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The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013)

166 points by hncurious 5y ago

gvb 5y ago
(2013)
- imglorp 5y ago
  @dang
- sputr 5y ago
  Aged badly I would say.
  - nobodyandproud 5y ago
    I don’t think that’s true. Getting hired as an older engineer hasn’t become easier, even in the current climate.
    - EvilEy3 5y ago
      Define older.
      - nobodyandproud 5y ago
        Define “aged badly”.
    - gojomo 5y ago
      Do you have any stats for that?
- dang 5y ago
  Year added. Thanks!
sxp 5y ago
For the HN crowd, it's probably worthwhile to split "STEM" into "high-end engineering" and "normal engineering". The former is suffering from a labor shortage which is why FAANGs and similar companies are willing to pay $300k-600k for engineers with 5-10 years of experience. But for normal SWEs and other engineering fields, there is a glut of talent (https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/) so it can be harder to find an engineering job that pays enough to justify the college tuition. This article is about the latter group. However, there is still a significant shortage of talented engineers in non-SWE roles. We've outsourced engineering jobs such as semiconductor manufacturing and other tech production to other countries which makes it hard for junior engineers to find jobs and learn enough to become highly talented engineers. And that requires heavy investment by the government in our engineering ecosystem so that junior engineers can find good jobs and learn more. Tim Cook explained this well in the context of iPhone screws: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-... > “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Another problem is that just because a person graduates with a degree in X, doesn't mean they are any use at X. I know a bunch of CS degreed people who got out of virtually every coding course in university. Unsurprisingly, they don't work as software engineers at the moment. They are technically part of the group of potential employees for technical work, but they are arguably worse than someone who skimmed Python for Dummies.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Another problem is that just because a person graduates with a degree in X, doesn’t mean they are any use at X Perhaps true, but this: > I know a bunch of CS degreed people who got out of virtually every coding course in university. is arguably a different problem, because CS isn’t Software Engineering, though the right focus within CS study can be a good preparation for work in software engineering. > They are technically part of the group of potential employees for technical work, If they aren’t working as software engineers and aren’t seeking jobs as software engineers, are they really?
jhbadger 5y ago
Also see the "S" of STEM. Many people going into science at the graduate level believe the hype that there is a huge shortage of scientists and that they'll have no trouble getting a tenure-track job in the end. This isn't the case. The system is set up to generate many more Ph.D's than faculty positions because grad students and postdocs are useful sources of labor for faculty. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go into science (there are jobs in industry and government for example), but realize that getting a faculty job is statistically unlikely.
- analog31 5y ago
  What I've observed is that virtually every science grad student is aware of the academic job situation, unless they are deluding themselves or have their heads in the sand. In fact, my dad (chemistry PhD) told me this was already common knowledge in the 1950s. Disclosure: Physics PhD.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - unemphysbro 5y ago
    Another Physics adjacent PhD. When I was in my 20s, I was aware of the situation anecdotally from other grad students. However, I wanted to shoot my shot and by the time I hit my late 20s and 30 all of those weekend hours in the office and the low pay made those software jobs very alluring. So I jumped ship. I miss research in academia quite a bit, I still read papers and review articles if I'm contacted. However, I don't think I'll go back with the work-life balance and higher salaries in industry.
    - NationalPark 5y ago
      Maybe your choice of field was fortunate here, don't they say if you don't have your Nobel in physics by 30 you never will?
      - _game_of_life 5y ago
jl2718 5y ago
> Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, said as much when in 2007 he advocated boosting the number of skilled immigrants entering the United States so as to "suppress" the wages of their U.S. counterparts, which he considered too high. We vote for these people and pay their salaries. Who exactly is it that is supposed to be looking out for us?
- spamizbad 5y ago
  Most voters - and donors - aren't highly skilled engineers. But politicians are judged on their overall stewardship of the economy. Anyway, the US voter is weird; they think all sorts of professions are overpaid. Why should a bunch of nerds sitting at a desk make six figures? With that said, that might be changing - it might be shifting more towards overall worker outcomes over just the stock market.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Indeed. People think it is crazy that government software engineers make 80K for "typing."
  - jl2718 5y ago
    Oh yeah because they did such a great job at raising median citizen wages too. What is this ‘economy’ that they are such great stewards of? Who owns it?
  - iso1631 5y ago
    > Anyway, the US voter is weird; they think all sorts of professions are overpaid. Why should a bunch of nerds sitting at a desk make six figures? But oddly enough not PE teachers, who tend to be the highest paid public employees in the state -- https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/09/21/these-are-the-highest-paid-public-employees-in-every-state-2/2/ https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/09/21/these-are-th...
