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Tesla plans to open its charging network to other EVs later this year

229 points by Corrado 5y ago

rpmisms 5y ago
Big potential source of income here. The supercharger network stands head and shoulders above every other charging network in the US. Some key advantages include: reliability, convenience, ubiquity, and location. I've never been to a supercharger with more than one broken stall, they all "just work". I've also tried other options, but I've actually never found one that was operational at the time.
- Corrado 5y ago
  I agree completely. The convenience of the Tesla system is the most important thing in my book. Charging my Model Y is the same at home as it is at a SuperCharger; just plug it in. It's so easy my Mom and a teenager have done it with no training. I've used other non-Tesla chargers while on road trips (just to try them out) and the experience is much, much worse. There is usually an app do download, or you have to swipe your CC, or both. There is usually some sort of screen with instructions, but they are all different and sometimes the screen is not visible/broken. It's a real mess.
  - phkahler 5y ago
    >> I've used other non-Tesla chargers while on road trips (just to try them out) and the experience is much, much worse. Of course it is. They have to support cars from all manufacturers (except Tesla). They all have an app, but so does Tesla. The sum of all charger networks is larger than the Tesla network and growing faster too. I do think it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Tesla doesn't have an app for charging. The act of plugging in the car is enough to associate the car to a billable account, without requiring fidgeting with a phone to open an app to initiate charging/billing. Don't even need to authorize with NFC. This is a significant improvement over using NFC and apps.
      - p_j_w 5y ago
        Just plugging in the car won't work for Non-Teslas, though, so that advantage is straight out the window.
        epistasis 5y ago
        At least until there's further standardization to allow it. There's no reason current non-Tesla chargers couldn't support this, other than they haven't bothered to.
        floren 5y ago
        Apparently you can plug in a Ford Mach-e at an Electrify America charger and it "just works". You cannot yet do that with a VW ID.4 (even thought VW built the network) but since the capability is clearly there, I'd expect to see it come in later software updates for the car.
      - atty 5y ago
        How do I pay to charge someone’s car I’m borrowing for a day or two then without it going to their account? Seems too restrictive. Much better to have an NFC scanner that works with Apple/Google pay services. Taking 3 seconds on a tap to pay system is not a hardship that needs to be reduced.
        vel0city 5y ago
        Right? With recently updated petrol pumps its been pretty simple to negotiate payment. Tap my phone to the pump, choose fuel grade, start pumping. Since its electric, it would be tap phone, plug it in. Having it all tied to some account related with the car its now a much bigger hassle to change the payment method.
        ericd 5y ago
        That is kind of a corner case unless you’re renting out your car, and not one worth making the main use case worse for, imo. Your friend can always look up the bill and you can Venmo them or hand them cash. Have you used superchargers? I get the sense that a lot of commenters here haven’t. The current UX is nearly spot on perfect - plug in, walk off, app notifies you when it’s almost done charging. Only issue I’ve seen is needing to go back to your car to avoid idle fees, but it’s understandable.
    - darknavi 5y ago
      > The sum of all charger networks is larger than the Tesla network and growing faster too. Do you have any stats on this? I'm not doubting you, but I often browse this which can show (crowd-sourced) changes to the Supercharger network and it is growing pretty fast: https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes
      - tw04 5y ago
        https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/us-charging-network-rankings/ https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/us-ch...
        darknavi 5y ago
        I _think_ that table is measured in groups of chargers. If so, comparing the brands is a bit moot since most non-Tesla normally has at least 4 (and normally much more) charging bays where as many other DC fast charging places normally have less than 4 (often 2).
        tw04 5y ago
        No? I guess I'm not sure what you're looking at, it's all explicitly called out. First column is level 2 locations, second column is level 2 connections (aka: charging bays). Column 3 is DC locations, column 4 is DC connections per location. Column 5 they conveniently do the math of average connections per location.
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    I think people underestimate that simplicity. Sure, the Taycan can charge faster. In real life, the time you'll spend finding a working charger makes it far slower. Tesla makes it just work, and they do so stunningly well. They're compared to Apple for a reason.
- stoddur 5y ago
  As well as software execution. You can see queue times for superchargers, how many stalls are out of order etc, all on the map in each Tesla which is very convenient when on a roadtrip
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    I hope other OEMs are competent enough to integrate that functionality.
  - alexisread 5y ago
    Zapmap and carplay/android auto at least in the UK covers this. Currently, the best chargers in the UK (for convenience, and as much as my limited experience has been) are Instavolt: contactless payment, no app. Not quite as convenient, but familiar for most people. Parking meters are worse!
- FanaHOVA 5y ago
  The problem is that some of them are already pretty crowded on a consistent basis. For example, I drove from NYC to Wisconsin a few times, every time the Maumee, OH Supercharger is full. There's not really any alternatives to it without going really out of the way. I worry that opening the chargers to all EVs might make it even worse.
  - darknavi 5y ago
    I think it will cause more people to use the chargers. It will only be _worse_ if Tesla doesn't react and expand (hopefully with their new-found $$$ from other auto makers).
  - rpmisms 5y ago
    The solution is charging higher rates for non-Tesla charging, which opens the door for even more aggressive expansion of the network.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Everyone should pitch in to have one system. It will be the worst if 10 years from now every vehicle has a different ’usb’ port while your mileage count goes lower. Tesla moved first, and that deserves some reward because anyone could have started for decades prior to Tesla.
- melling 5y ago
  Have we developed the final charging standard? We’ll be using whatever we agree upon for decades.
  - Faaak 5y ago
    Yes, it's called CCS is EU/USA. For asia, it's still undecided between CCS and CHAdeMO
    - emteycz 5y ago
      Evidence that's the best for next decades? Sorry but the word of EU bureaucracy is not enough.
      - gambiting 5y ago
        What kind of evidence would you find sufficient? CCS supports 350kW charging speeds(as-is, it can support more with very minor changes to the cable/plug spec), higher than any car currently on the market. What exactly are your requirements to make a charging standard "best for the next decades"?
        tyho 5y ago
        The Audi e-tron GT charges at 270KW. Pretty close already. A standard petrol/gas pump pushes 22MW, or ~7MW equivalent when taking into account ICE efficiency.
        gambiting 5y ago
helen___keller 5y ago
