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Why don’t the French celebrate Lafayette?
- NikolaeVarius 5y agoI'm going to assume this is a reference to the fact a Hero of Two Worlds by Mike Duncan was just released.
- karaterobot 5y agoIt's in the second paragraph of the article, and discussed throughout it.
- chrononaut 5y ago> .. while a pleasingly informal new biography by the American podcast host Mike Duncan, “Hero of Two Worlds” .. If you're interested in a podcast about the French revolution (and other revolutions), Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast is absolutely fantastic: https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/ https://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/revolutions_podcast/
- mchusma 5y agoI'm listening to this now, midway between the french revolution (the third revolution in the series). It's good, I do recommend it.
- NamTaf 5y agoThirded this recommendation. I'm ploughing through the 5th of (so far) 10 series - the Spanish American revolution - and every single one has thus far been fascinating. I cannot wait to then circle back around to his History of Rome podcast, which from reviews looks to be held in high regard.
- seattleiteite 5y agoI recently had the pleasure of being in the Naval Museum in Cartagena. When the tour guide got to the section of the museum featuring Vernon's attempted takeover of the city, I was ecstatic. I was like, "I know about this! George Washington's brother fought in that battle!" Thanks to Mike I can be THAT guy on history tours now lol.
- kayadera 5y agoYou are in for a treat. I've listened to the History of Rome several times, and it's fascinating each time. Enjoy!
- mmmpop 5y agoAgree, it's a slog for the fist couple dozen episodes as Mike gets into his groove but it's really great and I look forward to listening again once he wraps up Revolutions.
- VintageCool 5y agoBy the time he gets to "the long national nightmare known as Hannibal", it's pretty good!
- seattleiteite 5y agoThe author had nice, if somewhat demure, things to say about Mike Duncan. I absolutely love his Revolutions podcast and find his series on the French and Haitian revolutions to be particularly fun and interesting.
- seibelj 5y agoI recommend starting with the Haitian Revolution https://open.spotify.com/playlist/560AoqxmtPsadedqGKyKEz https://open.spotify.com/playlist/560AoqxmtPsadedqGKyKEz Not crazy long, gives you a clear explanation about why it happened, and a solid feeling about what life was like back then. Highly, highly recommend.
- bedobi 5y agoYes! The Haitian one is the best!
- nadagast 5y agoMike Duncan and Revolutions is great, endorse! His previous podcast, The History of Rome, is also great.
- bedobi 5y agoThe season on the Haitian Revolution is the best of them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR80t5Jg6Ec&list=PLn2IQnuuK7zIhMead7WCSx5hkTL20YmPV https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR80t5Jg6Ec&list=PLn2IQnuuK7...
- philipov 5y agoMy favorite is the Revolutions of 1848, because it's a non-linear narrative covering many separate revolutions that all occurred at once.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- thatfrenchguy 5y agoWhy would we care?
- dylan604 5y agoYou'd think anytime the French did anything that messed with the Brits would be celebrated. Sure, it also helped the Yanks, but you don't have to care about that part. That sounds pretty French to me
- nomdep 5y agoWho is “we”?
- isk517 5y agoI would assume that thatfrenchguys is talking about his guys who are French.
- edgyquant 5y agoBecause Lafayette lived an amazing life and took part in 3 separate revolutions?
- doe88 5y agoI think there is a simple explanation, he is not that known in France.
- dylan604 5y agoHell, he's not that well known in the US either. I know in my Revolutionary War studies, the French were pretty much a footnote. Not saying all teachings were as poor as mine, but I know the textbooks I used were used in a several other states.
- mmmpop 5y agoYou're joking, right? How many counties and cities in America have "Fayette", if not "Lafayette" in their names? That's our guy here. I was absolutely aware of him via my history classes at least as far back as high school no more than 20 years ago. But perhaps they stopped teaching actual history and relevant characters since then.
- jeffbee 5y agoIndeed, there are more than twenty American cities and towns named for the man, and scores more of townships, places, squares, parks, and streets. There are five streets named Lafayette in New York City alone. The Wikipedia article of American places named for Lafayette doesn't even mention some others that I happen to know like Lafayette Park in San Francisco.
- ctdonath 5y agoYup. Grew up in one of them.
