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ASML, a $300B Dutch firm, makes the machines that make semiconductors
- orangepanda 5y agoShame seeing Twitter going the way of pinterest. I’ll assume the rest of the thread is just as informative.
- hobs 5y agoI genuinely dont understand this comment - twitter is already pretty noisy - why would it "go in the way of pinterest"?
- seedless-sensat 5y agoYou need to login to show the whole thread. I hit the same wall. Twitter was already a terrible medium for these kinds of posts, now it just got worse.
- hobs 5y agoAh, thank you that makes more sense.
- sbarre 5y agoSomeone posted a third-party thread-unroll link elsewhere in the discussion, I don't think that required a login?
- hollerith 5y agoI didn't need to log in: I got the rest of the thread by following the link "see rest of this thread". That link though is easy to miss, what with being somewhere mid-page and being surrounded by elements that are visually much louder, and I, too, wish that no one here would submit or upvote links to Twitter.
- as1mov 5y agoTwitter seems to be doing some kind of A/B testing. Clicking the "See rest of this thread", pops up a login window, which on being closed takes you back to the initial page.
- seedless-sensat 5y agoI did find the link, but was blocked by a login popup. It must be an A/B test.
- joehartshorn 5y agoI had this issue, sussed it in about 10 min. If you're in a Chrome-based browser (incl Brave), DL the Ublock Origin extension, then: Extension options > "My Filters" > add one of the filters in the reddit thread linked. (https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/p5lgcv/twitter_new_filters_needed_annoying_pop/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/uBlockOrigin/comments/p5lgcv/twitte...)
- nabakin 5y agoIf you open the link you click in a new tab, you can get past it.
- _Microft 5y agoHere it is: https://nitter.net/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688 https://nitter.net/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688
- hedberg10 5y agoTwitter should not be an allowed source. Same with Pinterest in image search or Instagram.
- c_hagau 5y agoClearing the twitter.com cookie worked for me.
- natdempk 5y agoMirror: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429464889307762688.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1429464889307762688.html
- sharken 5y agoSeems like quite a risk to only have one company provide these machines. Semiconductor companies seem to follow the same trend, the major contributing factor seems to be the patent portfolio needed to secure cross-licensing deals. It looks like patents are actively preventing new companies in the semiconductor business.
- hughrr 5y agoI think the extreme cost and risk to enter the business is the key issue.
- cadence- 5y agoSounds like something governments could help with.
- hughrr 5y agoIndeed. Only time that happened was in East Germany and it didn’t work out too good.
- SkyMarshal 5y agoThat wasn't the only time.
- Bootvis 5y agoIt’s quite a bit more nuanced. I recommend reading some work by Mariana Mazzucato to get some perspective. https://www.google.com/search?q=mariana%20mazzucato https://www.google.com/search?q=mariana%20mazzucato
- cinntaile 5y agoWhich book would you recommend?
- 5y ago
- s1291 5y agoFortunately, I have heard of ASML a few days ago thanks to this video: https://youtu.be/hLwGtucsTms?t=1099 https://youtu.be/hLwGtucsTms?t=1099
- sneak 5y agoTwitter won't show complete threads now without an account. :( Twitter accounts basically de facto require a phone number, or they get suspended.
- throwaway61223 5y agoYou can replace twitter.com w/nitter.eu to see things. https://nitter.eu/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688 https://nitter.eu/trungtphan/status/1429464889307762688
- hiram112 5y agoYep, I feel bad for many of the less technical "rubes" who still believe they're somewhat anonymous on the internet if they, e.g. use Incognito (which Google went out of their way to market as such), or buy some dubious VPN service, or use disposable emails on Reddit, Twitter, etc. accounts. You are simply not anonymous on any site you visit or search you make or place you go with your phone. The tech giants and their "data sharing partners" can correlate you a dozen ways, and most of that is by design via "features" like JS APIs and browser data that is included in every request. Those of us paying attention know that Twitter, Reddit, Google, FB, and the rest will turn over your real ID to law enforcement, no questions asked. And it won't be long now 'till some conservative whistle blower from Google or Twitter leaks the proof that the tech giants - via the more politically inclined activists and operatives who now work in their executive offices - have created blacklists which are used to ensure no wrong-thinkers (e.g. Trump supporters) are hired or employed at their own companies. And then it will be leaked that these same blacklists were traded and sold off to their "partners", and are being used for similar purposes in all of corporate America. And from there, we know how this story ends, though I'm not sure the activists enabling it understand that things won't turn out well for them either.
- shadilay 5y agoI think it's a matter of the data lords not yet playing their hand. We know they have this data but they haven't used it yet in any high profile case. They're just still in the extend phase.
