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Home Depot is introducing power tools that won’t work if they’re stolen

• throwaway9870 5y ago
  Home Depot near me has all Milwaukee M12 and M18 tools locked up. When the Milwaukee rep was getting something out of the case for me, I mentioned how unfortunate it is that they have to do this. He said they lost over $700k in Milwaukee tools alone in that store last year. Quite amazing and almost hard to believe. I feel sorry for these stores trying to walk the line between respecting your customers and not being robbed blind.
  • DavidPeiffer 5y ago
    I wonder if it was 700k retail or wholesale? Regardless, it was a big enough problem across the chain to justify adding complexity and cost to the product. Retailers are allergic to price increases and manufacturers tend to shy away from anything that increases the cost without being a marketable benefit or cost savings, so no doubt Home Depot recognizing the size of the problem and initiating a solution made it happen.
    • np_tedious 5y ago
      Crimes (theft, drug seizures, whatever) usually reported in largest possible numbers. So likely retail
      • Y_Y 5y ago
        Exactly. News reports never respect the very important difference between a thousand grams and a kilo.
        • netrus 5y ago
          I think the downvotes are unjust. For those missing the point: When large quantities of drugs are seized, often times the 'street value' of the drug is reported. But large quantities can only be found some steps removed from the end customer in the supply chain. Given the risks in distribution, the difference in retail and wholesale price can be significant.
          • Y_Y 5y ago
            Thank you, that is exactly what I meant.
          • np_tedious 5y ago
            Agreed the downvotes are not justified. This is this clearly what parent meant and what I alluded to in preceding comment
    • ethbr0 5y ago
      The power tool market is likely more responsive than your average supplier. They sell a huge volume through a limited number of retailers (Home Depot & Lowes), and there are a limited number of manufacturers [0]. So if retail says there's a problem, it becomes a problem for them. The other side of this is professional customers, who will probably use the same technology. A tool that doesn't work if it's stolen off a job site is a big value add to professional contractors. [0] https://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/ https://pressurewashr.com/tool-industry-behemoths/
  • social_quotient 5y ago
    I wonder if this has increased from/due to self checkout?
    • ceejayoz 5y ago
      My grocery store has an app that lets me scan as I go through the store, then just pay in about 10 seconds at the self-checkout. I'd love to know what that has done to shrink numbers.
      • TeMPOraL 5y ago
        How many cameras are there in the store? I don't usually pay much attention to self-checkout (call me a luddite, but I find regular checkout to go faster and with less hassle), but the other day when standing in a queue, I looked at the ceiling and saw a ton of cameras - one camera per self-checkout station, + some extra in the general area. Additionally, each checkout station used a big tablet as its main display, and each of those tablets had the usual built-in selfie camera - I'd be surprised if these cameras didn't take photos of customers using the stations.
        • bitwize 5y ago
          Having a trained cashier quickly scan your items for you does indeed beat fumbling with the scanning process while the GLaDOS built into the register judges you for not doing it properly.
          • TeMPOraL 5y ago
            Yes. And then you look at it funny and it exclaims, "unrecognized item in the bagging area", and asks you to assume the party escort submission position, while it fetches the party associate clerk.
          • ceejayoz 5y ago
            That's why the app is nice; it's on my phone, I do it as I go along, and there's no scale involved. Faster than both self-checkout and cashier, in my experience, especially on a busy day.
  • eplanit 5y ago
    In the bay area and California in general, they've been basically been told that they're on their own regarding thefts. One can simply walk in and take hundreds of dollars worth of merchandise and leave, because the DA will not prosecute. Security guards won't intervene, and the thieves know all this. It has become a spectacle. Between online sales and this, I sympathize with anyone in brick and mortar retail sales. https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Prop-47-which-reduced-some-felonies-to-13926211.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/news/article/Prop-47-which-reduc... https://news.yahoo.com/looters-ransack-san-francisco-neiman-141600425.html https://news.yahoo.com/looters-ransack-san-francisco-neiman-...
    • peter422 5y ago
      I’ve spent a lot of time at Bay Area Home Depots, and I’ve only seen blatant theft once, and the security guards did attempt to intervene. What is the support for your statement? Also “the DA” is a ton of different people throughout the Bay Area, and the DA that everybody complains about has exactly 0 HDs in his jurisdiction.
      • salawat 5y ago
        It was a State level Proposition as far as I am aware, so it isn't merely the case of one problematic DA. I could be misunderstanding something though.
        • beerandt 5y ago
          Statewide laws still rely on local law enforcement and prosecutors to be enforced.
        • tzs 5y ago
          The state level proposition does not require DAs to ignore shoplifting. It just turns it (and a few other crimes) from felonies into misdemeanors when the amount involved does not exceed $950. Misdemeanor shoplifting can still earn up to 180 days in county jail and a fine of up to $1000, but only if a DA prosecutes.
      • 5y ago
  • nyjah 5y ago
    At the home depot near me if you move the set of sockets an alarm will start beeping. Recently I bought a pressure washer. When I got home I realized the hose was missing. When I got to home depot to return it I realized that it wasn't even the right pressure washer in the box. Clearly someone had bought a new one and then put their old on in the box and returned it as new. Home Depot took care of me no questions and it made me feel like they must see kind of thing a lot.
    • ethbr0 5y ago
      Returns are a huge source of fraud. And it's difficult to solve, for the same reasons listed in this article: any solution (e.g. checking items fully) results in a worse customer experience (longer lines and delays). So, you try and pick a sweet spot along the curve, where you prevent the worst excesses but are still able to keep your (non-thieving) customers happy.
  • matheweis 5y ago
    I went to a Home Depot in Seattle a couple of days ago looking for an electric chainsaw (not a Milwaukee). It’s a bit of a drive and I wanted a particular model, so I checked the site for stock before going .. they had eight so off I went. When I showed up the chainsaw was nowhere to be found, and after looking high and low and triple checking their inventories, the rep said he figured they must have walked. He mentioned a similar figure saying that over $800k of merchandise had disappeared from that aisle (yard equipment) in the last year. I think it’s real. After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price. I ended up going to a third store before finding one that actually had the tool in stock. That one had installed a makeshift rig of steel bars in front of their stock, and a rep had to physically follow me to the register and watch me pay for it. There are videos in the Seattle reddits of brazen thieves going into stores and walking off with whatever they like. It’s bad enough for the big box stores, imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment!
