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Amazon postpones return to office until January 2022

141 points by flowerlad 5y ago

eu 5y ago
And that will be postponed till later in the spring.. I can't see things improving during the winter.
- gedy 5y ago
  I suspect many companies are stringing dates along like this to avoid their teams moving away remote en masse.
  - eli 5y ago
    This seems overly cynical. The situation on the ground with regards to the virus is rapidly shifting.
- nickthegreek 5y ago
  We just had a voluntary return to office 2 weeks ago, which was canceled after 1 week with the rise of the delta variant. I'm pretty sure we will be in limbo until spring.
- echelon 5y ago
  At some point paying for office space rent is just throwing good money after bad. How many tech companies will just let their offices go when the lease is up? Or begin the process of subletting? Many tech companies have started a full remote hiring swing, and they won't let these employees go when things return to "normal". It wouldn't make sense to lay them off if they're productive talent. I could see small WeWork-style hubs working for companies that want to support small clusters of remote workers, but not full offices. This will probably put a lot of downwards pressure on our $300-500k compensation packages as we begin to hire from middle and southern US states, where wages never reached west coast levels.
  - dleslie 5y ago
    > How many tech companies will just let their offices go when the lease is up? Any of them which have learned how to produce as much value working remotely as they did working in an office, less the cost of renting the office. Ha, who am I kidding? It won't be a rational choice. The companies that will continue demanding in-office work will be those driven by a company culture that _distrusts their employees_. I expect that if sufficiently many companies opt to remain fully WFH and abandon offices altogether that those which demand office presence will be viewed suspiciously by prospective employees. As suspiciously as one should view a potential employer who demands to install rootkit spyware on your personal computer when conducting an interview.
  - the_gipsy 5y ago
    > At some point paying for office space rent is just throwing good money after bad. To many companies, real estate is money parking or even speculation.
- Alex3917 5y ago
  Right. If things are already getting postponed during delta, there's no way anyone is going back during lambda.
  - babyshake 5y ago
    Just wait until Omega.
    - Cd00d 5y ago
      Well, then we're at the end of this - reason to celebrate!
      - brewdad 5y ago
        Unless only the cockroaches survive.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    Honestly, Gamma seemed like the most dangerous one to me on paper. I apparently am very wrong on that assumption though. (Gamma was the "P1" variant that was reinfecting cities that were previously infected with COVID19) Alpha of course was the problem (being the first COVID19 variant that was "better" than the original). But only Delta was actually "better" than Alpha. Everyone has completely forgotten about Beta (aka: South Africa variant), despite it being hugely in the news a few months ago. Lambda isn't spreading very much. There's a "Delta-Plus" variant going around, but it seems like "Delta-Plus" is no "better" than the original Delta. -------- We drew the short straw on this one. Back in the 1918 pandemic, the flu evolved into a less-dangerous form. In this COVID19 situation, we got unlucky twice, and the virus evolved twice (first to Alpha, then again to Delta). There's no reason to assume that the virus will continue to "get better", so to speak. Aside from the fact that it did so twice in the past year... the next step it takes forward could be backwards. Evolution cuts both ways, its not always a straight path towards improvement. ----------- EDIT: Looking at the list: Beta, Gamma, Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, Iota, and Kappa are all "variants of concern" but no one gives a care. Only Delta is giving us issues right now, and only Alpha gave us a major issue before Delta.
- browningstreet 5y ago
  I have presently have 3 gym memberships.. two of them I added during this last no-mask period. One is probably dropping off soon (technicalities about where I live, etc., create uncertainty about the duration of that). One is very expensive, but I love that gym, but it's less conducive to the workouts I want to do if I'm wearing a mask. The cheaper one is closest to my house and the easiest for me to program with a mask. I'm trying to figure out whether to pay the cancellation fees or hope for better times soon. It seems likely that I'll pay the break-up fees and keep the one gym membership because.. I agree with your prognosis. But I don't want to agree with that prognosis.
flowerlad 5y ago
It is a race between variants and vaccines... and the variants are winning. I think the only solution is to engineer a benign variant of the virus... one that spreads easily but doesn't make people sick, and yet gives full immunity to those who are infected with it. Then gather all the anti-vaxxers by offering them free concert, pizza and beer, and secretly release the benign variant on them! This is the only way to immunize the entire country. Once infected with the benign variant, the anti-vaxxers can be encouraged to go to concerts, crowded places, not wear masks, and so on. The benign variant will soon be the dominant variant, displacing all other variants!
- hartator 5y ago