Just this past weekend I parked my hybrid at a rest stop and glanced enviously at the unused strip of Tesla superchargers, wishing I could hook up to one.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  We traveled 1000+ miles this weekend on Superchargers with our Tesla and it’s just as delightful to use as you’d expect, and the uptime makes me confident enough to roll into a Supercharger with only ~30 miles of range left to ensure a sustained peak charge rate (low battery SOC = higher charge rate, as it tapers as SOC rises). The Supercharger network is also why we ordered a Model Y versus considering other EVs. There's definitely going to have to be some sort of minimum charge rate enforced so vehicles without fast charge capability don't choke the network out for fast charge vehicles. Turnover is crucial considering the cost of fast DC charge stations (~$200k/station), and no one (reasonably) wants to wait to plug in when they arrive to charge. Tesla charges a per minute idle fee once charging is complete to encourage vacating the stall, and I'd expect a similar per minute penalty for slow charging vehicles using the Superchargers. To Tesla's credit, they do install agnostic J1772 chargers at some Supercharger stations (the gas station near Ohare airport comes to mind [1] [2]). [1] https://www.plugshare.com/location/249899 https://www.plugshare.com/location/249899 (the Superchargers) [2] https://www.plugshare.com/location/326963 https://www.plugshare.com/location/326963 (the J1772 chargers)
trollied 5y ago
Great news. Though the EV charging ecosystem is still a huge mess. Each country has 5 or 6 different networks that all require different apps, charge wildly different prices etc. A huge mess. Hopefully things will settle as adoption increases.
- that_guy_iain 5y ago
  If you're in Europe, there are a few major EMSPs that provide you access to multiple networks. The two biggest players seem to be New Motion owned by Shell and PlugSurfing owned by Fortum. In most major countries these two have a massive percentage of the chargers and networks. In some they have 100%. The pricing is down to the CPOs and the same charger can cost different prices based on what deal they made with the EMSP. Source: I work for a EMSP.
  - dkyc 5y ago
    Thanks for the insight! Though the fact that understanding this requires me to learn two new acronyms might hint at the problem with customer adoption and perception.
    - that_guy_iain 5y ago
      I don't think we use those terms in public. We use charging network provider or something for EMSP and operator for CPO (Charging Point Operators). I'm also used to lots of very techincal dicussions on this subject where everyone understands them. Every now and then someone adds in a new term to mean one of the normal terms because of some new thing. When you onboard to our company you have to learn so many acronyms.
- mattygh 5y ago
  Open charge point protocol (OCPP) is used by all EVs and EV chargers currently for charger management, and they are working on an enhancement that will allow your car to directly exchange payment info with the charger via the charging hardware - no more app needed. It’ll take a few years to take hold but I’m very hopeful this works out, it will make the whole thing so much easier.
brianwawok 5y ago
Important they build new stations to meet demand increases. Being able to actually charge is a key reason to go Tesla right now.
- judge2020 5y ago
  And, from reactions to this on Reddit, super chargers are already often crowded in the western US. EM has said before that, if they open the network to other EV manufacturers, they’ll want some cash so that they can expand the network to deal with that higher demand.
  - brianwawok 5y ago
    Yah Midwest has lots of capacity. Seems like CA doesn’t, but I don’t live there so cannot vouch.
    - shmoe 5y ago
      CA has superchargers that have 50+ stalls.. it's not that they don't have a lot of capacity -- it's that damn near everyone has a Tesla.
      - dogorman 5y ago
        >it's not that they don't have a lot of capacity How can you say that any number of anything is 'a lot' when you're specifically not considering demand? What does it even mean for there to be 'a lot of capacity' in a sense divorced from relative demand? 'A lot' only has meaning in relative terms.
        shmoe 5y ago
        Ok, they have so much demand for Tesla's they cant keep up with it but have massive superchargers in plenty of locations. Fair enough? :)
asah 5y ago
I'm assuming the goal is to slow the deployment of competing networks, while arranging some big benefit (besides branding): revenue, Tesla's charge faster, Tesla's get preference, etc.
fortran77 5y ago
How annoyed will the "S" owners be if they can't charge because all the Supercharger slots are filled up with LEAFs, etc?
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  They could have a charge per minute past completion to make sure people don’t leave their cars when not in use (only if people are waiting though).
  - drewg123 5y ago
    They already do. Its called "idling fees" and applies to busy superchargers. Its actually getting them sued by owners with free lifetime supercharging, since they may suddenly be charged [0]. I have free lifetime supercharging on my tesla, and I'm quite happy about the idle fees. [0] https://electrek.co/2021/07/01/tesla-sued-over-extremely-reasonable-supercharger-idle-fees/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/01/tesla-sued-over-extremely-rea...
    - millerm 5y ago
      ONE owner sued, not "owners". They will lose. This has to be one of the dumbest cash-grab attempts I've seen lately.
  - clintonb 5y ago
    Tesla already does this. The cost is $1 per minute.
  - steveBK123 5y ago
    1) The problem is that some non-Tesla EVs charge incredibly slowly as their maximum rate, 50kW or lower vs 150,250,etc kW of more modern EVs. Tesla has "urban superchargers" that are at malls, museums, etc where people are expected to dwell longer and even those are 75kW! So dwell time while charging for a Leaf, i3, etc just to make it to the next charger could be a while by comparison. Meanwhile I pull up to highway supercharger in my Tesla expecting to take a 10min break to stretch my legs & use the restroom while getting 100mi of charge only to find the chargers blocked by putzes with their slow charging cars. The ICE analogy would be pulling into a gas station to find the pumps taken up by gigantic industrial trucks with 300 gallon tanks that you are stuck behind.. or some shitty Yugos or something that force the pump into a slower filling mode that takes them 5x as long to fill up. Maybe none of this matters in US as the vast vast majority of EVs are Tesla anyway, and as others make inroads it will be with cars capable of fast enough charge rates? As it stands today in NYC area, Tesla has about 5x the charger locations of EA, each of which has 4x the number of chargers so... 2) I'm also curious how the payments will be handled. Another aspect that makes Superchargers for Tesla streamlined is that you just pull up & plug-in, the authorization/confirmation of payment is done between the car&charger because your car is tied to your account & credit card. I have found the app/web/QR code/credit card/NFC/RFID dance using 3rd party chargers to take up to 5 minutes to get payment sorted (idiotically none of them just have a credit card swipe like a gas station). Further, we've seen that one weak point for Electrify America seems to be the payment system frequently failing at the charger or server side and people showing up to chargers unable to plug in.
worldmerge 5y ago
This is good news. But, why don't EVs have a standard to follow like gas cars have a standard fill port? It seems like there is a lot of proprietary tech going on in the EV market at the moment, like early 2000s cell phones that all had their own unique charging port. Edit: Thank you for your replies! I'll look into the CCS EV plug.
- judge2020 5y ago
  The reason is because it’s new - there’s no clear winner for what’s the best, and not getting the standard right would likely mean the downfall of EVs. CCS is looking good and Europe has effectively forced it upon manufacturers, though.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    The Tesla adapter is MUCH smaller: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... The Chademo and Us CCS plugs are terrible. Objectively bad (expensive, heavy, etc). The European CCS plug isn’t quite as good as Tesla’s but is probably good enough. The Us should adopt either Tesla’s plug or the European plug.
    - Gravityloss 5y ago
      Why is CCS so big compared to the Tesla one? Why does one plug have to connect to both AC and DC even if you're using only either one?
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        One is designed by committee, the other is designed by a company with a focus on trying to make electric cars more usable and desirable than fossil cars. Also, CCS wanted to reuse some of the pins from the L1/L2 J1772 plug, but the original plug didn’t have room for larger pins. Tesla’s plug was designed from the beginning to be eventually capable of fast charging.
- 5y ago
_ph_ 5y ago
