17 ms·

I sat and chatted to a homeless fella hanging out at Fisherman’s Wharf in SF for a while. He wasn’t from CA, from Missouri IIRC. He was gay, his family disowned

I sat and chatted to a homeless fella hanging out at Fisherman’s Wharf in SF for a while. He wasn’t from CA, from Missouri IIRC. He was gay, his family disowned him, he got into drugs. He got bitter, did some nasty stuff to people he hated, did some other misguided things and basically had hit rock bottom. I asked him what he thought would be needed to bring him out of homelessness and keep him inside society. He said he didn’t want that, he said he enjoyed being homeless. He was sleeping in a squat house, he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc. How does society help someone with that view? Here in Glasgow, Scotland we have a relatable challenge. There’s 14 people who refuse accommodation. They are long term homeless, all of them have mental issues and most have addiction problems. There’s over 100 people most nights take up access to a homeless shelter in Glasgow but they accept the help available and on average only spend 3 nights before going into proper accommodation and no longer need the shelter’s help. So It’s not that there’s no systems in place but that hardcore of 14 people who want to live on the streets have no obvious way forward. It’s played on my mind many times over the years, how do you help someone in that scenario? I did a short stint with a charity who supports some folks who have been given emergency housing. I was in one of the blocks of flats in Paisley one day helping deliver some food shopping, they’re only just habitable these emergency apartments - extremely basic inside. I understand why, they get trashed often by residents and so the council can’t afford to make them nice. It’s quite a bleak outlook for these folks even if they did decide they want to live indoors again. This is a long post to say the reality seems like there’s no quick fix or easy win. If you do nothing you make things worse. If you do something, it might not be wanted.