    • mschuster91 5y ago
      > It’s bad enough for the big box stores, imagine being a small business trying to survive that environment! I'd guess that small businesses aren't as targeted by organized thieves as "big box" stores are: 1) They're smaller in size which means the likelihood of getting spotted by a staff member during a theft is higher 2) The amount (and diversity) of available goods to steal is lower 3) "Big box" stores don't have people carrying guns, their staff has a "don't intervene, we're insured anyway" policy drilled into them, and this is known. A small shopkeeper however? A thief can't reasonably know if the shop owner has a firearm under their desk or will get confrontational if stopped. > After the experience repeated itself at a second store, I looked on OfferUp and found the exact chainsaw “new and unopened” at about half the retail price. The really interesting thing is: why does the police not "follow the money" and take out those advertising likely-stolen tools for sale in the open?
      • drak0n1c 5y ago
        Regarding your last question, the city has for a while now decided not to prosecute shoplifting cases. Here is an article from 2018 about the phenomenon. It has gotten worse since then and the open street bazaars of stolen goods have grown much larger. I’ve decided to move to greener pastures a few months ago, but during a company event when I traveled back the CVS next to the hotel was brazenly shoplifted from the two times I stepped inside to buy essentials. https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/tonight-at-5-pm-on-kiro-7-overwhelmed-with-shoplifters-underwhelmed-by-city-s-response/875696437/ https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/tonight-at-5-pm-on-kiro-7-o...
  • TheHypnotist 5y ago
    It's a MAJOR issue. Most hardware stores now lock them, have cameras, and every time you walk by it makes some obnoxious noise.
    • spiderice 5y ago
      I hate that noise. Especially since they place them on aisles with expensive items, which are the same aisles I end up spending the most time comparing the different tools. Make me feel like I can't move for fear of being beeped at. Makes sense that they do it if shop lifting is as big of a problem as this article suggests.
      • mindslight 5y ago
        I usually flip off those beeping cameras. The store has created an aggressive environment and I'd rather actively recognize that, instead of than trying to pretend otherwise. I understand that theft is a problem, but they shouldn't be taking it out on honest customers. I bet I'm being downvoted by the kind of people who wait in line to exit a store.
  • somenewaccount1 5y ago
    Assuming an average price of $330, that would be 2000 devices. Or ~6 items a day, every single day of the year. that's not from shop lifters, that's from the employees out the back door.
  • oliwarner 5y ago
    I wonder why they don't just warehouse the stock, leave demo models on the floor and only get out the real one once you've paid for it. A couple of staff to power this has got to be cheaper than $700kpa in high value theft. But I also would have thought it'd be comically easy to surveil the power tool area and see who comes in lots but never seems to buy a power tool.
    • prawn 5y ago
      I wonder at what point the insurance cost starts to outweigh just paying for more staff to provide a higher-touch experience for certain categories. But then, I get the impression that supermarkets are saving on staff by using self-checkout, at the risk of increased casual theft. Would be nice to see more jobs rather than more insurance pay-outs though.
    • chipsa 5y ago
      The entire store is the warehouse. There’s nowhere for them to put it that’s easily accessible to the staff but not to customers, except maybe in a locked cage on the floor.
  • axaxs 5y ago
    Yeah, I just returned hundreds of dollars of power tools to Lowes because of them locking stuff up. I buy into an ecosystem based on how easy I can get items. Lowes has most of their power tools in cages. But, they don't hire people to actually man the area. Last time I needed an impact, I had to search to find someone. That person told me they can't open it, but would find someone. Five minutes later I left empty-handed, and returned the rest of the tools and batteries I'd bought recently that week. Point being: Their 'security' is driving away paying customers.
    • bombcar 5y ago
      The stores in "bad parts" of town have the cages, and sometimes service to match. The "good parts" of town - no cages in sight and you can grab what you need. It's sad.
      • axaxs 5y ago
        Very true. Oddly where I live now, the good and bad parts of town are very interspersed. You can have million dollar subdivisions a mile from a trailer park. The added bonus is that all stores treat everyone as a criminal, apparently :).
  • munificent 5y ago
    I look at this as yet another consequence of increasing economic inequality. When you have more and more people keenly aware of the unfair distance between their economic station and that of others, they're going to realize the system isn't working. And once that realization kicks in, there is little moral incentive to follow the rules. If you can get away with stealing from a giant corporation, why not? They are arguably stealing even more from you in terms of manipulating the larger economic systems of the country.
    • cafard 5y ago
      You never knew any middle class or upper middle class kids who shoplifted?
      • munificent 5y ago
        I definitely did, but I'm fairly certain that is not driving large-scale theft of tools from Home Depot.
    • readflaggedcomm 5y ago
      This reduces poverty to greed, which is insulting to those in need, rather than helpful or hopeful that there are solutions other than blind levelling.
• celeritascelery 5y ago
  > “organized retail crime” cost retailers $719,548 per $1 billion dollars in revenue. So less then 1%. With all the extra inconvenience they put on paying customers to combat this, I thought this was a much bigger issue.
  • throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    A huge fraction of that 1% is probably concentrated in a few locales that have some nonstandard law enforcement policies enable repetitive shop lifting to be a viable source of income for the low level people in the scheme that actually take the stuff so while it may be a small percentage overall it likely makes a large impact on the viability of the many stores in those areas. Their power tools are probably an outsize contributor to their overall profit margin so if there's something they really don't want being stolen it's those.
    • blacktriangle 5y ago
      So California
  • chadash 5y ago
    Home depot has an 11% profit margin. It's not a Google (30% profit margin) or an Apple (26.7%) that prints money. So it cuts into 9% of profits, which is pretty significant.
    • Kye 5y ago
      ~$3 million out of ~$4 billion profit just in the first quarter of 2021 is still not worth this.