This is good news. The Tesla superchargers seem to be overall the best charging solution. Making them available for everyone will boost electric cars for sure. The only question is: why is Tesla seemingly giving up this "moat"? As the Tesla management probably isn't stupid, they must have a plan behind this change of policy. Will be interesting to see. Perhaps they are at a point where they can scale up the supercharger infrastructure quickly enough and actually make a profit by providing the charging infrastructure.
- zucked 5y ago
  They're giving it up because the other car manufacturers are galvanizing around another standard. What Tesla's got a big market share now, once GM, Buick, Ford, etc. all start pumping out plug-in electric vehicles, Tesla runs the risk of having the odd-person-out charging standard.
  - shmoe 5y ago
    Considering they're all relying on crappy third party networks that cant even get simple "plug and pay" standards going, it's going to be a while before they catch up for sure.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Tesla’s Destination Charging network of free L2 chargers also includes a standard J1772 plug at every location. I don’t own a Tesla but do have a leaf, and I’ve used Tesla’s destination charger more than any other away from my home, combined. Other chargers are often broken or annoying to use. Now, I’m trying to buy a Tesla to replace my Volt for my growing family. The goodwill from that free destination charger acts as cheap advertising. So I suspect it will be for Superchargers. Every EV owner who uses Tesla’s network will be tempted for an even better experience by just buying a Tesla.
- tzs 5y ago
  > The only question is: why is Tesla seemingly giving up this "moat"? Right now only about 2% of US new car sales are electric. In that small pond Tesla is the big fish, with something like 90% of that market. In the overall new car market, though, Tesla is a guppy. Over the next decade or two, that overall market is likely to become more and more electric, with at some point ICE cars becoming the niche product instead of the other way around. Will Tesla be a big fish in that future US new car market? I wouldn't bet on it. They arguably currently have the best electric drivetrain, but they are not as good at many or most of the other aspects of a car. My guess is that the current big car companies can learn to make a great electric drivetrain faster than Tesla can learn to make a great everything else. By opening their charger network before the other companies get a good non-Tesla charging solution widely deployed Tesla has a good chance of becoming the dominant charging network in that future market where as a car company they remain a niche player (probably with sports cars being their niche). And all those electric cars from all those other companies need charging, so if Tesla can dominate the charging market that could be very lucrative for them.
todd3834 5y ago
This is great news but it is already pretty crowded every time I use one of Tesla’s superchargers. I hope this means they will be adding a lot more superchargers.
- darknavi 5y ago
  It really depends on where you are. I do hope Tesla keeps on pumping them out in high-traffic areas though.
- guruz 5y ago
  Does Tesla's navigation guide you to a charger that is likely having a slot for you?
  - todd3834 5y ago
    It does tell you but sometimes the closest charger, even if full is your best option. You end up just having to wait. The wait can be a long time if you are unlucky
  - watt 5y ago
    Yes. It's completely aware how many stalls are free.
athenot 5y ago
Some coffee shop franchise needs to get into EV charging. For the half-hour spent charging, provide a space to lounge/work and of course buy food.
- space_rock 5y ago
  Yep definitely opportunities Another obvious business model is parking lots using car batteries to balance the grid and selling their service to electricity companies. People park during the day and their battery is rented to the electricity companies for load balancing
- edent 5y ago
  Every supermarket I've been to in the UK offers free charging in their car parks
- guruz 5y ago
  As far as I know, gas stations will want to or have to (EU regulation?) install chargers. They also sell coffee :-)
gwbas1c 5y ago
(In the US) Tesla uses a proprietary standard. Every other EV manufacturer uses CCS for high-speed charging. (Chademo was dropped.) The Tesla Supercharger network is just like Betamax: Tesla has a good first mover advantage, just like Sony did. But once every EV sold has a CCS connector, it's not going to make sense to buy a Tesla that can only charge at Tesla's proprietary charging network. Once VHS was on the scene, the Betamax format struggled. And just like Betamax, there will be people who argue until they're blue in the face that Tesla's charger is better than CCS. (Betamax was, in practice worse than VHS. It was more expensive, and because the tapes were physically smaller, feature length films used slower tape speeds, and thus had lower picture quality. Even the supposed better picture quality of Betamax was too small to notice.)
- msoad 5y ago
  I own a Tesla, I don't know why I should care about other charging stations. Tesla's supercharger network is more than enough for road trips and in city I live in I just charge at home. Not sure why Tesla should be worried about their connector format "losing" to competition.
  - duped 5y ago
    Not everyone can charge at home, and access to charging infrastructure is a selling point for those people.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Most folks I know without home charging charge at Superchargers at grocery stores (Meijer grocery stores, specifically, who have an arrangement with Tesla for colocating Supercharge stations, although I've also seen Tesla 72kw urban chargers at higher end groceries in urban areas such as Chicago). Their vehicle is charged back up before their ~weekly grocery shopping trip is complete, and in some cases their employer has installed a J1772 charging station for them (and provides free electricity) as a perk. Those J1772 stations are very reasonably priced compared to a DC fast charger. As long as Tesla can continue to colocate fast chargers at places urban dwellers must frequent (which is likely based on their experience and the brand value), it's a non issue imho. I've seen lots of Electrify America charging stations, but there might as well be tumbleweeds rolling through with how rare it is to see someone charging at one.
nojito 5y ago
Really awesome news. The vast majority of chargers in my area sit unused.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
Tesla's overall mindset will likely keep their charging technology and approach ahead of other networks. Faster charging rates, more charge stations, better maintenance. Complying with a third party standard means they will not be able to lead. In my view, they've always seen charge stations as a profit center and opening to other makes improves the return on that investment. As long as Tesla is selling all the cars they can build, this would be a net positive to revenue. It's also consistent with Musk's overall goal of hastening the transition to renewable energy.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > Faster charging rates Tesla's chargers are slower than CCS chargers. For example, Ionity's chargers are 350 kW: https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html Telsas even charger faster on CCS than on superchargers: https://insideevs.com/news/507489/tesla-model3-charging-faster-ccs2/ https://insideevs.com/news/507489/tesla-model3-charging-fast... The Lucid Air will have a peak charging rate above 300 kW. The Air is on a 900 volt battery platform: https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging
theluketaylor 5y ago
