29 ms·

Freenet is a peer-to-peer platform for censorship-resistant communication

526 points by brian_herman 5y ago

fsflover 5y ago
How is it better than I2P: https://geti2p.net https://geti2p.net? Upd: found this: https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet.
- mikece 5y ago
  Without getting into which are better for now, are these the only two options for this concept right now?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/other-networks https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/other-networks Also, Tor hidden services are somewhat close: https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      From the second link you posted: > The two primary differences between Tor / Onion-Routing and I2P are again related to differences in the threat model and the out-proxy design. This is the first paragraph. No further explanation is given about this point. The fact that it says "are again related..." suggests that the page used to have another paragraph before this one, that was later removed? I would like to read about the different threat model and about the out-proxy design, anyone has sources?
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    There is always Tor
- dejw 5y ago
  how is it different to Tor project?
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    Tors not really “P2P” right? It bounces you around between 7 nodes so you don’t even know the peer you’re connecting to
- hkt 5y ago
  They are different things. I2P is a transport layer, freenet is a (imo weird) combination of transport layer and distributed storage. So, running IRC over freenet (for instance) isn't a thing. Personally my take is that freenet is conceptually not as interesting as running bittorrent over i2p, but YMMV.
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    Freenet implements low latency queue and allows for near-realtime communication over distributed storage. Specifically, “IRC over Freenet” WAS made long time ago. You get modem-like delays and bandwidth, but is this a problem? Trying to use it when someone is actively searching for you is a different story, because there's a balance between sending data and being detectable.
    - hkt 5y ago
      TIL, my mistake. Thank you!
      - ArneBab 5y ago
        Not wanting to attack here, just wanting to add more info: IRC over Freenet is actually in use today: It is called FLIP and has 1 minute round trip times. Which is shorter than what people typically notice (except if they actively measure it), because most take longer to type their answers than FLIP needs to deliver it.
  - red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
    You're mostly right. There is FLIP (basically irc for Freenet) but as you can imagine it's very slow. No such thing as instant messaging on Freenet. You can theoretically stream live video at low resolution (with a large delay) but it's not really designed for dynamic content.
- azalemeth 5y ago
  My understanding is that: -- i2p was originally a fork of freenet -- Freenet was designed and conceived as a datastore, fist and foremost, whereas i2p using 'garlic routing' was apt for any IP protocol proxied over it (a bit like tor) -- Freenet therefore is more efficient and distributing popular data -- There are some concerns about the algoirthms behind freenet's anonymity, which i2p claims [1] are troublesome. -- Incidentally, I have heard complaints about the crypto behind i2p, but I am not expert in this area enough to comment. My understanding is that the consensus is that "tor r is better", but note you can e.g. run freenet over tor if desired. I played with both as a curious teenager around the time they were released. I am now largely terrified to, because of the prospect of accidentally finding CSAM, which I suspect is very high on both platforms. [1] https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet
  - not_m_anissimov 5y ago
    You're not likely to find child porn on Tor anymore unless you go looking for it. It's there, because Tor is much bigger than Freenet and I2P, but it's out the way. The hidden wikis were all cleaned up years ago. I bet the drug marketplaces thought it was bad for business to be listed alongside that sort of thing. Freenet is the same as it ever was. I don't think you could play around on there and not find that stuff. Dunno what's going on on I2P these days.
    - sanity31415 5y ago
      > Freenet is the same as it ever was. I don't think you could play around on there and not find that stuff. Dunno what's going on on I2P these days. You're very unlikely to find it unless you're looking for it, none of the default indexes allow it.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    > I am now largely terrified to, because of the prospect of accidentally finding CSAM, which I suspect is very high on both platforms. Chilling effects in a nutshell.
- xvilka 5y ago
  There is one more key difference - I2P has C++ implementation[1] which allows it to be run on the low-performance machines, e.g. routers. It is impossible in case of Java. I wish it had been Rust, though... [1] https://github.com/PurpleI2P/i2pd https://github.com/PurpleI2P/i2pd
  - quotemstr 5y ago
    Why would it be impossible to run Java on low performance machines? There have been mobile and embedded Java implementations for literally decades. C++ doesn't magically imbue a program with performance superpowers either. It's lazy to equate implementation language with performance profile.
    - xvilka 5y ago
      > Why would it be impossible to run Java on low performance machines? In some abstract case - yes, it's possible. In many concrete cases, including I2P, Java-written code is quite resources-consuming for anything close to the router hardware.
      - ArneBab 5y ago
        In the concrete case, Freenet runs quite well on a Pi3. Just do not activate the Sone- and WoT-plugin (they are quite resource-hungry).
        ArneBab 5y ago
        (and already with a Pi4, those resource-hungry plugins are no problem anymore)
- red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
  I've used heavily I2P and Freenet both. To answer your question, better? Neither I2P nor Freenet claim to be inherently better than the other. It depends entirely on what you are using Freenet or I2P for. I2P is like Tor but internal (it does not mainly anonymize clearnet traffic, think onionland) and it is anonymous by default. How anonymous? Theoretically as anonymous as Tor. You can use I2P for torrents and filesharing, pretty fast irc, etc. To host an eepsite (I2P site) you have to run a server and keep it running as long as you want the site to be up, similar to running a Tor hidden service or any server on the clearnet. Freenet has a lot more static content (no JavaScript), reminds one of the early internet (in a good way, mostly). Hosting of freesites (Freenet sites) and files is distributed, no need to run a server to have your site up. There is no 'delete' button on Freenet either. Files/ sites are deleted when no one accesses them for a time. Popular content stays forever. Sites under 2MB in size typically stay forever. Freenet is not anonymous by default, you need to know people IRL who use it to create a friend-to-friend darknet for it to be anonymous. I use mine with a VPN. Both networks are great, lots of cool people use them. I use FMS a lot (Freenet Message System, similar to Usenet) and Sone. When I use I2P I usually host a few eepsites and hang around Irc2p (I2P's irc). I recommend installing and using both. They're both great.
MrStonedOne 5y ago
Freenet generally has peers act as file stores. This presents some concerns people would have, but also presents an interesting question: With the existence of crypto that requires large disk spaces to mine coins, could you abuse freenet for this goal?
- Waterluvian 5y ago
  I’ve never heard about disk space as a relevant constraint on crypto mining. Do you mind elaborating or sharing a link or term I can search?
  - yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
    Probably https://www.chia.net/ https://www.chia.net/ , a crypocurrency that uses "Proof of Space and Time" (prove you've stored stuff on disk) rather than proof of work.
  - drefanzor 5y ago
    Chia Coin miners use hard drive space as proof of work.
- root_axis 5y ago
  No. The data being stored as proof of work cannot be useful, otherwise it's not "work".
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Hm... This is of course "arguing semantics", which some people for some reason seem to think is a trump[§] card to declare a counter-argument irrelevant, but still: Another way to look at that leads to the direct opposite: If it doesn't yield a useful result, it's not "work" but frivolous waste. ___ [§]: Eurgh.
    - root_axis 5y ago
      I wouldn't say it's a semantic argument, it's just that the semantics are a bit overloaded. The stored data is useful as a "proof of work" in the cryptocurrency sense, but it's not useful in every other sense of the word, i.e. it's not used to represent meaningful information like like text, application binaries, images, audio etc.
leshokunin 5y ago
I wonder if Freenet is used for anything but super illegal stuff, and sheer curiosity? This isn’t to say privacy and escaping the bottleneck of traditional internet isn’t compelling. But I’ve yet to see a use case for Freenet.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  You can't see any use case for a private and censorship-resistant publishing platform that isn't illegal? Okay, pretending for a moment that privacy and censorship-resistance aren't good ends unto themselves: Whistleblowing, publishing something perfectly legal but which political or corporate interests don't want published, and publishing or reading LGBT+ content in a political, social, or family situation that would disapprove.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Yeah, but, is anybody actually using it for that? Or is it just used for criminality, in practice?
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      How would you know if someone shared data with someone else (using any kind of communication system, not just anonymous) without telling you? How would you gather statistics of such transfers? Some time ago, certain people used Freenet to transfer enormous amounts of data (for such a small network) in the open, and most users did not notice, and it rarely got mentioned (if at all). So when people state they have estimates of network usage, I get really skeptical.
      - user-the-name 5y ago
        Nobody has stated they have any estimates of anything, but this is a really defensive response to the mere suggestion that it might be good to know if the network is used for criminality or not.
Yuioup 5y ago
I stay away from it because chunks of the data is hosted on your local machine, and it could potentially contain very unsavory data. Sure it's encrypted but try to explain that to your local law enforcement.
- fsflover 5y ago
  > Sure it's encrypted but try to explain that to your local law enforcement. But how will they read it if even you can't?