      • MattGaiser 5y ago
        It is per 1 billion in revenue or 95 million per year.
        • 5y ago
• deleted 5y ago
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• dugmartin 5y ago
  When I read the headline I thought it meant stolen post-purchase. When I lived in Chicago in the '90s I heard stories (never validated) that contractors would show up at the Maxwell Street Market on the weekend to re-purchase the tools that were stolen from their jobsites during the week. I can validate there were a lot of really, really used power tools for sale there.
  • dnautics 5y ago
    It would be huge if they gave the customers the ability to use the same tech.
    • newsclues 5y ago
      Almost certainly it will, likely starting with the high end contractor line of tools.
  • wirthjason 5y ago
    Did they get them with mustard and onions? As a fellow Chicagoan I went to know.
  • h2odragon 5y ago
    It wasn't quite that bad; but yeah there were some places in the Chicago area where you could go and be likely to find anything you'd come up missing. It was cool to see what was "OK" for those markets and what they wouldn't buy and sell; police mobile radios should've been a lot more valuable than that.
  • z3ugma 5y ago
    Even in the mid 2010s I saw some questionable power tools at Maxwell Street Market that "fell off a truck". I have a specific memory of a hammer drill that had splatters of very-fresh cement on it.
• dec0dedab0de 5y ago
  Next thing you know they'll turn themselves off if you don't renew your support contract, or try to use unsupported screws.
  • junon 5y ago
    I get where you're coming from but that's a bit extreme. It's pretty clear Home Depot doesn't like doing this.
    • sneak 5y ago
      They already don't mechanically fit any batteries but the OEM's. The lock-in is real.
      • ntkachov 5y ago
        There are battery adapters from amazon and 3rd party batteries available readily. Your argument doesn't hold water. And oem batteries have systems in place to prevent over-use, over-heating and will shut off to prevent battery damage. So its less like DRM for batteries and more like each tool is designed along side its battery for performance.
        • snypher 5y ago
          Good luck using a non-One-Key battery in a Milwaukee tool.
          • Tempest1981 5y ago
            Details: https://www.protoolreviews.com/milwaukee-one-key-technology/ https://www.protoolreviews.com/milwaukee-one-key-technology/ Supports location tracking and geofencing
  • gabereiser 5y ago
    lol, I came here to say the same thing. John Deere style. Or K-Cup authorization. It's only a matter of time.
• TeMPOraL 5y ago
  It's an obvious idea so there must be a reason it's not implemented - I'm curious what that reason is though, so here it goes: Why don't they just take the batteries and/or motors out of the products on the shelves? Instead of adding complex computer shenanigans, why not design the product so that the most expensive part (e.g. a battery in portable tools, a motor or gearbox in mains-powered ones) is removable, shipped to store separately, and installed (or just given out) by the check-out clerk separately? Surely this must be simpler overall than adding digital complexity to where it doesn't belong[0]. The only reason I can think of is logistics - a wireless kill switch doesn't take extra space in the store, and doesn't create extra burden for inventory tracking. On the other hand, any wireless kill switch that doesn't involve turning the device into an always-connected surveillance system, with a built-in SIM card and crypto chip and all, will eventually be defeated by some trivial bit of DIY electronics (and the plans for that will spread among thieves quickly[1]). -- [0] - Not in this century, anyway. Maybe 100 years from now we'll be able to routinely make cheap computer add-ons that don't suck. [1] - Like the plans for breaking into cars in era before advanced electronic countermeasures. Almost two decades ago, I once saw a bundle of such files on someone's computer, collected by the owner out of general curiosity - IIRC, it was a bunch of PDFs with diagrams showing, per make and model of a car, into what shape you need to bend a piece of metal, and where to slide it, to defeat the central lock.
  • tyingq 5y ago
    They have to sell replacement batteries, so the power tool would still have a high value. But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself.
    • TeMPOraL 5y ago
      I think most stores with construction materials will allow the "pencil and paper" purchase flow, because it's needed for purchasing big/heavy stuff or buying in bulk. You give the note to the clerk, pay for the stuff, and arrange delivery.
    • Loughla 5y ago
      >But, I have seen places where you just take a piece of paper to the checkout rather than the tool itself. How is this not the solution, and more technology is? The local hardware store has cardboard slips you take to customer service for high-end/expensive tools, they then ring you up and you walk out with your newly purchased tool. They've done that since the 90's. It's not that hard to figure out. Why does every problem need a *TECHNOLOGY* solution? I'm genuinely confused by all of this.
• wirthjason 5y ago
  > "We certainly don't want to affect the 99.5% of our customers who are just there to pick up their hammers and nails," Glenn said. "We don't want to look like an armed encampment." This is the best quote from the article. It feels so sensible and opposite to how many media companies treat their customers. People have to jump through so many hoops and hassle to avoid DRM that’s it’s easier to just get a rip without all the rights garbage.
  • Tempest1981 5y ago
    Although you still need to track down an employee to buy something (who moves it to a different locked area at checkout). And then wait again at checkout to have a 2nd employee go fetch it. Similarly, at Walmart, even the $15 hair dryers are locked in glass cases, which the warden must unlock with a large ring of keys.
• thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
  It sounds like the beginning of "power tools as a service" which would be terrible. However, I could see a "power tools subscription model" as an interesting idea for contractors and other serious power tool users: A contractor pays a monthly fee and gets a steady supply of drill bits and replacement power tools.
  • throwawaygh 5y ago
    You can definitely rent tools, including from HD, but it's much more common for pros to use financing from the manufacturer.
  • ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    For non professionals you sometimes get community tool libraries.
  • adolph 5y ago
    I think I would like this service. I already use tool rental at HD for stuff I don't want to own.
    • Tempest1981 5y ago
      Would be great to have a neighborhood "lending library" for tools.
  • andylynch 5y ago
    Sounds like the local hire shops?