Elon has a long history of just announcing things without details or a plan, so until this is fleshed out I wouldn't get that excited. Thanks to EU regulations, all the superchargers in europe have both the tesla and CCS combo connectors at each stall. Telsa can allow CCS cars to charge with nothing but software. They actually had a bug earlier this year that allowed non-tesla cars to charge for free for a weekend. In north america superchargers only have the telsa connector, which would mean either Tesla will need to offer an adaptor (which would likely have charge rate limits like their Chademo -> tesla adaptor) or add CCS to all their cabinets like they have done in europe (which will take a long time). I suspect this is an offshoot of Norway standing firm on not offering tesla any grants or tax breaks to expand their charging network unless the chargers are publicly available. It wouldn't surprise me this starts in norway and only expands as regulations force them to open up.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  I don’t think it’d take a long time. They could just replace like one stall with CCS. The most time consuming parts like permitting and power installation on premises and stuff already is done. They could convert a decent portion of their network to have one stall with CCS in maybe a couple months. But the Tesla power adapter is superior. Smaller, cheaper, simpler, and more user friendly than the chonky CCS or Chademo plus in the US. (The European plug isn’t so bad.) If I could turn back the clock, I’d open up the Tesla plug and mandate all EV makers use it.
  - Corrado 5y ago
    Tesla has always offered the charging network and patents for anyone to use. The other automakers chose to go another way, unfortunately. I guess it makes sense from their standpoint; you don't want your product tied to a competitor. But it does seem a bit short sighted on their part.
    - shmoe 5y ago
      I believe the issue always was they'd have to use Tesla's billing infrastructure as there are no screens etc on the superchargers. I hear you though.
AkBKukU 5y ago
Just to put it on the record because so many people seem to be getting this wrong. Telsa's connector was not first, but its power delivery capabilities were better at the time. The Roadster (2008) used a different connector than the Model S (2012) and is completely incompatible. JS1772 (2009) was already being adopted as a standard by cars like the Nissan Leaf (2010) before Tesla's current connector was being used. Tesla's Supercharger network at the launch of the Model S was a total of 6 chargers: https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslam... . So the initial infrastructure investment was not that significant. Further reading into that article though you can see the Superchargers were capable of delivering 90kW. JS1772 cars were limited to ~20kW L2 charging at the time which is why Chademo (2010-ish) connectors were included for faster charging on earlier EVs. CCS (2013) would become the unifying replacement that added faster charging to JS1772. More on topic, the rest of the industry and world has moved on and standardized to CCS. No one should start using Tesla's connector on their cars now. But making an adapter to use Tesla chargers on a CCS car could make sense. But having yet another thing to lug around in the car won't be ideal. The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes.
- rattray 5y ago
  How much power can today's CCS and Tesla chargers deliver?
  - shmoe 5y ago
    Tesla is currently at 250kw with the v3 superchargers, but it's been said they can handle more and are about to be software upgraded to 300kw. A v2 supercharger is capable of 150kw. Electrify America's are supposedly capable of 350kw but there isn't really an EV in existence yet that can hit it.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      Can't the Ioniq 5 take 350KW? The car can be purchased today in Korea, I see many in the roads. Coming to the US in the falls.
deregulateMed 5y ago
Just like they opened their patents? I'm not holding my breath, company lost my Trust a few years ago.
dawnerd 5y ago
I think we also need to realize this is just something Elon said on Twitter with no other information. We k ow nothing about what they actually are doing yet we’re acting like they’re going to suddenly be switching to ccs. My guess is they’re just developing an adapter. But also… Elon time is real. Chances it happens this year pretty low.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > We know nothing about what they actually are doing yet we’re acting like they’re going to suddenly be switching to ccs They're doing it to get government subsidies. Governments aren't going to subsidize chargers that only charge one brand of EV, which is proper and correct: https://electrek.co/2021/06/24/tesla-confirms-plan-open-supercharger-network-other-automakers-next-year/ https://electrek.co/2021/06/24/tesla-confirms-plan-open-supe... Tesla has already switched to CCS in Europe. All other manufacturers have switched to CCS in Europe and North America. It would only be sensible for Tesla to switch to CCS in North America as well.
nkotov 5y ago
I'm excited for this change, but only if they make more chargers available. I had a quick road trip from NC to VA and at the supercharger station, there was a line of cars waiting to charge - I can't imagine what that line would look like if it's open to everyone else.
darkwater 5y ago
Question: I live in Europe, I thinkI might end up buying to EVs in the next years. If, say, I buy a Tesla and a Kia, or a Tesla and a Seat, or a Kia and a Volkswagen, will I be able to charge all of them at home with a single charger? Is this "CCS"?
- edent 5y ago
  Assuming they're modern vehicles - yes you can charge them with the same cable. But that isn't CCS. CCS is two chargers in one - Type-2 and DC. The Type-2 / Mennekes connector which provides AC charging at a variety of speeds is available on just about ever charging station I've seen. CCS adds two-pin DC to the bottom of the Type-2 port. If your car has CCS, you can charge from either Type-2 or CCS cables. If your car only has a Type-2 port, you can only use a Type-2 cable. At home, you'll only be charging via AC. Typically, you'll install a charger which either has a fixed Type-2 cable, or a Type-2 port into which you insert your own cable. Hope that makes sense!
- clouddrover 5y ago
  Yes. Europe has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo. Your home charger will have a Type 2 plug for AC charging. The "combo" part is the extra two DC pins that DC fast chargers use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System Almost all EVs in Europe have a CCS Type 2 Combo port (including Tesla Model 3s). The Nissan Leaf still uses a CHAdeMO port for DC fast charging and a Type 2 port for AC charging. The new Nissan Ariya will use CCS Type 2 Combo. The European Tesla Model S and Tesla Model X still use Tesla's modified Type 2 port but come with an adapter for CCS Type 2 Combo support. The new Model S might come with a CCS Type 2 Combo port but it hasn't been released in Europe yet.
chrisjc 5y ago
As a non-Tesla electric vehicle owner, all of the charging stations that i've used have given me nothing but anxiety. Equipment isn't always working, all kinds of different payment systems, etc... As a non-Tesla owner I would be happy to use Tesla's network. I would imagine if I was a Tesla owner, I would be unhappy to hear that now the networks is going to be busier.
Someone 5y ago
So, why do they do that? Do they have/project to have excess capacity and is this defensive, or is this offensive, and do they want to grow their network by being compatible with others, and offer Tesla drivers faster charging at more locations? Whatever it is, they must think going alone won’t cut it anymore.
- darknavi 5y ago
  Others have mentioned that certain places (starting with Norway it sounds) have limited their incentives until they open up to the public.
blhack 5y ago
On the supercharger network: Just finished a road trip from Phoenix to Northern Minnesota and back. There are enough superchargers that you do have to plan your route around them...but that just means staying nearish the freeways (mostly). There seems to be a supercharger about every 150 miles even through the more remote parts of the midwest.
watt 5y ago
My take on this is that Tesla is doing this to kneecap competitors like Ionity who like to offer very non-competitive rates for charging. If your vehicle is from outside of Ionity "old boys network" you must pay 0.79 €/kWh. Tesla SuC rate is 0.37 €/kWh in Germany currently. More importantly though, the other competitors offer has been rather pathetic, one, maybe two charging stalls, where Tesla builds proper spots with 12-18 stalls. Tesla will show the other brands (drivers of which, honestly, might have no idea what they are missing out on) how it's done. With the pricing of charging conundrum, I feel currently the goals of car makers and charging providers like Ionity, Fastned or EnBW (and metric ton of bit-players) were misaligned. I hope this move from Tesla will drive some consolidation, and make other car-makers realize that charging and car sales need to go hand-in hand, be totally aligned.