- dylan604 5y agoI don't dispute that at all, but I have a feeling if you were to do a "man on the street" type of poll, it would be pretty telling. If you're willing to stipulate that the readers of HN probably have a greater grasp of history than the larger percentage of the population, I'll stipulate that most HN readers probably have an idea of why Lafayette's name is used to name cities/streets/parks.
- astrobe_ 5y ago> Two centuries later, the liberation of France was turned, by the French imagination, into a French victory, albeit with some gallant support from the Americans No, that's absolutely not the way we think about the liberation of Europe by the American army.
- guggle 5y agoIndeed... and if one is not convinced, a simple walk along the beaches of Normandy will make it very clear.
- danielvf 5y ago[deleted]
- rpmisms 5y agoWow, come on guys, the French helped us out early in our history, and we appreciate it and learn about it in school. At least give us a nod.
- danielvf 5y agoRespect to the French, and sure appreciate the help then.
- natmaka 5y agoThe 'War Nerd' take on this: http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-glory-to-the-french/ http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-glory-to-the-french/
- voidfunc 5y agoThere's a saying, "You're only as good as your last success". The French were instrumental in the American Revolution, but memories are short-lived.
- throw39993 5y agoDid you know that many French described the American liberating force as an 'enemy' > Ils étaient bien décidés à s’installer en France comme en territoire ennemi! de Gaulle Many French also snub remembrance ceremonies for the liberating forces. https://www.nytimes.com/1964/05/31/archives/de-gaulle-repays-20yearold-snub-absence-from-dday-rites-linked-to.html https://www.nytimes.com/1964/05/31/archives/de-gaulle-repays...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- murat124 5y agoIf you're interested in French revolution I highly recommend watching the movie made in 1989. It's in 2 parts, both are on YT, and Lafayette is played by Sam Neill. AFAIK it was the most expensive French movie until some time ago. 1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ofCqCc3S1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ofCqCc3S1s 2- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtK2BnMmUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgtK2BnMmUM https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098238/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098238/
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoRequires age confirmation in the land of the free. Presumably for body parts.
- cm2187 5y agoI second this. The revolution is still a highly politicised topic, but this movie is fairly balanced. It has an international cast so most dialogs are dubbed. I don’t know any better movie on that topic.
- gadrev 5y agoI had happily forgotten about the age restriction check, and Youtube asking for CC info or an ID, until now.
- perl4ever 5y agoI'm curious about how the French celebrate Napoleon, and if anyone has been calling for reinterpretation of him.
- johncoltrane 5y agoWe don't "celebrate" Napoleon or any other historical figure at all. They are mentioned in history books and promptly forgotten after graduation, they have statues that are just part of the scenery, they have streets and high schools named after them that no one give a second thought about, they are talked about for a couple of days when the media figure it is the Nth anniversary of this or that, etc. They are just part of a background the layman doesn't cares about. So titles like "Why don't the French celebrate Lafayette?" tell more about the author/editor of the article than about its subject.
- woodpanel 5y ago> We don't "celebrate" Napoleon Huh, I must have visited a different country then. It seems there isn't a single Bridge, Column or otherwise important building in Paris that hasn't a pompous "N" mounted onto it.
- joconde 5y agoAs parent comment said, it's part of the background. I've probably seen these bridges a hundred times, yet I don't remember the Ns.
- woodpanel 5y agoSo it's a technicality? Technically every bridge bears his symbol, but no, "celebrating" him we are not. I mean you have to willfully interprete the word "celebrating" as people dancing in the streets out of joy to read the parent's parent comment that way. In other words: "It's in the background" rather means it's the foundation upon which (as other comments have pointed out) the French Revolution's winning side's narrative rests.
- billfruit 5y agoI have been trying to read more about the events and personalities involved in the French Revolution and its aftermath. This is a reading list of what I'm trying to follow (in no defined order): 1. A tale of two cities: Dickens. 2. Gods are thirsty: Anatole France. 3. Talleyrand: Duff Cooper. 4. Memories from beyond the Grave: Chateaubriand 5. History of French Revolution: Carlyle.
- watwut 5y agoThey are good, but keep in mind that some of them are fiction. They are not historical account. Another great one is "The Old Regime and the Revolution" by Alexis de Tocqueville. It is about how France worked before the revolution and it explains a lot in a lot of ways.