genocidicbunny 5y ago
> I asked him what he thought would be needed to bring him out of homelessness and keep him inside society. He said he didn’t want that, he said he enjoyed being homeless. He was sleeping in a squat house, he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc. > How does society help someone with that view? To play devil's advocate -- does society need to help someone like that right away? It sounds like this man isn't in a great place, but content with what he has. Not so sound callous, but there's likely a deeper rock bottom he can hit -- if he ever gets injured or sick for example. Once that happens he may change his mind, but until then there's likely very little to nothing you can do.
WalterBright 5y ago
> It’s played on my mind many times over the years, how do you help someone in that scenario? Offer them help. If they refuse, respect their rights, and move on.
- twh270 5y ago
  I'm mostly in agreement with that, as I follow a "live and let live" philosophy. Where I part ways with that binary choice is when the person is actively a menace to themselves or others; their behavior has a 'high' cost to society. I can't get on board with respecting someone's right to self-determination when they repeatedly and regularly damage property, attack people, or are otherwise damaging to the fabric of society. In this case I believe the person has lost some of their right to self-determination. What to do about it? I don't really know; software development is my gig so this is far outside my expertise. But from what I observe, prison as it currently is implemented doesn't work, and doing nothing isn't working either. Given the right environment and help, I'd hope that some (many? most?) can transform themselves and become healthy or at least functional in society. Some options that seem to help: a 12-step program, CBT and other therapy, drugs, low-dose hallucinogens (LSD, mushrooms, etc.).
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    Nobody has a right to commit crimes. If they do, the police should deal with it. What I was referring to about rights is people have a right to do as they please as long as they are not infringing on other peoples' rights. Rights also apply to legally competent adults. For people who are not legally competent, the state is empowered to make decisions and force it on them, though of course this is a dangerous tool.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  And then when they defecate on your doorstep and urinate on your porch, what do you do? Offer them treatment, they refuse, so you "respect their rights" and move on? Wash, rinse, repeat? It is strange that people have absolutely no problem banning camping in national parks but think it is a human right to do it in urban areas. Cities, in order to survive, need to enforce standards of behavior, and those who flaunt those standards need to be coerced into following them if there is to be a large number of people living in a small urban area.
dillondoyle 5y ago
Glasgow sounds like they are doing great by those numbers compared to at least my city. In my city subReddit I advocated for something that sounds similar; yes housing even for addicts who will shoot up in their new place. Got downvoted. Also people bitter that rent is unaffordable for them too and said no one is entitled to free or reduced rent, since they don't get that themselves. though kind of my point housing should be a human right produced by society to everyone without judgement. I think there is a misguided paternalistic moral-crusading factor in the states that holds back things like housing first, harm reduction strategies & treatment.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  Both from reading/researching and talking with people who work directly with the homeless locally, this seems to be the crux. The really sad thing is just building the housing would be cheaper than what we're doing currently. But as soon as the city proposes it the NIMBYs come out like a hurricane refusing to allow it. Salt Lake City is an instructive example. They've made a huge impact on homelessness there with a housing centric strategy.
  - dillondoyle 5y ago
    Totally! SLC looks increasingly awesome! In Denver we have a hidden agenda ballot measure coming up that would allow residents to sue the city if they didn't clear out homeless camps in 72 hours, while also putting into law a maximum cap of only four outdoor homeless spaces (parking lots) - while allowing amenities like porta-potties! Importantly the measure doesn't allocate money OR require these spaces. Just limits the max number the city can have ;( funded by Republican PAC. Oh and when a church tried to put one of the mini-camps in their parking lot in a nice neighborhood, the neighbors sued. It would be so much cheaper just to continue buying old motels and building apartments. Give them the keys, try to help after that. Free & easy suboxone and immediate access to addiction/mental/health treatment if they want it. Naloxone on stand by with nurses in concentrated areas (e.g. an apartment block) would save a ton of money too, not to mention save lives... https://www.denvervoice.org/archive/2021/7/14/dark-money-group-funding-denver-homeless-ballot-initiative https://www.denvervoice.org/archive/2021/7/14/dark-money-gro...
chrisseaton 5y ago
As long as they aren’t harming anyone why can’t you respect their wishes and leave them alone if that’s what they want? What if someone decided you needed help even after you made it clear you didn’t want it?
- bluGill 5y ago
  How do they do that and get their homeless number to zero?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    As long as the homeless people have been offered help and are not harming others why do you feel the need to do anything to them? Why does a class of person need to be reduced to ‘zero’? What if someone decided people like you had to be reduced to zero?
    - burnished 5y ago
      Lets talk about harm. Street people don't have places to dispose of needles, they don't have access to sanitation or toilettes, frequently are struggling with mental health issues in loud and sometimes frightening fashions, oh and I guess if you're a woman in that position you're in incredible danger. With that in mind, is it more clear why other people wouldn't want any one to live like that?
