterfish 5y ago> They continue to think Netflix as a physical product ( As they often like to compare Physical Software distribution before App Store ) Framing the relationship this way gives Apple more power and control, so that's what they're doing, no surprise. They're too smart to be merely misunderstanding such things.
- jobu 5y agoThat's interesting. As a developer I've often felt outright hostility coming from Apple developer relations, and maybe it's this lack of a partnership mentality. They generally treat end users really well, but it's like they see external developers as some sort of parasite feeding on their products. In my experience it's difficult to get actual technical help unless you personally know someone internal to Apple.
- jw1224 5y agoI wonder why Netflix don’t want their content to be searchable in Apple’s TV app: > “Since TV App is not going to happen right now, there’s nothing else to get from Netflix at this time” The TV App is actually pretty great — one of the few parts of the Apple ecosystem where the garden walls are very low. I can search for a TV show or film, and even when the iTunes Store has it available, TV still suggests I watch it for free (effectively) on Amazon Prime, or any other streaming services I have set up. It’s a little surprising Apple seem happy to forego the revenue themselves — but great for users like me. For whatever reason, Netflix is the only major streaming provider who don’t integrate with the TV App — which is a shame.
- i_like_apis 5y agoWith the flood of medium quality content coming from Netflix in the past few years I'm almost happy with it not showing up.
- drexlspivey 5y agoNetflix doesn’t want their content to show up in apple TV search because they don’t want to give access to their user’s data to Apple. It’s a terrible anti-consumer decision and frankly it was one of the last straws that led me back to piracy after many years. All I wanted was a universal search for content instead of having to go into each provider’s app. I am now using Plex/Sonarr/Radarr and it works flawlessly, a much better ecosystem with open APIs and tons of integrations with tvdb/discord/trakt/opensubtitles etc. Netflix had a good thing going on for a while but they managed to screw it up.
- tornato7 5y agoI think it's more than that - if users are finding shows through the Apple TV search then Apple is able to promote their own shows and services in that search functionality. Netflix wants people to use their app so they can push their own content and features. Similar to why Amazon doesn't like it when you Google for products and end up at Amazon, they would rather you just visit amazon.com and search from there so they can show you ads.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y agoI just wish the damn AppleTV apps worked better together. I use AppleTV for all my viewing (which isn’t really that much), and one thing that really annoys me, is the crap quality of the apps; even marqée-brand apps. I’m constantly having to reboot the unit to get out of “lockups.” Wouldn’t be surprised if a big reason that Netflix and Apple don’t play well with each other, is that they can’t code it (as opposed to nefarious motives -Hanlon’s Razor).
- asdff 5y agoI have the same issues on xbox with an order of magnitude more powerful hardware. Don't think its apples fault. When you think about it these companies don't have any incentive not to offer crapware software, since they compete with eachother on catalogue rather than ux which is 'good enough.'
- zerohp 5y agoI've never rebooted my AppleTV aside from updates. Double click the home button on the remote and swipe up to kill an app.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y agoThanks for the tip! Yeah, apps hang all the time. They don't crash, per se, but you can't break out of the screen they are presenting.
- mikestew 5y agoThe Netflix app is especially bad about this. At least on my prior-gen 4K ATV, do a search in the Netflix app and you'll never get out of the search menu. Menu button does nothing, select one of the items in search does nothing because as soon as you Menu out of it, you're back to the unescapable search screen. The only way out is to kill the Netflix app. (This might have been fixed, haven't watched anything on Netflix in a while. Definitely repro'ed a month ago.) And, BTW, you might not need to reboot to escape a lockup. I don't have an ATV on and accessible, but I'm pretty sure you double-tap the TV/Home button that brings up an Alt-Tab-like view of your running apps. Swipe or arrow left or right to the problem app, swipe up to kill it. It's what I do with the Netflix app way too often, like when I used the search functionality. :-)
- shmerl 5y agoBoth Apple and MS are despicable.
- ngcc_hk 5y agoBack to basic : Can you paid offline and not used IAP and still maintain an account so both iOS and android can used your paid system to do say Netflix. If so you cannot argue their pricing … it is apple iap. Or Google iap. You are using their payment system. If any paid content or game must use their iap and forced to pay … then there is an argument whether the set price is fair. Like is Mac Pro is fair. If you do like it is there any alternative. Given there is two players … For low end developer … For high buck developer … Price discrimination is really a monopoly way to do things. Or tie-in sale. Not sure forcing apple to do it is right.
- awinter-py 5y ago79/39 split is indeed unique
- jjtheblunt 5y agoIsn't the "unique arrangement" just its age, predating the modern App Store?
- manquer 5y agoThis is not new, 15 % has been possible in the Video Partner Program since 2016. The power dynamics is different with content providers for Apple. Apple TV needs content from the Big 4/5 Studios and that is a lot of leverage they have to negotiate better rates, Netflix may not have the same leverage as other content providers, it would have been easier for them to negotiate comparable terms.