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- FlorianRappl 5y agoASML is a great company. What should be stressed is that the lenses are coming from Zeiss SMT, which is a strategic partner of ASML since 1997. In fact, they are so important that ASML bought a significant part of the Carl Zeiss subsidiary some years ago. You can't get a pretty good video about the relationship and EUV at: https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology/markets-partners/strategic-partnership.html https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology...
- Keyframe 5y agoSchott (glass) / Zeiss (lens) combo is extremely important in a lot of industries. Most people probably heard about them through photography or spectacles.
- s0rce 5y agoI'm guessing, though not 100% certain, that EUV uses mirrors and not lenses, although still could be based on glass substrates.
- frankchn 5y agoYeah EUV uses mirrors, which Zeiss also supplies: https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology/products-solutions/semiconductor-manufacturing-optics/lithography_13_5_nanometer0/starlith--euv-optics.html https://www.zeiss.com/semiconductor-manufacturing-technology.... There is an introductory PDF presentation from Zeiss about their product for EUVs: https://www.euvlitho.com/2019/P24.pdf https://www.euvlitho.com/2019/P24.pdf
- royjacobs 5y agoAh yes, ASML. I have a number of friends and ex-colleagues who work there. Unsurprisingly, due to their importance, ASML are extremely well-known inside of the Netherlands. It's one of those companies that spun out of Philips Electronics and became very successful (NXP is another good example). A lot of research and development is still going on in the area where Philips had their research labs. If you're curious to see what kind of high-tech is being worked on in the "Dutch silicon valley" I suggest you Google "Brainport Eindhoven" or "High Tech Campus Eindhoven".
- as1mov 5y agoKinda off-topic but what's it like working at ASML? They are hiring for a lot of software roles at the moment. I've been mulling about applying there but from the outside it looks very bureaucratic (at least that's what the Glassdoor reviews seem to indicate).
- br4m 5y agoAs someone who currently works there it is indeed bureaucratic. But I also feel like it is an environment that focuses less on cost/money and optimizes for the highest quality. I.e., there is room to explore the best way of doing something and there is less pressure to do it ASAP or for the lowest price.
- as1mov 5y agoAh fair enough, thanks for the insight. I've worked in a heavily regulated domain for the past few years and just wanted a change to something different. Perhaps I'll still give it a shot if nothing else turns up.
- megablast 5y agoSo, just like any rich company really.
- nzmsv 5y agoNo, companies can be rich and still have a culture of cutting corners and rushing stuff to market.
- xxpor 5y agoI feel like ASML is the company that almost everyone who would care has heard of at this point. Granted, I hadn't heard of them 3 years ago, even though I work directly with HW designers. Its just funny how they're going through the hype cycle in their level of public awareness. Give it 3 years and (hopefully) the "general public" won't have to care about them again, because chip shortages are resolved :)
- xxpor 5y agoThinking about it more, I don't think I'd even heard of TSMC until 2014 or 2015. Not entirely sure.
- bserge 5y agoNot only TSMC, a lot of companies were just "the cheap Asian factories mass producing our stuff" a decade ago, and even 6 years ago. Then they came out and said "you know what, we can do fine without you", to western shocked Pikachu faces.
- ren_engineer 5y agoASML will matter for decades unless a competitor surpasses them. US is already blocking them from exporting to China https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from-the-dutch-the-u-s-said-no-11626514513 https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-wants-a-chip-machine-from... the company is probably as important as TSMC in terms of geopolitics now
- erichocean 5y ago> US is already blocking them from exporting to China Which works until China invades Taiwan. Then what?
- philjohn 5y agoSeeing as you need ASML people to run these effectively, maintain them, repair them - I'm guessing we will see a massive global semiconductor shortage if China invades that makes this year look like a cakewalk.
- rapsey 5y agoSo what does TSMC then do that no one else can replicate if they use these machines?
- Fronzie 5y agoCalibration and following working procedures. The lithography machines have endless knobs to tune. It has to be done well to get a decent yield out of a factory.
- rapsey 5y agoSeems a bit simplified...
- woudsma 5y agoApparently the machines are pretty hard to replicate, the company (ASML) has had to deal with a couple of corporate espionage cases in the past[0]. [0]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid-met-de-spionage-bij-asml-te-maken https://nos.nl/artikel/2280228-wat-heeft-de-chinese-overheid... (in Dutch)
- rapsey 5y agoWhat I meant was TSMC uses these machines. Anyone else (except the Chinese I guess?) can also use these machines. What is the TSMC secret sauce that no one else can match?
- Stevvo 5y agoThink of these machines as being what a paint brush is to an artist; it's just a tool. Anyone can buy a paintbrush, but it takes much skill and experience to paint a masterpiece. Even if you have a masterpiece in your possession to try and copy, you will fail.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y agoIt's not a single thing, it's everything. State of the art fabs require precision control of an incredible number of process steps each with an incredible number of tunable dimensions. These machines are just one piece of the puzzle. A key piece, but buying the machines does not a fab make.