      - chrisseaton 5y ago
        I already said > As long as the homeless people have been offered help and are not harming others So I don’t know why you’re giving examples where they are causing harm.
        burnished 5y ago
        Because your example is just a distraction, no one cares about the people just minding their own business not causing any (visible) problems. Almost definitionally when we're talking about this we are talking about the people that are harming others, either directly or indirectly.
muh_gradle 5y ago
For those that are mentally ill, and especially if they are violent, you force them to get the psychiatric help that they need. It's an unpopular opinion. But frankly it's long overdue. For those that have the option to go to shelters, receive plenty of benefits (which SF most definitely provides) but prefer to be homeless, they need to be separated from major city areas where tourists, business people, and every day people want to live peacefully. I've seen enough of this the last few times I've been to SF and the bay area.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > you force them to get the psychiatric help that they need The problem is that there’s a long history of people labelling all sorts of things they don’t like as being a mental illness and using that as an excuse to use treatment as violence against them. We called homosexuality a mental illness until very recently and forced people to have violent treatment for it, for example.
  - muh_gradle 5y ago
    If someone is having an episode and causing violence onto other people, we're not gonna look at this 20 years later and question if this isn't a mental illness. We absolutely know what the issue is here, and the situation that I described is not unheard of.
    - jawarner 5y ago
      Given that causing violence onto other people is illegal, I suppose what you're talking about could be thought of as a change to the prison system so that it's designed to improve the (mental) health of people committed, rather than just being punitive.
  - dcolkitt 5y ago
    As an addendum, I’ll also add that the psychiatric system was the main Avenue for suppressing dissidents in the post-Brezhnev USSR.
- 5y ago
timoth3y 5y ago
> It’s played on my mind many times over the years, how do you help someone in that scenario? Acceptance? If he's clean, groomed, not bothering people, and OK with is life as it is, maybe there is room for him in society. I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that we all agree that "the homeless problem" should be solved, but we can't agree on what "the problem" is. To some it's "I don't want to see and be bothered by homeless people"to others its "people are suffering needlessly" to others its "a wealthy nation like ours should be able to provide shelter to everyone" to others its some combination. It's rare to hear a political plan to "solve homelessness" that addresses the people who want to be homeless.
- proc0 5y ago
  How about hygiene? Where do you think they relieve themselves? How many times a day do you think they'll need to use a toilet and how many times do they find one? Hint: they don't really care. Source: experience living in SF.
  - edderly 5y ago
    I think you make a mistake by treating homeless people as an homogenous group. See: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-grate/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-gr... "ALEXANDER THE GRATE: So, one thing about food insecurity — everybody talks about that, but nobody mentions toilet insecurity. What comes in has got to go out, and that’s not readily . . . Before the Eisenhower Memorial, with a free restroom here — that’s back up by the resources by the way — the closest one to the area was at the Washington Monument, a mile away, basically."
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ryanobjc 5y ago
Services for the homeless come with a lot of strings attached, a lot more than you'd think, including a bunch of strings that people who are homed would never accept in their own house. So it's not as simple as homeless people don't want homes, it's because they want freedom.
spfzero 5y ago
Maybe the problem is the urge to “help”? As you say, if they don’t want it, is it really help? We have a bias to thinking that if we wouldn’t be happy in that situation, then they must also be unhappy. Not necessarily.
spoonjim 5y ago
You forcibly institutionalize them in a humane and properly funded institution. The public streets are not a place for untreated drug addicts and the mentally ill.
burnished 5y ago
Write 'em off. If they aren't causing problems then ignore them. If they are causing problems, well, probably beat them and kick them out of town. Its going to be that or jail them and some how jail seems crueler than corporal punishment and banishment. I say this because I don't think its crazy or irrational to not want to be a part of society at large, but that society in general depends on people wanting to participate and do good by each other and does not have graceful mechanisms for dealing with people that want to fuck that up. Thinking more broadly, I suspect you could help people not get to that point with stronger community bonds. If they saw value in society then they'd probably participate right?
forgotmypw17 5y ago
Maybe things are different in Glasgow, but I've talked to many people with shelter experience in the U.S., and rarely heard anything good, mostly bad. And it all sounds quite similar to what Orwell wrote about shelters over 100 years ago... dangerous, prison-like places with rules, restrictions, and abuse. It's pretty much a guarantee that you'll experience violence and your belongings will get stolen or damaged, sometimes by the staff themselves. Compare that to what's essentially minimal camping in the city, with no bears and plenty of quality food... You couldn't pay me enough to go to a shelter.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc. > How does society help someone with that view? What do you mean by "help"? What's the problem?

