9 ms·

When Vaccine Apathy, Not Hesitancy, Drives Vaccine Disinterest

14 points by lnyan 5y ago

briefcomment 5y ago
Why is there no widespread antibody testing to see if we've reached herd immunity? The push to vaccinate is only necessary if we're not there yet. I recall a study from a couple months ago claiming several times more people caught the virus than was generally thought.
- owenmarshall 5y ago
  The US on Friday saw the highest daily increase in cases since May. We don’t need to test for herd immunity; it’s patently obvious we haven’t reached it.
  - AuryGlenz 5y ago
    Well, we probably had in most places. The variant changed the math, but we’ll get there soon enough again.
- mchusma 5y ago
  We don't need testing to figure out of we are at herd immunity. We know we are not, because the virus is spreading still and increasing speed now. It is only really an issue amongst unvaccinated. This population is basically anti-vax, apathetic, or children for whom the government has banned from getting the vaccine, regardless of circumstance.
  - Zababa 5y ago
    In France, most people infected are young (< 55 years old), part of it because we could only access the vaccine at a later date than older people. Everyone that I know got their two shots, but most of them got the second less than a week ago.
  - saddata 5y ago
    Or, if you read the featured article, black people and native Americans who rightfully do not trust the racist medical system.
- Larrikin 5y ago
  Who are these people you imagine are willing to go in for comprehensive antibody testing but are refusing to take the vaccine.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    People who don't want the vaccine and don't want to be harassed for it.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > People who don't want the vaccine and don't want to be harassed for it That’s easy to do—stay on private property. This country’s laws were written to protect those rights. With WFH, it’s more plausible than ever.
      - briefcomment 5y ago
        Accepting proof of antibodies would be an even better way for everyone to get what they want right?
        JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        Unfortunately, no. Natural immunity is less durable against variants [1]. (Proof of exposure should be fine, though, for low-risk stuff in areas not undergoing an outbreak.) Given that and assuming we’ll have a permanently unvaccinated population, the virus would be expected to keep reinfecting that group, thereby increasing the selection pressure for strains that reinfect. [1] https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
        bananabiscuit 5y ago
        Does this study actually conclude that vaccination is better at preventing being infected with variants? It looked to me that the study only proves that specifically the spike protein antibodies from the vaccine bind more generally than spike protein antibodies generated by a natural infection. However during the course of a natural infection, antibodies would be generated for more targets on the virus than just the spike protein, wouldn’t it? Meanwhile the vaccine exclusively produces spike protein antibodies. This study doesn’t make any statements about how much effect those additional antibodies would have against variants.
- unpolloloco 5y ago
  The problem with herd immunity is that the rate differs based on the variant. For something much more transmissible (like the Delta variant), herd immunity numbers are much different than for the original one. There's an argument that the US reached herd immunity on the original one pretty early on in vaccinations. And alpha with current vaccination rates. It's clear we haven't with Delta because numbers are going way up in unvaccinated people.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Immunity to one would be immunity to the other They use the same vector for infection which so the immunities offer protection against. The protection mechanism is a game of catch up though.
    - tzs 5y ago
      You are thinking about individual immunity. The comment you were responding to was about herd immunity. Herd immunity is when enough people have individual immunity that when those without immunity get infected so many of those around them are immune that the outbreak quickly dies out on its own. Even if individual immunity is the same for variants A and B of some virus, if variant B spreads more easily than variant A then you will have to have a higher percentage of the population with individual immunity in order to have herd immunity.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nradov 5y ago
  The CDC estimates that about 114M Americans have been infected but only a quarter of those were officially counted as cases. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
- hatware 5y ago
  > Why is there no widespread antibody testing to see if we've reached herd immunity? Because then the show has to stop. It's pretty dark if you think about it long enough.
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
99.5% of those dying from Covid in America are unvaccinated. 99.5%. At a certain point, I don’t know what to say, but the train has to leave the station. If you choose to run around unvaccinated and get Covid, the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or dealing with the costs of long Covid. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law.) This keeps everyone happy, and somewhat equitably constrains the harm. (It leaves those who can’t get vaccinated SOL.)
- smt88 5y ago