    - meetups323 5y ago
      Don't be disingenuous. PE teachers and football coaches are not the same at all and you know it. Football coaches bring in literal millions in revenue, your Alabama example costs 8MM/year in salary but returns around 150MM in sponsorship/ad revenue/donations/etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-2016-10#5-alabama--1489-million-21 https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college...
runawaybottle 5y ago
The software industry does a very good job on-boarding people into this career. I don’t know if the same kind of support exists in hardware, for example. If there’s a glut of graduates and a shortage in industry, it could be argued that those industries have archaic processes that don’t build up entry level into those positions (zero training, you are either top of your class, or not, good luck). Even though we are edging towards serious gatekeeping with Leetcode, overall, we are still one of the most generous industries in society.
1970-01-01 5y ago
I have never seen a formal definition for a technologist. How exactly is that position measured? Are we including IT workers in this STEM crisis?
meetups323 5y ago
The author seems to think students go to a school, get a degree that says "Bachelor of STEM", "Masters of STEM", or "Ph.D in STEM", then carry on to apply to job postings that say "STEM degree required". This is so very obviously not the case I have to wonder what the author's motives for not diving even the slightest bit deeper are (for instance, splitting S/T/E/M and showing stats for each).
- gojomo 5y ago
  Indeed, this is a 2013 article, largely based on a favorable/credulous reading of some 2012 & 2013 analyses from the EPI, a left/organized-labor/economic-protectionist/anti-immigration think tank. Those analyses were being marshalled by the EPI, early in Obama's 2nd term, to support their anti-immigration lobbying goals. One of the analyses declares their goal: "Conclusion: Now is not the time to increase the number of H-1B visas and STEM green cards". EPI's obliviousness to variety within the STEM category, including with regard to age cohorts & the dynamism of people moving to- and from- "STEM" jobs no matter their formal degree, was obvious when their writeups were new. EPI somehow manages to spin both the large number of "STEM" grads outside "STEM" industries, and the large number of "non-STEM" grads in "STEM" careers, as simultaneously being bad, instead of a sign of people & businesses dynamically adjusting based on real-world experience, preferences, and changes. EPI's ideal would seem to be: "Stay in the exact field your Motherland trained you for, comrade - or you might mess up the 5-year-plan." My 2013 comment criticizing EPI's inflexible factory-floor mindset: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5605289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5605289 My 2013 comment on EPI's cohort-obliviousness & deceptive wordcrafting to imply, wrongly, that STEM grads aren't finding jobs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5805530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5805530
btjfktntnrn 5y ago
OT: Why do so many news sites hide 75% of their article under a "keep reading" button that you need to push to reveal the rest if the article? There are no ads in this site shown there, you just see the article footnotes and the site footer. Is it to not scare the user with a long article before hooking him?
- sgdpk 5y ago
  Might be as a way to differentiate between page views and people reading the article. I think Quora does this. You get a separate counter for people who expand your post.
  - jdgoesmarching 5y ago
    Maybe to also break reader or rss views, but I feel like we’re a pretty low percentage of the hits.
  - gruez 5y ago
    surely attaching an onscroll handler would also work and be less intrusive?
coding123 5y ago
It's a myth because the demand ended up being in other areas - construction really. Construction will remain massively in demand, especially now that labor pool for that is drying up.
Sindrome 5y ago
More like a Leetcode crisis
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
devwastaken 5y ago
8 years later and it's still correct. If there truly was such a demand companies would be on their knees for new grads, they would take on more junior engineers to learn from their current superior engineers. In software a degree doesn't even get you a call back in job applications.
- bojan 5y ago
  This entire discussion seems to be very US-centric. In the Netherlands, the situation is exactly like you describe how it'd look like if the proposition in the title were correct. Possibly because Dutch companies simply refuse to increase salaries, and 60k per year is still somehow considered good.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Maybe a good use case for a union?
    - EvilEy3 5y ago
      Indeed! Reduce the salary even more, lmao.
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    It's beyond US focused even, it's only really New York and Silicon Valley that are compensated at the insanely high levels I hear about.
    - trutannus 5y ago
      Most definitely. I'm a Canadian who's never had a problem job hunting even as a junior. Reading this is like looking into an alternate reality.
hinkley 5y ago
I was just having several conversations about this with a mixed group of tech people. Several agreed and one who missed the original convo volunteered essentially the same sentiment. It’s like traffic management. More capacity means more cars and traffic stays as bad or gets worse. In many fields, but especially software, there’s a lot of redundant work being done because there are enough developers that companies think they can almost afford (and exploit people to make up the gap) to do it themselves instead of using something that exists. If there were just not enough devs to make your bespoke CMS or enough materials scientists to invent a new shade of pink, we would just deal, and more people would work on things that actually matter. Not a larger fraction of people. More people.