genocidicbunny 5y ago

> I asked him what he thought would be needed to bring him out of homelessness and keep him inside society. He said he didn’t want that, he said he enjoyed being homeless. He was sleeping in a squat house, he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc. > How does society help someone with that view? To play devil's advocate -- does society need to help someone like that right away? It sounds like this man isn't in a great place, but content with what he has. Not so sound callous, but there's likely a deeper rock bottom he can hit -- if he ever gets injured or sick for example. Once that happens he may change his mind, but until then there's likely very little to nothing you can do.

WalterBright 5y ago

> It’s played on my mind many times over the years, how do you help someone in that scenario? Offer them help. If they refuse, respect their rights, and move on.

twh270 5y ago
I'm mostly in agreement with that, as I follow a "live and let live" philosophy. Where I part ways with that binary choice is when the person is actively a menace to themselves or others; their behavior has a 'high' cost to society. I can't get on board with respecting someone's right to self-determination when they repeatedly and regularly damage property, attack people, or are otherwise damaging to the fabric of society. In this case I believe the person has lost some of their right to self-determination. What to do about it? I don't really know; software development is my gig so this is far outside my expertise. But from what I observe, prison as it currently is implemented doesn't work, and doing nothing isn't working either. Given the right environment and help, I'd hope that some (many? most?) can transform themselves and become healthy or at least functional in society. Some options that seem to help: a 12-step program, CBT and other therapy, drugs, low-dose hallucinogens (LSD, mushrooms, etc.).
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Nobody has a right to commit crimes. If they do, the police should deal with it. What I was referring to about rights is people have a right to do as they please as long as they are not infringing on other peoples' rights. Rights also apply to legally competent adults. For people who are not legally competent, the state is empowered to make decisions and force it on them, though of course this is a dangerous tool.
rsj_hn 5y ago
And then when they defecate on your doorstep and urinate on your porch, what do you do? Offer them treatment, they refuse, so you "respect their rights" and move on? Wash, rinse, repeat? It is strange that people have absolutely no problem banning camping in national parks but think it is a human right to do it in urban areas. Cities, in order to survive, need to enforce standards of behavior, and those who flaunt those standards need to be coerced into following them if there is to be a large number of people living in a small urban area.

dillondoyle 5y ago

Glasgow sounds like they are doing great by those numbers compared to at least my city. In my city subReddit I advocated for something that sounds similar; yes housing even for addicts who will shoot up in their new place. Got downvoted. Also people bitter that rent is unaffordable for them too and said no one is entitled to free or reduced rent, since they don't get that themselves. though kind of my point housing should be a human right produced by society to everyone without judgement. I think there is a misguided paternalistic moral-crusading factor in the states that holds back things like housing first, harm reduction strategies & treatment.

jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
Both from reading/researching and talking with people who work directly with the homeless locally, this seems to be the crux. The really sad thing is just building the housing would be cheaper than what we're doing currently. But as soon as the city proposes it the NIMBYs come out like a hurricane refusing to allow it. Salt Lake City is an instructive example. They've made a huge impact on homelessness there with a housing centric strategy.
- dillondoyle 5y ago
  Totally! SLC looks increasingly awesome! In Denver we have a hidden agenda ballot measure coming up that would allow residents to sue the city if they didn't clear out homeless camps in 72 hours, while also putting into law a maximum cap of only four outdoor homeless spaces (parking lots) - while allowing amenities like porta-potties! Importantly the measure doesn't allocate money OR require these spaces. Just limits the max number the city can have ;( funded by Republican PAC. Oh and when a church tried to put one of the mini-camps in their parking lot in a nice neighborhood, the neighbors sued. It would be so much cheaper just to continue buying old motels and building apartments. Give them the keys, try to help after that. Free & easy suboxone and immediate access to addiction/mental/health treatment if they want it. Naloxone on stand by with nurses in concentrated areas (e.g. an apartment block) would save a ton of money too, not to mention save lives... https://www.denvervoice.org/archive/2021/7/14/dark-money-group-funding-denver-homeless-ballot-initiative https://www.denvervoice.org/archive/2021/7/14/dark-money-gro...

chrisseaton 5y ago

As long as they aren’t harming anyone why can’t you respect their wishes and leave them alone if that’s what they want? What if someone decided you needed help even after you made it clear you didn’t want it?

bluGill 5y ago
How do they do that and get their homeless number to zero?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  As long as the homeless people have been offered help and are not harming others why do you feel the need to do anything to them? Why does a class of person need to be reduced to ‘zero’? What if someone decided people like you had to be reduced to zero?
  - burnished 5y ago
    Lets talk about harm. Street people don't have places to dispose of needles, they don't have access to sanitation or toilettes, frequently are struggling with mental health issues in loud and sometimes frightening fashions, oh and I guess if you're a woman in that position you're in incredible danger. With that in mind, is it more clear why other people wouldn't want any one to live like that?
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      I already said > As long as the homeless people have been offered help and are not harming others So I don’t know why you’re giving examples where they are causing harm.
      - burnished 5y ago
        Because your example is just a distraction, no one cares about the people just minding their own business not causing any (visible) problems. Almost definitionally when we're talking about this we are talking about the people that are harming others, either directly or indirectly.