  > secretly release the benign variant on them Well, no. No need to hate on each other.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jerf 5y ago
  Currently on HN's front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28077258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28077258
- programmarchy 5y ago
  Not endorsing your rudeness, but there’s actually a technique called variolation that does something similar by purposely exposing people to low loads of a wild virus so their immune system has an advantage. Variolation could be a good argument for masking in public.
  - flowerlad 5y ago
    But variolation requires manually treating people one by one. We need a better way -- which is to convert the virus itself into a vaccine, which will then spread automatically in a community.
- deleted 5y ago
AnotherGoodName 5y ago
I took bets with others on when we'd be allowed return to the office. This was in March 2020. Some said April, some stated June or July. One outrageous bet was January 2021 which we all took as a bit of a joke. No way would this last that long. "People will wear masks and isolate and we'll beat this". We made the same bet in March 2021, laughing at our previous bad estimates. The furthest out was again January next year. That was a ridiculous suggestion we thought. "The vaccine is here it should be over soon". I wonder how 2022 will go.
- spidersouris 5y ago
  This is only my opinion, but really, we cannot afford to continue like this for months and months, or hell, even years. Once most of the population will be vaccinated, there will absolutely be no reason to keep facilities closed anymore. The reason lockdowns were decided was because the virus caused hospitals and medical facilities to struggle under the weight of critical cases. With the vaccine, and even if new variants appear, the number of people having to go to the hospital will plummet. We'll have to find one way or another to live with the virus as it will never be eradicated completely.
  - danhak 5y ago
    > Once most of the population will be vaccinated, there will absolutely be no reason to keep facilities closed anymore Most of the population has been vaccinated. 50.4% of the U.S. population is fully vaccinated: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-trac...
    - greedo 5y ago
      I think the parent is implying enough vaccinations to slow the spread of COVID. Clearly Delta is proving that 50.4% vaccination rate is not even close to good enough, unless we're willing to consign the other 49.6% to their fate.
  - wayoutthere 5y ago
dbg31415 5y ago
Much more reasonable than an employer mandating a vaccine to return to an office setting.
- partiallypro 5y ago
  I disagree, and I'm surprised the White House isn't trying to work with big employers to try to get them to mandate the vaccine. That would get a huge chunk of the population. Not many are going to quit their job over a shot. Walmart, Kroger, Amazon, etc are some of the biggest employers in the US. You have to feel bad for Amazon Warehouse workers reading this headline though.
  - dbg31415 5y ago
    Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine? Putting it on employers is yet another sign of cowardice in our leadership. Each business shouldn't have to sort this out... it's too complex of an issue. If there's going to be a mandate, make a real mandate. People misunderstood my point. I don't think this should be on employers. I think that's bad for a lot of reasons. It should be on governments. BUT... bigger picture, it's not like these vaccine cards are hard to fake. I was vaccinated in March, but I have no way of proving that. I didn't bother to save my vaccine card. It was just a generic piece of paper with the company's logo and two hastily written vaccine lot numbers though. Again... nobody checked my ID. No real way to prove you were vaccinate. It's a mess. Should have tied stimulus grants to getting vaccinated. Should have set up a vaccine registration system. Nope... government fucked up, and is now passing the buck on to businesses. Let's say the vaccine does give us all tails in 20 years... can I sue my employer? I sure can. The government isn't even giving businesses any protection. Total joke. Worst possible way to do this on every front.
    - partiallypro 5y ago
      > Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine? Because it would never hold up in court? Even in countries outside the US their mandates are bordering on illegal. If the federal government mandated vaccines, who is going to enforce it anyhow? You can't. Local law enforcement is not under federal jurisdiction. Even if the Federal government had some sort of strong law enforcement arm, it wouldn't work. A lawsuit would immediately be filed, and at best it would go straight to SCOTUS and (rightfully) shot down or it would sit at trial for months/years. The easiest and best way is through employer mandates because 99% of people are not going to lose their job over a shot and they have total legal authority. Monetary incentives are vastly more legal and moral. To the contrary on your point, a federal mandate on all citizens is weak/awful leadership considering it would never work and would immediately be revoked by the courts. That decision would likely also be bipartisan. The same is probably going to happen with the eviction moratorium; Biden's extension is on incredibly shaky legal grounds and is probably going to be overturned.
mjlee 5y ago