thamer 5y ago
When at the onset of the pandemic the Trump administration decided that foreign students couldn't stay in the U.S. if they weren't attending classes in person, I was surprised to learn how much of the STEM students they represent. Thankfully this was reversed (after strong pushback from universities and many more stakeholders), but it still highlighted how dependent the STEM field is on foreign students. Some numbers[1] from 2017: 81% of Electrical Engineering, 79% of Computer Science, 62% of Mechanical Engineering and 59% of Civil Engineering students are foreigners, to list just the top 4 (the top 2 have by far the largest enrollment). Isn't this a crisis too? To be clear, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be in the country; they are incredibly valuable. But doesn't it show that American students are just not going into these fields in sufficient numbers? The U.S. has amazing engineers and scientists, but it needs to import 3/4 of them. And there's no guarantee that they will even stay in the country once they graduate, it's not that easy. Are American students not interested? Just imagine what they could achieve if the same number of American students went into these careers as do foreign students. A crisis like this pandemic shows just how badly the country would be affected if these foreign students weren't there. Just like for any other resource, a country that has to import most of what it finds valuable is always a serious problem. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign-students-and-graduate-stem-enrollment https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign...
- tzs 5y ago
  The US is over represented on most "top N" rankings of best STEM universities. I'd guess that this leads to a lot of foreign students wanting to go to US grad schools, and that this is why engineering programs have so many foreign students rather than it being due to some shortage of US students wanting to go into those fields.
- derekdahmer 5y ago
  Important to note that these numbers are for graduate level students. Still wild that well over 50% of masters, docs and postdocs in the US are are not US citizens. International students make up around 5% [1] of the undergraduate student body. Can't find the number specifically for STEM but I imagine its still < 20%. [1] https://opendoorsdata.org/data/international-students/enrollment-trends/ https://opendoorsdata.org/data/international-students/enroll...
jdgoesmarching 5y ago
Any industry “shortage” or “crisis” is only from the perspective of the investment class. It is always a “crisis” when the supply of labor isn’t high enough for accountants to name their price, and in this state you will see businesses try to either reduce their own demand (typically via automation or overworking) or increase the supply rather than enter a labor market where they do not have the upper hand. Overnight you will see huge media campaigns about these shortages, depicted as some national crisis. This will be used to justify government expenses on programs that simultaneously subsidize training costs for businesses while increasing their labor supply. At least, that’s how it used to work. Now every company I’ve worked for just backfills American jobs with overseas contracts.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  Good observation. It seems most economic policy these days is made from the perspective of the investment class.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  You could say the same about unemployment though. There’s no economic shortage of jobs, just greedy workers who think too highly of themselves.
  - EvilEy3 5y ago
    Doesn't work that way. Greedy is a made up concept to low-ball people.
    - gruez 5y ago
      So only the "investment class" can be "greedy"? If anything you're proving the parent poster's point, ie. "when market conditions are are in my favor (or against my adversary), it's just supply and demand. when they're not in my favor (or in favor of my adversary), it's a 'shortage' (or whatever sympathy-inducing phrase you can come up with".
      - 5y ago
lordnacho 5y ago
People who study STEM know a bunch of stuff about science and technology. There may be science and tech firms out there that feel that's what they need, but what they actually need is people who can learn how to do the work in their businesses. The connection is that the kid who takes his time to learn how transistors work is more likely than most candidates to be able to figure out how your swaption contracts work. He's more likely to be interested, and he's more likely to be motivated than say the kid who studied French poetry. Or so we think, naturally there are type-O people who just love learning all sorts of things. But neither of those kids knows enough to actually do the job out of college. There's a small head start if you've studied CS and you want to be a coder, or if you studied finance and you want to be a swap trader. But it's actually quite small, and more of an indication of interest than actual competence. The problem is we're now creating a narrative that STEM degrees cause competence in technical fields. It's not true, it's a correlation caused by people who like taking shit apart going to take-shit-apart classes so that they can indulge their curiosity for a bit. That metaskill is then used to get into whatever comes next. Software, solar cell manufacturing, whatever. Look back at your degree. How much if it was actually useful, directly? How much was just exam cramming wastage (formulas, derivations)? I think the only time anything ever happened that I found useful, it was implementing a Bessel function in an option pricing library. So basically a few minutes saved, because everything else in that project (compiling the C lib, studying the option theory, calculating the model params) was of the "I'm gonna learn that now" type. The danger here is we tell a generation of kids that if you study organic chemistry or quantum physics, you'll find a job. What they really need is that get-to-the-bottom attitude that will lead them to more satisfaction both intellectually and professionally. And just so we don't forget, that attitude is just as useful in non-STEM fields. Being able to thoroughly learn something is a universal skill.
