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Cryptocurrency is like taking the worst parts of today's capitalist system

• jokoon 5y ago
  > After years of studying it, I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity. Yes, not even surprised. The FBI is actively seeking experts who can trace transactions, I'm pretty sure BTC is actively being used to launder money. I really don't see how BTC could be so high.
  • cdot2 5y ago
    Everything is used to launder money
    • deregulateMed 5y ago
      Anyone who says Bitcoin is used for illegal purposes should be ignored. They obviously are newbies learning about Bitcoin for the first time.
      • blackshaw 5y ago
        What the hell are you talking about? How is it remotely controversial to say that Bitcoin is used for illegal purposes? Have you ever heard of the dark web?
        • deregulateMed 5y ago
          Cash is used for illegal purposes. Barter is used for illegal purposes. Bitcoin is being used for illegal purposes. Ramen is used for illegal purposes. Ban ramen, Bitcoin, prison yogurt, barter, USD. Bitcoin is significantly easier to track than cash or Ramen. If you want to get rid of illegal Bitcoin transactions you simply need the government to care. But the real risk is the ramen/USD trade, that can't be tracked. Ban Ramen?
          • consider_the 5y ago
            How is ramen used for illegal purposes?
            • deregulateMed 5y ago
              Buying drugs(in prison).
          • antihero 5y ago
            You can't exchange physical goods online in order to pay drug dealers.
            • deregulateMed 5y ago
              But physical drugs are moved? Right...
              • antihero 5y ago
                One way.
      • Hjfrf 5y ago
        I agree that people should be more specific. Financial crime is not the only possible use of cryptocurrencies, but it is the only use case where it is potentially better than dollars.
  • 1qaz2wsx3edc 5y ago
    artificially enforced scarcity is something I wholly agree with, at anytime in the future the MAX_MONEY could change. https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/7fcf53f7b4524572d1d0c9a5fdc388e87eb02416/src/amount.h#L25 https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/7fcf53f7b4524572d1d0... Code is not immutable. If there was a algorithm for MAX_SUPPLY immutability that would be something of interest.
• samvega_ 5y ago
  In 10
• Zealotux 5y ago
  Already discussed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27841947
• imtringued 5y ago
  Yes, let them play with their magic internet money. Keep the USD and EUR out of this.
  • deregulateMed 5y ago
    The difference between magic internet money and USD is the word internet. All money is based on faith. At least Bitcoin has a cap. Dealing with inflation, even moderate amounts is annoying and risky. I'm sure you'd rather have Bitcoin if you lived in Germany, Zimbabwe, or Venezuela (to make a few hyperinflation events). I'm anti shitcoins, but at least Bitcoin has trust and scarcity.
    • jstx1 5y ago
      You can't run an economy on a fixed-supply currency. We've tried in the past. Bitcoin's scarcity creates an incentive to get in early and hoard your spot on the blockchain. I don't get how that's productive or helps anyone unless you really manage to convince other people that having a spot on the blockchain is something extremely important.
      • deregulateMed 5y ago
        "How much Bitcoin do you have?" Not enough I know those crazy libertarians who had 100+ Bitcoin. They mostly sold. I think you could also argue that infinite supply currency is bad for the lower class.
        • deleted 5y ago
          [deleted]
        • throwaway2048 5y ago
          inflation in general is good for people that have large debt loads, which tends to be lower class people.
      • christophilus 5y ago
        > You can't run an economy on a fixed-supply currency. This is not a universally accepted truth. In the next decade or three, we may find out that you can’t run an economy on printing presses.
• tudorw 5y ago
  Cryptocurrency discussions on HN often feel like 90's me discussing how fax machines would be obsolete, not because the Internet offered a better solution at the time, digital signatures were not binding afaik so this was a real barrier, it was because I could see what was down the line, the progression, while sporadic was to a degree predictable, the first time I used video or played games on a phone, I knew other people would want this, same with the first online payment systems, to entertain the idea that the cryptocurrency world in it's entirety is a worthless sham is to miss a lot of very interesting people doing a lot of very interesting work, I hope I'm around to see something worthy come out of the space, it would not surprise me if it takes another 10 years or 6 months. Look at the history of railways and canals, no one was really disputing that they were game changers, yet the level of fraud, hype and failures is not dissimilar to what we see in this new world, it doesn't automatically mean the idea itself is a dud.
  • zeusk 5y ago
    I'm with you that digital currency is the way forward, but it's hard for me to swallow that it'll be "crypto currency". Also, the space is as you said, rife with fraud - not very different from early internet I suppose (what do I know, I was born in 95).
