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Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

178 points by DLay 5y ago

lettergram 5y ago
I know I’ve considered applying to law school because I want someone to fight these damn lockdowns. I’m curious how much of this is really a combination of more study time and people seeing value in law. Between election cases, lockdowns, etc law has been the center of a lot of the last year.
- haggy102 5y ago
  As a potential law student how would you frame your argument against lockdowns in a world where trust in subject matter experts is down across the board (on both side, pro and against lockdowns)?
  - jl2718 5y ago
    Irrelevant. You’d have to find statute and precedent for the authorities required in enforcement. Law is not supposed to be rhetoric.
  - Covzire 5y ago
    IANAPLS but I'd suggest looking into all the risks that are being completely ignored to chase the one risk that may not that be that big anymore, perhaps never was to warrant the first round of lockdowns to begin with. Who is profitting by keeping the public's focus on COVID like a laser beam and off everything else?
    - cudgy 5y ago
      Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, Twitter, Google, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Pfizer, Moderna, …
  - lettergram 5y ago
    There’s quite a few people I know as well who are considering going to school as well. The gist has been the same, the constitution doesn’t appear to be being followed and as a lawyer you have the ability to defend your rights. I’m not sure what caused this particular spike (a lot of alone time?) but I know a lot of people are feeling this way. In terms of an argument: 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 14th are amendments are clearly being violated in many regions. Further, given the risk profile of this disease (mitigation’s, high survival rate, etc), there’s no reasonable argument to abridge rights. Particularly, for a long period of time
    - NotSammyHagar 5y ago
      Can you describe why you think the Constitution isn't being followed? That's kind of a generic argument. "People might believe something" without there being any rational basis for it.
      - lettergram 5y ago
        In CA and NY the Supreme Court ruled laws baring religious practices as unconstitutional for one. So, clearly there’s some issue there. In LA they were shutting off peoples utilities for not following mayoral edicts. The first amendment for peaceable assembly doesn’t go away — period — during time of crisis. Facebook has a portal setup where the CA Secretary of State is marking content to ban (court case is making its way through the federal circuits) Arguably, the 9th amendment is being violated as it related to vaccine passports. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt9-2-1/ALDE_00000977/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt9-2-1/ALD... There is an absolute insane number of issues with the past year... I can go on and on
        selimthegrim 5y ago
        The ninth amendment means whatever someone wants it to mean, Louisiana enforced quarantines in the 19th century but I never see that mentioned “The Constitution is not a suicide pact”
    - staticman2 5y ago
- otterley 5y ago
  There are plenty of lawyers out there already who are perfectly capable of making cogent arguments as to why lockdowns are unlawful. But the problem is that they are lawful, so even the most eloquent argument will still lose in court. Adding more voices to the chorus won't help, in the same way that having more attorneys arguing that speed limits and income taxes are unconstitutional won't help. On the other hand, going to law school will help you learn the law, so perhaps you will come out with more realistic views than when you went in. :-)
  - lettergram 5y ago
    You assume these people entering law school don’t intend to go into politics. I suspect a large number do intend to make the laws. Also it’s not entirely accurate that lockdowns are lawful. There’s been several Supreme Court cases that have limited what they can do in the past several months.
    - otterley 5y ago
      Spending 6 figures to go to law school for the sole purpose of entering politics is a terrible waste of money. The best way to enter politics is to run in a local race and convince people to vote for you. It'll cost you a lot less than that, and other people may even pay for your campaign. Once you're there, there are staff lawyers to help draft legislation. > Also it’s not entirely accurate that lockdowns are lawful. There’s been several Supreme Court cases that have limited what they can do in the past several months. The only one I'm aware of is an order that prohibited New York from imposing more significant restrictions on churches than shops. That's not a decision that lockdowns are unlawful; it's a decision that they need to be applied evenly. Are you aware of any others?
      - rchaud 5y ago
        Rich, connected people are not going to spend years slumming it in local politics if a more glamorous option is available. A brand-name education and a couple of years at a white-shoe law firm might not get you many votes, but it can open doors to the people that can help you mount a successful campaign.
vwoolf 5y ago
Insane: https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  From the thread link: > Experts attribute the crush of applications to a number of factors, particularly the slowdown in the entry-level job market caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Law school and other graduate programs historically become more popular when jobs are tougher to come by in slow economies. Law school applicants shot up nearly 18% in 2002, amid the bursting of the so-called dot-com bubble. The number of people applying also climbed nearly 4% in 2009, amid the Great Recession. > But current events separate from the economy also prompted more people to consider a law degree this cycle, said Susan Krinsky, the council’s executive vice president for operations. The death of George Floyd, the national reckoning over systemic racism and inequality, and the death of iconic U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg all focused attention on the rule of law and the role lawyers play in pushing for a more equitable society. Election years also tend to yield more law school applicants, she noted.
  - baron816 5y ago
    Has anyone ever done a study on the costs/benefits of funding public defenders? Better funded public defenders, I imagine, would result in fewer and shorter prison sentences (saving money), but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime (costing money).
    - wahern 5y ago
      I don't know about studies, but San Francisco has had an elected public defender's office since 1921. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Public_Defender%27s_Office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Public_Defender%... and http://hrlr.law.columbia.edu/hrlr-online/the-publics-defender-analyzing-the-impact-of-electing-public-defenders/ http://hrlr.law.columbia.edu/hrlr-online/the-publics-defende... An elected office means they can more freely lobby for funding and changes in policy. OTOH, if the office is elected, there's a chance voters might elect a "tough on crime" public defender. https://www.kqed.org/news/11738958/only-sf-elects-its-public-defender-should-it-change https://www.kqed.org/news/11738958/only-sf-elects-its-public... (But see the previous HRLR article, which suggests that public defender office elections are rarely contested, even in moderate or relatively conservative states, which interestingly contain most of the few such offices.)
pmoriarty 5y ago