229 points by Corrado 5y ago

Big potential source of income here. The supercharger network stands head and shoulders above every other charging network in the US. Some key advantages include: reliability, convenience, ubiquity, and location. I've never been to a supercharger with more than one broken stall, they all "just work". I've also tried other options, but I've actually never found one that was operational at the time.

Corrado 5y ago
I agree completely. The convenience of the Tesla system is the most important thing in my book. Charging my Model Y is the same at home as it is at a SuperCharger; just plug it in. It's so easy my Mom and a teenager have done it with no training. I've used other non-Tesla chargers while on road trips (just to try them out) and the experience is much, much worse. There is usually an app do download, or you have to swipe your CC, or both. There is usually some sort of screen with instructions, but they are all different and sometimes the screen is not visible/broken. It's a real mess.
- phkahler 5y ago
  >> I've used other non-Tesla chargers while on road trips (just to try them out) and the experience is much, much worse. Of course it is. They have to support cars from all manufacturers (except Tesla). They all have an app, but so does Tesla. The sum of all charger networks is larger than the Tesla network and growing faster too. I do think it will be interesting to see how this plays out.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Tesla doesn't have an app for charging. The act of plugging in the car is enough to associate the car to a billable account, without requiring fidgeting with a phone to open an app to initiate charging/billing. Don't even need to authorize with NFC. This is a significant improvement over using NFC and apps.
    - p_j_w 5y ago
      Just plugging in the car won't work for Non-Teslas, though, so that advantage is straight out the window.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        At least until there's further standardization to allow it. There's no reason current non-Tesla chargers couldn't support this, other than they haven't bothered to.
        floren 5y ago
        Apparently you can plug in a Ford Mach-e at an Electrify America charger and it "just works". You cannot yet do that with a VW ID.4 (even thought VW built the network) but since the capability is clearly there, I'd expect to see it come in later software updates for the car.
    - atty 5y ago
      How do I pay to charge someone’s car I’m borrowing for a day or two then without it going to their account? Seems too restrictive. Much better to have an NFC scanner that works with Apple/Google pay services. Taking 3 seconds on a tap to pay system is not a hardship that needs to be reduced.
      - vel0city 5y ago
        Right? With recently updated petrol pumps its been pretty simple to negotiate payment. Tap my phone to the pump, choose fuel grade, start pumping. Since its electric, it would be tap phone, plug it in. Having it all tied to some account related with the car its now a much bigger hassle to change the payment method.
      - ericd 5y ago
        That is kind of a corner case unless you’re renting out your car, and not one worth making the main use case worse for, imo. Your friend can always look up the bill and you can Venmo them or hand them cash. Have you used superchargers? I get the sense that a lot of commenters here haven’t. The current UX is nearly spot on perfect - plug in, walk off, app notifies you when it’s almost done charging. Only issue I’ve seen is needing to go back to your car to avoid idle fees, but it’s understandable.
  - darknavi 5y ago
    > The sum of all charger networks is larger than the Tesla network and growing faster too. Do you have any stats on this? I'm not doubting you, but I often browse this which can show (crowd-sourced) changes to the Supercharger network and it is growing pretty fast: https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes
    - tw04 5y ago
      https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/us-charging-network-rankings/ https://evadoption.com/ev-charging-stations-statistics/us-ch...
      - darknavi 5y ago
        I _think_ that table is measured in groups of chargers. If so, comparing the brands is a bit moot since most non-Tesla normally has at least 4 (and normally much more) charging bays where as many other DC fast charging places normally have less than 4 (often 2).
        tw04 5y ago
        No? I guess I'm not sure what you're looking at, it's all explicitly called out. First column is level 2 locations, second column is level 2 connections (aka: charging bays). Column 3 is DC locations, column 4 is DC connections per location. Column 5 they conveniently do the math of average connections per location.
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I think people underestimate that simplicity. Sure, the Taycan can charge faster. In real life, the time you'll spend finding a working charger makes it far slower. Tesla makes it just work, and they do so stunningly well. They're compared to Apple for a reason.
stoddur 5y ago
As well as software execution. You can see queue times for superchargers, how many stalls are out of order etc, all on the map in each Tesla which is very convenient when on a roadtrip
- rpmisms 5y ago
  I hope other OEMs are competent enough to integrate that functionality.
- alexisread 5y ago
  Zapmap and carplay/android auto at least in the UK covers this. Currently, the best chargers in the UK (for convenience, and as much as my limited experience has been) are Instavolt: contactless payment, no app. Not quite as convenient, but familiar for most people. Parking meters are worse!
FanaHOVA 5y ago
The problem is that some of them are already pretty crowded on a consistent basis. For example, I drove from NYC to Wisconsin a few times, every time the Maumee, OH Supercharger is full. There's not really any alternatives to it without going really out of the way. I worry that opening the chargers to all EVs might make it even worse.
- darknavi 5y ago
  I think it will cause more people to use the chargers. It will only be _worse_ if Tesla doesn't react and expand (hopefully with their new-found $$$ from other auto makers).
- rpmisms 5y ago
  The solution is charging higher rates for non-Tesla charging, which opens the door for even more aggressive expansion of the network.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Everyone should pitch in to have one system. It will be the worst if 10 years from now every vehicle has a different ’usb’ port while your mileage count goes lower. Tesla moved first, and that deserves some reward because anyone could have started for decades prior to Tesla.

melling 5y ago
Have we developed the final charging standard? We’ll be using whatever we agree upon for decades.
- Faaak 5y ago
  Yes, it's called CCS is EU/USA. For asia, it's still undecided between CCS and CHAdeMO
  - emteycz 5y ago
    Evidence that's the best for next decades? Sorry but the word of EU bureaucracy is not enough.
    - gambiting 5y ago
      What kind of evidence would you find sufficient? CCS supports 350kW charging speeds(as-is, it can support more with very minor changes to the cable/plug spec), higher than any car currently on the market. What exactly are your requirements to make a charging standard "best for the next decades"?
      - tyho 5y ago
        The Audi e-tron GT charges at 270KW. Pretty close already. A standard petrol/gas pump pushes 22MW, or ~7MW equivalent when taking into account ICE efficiency.
        gambiting 5y ago

helen___keller 5y ago

Just this past weekend I parked my hybrid at a rest stop and glanced enviously at the unused strip of Tesla superchargers, wishing I could hook up to one.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
We traveled 1000+ miles this weekend on Superchargers with our Tesla and it’s just as delightful to use as you’d expect, and the uptime makes me confident enough to roll into a Supercharger with only ~30 miles of range left to ensure a sustained peak charge rate (low battery SOC = higher charge rate, as it tapers as SOC rises). The Supercharger network is also why we ordered a Model Y versus considering other EVs. There's definitely going to have to be some sort of minimum charge rate enforced so vehicles without fast charge capability don't choke the network out for fast charge vehicles. Turnover is crucial considering the cost of fast DC charge stations (~$200k/station), and no one (reasonably) wants to wait to plug in when they arrive to charge. Tesla charges a per minute idle fee once charging is complete to encourage vacating the stall, and I'd expect a similar per minute penalty for slow charging vehicles using the Superchargers. To Tesla's credit, they do install agnostic J1772 chargers at some Supercharger stations (the gas station near Ohare airport comes to mind [1] [2]). [1] https://www.plugshare.com/location/249899 https://www.plugshare.com/location/249899 (the Superchargers) [2] https://www.plugshare.com/location/326963 https://www.plugshare.com/location/326963 (the J1772 chargers)

trollied 5y ago

Great news. Though the EV charging ecosystem is still a huge mess. Each country has 5 or 6 different networks that all require different apps, charge wildly different prices etc. A huge mess. Hopefully things will settle as adoption increases.