  - not_m_anissimov 5y ago
    They know what they're looking for. If they know the file locators they can find any matching chunks and decrypt them. It gets worse, if someone connects to you and requests a file from you, good chance your node will cache the chunks in that file. Freenet is a probable-cause paradise.
  - __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
    They might've purchased a decryption key from some dark corner of the internet and after failing to trace the money to the bad-guy they're now hoping to track him down by IP address. Probably it would surface in court that you're not the bad guy they're after, but who knows what kind of bad things they'll do to you in the meantime.
    - snvzz 5y ago
      They might own the legendary key that turns your seemingly random data into very illegal data. plot twist: It's an one-time pad to xor your data against. (and of course, they wouldn't generate it from XORing your data against illegal data...)
      - Infernal 5y ago
        Well this is a terrifying idea. Is this a hypothetical or do we know of an instance where such a “key” was invented?
bitwize 5y ago
The upshot of a project like Freenet is that no matter how noble the intentions, these days it's pretty much a CSAM distribution network and little else -- and if you publicly fess up to using it you'll be put on a list. This is why the future of the internet is censored, regulated platforms like FB, Twitter, and Reddit -- if you seek out uncensored platforms you are ipso facto up to no good because of the reputation of what goes on on those platforms.
- mantas 5y ago
  There're plenty of locations where censorship is much broader topic. And, unfortunately, the list seems to be growing.
- dkdk8283 5y ago
  I think this comment is sensational but generally true. Replace CSAM with “right leaning” politics and you are just as fucked. I’m thinking about leaving the US and getting a EU work visa to avoid the shitshow. There are a lot of people who think censorship is good - in the name of fighting misinformation - and generally hold a negative opinion of opposing viewpoints.
  - hwers 5y ago
    Not really sure leaving the US would do that much good (speaking as a european).
  - zepto 5y ago
    You do realize the EU is further down the path of enabling censorship than the US?
    - fsflover 5y ago
      What are you talking about?
      - sgjohnson 5y ago
        There is no near-absolute right to free speech in the EU. Countless people have been successfilly prosecuted for what would be covered under the 1st amendment in the EU.
ogurechny 5y ago
…and its development has been exponentially decaying to zero for years. Mostly because of unsolved social problems (uneducated public doesn't understand they need real anonymous systems, and happily use corporate junk marketed as “private and secure”, while educated public dreams about making the next fart button app for the millions, and selling their data), but also because readily accessible public network gives too much power to dedicated observers to be safe in current political climate (which has been known for 15 years, yada yada). Still, no one has made anything more advanced and educational. Which is quite sad, as these are still the ideas on anonymous communication from the '90s and early 2000s. A whole generation has probably gone down the drain, and did not do any work.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  I agree, and it's frankly hard to believe that our governments didn't have some hand in shaping that future. The further you follow the cryptography and anonymity paper trail, the more often you run into intelligence agencies. In some ways, it wouldn't surprise me if our current "big tech" paradigm is being relentlessly funded and propped-up by the United States in some way or another. As more and more users get herded into silos like TikTok and Facebook, the stage is being set for international-scale data warfare.
  - garmaine 5y ago
    No need to speculate, we know that governments had a direct role in this thanks to the Snowden revelations.
    - hushpuppy 5y ago
      Governments have structured financial markets heavily to favor large publicly traded corporations through allowing them access to massive amounts of borderline free credit. The goal is growth and consolidation. They want every major industry to be completely dominated by a small handful of big players. This makes it much easier to regulate and implement policy. It would be impossible for them to have nearly the same amount of control over a economy if the economy was dominated by hundreds or thousands of small and medium players. By having 3 or 4 major public corporations they are much more easier to manipulate and keep tabs on. They can 'invite them to the table' to advise and help draft policy and regulations that are mutually beneficial. Also it makes it much easier to convince the public that such regulation is done for the public's benefit. This model of American State Corporatism was developed in the late 19th, early 20th century and has since been exported across the world. It is a pattern that is repeated over and over again. Whether it's automobile manufacturing, steel manufacturing, railway transportation, television broadcasting, ISPs, or Social Media.. once the government set it's sites on regulating it you will see markets devolve into 3-5 major corporate players that pretty much control everybody else. All of this heavily encouraged through regulation of capital markets and central banking systems. The classic pre-internet example is the development of AT&T monopoly. FCC used it's ability to regulate peering agreements to heavily favor the markets towards re-establishing the AT&T monopoly. A monopoly that they essentially lost when the early Bell patents ran out. They were then able to use that monopoly, through regulatory forces, to gain control over the communication infrastructure during the cold war, which was a national security priority. That is how we ended up with things like Room 641A. (which was in 2003-later era, but is something they did through out the entire cold war) History repeated itself with the Prism revelations.
samsquire 5y ago
You have to go out of your way to find abusive media on freenet. There are many top lists of freesites and they are censored of abusive media. I recommend FMS the freenet messaging system which uses web of trust successfully to moderate messages in a Usenet forum.
- azalemeth 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, what sort of things are on freenet? Is it worth installing it in a Tails VM?
  - cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
    Freenet's default feature is HTML sites - just like the regular web but fully hosted on Freenet and only accessible through it. The content of those sites is whatever their authors want it to be :) Further, dynamic applications such as forums are also available. Here's a list of apps built on top of Freenet: https://github.com/freenet/wiki/wiki/Projects https://github.com/freenet/wiki/wiki/Projects Freenet needs UDP so it likely won't work on Tails as Tails tunnels everything through Tor - which does not support UDP AFAIK.
    - bleachedsleet 5y ago
      Freenet can be run through Tor using Onioncat as a virtual network. [0] [0] https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2016/08/18/using-freenet-over-tor.html https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2016/08/18/using-freenet-over-tor....
      - cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
        If I read this correctly it implies that Freenet's opennet does not work anymore? So you can only connect to Freenet with this setup if you already know someone else who uses Freenet and peer with them manually ("darknet").
    - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
      > Freenet's default feature is bad developers that make excuses for a network that won't stop the delivery of child pornography by hiding behind false ethical arguments
w6rpv3om 5y ago
I like to read about those projects, but only use Tor in my daily life.
Popegaf 5y ago
Is this comparable to IPFS running on I2P?
- grumbel 5y ago
  Freenet feels very similar to IPFS, but it differs under the hood. On Freenet the network itself is the data store, you don't host your own files, you upload them and they spread over the network. If you go offline, the files still remain on the network. On IPFS on the other side you are storing your own files and the network is just used for lookup and caching. Everything on Freenet is also encrypted, so you don't get the content-addressability benefits (e.g. dedup) you get on IPFS.
  - summm 5y ago
    Freenet uses convergent encryption, so you do get deduplication.
  - SilverRed 5y ago
    What is the discard policy? If I upload 10TB of random junk, where does it go and how long will it be stored?
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      It'll go to random nodes, and if those chunks have zero popularity they'll get discarded pretty quickly. The exact details would depend on client settings but probably don't matter for a general answer.
      - ArneBab 5y ago
        For content that is never accessed, you have lifetimes between 2 weeks (bigger than 4 MiB) and 3 months (smaller than 2kiB). Content that is accessed regularly can stay around indefinitely. Some of the sites of Freenet are older than a decade and still working well. To see the actual measurements, you need to run Freenet and access the fetch-pull-stats: USK@lwR9sLnZD3QHveZa1FB0dAHgeck~dFNBg368mY09wSU,0Vq~4FXSUj1-op3QdzqjZsIvrNMYWlnSdUwCl-Z1fYA,AQACAAE/fetchpullstats/537/
unixhero 5y ago
Is that still around?
EGreg 5y ago
Yes!! Finally. And the next generation of freenet is maidsafe. Many people on HN are unaware of most of these things. Tor still has sites hosted on a server. Dat and IPFS still have IP addresses of swarm peers. Freenet and SAFE network don’t.
- alanweber22 5y ago
  In what ways does maidsafe improve upon freenet?
  - EGreg 5y ago
    Far far more advanced — it splits data into chunks, encrypts it end to end, uses a Kademlia DHT which removes the IP addresses after the first hop so no one can find all the nodes, has consensus about the files and their evolution, and uses later cryptographic primitives like BLS keys etc. etc. https://safenetforum.org/t/maidsafe-vs-freenet-i2p-ipfs/9409 https://safenetforum.org/t/maidsafe-vs-freenet-i2p-ipfs/9409
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      None of the points you note here are advantages of maidsafe over Freenet — except maybe the later crypto primitives (though these aren’t necessarily safer). But your link has one important point: "Freenet…is more a exchange and communication system instead [of] a data management system as Maidsafe". The goal of Freenet is censorship resistant communication. That is its focus and the origin of almost all its features.
      - EGreg 5y ago
        Why don't you consider them advantages?
        ArneBab 5y ago