When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help the rich get richer, working in, say, a public defender's office will probably mean being really overworked and underpaid and not even be able to devote a reasonable amount of time to the people I was defending because of the workload. This made me wonder: do I really want to go from being burnt out in IT to being burnt out in law? It didn't sound very appealing. I'd love to hear a lawyer or someone else who knows more about this to correct me, if I've been mislead. [1] - Just today on HN I was reading someone say that they pay their software developers "much much more" than their they do their legal department: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28050106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28050106
- brundolf 5y ago
  My girlfriend was a lawyer for a few years. Shortly after we met she went to a bootcamp for coding, immediately got a new job, and now (a couple years later) makes something like 4x what she did as a lawyer. Of course she was doing contract work for a small local firm, but that was the best job she could find in the job market as it was.
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
    I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?
    - CheezeIt 5y ago
      You might say playing Minesweeper prepares you for law. Or vice versa. Or coding prepares you for law. It’s omnidirectional.
jl2718 5y ago
Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations. Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learned in a classroom, and law school might have been worth it just for my own purposes. Minus the political activism of course, which I guess is center stage now.
- otterley 5y ago
  > Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. Have you tried to hire a skilled plumber, landscaper, carpenter, or mason in a major city lately? There's a massive tradesperson shortage.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - qeternity 5y ago
    You can thank the unlimited backstop of federal student loans for people to study at any subpar school in any number of useless degrees. This has siphoned off the historical supply of labor in trade schools.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      You can also blame society for undervaluing tradesmen. If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them.
      - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
        > If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them. Maybe for some types of frontline workers, but certainly not for skilled tradesman, who are making bank right now and have for at least the past 20 years since I've lived in my current city. And in terms of "refuse to respect", honestly I think it's the opposite: supply has been so high for skilled tradesmen in my area that it is customers who have consistently been disrespected. I can't tell you the number of times I've hired a plumber, AC guy or other worker, confirmed a time, and then that person just doesn't show up, or at best you get a call 15 minutes before saying they're canceling. It always baffled me how these businesses could give such poor service (I mean, a lot of this type of work is referral based), but it's because demand is just so high they can do that. Of course it's not everyone, and once I found a good, reliable plumber I hung on for dear life, but the lesson I've learned is that workers follow same incentives of supply and demand as employers do.
arn 5y ago
Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off. https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medical-school/applications-medical-school-big-it-fauci-effect https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medica...
- avs733 5y ago
  People are actually inspired by it. Their perception is actually being a doctor is so far away that things will be solved by then.
- jseliger 5y ago
  I would think COVID might have scared more people off Or talking to doctors, or listening to what doctors write and say: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-nurse-or-physicians-assistant-instead-of-a-doctor-the-underrated-perils-of-medical-school https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-n...
  - Gatsky 5y ago
    Great article. Unfortunately medicine continues to attract endless applicants. Universities have worked out that people will eat broken glass and pay for the privelege if they think it will raise their status.
    - jstx1 5y ago
      > if they think it will raise their status. It's still true though - it's one of the highest status professions out there.
  - AllegedAlec 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuP1_f8Z-xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuP1_f8Z-xQ
  - thunkshift1 5y ago
    That was a sobering read
ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
Wonder how much impact shows like Better Call Saul have on this
hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs score very high on the "I'd still do it again" question. 3. The regret sentiment is especially high among anything outside of a top 50 program.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  1: I'm not sure how much larger class sizes will be, since law schools are somewhat constrained in the short term because of room sizes (especially during COVID) and faculty availability. Schools are undoubtedly hurting for revenues due to losses last year, but I think on average there will be less than 10% more students admitted at selective schools. Lower-tier schools may bring on adjuncts to teach more courses, but I wouldn't recommend going to those schools (especially if they're having core courses taught by non-faculty). 2/3: Yes, many regret going to law school. It is 50% more expensive than an MBA since it's an extra year (though summer internships pay very good money, which defrays this somewhat). My recommendation to law school prospects is to only go if: (1) you get into a top-3 school (2) you get a half-ride at a top 20 school, or (3) you are absolutely dead set on being a lawyer and get into a top-30 school disclosure: I went to a T14 school on a scholarship, worked in biglaw for 7 years, and now run a startup. I don't regret going to law school. (T14 is the designation for the top 14 law schools, which are relatively fixed in the USNews rankings.)
- hackitup7 5y ago
  Fwiw I don't think that going to a non-top MBA is generally worth it either... It's very expensive and employer sponsorship isn't that common. But I'm not surprised to learn that most MBAs don't regret going since it's basically 2 years of partying with an internship in between (during which you mainly party). My partner's 2 years in bschool were 2 of the best years of my life.
  - 5y ago
gnicholas 5y ago
It's not surprising that LSAT scores are higher due to the additional time to prep and the ability to control the testing environment. And in reality, it doesn't matter that much. Schools will sort students just like they always have, and students will end up roughly where they otherwise would have. The whole application process is on a curve. It's also worth noting that over the last decade, it's been increasingly easy to get into prestigious law schools. Students got wise to the fact that law school costs a ton and many students don't get high-paying jobs. As a result, applications went down and lower-scoring students got into better schools. In some ways, this most recent stat may be mostly a reversion to the prior mean.
- caddemon 5y ago
  How much does the LSAT saturate though? The SAT, particularly the math section, is already very saturated at the top percentiles, which make up almost the entire application pool to the elite schools. That's why those schools basically just use the SAT as a quick screener now, if they use it at all. Raising scores even more would further diminish its utility and could increase the impact of a silly mistake.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    The LSAT isn't nearly as saturated at the top. As the article mentions, in normal years there are only about 700 applicants in the 175-180 range (roughly the top .5%). Compare this with the SAT, where there are over 50,000 students annually in the 1500+ range. Even at Harvard and Yale Law, the median score is outside this range (173), and all other schools have a lower median.
xyst 5y ago
another red flag of an impending crash?
- thunkshift1 5y ago
  How so?
- GaryTang 5y ago