runbathtime 5y ago
STEM is in crisis because we need more blacks and browns in order to do good science.
- Stampo00 5y ago
  Hard agree. Women as well. There may not be a labor shortage as such, but there certainly is a diversity, equity, and inclusion shortage.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- imbnwa 5y ago
  I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, can you clarify?
  - runbathtime 5y ago
    Sarcastic
renewiltord 5y ago
The overwhelming view on HN is that labor shortages cannot exist but chip shortages can. The only difference between the two is whether HN users are buying or selling.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  You can always switch jobs for a higher offer, that's not true of a chip purchase.
  - bialpio 5y ago
    Care to explain what you mean? Of course you can switch jobs for a higher offer _if you can find it_ (and if you can "always" do it, it could mean there's a labor shortage), the same way with chips to buy.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      Assuming there is an offer, nothing stops you from taking it. You can offer to pay more for chips, but your competitors aren't necessarily going to sell.
      - bialpio 5y ago
        "assuming there's an offer" = "assuming there's someone willing to sell". Why can you assume it in one case but not in the other? If there's no offer, maybe you're asking for too much? As the top level comment said, the difference is your role in a transaction (when you're seeking employment, you're selling, when you're seeking chips, you're buying).
        Chris2048 5y ago
        Because an employer doesn't need to agree to "sell" its employee, the employee is free to leave for a better offer. The employee has no direct stake in which company employs it (bar stocks or something) other that compensation so is likely to take a high enough offer. The "seller" in the case of chips might be some kind of broker holding out for a better offer - but during a shortage it's likely other companies that actually use those chips holding stock. Since the chips have value for them, and they might actually be your competitor, it's possible they might not sell to you for any price.
bluedino 5y ago
It's hard to find anyone. Desktop support techs? Can't find them. Cabling/wiring installers? Nowhere to be found. PHP CRUD programmers? Nope. CNC machinists? Haven't seen one either.
masterof0 5y ago
I'm truly curious, for folks here that don't like the FANG (leetcode + system design) interview approach. What would you prefer: - (framework x, language y, ....) trivia questions? - take home type of assessments? - make an app with X tech stack while someone else is looking over your shoulders? - "tell me about what you are working on, and the tech stack you are using" type of conversation? I have been in all this types of interview, and I find them to be all flawed, but I would prefer the system design type if I have to choose.
- autotune 5y ago
  My last interview where I accepted the gig was two qa interviews in a conversational style format, I much prefer that over leetcode type questions. I'm DevOps rather than a software engineer though so YMMV.
- __app_dev__ 5y ago
  I would prefer a take home assignment to the typical leetcode questions or a review of my work and code samples. Interestingly I spoke with a former Microsoft Product Manager earlier this year and he told me "the most senior engineers give the worst interviews because you have to use parts of your brain that you haven't used in 20 years". I live in Los Angeles and years ago (and for most companies where I work) algo interviews are not a thing but this year I've been getting contacted non-stop by recruiters including several FAANG so I've been cramming leetcode and it's not fun. I've come to realize that by cramming leetcode I'm also missing out on important topics such as security, real-world performance, and other things that I used to actively study. But at the price Silicon Valley companies pay it can be worth it I guess.
anm89 5y ago
This article seems to treat "stem workers" as exactly interchangeable cogs. Like not even programmers are interchangeable but it seems like a biologist would be interchangeable with a civil engineer here. This seems pretty obviously stupid.
dang 5y ago
Past threads: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848918 - Aug 2019 (102 comments) The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13562277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13562277 - Feb 2017 (177 comments) The STEM Crisis Is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9612021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9612021 - May 2015 (3 comments) The STEM Crisis is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426617 - Sept 2013 (25 comments) The STEM Crisis is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6305671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6305671 - Aug 2013 (145 comments)
tobmlt 5y ago
Does anyone know what the process for interviewing for a highly technical spot at Nvidia looks like? I mean like where you are building specialized scientific computing frameworks for accelerating ML (but also accelerating computations for physics). Assume it’s the sort of role that basically requires a PhD in computational mechanics or optimization. Phd in one/experience in the other or both maybe. Do I grind leet code for this?