- mejutoco 5y agoThe count of Montecristo is also set in this period. You might enjoy it.
- billfruit 5y agoCharterhouse of Parma, War and Peace, and Les Miserables as well.
- slim 5y agohttps://archive.is/zUHrr https://archive.is/zUHrr
- ognarb 5y agoHe also created a coup d'état, conquered most of Europe and installed his families as new king of the conquered countries. He also reinstated slavery. In that context, we should probably also thanks Hitler for the Autobahn.
- slim 5y agoBecause he was a Freemason. And Freemasons don't like exposure
- Bayart 5y agoThe Revolution had tons of Freemasons. That's completely besides the point.
- slim 5y agoNone of them is celebrated, to my knowledge
- paride5745 5y agoNo one celebrates Washington???
- raxxorrax 5y agoI know some free masons. Some have silly rituals and get made fun of from time to time. Yet, they are committed to bring about education and that hasn't changed through the centuries. Far less cringe worthy than many student fraternities and I wouldn't say they hide themselves too much, this is mostly based on rumors. Secret societies like the Illuminati are mostly less successful than people believe. I mean everyone knows them by now...
- sam_lowry_ 5y agoDon't forget that he fought in the French civil war on the loosing side. History does not like loosers. OTOH, they do celebrate Lafayette in Vendée where Lafayette is considered a regional hero. The famous theme park Puy du Fou has one of its attractions dedicated to Lafayette.
- ptidhomme 5y agoThat's because the Puy du Fou has a different take on French history than most mainstream views in France. Which I find refreshing. As a side note, I must say the park is a genuine wonder in itself, and I highly recommend it to anyone if you can go there.
- bussiere 5y agoIt's not a differente take it's a wrong take on french hisory : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puy_du_Fou#Une_vision_orient%C3%A9e_de_l'histoire_de_la_Vend%C3%A9e https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puy_du_Fou#Une_vision_orient%C... And a wrong take that try to push a political agenda. It's a fun park but don't take history lesson history here are more that political oriented legends. They are like history channel ...
- sam_lowry_ 5y agoThe mere fact that French Revolution can be told from the point of view of loosers is a revelation to many French. The value of Puy du Fou is in the teaching of pluralism while being hightly entertaing in the process.
- bussiere 5y agoIt's not pluralism when it's false facts. There are science and facts. You can't teach false facts to people.
- sam_lowry_ 5y ago
- Mulpze15 5y agoIf you are interested in Lafayette and eager to travel, I suggest you visit the beautiful town of Le Puy-en-Velay in the Massif Central where his statue is proudly erected. Off the beaten path for most, but rewarding for the others. Then go to tiny village Chavaniac where you'll visit the castle he lived in for a while, that carries his name.
- Narann 5y ago> France, an ancient, highly centralized country with a strong taste for ritual, seems to require a visible symbol of order at its center. It's kinda cliché, IMHO. France (and many European nations) has been build around the belief that centralized power help to ensure political stability. As soon they are no more/less centralized power, every region starts to organize itself and territorial conflicts of interest emerges. It's not about the power to be visible, more than being effective.
- MomoXenosaga 5y agoAre there successful nation states that do not rely on centralized power? Take the US for example after 1865 it was made clear that the US has one capital, one leader and one government.
- rguillebert 5y agoThe book "Why nations fail" makes the claim that centralized institutions (among other things) are necessary for building a prosperous country. It's a very interesting read.
- 317070 5y agoBelgium and Switzerland come to mind? Two highly federalised states.
- AHabe 5y agoWhich is how you end up without a government for 589 days.
- toyg 5y agoSomebody could argue that's a feature, not a bug. But more seriously: if high federalisation means more mechanisms actually end up working fine without top-down directives, isn't that a good thing...? Without going all Bakunin, surely requiring fewer "chiefs" to achieve the same levels of prosperity can be considered a step forward for society.
- neonate 5y agohttps://archive.is/zUHrr https://archive.is/zUHrr
- dlecorfec 5y agoBut on Christmas, we celebrate at the Galeries Lafayette! :)
- 908B64B197 5y agoI lack a lot of cultural context here but, France has a long history. You can trace the current country to the first Frankish kingdoms in 496. And that's excluding the Roman period and the Gaul before it. That's a lot of historical figures over centuries of existence. At some point, you can't celebrate them all.