  The problem is that you can't differentiate between "stupid" and "justifiably ignorant" or just "scarred by history". Black people were literally experimented on under the guise of vaccination programs. They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again. And then you just have millions of people who don't know basic biology or medicine, and vaccines are no more fathomable than magic. Add lots of misinfo from Facebook to that mess, and you have people who can't always be blamed for their fear.
  - vmception 5y ago
    > the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or deal with the costs of long Covid still remains true and you didn’t present a counterpoint to that
    - smt88 5y ago
      Would you say the same thing about abortions? Just because a child was taught that contraception is evil, we shouldn't have to pay for her abortion?
      - vmception 5y ago
        This example doesn't disrupt anybody else’s life, limiting the similarity only to b) which I don't have an opinion about in isolation both a) and b) have to be satisfied for me to care enough to dissect the similarities and offer an opinion I’ve come to understand your example is a topic a lot of people care passionately about though. That’s interesting.
underseacables 5y ago
There’s also just plain distrust of government and media pushing something. Our trust in government and media is so low that when they say do something, most rational people are immediately suspicious.
- kcplate 5y ago
  Exactly this. There is an unbelievable irony in the fact that the current administration is on a intense PR push to get unvaccinated Americans to trust the vaccines and get vaccinated when they specifically communicated during their (Biden and Harris) campaigns last year their distrust regarding the vaccine due to its association with Trump, speed of development, and experimental nature. This is what happens when people check in their common sense for political allegiances. I have no doubt that if Trump had won, we would still be having this issue of the distrustful unvaccinated, but their politics would be more on the democrats side.
  - nradov 5y ago
    In 2020 California and several other states said that they would conduct independent safety reviews of the vaccines because they didn't trust the Trump administration. When state government officials make irresponsible statements like that it's not surprising that some people are hesitant. https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/10/27/western-states-join-californias-scientific-safety-review-workgroup-to-ensure-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/10/27/western-states-join-califo...
    - hvac 5y ago
      With three out of those four states having vaccination rates that are now above average, how can you be sure that an independent safety review didn't have the opposite effect?
      - kcplate 5y ago
        At this point it’s impossible to say what the effect would have been. The states that have the above average rates are all very blue and that tracks with the current political winds of the democrats regarding vaccines. The political opinion on vaccines immediately shifted 180 degrees on Biden’s win, because there there was no need to resist Trump and vaccine hesitancy was a tactic being employed by the resisters. Independent review may have convinced some who were hesitant but I suspect they would have been the folks independently hesitant as opposed to the “politically hesitant”. The politically hesitant would hold out until their trusted party authorities blessed the vaccines.
BJBBB 5y ago
Anecdotal, but they are data points. 1. Co-worker, apparently healthy cauc make age 43, received Pfizer vaccine, contracted covid approx 33 days after 2d dose. Was in hospital for 3 weeks and has had various problems for several months. 2. Neighbor's kid, very fit (volleyball, track) hispanic female age 16, received Pfizer vaccine, has had joint problems, headaches, dizziness, and other symptoms since being vaccinated. 3. Myself, cranky geezer of dubious health and doubtful usefulness male age 64, received Janssen vaccine and approx 19-20 days later had mild symptoms that were originally believed to be a cold but later tested as covid positive, and still feel normal and cranky. So from my little world, the only observed efficacy is the national and global statistics on covid spread and prevention per vaccinations. Your mileage may vary.
- BJBBB 5y ago
  I am not an anti-vaxer. I did not say that we should not vaccinate against the covid virus. I did not disparage any political view point. I did not include any racial or ethnic slurs. Supposedly educated and informed people need to be careful and always remain analytical whether or not the presentation of empirical data are coincident with your belief system. And if you down-vote, have the technical and ethical veracity to provide a comment as to why you think I am full of doggy doo-doo.
  - tboyd47 5y ago
    You didn’t get downvoted because you had the wrong opinion or behavior; you got downvoted because you have the wrong facts. In this day and age, some truths just cannot be spoken anymore.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html It sucks to get downvoted, but it happens to everyone. Moreover, unfairly downvoted comments usually (though not always) eventually get corrective upvotes: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=corrective%20upvote https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... This happened with your comment above. Meanwhile the off-topic meta complaint lingers on as uncollected garbage even after it has been falsified.
tmn 5y ago
Have others listened to Bret Weinstein on this subject? Thoughts? He by all accounts is credible and provides plenty of nuance for reasons to be skeptical
- BJBBB 5y ago
  'Nuance' is not usable as data for making decisions. 'Nuance' tends to be used in lieu of empirical data.

