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I don't come to HN for politics, so I'll try to say this as apolitically as possible: I'm reading in some places that after deciding to pull out, the United St

I don't come to HN for politics, so I'll try to say this as apolitically as possible: I'm reading in some places that after deciding to pull out, the United States decided to not fulfill promises to emigrate many Afghan civilians who helped the US or the US-backed government by serving as translators and such. These "traitors" may find life particularly difficult under a reinstated Taliban government. If this is true, it is shameful and (for better or worse) may make attempts at finding local support for future regime-building adventures much more difficult.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> If this is true, it is shameful and (for better or worse) may make attempts at finding local support for future regime-building adventures much more difficult. This is such a regularly recurrent kind of thing at the end of US interventions that the n+1st instance probably won't noticeably change the total effect from what is there from the first n instances.
t0mas88 5y ago
This discussion is also in the news today in the Netherlands with regards to our own involvement there. Some translators have been evacuated, some have not yet been picked up. And apparently there are others that weren't local translators but that did support the military there (e.g. as drivers or suppliers) and are at risk. That last group hasn't been saved yet and it's unclear whether something has been arranged.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  This wavering with helping our friends will surely have an effect on our chances of making friends in the future. It's quite frankly dishonourable to leave them in the lurch like is happening. I do appreciate the advance has been swift but it should not have been hard to simply put everyone on a plane and process their claims someplace less dangerous.
  - christophilus 5y ago
    We did the same to the south Vietnamese. Disgraceful. I really feel bad for any Afghanis who aided the US.
- pwdisswordfish0 5y ago
  This is a topic in Germany as well. Apparently it’s some kind of bureaucratic nightmare to apply for help. Insanely shameful.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Same in Germany. I wonder how one can be naive enough, read government and armed forces, to a) say you gonna retreat by date X b) say local helpers will get the opportunity to get to your home country c) organise your troop withdrawal, without any thoughts on how fast the Taliban will take over d) pull your troops, sans local support staff and their families, out. Be surprised that your locals are now stuck e) expect that next time your army goes somewhere you'll still find reliable local help How difficult would it have been to evacuate your supporting locals along your troops before the country is taken over by your opponent. But then the German Army is unable to tell how many soldiers the deployed there since the war started... Mark me surprised, I am way beyond being shocked by stuff like that so.
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    I'm of the opinion that the German or Dutch army probably isn't as incompetent as half the population thinks compared to the US. It's just that the US has a much more "thank you for your service" culture than the "what an idiots" attitude the Germans and Dutch (and UK?) have to our armies. Not sure how the French do with this?
uniacid 5y ago
I think the problem the US did was we announced we were leaving prior to doing any of that necessary work before we even announced or started to leave. In hindsight I'm not sure why but it felt liked it was indeed a rushed effort, obviously started by the Trump admin and now Biden's admin, either way I think everyone is tired of the situation in general since it's not a society or place anyone will ever change unless we decide to stay there for a few centuries.
- shagie 5y ago
  > unless we decide to stay there for a few centuries And The Great Game continues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game https://www.loc.gov/ghe/cascade/index.html?appid=a0930b1f4e424987ba68c28880f088ea https://www.loc.gov/ghe/cascade/index.html?appid=a0930b1f4e4... is also certainly looking at for the context too (nicely done presentation from the Library of Congress Geography and Map Division)
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  The (not anymore) secret talks with Taliban started under Obama already, but looks like in the end the Taliban smelled your weakness and saw the opportunity getting into power without listening what americans want from them.
eplanit 5y ago
It's 20 years, 100s of billions of dollars, and many thousands of lives -- all wasted. The government that was setup (and then propped up) to replace the Taliban is gone, and replaced again by the Taliban: 0 net gain. All those rights and liberties that had been gained for women and girls have vanished literally overnight. Everything, all efforts, sacrifices, and losses are for absolutely nothing. The depth of this historic failure is mind-boggling.
- Jabbles 5y ago
  This estimate suggests ~$800B https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47391821 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47391821
  - eplanit 5y ago
    You're right, will correct.
- uniacid 5y ago
  $2 Trillion or so, also we have to admit the failure was the US changing its role there from hunting Bin Laden and the Taliban to "Nation building" with an obviously corrupt Govt that has always been there. It shouldn't be a surprise since you need a society that wants to actually break from the same continued cycle, unfortunately Afghanistan isn't it due to many reasons.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > we have to admit the failure was the US changing its role there from hunting Bin Laden and the Taliban to "Nation building" The cause of the failure was when, in 2003, the US decided to focus on an entirely unnecessary war of choice (aggression, really) in Iraq (and a whole bunch of propaganda own-goals scored in that war that affected the US particularly in the Islamic world reinforced that.) Nation building was always an element of fighting the Taliban, not mission drift, since having something stable and broadly supported in place was the key to prevent a resurgence.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ciguy 5y ago
Look up how the USA treated the Hmong after they pulled out of Vietnam. This is nothing new unfortunately, I hope the translators and workers made plans to get out on their own because it was virtually guaranteed that they would be abandoned when things got rough. As an American, I find it incredible that they got anyone at all to work with us.
- petre 5y ago
  Some of these people were probably desperate enough to get rid of the Taliban, that's how the US made friends. I read a piece about a couple of days ago about a woman leading a group of anti Taliban resistance fighters. Probably a propaganda piece but still.
  - ciguy 5y ago
    I'm sure some were but it's clearly not a majority of the population.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Whether or not you agree with the US leaving (especially in the manner that we left), it seems like we should all be able to agree that the US should honor its commitments to protect translators and other partners. I don’t understand the controversy here.
tyre 5y ago
There are a few issues at play. The biggest one is that the Taliban overtook the country far, far faster than anticipated. The Afghan military crumbled and lost ground about as fast as the Taliban could move its army. So while there were and are plans to evacuate those who helped the US military, the visa process—tens of thousands of which are in process and which began in the sprint—they weren’t expecting for the situation to change in a matter of days. In June, the US intelligence community was predicting they could have six months post-leaving before the Afghan government collapsed. Instead, the past week did it. The US won’t be able to get everyone out, but they are making a good faith effort. They are adapting by, for example, asking allied countries to temporarily take people whose visas are in progress but not fully finished. It’s a horrible situation. Thousands if not tens of thousands will be left behind. They and their families will be in danger. But we also have to be careful of who we let into the country And the embassy and in-country forces have other priories as well like destroying sensitive documents—which will itself save lives of people who worked with us—and extracting allied diplomats, their families, etc.
- publicola1990 5y ago
  But US asking other countries to take in these Afgans instead of taking them to US territories isn't a good look for the US.
  - CydeWeys 5y ago
    Where do the Afghans themselves want to go? They don't all want to come to the US.
    - publicola1990 5y ago
      Well I got the impression that US is not taking them to US territories not because they don't want to go there, rather because US isn't able to make arrangements to do so in time.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  When the US abandoned Vietnam, we ferried people out by helicopter as Saigon fell. We rescued 5500 Vietnamese civilians this way. The ambassador wouldn’t leave until marines forced him to get onto a helicopter. How many did we rescue this time? Do we have fewer helicopters than we did in 1975? Do our helicopters have an interlock that prevents them from taking off if someone without a visa is onboard?
gigatexal 5y ago
Yeah as an American Afghani’s that helped troops and risked their lives should be given refuge in the US. It’s the only decent thing to do.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dragonwriter 5y ago