muh_gradle 5y ago

For those that are mentally ill, and especially if they are violent, you force them to get the psychiatric help that they need. It's an unpopular opinion. But frankly it's long overdue. For those that have the option to go to shelters, receive plenty of benefits (which SF most definitely provides) but prefer to be homeless, they need to be separated from major city areas where tourists, business people, and every day people want to live peacefully. I've seen enough of this the last few times I've been to SF and the bay area.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> you force them to get the psychiatric help that they need The problem is that there’s a long history of people labelling all sorts of things they don’t like as being a mental illness and using that as an excuse to use treatment as violence against them. We called homosexuality a mental illness until very recently and forced people to have violent treatment for it, for example.
- muh_gradle 5y ago
  If someone is having an episode and causing violence onto other people, we're not gonna look at this 20 years later and question if this isn't a mental illness. We absolutely know what the issue is here, and the situation that I described is not unheard of.
  - jawarner 5y ago
    Given that causing violence onto other people is illegal, I suppose what you're talking about could be thought of as a change to the prison system so that it's designed to improve the (mental) health of people committed, rather than just being punitive.
- dcolkitt 5y ago
  As an addendum, I’ll also add that the psychiatric system was the main Avenue for suppressing dissidents in the post-Brezhnev USSR.
5y ago

timoth3y 5y ago

> It’s played on my mind many times over the years, how do you help someone in that scenario? Acceptance? If he's clean, groomed, not bothering people, and OK with is life as it is, maybe there is room for him in society. I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that we all agree that "the homeless problem" should be solved, but we can't agree on what "the problem" is. To some it's "I don't want to see and be bothered by homeless people"to others its "people are suffering needlessly" to others its "a wealthy nation like ours should be able to provide shelter to everyone" to others its some combination. It's rare to hear a political plan to "solve homelessness" that addresses the people who want to be homeless.

proc0 5y ago
How about hygiene? Where do you think they relieve themselves? How many times a day do you think they'll need to use a toilet and how many times do they find one? Hint: they don't really care. Source: experience living in SF.
- edderly 5y ago
  I think you make a mistake by treating homeless people as an homogenous group. See: https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-grate/ https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/alexander-the-gr... "ALEXANDER THE GRATE: So, one thing about food insecurity — everybody talks about that, but nobody mentions toilet insecurity. What comes in has got to go out, and that’s not readily . . . Before the Eisenhower Memorial, with a free restroom here — that’s back up by the resources by the way — the closest one to the area was at the Washington Monument, a mile away, basically."
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

ryanobjc 5y ago

Services for the homeless come with a lot of strings attached, a lot more than you'd think, including a bunch of strings that people who are homed would never accept in their own house. So it's not as simple as homeless people don't want homes, it's because they want freedom.

spfzero 5y ago

Maybe the problem is the urge to “help”? As you say, if they don’t want it, is it really help? We have a bias to thinking that if we wouldn’t be happy in that situation, then they must also be unhappy. Not necessarily.

spoonjim 5y ago

You forcibly institutionalize them in a humane and properly funded institution. The public streets are not a place for untreated drug addicts and the mentally ill.

burnished 5y ago

Write 'em off. If they aren't causing problems then ignore them. If they are causing problems, well, probably beat them and kick them out of town. Its going to be that or jail them and some how jail seems crueler than corporal punishment and banishment. I say this because I don't think its crazy or irrational to not want to be a part of society at large, but that society in general depends on people wanting to participate and do good by each other and does not have graceful mechanisms for dealing with people that want to fuck that up. Thinking more broadly, I suspect you could help people not get to that point with stronger community bonds. If they saw value in society then they'd probably participate right?

forgotmypw17 5y ago

Maybe things are different in Glasgow, but I've talked to many people with shelter experience in the U.S., and rarely heard anything good, mostly bad. And it all sounds quite similar to what Orwell wrote about shelters over 100 years ago... dangerous, prison-like places with rules, restrictions, and abuse. It's pretty much a guarantee that you'll experience violence and your belongings will get stolen or damaged, sometimes by the staff themselves. Compare that to what's essentially minimal camping in the city, with no bears and plenty of quality food... You couldn't pay me enough to go to a shelter.

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> he was able to score enough cash from tourists to support his drugs habit, the police left him alone because he didn’t look out of place, he was clean, groomed etc. > How does society help someone with that view? What do you mean by "help"? What's the problem?