14 points by lnyan 5y ago

Why is there no widespread antibody testing to see if we've reached herd immunity? The push to vaccinate is only necessary if we're not there yet. I recall a study from a couple months ago claiming several times more people caught the virus than was generally thought.

owenmarshall 5y ago
The US on Friday saw the highest daily increase in cases since May. We don’t need to test for herd immunity; it’s patently obvious we haven’t reached it.
- AuryGlenz 5y ago
  Well, we probably had in most places. The variant changed the math, but we’ll get there soon enough again.
mchusma 5y ago
We don't need testing to figure out of we are at herd immunity. We know we are not, because the virus is spreading still and increasing speed now. It is only really an issue amongst unvaccinated. This population is basically anti-vax, apathetic, or children for whom the government has banned from getting the vaccine, regardless of circumstance.
- Zababa 5y ago
  In France, most people infected are young (< 55 years old), part of it because we could only access the vaccine at a later date than older people. Everyone that I know got their two shots, but most of them got the second less than a week ago.
- saddata 5y ago
  Or, if you read the featured article, black people and native Americans who rightfully do not trust the racist medical system.
Larrikin 5y ago
Who are these people you imagine are willing to go in for comprehensive antibody testing but are refusing to take the vaccine.
- briefcomment 5y ago
  People who don't want the vaccine and don't want to be harassed for it.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > People who don't want the vaccine and don't want to be harassed for it That’s easy to do—stay on private property. This country’s laws were written to protect those rights. With WFH, it’s more plausible than ever.
    - briefcomment 5y ago
      Accepting proof of antibodies would be an even better way for everyone to get what they want right?
      - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
        Unfortunately, no. Natural immunity is less durable against variants [1]. (Proof of exposure should be fine, though, for low-risk stuff in areas not undergoing an outbreak.) Given that and assuming we’ll have a permanently unvaccinated population, the virus would be expected to keep reinfecting that group, thereby increasing the selection pressure for strains that reinfect. [1] https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-generated-from-covid-19-vaccines-differs-from-an-infection/ https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2021/06/22/how-immunity-genera...
        bananabiscuit 5y ago
        Does this study actually conclude that vaccination is better at preventing being infected with variants? It looked to me that the study only proves that specifically the spike protein antibodies from the vaccine bind more generally than spike protein antibodies generated by a natural infection. However during the course of a natural infection, antibodies would be generated for more targets on the virus than just the spike protein, wouldn’t it? Meanwhile the vaccine exclusively produces spike protein antibodies. This study doesn’t make any statements about how much effect those additional antibodies would have against variants.
unpolloloco 5y ago
The problem with herd immunity is that the rate differs based on the variant. For something much more transmissible (like the Delta variant), herd immunity numbers are much different than for the original one. There's an argument that the US reached herd immunity on the original one pretty early on in vaccinations. And alpha with current vaccination rates. It's clear we haven't with Delta because numbers are going way up in unvaccinated people.
- vmception 5y ago
  Immunity to one would be immunity to the other They use the same vector for infection which so the immunities offer protection against. The protection mechanism is a game of catch up though.
  - tzs 5y ago
    You are thinking about individual immunity. The comment you were responding to was about herd immunity. Herd immunity is when enough people have individual immunity that when those without immunity get infected so many of those around them are immune that the outbreak quickly dies out on its own. Even if individual immunity is the same for variants A and B of some virus, if variant B spreads more easily than variant A then you will have to have a higher percentage of the population with individual immunity in order to have herd immunity.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nradov 5y ago
The CDC estimates that about 114M Americans have been infected but only a quarter of those were officially counted as cases. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burden.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
hatware 5y ago
> Why is there no widespread antibody testing to see if we've reached herd immunity? Because then the show has to stop. It's pretty dark if you think about it long enough.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago

99.5% of those dying from Covid in America are unvaccinated. 99.5%. At a certain point, I don’t know what to say, but the train has to leave the station. If you choose to run around unvaccinated and get Covid, the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or dealing with the costs of long Covid. (See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stupid_Motorist_Law.) This keeps everyone happy, and somewhat equitably constrains the harm. (It leaves those who can’t get vaccinated SOL.)