166 points by hncurious 5y ago

gvb 5y ago

(2013)

imglorp 5y ago
@dang
sputr 5y ago
Aged badly I would say.
- nobodyandproud 5y ago
  I don’t think that’s true. Getting hired as an older engineer hasn’t become easier, even in the current climate.
  - EvilEy3 5y ago
    Define older.
    - nobodyandproud 5y ago
      Define “aged badly”.
  - gojomo 5y ago
    Do you have any stats for that?
dang 5y ago
Year added. Thanks!

sxp 5y ago

For the HN crowd, it's probably worthwhile to split "STEM" into "high-end engineering" and "normal engineering". The former is suffering from a labor shortage which is why FAANGs and similar companies are willing to pay $300k-600k for engineers with 5-10 years of experience. But for normal SWEs and other engineering fields, there is a glut of talent (https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/) so it can be harder to find an engineering job that pays enough to justify the college tuition. This article is about the latter group. However, there is still a significant shortage of talented engineers in non-SWE roles. We've outsourced engineering jobs such as semiconductor manufacturing and other tech production to other countries which makes it hard for junior engineers to find jobs and learn enough to become highly talented engineers. And that requires heavy investment by the government in our engineering ecosystem so that junior engineers can find good jobs and learn more. Tim Cook explained this well in the context of iPhone screws: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-china-made.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/28/technology/iphones-apple-... > “In the U.S., you could have a meeting of tooling engineers and I’m not sure we could fill the room,” he said. “In China, you could fill multiple football fields.”

MattGaiser 5y ago
Another problem is that just because a person graduates with a degree in X, doesn't mean they are any use at X. I know a bunch of CS degreed people who got out of virtually every coding course in university. Unsurprisingly, they don't work as software engineers at the moment. They are technically part of the group of potential employees for technical work, but they are arguably worse than someone who skimmed Python for Dummies.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Another problem is that just because a person graduates with a degree in X, doesn’t mean they are any use at X Perhaps true, but this: > I know a bunch of CS degreed people who got out of virtually every coding course in university. is arguably a different problem, because CS isn’t Software Engineering, though the right focus within CS study can be a good preparation for work in software engineering. > They are technically part of the group of potential employees for technical work, If they aren’t working as software engineers and aren’t seeking jobs as software engineers, are they really?

jhbadger 5y ago

Also see the "S" of STEM. Many people going into science at the graduate level believe the hype that there is a huge shortage of scientists and that they'll have no trouble getting a tenure-track job in the end. This isn't the case. The system is set up to generate many more Ph.D's than faculty positions because grad students and postdocs are useful sources of labor for faculty. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't go into science (there are jobs in industry and government for example), but realize that getting a faculty job is statistically unlikely.

analog31 5y ago
What I've observed is that virtually every science grad student is aware of the academic job situation, unless they are deluding themselves or have their heads in the sand. In fact, my dad (chemistry PhD) told me this was already common knowledge in the 1950s. Disclosure: Physics PhD.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- unemphysbro 5y ago
  Another Physics adjacent PhD. When I was in my 20s, I was aware of the situation anecdotally from other grad students. However, I wanted to shoot my shot and by the time I hit my late 20s and 30 all of those weekend hours in the office and the low pay made those software jobs very alluring. So I jumped ship. I miss research in academia quite a bit, I still read papers and review articles if I'm contacted. However, I don't think I'll go back with the work-life balance and higher salaries in industry.
  - NationalPark 5y ago
    Maybe your choice of field was fortunate here, don't they say if you don't have your Nobel in physics by 30 you never will?
    - _game_of_life 5y ago

jl2718 5y ago

> Alan Greenspan, former chairman of the Federal Reserve, said as much when in 2007 he advocated boosting the number of skilled immigrants entering the United States so as to "suppress" the wages of their U.S. counterparts, which he considered too high. We vote for these people and pay their salaries. Who exactly is it that is supposed to be looking out for us?

spamizbad 5y ago
Most voters - and donors - aren't highly skilled engineers. But politicians are judged on their overall stewardship of the economy. Anyway, the US voter is weird; they think all sorts of professions are overpaid. Why should a bunch of nerds sitting at a desk make six figures? With that said, that might be changing - it might be shifting more towards overall worker outcomes over just the stock market.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Indeed. People think it is crazy that government software engineers make 80K for "typing."
- jl2718 5y ago
  Oh yeah because they did such a great job at raising median citizen wages too. What is this ‘economy’ that they are such great stewards of? Who owns it?
- iso1631 5y ago
  > Anyway, the US voter is weird; they think all sorts of professions are overpaid. Why should a bunch of nerds sitting at a desk make six figures? But oddly enough not PE teachers, who tend to be the highest paid public employees in the state -- https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/09/21/these-are-the-highest-paid-public-employees-in-every-state-2/2/ https://247wallst.com/special-report/2020/09/21/these-are-th...
  - meetups323 5y ago
    Don't be disingenuous. PE teachers and football coaches are not the same at all and you know it. Football coaches bring in literal millions in revenue, your Alabama example costs 8MM/year in salary but returns around 150MM in sponsorship/ad revenue/donations/etc. https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college-sports-2016-10#5-alabama--1489-million-21 https://www.businessinsider.com/schools-most-revenue-college...