  Interesting how you came to this conclusion, can you elaborate? I can understand the argument for how increasing law/regulations is detrimental for society in the longrun(ex. europe) but to directly cause a crash is a bit dramatic
armchairhacker 5y ago
Are CS applications surging too? What about other fields? It seems like more people are applying to college in general. Both my current and previous university, year after year keep having record numbers of applicants. And IIRC the CS program is getting more and more competitive. I'm not sure about liberal-arts though.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  I wonder if it's people not taking a gap year, after all there isn't much point if you can't travel.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I think a lot of people took a gap year last year (who otherwise wouldn’t have). Why pay for college if you won’t get to actually go? Many of those people are showing up now as applicants.
    - tester34 5y ago
      To graduate faster
      - ghaff 5y ago
        That's perhaps the logical answer if the certificate is the outcome you care about. But I know a lot of students who decided that it made more sense just to take the year off and go back to school when things were hopefully more normal again.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        I could have been clearer. I agree with you [in that I wouldn't have personally delayed], but I think a substantial fraction of the college-bound crowd made that tradeoff calculation.
  - hikingsimulator 5y ago
    Bringing an anecdotal evidence to your question. That's actually what I did. Currently taking a gap year (more like two) to go study a MSc in AI. I have a previous background and experience in finance.
readonthegoapp 5y ago
Amazing how these two articles were timed to land right on top of each other....it's almost like it was intentional. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "Law School Loses Luster as Debts Mount and Salaries Stagnate" The Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal... https://archive.is/3hGsA https://archive.is/3hGsA
JCM9 5y ago
When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting the “best and brightest” out of graduating classes. Your typical established doctor these days makes what would be considered an early career salary at FAANG—and that’s before considering the crazy amounts of debt that many law and medical students take on. Many lawyers (outside top firms) make very little considering the amount of training required. A savvy tradesman these days (e.g. Plumber) can easily make more than most lawyers and even many physicians. I’ve cited that a lot when giving career advice to those being pressured into a college degree when it’s probably not the right fit for them.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  Money isn't everything, there's a status component related to those professions (especially if you are coming from poorer background) and a lot of people like the idea of being a doctor or a lawyer. TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless (eg. getting paid to optimize ad revenue, speed up PHP execution to save data center energy usage...). Likewise being a plumber isn't that respectable either. And let's not even get into the dating/marriage aspect of it.
  - draw_down 5y ago
    > TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless I agree with this as stated, I just suspect that many/most law jobs also fit this description.
  - TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
    In my job, I get exposed to the owners of plumbing, construction, and other blue collar industries. From what I've seen, their houses are huge, their spouses are gorgeous, and they live in regions where they get to have an incredible quality of life. The owner of a construction company told me once that he makes a 15% profit per year, and he charges far less than the competition because he would feel slimy taking more.
gigatexal 5y ago
I see the increase in people wanting to become lawyers as a negative signal about society. It suggests to me that the law is becoming too complex, that people litigate too much, and this complexity and propensity to litigate becomes a cost. It’s not an entirely thought out hunch on my end but I think it ties in with how complex the tax code is. To me the tax code is needlessly complex. Sure it’ll likely never fit on a single page but does it need to require tombs and be so complex that smart individuals spend time and brain cells finding ways around it to save corporations and the wealthy money instead of working on science or something else that would benefit society?
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The UK has an office for tax simplification. I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of their work though. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification/about https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-si...
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
doggodaddo78 5y ago
There are too many LS grads already. Why pile on debt wo a secure job?
- GaryTang 5y ago
  There is no such thing as a secure job in my experience
rshlo 5y ago
Many comments here assume that going to law school == becoming a lawyer. This is not always true. Many go to law school since it a degree that you can use in many other business fields even without practicing law.
aaron695 5y ago
Every year from 2000-2011 had more applications. https://report.lsac.org/View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsApplicantsAdmitApps&Format=PDF https://report.lsac.org/View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsAppl... https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummary.aspx https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummary.aspx
nikkinana 5y ago
Karen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
gverrilla 5y ago
I was in law school for 2 semesters. I got a job at a top m&a and societary office, in one of the highest profile avenues in the tropical capital I lived in, as an intern. It was summer, lunchtime, and I was walking on said avenue when my boss crossed me. He stopped and all of a sudden reached for my tie knot, to check if the button behind it was correctly buttoned (is this the right word?). He proceeded to tell me I was an employee of his high-tier office even during lunchtime and I should always keep appearances. Luckily I'm deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. I didn't return to the office, and soon after that I quit law school. By that time my tactics to circumvent the office proxy and access forbidden websites had gone viral :P.
- buryat 5y ago
  > Luckily I'm deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. this is contradictory
  - thunkshift1 5y ago
    Lol
- GaryTang 5y ago
  This cracks me up because I had an individual in my fraternity who was an advocate to integrity to the highest degree. “How we conduct ourselves when no one is watching” type of individual. Your boss had good intentions but it just comes off as too much for the average joe like you or I.
  - gverrilla 5y ago
    Not only that. He didn't ask for permission and acted fast. I don't know where you live but I'm pretty sure I would be excused if I had punched him, these are not safe lands. We didn't exchange a few words, or even eyesights - I was not aware he was approaching until he was. Also this particular button hurts by adam's apple so this is stupid as fuck as it is hidden all times by the knot. How you dress has nothing to do with integrity - that's a stupid idea.
brightball 5y ago
I always thought law would be beneficial as a business owner, but not as a profession by itself.
- rchaud 5y ago
  It would, you can take a community college course in business law and save yourself a lot of time.
  - GaryTang 5y ago
    There are many aspects of law that pertain to business outside of a general business law course
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