    • DSingularity 5y ago
      Exactly. I am starting to believe that the solution to this cryptocurrency problem is a USD stable-coin backed by government and not coinbase/algorithms. Put the whole “we need internet money” arguments coming from the cryptocurrency community.
      • deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      • bena 5y ago
        You know what's a USD stable-coin backed by government? The USD. My money is already mostly digital, represented by moving around numbers in databases. I handle cash very rarely. I don't need my money to be cryptographically secure, I need access to my money to be cryptographically secure. I think that's something crypto-enthusiasts skip over, they're focusing on a tangential issue.
• jstx1 5y ago
  He's just right. I can't object to using cryptocurrencies as a financial instrument to make money but all the arguments about technology, economics or freedom are not just wrong but very often the exact opposite is true.
  • mirekrusin 5y ago
    System designed by geek anarchists! I don't think it was meant to be "nice", the intention was for it to be neutral to the point it hurts.
    • mgbmtl 5y ago
      Is it neutral, to design a system where those with more resources have more power?
      • yreg 5y ago
        Yes. Those with more resources always have more power. Unless some entity takes those resources away at which point they don't have more resources.
        • MereInterest 5y ago
          So, neutrality supports the entities that have more resources. Since it is supporting them, can it really be called "neutral"?
        • carnitine 5y ago
          But shouldn’t something have been done to ensure a better initial distribution of those assets? To be a Bitcoin maximalist basically means you want a future in which the Winkelvoss twins, Pompliano et al are the richest people of all time. How is that a future worth fighting for?
          • 7sidedmarble 5y ago
            >wants to revolutionize the entire system of centralized currency >can't see any reason why you'd want to challenge the existing distribution of that currency
• aww_dang 5y ago
  There wouldn't be a need for alternatives if gov. regulators were doing such a marvelous job centrally planning economies. I get it. People hate "greedy capitalists" and need someone to blame. The Monopoly Man trope is tired. I don't understand the lack of focus on those who are currently manipulating markets. The best part of crypotcurrency is that is entirely voluntary. You're not coerced to participate. The author is free to not use it. Compare that to bailouts, bail-ins, "economic stimulus", Cantillon effects and wholesale debasement of state issued currency. Have problems with centralization and manipulation driven by popular exchanges? Why not examine the regulations prohibiting competition in this space instead of blaming a straw-man vision of capitalism? The author strikes out at capitalism, but in a laissez-faire system there would be greater competition, preventing these issues.
  • kristiandupont 5y ago
    >The author is free to not use it Sure, but he's not free from the consequences to the climate.
• char8 5y ago
  Then why can't i stop working on it for free? I've never been so passionate about working on open source; it's a compulsion at this point.
• atc 5y ago
  No
• Proven 5y ago
  That rant doesn't make any sense. What's stopping you from creating an equitable (or whatever) coin based on the European social welfare state model or even communism (send an email to the devs that you "need" 1 million coins and your wallet address - problem solved)? I'll tell you what: that cryptocoin would go to shit in no time. There have been several attemps to create shitcoins with socialistic rules or management, and they have all failed (google it). Free market capitalism is the least bad system known to man. I challenge you to create a coin that works on "democratic socialist" principles and survives more than one quarter! And in the case anyone wonders how come the euro is still around, that's because you're forced to accept it and use it. In crypto, it's voluntary. You don't have to accept it, you don't have to use it, you can mint your own. So when someone says a voluntary crypto currency has taken wthe worst parts of capitalism, that is incomprehensible.