runawaybottle 5y ago

The software industry does a very good job on-boarding people into this career. I don’t know if the same kind of support exists in hardware, for example. If there’s a glut of graduates and a shortage in industry, it could be argued that those industries have archaic processes that don’t build up entry level into those positions (zero training, you are either top of your class, or not, good luck). Even though we are edging towards serious gatekeeping with Leetcode, overall, we are still one of the most generous industries in society.

1970-01-01 5y ago

I have never seen a formal definition for a technologist. How exactly is that position measured? Are we including IT workers in this STEM crisis?

meetups323 5y ago

The author seems to think students go to a school, get a degree that says "Bachelor of STEM", "Masters of STEM", or "Ph.D in STEM", then carry on to apply to job postings that say "STEM degree required". This is so very obviously not the case I have to wonder what the author's motives for not diving even the slightest bit deeper are (for instance, splitting S/T/E/M and showing stats for each).

gojomo 5y ago
Indeed, this is a 2013 article, largely based on a favorable/credulous reading of some 2012 & 2013 analyses from the EPI, a left/organized-labor/economic-protectionist/anti-immigration think tank. Those analyses were being marshalled by the EPI, early in Obama's 2nd term, to support their anti-immigration lobbying goals. One of the analyses declares their goal: "Conclusion: Now is not the time to increase the number of H-1B visas and STEM green cards". EPI's obliviousness to variety within the STEM category, including with regard to age cohorts & the dynamism of people moving to- and from- "STEM" jobs no matter their formal degree, was obvious when their writeups were new. EPI somehow manages to spin both the large number of "STEM" grads outside "STEM" industries, and the large number of "non-STEM" grads in "STEM" careers, as simultaneously being bad, instead of a sign of people & businesses dynamically adjusting based on real-world experience, preferences, and changes. EPI's ideal would seem to be: "Stay in the exact field your Motherland trained you for, comrade - or you might mess up the 5-year-plan." My 2013 comment criticizing EPI's inflexible factory-floor mindset: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5605289 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5605289 My 2013 comment on EPI's cohort-obliviousness & deceptive wordcrafting to imply, wrongly, that STEM grads aren't finding jobs: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5805530 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5805530

btjfktntnrn 5y ago

OT: Why do so many news sites hide 75% of their article under a "keep reading" button that you need to push to reveal the rest if the article? There are no ads in this site shown there, you just see the article footnotes and the site footer. Is it to not scare the user with a long article before hooking him?

sgdpk 5y ago
Might be as a way to differentiate between page views and people reading the article. I think Quora does this. You get a separate counter for people who expand your post.
- jdgoesmarching 5y ago
  Maybe to also break reader or rss views, but I feel like we’re a pretty low percentage of the hits.
- gruez 5y ago
  surely attaching an onscroll handler would also work and be less intrusive?

coding123 5y ago

It's a myth because the demand ended up being in other areas - construction really. Construction will remain massively in demand, especially now that labor pool for that is drying up.

Sindrome 5y ago

More like a Leetcode crisis

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devwastaken 5y ago

8 years later and it's still correct. If there truly was such a demand companies would be on their knees for new grads, they would take on more junior engineers to learn from their current superior engineers. In software a degree doesn't even get you a call back in job applications.

bojan 5y ago
This entire discussion seems to be very US-centric. In the Netherlands, the situation is exactly like you describe how it'd look like if the proposition in the title were correct. Possibly because Dutch companies simply refuse to increase salaries, and 60k per year is still somehow considered good.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Maybe a good use case for a union?
  - EvilEy3 5y ago
    Indeed! Reduce the salary even more, lmao.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  It's beyond US focused even, it's only really New York and Silicon Valley that are compensated at the insanely high levels I hear about.
  - trutannus 5y ago
    Most definitely. I'm a Canadian who's never had a problem job hunting even as a junior. Reading this is like looking into an alternate reality.

hinkley 5y ago

I was just having several conversations about this with a mixed group of tech people. Several agreed and one who missed the original convo volunteered essentially the same sentiment. It’s like traffic management. More capacity means more cars and traffic stays as bad or gets worse. In many fields, but especially software, there’s a lot of redundant work being done because there are enough developers that companies think they can almost afford (and exploit people to make up the gap) to do it themselves instead of using something that exists. If there were just not enough devs to make your bespoke CMS or enough materials scientists to invent a new shade of pink, we would just deal, and more people would work on things that actually matter. Not a larger fraction of people. More people.