that_guy_iain 5y ago
If you're in Europe, there are a few major EMSPs that provide you access to multiple networks. The two biggest players seem to be New Motion owned by Shell and PlugSurfing owned by Fortum. In most major countries these two have a massive percentage of the chargers and networks. In some they have 100%. The pricing is down to the CPOs and the same charger can cost different prices based on what deal they made with the EMSP. Source: I work for a EMSP.
- dkyc 5y ago
  Thanks for the insight! Though the fact that understanding this requires me to learn two new acronyms might hint at the problem with customer adoption and perception.
  - that_guy_iain 5y ago
    I don't think we use those terms in public. We use charging network provider or something for EMSP and operator for CPO (Charging Point Operators). I'm also used to lots of very techincal dicussions on this subject where everyone understands them. Every now and then someone adds in a new term to mean one of the normal terms because of some new thing. When you onboard to our company you have to learn so many acronyms.
mattygh 5y ago
Open charge point protocol (OCPP) is used by all EVs and EV chargers currently for charger management, and they are working on an enhancement that will allow your car to directly exchange payment info with the charger via the charging hardware - no more app needed. It’ll take a few years to take hold but I’m very hopeful this works out, it will make the whole thing so much easier.

brianwawok 5y ago

Important they build new stations to meet demand increases. Being able to actually charge is a key reason to go Tesla right now.

judge2020 5y ago
And, from reactions to this on Reddit, super chargers are already often crowded in the western US. EM has said before that, if they open the network to other EV manufacturers, they’ll want some cash so that they can expand the network to deal with that higher demand.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Yah Midwest has lots of capacity. Seems like CA doesn’t, but I don’t live there so cannot vouch.
  - shmoe 5y ago
    CA has superchargers that have 50+ stalls.. it's not that they don't have a lot of capacity -- it's that damn near everyone has a Tesla.
    - dogorman 5y ago
      >it's not that they don't have a lot of capacity How can you say that any number of anything is 'a lot' when you're specifically not considering demand? What does it even mean for there to be 'a lot of capacity' in a sense divorced from relative demand? 'A lot' only has meaning in relative terms.
      - shmoe 5y ago
        Ok, they have so much demand for Tesla's they cant keep up with it but have massive superchargers in plenty of locations. Fair enough? :)

asah 5y ago

I'm assuming the goal is to slow the deployment of competing networks, while arranging some big benefit (besides branding): revenue, Tesla's charge faster, Tesla's get preference, etc.

fortran77 5y ago

How annoyed will the "S" owners be if they can't charge because all the Supercharger slots are filled up with LEAFs, etc?

mensetmanusman 5y ago
They could have a charge per minute past completion to make sure people don’t leave their cars when not in use (only if people are waiting though).
- drewg123 5y ago
  They already do. Its called "idling fees" and applies to busy superchargers. Its actually getting them sued by owners with free lifetime supercharging, since they may suddenly be charged [0]. I have free lifetime supercharging on my tesla, and I'm quite happy about the idle fees. [0] https://electrek.co/2021/07/01/tesla-sued-over-extremely-reasonable-supercharger-idle-fees/ https://electrek.co/2021/07/01/tesla-sued-over-extremely-rea...
  - millerm 5y ago
    ONE owner sued, not "owners". They will lose. This has to be one of the dumbest cash-grab attempts I've seen lately.
- clintonb 5y ago
  Tesla already does this. The cost is $1 per minute.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  1) The problem is that some non-Tesla EVs charge incredibly slowly as their maximum rate, 50kW or lower vs 150,250,etc kW of more modern EVs. Tesla has "urban superchargers" that are at malls, museums, etc where people are expected to dwell longer and even those are 75kW! So dwell time while charging for a Leaf, i3, etc just to make it to the next charger could be a while by comparison. Meanwhile I pull up to highway supercharger in my Tesla expecting to take a 10min break to stretch my legs & use the restroom while getting 100mi of charge only to find the chargers blocked by putzes with their slow charging cars. The ICE analogy would be pulling into a gas station to find the pumps taken up by gigantic industrial trucks with 300 gallon tanks that you are stuck behind.. or some shitty Yugos or something that force the pump into a slower filling mode that takes them 5x as long to fill up. Maybe none of this matters in US as the vast vast majority of EVs are Tesla anyway, and as others make inroads it will be with cars capable of fast enough charge rates? As it stands today in NYC area, Tesla has about 5x the charger locations of EA, each of which has 4x the number of chargers so... 2) I'm also curious how the payments will be handled. Another aspect that makes Superchargers for Tesla streamlined is that you just pull up & plug-in, the authorization/confirmation of payment is done between the car&charger because your car is tied to your account & credit card. I have found the app/web/QR code/credit card/NFC/RFID dance using 3rd party chargers to take up to 5 minutes to get payment sorted (idiotically none of them just have a credit card swipe like a gas station). Further, we've seen that one weak point for Electrify America seems to be the payment system frequently failing at the charger or server side and people showing up to chargers unable to plug in.

worldmerge 5y ago

This is good news. But, why don't EVs have a standard to follow like gas cars have a standard fill port? It seems like there is a lot of proprietary tech going on in the EV market at the moment, like early 2000s cell phones that all had their own unique charging port. Edit: Thank you for your replies! I'll look into the CCS EV plug.

judge2020 5y ago
The reason is because it’s new - there’s no clear winner for what’s the best, and not getting the standard right would likely mean the downfall of EVs. CCS is looking good and Europe has effectively forced it upon manufacturers, though.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  The Tesla adapter is MUCH smaller: https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_comparison.jpg https://teslatap.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/connector_co... The Chademo and Us CCS plugs are terrible. Objectively bad (expensive, heavy, etc). The European CCS plug isn’t quite as good as Tesla’s but is probably good enough. The Us should adopt either Tesla’s plug or the European plug.
  - Gravityloss 5y ago
    Why is CCS so big compared to the Tesla one? Why does one plug have to connect to both AC and DC even if you're using only either one?
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      One is designed by committee, the other is designed by a company with a focus on trying to make electric cars more usable and desirable than fossil cars. Also, CCS wanted to reuse some of the pins from the L1/L2 J1772 plug, but the original plug didn’t have room for larger pins. Tesla’s plug was designed from the beginning to be eventually capable of fast charging.
5y ago