Other side of the coin: “Law school was once considered a surefire ticket to a comfortable life. Years of tuition increases have made it a fast way to get buried in debt. Recent graduates of the University of Miami School of Law who used federal loans borrowed a median of $163,000. Two years later, half were earning $59,000 or less. That’s the biggest gap between debt and earnings among the top 100 law schools as ranked by U.S. News & World Report, a Wall Street Journal analysis of federal data found.” https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...
- opportune 5y ago
  It’s basically “elite overproduction”. As someone with no dog in this fight I think it’s good in some ways that the amount of law school admissions aren’t being artificially restricted like they are for MD, bad that a lot of these loans are through the government and non-dischargeable, tying down people for a long time with debt and may still end up being forgiven, and interesting that oversupply of lawyers creates a bifurcated market rather than lowering prices across the board. A lot of these problems probably stem from the government loans - if you’re not a school with a reputation to uphold, there’s pretty much no reason not to admit as many people as you reasonably can and charge them as much as possible. Of course with no loans, a lot of people from poorer backgrounds wouldn’t be able to go to school without some form of charity from universities or private donors which is also pretty bad.
- rchaud 5y ago
  Is U of Miami a target school? Meaning do law firms come to campus in order to recruit? Because that is what matters for law school. If you're paying that kind of tuition, you owe it to yourself to do due diligence on how its graduates perform. Back in the day you only had the school's published stats to go on. Those are gently manipulated to show the best possible outcome, e.g. "95% of students found employment within 6 months of graduation". Today you have LinkedIn. Type in a search for U Miami and do a quick count of how many recent grads come up, and where they're working.
vmception 5y ago
Having a lawyer or two as your indentured servant would amplify your rights in this country (US) There are alot of privacy benefits possible Nice to see this becoming more economical to do
cherselle 5y ago
That's a considerable increase since the dot-com bubble. Being in law gives you a considerable salary compared to other jobs. Also, it attracts many people because of its salary, but that's not always the case; the ones that receive high salaries are the people in the top part of the pyramid. It might take a decade but if you're willing to make the grind then, go for it.
justinzollars 5y ago
scary. Also a bad signal for the future (in the US).
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
My brother just did a joint JD/MBA, he said it was one of the hardest things he's ever done. I think it was a pretty smart move to hedge the JD though, due to many of the anecdotes in this thread.
mostertoaster 5y ago
Honestly if you look at the direction the US is going, federal politicians are getting wealthier and wealthier while the middle class erodes into a larger and larger dependent lower class. Most of our congressman are lawyers. You have about two paths to wealth in America. Start a tech company hope to get bought big tech, become a lawyer hope to become a high up well connected politician. Because those connections are proving to pay off.
throwitaway1235 5y ago
Here's some not so positive data - "recent University of Miami law school graduates borrowed a median of $163k, two years later were earning $59k or less."
Gene_Parmesan 5y ago
Phew. Good luck to all of them. I was part of the crowd that used law school to avoid entering the job market on the tail end of the 2007 crisis. I actually really enjoyed law school itself; it's a good fit for people with brains that are a combination of analytical and philosophical. Of course, it's trite at this point to mention the reality that law school does not prepare you whatsoever for the job of being a lawyer. Imagine if med school classes were all about the 'idea' of medicine, the philosophy of medicine, that sort of thing, and actually practicing medicine was limited to electives and extracurriculars. I went to a school that was T20 and on the cusp of being T14, so a good school. I had a half tuition scholarship on $40,000+/yr and still walked away with nearly $150k in student loans. Law schools are extremely cheap for universities to run, but they can get away with charging astronomical tuition because everyone is convinced law school will make them rich. (It won't, unless you have a dedication to the work of being a biglaw attorney that most people don't have.) Universities love law schools because they can use them to pay for more expensive programs (science labs, etc.). The idea of making multiple six figures is almost universally a myth that schools love to cultivate. You only really have a shot at this if you go to a T20 school (or are highly connected). And even if you do get this sort of job, it is soul sucking work; your job at that sort of firm is simply to maximize billings. Nothing of value is created. You will work 70/80 hour weeks creating nothing. I had many friends from school go to these sort of firms and, almost to a one, they have all quit the biglaw scene. But what the law schools don't tell you is how oversaturated the legal employment market is, and oversaturation => depressed salaries. If you are not one of the few to go biglaw (or do not want biglaw), good luck. I worked as a criminal prosecutor because I found the work interesting. I started at $39k -- in a fairly major city, too. I know so many people with eye-wateringly expensive law degrees who are thrilled to be finding contract or temp work at $20 an hour. As for me, it took me about six months to realize the practice of law wasn't for me and a total of six years to get out of it. I ended up rediscovering a love of programming I had had from when I was a kid, and spend 4 years self-studying CS/software dev. I transitioned to a software dev role going on 3 years ago now and feel like a new person. I can't really say I regret law school, firstly because I met my wife and many good friends there and in the legal profession generally, but secondly because there's a chance having the degree from a well known school could pay off down the road in some sort of management role. However, was it worth the cost? Almost certainly not. I'll close by saying, if you are someone who loves building things, you will likely not do well with the law. It is mental work, yes, and logic is involved definitely, but the 'products' you will be creating are motions, briefs, and memos. If you are someone who has a love for collaborative problem solving, you will likely hate it. There is very little I found collaborative in law. Even in law school, absurdly competitive attitudes abound, and in the big firms themselves, the ones who will succeed are in constant 'cold war'-style competition for things like partner track. If your work is litigation, then by definition the work is the polar opposite of collaborative. This was what probably put me off the practice the most; I would be handling a criminal case and my brain would be aching for an easily available compromise, but being an advocate means fighting for your client (in my case, the "people").
runbathtime 5y ago
We need more law students who aren't on some social justice cause.
- dang 5y ago
  Please stop posting ideological flamewar comments to HN or we'll have to ban you. It's not what this site is for, regardless of which ideological flavor you favor. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - runbathtime 5y ago
    Ok, it would be nice if you banned the comments from the other side of the ideological spectrum, to be consistent.
    - dang 5y ago
      We do that all the time. Everybody thinks the site and the mods are biased against their team. It's a natural reflex, but a cognitive bias and quite inaccurate. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22always%20feels%22%20mods%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