        I’ll go through them: - it splits data into chunks, encrypts it end to end → same as Freenet. - uses a Kademlia DHT which removes the IP addresses after the first hop so no one can find all the nodes → same for Freenet, except that Freenet has many additional privacy protections in the protocol and uses node-locations on a ring like Chord, but with an inferred small word structure that allows efficient routing without the need to be able to connect to anyone but your direct peers. - has consensus about the files and their evolution → Freenet has signed, user-controlled keyspaces, so no consensus is needed. Lifetime is given by access (what people access is kept alive) without actually having to track accesses, which is much safer for privacy than a consensus algorithm.
marcodiego 5y ago
I like the fact that I can expose a machine using tor. Its .onion address becomes something analog to a public ip address[0]. It even works behind a nat, so I can ssh to a machine of mine from anywhere in the world. The problem: the other point must support tor to access it. Anyone knows a way using these overlay networks, tor, i2p, freenet, to expose a service on a machine behind a NAT to be accessed through the internet without the need of clients needing special software? [0] https://golb.hplar.ch/2019/01/expose-server-tor.html https://golb.hplar.ch/2019/01/expose-server-tor.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
  Freenet is not a point-to-point network. I.e. you cannot address a specific computer on Freenet by something like an IP. (Well you can, but you shouldn't want to, will explain below.) Freenet is a datastore: It addresses content, not computers. So a Freenet address points to a file or a directory of files (a zip). The addresses can be versioned so files/dirs can be updated. A file/dir may be stored anywhere in Freenet. Where it is stored is not known - the machines which store it are anonymous so censorship is prevented. If many people request a file, it will get stored on more machines automatically. Now of course you can make a specific computer constantly publish new versions of a file to "send" data like on IP and poll for a remote file to receive data. This can emulate direct connections and does work. But it invalidates the whole point of Freenet: Freenet wants to be censorship-resistant, so content should not rely on a single computer to keep existing because that is a single point of failure.
- nephanth 5y ago
  You cannot do that through freenet though : freenet does not work in a server-client way. At its core, it is more like ipfs : it shares static files. That means you can share static websites / blogs / even mail and bbs. All serverless though
- southerntofu 5y ago
  If you don't want additional software requirements client side, then it means you need a publicly-routable IP address on your server, or at least publicly-routable IP/port pairs. This can be achieved in a few ways: - use a VPN from a net-neutral ISP to obtain a real public IP address over VPN (5-10€/mo) - route specific ports to your own machine from an internet-facing server (via SSH/Wireguard/VPN tunnels) ; unfortunately it makes it impossible for different people (backend servers) to share a single routable port - reverse proxy specific protocols to a backend server, using for example TLS SNI (or eSNI) headers ; a single internet-facing server can serve many different vhosts to separate backends, where TLS encryption is terminated on the backend But of course you can run tor/i2p and other crypto-secure routing protocols (yggdrasil, zeronet, cjdns...) to expand the ways to reach your server. I'm unaware of good protocol-agnostic address discovery... for tor we usually do TOFU over DNS (eg. onionMX records) or HTTPS (HTTP2 Alt-SVC headers). The GNU Name System, at least on paper, sounds like the perfect crypto-secure naming scheme that could securely bootstrap addresses from names, but i don't think it has broad adoption yet.
ddtaylor 5y ago
Some HN users are stuck in an interesting privacy paradox. Most of the time when a company or government tries to undermine privacy or encryption they jump at the throat and point out the need for both. However, it seems when we actually accomplish those goals and create systems that are truly anonymous, private and/or encrypted they basically say it's only for criminals and child abuse.
- ma2rten 5y ago
  Are you sure those are the same people?
- lottin 5y ago
  This is a good point. Censorship-resistance sounds good in theory, but when you actually think about it there is certain stuff that everybody would agree needs to be censored.
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    A lot of people? Sure. Everybody? Not really, some people are really vocal about how "data wants to be free".
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    If everyone agrees that it needs to be censored, then who is posting it?
  - int_19h 5y ago
    When you actually think of it, it's impossible to design systems that are capable of such "good" censorship without also being open to all the other kind. Experience has also shown that, when such capacity exists, its use expands over time. And some of us have decided that the long-term social damage from that far exceeds the damage from any information that could be effectively censored.
- kragen 5y ago
  Can you point out which HN users are doing both of these? Maybe they're Russian trolls.
Flocular 5y ago
Still haven solved the CSAM problem, so the public servers are off limits. The private infrastructure solution always looked interesting to me, but I'm missing any actual application ideas for that?
- cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
  I've been using Freenet for 12 years and have not run into CSAM involuntarily, and of course also not voluntarily! So I don't know how you get the impression that "public servers are off limits"? It is possible that CSAM exists in certain forums on Freenet which might indicate the specific goal of sharing CSAM by their name. But if it were to be posted into non-CSAM forums then the community's web of trust would flag it as spam and thus make it disappear. So you're unlikely to just run into CSAM involuntarily. Also, IMHO saying "public / private servers" in the context of Freenet is wrong because Freenet is not organized into "servers". Basically the whole of Freenet is connected into one big public network. And it addresses files, not machines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588336 "Private" happens in terms of a file being "private" if you don't share the link to it with anyone. (A separate Freenet network which is fully private would be possible if every participant configures his instance to not connect to the outside. But one participant disobeying that and it is not private anymore, so it's unlikely that such networks exist.)
  - ndiddy 5y ago
    I downloaded Freenet during the post-Snowden privacy craze since the concept of a decentralized anonymous network interested me. Here’s my experience circa ~2014: 1. Installed Freenet 2. Clicked on the site directory from the Freenet home page to see what sites are out there 3. Saw links to child pornography sites on the site directory 4. Uninstalled Freenet I hope this has been addressed, it’s sickening how the network seemed to be mainly used by pedophiles.
    - int_19h 5y ago
      How do you expect it to be addressed? By its very nature, a decentralized anonymous content network like this is highly resistant to all forms of censorship. This includes CSAM removal. It's like crypto - it's either strong or it isn't, you can't have strong crypto with backdoors for when "somebody must do something".
eptcyka 5y ago
Interestingly, Freenet hasn't migrated away from Freenode. Mind you, there is no affiliation between these two projects, AFAIK.
- kragen 5y ago
  Maybe Freenet people are chatting on FMS?
- cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
  There is a merged pull request to migrate to libera.chat, it seems it just has not been deployed to the webserver yet: https://github.com/freenet/website/pull/98 https://github.com/freenet/website/pull/98 I would blindguess that this was caused by Travis CI shutting down its free service for open source, the website was deployed using Travis IIRC.
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    This should be easy to set up with Github Actions, here is an example where it builds some Kotlin documentation and deploys to Github Pages: https://github.com/kwebio/kweb-core/blob/master/.github/workflows/build.yml https://github.com/kwebio/kweb-core/blob/master/.github/work...
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      Yes. Nextgens has it planned and will be on it once he has the time. If you want to file a pull request, that would be very welcome! The new chat is https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet
romesmoke 5y ago
I tried hosting my blog on IPFS recently, ended up paying ~80 euros for my crypto illiteracy, still no decentralized blog. Yet censorship-resistance is something I want to have around my online home. So Freenet looks interesting. Could a Freenet-hosted page be accessible from a simple Web browser running on a machine with merely an Internet connection? If not, implementing such a thing sounds like a thing.
p4bl0 5y ago
I see a lot of people here comparing Freenet with I2P and I know that these are historically tied together but I would say that it would make a lot more sense to compare Freenet with IPFS, as both are content network, while I2P is more like Tor than Freenet, an overlay transport network. I don't know how Freenet works well so I'm not sure how it differs from IPFS, I would really like to see some kind of comparison table on how they do things.
- Cilvic 5y ago
  I read the basic difference to be anonymity of the user. Which freenet protects by design but has therefore spam and DoS to deal with. Whereas IPFS doesn't have those problems, but also no privacy.
atok1 5y ago
Completely uncensored communication is really the only way forward. We do not know what will be illegal tomorrow which was legal today. And if you do not morally agree with the laws, that is why we have uncensored technology. The best use case.
brian_herman 5y ago
Hey guys I am looking for work if you are hiring please send me an email: Brian Herman Location: Chicago, IL (A suburb of Chicago called Darien, IL) Remote: Yes US Citizen Willing to relocate: Maybe Years of Experience: 7 Technologies: Python, machine learning(data cleaning only and application of already coded methods such as GPT-J), AWS Lex, AWS Route53, Amazon Lambda, AWS API Gateway, AWS Virtual Private Cloud, XML, X12, Insurance Underwriting and Claims, HTML, CSS, Vanilla Javascript, JQuery, SOAP, Linux Debian & Ubuntu, Docker Files, CISCO management, Faxes Interesting Projects: Created payment system that handles hundreds of thousands of dollars per day. Prototyped Created a Amazon powered AI Interactive Voice System with AWS LEX, Lambda and Amazon Connect. Created my own API that we use to power our Insured(Customers) Portal. Resume: https://github.com/brianherman/brianherman/blob/main/Resume https://github.com/brianherman/brianherman/blob/main/Resume.... Github: github.com/brianherman Email: bherman.live@gmail.com