I wonder if this will affect AWS re:Invent - meant to be kicking off end of November in person. I expect it would flop if it was just customers and no engineers.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I'm currently planning to attend a couple of scaled-back in-person events in the fall. Hard to say about re:Invent. It's normally such a big event. And Vegas? I'd probably bet on it being virtual in some form. Maybe some scaled-down in-person component.
  - mjlee 5y ago
    They're already selling tickets for the in person event, as well as making some of it available online for free.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      AWS was good with video for re:Invent well before COVID. We'll see what happens in the fall. Certainly some organizations are betting that events can happen with whatever scaling back and requirements for attendees. But things can change even if people register.
- jedberg 5y ago
  This is a good question. I was planning on attending when they asked me a few months ago, but now with delta I'm reconsidering.
silicon2401 5y ago
Extremely grateful for tech giants like Amazon putting pressure on the rest of the industry. I wouldn't work for them but I definitely benefit from them in cases like this. Hopefully the rest of the industry follows suite.
- H8crilA 5y ago
  Why do you want everyone else to be back at the office?
  - dannyphantom 5y ago
    It sounds more like they are appreciative that Amazon is setting a precedent to have employees back by '22 which other companies will theoretically have to match.
    - silicon2401 5y ago
      I am appreciative that Amazon is allowing wfh to continue longer. Maybe my wording was unclear lol
      - H8crilA 5y ago
        Yes, I have completely misunderstood you :)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ptudan 5y ago
  The other giants put the tech pressure on Amazon, lol. Amazon was the last domino to fall for 2022
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    ah, well, whoever it is, I thank anybody keeping the wfh ball rolling. I'm eager to never return to an office and the longer we keep the temporary thing going, the higher chance I have of getting a fully remote situation locked down before having to go back in
dekhn 5y ago
I bet we'll see PR from Google, Facebook, Apple, and Microsoft soon, with roughly the same timeline.
babelfish 5y ago
My company announced a couple of months ago that they are planning on having everyone come back into office starting on September 1st. I request a "full remote exception" three times, and was rejected each time, one of which coming straight from the CTO. So I found a new job and put in my two weeks - somehow, everyone up the chain from me was incredibly surprised and disappointed, and even offered me a "full remote exception" if I stayed (I declined). How long are companies going to pretend that Pandora's Box hasn't been opened with regards to remote work? Why are we pretending that employees aren't as productive when at home? This last year and a half have shown tech companies posting record profits, so it's clear that employees are just as productive from their homes as from the office. Those who can adapt to this new world will be able to hire the best talent, and those who can't are going to really struggle and lost talent.
- nojito 5y ago
  The vast majority people at my org enjoy hybrid over full remote.
- stevehawk 5y ago
  honestly, because some of us aren't nearly as productive at home as we are in the office. I'm glad you are, and I'm glad you found a remote job, and I wish you success in it. But I'd like to get back into the office where I don't hear my dogs bark at every bird that lands in the back yard, or constant interruption by my retired neighbors, UPS/FedEx/USPS, etc etc etc. I miss the delineation between work and home. I've lost it.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    What if your employer agreed to rent you an office space? Or converted your office to more of a WeWork style space where you can reserve a desk? I'm thinking this is where companies will be headed. For employees who want to work remotely, let them. For everyone else, either rent them small offices or allow them to come to the office as they choose.
    - dimitrios1 5y ago
sandworm101 5y ago
Amazon Corporate. And Amazon's website people. But Amazon is not a website. It is a warehouse and delivery company. The vast majority of employees, those working in warehouses and delivering things to customers, will likely not ever be able to work from home.
steveBK123 5y ago
Vaccine rollout went so smooth it turned around my pessimism for 3-6 months, but now the last 2-3 weeks have me quite pessimistic. The breakthrough cases (quantity, severity) plus ability of vaxxed to spread, anecdotes of everyone knowing people getting sick, where we are with cases vs last summer, plus % unvaxxed in certain demographics within cities makes RTO seem quite untenable now. Vax seems to protect against hospitalization & death from delta, but can very easily be laid up a week or two sick and have non-trivial respiratory issues. Went into office last week 1st time, stunned to see 2019 style maskless floor with full density occupancy of desks. Attendance is being centrally coordinate & desk reservations required, so this was no coincidence or accident... I go 18 months without eating indoors, shopping for groceries w/o mask, getting on a plane, etc and now I'm gonna sit on a crowded open office floor at 100% occupancy maskless 5 days/week? WTF. NY offices seem to be ignoring that even if 80% of white collar staff they employ are vaccinated, the outsourced/building services staff are not. Not to mention the place you pickup lunch, coffee, and the cross section of people on public transit. Some actual numbers from recent NYTimes/City official stats for even having 1 shot yet: * NYPD 45% * Black Bronx residents ~36% * South Williamsburg ~35% * MTA subway & bus staff ~45% * NYC teachers (whose union demanded to be front of line but refuse a mandate) ~60% * NYCHA ~38% NY seems to be dragging their heals on this, some combination of BdB - Cuomo feuding, Cuomo busy with impeachment defense, return of in-person schools, and the Commercial RE/Bank/Dining industry pressures. As soon as City/State put an indoor mask mandate in place, it puts indoor dining, schools and offices into question all over again. So the tail is wagging the dog, as they say.