smt88 5y ago
The problem is that you can't differentiate between "stupid" and "justifiably ignorant" or just "scarred by history". Black people were literally experimented on under the guise of vaccination programs. They have no reason to believe that isn't going to happen again. And then you just have millions of people who don't know basic biology or medicine, and vaccines are no more fathomable than magic. Add lots of misinfo from Facebook to that mess, and you have people who can't always be blamed for their fear.
- vmception 5y ago
  > the rest of us shouldn’t have to (a) shut down our lives or (b) pay tax dollars to save you if you end up in the hospital or deal with the costs of long Covid still remains true and you didn’t present a counterpoint to that
  - smt88 5y ago
    Would you say the same thing about abortions? Just because a child was taught that contraception is evil, we shouldn't have to pay for her abortion?
    - vmception 5y ago
      This example doesn't disrupt anybody else’s life, limiting the similarity only to b) which I don't have an opinion about in isolation both a) and b) have to be satisfied for me to care enough to dissect the similarities and offer an opinion I’ve come to understand your example is a topic a lot of people care passionately about though. That’s interesting.

underseacables 5y ago

There’s also just plain distrust of government and media pushing something. Our trust in government and media is so low that when they say do something, most rational people are immediately suspicious.

kcplate 5y ago
Exactly this. There is an unbelievable irony in the fact that the current administration is on a intense PR push to get unvaccinated Americans to trust the vaccines and get vaccinated when they specifically communicated during their (Biden and Harris) campaigns last year their distrust regarding the vaccine due to its association with Trump, speed of development, and experimental nature. This is what happens when people check in their common sense for political allegiances. I have no doubt that if Trump had won, we would still be having this issue of the distrustful unvaccinated, but their politics would be more on the democrats side.
- nradov 5y ago
  In 2020 California and several other states said that they would conduct independent safety reviews of the vaccines because they didn't trust the Trump administration. When state government officials make irresponsible statements like that it's not surprising that some people are hesitant. https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/10/27/western-states-join-californias-scientific-safety-review-workgroup-to-ensure-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/10/27/western-states-join-califo...
  - hvac 5y ago
    With three out of those four states having vaccination rates that are now above average, how can you be sure that an independent safety review didn't have the opposite effect?
    - kcplate 5y ago
      At this point it’s impossible to say what the effect would have been. The states that have the above average rates are all very blue and that tracks with the current political winds of the democrats regarding vaccines. The political opinion on vaccines immediately shifted 180 degrees on Biden’s win, because there there was no need to resist Trump and vaccine hesitancy was a tactic being employed by the resisters. Independent review may have convinced some who were hesitant but I suspect they would have been the folks independently hesitant as opposed to the “politically hesitant”. The politically hesitant would hold out until their trusted party authorities blessed the vaccines.

BJBBB 5y ago

Anecdotal, but they are data points. 1. Co-worker, apparently healthy cauc make age 43, received Pfizer vaccine, contracted covid approx 33 days after 2d dose. Was in hospital for 3 weeks and has had various problems for several months. 2. Neighbor's kid, very fit (volleyball, track) hispanic female age 16, received Pfizer vaccine, has had joint problems, headaches, dizziness, and other symptoms since being vaccinated. 3. Myself, cranky geezer of dubious health and doubtful usefulness male age 64, received Janssen vaccine and approx 19-20 days later had mild symptoms that were originally believed to be a cold but later tested as covid positive, and still feel normal and cranky. So from my little world, the only observed efficacy is the national and global statistics on covid spread and prevention per vaccinations. Your mileage may vary.

BJBBB 5y ago
I am not an anti-vaxer. I did not say that we should not vaccinate against the covid virus. I did not disparage any political view point. I did not include any racial or ethnic slurs. Supposedly educated and informed people need to be careful and always remain analytical whether or not the presentation of empirical data are coincident with your belief system. And if you down-vote, have the technical and ethical veracity to provide a comment as to why you think I am full of doggy doo-doo.
- tboyd47 5y ago
  You didn’t get downvoted because you had the wrong opinion or behavior; you got downvoted because you have the wrong facts. In this day and age, some truths just cannot be spoken anymore.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvotes. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html It sucks to get downvoted, but it happens to everyone. Moreover, unfairly downvoted comments usually (though not always) eventually get corrective upvotes: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=corrective%20upvote https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor.... This happened with your comment above. Meanwhile the off-topic meta complaint lingers on as uncollected garbage even after it has been falsified.

tmn 5y ago

Have others listened to Bret Weinstein on this subject? Thoughts? He by all accounts is credible and provides plenty of nuance for reasons to be skeptical

BJBBB 5y ago
'Nuance' is not usable as data for making decisions. 'Nuance' tends to be used in lieu of empirical data.