• janandonly 5y ago
  It is sad how this person is giving off of "cryptocurrency" because the answer to most of his complaints is... a cryptocurrency, if not, THE only cryptocurrency worth mentioning here.. Which is Bitcoin of course. > After years of studying it, I believe that cryptocurrency is an inherently right-wing, hyper-capitalistic technology built primarily to amplify the wealth of its proponents through a combination of tax avoidance, diminished regulatory oversight and artificially enforced scarcity. Nonsense, if I bought old-school gold or silver coins I could dodge taxes just as easily. "Artificially enforced scarcity" is the whole point of Bitcoin... If you like money that can be printed out of thin air, just used the Zimbabwe dollar ha ha. > Despite claims of “decentralization”, the cryptocurrency industry is controlled by a powerful cartel of wealthy figures who, with time, have evolved to incorporate many of the same institutions tied to the existing centralized financial system they supposedly set out to replace. Like I said, most "crypto currencies" are scams, Bitcoin does not have the stated above drawbacks. > The cryptocurrency industry leverages a network of shady business connections, bought influencers and pay-for-play media outlets to perpetuate a cult-like “get rich quick” funnel designed to extract new money from the financially desperate and naive. Same: Bitcoin does not have these drawbacks... other shady "crypto's" unfortunately, do. > Financial exploitation undoubtedly existed before cryptocurrency, but cryptocurrency is almost purpose built to make the funnel of profiteering more efficient for those at the top and less safeguarded for the vulnerable. This is a Cold War propaganda tactic: he is saying the OPPOSITE of that is true... Bitcoin helps people who are to poor to have access to a bank account have access to something even better: sound and nonconfiscateable money, right on their mobile devices. Look at the new legislation in Paraguay. > Cryptocurrency is like taking the worst parts of today's capitalist system (eg. corruption, fraud, inequality) and using software to technically limit the use of interventions (eg. audits, regulation, taxation) which serve as protections or safety nets for the average person. Again, Cold War tactics by spinning the truth upside down... How much more transparency and audit-ability then in a PUBLIC ledger (blockchain) could you possibly want? Again, this is standard in Bitcoin. > Lose your savings account password? Your fault. Fall victim to a scam? Your fault. Billionaires manipulating markets? They’re geniuses. This is the type of dangerous “free for all” capitalism cryptocurrency was unfortunately architected to facilitate since its inception. Again, Cold War "spin the truth upside down" tactics here. How many bankers, brokers and traders went to jail after 2008? I believe one guy, in Iceland... So the old system is shielding corruption, not the new system. About losing acces to your bank account? Tell that to the people of Cyprus or Greece, where the government decided to do a "haircut" which is in Orwells street of language mis-use... It means they confiscate parts of your savings without you doing anything wrong at all!
• ecocentrik 5y ago
  One use case he forgot to mention was funneling dark money to political groups which I imagine is the primary way some far right organizations in the US and abroad are being financed.
• EL_Loco 5y ago
  Imagine you had 5,000 online bookstores in 1997, and 99.9% of them had some self described great new tech but none of that tech was being used by any publisher, distributor, printer, author, etc. I did a lot of research on the top 50 cryptocurrencies and distributed ledgers, for quite some time now, and it's appalling how only a handful (really, like 4) have real world use cases at a large scale and might have a future. Of course, what's more appalling is how people will put their money on all the other 4996 crypto and think that because the price was speculated up, it must mean that the tech is good and will be used in the future. edit: added the might
  • breadzeppelin__ 5y ago
    Relevant Jared Dillion (former goldman sachs I think, now a newsletter guy) tweet from yesterday: > This may seem hard to believe, but there is more money to be made being long fraud rather than short fraud in the stock market. https://twitter.com/dailydirtnap/status/1416796595132243969 https://twitter.com/dailydirtnap/status/1416796595132243969
  • danaugrs 5y ago
    What you described is very similar to the state of affairs of internet companies in the beginning of the 2000s. It is probably a common effect in the early days of any major paradigm shift and a predictor of big changes to come.
• whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  I just really don't understand how you can have grown up over the past 30 years and think the government will save you. You've been forever priced out of owning a house, you probably would have been able to afford one 10 years ago if you hadn't been taxed so high but you're only now at the level where you have the deposit because of that but now the prices are so high your salary isn't enough anyway. Maybe I'm just one of those people who's brain has been broken by Bitcoin, but I look at how hard the government fights to prevent me building savings, I look at how taxes are so aggressive they prevent working class from building wealth and becoming middle class, they prevent middle class from gaining any form of independence and the narrative from many people like this Twitter account is that the billionaires are to blame. I can't be the only one who thinks, even if you could make them pay which I think is naive, that money would just still be sucked up into the government because they have zero accountability for spending and my taxes wouldn't go down at all. But finally we do have an escape hatch.
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  • enumjorge 5y ago
    You think the government is what is keeping you from being able to afford a house? Is the government responsible for most of the job opportunities accumulating in metro areas causing people to move to cities, driving up demand and therefore value? Is the government responsible for the sky high salaries of FAANG and Silicon Valley unicorns that are also driving up prices in most cities? Or the fact that salaries haven't kept up with increases in cost of living? If you think the government and taxes are responsible for the weakening of the middle class, you are sorely mistaken. The government is far from efficient, but you have roads right? And fire departments and public utilities and basic protections like the fact that a company can't pay you by giving your coupons that can only be used at stores they own. > hey have zero accountability for spending Zero accountability, really? And you think bitcoin, the cryptocurrency that has had wild swings in price caused by a few unknown actors, has better accountability?
    • whywhywhywhy 5y ago
• api 5y ago
  I've called a lot of the present-day cryptocurrency ecosystem a "parody of financial capitalism." It's ironic to me because the whole movement started as a kind of cypherpunk revolt against financial capitalism, but ended up becoming it. It's the old "never fight against" principle. Fight against something as opposed to for something and you tend to mimic the thing you are fighting.