- worker767424 5y ago
  At some point, we're going to have to make a call about whether we want to live with the risks or continue distancing. Considering how much more contagious delta is, I suspect masks won't be enough on their own, beyond signaling that it's not safe and scaring people away. Considering how not especially deadly covid is, I personally don't see masks and distancing as a long-term solution, but a lot of people disagree and seem perfectly happy spending the decade getting meals delivered and working from home.
  - 5y ago
_jal 5y ago
We did the same thing a couple weeks ago. Predictions are hard, especially about the future, but I'd bet money that will slip, too. If you're waiting for 'normal', I think you're already soaking in it. At least for the next 18 months or so, which is effectively forever in terms of flexible change.
gspr 5y ago
Kinda off-topic, but am I the only one who's experience brain rot from not being able to go poke a colleague on the shoulder and head off to a separate room and have a loose semi-relevant conversation about some work topic (with umpteen digressions) for half an hour? Seriously, I think 90% of every good idea I've ever had has come to me in situations like the above. I don't wanna force people to come back to the office with me, but I'm just surprised that more people aren't feeling like they've lost something important without it. Yes, I can informally start off a chat with a colleague over Slack, but it just doesn't work for me. People think too much before they write something. All the good ideas die if people weigh their words too much :-(
- ghaff 5y ago
  Ask them if they have time for a 30 minute phone call later?
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    Right. This feels like classic open floor plan extrovert "I could just grab & interrupt people whenever I needed them" lol.
    - gspr 5y ago
      Of course not. I hate open floor plans. The same would apply if we were all in individual offices. What matters is physical proximity allowing for impromptu informal conversations.
- lizknope 5y ago
  We had layoffs a year ago and got moved into an existing team that none of us knew. Then they reassigned more people on and off the project. After 2 months our team lead realized that we were having problems so he organized 2 meetings a week but there is no status taking. It is all "What problems are you having and let us try to collectively debug it." Share your screen, other people draw on it, give control of your screen to a coworker and let them try a command. It has actually been great. I have gotten to know 4 of the remote people really well now. I hope to meet them in person some day and have a beer with them. I'm doing semiconductor design, not software in case anybody is wondering.
awscherb 5y ago
I feel like I'm in the minority here as a tech worker, I can't wait to return to office full time and hopefully will be able to work in the office 5 days a week. WFH has just never worked well for me personally. I enjoy the physical separation between work and home, and even given the opportunity to work from anywhere in the world, I would still choose to live where I currently do (nyc).
irrational 5y ago
I don’t want everyone to work remote or everyone work in the office or everyone work remote 2 days and in the office 3 days. What I do want is every person can decide for themselves what is best for themselves without any repercussions. We need to learn that even if we are in the office that not everyone will be so every meeting will have people calling in on zoom - and that is okay.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I think the problem many people have is they hate interacting over Zoom.
  - irrational 5y ago
    Well, I hate working in an office. So, I guess we all have to suffer a bit so that everyone can work in their optimal environment.
WYepQ4dNnG 5y ago
Surprise surprise! no one really believed that 2021 would have been the go back to the office, business as usual year right? COVID-19, unfortunately, is here to stay, and by looking at all the people that could get vaccinated and decide not to, and unfortunately all the people around the world that would like to get vaccinated but can't, I have hard time seeing a "going back to normal" anytime soon. Also, we have to hope that the virus does not mutate in more aggressive forms that could defeat the efficacy of current vaccines. Companies small/medium/big should make piece with their mind and accept the fact that remote working is here to stay, it is a viable option and they should stop expecting people to work from an office just for the sake of having people around.
- drstewart 5y ago
  Just like you say companies have to accept remote because it's hear to stay, some people are going to have to accept normal is going to return because, like you say, covid is hear to stay. Sorry, but if every day is anm state of emergency then no days are.