- cushychicken 5y agoASML's first EUV machine contract closure was for $15 bil, and the contract explicitly stipulated that $3bil was just for the purpose of acquiring three specialty Boeing 747s for shipping the machines to the clients. Each chunk of the machine must be shipped in vacuum. It takes about 40 chunks to make a complete EUV lithography machine. Each is about the equivalent mass of a school bus.
- pas 5y agoWhy the need for special 747s? Can't they put each chunk into a shipping container sized steel box and seal it vacuum tight, then ship that with regular 747s?
- sangnoir 5y agoI suspect their equipment is susceptible to vibrations on a regular 747. I bet most of what makes their 747's special is dampening. Also, packing and unpacking the equipment increases the chance of things going wrong.
- sroussey 5y agoSize issues. If I remember correctly, the machines are designed to fit the plane and vis-a-versa. So they will be smaller on top to fit the curvature of the plane body, for example
- doikor 5y agoSplitting some of the parts into smaller parts will expose the insides to outside air which brings some serious cleanliness issues. The mirrors especially will get destroyed instantly by heat if there is any dirt on them when they are flashed by EUV.
- pas 5y agoI imagine they do the disassembly and packaging in a clean room. (At least for now the technicians require air :D) Then the packages are vacuum pumped, sealed, then shipped. Then at the destination fab they are assembled again in a clean room. Yeah, I remember the articles about how insane the requirements are to protect masks: https://semiengineering.com/euv-pellicles-finally-ready/ https://semiengineering.com/euv-pellicles-finally-ready/
- dataflow 5y agoCan someone explain why Intel needs TSMC to make their chips? Why can't they just buy ASML's machines and use them to make their own chips?
- moonbas3 5y agoIntel already has a fab which makes it's own chips. They can print, their problem is the design process on smaller nodes.
- dataflow 5y agoI know they have had fabs, but they decided to go with TSMC recently, and that's what I was wondering about. Going with TSMC doesn't mean TSMC does their designs too, does it?
- DSingularity 5y agoNo. TSMC doesn’t design chips. It manufactures them.
- dataflow 5y agoThanks, that was my understanding too.
- Throwawayaerlei 5y agoA bit on how this played out: what they call their first 10nm node which in its third iteration has been named Intel 7 was more aggressive than TSMC's first 7 nm node, and failed for many years to economically produce chips. Both use 193 nm UV lithography, and then TSMC made a more aggressive than Intel's node using some EUV from ASML, and both TSMC nodes worked. Now TSMC is two major nodes ahead with 3 nm risk production credibly scheduled for this year and mass production next year, with Intel said to be buying a lot of that. What was Intel's still delayed 7 nm node, the first to use EUV, is now named Intel 4. I've not looked at it closely, but it looks like something equivalent to TSMC 3 nm nodes is scheduled as Intel 20A for angstrom and 18A, sometime in 2024 and 2025. I have yet to see anything that convinces me Intel will regain its ability to make state of the art logic chips, which for many generations was one of their most important advantages, allowing them to beat "smarter" CPU designs with their own CPUs being manufactured 1-2 nodes ahead of everyone else. It will be interesting if some day the true story of how this happened is revealed.
- devoutsalsa 5y agoI was thinking that it’s inefficient to transport equipment from the Netherlands to mostly Asia, but any place they’d be located would be importing part from around the world. And the cost to ship one of these things is probably a rounding error in the price. It’d be interesting for them to partner with Antonov to build a second An-225. Maybe the economics would make sense instead of needing to ship via multiple 747s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225_Mriya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonov_An-225_Mriya
- qeternity 5y agoI think you answered your own question: 747s are a stable, mature platform. Shipping is a rather insignificant cost, so it doesn’t make sense to take risks unnecessarily.
- greenfellowman 5y agoI was bullish on Cymer back in the mid to late 90s. The stock did nothing (well maybe doubled) until ASML bought the m, perhaps then doubling the stock price. I was so frustrated because Cymer’s light source was the enabler of smaller and faster chips. Anyone have a theory why Cymer never had a great ROI, compared to other equipment makers? Nikon and Cannon were already enormous, and Applied Materials, KLA-tencore, and others were already big and faced competition.
- wombatmobile 5y agoHow ASML Builds a $150 Million EUV Machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJIO7aRXUCg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJIO7aRXUCg
- dharma1 5y agoWhat’s next after EUV? X-ray?
- relaxing 5y agoThere are a few candidates including X-rays. There’s still plenty of gains to be made in EUV technology before we get there though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-generation_lithography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next-generation_lithography
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y agoHerein is described the most convenient manner to generate the precise wavelength of light required to print on EUV photomask: - A molten tin droplet drops into a vacuum - It's pulsed by a high-power (25kW) laser - Tin atoms are ionized, creating plasma - A precision ground concave mirror captures EUV radiation emitted by plasma - The Mirror transfers EUV to wafer (wavelength=13.5 nanometers, basically X-ray level, through a series of reducing lenses...)