178 points by DLay 5y ago

I know I’ve considered applying to law school because I want someone to fight these damn lockdowns. I’m curious how much of this is really a combination of more study time and people seeing value in law. Between election cases, lockdowns, etc law has been the center of a lot of the last year.

haggy102 5y ago
As a potential law student how would you frame your argument against lockdowns in a world where trust in subject matter experts is down across the board (on both side, pro and against lockdowns)?
- jl2718 5y ago
  Irrelevant. You’d have to find statute and precedent for the authorities required in enforcement. Law is not supposed to be rhetoric.
- Covzire 5y ago
  IANAPLS but I'd suggest looking into all the risks that are being completely ignored to chase the one risk that may not that be that big anymore, perhaps never was to warrant the first round of lockdowns to begin with. Who is profitting by keeping the public's focus on COVID like a laser beam and off everything else?
  - cudgy 5y ago
    Amazon, Ebay, Facebook, Twitter, Google, CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, Pfizer, Moderna, …
- lettergram 5y ago
  There’s quite a few people I know as well who are considering going to school as well. The gist has been the same, the constitution doesn’t appear to be being followed and as a lawyer you have the ability to defend your rights. I’m not sure what caused this particular spike (a lot of alone time?) but I know a lot of people are feeling this way. In terms of an argument: 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, 14th are amendments are clearly being violated in many regions. Further, given the risk profile of this disease (mitigation’s, high survival rate, etc), there’s no reasonable argument to abridge rights. Particularly, for a long period of time
  - NotSammyHagar 5y ago
    Can you describe why you think the Constitution isn't being followed? That's kind of a generic argument. "People might believe something" without there being any rational basis for it.
    - lettergram 5y ago
      In CA and NY the Supreme Court ruled laws baring religious practices as unconstitutional for one. So, clearly there’s some issue there. In LA they were shutting off peoples utilities for not following mayoral edicts. The first amendment for peaceable assembly doesn’t go away — period — during time of crisis. Facebook has a portal setup where the CA Secretary of State is marking content to ban (court case is making its way through the federal circuits) Arguably, the 9th amendment is being violated as it related to vaccine passports. https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt9-2-1/ALDE_00000977/ https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt9-2-1/ALD... There is an absolute insane number of issues with the past year... I can go on and on
      - selimthegrim 5y ago
        The ninth amendment means whatever someone wants it to mean, Louisiana enforced quarantines in the 19th century but I never see that mentioned “The Constitution is not a suicide pact”
  - staticman2 5y ago
otterley 5y ago
There are plenty of lawyers out there already who are perfectly capable of making cogent arguments as to why lockdowns are unlawful. But the problem is that they are lawful, so even the most eloquent argument will still lose in court. Adding more voices to the chorus won't help, in the same way that having more attorneys arguing that speed limits and income taxes are unconstitutional won't help. On the other hand, going to law school will help you learn the law, so perhaps you will come out with more realistic views than when you went in. :-)
- lettergram 5y ago
  You assume these people entering law school don’t intend to go into politics. I suspect a large number do intend to make the laws. Also it’s not entirely accurate that lockdowns are lawful. There’s been several Supreme Court cases that have limited what they can do in the past several months.
  - otterley 5y ago
    Spending 6 figures to go to law school for the sole purpose of entering politics is a terrible waste of money. The best way to enter politics is to run in a local race and convince people to vote for you. It'll cost you a lot less than that, and other people may even pay for your campaign. Once you're there, there are staff lawyers to help draft legislation. > Also it’s not entirely accurate that lockdowns are lawful. There’s been several Supreme Court cases that have limited what they can do in the past several months. The only one I'm aware of is an order that prohibited New York from imposing more significant restrictions on churches than shops. That's not a decision that lockdowns are unlawful; it's a decision that they need to be applied evenly. Are you aware of any others?
    - rchaud 5y ago
      Rich, connected people are not going to spend years slumming it in local politics if a more glamorous option is available. A brand-name education and a couple of years at a white-shoe law firm might not get you many votes, but it can open doors to the people that can help you mount a successful campaign.

vwoolf 5y ago

Insane: https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...

toomuchtodo 5y ago
From the thread link: > Experts attribute the crush of applications to a number of factors, particularly the slowdown in the entry-level job market caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. Law school and other graduate programs historically become more popular when jobs are tougher to come by in slow economies. Law school applicants shot up nearly 18% in 2002, amid the bursting of the so-called dot-com bubble. The number of people applying also climbed nearly 4% in 2009, amid the Great Recession. > But current events separate from the economy also prompted more people to consider a law degree this cycle, said Susan Krinsky, the council’s executive vice president for operations. The death of George Floyd, the national reckoning over systemic racism and inequality, and the death of iconic U.S. Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg all focused attention on the rule of law and the role lawyers play in pushing for a more equitable society. Election years also tend to yield more law school applicants, she noted.
- baron816 5y ago
  Has anyone ever done a study on the costs/benefits of funding public defenders? Better funded public defenders, I imagine, would result in fewer and shorter prison sentences (saving money), but I guess also have some potential for an increase in crime (costing money).
  - wahern 5y ago
    I don't know about studies, but San Francisco has had an elected public defender's office since 1921. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Public_Defender%27s_Office https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Public_Defender%... and http://hrlr.law.columbia.edu/hrlr-online/the-publics-defender-analyzing-the-impact-of-electing-public-defenders/ http://hrlr.law.columbia.edu/hrlr-online/the-publics-defende... An elected office means they can more freely lobby for funding and changes in policy. OTOH, if the office is elected, there's a chance voters might elect a "tough on crime" public defender. https://www.kqed.org/news/11738958/only-sf-elects-its-public-defender-should-it-change https://www.kqed.org/news/11738958/only-sf-elects-its-public... (But see the previous HRLR article, which suggests that public defender office elections are rarely contested, even in moderate or relatively conservative states, which interestingly contain most of the few such offices.)