141 points by flowerlad 5y ago

eu 5y ago

And that will be postponed till later in the spring.. I can't see things improving during the winter.

gedy 5y ago
I suspect many companies are stringing dates along like this to avoid their teams moving away remote en masse.
- eli 5y ago
  This seems overly cynical. The situation on the ground with regards to the virus is rapidly shifting.
nickthegreek 5y ago
We just had a voluntary return to office 2 weeks ago, which was canceled after 1 week with the rise of the delta variant. I'm pretty sure we will be in limbo until spring.
echelon 5y ago
At some point paying for office space rent is just throwing good money after bad. How many tech companies will just let their offices go when the lease is up? Or begin the process of subletting? Many tech companies have started a full remote hiring swing, and they won't let these employees go when things return to "normal". It wouldn't make sense to lay them off if they're productive talent. I could see small WeWork-style hubs working for companies that want to support small clusters of remote workers, but not full offices. This will probably put a lot of downwards pressure on our $300-500k compensation packages as we begin to hire from middle and southern US states, where wages never reached west coast levels.
- dleslie 5y ago
  > How many tech companies will just let their offices go when the lease is up? Any of them which have learned how to produce as much value working remotely as they did working in an office, less the cost of renting the office. Ha, who am I kidding? It won't be a rational choice. The companies that will continue demanding in-office work will be those driven by a company culture that _distrusts their employees_. I expect that if sufficiently many companies opt to remain fully WFH and abandon offices altogether that those which demand office presence will be viewed suspiciously by prospective employees. As suspiciously as one should view a potential employer who demands to install rootkit spyware on your personal computer when conducting an interview.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  > At some point paying for office space rent is just throwing good money after bad. To many companies, real estate is money parking or even speculation.
Alex3917 5y ago
Right. If things are already getting postponed during delta, there's no way anyone is going back during lambda.
- babyshake 5y ago
  Just wait until Omega.
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    Well, then we're at the end of this - reason to celebrate!
    - brewdad 5y ago
      Unless only the cockroaches survive.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Honestly, Gamma seemed like the most dangerous one to me on paper. I apparently am very wrong on that assumption though. (Gamma was the "P1" variant that was reinfecting cities that were previously infected with COVID19) Alpha of course was the problem (being the first COVID19 variant that was "better" than the original). But only Delta was actually "better" than Alpha. Everyone has completely forgotten about Beta (aka: South Africa variant), despite it being hugely in the news a few months ago. Lambda isn't spreading very much. There's a "Delta-Plus" variant going around, but it seems like "Delta-Plus" is no "better" than the original Delta. -------- We drew the short straw on this one. Back in the 1918 pandemic, the flu evolved into a less-dangerous form. In this COVID19 situation, we got unlucky twice, and the virus evolved twice (first to Alpha, then again to Delta). There's no reason to assume that the virus will continue to "get better", so to speak. Aside from the fact that it did so twice in the past year... the next step it takes forward could be backwards. Evolution cuts both ways, its not always a straight path towards improvement. ----------- EDIT: Looking at the list: Beta, Gamma, Epsilon, Zeta, Eta, Theta, Iota, and Kappa are all "variants of concern" but no one gives a care. Only Delta is giving us issues right now, and only Alpha gave us a major issue before Delta.
browningstreet 5y ago
I have presently have 3 gym memberships.. two of them I added during this last no-mask period. One is probably dropping off soon (technicalities about where I live, etc., create uncertainty about the duration of that). One is very expensive, but I love that gym, but it's less conducive to the workouts I want to do if I'm wearing a mask. The cheaper one is closest to my house and the easiest for me to program with a mask. I'm trying to figure out whether to pay the cancellation fees or hope for better times soon. It seems likely that I'll pay the break-up fees and keep the one gym membership because.. I agree with your prognosis. But I don't want to agree with that prognosis.

flowerlad 5y ago

It is a race between variants and vaccines... and the variants are winning. I think the only solution is to engineer a benign variant of the virus... one that spreads easily but doesn't make people sick, and yet gives full immunity to those who are infected with it. Then gather all the anti-vaxxers by offering them free concert, pizza and beer, and secretly release the benign variant on them! This is the only way to immunize the entire country. Once infected with the benign variant, the anti-vaxxers can be encouraged to go to concerts, crowded places, not wear masks, and so on. The benign variant will soon be the dominant variant, displacing all other variants!