- google234123 5y ago
  This isn't the right thread for a post like this. Unless you made Freenet in which case you should also mention that. Also your link 404s and docx is a terrible format for a resume.
cdnsteve 5y ago
Any architecture diagram on this would be helpful, couldn't find one on the site
commandlinefan 5y ago
Man, I’ve been following Freenet for a long time (20 years now?) - I want it to work, but every time I try it, it’s just too slow to be feasible. Slower than old dial-up internet.
- red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
  Make sure to increase your bandwidth in Core Settings. The recent installers ask (or calculate) how much bandwidth you want to use. Both Freenet and I2P historically assumed you are using Alaskan dial-up when you first install. Freeenet is slow, but it shouldn't be that slow.
sharmin123 5y ago
Let’s Secure WiFi Network and Prevent WiFi Hacking: https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prevent-wifi-hacking/ https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prev...
suction 5y ago
Do they mean real censorship or the American right's skewed idea of "censorship"?
- didjathinkmess 5y ago
  Trick question, they're both censorship.
ArneBab 5y ago
To make this short: wget 'http://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/freenet/fred-releases/build01491/new_installer_offline_1491.jar http://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/freenet/fred-releases/build014...' -O new_installer_offline.jar; java -jar new_installer_offline.jar If you want Freenet on a server: java -jar new_installer_offline.jar -console
CRConrad 5y ago
Biggest problem: Sounds too much like "Freenode", will get confused with that whole mess. Yeah, sure, partly in jest -- but partly in earnest, too. I got it confused when I first saw the link, had to go back and re-read "Aha, no, Freenet..." [Edit:] Heh -- see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588443 [/Edit]
- ArneBab 5y ago
  If that’s the biggest problem, there’s no problem :-) Meet us on libera.chat: https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Fan, folk är vakna tidigt i Linköping.
    - tmikaeld 5y ago
      Du skulle vara se folk i Halmstad
sillysaurusx 5y ago
I like the idea of Freenet, but I'm having trouble installing it on MacOS. Can anyone point me where to go next? - I downloaded the MacOS installer pkg, which installed the FreenetTray application - When I start the FreenetTray, it says Freenet not installed. So I click install - The installer says Java not installed, so it tries to download Java - Then I get stuck here: https://i.imgur.com/Vu6OCek.png https://i.imgur.com/Vu6OCek.png I'm not sure what to do. Not complaining! Should I try to install Java manually somehow? Really cool project.
- ArneBab 5y ago
  Could you try whether installing Java manually and then following the Linux install works?
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Sure! But what's the proper way to install Java manually on MacOS? (Sorry, it's 1:40am, otherwise I'd be a bit more "try to figure out how to do this" and less "please link me to something to run.")
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      I’d suggest to delay that to tomorrow :-) An OSX package manager should work (I have no current OSX to test that, though).
Alex09st 5y ago
If you've got this kind of router, we tend to advocate that you simply talk over with the user manual for your login data. https://www.192168l254.com.mx/ https://www.192168l254.com.mx/ Login Steps First, you ought to open your browser and you ought to write the information science address, 192.168.1.254. If this address leads you to a blank screen, attempt typing. In step 2, the default user name and positive identification for your router’s interface ar typically ‘user name’ and ‘password’. These addresses ar wont to offer first-time access to the interface during a untroubled and untroubled manner. However, some router makers, like D-Link, don't merely give you this address. In the third step, it's time to switch the default user name and default positive identification together with your custom user name. This step is very important to confirm the protection of your network. after you access the router’s admin panel, you'll be able to do no matter you wish and alter the advanced settings as desired.
pnathan 5y ago
I've run Freenet twice in the last twenty years. Maybe 2006, 2012? Each time CSAM was surprisingly visible. Maybe these days it's kicked off to a corner but back then it was pretty much a click away. I'm going to have to say if that's the basic motivation for censorship resistant communication in the USA, I am disappointed and sad. Wonder if it's actually useful in places where you actually have censorship, or if it's just a nice beacon for the ISP to send the rubber hose men to visit. Not to mention random links purporting to be terrorist manuals, normal porn, incoherent blogs and the other usual detritus.
- b5 5y ago
  That was my experience too, the few times I tried it. I haven't been back for just that reason. There's nothing that I can do on there that I can't do on the real internet and even the tiniest risk of CSAM material reaching my machine is not worth it. It's sad but I think in most modern democracies that are relatively free, like the USA and EU, the primary use for these services is CSAM. There's no other reason to use it, except maybe paranoia or technical curiosity, and only the former will keep someone using it. The technically curious will move on quite quickly.
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    Have you ever been threatened by a right-wing extremist that they would come to your house when you answered their hatred online and pointed out the flaws in their logic? I have been. That’s why I deeply appreciate having a pseudonym that’s separated from where I live so I don’t have to fear Neonazis turning up at my doorstep or attacking my kids when I write something they do not like.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - martin_a 5y ago
      You know that you could just name yourself "John Doe" and that's it, right?
bananamerica 5y ago
Everyone wants absolute free speech until their platform is taken over by conspiracy freaks, white supremacists, nazis, and anti vaxxers...
- ArneBab 5y ago
  And then you find out, whether your moderation works. Point in case: On Freenet it does. But I had to close down my youtube comments on my channel completely when they discovered my youtube-Account. Because it’s the clearnet where moderation sucks. Its actually scaling, fully decentralized moderation system is how Freenet keeps communication friendly with actual pseudonymity and privacy protection: https://www.draketo.de/english/freenet/friendly-communication-with-anonymity https://www.draketo.de/english/freenet/friendly-communicatio...
  - bananamerica 5y ago
    I know some of the words you used.
  - schleck8 5y ago
    The two top comments are of people complaining about csam content floating around freenet
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      As usual. And they wrongly claim that you find that by chance. Reality is: You don’t, except if you go searching for it. Just like in the clearnet.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  Don't forget about activists and competition posting illegal content and then reporting it.
- ellyagg 5y ago
  No, I definitely want absolute free speech so folks can safely talk about taboo subjects. Not being able to have a forum to discuss taboo subjects is a creeping evil, IMO.
chovybizzass 5y ago
freenet needs to hire a god damn UI designer.
intricatedetail 5y ago
How this will be legal in the EU? E.g. incoming TERREG regulation requires website operators to have 1hr SLA for deleting harmful content and a dedicated officer to liaise with government requests.
- ArneBab 5y ago
  You could also ask, how TERREG could be consistent with European values.
  - intricatedetail 5y ago
    It's already passed, so one way or another it is a part, as it faced very little protest.
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      That it faced little protest is not true. It only faced little protest in the streets, because most responsible people stayed at home during the pandemic. The protest online was loud.
beyond_godlike 5y ago
For the vast majority of people, some degree of censorship is deemed a necessary evil.. Where do you draw the line when freenet evolves to be more than just free speech and starts seeing morally reprehensible services pop up..
- haroldp 5y ago
  Same question, but for the telephone.
  - gilrain 5y ago
    Are you under the impression that phone calls are open season or something? There are tons of laws regulating what you can and can’t do on the phone.
    - haroldp 5y ago
      What is an example of something that is legal to do in person, but illegal to do on a telephone call?
kkcorps 5y ago
Unpopular opinion - People keep on creating so many privacy focused platforms but general public doesn't seem to care. Seems like there is only like a small minority which cares about privacy.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Also I believe that even those who care and use it don't achieve more.
- simonh 5y ago
  I don;'t think it's fair to say that people don't care about privacy, they just don't care about it as much as dedicated privacy advocates do and put in effort proportionate to the priority they put on the issue. The fact is a lot of, if not most people think people who trade in CSAM should be tracked down, terrorist and criminal communications should be monitored and don't have a problem with government agencies spying on foreigners. They don't have a problem with them spying on domestic communications too in pursuit of the aforesaid goals. Yes a slim majority say state monitoring is too invasive, but that doesn't mean they want it to stop. I do appreciate that the earnest libertarians behind Freenet try hard to expunge CSAM and such, but the only reason they are able to do that is because Freenet is dominated be earnest libertarians. As soon as a more representative demographic got on to it, that would go right out of the window.
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    Why do you think so? 99% of people would block someone who shares CSAM. And in Freenet’s moderation systems blocking automatically propagates to those who truts your judgement. So normal people would expunge CSAM, too. Just by wanting to remove it from their timelines.
quotemstr 5y ago
Ah, yes. We've descended to the point where HN gets mad at you for building technology that lets people speak to each other without people on the west coast sitting in meetings and deciding whether that speech is moral. All I see on this thread is people saying speech is bad, censorship resistance is irresponsible, and that it's very important that the Bay Area control words that go over the internet. To hell with that attitude. Technology should start to just ignore HN and its moralistic and increasingly irrelevant screeching.