pmoriarty 5y ago

When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts: - something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law - there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers - while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that's only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1] For someone like me, who doesn't just want to help the rich get richer, working in, say, a public defender's office will probably mean being really overworked and underpaid and not even be able to devote a reasonable amount of time to the people I was defending because of the workload. This made me wonder: do I really want to go from being burnt out in IT to being burnt out in law? It didn't sound very appealing. I'd love to hear a lawyer or someone else who knows more about this to correct me, if I've been mislead. [1] - Just today on HN I was reading someone say that they pay their software developers "much much more" than their they do their legal department: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28050106 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28050106

brundolf 5y ago
My girlfriend was a lawyer for a few years. Shortly after we met she went to a bootcamp for coding, immediately got a new job, and now (a couple years later) makes something like 4x what she did as a lawyer. Of course she was doing contract work for a small local firm, but that was the best job she could find in the job market as it was.
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  I always wondered if studying law, also prepares your mind for coding. Lots of complex preconditions, trying to find clauses that catch all side effects - sounds familiar to me. So transitioning from law to coding is maybe "just" learning some programming language and technical details, but the mind is already somewhat prepared to the thinking?
  - CheezeIt 5y ago
    You might say playing Minesweeper prepares you for law. Or vice versa. Or coding prepares you for law. It’s omnidirectional.

jl2718 5y ago

Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations. Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learned in a classroom, and law school might have been worth it just for my own purposes. Minus the political activism of course, which I guess is center stage now.

otterley 5y ago
> Think CAD/CAM, not plumber. Have you tried to hire a skilled plumber, landscaper, carpenter, or mason in a major city lately? There's a massive tradesperson shortage.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- qeternity 5y ago
  You can thank the unlimited backstop of federal student loans for people to study at any subpar school in any number of useless degrees. This has siphoned off the historical supply of labor in trade schools.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    You can also blame society for undervaluing tradesmen. If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them.
    - hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
      > If the pandemic has taught us anything it is that even though we are able to recognize how essential a lot of jobs are, we will still refuse to respect or properly compensate the people who work them. Maybe for some types of frontline workers, but certainly not for skilled tradesman, who are making bank right now and have for at least the past 20 years since I've lived in my current city. And in terms of "refuse to respect", honestly I think it's the opposite: supply has been so high for skilled tradesmen in my area that it is customers who have consistently been disrespected. I can't tell you the number of times I've hired a plumber, AC guy or other worker, confirmed a time, and then that person just doesn't show up, or at best you get a call 15 minutes before saying they're canceling. It always baffled me how these businesses could give such poor service (I mean, a lot of this type of work is referral based), but it's because demand is just so high they can do that. Of course it's not everyone, and once I found a good, reliable plumber I hung on for dear life, but the lesson I've learned is that workers follow same incentives of supply and demand as employers do.

arn 5y ago

Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off. https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medical-school/applications-medical-school-big-it-fauci-effect https://www.ama-assn.org/residents-students/preparing-medica...

avs733 5y ago
People are actually inspired by it. Their perception is actually being a doctor is so far away that things will be solved by then.
jseliger 5y ago
I would think COVID might have scared more people off Or talking to doctors, or listening to what doctors write and say: https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-nurse-or-physicians-assistant-instead-of-a-doctor-the-underrated-perils-of-medical-school https://jakeseliger.com/2012/10/20/why-you-should-become-a-n...
- Gatsky 5y ago
  Great article. Unfortunately medicine continues to attract endless applicants. Universities have worked out that people will eat broken glass and pay for the privelege if they think it will raise their status.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > if they think it will raise their status. It's still true though - it's one of the highest status professions out there.
- AllegedAlec 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuP1_f8Z-xQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuP1_f8Z-xQ
- thunkshift1 5y ago
  That was a sobering read

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

Wonder how much impact shows like Better Call Saul have on this

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago

Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt: 1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too). 2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs score very high on the "I'd still do it again" question. 3. The regret sentiment is especially high among anything outside of a top 50 program.

gnicholas 5y ago
1: I'm not sure how much larger class sizes will be, since law schools are somewhat constrained in the short term because of room sizes (especially during COVID) and faculty availability. Schools are undoubtedly hurting for revenues due to losses last year, but I think on average there will be less than 10% more students admitted at selective schools. Lower-tier schools may bring on adjuncts to teach more courses, but I wouldn't recommend going to those schools (especially if they're having core courses taught by non-faculty). 2/3: Yes, many regret going to law school. It is 50% more expensive than an MBA since it's an extra year (though summer internships pay very good money, which defrays this somewhat). My recommendation to law school prospects is to only go if: (1) you get into a top-3 school (2) you get a half-ride at a top 20 school, or (3) you are absolutely dead set on being a lawyer and get into a top-30 school disclosure: I went to a T14 school on a scholarship, worked in biglaw for 7 years, and now run a startup. I don't regret going to law school. (T14 is the designation for the top 14 law schools, which are relatively fixed in the USNews rankings.)
hackitup7 5y ago
Fwiw I don't think that going to a non-top MBA is generally worth it either... It's very expensive and employer sponsorship isn't that common. But I'm not surprised to learn that most MBAs don't regret going since it's basically 2 years of partying with an internship in between (during which you mainly party). My partner's 2 years in bschool were 2 of the best years of my life.
- 5y ago

gnicholas 5y ago

It's not surprising that LSAT scores are higher due to the additional time to prep and the ability to control the testing environment. And in reality, it doesn't matter that much. Schools will sort students just like they always have, and students will end up roughly where they otherwise would have. The whole application process is on a curve. It's also worth noting that over the last decade, it's been increasingly easy to get into prestigious law schools. Students got wise to the fact that law school costs a ton and many students don't get high-paying jobs. As a result, applications went down and lower-scoring students got into better schools. In some ways, this most recent stat may be mostly a reversion to the prior mean.

caddemon 5y ago
How much does the LSAT saturate though? The SAT, particularly the math section, is already very saturated at the top percentiles, which make up almost the entire application pool to the elite schools. That's why those schools basically just use the SAT as a quick screener now, if they use it at all. Raising scores even more would further diminish its utility and could increase the impact of a silly mistake.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  The LSAT isn't nearly as saturated at the top. As the article mentions, in normal years there are only about 700 applicants in the 175-180 range (roughly the top .5%). Compare this with the SAT, where there are over 50,000 students annually in the 1500+ range. Even at Harvard and Yale Law, the median score is outside this range (173), and all other schools have a lower median.

xyst 5y ago

another red flag of an impending crash?