• throwawaygh 5y ago
  I'm skeptical of the effectiveness. The article states that the reason for this intervention is a set of organized shoplifting rings that operate as shadow businesses. I have a hard time believing that an organized operation won't eventually figure out how to enable stolen gear. Maybe via technological means by figuring out how the bluetooth "enable" protocol works or waiting for a vuln in the tool's bt stack, but much more likely by just bribing a cashier or manager. Keeping valuable merchandise behind lock and key -- or behind the counter -- seems like a more effective solution.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • Workaccount2 5y ago
    Honestly if they do enough volume to spin custom silicon, which gets cheaper and more accessible every year, it would become impractical to bypass the security. You essentially would get an electric motor and would need to rig up your own controller. And likely also figure out how to get the DRM battery to work with it.
    • shawnz 5y ago
      It's a power tool, why does it need any silicon at all? Obviously the primary current path of battery -> trigger -> motor isn't going to be able to be routed through any integrated circuits. So I have a hard time imagining that this won't be trivially bypassable.
      • bradstewart 5y ago
        Pretty much all motor controllers these days are silicon based.
      • lamontcg 5y ago
        They can always steal the equipment that unlocks it all. There have to be thousands of those pieces of equipment at every Home Depot out there. One of them disappears but isn't reported as stolen and now you've got your master key to unlock anything you want.
• major505 5y ago
  fuck that. Then you try to sell it and the godman thing stop stop working. I don't want DRM in my power drill.
  • rs999gti 5y ago
    You have remote kill and upgrade in your mobile phone, did you get rid of your phone?
    • api 5y ago
      You can disable it, and anyway a phone is a different sort of product. It's a computer product with a local interface (making this stuff easy to administrate) and is usually a lot more costly. I think what the parent is expressing is that they don't want this kind of functionality in everything, requiring constant management of all the DRM in all kinds of everyday items. Too much of a hassle for little benefit.
  • andylynch 5y ago
    My plumber would love this stuff. He's always complaining about tools going walking and anything that helps stop that is a win.
    • major505 5y ago
      Better way to keep tools for a long time is not to borrow your tools.
  • est31 5y ago
    Or lose access to it because google canceled your account for some reason.
• gadders 5y ago
  From the headline, I thought this would be for tools that get stolen from trades people's vans. That would be useful. It seems to be a very common occurrence, and you often see the locks on vans upgraded.
  • kotaKat 5y ago
    Dewalt (and a few others) already have Bluetooth-enabled batteries that can do this. You can take some of their "Tool Connect" batteries and disable them over Bluetooth, or put them into a time-limited "lending mode" that kills the pack after X amount of time. https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/connected-products/20v-max-tool-connect-5ah-battery/dcb205bt https://www.dewalt.com/products/power-tools/connected-produc...
  • andylynch 5y ago
    I noticed Milwaukee mentioned in this thread as one of the vendors involved - yes, they can do this too (https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com/Connected-Tools https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com/Connected-Tools) - this sounds like an extension of the same idea.
    • gadders 5y ago
      Thanks (& to kotaKat). That sounds like good news.
  • leephillips 5y ago
    When I lived in Washington, DC, and was fixing up a house there were contractors who simply would not take jobs there. They knew it meant getting their tools stolen from their vans. They would travel long distances for jobs within VA or MD, but refuse to drive a few miles into DC.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• hirundo 5y ago
  I'd be interested in a feature like this that works for the owner after the sale. I assume that would mean that I have to have an app on my phone running to use the tool, and that's not great, but I could live with it. I have friends whose homes and trucks have been broken into just to take their tools. These were contractors and it was a major setback for them. Theft deterrence is worth a fair amount of inconvenience to many buyers.
  • andylynch 5y ago
    Check this out - https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com https://onekey.milwaukeetool.com I expect other manufacturers are working on similar things.
    • 1-6 5y ago
      You'll start to see some people deliberately powering on their tools to make it look like they're working.
      • ip26 5y ago
        Perhaps it's a dogwhistle, but it reads much more like inventory management than work tracking. The equivalent of taping AirTags to each tool & adding an odometer.
  • EvanAnderson 5y ago
    I assume that would mean that I have to have an app on my phone running to use the tool... Which won't be updated when your phone OS changes, necessitating purchasing new tools. Sounds like a win!
• rbanffy 5y ago
  Now just imagine a foreign power being able to brick all power tools and blame it on a rogue hacker group. But at least the stores didn't get tools stolen, didn't need to pay more for insurance, and could pocket the profits.
  • chelmzy 5y ago
    They are using bluetooth. Your scenario is extremely unlikely and would only work if some wormable bluetooth vuln was widespread.
    • rbanffy 5y ago
      Something like an app almost everyone uses?
• driverdan 5y ago
  As a consumer I have no interest in a power tool with BT (de)activation built in. I will not buy from them.
  • sircastor 5y ago
    Me neither, but what do you do if the all the quality brands don’t offer anything else? Do you prefer the poorly performing drill, or the one that works really well and has this thing you never use? I’ve bought enough tools from harbor freight to be struggling with the question.
  • lucb1e 5y ago
    The question is whether they tell you. It might be like this internet-lite (where you share a NAT connection with a dozen other customers) that is never mentioned by the ISP, before or after purchase, until you notice you can't host games, nextcloud, or anything else.
    • totony 5y ago
      You can just test if it works when picking it up
      • lucb1e 5y ago
        Sure, and then you drill stuff for a year, something rattles loose, and then the device bricks because of the DRM which is designed to be hard to bypass (i.e. nigh-impossible to repair by yourself). At least that's what I think their point was and I can see the reasoning.