hartator 5y ago
> secretly release the benign variant on them Well, no. No need to hate on each other.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jerf 5y ago
Currently on HN's front page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28077258 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28077258
programmarchy 5y ago
Not endorsing your rudeness, but there’s actually a technique called variolation that does something similar by purposely exposing people to low loads of a wild virus so their immune system has an advantage. Variolation could be a good argument for masking in public.
- flowerlad 5y ago
  But variolation requires manually treating people one by one. We need a better way -- which is to convert the virus itself into a vaccine, which will then spread automatically in a community.
deleted 5y ago

AnotherGoodName 5y ago

I took bets with others on when we'd be allowed return to the office. This was in March 2020. Some said April, some stated June or July. One outrageous bet was January 2021 which we all took as a bit of a joke. No way would this last that long. "People will wear masks and isolate and we'll beat this". We made the same bet in March 2021, laughing at our previous bad estimates. The furthest out was again January next year. That was a ridiculous suggestion we thought. "The vaccine is here it should be over soon". I wonder how 2022 will go.

spidersouris 5y ago
This is only my opinion, but really, we cannot afford to continue like this for months and months, or hell, even years. Once most of the population will be vaccinated, there will absolutely be no reason to keep facilities closed anymore. The reason lockdowns were decided was because the virus caused hospitals and medical facilities to struggle under the weight of critical cases. With the vaccine, and even if new variants appear, the number of people having to go to the hospital will plummet. We'll have to find one way or another to live with the virus as it will never be eradicated completely.
- danhak 5y ago
  > Once most of the population will be vaccinated, there will absolutely be no reason to keep facilities closed anymore Most of the population has been vaccinated. 50.4% of the U.S. population is fully vaccinated: https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-tracker https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/vaccine-trac...
  - greedo 5y ago
    I think the parent is implying enough vaccinations to slow the spread of COVID. Clearly Delta is proving that 50.4% vaccination rate is not even close to good enough, unless we're willing to consign the other 49.6% to their fate.
- wayoutthere 5y ago

dbg31415 5y ago

Much more reasonable than an employer mandating a vaccine to return to an office setting.

partiallypro 5y ago
I disagree, and I'm surprised the White House isn't trying to work with big employers to try to get them to mandate the vaccine. That would get a huge chunk of the population. Not many are going to quit their job over a shot. Walmart, Kroger, Amazon, etc are some of the biggest employers in the US. You have to feel bad for Amazon Warehouse workers reading this headline though.
- dbg31415 5y ago
  Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine? Putting it on employers is yet another sign of cowardice in our leadership. Each business shouldn't have to sort this out... it's too complex of an issue. If there's going to be a mandate, make a real mandate. People misunderstood my point. I don't think this should be on employers. I think that's bad for a lot of reasons. It should be on governments. BUT... bigger picture, it's not like these vaccine cards are hard to fake. I was vaccinated in March, but I have no way of proving that. I didn't bother to save my vaccine card. It was just a generic piece of paper with the company's logo and two hastily written vaccine lot numbers though. Again... nobody checked my ID. No real way to prove you were vaccinate. It's a mess. Should have tied stimulus grants to getting vaccinated. Should have set up a vaccine registration system. Nope... government fucked up, and is now passing the buck on to businesses. Let's say the vaccine does give us all tails in 20 years... can I sue my employer? I sure can. The government isn't even giving businesses any protection. Total joke. Worst possible way to do this on every front.
  - partiallypro 5y ago
    > Why wouldn't the federal government just mandate a vaccine? Because it would never hold up in court? Even in countries outside the US their mandates are bordering on illegal. If the federal government mandated vaccines, who is going to enforce it anyhow? You can't. Local law enforcement is not under federal jurisdiction. Even if the Federal government had some sort of strong law enforcement arm, it wouldn't work. A lawsuit would immediately be filed, and at best it would go straight to SCOTUS and (rightfully) shot down or it would sit at trial for months/years. The easiest and best way is through employer mandates because 99% of people are not going to lose their job over a shot and they have total legal authority. Monetary incentives are vastly more legal and moral. To the contrary on your point, a federal mandate on all citizens is weak/awful leadership considering it would never work and would immediately be revoked by the courts. That decision would likely also be bipartisan. The same is probably going to happen with the eviction moratorium; Biden's extension is on incredibly shaky legal grounds and is probably going to be overturned.

mjlee 5y ago

I wonder if this will affect AWS re:Invent - meant to be kicking off end of November in person. I expect it would flop if it was just customers and no engineers.