> If this is true, it is shameful and (for better or worse) may make attempts at finding local support for future regime-building adventures much more difficult. This is such a regularly recurrent kind of thing at the end of US interventions that the n+1st instance probably won't noticeably change the total effect from what is there from the first n instances.

t0mas88 5y ago

This discussion is also in the news today in the Netherlands with regards to our own involvement there. Some translators have been evacuated, some have not yet been picked up. And apparently there are others that weren't local translators but that did support the military there (e.g. as drivers or suppliers) and are at risk. That last group hasn't been saved yet and it's unclear whether something has been arranged.

lordnacho 5y ago
This wavering with helping our friends will surely have an effect on our chances of making friends in the future. It's quite frankly dishonourable to leave them in the lurch like is happening. I do appreciate the advance has been swift but it should not have been hard to simply put everyone on a plane and process their claims someplace less dangerous.
- christophilus 5y ago
  We did the same to the south Vietnamese. Disgraceful. I really feel bad for any Afghanis who aided the US.
pwdisswordfish0 5y ago
This is a topic in Germany as well. Apparently it’s some kind of bureaucratic nightmare to apply for help. Insanely shameful.
hef19898 5y ago
Same in Germany. I wonder how one can be naive enough, read government and armed forces, to a) say you gonna retreat by date X b) say local helpers will get the opportunity to get to your home country c) organise your troop withdrawal, without any thoughts on how fast the Taliban will take over d) pull your troops, sans local support staff and their families, out. Be surprised that your locals are now stuck e) expect that next time your army goes somewhere you'll still find reliable local help How difficult would it have been to evacuate your supporting locals along your troops before the country is taken over by your opponent. But then the German Army is unable to tell how many soldiers the deployed there since the war started... Mark me surprised, I am way beyond being shocked by stuff like that so.
- t0mas88 5y ago
  I'm of the opinion that the German or Dutch army probably isn't as incompetent as half the population thinks compared to the US. It's just that the US has a much more "thank you for your service" culture than the "what an idiots" attitude the Germans and Dutch (and UK?) have to our armies. Not sure how the French do with this?