• mdip 5y ago
  I couldn't help while reading this thinking 'Security is in charge of Customer Experience'. Obviously theft is a serious problem for the likes of retail -- and shoplifting is something that isn't 100% preventable. You can reduce it, but you can't stop it. And every step you take to reduce it risks alienating customers. For example, we've all encountered those silly alarm systems at the doors. As I've never been a shoplifter, I've never had those go off on me except in error. When I worked at CompUSA for 5 years, we had a greeter at the door who told me "they've never once, in 15 years, caught a shoplifter". They went off several times a day, so the only people being stopped at the door were people who had purchased their goods being treated like a shoplifter. I'm assuming this system will work a lot better than the old, but if I got my tool home and it simply didn't work, I'd be extremely frustrated -- especially if I could have avoided both drives to the retail store and had the product delivered tomorrow, instead. The alternative is to turn the whole thing upside down. Change the way shopping is done so that shoplifting doesn't work. I fill a cart, walk through the gate out the door and receive a total, passing my card/phone over a sensor to pay. Of course, this means it's on Home Depot to get it right and I'm sure there will be ways to defeat the system. If they fail to ring up an item because it's not detected in the cart, I'm not sure if they have legal recourse at that point, but it also serves to motivate them to make the system a lot more reliable than the current ones are. And you stop treating your customers like shoplifters :)
  • dtjb 5y ago
    If Home Depot could somehow extend this anti-theft protection to the original purchaser, that would be a huge positive to customer experience. Tool theft at job sites is a massive problem, especially because most workers are responsible for providing their own tools.
    • ianhawes 5y ago
      This. I was excited seeing the headline, but disappointed it only applied to purchasing from Home Depot.
    • giantg2 5y ago
      The easiest way would be to implement the smart gun tech for tools. Keep the paired bracelet at the counter, then the user can wear it when using it. If the bracelet isn't in range, then the tool won't work. I'm guessing people wouldn't be very happy with this user experience though. Cost for biometric implementation would likely be cost prohibitive.
• taf2 5y ago
  Anyone else expect in 10 years we have subscription tools… they only work and they get software updates but only if you pay…. The model is simple, no upfront cost to get access to any tool. Just pay a monthly subscription fee…
  • Workaccount2 5y ago
    I'm eagerly awaiting social pushback on the spreading cancer of SaaS everything.
    • EvanAnderson 5y ago
      It won't happen. We're indoctrinating the young early with Spotify, Netflix, etc. It'll just be normal to pay the electricity bill, the music/movies bill, the Internet bill, the tool bill, etc.
  • aembleton 5y ago
    I wouldn't mind that if I could have access to a large array of tools that I just return to my local hardware store when I'm done with them. Most of the time, I'm not using them and I only live 15 minutes walk from my nearest Screwfix and Toolstation. If I could pay say £5/month and get access to any tool even for just a few days a month that would probably be worth it for me.
    • taf2 5y ago
      Yeah I agree
• d--b 5y ago
  Problem is that BT components are somewhat more fragile than a drill motor. If the BT component fails, is the tool not working anymore? They say this is to fight organized crime. I am pretty sure organized criminal know how to bypass a BT security feature...
• Workaccount2 5y ago
  I imagine in the near future some security company leveraging amazon's "No checkout" grocery store AI camera system to watch for theft. You won't be arrested but you'll get blacklisted on a shared database across dozens of retailers. The future is going to be weird.
• weare138 5y ago
  So what happens if this bluetooth device fails and bricks your drill after you bought it? These things are used in construction and take a constant beating. They last for as long as they do because they're simply and reliably designed. Why not just put a bluetooth tracker in the box that's disabled when purchased?
  • swalls 5y ago
    I'd say they probably considered that a feature.
• f6v 5y ago
  I was hoping we’re that far in the future that the tools would scan your DNA by drawing blood every time you pick them up. Or at least have a fingerprint sensor.
• CivBase 5y ago
  This is the most unnecessarily expensive and convoluted solution. Every product would have to be updated to support this system and it only works with electrical devices. Here's a better idea. If a product is liable to be stolen, just keep it locked up and require the clerk to get it for you at checkout. It's probably less work for the clerk to do that than fiddle with this new system and it would require much less error-prone technology or cooperation from manufacturers. Most stores figured this out decades ago.
  • waynesonfire 5y ago
    i liked what office (depot|max) did... one demo item on display to explorer. if you're ready to purchase there is a slip you take to the counter and the cashier pulls the item for you. fry's electronic / cosco has people at the door searching every customer and checking their documentation. i believe you can tell them to fuk off. "can i see your receipt?" "no" lol.
• ChuckMcM 5y ago
  Wow, this quote: Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales, a 2020 survey from the National Retail Federation found — a nearly 60% increase from 2015. The cost of all this shoplifting is 0.7% up from 0.45%. Meanwhile, over the same period, the cost of using your credit card at home depot went up over 1% from 1.3% to 2.4%. Who is the bigger threat to your business here, really?
  • Y-bar 5y ago
    > $719,548 per $1 billion in sales [...] The cost of all this shoplifting is 0.7% up from 0.45%. Wouldn't that be 0.072%?
    • somenewaccount1 5y ago
      yup. they are installing trackers and justifying it with nearly inconsequential losses. patriot act all over again.
  • oehpr 5y ago
    wait... are we sure we're reading these numbers right? that $1 billion. is that the income earned from the sale? Or is that the profit the retailer keeps all told? As an example, how many chainsaws does Home Depot have to sell before it pays for the theft of one chainsaw? I would assume much more than one. I think the NRF are just listing the sum MSRP's of legitimately sold items vs stolen items. You can't just divide that to get the "portion of harm"
    • ChuckMcM 5y ago
      I agree that there are a number of sources of possible error, from the retailer to the reporter that is summarizing from a much larger report. That said, the computation of 'shrinkage' has been defined as MSRP of products that are stolen and/or damaged, divided by the gross sales of all products. The number captures "lost" revenue. My nephew, who is working at a large nationwide retailer and has access to all of this data for their stores, has told me in the past (and I presume it is still true), that the largest component of "loss" experienced on the retail side is through employee theft, either directly, or by assisting a partner to evade the payment systems. The smallest portion of this loss is from people who come into the store and take merchandise without paying for it. The "interesting" thing about that story, is not that it makes it harder to sneak out a tool, but that it requires a register transaction for that tool to work. Combined with inventory management of that tool, internal theft rings are uncovered because the employee facilitating the theft has to use their register to do so. But the stores won't tell you that of course. Just like back in the day getting out of a Fry's Electronics was like being released from a SuperMAX prison lockup with all the gates and checks and re-checks. They too were much more worried about employee theft than individuals stealing stuff.