ghaff 5y ago
I'm currently planning to attend a couple of scaled-back in-person events in the fall. Hard to say about re:Invent. It's normally such a big event. And Vegas? I'd probably bet on it being virtual in some form. Maybe some scaled-down in-person component.
- mjlee 5y ago
  They're already selling tickets for the in person event, as well as making some of it available online for free.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    AWS was good with video for re:Invent well before COVID. We'll see what happens in the fall. Certainly some organizations are betting that events can happen with whatever scaling back and requirements for attendees. But things can change even if people register.
jedberg 5y ago
This is a good question. I was planning on attending when they asked me a few months ago, but now with delta I'm reconsidering.

silicon2401 5y ago

Extremely grateful for tech giants like Amazon putting pressure on the rest of the industry. I wouldn't work for them but I definitely benefit from them in cases like this. Hopefully the rest of the industry follows suite.

H8crilA 5y ago
Why do you want everyone else to be back at the office?
- dannyphantom 5y ago
  It sounds more like they are appreciative that Amazon is setting a precedent to have employees back by '22 which other companies will theoretically have to match.
  - silicon2401 5y ago
    I am appreciative that Amazon is allowing wfh to continue longer. Maybe my wording was unclear lol
    - H8crilA 5y ago
      Yes, I have completely misunderstood you :)
deleted 5y ago
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ptudan 5y ago
The other giants put the tech pressure on Amazon, lol. Amazon was the last domino to fall for 2022
- silicon2401 5y ago
  ah, well, whoever it is, I thank anybody keeping the wfh ball rolling. I'm eager to never return to an office and the longer we keep the temporary thing going, the higher chance I have of getting a fully remote situation locked down before having to go back in

dekhn 5y ago

I bet we'll see PR from Google, Facebook, Apple, and Microsoft soon, with roughly the same timeline.

babelfish 5y ago

My company announced a couple of months ago that they are planning on having everyone come back into office starting on September 1st. I request a "full remote exception" three times, and was rejected each time, one of which coming straight from the CTO. So I found a new job and put in my two weeks - somehow, everyone up the chain from me was incredibly surprised and disappointed, and even offered me a "full remote exception" if I stayed (I declined). How long are companies going to pretend that Pandora's Box hasn't been opened with regards to remote work? Why are we pretending that employees aren't as productive when at home? This last year and a half have shown tech companies posting record profits, so it's clear that employees are just as productive from their homes as from the office. Those who can adapt to this new world will be able to hire the best talent, and those who can't are going to really struggle and lost talent.

nojito 5y ago
The vast majority people at my org enjoy hybrid over full remote.
stevehawk 5y ago
honestly, because some of us aren't nearly as productive at home as we are in the office. I'm glad you are, and I'm glad you found a remote job, and I wish you success in it. But I'd like to get back into the office where I don't hear my dogs bark at every bird that lands in the back yard, or constant interruption by my retired neighbors, UPS/FedEx/USPS, etc etc etc. I miss the delineation between work and home. I've lost it.
- jedberg 5y ago
  What if your employer agreed to rent you an office space? Or converted your office to more of a WeWork style space where you can reserve a desk? I'm thinking this is where companies will be headed. For employees who want to work remotely, let them. For everyone else, either rent them small offices or allow them to come to the office as they choose.
  - dimitrios1 5y ago

sandworm101 5y ago

Amazon Corporate. And Amazon's website people. But Amazon is not a website. It is a warehouse and delivery company. The vast majority of employees, those working in warehouses and delivering things to customers, will likely not ever be able to work from home.

steveBK123 5y ago

Vaccine rollout went so smooth it turned around my pessimism for 3-6 months, but now the last 2-3 weeks have me quite pessimistic. The breakthrough cases (quantity, severity) plus ability of vaxxed to spread, anecdotes of everyone knowing people getting sick, where we are with cases vs last summer, plus % unvaxxed in certain demographics within cities makes RTO seem quite untenable now. Vax seems to protect against hospitalization & death from delta, but can very easily be laid up a week or two sick and have non-trivial respiratory issues. Went into office last week 1st time, stunned to see 2019 style maskless floor with full density occupancy of desks. Attendance is being centrally coordinate & desk reservations required, so this was no coincidence or accident... I go 18 months without eating indoors, shopping for groceries w/o mask, getting on a plane, etc and now I'm gonna sit on a crowded open office floor at 100% occupancy maskless 5 days/week? WTF. NY offices seem to be ignoring that even if 80% of white collar staff they employ are vaccinated, the outsourced/building services staff are not. Not to mention the place you pickup lunch, coffee, and the cross section of people on public transit. Some actual numbers from recent NYTimes/City official stats for even having 1 shot yet: * NYPD 45% * Black Bronx residents ~36% * South Williamsburg ~35% * MTA subway & bus staff ~45% * NYC teachers (whose union demanded to be front of line but refuse a mandate) ~60% * NYCHA ~38% NY seems to be dragging their heals on this, some combination of BdB - Cuomo feuding, Cuomo busy with impeachment defense, return of in-person schools, and the Commercial RE/Bank/Dining industry pressures. As soon as City/State put an indoor mask mandate in place, it puts indoor dining, schools and offices into question all over again. So the tail is wagging the dog, as they say.