526 points by brian_herman 5y ago

How is it better than I2P: https://geti2p.net https://geti2p.net? Upd: found this: https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet.

mikece 5y ago
Without getting into which are better for now, are these the only two options for this concept right now?
- fsflover 5y ago
  https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/other-networks https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/other-networks Also, Tor hidden services are somewhat close: https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/tor.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    From the second link you posted: > The two primary differences between Tor / Onion-Routing and I2P are again related to differences in the threat model and the out-proxy design. This is the first paragraph. No further explanation is given about this point. The fact that it says "are again related..." suggests that the page used to have another paragraph before this one, that was later removed? I would like to read about the different threat model and about the out-proxy design, anyone has sources?
- encryptluks2 5y ago
  There is always Tor
dejw 5y ago
how is it different to Tor project?
- edgyquant 5y ago
  Tors not really “P2P” right? It bounces you around between 7 nodes so you don’t even know the peer you’re connecting to
hkt 5y ago
They are different things. I2P is a transport layer, freenet is a (imo weird) combination of transport layer and distributed storage. So, running IRC over freenet (for instance) isn't a thing. Personally my take is that freenet is conceptually not as interesting as running bittorrent over i2p, but YMMV.
- ogurechny 5y ago
  Freenet implements low latency queue and allows for near-realtime communication over distributed storage. Specifically, “IRC over Freenet” WAS made long time ago. You get modem-like delays and bandwidth, but is this a problem? Trying to use it when someone is actively searching for you is a different story, because there's a balance between sending data and being detectable.
  - hkt 5y ago
    TIL, my mistake. Thank you!
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      Not wanting to attack here, just wanting to add more info: IRC over Freenet is actually in use today: It is called FLIP and has 1 minute round trip times. Which is shorter than what people typically notice (except if they actively measure it), because most take longer to type their answers than FLIP needs to deliver it.
- red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
  You're mostly right. There is FLIP (basically irc for Freenet) but as you can imagine it's very slow. No such thing as instant messaging on Freenet. You can theoretically stream live video at low resolution (with a large delay) but it's not really designed for dynamic content.
azalemeth 5y ago
My understanding is that: -- i2p was originally a fork of freenet -- Freenet was designed and conceived as a datastore, fist and foremost, whereas i2p using 'garlic routing' was apt for any IP protocol proxied over it (a bit like tor) -- Freenet therefore is more efficient and distributing popular data -- There are some concerns about the algoirthms behind freenet's anonymity, which i2p claims [1] are troublesome. -- Incidentally, I have heard complaints about the crypto behind i2p, but I am not expert in this area enough to comment. My understanding is that the consensus is that "tor r is better", but note you can e.g. run freenet over tor if desired. I played with both as a curious teenager around the time they were released. I am now largely terrified to, because of the prospect of accidentally finding CSAM, which I suspect is very high on both platforms. [1] https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet https://geti2p.net/en/comparison/freenet
- not_m_anissimov 5y ago
  You're not likely to find child porn on Tor anymore unless you go looking for it. It's there, because Tor is much bigger than Freenet and I2P, but it's out the way. The hidden wikis were all cleaned up years ago. I bet the drug marketplaces thought it was bad for business to be listed alongside that sort of thing. Freenet is the same as it ever was. I don't think you could play around on there and not find that stuff. Dunno what's going on on I2P these days.
  - sanity31415 5y ago
    > Freenet is the same as it ever was. I don't think you could play around on there and not find that stuff. Dunno what's going on on I2P these days. You're very unlikely to find it unless you're looking for it, none of the default indexes allow it.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  > I am now largely terrified to, because of the prospect of accidentally finding CSAM, which I suspect is very high on both platforms. Chilling effects in a nutshell.
xvilka 5y ago
There is one more key difference - I2P has C++ implementation[1] which allows it to be run on the low-performance machines, e.g. routers. It is impossible in case of Java. I wish it had been Rust, though... [1] https://github.com/PurpleI2P/i2pd https://github.com/PurpleI2P/i2pd
- quotemstr 5y ago
  Why would it be impossible to run Java on low performance machines? There have been mobile and embedded Java implementations for literally decades. C++ doesn't magically imbue a program with performance superpowers either. It's lazy to equate implementation language with performance profile.
  - xvilka 5y ago
    > Why would it be impossible to run Java on low performance machines? In some abstract case - yes, it's possible. In many concrete cases, including I2P, Java-written code is quite resources-consuming for anything close to the router hardware.
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      In the concrete case, Freenet runs quite well on a Pi3. Just do not activate the Sone- and WoT-plugin (they are quite resource-hungry).
      - ArneBab 5y ago
        (and already with a Pi4, those resource-hungry plugins are no problem anymore)
red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
I've used heavily I2P and Freenet both. To answer your question, better? Neither I2P nor Freenet claim to be inherently better than the other. It depends entirely on what you are using Freenet or I2P for. I2P is like Tor but internal (it does not mainly anonymize clearnet traffic, think onionland) and it is anonymous by default. How anonymous? Theoretically as anonymous as Tor. You can use I2P for torrents and filesharing, pretty fast irc, etc. To host an eepsite (I2P site) you have to run a server and keep it running as long as you want the site to be up, similar to running a Tor hidden service or any server on the clearnet. Freenet has a lot more static content (no JavaScript), reminds one of the early internet (in a good way, mostly). Hosting of freesites (Freenet sites) and files is distributed, no need to run a server to have your site up. There is no 'delete' button on Freenet either. Files/ sites are deleted when no one accesses them for a time. Popular content stays forever. Sites under 2MB in size typically stay forever. Freenet is not anonymous by default, you need to know people IRL who use it to create a friend-to-friend darknet for it to be anonymous. I use mine with a VPN. Both networks are great, lots of cool people use them. I use FMS a lot (Freenet Message System, similar to Usenet) and Sone. When I use I2P I usually host a few eepsites and hang around Irc2p (I2P's irc). I recommend installing and using both. They're both great.

MrStonedOne 5y ago

Freenet generally has peers act as file stores. This presents some concerns people would have, but also presents an interesting question: With the existence of crypto that requires large disk spaces to mine coins, could you abuse freenet for this goal?

Waterluvian 5y ago
I’ve never heard about disk space as a relevant constraint on crypto mining. Do you mind elaborating or sharing a link or term I can search?
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  Probably https://www.chia.net/ https://www.chia.net/ , a crypocurrency that uses "Proof of Space and Time" (prove you've stored stuff on disk) rather than proof of work.
- drefanzor 5y ago
  Chia Coin miners use hard drive space as proof of work.
root_axis 5y ago
No. The data being stored as proof of work cannot be useful, otherwise it's not "work".
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Hm... This is of course "arguing semantics", which some people for some reason seem to think is a trump[§] card to declare a counter-argument irrelevant, but still: Another way to look at that leads to the direct opposite: If it doesn't yield a useful result, it's not "work" but frivolous waste. ___ [§]: Eurgh.
  - root_axis 5y ago
    I wouldn't say it's a semantic argument, it's just that the semantics are a bit overloaded. The stored data is useful as a "proof of work" in the cryptocurrency sense, but it's not useful in every other sense of the word, i.e. it's not used to represent meaningful information like like text, application binaries, images, audio etc.

leshokunin 5y ago

I wonder if Freenet is used for anything but super illegal stuff, and sheer curiosity? This isn’t to say privacy and escaping the bottleneck of traditional internet isn’t compelling. But I’ve yet to see a use case for Freenet.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
You can't see any use case for a private and censorship-resistant publishing platform that isn't illegal? Okay, pretending for a moment that privacy and censorship-resistance aren't good ends unto themselves: Whistleblowing, publishing something perfectly legal but which political or corporate interests don't want published, and publishing or reading LGBT+ content in a political, social, or family situation that would disapprove.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Yeah, but, is anybody actually using it for that? Or is it just used for criminality, in practice?
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    How would you know if someone shared data with someone else (using any kind of communication system, not just anonymous) without telling you? How would you gather statistics of such transfers? Some time ago, certain people used Freenet to transfer enormous amounts of data (for such a small network) in the open, and most users did not notice, and it rarely got mentioned (if at all). So when people state they have estimates of network usage, I get really skeptical.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Nobody has stated they have any estimates of anything, but this is a really defensive response to the mere suggestion that it might be good to know if the network is used for criminality or not.