• cmcmcmcm 5y ago
  I don't mind if the tools would be locked up, I mind that I have to spend 10 minutes trying to find someone to tell them I want it and then he has to find someone who has the key that I have to wait another 10 minutes for the person to come and unlock it and give it to me. I would be more than happy if they have a system where I can do something to indicate that I want this item and then later when I check out it is waiting for me by the register or some pickup counter.
• sandworm101 5y ago
  I stole from Home Depo and this is my story: Dark and stormy night in Pacific Northwest. I've finished a long day at work and am heading to meet family at the cabin in the woods. I get a text: "There is a mouse. Buy traps before you come." So I pull off the highway and hit a suburban Home Depo. I grab a wide selection of anti-mouse devices and potions. I try to buy my items but, in a deserted store, none of the cashiers are manned. The "manager" points me to the self-checkout. Ugh. My packing-wrapped packs of mouse traps wont scan. Manager "helps" but then turns it over to me to type in the numbers. With the manager watching I pay, bag my stuff, and leave. In the parking lot I spread my assortment of mouse-killing paraphernalia on the passenger seat and sent a photo to the family at the cabin. Then I notice my mistake. I paid for two 2-packs of rat traps when in fact I had taken two 4-packs. Do I go back and correct this crime? Do I talk to that useless "manager" and spend an hour struggling to undo my mistake via the self-checkout? Do I risk missing the last ferry? I got into my car and drove on into the night. I am a shoplifter.
  • drunner 5y ago
    Reminds me of buying beets at the grocery store that were $.99 "each", but were conveniently bundled in a group of 3. I got home and was thinking "that was a lot of beets for $.99." but I still have no idea if I did the self checkout right or wrong when I entered "1" as the quantity.
    • dharmab 5y ago
      My dad ate lots of guava fruit in his childhood in his native country. He buys a few whenever the local grocers have them in stock. About half the time, the cashier keys them in as limes (about 1/3rd the price) and he doesn't realize until he's home and reads the receipt.
      • nkozyra 5y ago
        I can't imagine confusing them with limes given their size. I had a guava tree for a while and it's ... hard to eat that much guava.
• kileywm 5y ago
  Some stores, like Costco, have an interesting, alternative approach. Many items in their electronics department are prepay. You can try out the floor model (tethered to the display platform), and if you wish to purchase it you pull a cardboard item card. That card is scanned during the checkout process, and once payment is received, the staff bring the physical item from secure storage to the post-paid customer. With the item card approach, you never have the product in your hands until it has been paid for. Between that practice and their receipt checking at the exit, I do wonder what their theft numbers look like.
  • SamuelAdams 5y ago
    Had the same experience buying a CPU from Microcenter. You told a store associate what processor you wanted, he wrote it on a cardboard slip, then you get the product after checkout is paid for. Overall I was pretty happy with the process. Hardest part was hunting down a sales associate.
    • gre 5y ago
      Fry's had a cage behind the registers with all their small expensive parts like CPUs and RAM.
    • benglish11 5y ago
      At Costco you don't even have to tell a store associate. They have a stack of cardboard posters with the item on it and you take that to the register
  • kergonath 5y ago
    Around here in <some European country>, they do this quite often with stuff that tends to get stolen (video games and such) and stuff that they must not sell to children (like razor blades). You just get a bit of cardboard from the aisle, and either the cashier gives you the item when you pay, or you retrieve it from a counter, showing the receipt. It’s actually quite mind-boggling that their conclusion from their risk analysis is to get this high-tech solution with potentially much worse user experience, than the foolproof low-tech one that just involves them paying one more bloke.
• Angostura 5y ago
  Next stop: * You need to use the same technology to activiate premium features via a subscription * You cannot resell them etc etc
• ReptileMan 5y ago
  Most tools are motor and batteries and small control board. They don't have much to drm. So probably it will be trivial to solder something that is able to control the stolen merch good enough.
• sombremesa 5y ago
  Good to see Glowforge’s pioneering work is starting to have an industry-wide effect. /s
• rayiner 5y ago
  > He made a point to distinguish between "professional shoplifters" and disorganized solo thieves. The pros, he said, frequently are connected to a larger network that can, in some cases, function as a sophisticated "shadow business." This is the aspect of “defund the police” that people don’t seem to understand. Police can’t stop every, or even most, solo criminals. But that’s not the only purpose of police. Where the police monopoly on violence is weak, organized crime springs up and turns shoplifting, robbery, etc., into a business.
  • Kaze404 5y ago
    Isn't the point that by defunding the police that they'd be relegated to spending the resources they have on the functions they're actually trained to do, like the one you mentioned?
    • 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
      Pretty much. Even outright police abolition doesn't propose simply shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, for that matter, just that we should figure out how to address crime with institutions whose central paradigm isn't threatening and committing violence. That's a tall order, and I gather there's plenty to criticize in the movement, but most arguments against it come across more like arguments against Thanos snapping all police officers out of existence.
      • tptacek 5y ago
        This is pretty hand-wavey, isn't it? If outright abolition doesn't propose shrugging our shoulders and ignoring crime, what does it propose? That we address it from root causes by restructuring the economy to correct the injustices that lead to crime?
        • 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
          I'm not deeply familiar with the arguments, but it does seem to be pretty hand-wavey at this point, apart from the criticisms of the existing paradigm. But it's generally worth keeping in mind that there was a time when the case for the status quo was similarly hand-wavey. There was a time before modern policing, and it's not inherently silly to think that there could be a time after it.
• oauea 5y ago
  Sounds like they're creating a lot of waste.