_ph_ 5y ago

This is good news. The Tesla superchargers seem to be overall the best charging solution. Making them available for everyone will boost electric cars for sure. The only question is: why is Tesla seemingly giving up this "moat"? As the Tesla management probably isn't stupid, they must have a plan behind this change of policy. Will be interesting to see. Perhaps they are at a point where they can scale up the supercharger infrastructure quickly enough and actually make a profit by providing the charging infrastructure.

zucked 5y ago
They're giving it up because the other car manufacturers are galvanizing around another standard. What Tesla's got a big market share now, once GM, Buick, Ford, etc. all start pumping out plug-in electric vehicles, Tesla runs the risk of having the odd-person-out charging standard.
- shmoe 5y ago
  Considering they're all relying on crappy third party networks that cant even get simple "plug and pay" standards going, it's going to be a while before they catch up for sure.
Robotbeat 5y ago
Tesla’s Destination Charging network of free L2 chargers also includes a standard J1772 plug at every location. I don’t own a Tesla but do have a leaf, and I’ve used Tesla’s destination charger more than any other away from my home, combined. Other chargers are often broken or annoying to use. Now, I’m trying to buy a Tesla to replace my Volt for my growing family. The goodwill from that free destination charger acts as cheap advertising. So I suspect it will be for Superchargers. Every EV owner who uses Tesla’s network will be tempted for an even better experience by just buying a Tesla.
tzs 5y ago
> The only question is: why is Tesla seemingly giving up this "moat"? Right now only about 2% of US new car sales are electric. In that small pond Tesla is the big fish, with something like 90% of that market. In the overall new car market, though, Tesla is a guppy. Over the next decade or two, that overall market is likely to become more and more electric, with at some point ICE cars becoming the niche product instead of the other way around. Will Tesla be a big fish in that future US new car market? I wouldn't bet on it. They arguably currently have the best electric drivetrain, but they are not as good at many or most of the other aspects of a car. My guess is that the current big car companies can learn to make a great electric drivetrain faster than Tesla can learn to make a great everything else. By opening their charger network before the other companies get a good non-Tesla charging solution widely deployed Tesla has a good chance of becoming the dominant charging network in that future market where as a car company they remain a niche player (probably with sports cars being their niche). And all those electric cars from all those other companies need charging, so if Tesla can dominate the charging market that could be very lucrative for them.

todd3834 5y ago

This is great news but it is already pretty crowded every time I use one of Tesla’s superchargers. I hope this means they will be adding a lot more superchargers.

darknavi 5y ago
It really depends on where you are. I do hope Tesla keeps on pumping them out in high-traffic areas though.
guruz 5y ago
Does Tesla's navigation guide you to a charger that is likely having a slot for you?
- todd3834 5y ago
  It does tell you but sometimes the closest charger, even if full is your best option. You end up just having to wait. The wait can be a long time if you are unlucky
- watt 5y ago
  Yes. It's completely aware how many stalls are free.

athenot 5y ago

Some coffee shop franchise needs to get into EV charging. For the half-hour spent charging, provide a space to lounge/work and of course buy food.

space_rock 5y ago
Yep definitely opportunities Another obvious business model is parking lots using car batteries to balance the grid and selling their service to electricity companies. People park during the day and their battery is rented to the electricity companies for load balancing
edent 5y ago
Every supermarket I've been to in the UK offers free charging in their car parks
guruz 5y ago
As far as I know, gas stations will want to or have to (EU regulation?) install chargers. They also sell coffee :-)

gwbas1c 5y ago

(In the US) Tesla uses a proprietary standard. Every other EV manufacturer uses CCS for high-speed charging. (Chademo was dropped.) The Tesla Supercharger network is just like Betamax: Tesla has a good first mover advantage, just like Sony did. But once every EV sold has a CCS connector, it's not going to make sense to buy a Tesla that can only charge at Tesla's proprietary charging network. Once VHS was on the scene, the Betamax format struggled. And just like Betamax, there will be people who argue until they're blue in the face that Tesla's charger is better than CCS. (Betamax was, in practice worse than VHS. It was more expensive, and because the tapes were physically smaller, feature length films used slower tape speeds, and thus had lower picture quality. Even the supposed better picture quality of Betamax was too small to notice.)

msoad 5y ago
I own a Tesla, I don't know why I should care about other charging stations. Tesla's supercharger network is more than enough for road trips and in city I live in I just charge at home. Not sure why Tesla should be worried about their connector format "losing" to competition.
- duped 5y ago
  Not everyone can charge at home, and access to charging infrastructure is a selling point for those people.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Most folks I know without home charging charge at Superchargers at grocery stores (Meijer grocery stores, specifically, who have an arrangement with Tesla for colocating Supercharge stations, although I've also seen Tesla 72kw urban chargers at higher end groceries in urban areas such as Chicago). Their vehicle is charged back up before their ~weekly grocery shopping trip is complete, and in some cases their employer has installed a J1772 charging station for them (and provides free electricity) as a perk. Those J1772 stations are very reasonably priced compared to a DC fast charger. As long as Tesla can continue to colocate fast chargers at places urban dwellers must frequent (which is likely based on their experience and the brand value), it's a non issue imho. I've seen lots of Electrify America charging stations, but there might as well be tumbleweeds rolling through with how rare it is to see someone charging at one.

nojito 5y ago

Really awesome news. The vast majority of chargers in my area sit unused.

11thEarlOfMar 5y ago

Tesla's overall mindset will likely keep their charging technology and approach ahead of other networks. Faster charging rates, more charge stations, better maintenance. Complying with a third party standard means they will not be able to lead. In my view, they've always seen charge stations as a profit center and opening to other makes improves the return on that investment. As long as Tesla is selling all the cars they can build, this would be a net positive to revenue. It's also consistent with Musk's overall goal of hastening the transition to renewable energy.

clouddrover 5y ago
> Faster charging rates Tesla's chargers are slower than CCS chargers. For example, Ionity's chargers are 350 kW: https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html https://ionity.eu/en/design-and-tech.html Telsas even charger faster on CCS than on superchargers: https://insideevs.com/news/507489/tesla-model3-charging-faster-ccs2/ https://insideevs.com/news/507489/tesla-model3-charging-fast... The Lucid Air will have a peak charging rate above 300 kW. The Air is on a 900 volt battery platform: https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging https://www.lucidmotors.com/charging

theluketaylor 5y ago

Elon has a long history of just announcing things without details or a plan, so until this is fleshed out I wouldn't get that excited. Thanks to EU regulations, all the superchargers in europe have both the tesla and CCS combo connectors at each stall. Telsa can allow CCS cars to charge with nothing but software. They actually had a bug earlier this year that allowed non-tesla cars to charge for free for a weekend. In north america superchargers only have the telsa connector, which would mean either Tesla will need to offer an adaptor (which would likely have charge rate limits like their Chademo -> tesla adaptor) or add CCS to all their cabinets like they have done in europe (which will take a long time). I suspect this is an offshoot of Norway standing firm on not offering tesla any grants or tax breaks to expand their charging network unless the chargers are publicly available. It wouldn't surprise me this starts in norway and only expands as regulations force them to open up.