Yuioup 5y ago

I stay away from it because chunks of the data is hosted on your local machine, and it could potentially contain very unsavory data. Sure it's encrypted but try to explain that to your local law enforcement.

fsflover 5y ago
> Sure it's encrypted but try to explain that to your local law enforcement. But how will they read it if even you can't?
- not_m_anissimov 5y ago
  They know what they're looking for. If they know the file locators they can find any matching chunks and decrypt them. It gets worse, if someone connects to you and requests a file from you, good chance your node will cache the chunks in that file. Freenet is a probable-cause paradise.
- __MatrixMan__ 5y ago
  They might've purchased a decryption key from some dark corner of the internet and after failing to trace the money to the bad-guy they're now hoping to track him down by IP address. Probably it would surface in court that you're not the bad guy they're after, but who knows what kind of bad things they'll do to you in the meantime.
  - snvzz 5y ago
    They might own the legendary key that turns your seemingly random data into very illegal data. plot twist: It's an one-time pad to xor your data against. (and of course, they wouldn't generate it from XORing your data against illegal data...)
    - Infernal 5y ago
      Well this is a terrifying idea. Is this a hypothetical or do we know of an instance where such a “key” was invented?

bitwize 5y ago

The upshot of a project like Freenet is that no matter how noble the intentions, these days it's pretty much a CSAM distribution network and little else -- and if you publicly fess up to using it you'll be put on a list. This is why the future of the internet is censored, regulated platforms like FB, Twitter, and Reddit -- if you seek out uncensored platforms you are ipso facto up to no good because of the reputation of what goes on on those platforms.

mantas 5y ago
There're plenty of locations where censorship is much broader topic. And, unfortunately, the list seems to be growing.
dkdk8283 5y ago
I think this comment is sensational but generally true. Replace CSAM with “right leaning” politics and you are just as fucked. I’m thinking about leaving the US and getting a EU work visa to avoid the shitshow. There are a lot of people who think censorship is good - in the name of fighting misinformation - and generally hold a negative opinion of opposing viewpoints.
- hwers 5y ago
  Not really sure leaving the US would do that much good (speaking as a european).
- zepto 5y ago
  You do realize the EU is further down the path of enabling censorship than the US?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    What are you talking about?
    - sgjohnson 5y ago
      There is no near-absolute right to free speech in the EU. Countless people have been successfilly prosecuted for what would be covered under the 1st amendment in the EU.

ogurechny 5y ago

…and its development has been exponentially decaying to zero for years. Mostly because of unsolved social problems (uneducated public doesn't understand they need real anonymous systems, and happily use corporate junk marketed as “private and secure”, while educated public dreams about making the next fart button app for the millions, and selling their data), but also because readily accessible public network gives too much power to dedicated observers to be safe in current political climate (which has been known for 15 years, yada yada). Still, no one has made anything more advanced and educational. Which is quite sad, as these are still the ideas on anonymous communication from the '90s and early 2000s. A whole generation has probably gone down the drain, and did not do any work.

smoldesu 5y ago
I agree, and it's frankly hard to believe that our governments didn't have some hand in shaping that future. The further you follow the cryptography and anonymity paper trail, the more often you run into intelligence agencies. In some ways, it wouldn't surprise me if our current "big tech" paradigm is being relentlessly funded and propped-up by the United States in some way or another. As more and more users get herded into silos like TikTok and Facebook, the stage is being set for international-scale data warfare.
- garmaine 5y ago
  No need to speculate, we know that governments had a direct role in this thanks to the Snowden revelations.
  - hushpuppy 5y ago
    Governments have structured financial markets heavily to favor large publicly traded corporations through allowing them access to massive amounts of borderline free credit. The goal is growth and consolidation. They want every major industry to be completely dominated by a small handful of big players. This makes it much easier to regulate and implement policy. It would be impossible for them to have nearly the same amount of control over a economy if the economy was dominated by hundreds or thousands of small and medium players. By having 3 or 4 major public corporations they are much more easier to manipulate and keep tabs on. They can 'invite them to the table' to advise and help draft policy and regulations that are mutually beneficial. Also it makes it much easier to convince the public that such regulation is done for the public's benefit. This model of American State Corporatism was developed in the late 19th, early 20th century and has since been exported across the world. It is a pattern that is repeated over and over again. Whether it's automobile manufacturing, steel manufacturing, railway transportation, television broadcasting, ISPs, or Social Media.. once the government set it's sites on regulating it you will see markets devolve into 3-5 major corporate players that pretty much control everybody else. All of this heavily encouraged through regulation of capital markets and central banking systems. The classic pre-internet example is the development of AT&T monopoly. FCC used it's ability to regulate peering agreements to heavily favor the markets towards re-establishing the AT&T monopoly. A monopoly that they essentially lost when the early Bell patents ran out. They were then able to use that monopoly, through regulatory forces, to gain control over the communication infrastructure during the cold war, which was a national security priority. That is how we ended up with things like Room 641A. (which was in 2003-later era, but is something they did through out the entire cold war) History repeated itself with the Prism revelations.

samsquire 5y ago

You have to go out of your way to find abusive media on freenet. There are many top lists of freesites and they are censored of abusive media. I recommend FMS the freenet messaging system which uses web of trust successfully to moderate messages in a Usenet forum.

azalemeth 5y ago
Out of curiosity, what sort of things are on freenet? Is it worth installing it in a Tails VM?
- cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
  Freenet's default feature is HTML sites - just like the regular web but fully hosted on Freenet and only accessible through it. The content of those sites is whatever their authors want it to be :) Further, dynamic applications such as forums are also available. Here's a list of apps built on top of Freenet: https://github.com/freenet/wiki/wiki/Projects https://github.com/freenet/wiki/wiki/Projects Freenet needs UDP so it likely won't work on Tails as Tails tunnels everything through Tor - which does not support UDP AFAIK.
  - bleachedsleet 5y ago
    Freenet can be run through Tor using Onioncat as a virtual network. [0] [0] https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2016/08/18/using-freenet-over-tor.html https://bluishcoder.co.nz/2016/08/18/using-freenet-over-tor....
    - cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
      If I read this correctly it implies that Freenet's opennet does not work anymore? So you can only connect to Freenet with this setup if you already know someone else who uses Freenet and peer with them manually ("darknet").
  - JohnHaugeland 5y ago
    > Freenet's default feature is bad developers that make excuses for a network that won't stop the delivery of child pornography by hiding behind false ethical arguments

w6rpv3om 5y ago

I like to read about those projects, but only use Tor in my daily life.

Popegaf 5y ago

Is this comparable to IPFS running on I2P?

grumbel 5y ago
Freenet feels very similar to IPFS, but it differs under the hood. On Freenet the network itself is the data store, you don't host your own files, you upload them and they spread over the network. If you go offline, the files still remain on the network. On IPFS on the other side you are storing your own files and the network is just used for lookup and caching. Everything on Freenet is also encrypted, so you don't get the content-addressability benefits (e.g. dedup) you get on IPFS.
- summm 5y ago
  Freenet uses convergent encryption, so you do get deduplication.
- SilverRed 5y ago
  What is the discard policy? If I upload 10TB of random junk, where does it go and how long will it be stored?
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    It'll go to random nodes, and if those chunks have zero popularity they'll get discarded pretty quickly. The exact details would depend on client settings but probably don't matter for a general answer.
    - ArneBab 5y ago
      For content that is never accessed, you have lifetimes between 2 weeks (bigger than 4 MiB) and 3 months (smaller than 2kiB). Content that is accessed regularly can stay around indefinitely. Some of the sites of Freenet are older than a decade and still working well. To see the actual measurements, you need to run Freenet and access the fetch-pull-stats: USK@lwR9sLnZD3QHveZa1FB0dAHgeck~dFNBg368mY09wSU,0Vq~4FXSUj1-op3QdzqjZsIvrNMYWlnSdUwCl-Z1fYA,AQACAAE/fetchpullstats/537/

unixhero 5y ago

Is that still around?

EGreg 5y ago

Yes!! Finally. And the next generation of freenet is maidsafe. Many people on HN are unaware of most of these things. Tor still has sites hosted on a server. Dat and IPFS still have IP addresses of swarm peers. Freenet and SAFE network don’t.

alanweber22 5y ago
In what ways does maidsafe improve upon freenet?
- EGreg 5y ago
  Far far more advanced — it splits data into chunks, encrypts it end to end, uses a Kademlia DHT which removes the IP addresses after the first hop so no one can find all the nodes, has consensus about the files and their evolution, and uses later cryptographic primitives like BLS keys etc. etc. https://safenetforum.org/t/maidsafe-vs-freenet-i2p-ipfs/9409 https://safenetforum.org/t/maidsafe-vs-freenet-i2p-ipfs/9409
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    None of the points you note here are advantages of maidsafe over Freenet — except maybe the later crypto primitives (though these aren’t necessarily safer). But your link has one important point: "Freenet…is more a exchange and communication system instead [of] a data management system as Maidsafe". The goal of Freenet is censorship resistant communication. That is its focus and the origin of almost all its features.
    - EGreg 5y ago
      Why don't you consider them advantages?
      - ArneBab 5y ago
        I’ll go through them: - it splits data into chunks, encrypts it end to end → same as Freenet. - uses a Kademlia DHT which removes the IP addresses after the first hop so no one can find all the nodes → same for Freenet, except that Freenet has many additional privacy protections in the protocol and uses node-locations on a ring like Chord, but with an inferred small word structure that allows efficient routing without the need to be able to connect to anyone but your direct peers. - has consensus about the files and their evolution → Freenet has signed, user-controlled keyspaces, so no consensus is needed. Lifetime is given by access (what people access is kept alive) without actually having to track accesses, which is much safer for privacy than a consensus algorithm.