worker767424 5y ago
At some point, we're going to have to make a call about whether we want to live with the risks or continue distancing. Considering how much more contagious delta is, I suspect masks won't be enough on their own, beyond signaling that it's not safe and scaring people away. Considering how not especially deadly covid is, I personally don't see masks and distancing as a long-term solution, but a lot of people disagree and seem perfectly happy spending the decade getting meals delivered and working from home.
- 5y ago

_jal 5y ago

We did the same thing a couple weeks ago. Predictions are hard, especially about the future, but I'd bet money that will slip, too. If you're waiting for 'normal', I think you're already soaking in it. At least for the next 18 months or so, which is effectively forever in terms of flexible change.

gspr 5y ago

Kinda off-topic, but am I the only one who's experience brain rot from not being able to go poke a colleague on the shoulder and head off to a separate room and have a loose semi-relevant conversation about some work topic (with umpteen digressions) for half an hour? Seriously, I think 90% of every good idea I've ever had has come to me in situations like the above. I don't wanna force people to come back to the office with me, but I'm just surprised that more people aren't feeling like they've lost something important without it. Yes, I can informally start off a chat with a colleague over Slack, but it just doesn't work for me. People think too much before they write something. All the good ideas die if people weigh their words too much :-(

ghaff 5y ago
Ask them if they have time for a 30 minute phone call later?
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Right. This feels like classic open floor plan extrovert "I could just grab & interrupt people whenever I needed them" lol.
  - gspr 5y ago
    Of course not. I hate open floor plans. The same would apply if we were all in individual offices. What matters is physical proximity allowing for impromptu informal conversations.
lizknope 5y ago
We had layoffs a year ago and got moved into an existing team that none of us knew. Then they reassigned more people on and off the project. After 2 months our team lead realized that we were having problems so he organized 2 meetings a week but there is no status taking. It is all "What problems are you having and let us try to collectively debug it." Share your screen, other people draw on it, give control of your screen to a coworker and let them try a command. It has actually been great. I have gotten to know 4 of the remote people really well now. I hope to meet them in person some day and have a beer with them. I'm doing semiconductor design, not software in case anybody is wondering.

awscherb 5y ago

I feel like I'm in the minority here as a tech worker, I can't wait to return to office full time and hopefully will be able to work in the office 5 days a week. WFH has just never worked well for me personally. I enjoy the physical separation between work and home, and even given the opportunity to work from anywhere in the world, I would still choose to live where I currently do (nyc).

irrational 5y ago

I don’t want everyone to work remote or everyone work in the office or everyone work remote 2 days and in the office 3 days. What I do want is every person can decide for themselves what is best for themselves without any repercussions. We need to learn that even if we are in the office that not everyone will be so every meeting will have people calling in on zoom - and that is okay.

MattGaiser 5y ago
I think the problem many people have is they hate interacting over Zoom.
- irrational 5y ago
  Well, I hate working in an office. So, I guess we all have to suffer a bit so that everyone can work in their optimal environment.

WYepQ4dNnG 5y ago

Surprise surprise! no one really believed that 2021 would have been the go back to the office, business as usual year right? COVID-19, unfortunately, is here to stay, and by looking at all the people that could get vaccinated and decide not to, and unfortunately all the people around the world that would like to get vaccinated but can't, I have hard time seeing a "going back to normal" anytime soon. Also, we have to hope that the virus does not mutate in more aggressive forms that could defeat the efficacy of current vaccines. Companies small/medium/big should make piece with their mind and accept the fact that remote working is here to stay, it is a viable option and they should stop expecting people to work from an office just for the sake of having people around.

drstewart 5y ago
Just like you say companies have to accept remote because it's hear to stay, some people are going to have to accept normal is going to return because, like you say, covid is hear to stay. Sorry, but if every day is anm state of emergency then no days are.