thunkshift1 5y ago
How so?
GaryTang 5y ago
Interesting how you came to this conclusion, can you elaborate? I can understand the argument for how increasing law/regulations is detrimental for society in the longrun(ex. europe) but to directly cause a crash is a bit dramatic

armchairhacker 5y ago

Are CS applications surging too? What about other fields? It seems like more people are applying to college in general. Both my current and previous university, year after year keep having record numbers of applicants. And IIRC the CS program is getting more and more competitive. I'm not sure about liberal-arts though.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
I wonder if it's people not taking a gap year, after all there isn't much point if you can't travel.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I think a lot of people took a gap year last year (who otherwise wouldn’t have). Why pay for college if you won’t get to actually go? Many of those people are showing up now as applicants.
  - tester34 5y ago
    To graduate faster
    - ghaff 5y ago
      That's perhaps the logical answer if the certificate is the outcome you care about. But I know a lot of students who decided that it made more sense just to take the year off and go back to school when things were hopefully more normal again.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      I could have been clearer. I agree with you [in that I wouldn't have personally delayed], but I think a substantial fraction of the college-bound crowd made that tradeoff calculation.
- hikingsimulator 5y ago
  Bringing an anecdotal evidence to your question. That's actually what I did. Currently taking a gap year (more like two) to go study a MSc in AI. I have a previous background and experience in finance.

readonthegoapp 5y ago

Amazing how these two articles were timed to land right on top of each other....it's almost like it was intentional. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ "Law School Loses Luster as Debts Mount and Salaries Stagnate" The Wall Street Journal https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal... https://archive.is/3hGsA https://archive.is/3hGsA

JCM9 5y ago

When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case. Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting the “best and brightest” out of graduating classes. Your typical established doctor these days makes what would be considered an early career salary at FAANG—and that’s before considering the crazy amounts of debt that many law and medical students take on. Many lawyers (outside top firms) make very little considering the amount of training required. A savvy tradesman these days (e.g. Plumber) can easily make more than most lawyers and even many physicians. I’ve cited that a lot when giving career advice to those being pressured into a college degree when it’s probably not the right fit for them.

reader_mode 5y ago
Money isn't everything, there's a status component related to those professions (especially if you are coming from poorer background) and a lot of people like the idea of being a doctor or a lawyer. TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless (eg. getting paid to optimize ad revenue, speed up PHP execution to save data center energy usage...). Likewise being a plumber isn't that respectable either. And let's not even get into the dating/marriage aspect of it.
- draw_down 5y ago
  > TBH you have to be a certain kind of person to enjoy sitting in front of a screen 8H a day to work on stuff most people would find meaningless I agree with this as stated, I just suspect that many/most law jobs also fit this description.
- TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
  In my job, I get exposed to the owners of plumbing, construction, and other blue collar industries. From what I've seen, their houses are huge, their spouses are gorgeous, and they live in regions where they get to have an incredible quality of life. The owner of a construction company told me once that he makes a 15% profit per year, and he charges far less than the competition because he would feel slimy taking more.

gigatexal 5y ago

I see the increase in people wanting to become lawyers as a negative signal about society. It suggests to me that the law is becoming too complex, that people litigate too much, and this complexity and propensity to litigate becomes a cost. It’s not an entirely thought out hunch on my end but I think it ties in with how complex the tax code is. To me the tax code is needlessly complex. Sure it’ll likely never fit on a single page but does it need to require tombs and be so complex that smart individuals spend time and brain cells finding ways around it to save corporations and the wealthy money instead of working on science or something else that would benefit society?

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The UK has an office for tax simplification. I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of their work though. https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-simplification/about https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-tax-si...

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

doggodaddo78 5y ago

There are too many LS grads already. Why pile on debt wo a secure job?

GaryTang 5y ago
There is no such thing as a secure job in my experience

rshlo 5y ago

Many comments here assume that going to law school == becoming a lawyer. This is not always true. Many go to law school since it a degree that you can use in many other business fields even without practicing law.

aaron695 5y ago

Every year from 2000-2011 had more applications. https://report.lsac.org/View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsApplicantsAdmitApps&Format=PDF https://report.lsac.org/View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsAppl... https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummary.aspx https://report.lsac.org/VolumeSummary.aspx

nikkinana 5y ago

Karen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gverrilla 5y ago

I was in law school for 2 semesters. I got a job at a top m&a and societary office, in one of the highest profile avenues in the tropical capital I lived in, as an intern. It was summer, lunchtime, and I was walking on said avenue when my boss crossed me. He stopped and all of a sudden reached for my tie knot, to check if the button behind it was correctly buttoned (is this the right word?). He proceeded to tell me I was an employee of his high-tier office even during lunchtime and I should always keep appearances. Luckily I'm deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. I didn't return to the office, and soon after that I quit law school. By that time my tactics to circumvent the office proxy and access forbidden websites had gone viral :P.

buryat 5y ago
> Luckily I'm deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. this is contradictory
- thunkshift1 5y ago
  Lol
GaryTang 5y ago
This cracks me up because I had an individual in my fraternity who was an advocate to integrity to the highest degree. “How we conduct ourselves when no one is watching” type of individual. Your boss had good intentions but it just comes off as too much for the average joe like you or I.
- gverrilla 5y ago
  Not only that. He didn't ask for permission and acted fast. I don't know where you live but I'm pretty sure I would be excused if I had punched him, these are not safe lands. We didn't exchange a few words, or even eyesights - I was not aware he was approaching until he was. Also this particular button hurts by adam's apple so this is stupid as fuck as it is hidden all times by the knot. How you dress has nothing to do with integrity - that's a stupid idea.

brightball 5y ago

I always thought law would be beneficial as a business owner, but not as a profession by itself.

rchaud 5y ago
It would, you can take a community college course in business law and save yourself a lot of time.
- GaryTang 5y ago
  There are many aspects of law that pertain to business outside of a general business law course

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

Other side of the coin: “Law school was once considered a surefire ticket to a comfortable life. Years of tuition increases have made it a fast way to get buried in debt. Recent graduates of the University of Miami School of Law who used federal loans borrowed a median of $163,000. Two years later, half were earning $59,000 or less. That’s the biggest gap between debt and earnings among the top 100 law schools as ranked by U.S. News & World Report, a Wall Street Journal analysis of federal data found.” https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855 https://www.wsj.com/articles/law-school-student-debt-low-sal...