marcodiego 5y ago

I like the fact that I can expose a machine using tor. Its .onion address becomes something analog to a public ip address[0]. It even works behind a nat, so I can ssh to a machine of mine from anywhere in the world. The problem: the other point must support tor to access it. Anyone knows a way using these overlay networks, tor, i2p, freenet, to expose a service on a machine behind a NAT to be accessed through the internet without the need of clients needing special software? [0] https://golb.hplar.ch/2019/01/expose-server-tor.html https://golb.hplar.ch/2019/01/expose-server-tor.html

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
Freenet is not a point-to-point network. I.e. you cannot address a specific computer on Freenet by something like an IP. (Well you can, but you shouldn't want to, will explain below.) Freenet is a datastore: It addresses content, not computers. So a Freenet address points to a file or a directory of files (a zip). The addresses can be versioned so files/dirs can be updated. A file/dir may be stored anywhere in Freenet. Where it is stored is not known - the machines which store it are anonymous so censorship is prevented. If many people request a file, it will get stored on more machines automatically. Now of course you can make a specific computer constantly publish new versions of a file to "send" data like on IP and poll for a remote file to receive data. This can emulate direct connections and does work. But it invalidates the whole point of Freenet: Freenet wants to be censorship-resistant, so content should not rely on a single computer to keep existing because that is a single point of failure.
nephanth 5y ago
You cannot do that through freenet though : freenet does not work in a server-client way. At its core, it is more like ipfs : it shares static files. That means you can share static websites / blogs / even mail and bbs. All serverless though
southerntofu 5y ago
If you don't want additional software requirements client side, then it means you need a publicly-routable IP address on your server, or at least publicly-routable IP/port pairs. This can be achieved in a few ways: - use a VPN from a net-neutral ISP to obtain a real public IP address over VPN (5-10€/mo) - route specific ports to your own machine from an internet-facing server (via SSH/Wireguard/VPN tunnels) ; unfortunately it makes it impossible for different people (backend servers) to share a single routable port - reverse proxy specific protocols to a backend server, using for example TLS SNI (or eSNI) headers ; a single internet-facing server can serve many different vhosts to separate backends, where TLS encryption is terminated on the backend But of course you can run tor/i2p and other crypto-secure routing protocols (yggdrasil, zeronet, cjdns...) to expand the ways to reach your server. I'm unaware of good protocol-agnostic address discovery... for tor we usually do TOFU over DNS (eg. onionMX records) or HTTPS (HTTP2 Alt-SVC headers). The GNU Name System, at least on paper, sounds like the perfect crypto-secure naming scheme that could securely bootstrap addresses from names, but i don't think it has broad adoption yet.

ddtaylor 5y ago

Some HN users are stuck in an interesting privacy paradox. Most of the time when a company or government tries to undermine privacy or encryption they jump at the throat and point out the need for both. However, it seems when we actually accomplish those goals and create systems that are truly anonymous, private and/or encrypted they basically say it's only for criminals and child abuse.

ma2rten 5y ago
Are you sure those are the same people?
lottin 5y ago
This is a good point. Censorship-resistance sounds good in theory, but when you actually think about it there is certain stuff that everybody would agree needs to be censored.
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  A lot of people? Sure. Everybody? Not really, some people are really vocal about how "data wants to be free".
- wongarsu 5y ago
  If everyone agrees that it needs to be censored, then who is posting it?
- int_19h 5y ago
  When you actually think of it, it's impossible to design systems that are capable of such "good" censorship without also being open to all the other kind. Experience has also shown that, when such capacity exists, its use expands over time. And some of us have decided that the long-term social damage from that far exceeds the damage from any information that could be effectively censored.
kragen 5y ago
Can you point out which HN users are doing both of these? Maybe they're Russian trolls.

Flocular 5y ago

Still haven solved the CSAM problem, so the public servers are off limits. The private infrastructure solution always looked interesting to me, but I'm missing any actual application ideas for that?

cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
I've been using Freenet for 12 years and have not run into CSAM involuntarily, and of course also not voluntarily! So I don't know how you get the impression that "public servers are off limits"? It is possible that CSAM exists in certain forums on Freenet which might indicate the specific goal of sharing CSAM by their name. But if it were to be posted into non-CSAM forums then the community's web of trust would flag it as spam and thus make it disappear. So you're unlikely to just run into CSAM involuntarily. Also, IMHO saying "public / private servers" in the context of Freenet is wrong because Freenet is not organized into "servers". Basically the whole of Freenet is connected into one big public network. And it addresses files, not machines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588336 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588336 "Private" happens in terms of a file being "private" if you don't share the link to it with anyone. (A separate Freenet network which is fully private would be possible if every participant configures his instance to not connect to the outside. But one participant disobeying that and it is not private anymore, so it's unlikely that such networks exist.)
- ndiddy 5y ago
  I downloaded Freenet during the post-Snowden privacy craze since the concept of a decentralized anonymous network interested me. Here’s my experience circa ~2014: 1. Installed Freenet 2. Clicked on the site directory from the Freenet home page to see what sites are out there 3. Saw links to child pornography sites on the site directory 4. Uninstalled Freenet I hope this has been addressed, it’s sickening how the network seemed to be mainly used by pedophiles.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    How do you expect it to be addressed? By its very nature, a decentralized anonymous content network like this is highly resistant to all forms of censorship. This includes CSAM removal. It's like crypto - it's either strong or it isn't, you can't have strong crypto with backdoors for when "somebody must do something".

eptcyka 5y ago

Interestingly, Freenet hasn't migrated away from Freenode. Mind you, there is no affiliation between these two projects, AFAIK.

kragen 5y ago
Maybe Freenet people are chatting on FMS?
cgtzczykldpq 5y ago
There is a merged pull request to migrate to libera.chat, it seems it just has not been deployed to the webserver yet: https://github.com/freenet/website/pull/98 https://github.com/freenet/website/pull/98 I would blindguess that this was caused by Travis CI shutting down its free service for open source, the website was deployed using Travis IIRC.
- sanity31415 5y ago
  This should be easy to set up with Github Actions, here is an example where it builds some Kotlin documentation and deploys to Github Pages: https://github.com/kwebio/kweb-core/blob/master/.github/workflows/build.yml https://github.com/kwebio/kweb-core/blob/master/.github/work...
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    Yes. Nextgens has it planned and will be on it once he has the time. If you want to file a pull request, that would be very welcome! The new chat is https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet

romesmoke 5y ago

I tried hosting my blog on IPFS recently, ended up paying ~80 euros for my crypto illiteracy, still no decentralized blog. Yet censorship-resistance is something I want to have around my online home. So Freenet looks interesting. Could a Freenet-hosted page be accessible from a simple Web browser running on a machine with merely an Internet connection? If not, implementing such a thing sounds like a thing.

p4bl0 5y ago

I see a lot of people here comparing Freenet with I2P and I know that these are historically tied together but I would say that it would make a lot more sense to compare Freenet with IPFS, as both are content network, while I2P is more like Tor than Freenet, an overlay transport network. I don't know how Freenet works well so I'm not sure how it differs from IPFS, I would really like to see some kind of comparison table on how they do things.

Cilvic 5y ago
I read the basic difference to be anonymity of the user. Which freenet protects by design but has therefore spam and DoS to deal with. Whereas IPFS doesn't have those problems, but also no privacy.

atok1 5y ago

Completely uncensored communication is really the only way forward. We do not know what will be illegal tomorrow which was legal today. And if you do not morally agree with the laws, that is why we have uncensored technology. The best use case.

brian_herman 5y ago

Hey guys I am looking for work if you are hiring please send me an email: Brian Herman Location: Chicago, IL (A suburb of Chicago called Darien, IL) Remote: Yes US Citizen Willing to relocate: Maybe Years of Experience: 7 Technologies: Python, machine learning(data cleaning only and application of already coded methods such as GPT-J), AWS Lex, AWS Route53, Amazon Lambda, AWS API Gateway, AWS Virtual Private Cloud, XML, X12, Insurance Underwriting and Claims, HTML, CSS, Vanilla Javascript, JQuery, SOAP, Linux Debian & Ubuntu, Docker Files, CISCO management, Faxes Interesting Projects: Created payment system that handles hundreds of thousands of dollars per day. Prototyped Created a Amazon powered AI Interactive Voice System with AWS LEX, Lambda and Amazon Connect. Created my own API that we use to power our Insured(Customers) Portal. Resume: https://github.com/brianherman/brianherman/blob/main/Resume https://github.com/brianherman/brianherman/blob/main/Resume.... Github: github.com/brianherman Email: bherman.live@gmail.com

google234123 5y ago
This isn't the right thread for a post like this. Unless you made Freenet in which case you should also mention that. Also your link 404s and docx is a terrible format for a resume.

cdnsteve 5y ago

Any architecture diagram on this would be helpful, couldn't find one on the site

commandlinefan 5y ago

Man, I’ve been following Freenet for a long time (20 years now?) - I want it to work, but every time I try it, it’s just too slow to be feasible. Slower than old dial-up internet.

red-Freenet-I2P 5y ago
Make sure to increase your bandwidth in Core Settings. The recent installers ask (or calculate) how much bandwidth you want to use. Both Freenet and I2P historically assumed you are using Alaskan dial-up when you first install. Freeenet is slow, but it shouldn't be that slow.

sharmin123 5y ago

Let’s Secure WiFi Network and Prevent WiFi Hacking: https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prevent-wifi-hacking/ https://www.hackerslist.co/lets-secure-wifi-network-and-prev...

suction 5y ago

Do they mean real censorship or the American right's skewed idea of "censorship"?

didjathinkmess 5y ago
Trick question, they're both censorship.