• bartread 5y ago
  Riiiiiiiiiight. So, we're talking about organised criminals here? Primarily, anyway? They steal power tools because they figure they can make a lot of money out of them, and there's clearly a substantial market for stolen power tools if that's the case. It matters not one whit if the goofballs who steal the tools on their behalf are able to make them work or not. Do you honestly think they're not going to be able to figure this stuff out and easily inactivate the Bluetooth lockout? All you're going to end up doing is passing the cost of this theatre on to legitimate consumers which, perversely, will increase the appeal of buying stolen tools at a discount. Bravo. Why not use the tagging mechanism you probably already have for high value items and which won't require any additional costs/new technology? This has nothing to do with customer experience, or even with reducing revenue lost to shoplifting, and everything to do with some tech/IT guy's wet dream about control and power. (Cynically, I wonder if this also provides a route to killing the secondary market for power tools, forcing people to buy new. It's a long play but it's exactly the kind of thing I can imagine them doing, especially with people like Sonos having tried to brick speakers to prevent them being resold.)
• 1-6 5y ago
  I think power tool theft goes beyond retail. If they could use the same Bluetooth tech so it's associated to the owner, it would prevent a lot of jobsite theft and theft from contractor vehicles.
• CTOSian 5y ago
  ok, so someone can't simply crack them open, take off the "smart controller" and install one of those adjustable speed control from china ? I doubt this is something (eg like firmware) embedded on the motor.
• paulpauper 5y ago
  This is the worst way to make money. Yeah, I'll risk many years in jail to steal $500 of crap that I can only pawn off for $100.
• fmajid 5y ago
  And there I thought it was Home Depot selling tools that are protected from being stolen at the worksite, a much bigger problem that theft from stores themselves.
• jbluepolarbear 5y ago
  How is this gonna stop theft? I have a lot of power tools from Home Depot (ryobi) and I take them apart all the time to fix them. Power tools are relatively simple in design. A Bluetooth anti theft system last as long as it takes to open the tools and remove the anti theft and re-solder the parts back. My dad was a long time construction worker and there’ve been many anti theft devices in power tool. None of them work and are circumvented in minutes if you know why you’re doing. This is the dumbest stunt I’ve seen a company take; this isn’t anti theft, it’s anti consumer.
  • paulpauper 5y ago
    How is it anti-consumer? If you paid for the tool and it works, what difference does it make? It won't stop all theft but is just an extra deterrent that does not involve having to lockup the tool.s
    • jbluepolarbear 5y ago
      Have you used a lot of power tools? Because power tools get beat up and every anti theft mechanism I’ve experienced becomes the weak point of tools. Back in the late 90s Milwaukee started putting key locks in the saws. My dad constantly have his saws “repaired” cause the lock would slide closed and be unable to function, he started taking them apart and removing the mechanism. That’s anti consumer. If it will be the reason your tool stops working, it’s anti consumer. If the lock ever turns on when you don’t want it to, it’s anti consumer. Also, Home Depot calls out on their repair site that they do not repair Bluetooth enabled devices, that’s anti consumer.
    • starky 5y ago
      If the lock is effective, then you are definitely going to have cases where a paying customer receives a tool that is locked or re-locked itself. The organized groups on the other hand now just have a slight inconvenience (at worst, until they reverse engineer the electronic locking) where they have to open and bypass the lock before they re-sell the tool. Power tools aren't complex enough to be able to make them impossible to bypass without the theft still being profitable.
  • 5y ago
• somenewaccount1 5y ago
  > Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales, a 2020 survey from the National Retail Federation found — a nearly 60% increase from 2015. Interesting way of saying < .1% Bullshit that the tool manufacturers are going to install bluetooth tech in every device for purely on/off purchases. They are going to track the shit out of that tool, mark my words. Also, it will fail on occasion, likely more than .1% of the time. If they don't want to effect 99.9% of the legit purchasers, they wouldn't be putting this power consuming device tracker in 100% of devices.
• ttul 5y ago
  The organized crime groups could not make it happen at scale without a few dirty managers. Don’t let Home Depot fool you here: most of their shrinkage is from the inside.
• hedora 5y ago
  Well, that’s dystopian! If they’re going to all that effort, allow the end user to lock and unlock the friggin tools too! I’d happily pay more if I could bluetooth tether my power tools to a few cell phones. Tool theft is a huge problem for contractors and home owners, and this would put a huge damper on it. I guess reducing theft after it leaves the store would interfere with planned obsolescence.
• erdos4d 5y ago
  How is this realistic to implement though? Unless it is done in the motor itself, I have to believe someone will have a hack for it very soon.
• Merad 5y ago
  Alternative headline: Home Depot discovers a way to introduce power tools that can fail due to software bugs.
• underseacables 5y ago
  Going to Home Depot in some places is to be treated like a thief. When you use the self check out they have a camera looking right at you and they show you looking at you, and they have the cameras in the departments that beep, and it’s just that much on the side of annoying.
• newdude116 5y ago
  Yeah. What a Bullshit. What is the next thing? They change policy and charge USD 1 per hole if you drill more then three per day? Thanks I pass. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26466515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26466515 “The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it.”
• flowersjeff 5y ago
  I honestly see this as the 'things to come' - and sort of impressed that these technologies/ideas haven't been used sooner. With that said, I too think that it would be a HUGE gain for all if ownership / control could be transferred. However, most people cannot properly control stuff they dearly care for, and could see this becoming a HUGE headache for the stores to manage after the sale. Perhaps an after purchase website that you register your info and products ( maybe connecting said devices to your phone(s) or other BLE devices .) The big issue is, you're on the job - forgot your phone/etc...and can't drill a hole. Although, most people would be more likely to forget their shoes than their phone.
• shuntress 5y ago
  Of note in the article: "There are very organized groups where the leaders at the top are recruiting people that are drug-dependent, homeless, or down on their luck and offering them incentives and providing shopping lists to go out and bring back certain products" In the broader context, attempting to thwart shoplifting directly is essentially treating the symptom rather than the disease. This is not caused by homeowners looking to save a buck on tools for yard work. It's organized crime taking advantage of vulnerable people. Social programs to help remove this source of cheap/willing labor combined with thorough investigation-based law enforcement is a better solution than theft resistant tools.