uniacid 5y ago

I think the problem the US did was we announced we were leaving prior to doing any of that necessary work before we even announced or started to leave. In hindsight I'm not sure why but it felt liked it was indeed a rushed effort, obviously started by the Trump admin and now Biden's admin, either way I think everyone is tired of the situation in general since it's not a society or place anyone will ever change unless we decide to stay there for a few centuries.

shagie 5y ago
> unless we decide to stay there for a few centuries And The Great Game continues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game https://www.loc.gov/ghe/cascade/index.html?appid=a0930b1f4e424987ba68c28880f088ea https://www.loc.gov/ghe/cascade/index.html?appid=a0930b1f4e4... is also certainly looking at for the context too (nicely done presentation from the Library of Congress Geography and Map Division)
Dma54rhs 5y ago
The (not anymore) secret talks with Taliban started under Obama already, but looks like in the end the Taliban smelled your weakness and saw the opportunity getting into power without listening what americans want from them.

eplanit 5y ago

It's 20 years, 100s of billions of dollars, and many thousands of lives -- all wasted. The government that was setup (and then propped up) to replace the Taliban is gone, and replaced again by the Taliban: 0 net gain. All those rights and liberties that had been gained for women and girls have vanished literally overnight. Everything, all efforts, sacrifices, and losses are for absolutely nothing. The depth of this historic failure is mind-boggling.

Jabbles 5y ago
This estimate suggests ~$800B https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47391821 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-47391821
- eplanit 5y ago
  You're right, will correct.
uniacid 5y ago
$2 Trillion or so, also we have to admit the failure was the US changing its role there from hunting Bin Laden and the Taliban to "Nation building" with an obviously corrupt Govt that has always been there. It shouldn't be a surprise since you need a society that wants to actually break from the same continued cycle, unfortunately Afghanistan isn't it due to many reasons.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > we have to admit the failure was the US changing its role there from hunting Bin Laden and the Taliban to "Nation building" The cause of the failure was when, in 2003, the US decided to focus on an entirely unnecessary war of choice (aggression, really) in Iraq (and a whole bunch of propaganda own-goals scored in that war that affected the US particularly in the Islamic world reinforced that.) Nation building was always an element of fighting the Taliban, not mission drift, since having something stable and broadly supported in place was the key to prevent a resurgence.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ciguy 5y ago

Look up how the USA treated the Hmong after they pulled out of Vietnam. This is nothing new unfortunately, I hope the translators and workers made plans to get out on their own because it was virtually guaranteed that they would be abandoned when things got rough. As an American, I find it incredible that they got anyone at all to work with us.

petre 5y ago
Some of these people were probably desperate enough to get rid of the Taliban, that's how the US made friends. I read a piece about a couple of days ago about a woman leading a group of anti Taliban resistance fighters. Probably a propaganda piece but still.
- ciguy 5y ago
  I'm sure some were but it's clearly not a majority of the population.

throwaway894345 5y ago

Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Whether or not you agree with the US leaving (especially in the manner that we left), it seems like we should all be able to agree that the US should honor its commitments to protect translators and other partners. I don’t understand the controversy here.

tyre 5y ago

There are a few issues at play. The biggest one is that the Taliban overtook the country far, far faster than anticipated. The Afghan military crumbled and lost ground about as fast as the Taliban could move its army. So while there were and are plans to evacuate those who helped the US military, the visa process—tens of thousands of which are in process and which began in the sprint—they weren’t expecting for the situation to change in a matter of days. In June, the US intelligence community was predicting they could have six months post-leaving before the Afghan government collapsed. Instead, the past week did it. The US won’t be able to get everyone out, but they are making a good faith effort. They are adapting by, for example, asking allied countries to temporarily take people whose visas are in progress but not fully finished. It’s a horrible situation. Thousands if not tens of thousands will be left behind. They and their families will be in danger. But we also have to be careful of who we let into the country And the embassy and in-country forces have other priories as well like destroying sensitive documents—which will itself save lives of people who worked with us—and extracting allied diplomats, their families, etc.

publicola1990 5y ago
But US asking other countries to take in these Afgans instead of taking them to US territories isn't a good look for the US.
- CydeWeys 5y ago
  Where do the Afghans themselves want to go? They don't all want to come to the US.
  - publicola1990 5y ago
    Well I got the impression that US is not taking them to US territories not because they don't want to go there, rather because US isn't able to make arrangements to do so in time.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
When the US abandoned Vietnam, we ferried people out by helicopter as Saigon fell. We rescued 5500 Vietnamese civilians this way. The ambassador wouldn’t leave until marines forced him to get onto a helicopter. How many did we rescue this time? Do we have fewer helicopters than we did in 1975? Do our helicopters have an interlock that prevents them from taking off if someone without a visa is onboard?

gigatexal 5y ago

Yeah as an American Afghani’s that helped troops and risked their lives should be given refuge in the US. It’s the only decent thing to do.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]