thamer 5y ago

When at the onset of the pandemic the Trump administration decided that foreign students couldn't stay in the U.S. if they weren't attending classes in person, I was surprised to learn how much of the STEM students they represent. Thankfully this was reversed (after strong pushback from universities and many more stakeholders), but it still highlighted how dependent the STEM field is on foreign students. Some numbers[1] from 2017: 81% of Electrical Engineering, 79% of Computer Science, 62% of Mechanical Engineering and 59% of Civil Engineering students are foreigners, to list just the top 4 (the top 2 have by far the largest enrollment). Isn't this a crisis too? To be clear, I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be in the country; they are incredibly valuable. But doesn't it show that American students are just not going into these fields in sufficient numbers? The U.S. has amazing engineers and scientists, but it needs to import 3/4 of them. And there's no guarantee that they will even stay in the country once they graduate, it's not that easy. Are American students not interested? Just imagine what they could achieve if the same number of American students went into these careers as do foreign students. A crisis like this pandemic shows just how badly the country would be affected if these foreign students weren't there. Just like for any other resource, a country that has to import most of what it finds valuable is always a serious problem. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign-students-and-graduate-stem-enrollment https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2017/10/11/foreign...

tzs 5y ago
The US is over represented on most "top N" rankings of best STEM universities. I'd guess that this leads to a lot of foreign students wanting to go to US grad schools, and that this is why engineering programs have so many foreign students rather than it being due to some shortage of US students wanting to go into those fields.
derekdahmer 5y ago
Important to note that these numbers are for graduate level students. Still wild that well over 50% of masters, docs and postdocs in the US are are not US citizens. International students make up around 5% [1] of the undergraduate student body. Can't find the number specifically for STEM but I imagine its still < 20%. [1] https://opendoorsdata.org/data/international-students/enrollment-trends/ https://opendoorsdata.org/data/international-students/enroll...

jdgoesmarching 5y ago

Any industry “shortage” or “crisis” is only from the perspective of the investment class. It is always a “crisis” when the supply of labor isn’t high enough for accountants to name their price, and in this state you will see businesses try to either reduce their own demand (typically via automation or overworking) or increase the supply rather than enter a labor market where they do not have the upper hand. Overnight you will see huge media campaigns about these shortages, depicted as some national crisis. This will be used to justify government expenses on programs that simultaneously subsidize training costs for businesses while increasing their labor supply. At least, that’s how it used to work. Now every company I’ve worked for just backfills American jobs with overseas contracts.

spaetzleesser 5y ago
Good observation. It seems most economic policy these days is made from the perspective of the investment class.
MattGaiser 5y ago
You could say the same about unemployment though. There’s no economic shortage of jobs, just greedy workers who think too highly of themselves.
- EvilEy3 5y ago
  Doesn't work that way. Greedy is a made up concept to low-ball people.
  - gruez 5y ago
    So only the "investment class" can be "greedy"? If anything you're proving the parent poster's point, ie. "when market conditions are are in my favor (or against my adversary), it's just supply and demand. when they're not in my favor (or in favor of my adversary), it's a 'shortage' (or whatever sympathy-inducing phrase you can come up with".
    - 5y ago

lordnacho 5y ago

People who study STEM know a bunch of stuff about science and technology. There may be science and tech firms out there that feel that's what they need, but what they actually need is people who can learn how to do the work in their businesses. The connection is that the kid who takes his time to learn how transistors work is more likely than most candidates to be able to figure out how your swaption contracts work. He's more likely to be interested, and he's more likely to be motivated than say the kid who studied French poetry. Or so we think, naturally there are type-O people who just love learning all sorts of things. But neither of those kids knows enough to actually do the job out of college. There's a small head start if you've studied CS and you want to be a coder, or if you studied finance and you want to be a swap trader. But it's actually quite small, and more of an indication of interest than actual competence. The problem is we're now creating a narrative that STEM degrees cause competence in technical fields. It's not true, it's a correlation caused by people who like taking shit apart going to take-shit-apart classes so that they can indulge their curiosity for a bit. That metaskill is then used to get into whatever comes next. Software, solar cell manufacturing, whatever. Look back at your degree. How much if it was actually useful, directly? How much was just exam cramming wastage (formulas, derivations)? I think the only time anything ever happened that I found useful, it was implementing a Bessel function in an option pricing library. So basically a few minutes saved, because everything else in that project (compiling the C lib, studying the option theory, calculating the model params) was of the "I'm gonna learn that now" type. The danger here is we tell a generation of kids that if you study organic chemistry or quantum physics, you'll find a job. What they really need is that get-to-the-bottom attitude that will lead them to more satisfaction both intellectually and professionally. And just so we don't forget, that attitude is just as useful in non-STEM fields. Being able to thoroughly learn something is a universal skill.

runbathtime 5y ago

STEM is in crisis because we need more blacks and browns in order to do good science.