• fakename 5y ago
  “Organized retail crime costs retailers an average of $719,548 per $1 billion in sales” Seems like a lot of work for 0.07%
  • crazygringo 5y ago
    That's because you're calculating the percentage wrong. The relevant percentage isn't against sales but against profits. Home Depot has a profit margin of around 10%, so it would be $719,548 against $100M in profit, or 0.7%. If you can increase profits by nearly a full percentage point that's huge. That's how companies grow, after all -- a percent here, a percent there, and all these little things are what make the stock price grow. Sure it's a "lot of work". That's what companies do. If it were easy we'd all be billionaires.
  • CountDrewku 5y ago
    So you're claiming they just like upsetting customers and spending money to stop theft for the hell of it? I suppose we should trust some rando on hackernews over the people running the business. Yeah.... hmmmmm
• ineedasername 5y ago
  If the tools can be activate by Bluetooth, seems like they might be deactivated that way as well (especially if it was returned). Given typical IoT security, it would be interesting to see how that ends up working out for them.
• toss1 5y ago
  >>...the company's fight against organized retail crime. He made a point to distinguish between "professional shoplifters" and disorganized solo thieves. The pros, he said, frequently are connected to a larger network that can, in some cases, function as a sophisticated "shadow business." OK, so they're fighting pros with bluetooth-enabling the tools at checkout. What could go wrong? The amateurs will certainly be foiled, while the pros will pay crackers to build a work-around. Meanwhile, the enabling device will become another point of failure in the product and will cause more warranty claims and dissatisfaction - and there's nothing quite as annoying as being in the middle of a job and having a tool breakdown, especially a newer one that is expected to work for years. Would also be likely that they'll have miscellaneous connection failures while trying to enable the tool at checkout, e.g., just from EM interference in random locations; that'll make for happy customers... Sure, it is a serious problem, but I'm not sure this is a good solution.
• dukecitypal 5y ago
  Next natural step would be to sell the tools for a lower cost than the competitor and start charging for hours of use.
• devwastaken 5y ago
  If this is organized as they say, it'll be broken in a week. Change the checkout process. Customers can bring a little box under the display, and a tool cashier brings out the actual tool. Or, when purchased at the front you get an electronic ID for each tool you then go back and redeem with an employee at the tool isle.
• wampwampwhat 5y ago
  Home Depot could solve this problem really easily by having more than two people working in a store at a given time.. It's a pretty simple solution. Every single person I know has stolen something small (like a box of screws) from home depot in the last few years because they got tired of trying to find someone to check out with and said fuck it and walked out. Theres other examples of that same forced to steal because theres no way to pay in this thread, and all over the internet. HD has incompetent top down leadership. Fire your C Suite.
  • epmaybe 5y ago
    If you're upset with the service a place provides, the rational response isn't to shoplift, it's to find a different place that offers the same service..
• poulsbohemian 5y ago
  I've got two complaints here as a legitimate and frequent consumer: 1) They already chain down all the tools and/or keep them boxed without store displays such that it is very difficult to evaluate tools you might wish to purchase. You can't even pick them up to get a feeling for the weight. Many of the more robust tools (table saws, drill presses, etc) they don't keep in stock either. 2) So many of the accidental thefts in the comments are due to self-scanning. Well - why were consumers forced to self-checkout in the first place? Because HD never has enough checkers, their checkout areas are poorly designed for the kinds of bulk items being purchased, and basically HD is being cheap and wants to lower their costs by putting the burden back on the consumer. Sure, I do my best to scan accurately and ethically, but I can completely see how this happens and it is difficult to blame the consumer when HD has deliberately funnel you into self-checkout.
  • crummybowley 5y ago
    I read your comment without reading the article, then I read the article. I am sad :/ While it would make sense for loss prevention at the store, it would make more sense if this feature was extended to the end user.
• spike021 5y ago
  Reminds me of video games/movies where guns/other weapons only work for the enemies or whatever because they have an NFC or something that validates them as being allowed to fire the weapon.
• cratermoon 5y ago
  Good. Now do it for guns.
• flerchin 5y ago
  Any technical details on this? It better be like a dye-pak on a shirt I'm buying, and not like a John Deere tractor.
• cududa 5y ago
  Given how easy it was to breach their POS system, something tells me the private key that activates them is going to get stolen real fast.
• GeorgeTirebiter 5y ago
  This is the same Home Depot that had its PoS terminals compromised ? https://www.sans.org/white-papers/36367/ https://www.sans.org/white-papers/36367/ These people? https://threatpost.com/home-depot-data-breach-order-confirmation/160728/ https://threatpost.com/home-depot-data-breach-order-confirma... OK. Maybe trying something to reduce shrinkage is good -- AFTER hardening the back end.
• ranrotx 5y ago
  Fuck Home Depot. First they killed off all the mom-and-pop hardware local stores. Now we shop there because that’s usually the only choice. Are we supposed to feel sorry for them? It’s bad enough that they’ve turned me into their employee with their self-checkout system. Someone at HD made the calculation that by not employing as many cashiers, the personnel savings will be profitable even in the face of shoplifting. But now, they are just putting another burden on their customers and vendors.
• javman 5y ago
  I started shopping pretty regularly at Home Depot after buying a house about eight years ago. I used to be surprised after paying when the alarm sounded as I walked out the door. I would stop and turn around, and usually a cashier would wave and say "you're okay!"... or just wave impatiently... or there would be no cashiers. It got to the point where I had a little bit of dread every time I walked out the door ("Is it going to go off this time?")... It is somewhat embarrassing to have other customers look at you like you must've just stolen something. After a few years of this, I noticed the cashiers don't even look at the door anymore when the alarm goes off. I've never seen a security person at Home Depot. I'm more likely to buy tools and parts online now. Home Depot has become the last resort unless I need something immediately, or need raw building supplies. Because I don't want to feel like a criminal moments after paying for what I'm carrying.
• kf6nux 5y ago
  > The trade publication Loss Prevention Media defines organized retail crime as "any organized criminal, conspiratorial attack on the retail establishment" Meanwhile, the real world defines organized crime as: criminal activities that are planned and controlled by powerful groups and carried out on a large scale.
• zs234465234165 5y ago
  They are preparing for Screwdriver as a service.
• PHGamer 5y ago
  yea i dont need remote internet connected power tool that needs to call home to work. fuck these guys.