- ragebol 5y agoApparently, they zap the tin droplet with a soft pulse first to flatten it before hitting it with a big pulse to make the plasma. A former colleague of mine worked on tuning the laser-hitting -droplet process. Happens inside a vacuum of course, but after some time the vacuum would always drop. Turns out that when you miss the droplet often enough and thus hit the steel walls of the chamber, eventually you'll punch through the walls. And not be able to hold a vacuum this way. Not sure of just a tall story or true...
- 11thEarlOfMar 5y agoThe vacuum chamber is likely aluminum. Tin melts at 232 C, aluminum at 660 C. Vaporizing the tin could require enough power in the laser to melt the aluminum. It seems feasible to me, anyway, and is certainly sounds like the kind of thing that happens in equipment development.
- rdxm 5y agoheh. just now figuring this out? that's good...
- sev 5y agoDo these machines not need semiconductors to function?
- southerntofu 5y agoSure, they must have some electronics, much like a compiler is usually compiled using a previously-compiled compiler.
- rivo 5y agoA few highlights from a conversation with a friend who works for Zeiss and regularly deals with ASML (take this with a grain of salt, I may have misunderstood some of it and he also may not be an expert in all of these areas): - The lenses (actually mirrors for EUV) only demagnify by a factor of 4. So your wafer template is already extremely small and costs millions to produce. - 13.5nm is pretty much the smallest wavelength you can reasonably handle. If you want to go smaller, you have to build a particle accelerator. (He heard that from a colleague, wasn't sure how much of that was actually true.) - The prices in this Twitter thread are pretty spot on. The EU wants to invest into chip making to become more independent in this area. But the sums they're talking about wouldn't even pay for one such machine. Politicians don't seem to be aware of the dimensions we're talking about here. - Also in the thread, ASML has a monopoly on this tech. Others have not invested into EUV and by now, it's pretty much impossible for anybody to catch up. - Everyone's hiring like crazy atm. He started home office during Covid and now Zeiss says he can't even go back to the office because they don't have enough office space anymore. He doesn't mind. Everyone's distributed all over the place anyway so whether he does conference calls at the office or at home makes no difference. - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage.
- BenoitP 5y ago> - He said they're not very affected by the chip shortage. You bet! TSMC/Intel/Samsung must give them for free; also give them the first of each batch they make, as samples to be analyzed.
- bradknowles 5y agoASML makes the machines that make the chips. They can do their own runs of whatever chips they need, because they have to fully test the multi-million dollar machines before they disassemble them and ship them out.
- atq2119 5y agoThat's not how it works. The light source and steppers are important, yes, but there's much more to a fab. Think of all the chemistry, for one thing. What you claim is basically like saying a robotics company could just build their own trucks, because the truck companies use their robots for the truck factories.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rad_gruchalski 5y agoHere’s a great YouTube video about the technology ASML is building: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0gMdGrVteI.
- mooreds 5y agoI have a friend who is in the patent office and specializes in lithography. He knows this company :)
- janmo 5y agoThis makes me wonder, why don't they produce semiconductors themselves instead of selling the machines to produce them?
- catmanjan 5y agoI imagine its a bit like selling pickaxes in a mining boom
- lotsofpulp 5y agoI imagine it is because it is more economical for the chips to be made near the cheaper labor where the end product is manufactured.
- xiphias2 5y agoIt could be done with a merger with TSMC (or Samsung), but at this scale these companies are critical for the countries themselves. A merger like this would be extremely political.
- southerntofu 5y ago> why don't they produce semiconductors themselves Apart from the different field of expertise at play (think manufacturing cooking equipment vs running a full-scale canteen), there's also environmental concerns. Looks like ASML has outsourced much of the production of key components to 3rd-party countries. Electronics manufacturing has a considerable environmental impact (see articles about chemical soil/water pollution in china) and global north countries are happy to have others exploit their population and damage their environment in their place. This is similar to how the "recycling" industry operates.
- joshAg 5y agoThis video is in the same vein, and does a great job putting this machine into perspective in teh chip making process, but it's sadly a decade old now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGFhc8R_uO4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGFhc8R_uO4
- bartimus 5y agoThe reason ASML is one of the few successful tech companies in Holland is because this type of engineering is so far distanced from consumer products. As soon as consumers come into play it triggers our HR departments to introduce a whole slew of non-engineering positions who pretty much tend to find power and kill/stifle technical innovation. It's the reason Phillips (and many other great Dutch companies) has become an innovative shadow of what it used to be. The US seems to have a better understanding how great engineering happens when talented engineers are running the show.