ArneBab 5y ago

To make this short: wget 'http://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/freenet/fred-releases/build01491/new_installer_offline_1491.jar http://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/freenet/fred-releases/build014...' -O new_installer_offline.jar; java -jar new_installer_offline.jar If you want Freenet on a server: java -jar new_installer_offline.jar -console

CRConrad 5y ago

Biggest problem: Sounds too much like "Freenode", will get confused with that whole mess. Yeah, sure, partly in jest -- but partly in earnest, too. I got it confused when I first saw the link, had to go back and re-read "Aha, no, Freenet..." [Edit:] Heh -- see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588443 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28588443 [/Edit]

ArneBab 5y ago
If that’s the biggest problem, there’s no problem :-) Meet us on libera.chat: https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet https://web.libera.chat/?nick=FollowTheRabbit|?#freenet
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Fan, folk är vakna tidigt i Linköping.
  - tmikaeld 5y ago
    Du skulle vara se folk i Halmstad

sillysaurusx 5y ago

I like the idea of Freenet, but I'm having trouble installing it on MacOS. Can anyone point me where to go next? - I downloaded the MacOS installer pkg, which installed the FreenetTray application - When I start the FreenetTray, it says Freenet not installed. So I click install - The installer says Java not installed, so it tries to download Java - Then I get stuck here: https://i.imgur.com/Vu6OCek.png https://i.imgur.com/Vu6OCek.png I'm not sure what to do. Not complaining! Should I try to install Java manually somehow? Really cool project.

ArneBab 5y ago
Could you try whether installing Java manually and then following the Linux install works?
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Sure! But what's the proper way to install Java manually on MacOS? (Sorry, it's 1:40am, otherwise I'd be a bit more "try to figure out how to do this" and less "please link me to something to run.")
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    I’d suggest to delay that to tomorrow :-) An OSX package manager should work (I have no current OSX to test that, though).

Alex09st 5y ago

If you've got this kind of router, we tend to advocate that you simply talk over with the user manual for your login data. https://www.192168l254.com.mx/ https://www.192168l254.com.mx/ Login Steps First, you ought to open your browser and you ought to write the information science address, 192.168.1.254. If this address leads you to a blank screen, attempt typing. In step 2, the default user name and positive identification for your router’s interface ar typically ‘user name’ and ‘password’. These addresses ar wont to offer first-time access to the interface during a untroubled and untroubled manner. However, some router makers, like D-Link, don't merely give you this address. In the third step, it's time to switch the default user name and default positive identification together with your custom user name. This step is very important to confirm the protection of your network. after you access the router’s admin panel, you'll be able to do no matter you wish and alter the advanced settings as desired.

pnathan 5y ago

I've run Freenet twice in the last twenty years. Maybe 2006, 2012? Each time CSAM was surprisingly visible. Maybe these days it's kicked off to a corner but back then it was pretty much a click away. I'm going to have to say if that's the basic motivation for censorship resistant communication in the USA, I am disappointed and sad. Wonder if it's actually useful in places where you actually have censorship, or if it's just a nice beacon for the ISP to send the rubber hose men to visit. Not to mention random links purporting to be terrorist manuals, normal porn, incoherent blogs and the other usual detritus.

b5 5y ago
That was my experience too, the few times I tried it. I haven't been back for just that reason. There's nothing that I can do on there that I can't do on the real internet and even the tiniest risk of CSAM material reaching my machine is not worth it. It's sad but I think in most modern democracies that are relatively free, like the USA and EU, the primary use for these services is CSAM. There's no other reason to use it, except maybe paranoia or technical curiosity, and only the former will keep someone using it. The technically curious will move on quite quickly.
- ArneBab 5y ago
  Have you ever been threatened by a right-wing extremist that they would come to your house when you answered their hatred online and pointed out the flaws in their logic? I have been. That’s why I deeply appreciate having a pseudonym that’s separated from where I live so I don’t have to fear Neonazis turning up at my doorstep or attacking my kids when I write something they do not like.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - martin_a 5y ago
    You know that you could just name yourself "John Doe" and that's it, right?

bananamerica 5y ago

Everyone wants absolute free speech until their platform is taken over by conspiracy freaks, white supremacists, nazis, and anti vaxxers...

ArneBab 5y ago
And then you find out, whether your moderation works. Point in case: On Freenet it does. But I had to close down my youtube comments on my channel completely when they discovered my youtube-Account. Because it’s the clearnet where moderation sucks. Its actually scaling, fully decentralized moderation system is how Freenet keeps communication friendly with actual pseudonymity and privacy protection: https://www.draketo.de/english/freenet/friendly-communication-with-anonymity https://www.draketo.de/english/freenet/friendly-communicatio...
- bananamerica 5y ago
  I know some of the words you used.
- schleck8 5y ago
  The two top comments are of people complaining about csam content floating around freenet
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    As usual. And they wrongly claim that you find that by chance. Reality is: You don’t, except if you go searching for it. Just like in the clearnet.
intricatedetail 5y ago
Don't forget about activists and competition posting illegal content and then reporting it.
ellyagg 5y ago
No, I definitely want absolute free speech so folks can safely talk about taboo subjects. Not being able to have a forum to discuss taboo subjects is a creeping evil, IMO.

chovybizzass 5y ago

freenet needs to hire a god damn UI designer.

intricatedetail 5y ago

How this will be legal in the EU? E.g. incoming TERREG regulation requires website operators to have 1hr SLA for deleting harmful content and a dedicated officer to liaise with government requests.

ArneBab 5y ago
You could also ask, how TERREG could be consistent with European values.
- intricatedetail 5y ago
  It's already passed, so one way or another it is a part, as it faced very little protest.
  - ArneBab 5y ago
    That it faced little protest is not true. It only faced little protest in the streets, because most responsible people stayed at home during the pandemic. The protest online was loud.

beyond_godlike 5y ago

For the vast majority of people, some degree of censorship is deemed a necessary evil.. Where do you draw the line when freenet evolves to be more than just free speech and starts seeing morally reprehensible services pop up..

haroldp 5y ago
Same question, but for the telephone.
- gilrain 5y ago
  Are you under the impression that phone calls are open season or something? There are tons of laws regulating what you can and can’t do on the phone.
  - haroldp 5y ago
    What is an example of something that is legal to do in person, but illegal to do on a telephone call?

kkcorps 5y ago

Unpopular opinion - People keep on creating so many privacy focused platforms but general public doesn't seem to care. Seems like there is only like a small minority which cares about privacy.

agumonkey 5y ago
Also I believe that even those who care and use it don't achieve more.
simonh 5y ago
I don;'t think it's fair to say that people don't care about privacy, they just don't care about it as much as dedicated privacy advocates do and put in effort proportionate to the priority they put on the issue. The fact is a lot of, if not most people think people who trade in CSAM should be tracked down, terrorist and criminal communications should be monitored and don't have a problem with government agencies spying on foreigners. They don't have a problem with them spying on domestic communications too in pursuit of the aforesaid goals. Yes a slim majority say state monitoring is too invasive, but that doesn't mean they want it to stop. I do appreciate that the earnest libertarians behind Freenet try hard to expunge CSAM and such, but the only reason they are able to do that is because Freenet is dominated be earnest libertarians. As soon as a more representative demographic got on to it, that would go right out of the window.
- ArneBab 5y ago
  Why do you think so? 99% of people would block someone who shares CSAM. And in Freenet’s moderation systems blocking automatically propagates to those who truts your judgement. So normal people would expunge CSAM, too. Just by wanting to remove it from their timelines.

quotemstr 5y ago

Ah, yes. We've descended to the point where HN gets mad at you for building technology that lets people speak to each other without people on the west coast sitting in meetings and deciding whether that speech is moral. All I see on this thread is people saying speech is bad, censorship resistance is irresponsible, and that it's very important that the Bay Area control words that go over the internet. To hell with that attitude. Technology should start to just ignore HN and its moralistic and increasingly irrelevant screeching.