Stampo00 5y ago
Hard agree. Women as well. There may not be a labor shortage as such, but there certainly is a diversity, equity, and inclusion shortage.
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imbnwa 5y ago
I can't tell if this is sarcastic or not, can you clarify?
- runbathtime 5y ago
  Sarcastic

renewiltord 5y ago

The overwhelming view on HN is that labor shortages cannot exist but chip shortages can. The only difference between the two is whether HN users are buying or selling.

Chris2048 5y ago
You can always switch jobs for a higher offer, that's not true of a chip purchase.
- bialpio 5y ago
  Care to explain what you mean? Of course you can switch jobs for a higher offer _if you can find it_ (and if you can "always" do it, it could mean there's a labor shortage), the same way with chips to buy.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Assuming there is an offer, nothing stops you from taking it. You can offer to pay more for chips, but your competitors aren't necessarily going to sell.
    - bialpio 5y ago
      "assuming there's an offer" = "assuming there's someone willing to sell". Why can you assume it in one case but not in the other? If there's no offer, maybe you're asking for too much? As the top level comment said, the difference is your role in a transaction (when you're seeking employment, you're selling, when you're seeking chips, you're buying).
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        Because an employer doesn't need to agree to "sell" its employee, the employee is free to leave for a better offer. The employee has no direct stake in which company employs it (bar stocks or something) other that compensation so is likely to take a high enough offer. The "seller" in the case of chips might be some kind of broker holding out for a better offer - but during a shortage it's likely other companies that actually use those chips holding stock. Since the chips have value for them, and they might actually be your competitor, it's possible they might not sell to you for any price.

bluedino 5y ago

It's hard to find anyone. Desktop support techs? Can't find them. Cabling/wiring installers? Nowhere to be found. PHP CRUD programmers? Nope. CNC machinists? Haven't seen one either.

masterof0 5y ago

I'm truly curious, for folks here that don't like the FANG (leetcode + system design) interview approach. What would you prefer: - (framework x, language y, ....) trivia questions? - take home type of assessments? - make an app with X tech stack while someone else is looking over your shoulders? - "tell me about what you are working on, and the tech stack you are using" type of conversation? I have been in all this types of interview, and I find them to be all flawed, but I would prefer the system design type if I have to choose.

autotune 5y ago
My last interview where I accepted the gig was two qa interviews in a conversational style format, I much prefer that over leetcode type questions. I'm DevOps rather than a software engineer though so YMMV.
__app_dev__ 5y ago
I would prefer a take home assignment to the typical leetcode questions or a review of my work and code samples. Interestingly I spoke with a former Microsoft Product Manager earlier this year and he told me "the most senior engineers give the worst interviews because you have to use parts of your brain that you haven't used in 20 years". I live in Los Angeles and years ago (and for most companies where I work) algo interviews are not a thing but this year I've been getting contacted non-stop by recruiters including several FAANG so I've been cramming leetcode and it's not fun. I've come to realize that by cramming leetcode I'm also missing out on important topics such as security, real-world performance, and other things that I used to actively study. But at the price Silicon Valley companies pay it can be worth it I guess.

anm89 5y ago

This article seems to treat "stem workers" as exactly interchangeable cogs. Like not even programmers are interchangeable but it seems like a biologist would be interchangeable with a civil engineer here. This seems pretty obviously stupid.

dang 5y ago

Past threads: The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20848918 - Aug 2019 (102 comments) The STEM Crisis Is a Myth (2013) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13562277 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13562277 - Feb 2017 (177 comments) The STEM Crisis Is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9612021 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9612021 - May 2015 (3 comments) The STEM Crisis is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6426617 - Sept 2013 (25 comments) The STEM Crisis is a Myth - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6305671 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6305671 - Aug 2013 (145 comments)

tobmlt 5y ago

Does anyone know what the process for interviewing for a highly technical spot at Nvidia looks like? I mean like where you are building specialized scientific computing frameworks for accelerating ML (but also accelerating computations for physics). Assume it’s the sort of role that basically requires a PhD in computational mechanics or optimization. Phd in one/experience in the other or both maybe. Do I grind leet code for this?