Robotbeat 5y ago
I don’t think it’d take a long time. They could just replace like one stall with CCS. The most time consuming parts like permitting and power installation on premises and stuff already is done. They could convert a decent portion of their network to have one stall with CCS in maybe a couple months. But the Tesla power adapter is superior. Smaller, cheaper, simpler, and more user friendly than the chonky CCS or Chademo plus in the US. (The European plug isn’t so bad.) If I could turn back the clock, I’d open up the Tesla plug and mandate all EV makers use it.
- Corrado 5y ago
  Tesla has always offered the charging network and patents for anyone to use. The other automakers chose to go another way, unfortunately. I guess it makes sense from their standpoint; you don't want your product tied to a competitor. But it does seem a bit short sighted on their part.
  - shmoe 5y ago
    I believe the issue always was they'd have to use Tesla's billing infrastructure as there are no screens etc on the superchargers. I hear you though.

AkBKukU 5y ago

Just to put it on the record because so many people seem to be getting this wrong. Telsa's connector was not first, but its power delivery capabilities were better at the time. The Roadster (2008) used a different connector than the Model S (2012) and is completely incompatible. JS1772 (2009) was already being adopted as a standard by cars like the Nissan Leaf (2010) before Tesla's current connector was being used. Tesla's Supercharger network at the launch of the Model S was a total of 6 chargers: https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslam... . So the initial infrastructure investment was not that significant. Further reading into that article though you can see the Superchargers were capable of delivering 90kW. JS1772 cars were limited to ~20kW L2 charging at the time which is why Chademo (2010-ish) connectors were included for faster charging on earlier EVs. CCS (2013) would become the unifying replacement that added faster charging to JS1772. More on topic, the rest of the industry and world has moved on and standardized to CCS. No one should start using Tesla's connector on their cars now. But making an adapter to use Tesla chargers on a CCS car could make sense. But having yet another thing to lug around in the car won't be ideal. The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes.

rattray 5y ago
How much power can today's CCS and Tesla chargers deliver?
- shmoe 5y ago
  Tesla is currently at 250kw with the v3 superchargers, but it's been said they can handle more and are about to be software upgraded to 300kw. A v2 supercharger is capable of 150kw. Electrify America's are supposedly capable of 350kw but there isn't really an EV in existence yet that can hit it.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    Can't the Ioniq 5 take 350KW? The car can be purchased today in Korea, I see many in the roads. Coming to the US in the falls.

deregulateMed 5y ago

Just like they opened their patents? I'm not holding my breath, company lost my Trust a few years ago.

dawnerd 5y ago

I think we also need to realize this is just something Elon said on Twitter with no other information. We k ow nothing about what they actually are doing yet we’re acting like they’re going to suddenly be switching to ccs. My guess is they’re just developing an adapter. But also… Elon time is real. Chances it happens this year pretty low.

clouddrover 5y ago
> We know nothing about what they actually are doing yet we’re acting like they’re going to suddenly be switching to ccs They're doing it to get government subsidies. Governments aren't going to subsidize chargers that only charge one brand of EV, which is proper and correct: https://electrek.co/2021/06/24/tesla-confirms-plan-open-supercharger-network-other-automakers-next-year/ https://electrek.co/2021/06/24/tesla-confirms-plan-open-supe... Tesla has already switched to CCS in Europe. All other manufacturers have switched to CCS in Europe and North America. It would only be sensible for Tesla to switch to CCS in North America as well.

nkotov 5y ago

I'm excited for this change, but only if they make more chargers available. I had a quick road trip from NC to VA and at the supercharger station, there was a line of cars waiting to charge - I can't imagine what that line would look like if it's open to everyone else.

darkwater 5y ago

Question: I live in Europe, I thinkI might end up buying to EVs in the next years. If, say, I buy a Tesla and a Kia, or a Tesla and a Seat, or a Kia and a Volkswagen, will I be able to charge all of them at home with a single charger? Is this "CCS"?

edent 5y ago
Assuming they're modern vehicles - yes you can charge them with the same cable. But that isn't CCS. CCS is two chargers in one - Type-2 and DC. The Type-2 / Mennekes connector which provides AC charging at a variety of speeds is available on just about ever charging station I've seen. CCS adds two-pin DC to the bottom of the Type-2 port. If your car has CCS, you can charge from either Type-2 or CCS cables. If your car only has a Type-2 port, you can only use a Type-2 cable. At home, you'll only be charging via AC. Typically, you'll install a charger which either has a fixed Type-2 cable, or a Type-2 port into which you insert your own cable. Hope that makes sense!
clouddrover 5y ago
Yes. Europe has standardized on CCS Type 2 Combo. Your home charger will have a Type 2 plug for AC charging. The "combo" part is the extra two DC pins that DC fast chargers use: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Charging_System Almost all EVs in Europe have a CCS Type 2 Combo port (including Tesla Model 3s). The Nissan Leaf still uses a CHAdeMO port for DC fast charging and a Type 2 port for AC charging. The new Nissan Ariya will use CCS Type 2 Combo. The European Tesla Model S and Tesla Model X still use Tesla's modified Type 2 port but come with an adapter for CCS Type 2 Combo support. The new Model S might come with a CCS Type 2 Combo port but it hasn't been released in Europe yet.

chrisjc 5y ago

As a non-Tesla electric vehicle owner, all of the charging stations that i've used have given me nothing but anxiety. Equipment isn't always working, all kinds of different payment systems, etc... As a non-Tesla owner I would be happy to use Tesla's network. I would imagine if I was a Tesla owner, I would be unhappy to hear that now the networks is going to be busier.

Someone 5y ago

So, why do they do that? Do they have/project to have excess capacity and is this defensive, or is this offensive, and do they want to grow their network by being compatible with others, and offer Tesla drivers faster charging at more locations? Whatever it is, they must think going alone won’t cut it anymore.

darknavi 5y ago
Others have mentioned that certain places (starting with Norway it sounds) have limited their incentives until they open up to the public.

blhack 5y ago

On the supercharger network: Just finished a road trip from Phoenix to Northern Minnesota and back. There are enough superchargers that you do have to plan your route around them...but that just means staying nearish the freeways (mostly). There seems to be a supercharger about every 150 miles even through the more remote parts of the midwest.

watt 5y ago

My take on this is that Tesla is doing this to kneecap competitors like Ionity who like to offer very non-competitive rates for charging. If your vehicle is from outside of Ionity "old boys network" you must pay 0.79 €/kWh. Tesla SuC rate is 0.37 €/kWh in Germany currently. More importantly though, the other competitors offer has been rather pathetic, one, maybe two charging stalls, where Tesla builds proper spots with 12-18 stalls. Tesla will show the other brands (drivers of which, honestly, might have no idea what they are missing out on) how it's done. With the pricing of charging conundrum, I feel currently the goals of car makers and charging providers like Ionity, Fastned or EnBW (and metric ton of bit-players) were misaligned. I hope this move from Tesla will drive some consolidation, and make other car-makers realize that charging and car sales need to go hand-in hand, be totally aligned.