opportune 5y ago
It’s basically “elite overproduction”. As someone with no dog in this fight I think it’s good in some ways that the amount of law school admissions aren’t being artificially restricted like they are for MD, bad that a lot of these loans are through the government and non-dischargeable, tying down people for a long time with debt and may still end up being forgiven, and interesting that oversupply of lawyers creates a bifurcated market rather than lowering prices across the board. A lot of these problems probably stem from the government loans - if you’re not a school with a reputation to uphold, there’s pretty much no reason not to admit as many people as you reasonably can and charge them as much as possible. Of course with no loans, a lot of people from poorer backgrounds wouldn’t be able to go to school without some form of charity from universities or private donors which is also pretty bad.
rchaud 5y ago
Is U of Miami a target school? Meaning do law firms come to campus in order to recruit? Because that is what matters for law school. If you're paying that kind of tuition, you owe it to yourself to do due diligence on how its graduates perform. Back in the day you only had the school's published stats to go on. Those are gently manipulated to show the best possible outcome, e.g. "95% of students found employment within 6 months of graduation". Today you have LinkedIn. Type in a search for U Miami and do a quick count of how many recent grads come up, and where they're working.

vmception 5y ago

Having a lawyer or two as your indentured servant would amplify your rights in this country (US) There are alot of privacy benefits possible Nice to see this becoming more economical to do

cherselle 5y ago

That's a considerable increase since the dot-com bubble. Being in law gives you a considerable salary compared to other jobs. Also, it attracts many people because of its salary, but that's not always the case; the ones that receive high salaries are the people in the top part of the pyramid. It might take a decade but if you're willing to make the grind then, go for it.

justinzollars 5y ago

scary. Also a bad signal for the future (in the US).

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

My brother just did a joint JD/MBA, he said it was one of the hardest things he's ever done. I think it was a pretty smart move to hedge the JD though, due to many of the anecdotes in this thread.

mostertoaster 5y ago

Honestly if you look at the direction the US is going, federal politicians are getting wealthier and wealthier while the middle class erodes into a larger and larger dependent lower class. Most of our congressman are lawyers. You have about two paths to wealth in America. Start a tech company hope to get bought big tech, become a lawyer hope to become a high up well connected politician. Because those connections are proving to pay off.

throwitaway1235 5y ago

Here's some not so positive data - "recent University of Miami law school graduates borrowed a median of $163k, two years later were earning $59k or less."

Gene_Parmesan 5y ago

Phew. Good luck to all of them. I was part of the crowd that used law school to avoid entering the job market on the tail end of the 2007 crisis. I actually really enjoyed law school itself; it's a good fit for people with brains that are a combination of analytical and philosophical. Of course, it's trite at this point to mention the reality that law school does not prepare you whatsoever for the job of being a lawyer. Imagine if med school classes were all about the 'idea' of medicine, the philosophy of medicine, that sort of thing, and actually practicing medicine was limited to electives and extracurriculars. I went to a school that was T20 and on the cusp of being T14, so a good school. I had a half tuition scholarship on $40,000+/yr and still walked away with nearly $150k in student loans. Law schools are extremely cheap for universities to run, but they can get away with charging astronomical tuition because everyone is convinced law school will make them rich. (It won't, unless you have a dedication to the work of being a biglaw attorney that most people don't have.) Universities love law schools because they can use them to pay for more expensive programs (science labs, etc.). The idea of making multiple six figures is almost universally a myth that schools love to cultivate. You only really have a shot at this if you go to a T20 school (or are highly connected). And even if you do get this sort of job, it is soul sucking work; your job at that sort of firm is simply to maximize billings. Nothing of value is created. You will work 70/80 hour weeks creating nothing. I had many friends from school go to these sort of firms and, almost to a one, they have all quit the biglaw scene. But what the law schools don't tell you is how oversaturated the legal employment market is, and oversaturation => depressed salaries. If you are not one of the few to go biglaw (or do not want biglaw), good luck. I worked as a criminal prosecutor because I found the work interesting. I started at $39k -- in a fairly major city, too. I know so many people with eye-wateringly expensive law degrees who are thrilled to be finding contract or temp work at $20 an hour. As for me, it took me about six months to realize the practice of law wasn't for me and a total of six years to get out of it. I ended up rediscovering a love of programming I had had from when I was a kid, and spend 4 years self-studying CS/software dev. I transitioned to a software dev role going on 3 years ago now and feel like a new person. I can't really say I regret law school, firstly because I met my wife and many good friends there and in the legal profession generally, but secondly because there's a chance having the degree from a well known school could pay off down the road in some sort of management role. However, was it worth the cost? Almost certainly not. I'll close by saying, if you are someone who loves building things, you will likely not do well with the law. It is mental work, yes, and logic is involved definitely, but the 'products' you will be creating are motions, briefs, and memos. If you are someone who has a love for collaborative problem solving, you will likely hate it. There is very little I found collaborative in law. Even in law school, absurdly competitive attitudes abound, and in the big firms themselves, the ones who will succeed are in constant 'cold war'-style competition for things like partner track. If your work is litigation, then by definition the work is the polar opposite of collaborative. This was what probably put me off the practice the most; I would be handling a criminal case and my brain would be aching for an easily available compromise, but being an advocate means fighting for your client (in my case, the "people").

runbathtime 5y ago

We need more law students who aren't on some social justice cause.

dang 5y ago
Please stop posting ideological flamewar comments to HN or we'll have to ban you. It's not what this site is for, regardless of which ideological flavor you favor. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- runbathtime 5y ago
  Ok, it would be nice if you banned the comments from the other side of the ideological spectrum, to be consistent.
  - dang 5y ago
    We do that all the time. Everybody thinks the site and the mods are biased against their team. It's a natural reflex, but a cognitive bias and quite inaccurate. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22always%20feels%22%20mods%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...