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Can Northvolt solve Europe’s impending electric car battery problem?
- zhdc1 5y agoMy guess: Short term, maybe. Sales projections for electric cars in Europe are likely... optimistic. Long term, yes (Northvolt and other competitors), because markets are fairly efficient at generating sufficient supply given a long enough window.
- mschuster91 5y ago> Short term, maybe. Sales projections for electric cars in Europe are likely... optimistic. Half of Europe has already announced phasing out ICE-based cars in the next 10-15 years, Audi has announced they're shifting off of ICEs. A shift towards fully electric is inevitable.
- ThomPete 5y agoI surely don't hope it's inevitable unless the come up with better fuelcell solutions.
- eru 5y agoWhat do you mean?
- ThomPete 5y agoI mean that we don't want to live in a world where the current battery technology is going to power our car fleet. That's going to be a disaster.
- eru 5y agoAlas, current fuel cells are terribly inefficient. Running cars mostly on current battery technology seems entirely feasible to me? Perhaps a bit inconvenient at times, but far from disaster. Even if the chemistry doesn't improve, we can always move to a model where you quickly swap batteries at a 'petrol station' instead of slowly charging them. Of course, a hybrid world is also entirely feasible: where most cars are electric, but some people with long range needs drive a hybrid like a Prius or even ICE-only car. (After all, from an environment point of view, 90% of people moving from ICE to electric is 90% as good as the full move. Economically, the people with the minority technology will lose out on benefits of scale, of course.)
- ThomPete 5y agoA fusion world is possible just not feasible for now just like a hybrid world isn't either. There is simply no reality based fact that indicate we can solve our transportation issues with electricity.
- zhdc1 5y ago> Half of Europe has already announced phasing out ICE-based cars in the next 10-15 years, Audi has announced they're shifting off of ICEs These remind me of EU state adherence to carbon reduction targets. I would be - very - suspicious of anything a company in this industry, or a country, promises when they have something to gain from making a target and little or nothing to lose from missing it. > A shift towards fully electric is inevitable Agreed, but keep in mind that electrification itself took 50-60 years to play out. It will eventually happen, but it will happen over several decades.
- nabla9 5y agoEU progress is on track. The carbon reduction goals adopted in 2008 for the 2020 are being met. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/20180706STO07407/eu-progress-towards-its-climate-change-goals-infographic https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/201...
- zhdc1 5y ago> EU progress is on track. The carbon reduction goals adopted in 2008 for the 2020 are being met. I was referencing the 2020 NDC targets (55% by 2030), but fair enough.
- lelanthran 5y ago> Half of Europe has already announced phasing out ICE-based cars in the next 10-15 years, Audi has announced they're shifting off of ICEs. A shift towards fully electric is inevitable. Lots of things get announced, particularly from governments and auto manufacturers.[1] Doesn't mean anything. [1] If all their (government and automakers) announcements led somewhere by now I'd be able to sleep while my car self-drove me to my vacation destination. Governments particularly are prone to be wrongly optimistic when announcing their policies.
- ChuckNorris89 5y agoThis. I can't see them meeting this deadline judging by the utter lack of new charging stations in my city, or any other city. So where are all these new EVs that everyone will soon transition to supposed to be charged? Wirelessly?
- bildung 5y agoNo clue about EU in general, but Germany starts the bidding process for 1000 charging stations along its highways in the next months (each having multiple chargers providing at least 150kW). The law for that ("SchnellLG") passed in February.
- ChuckNorris89 5y agoI meant charing stations in the cities, where people usually park their cars around the block where they live. Those are basically inexistent. What are they gonna do? Leave it overnight on the highway and walk home from there?
- speedgoose 5y agoIn my city in Europe, we have a lot of chargers in the parkings, in the streets, and in the gas stations. It may come to your city eventually. In a few years, the situation changed from a few power plugs in the corner of a parking and some street charging to hundreds of chargers in big parkings, the airport has more than a thousand, business areas hundreds, fast charger in all gas stations, and a lot of home chargers. It will scale up.
- piokoch 5y agoOne thing is announcements, second thing is reality. If nothing changes and we will not have different batteries technology moving all UK cars to electric would require "two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters the world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s copper" [1]. And this is just UK. I don't even mention other factors like charging time (during vacation time we have queues on gas stations, where fueling car lasts 2 minutes), extending abilities of electric grid to meet larger demand, fixing last mile electric network to do the same. There are some ideas like bidirectional charging, smart charging, etc. but we don't know if we any of this can be actually applied. Car manufacturers are very happy about EV cars, as they are very expensive, there are no trained non-official repair shops, parts supplirers, so people are forced to use official, overpriced repair channels, so they keep pushing them. [1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/06/20190624-uk.html https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/06/20190624-uk.html
- Retric 5y agoMining isn’t limited by what’s in the ground it’s limited by demand. For example in 2010 28,000 tons of lithium was mined in 2020 that was up to 82,000 tons a 3x increase in 10 years despite Covid. In terms of charging times, many people simply charge at home. On average EV users spend less time at fast charging stations than ICE drivers do at gas stations especially if you include time driving to a gas station. If you’re filling up everywhere you park you only need fast charging on several hundred mile trips.
- mschuster91 5y ago> If you’re filling up everywhere you park you only need fast charging on several hundred mile trips. The GP does have a point there. A lot of vacation travel in Europe happens by car - the traffic jams at the summer holidays on the route from Munich down to Slovenia and Croatia or from Munich to Italy are legendary, and this one drive and how it works out is what determines the purchase decisions for many Germans. I'd love if the railways could be used - but the network especially in the Balkans is shoddy, international booking is a nightmare, it is about 4-8x (!!!) as expensive as a car ride for a family of four... so yeah.
- jhoechtl 5y agoSure, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the power for the electric engine is coming solely out of a battery, what about hydrogen?
- Proven 5y agoWhy only Europe has this "problem"? Because the EU is the problem. BRExit fixed the battery problem for the Brits and cost the British taxpayers and consumers precisely nought.
- junon 5y agoI wonder if they can also solve the child-slavery-within-cobalt-mines problem while they're at it. https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/md1526/im_terry_collingsworth_the_human_rights_lawyer/gs6ntsl/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/md1526/im_terry_colli...
- eunos 5y agoNon cobalt battery like LFP or Sodium iron batteries then.
- junon 5y agoNorthVolt still uses Cobalt. Their process is just different. They state it clearly in the article.
- baybal2 5y agoMost of LFP cathode material manufacturing is in China, and there are few small Japanese suppliers.
- audunw 5y agoNot using cobalt for batteries doesn't solve the problem. Batteries is not the only place we use cobalt. It's used in fuel refining for instance. I really don't get this.. why do some people seem to think that not buying EVs or not using cobalt batteries will get rid of child slave labor? If anything, increasing the amount of cobalt that's produced could improve the situation. It may push produces towards more efficient and industrialized production. It might make DR Congo more wealthy. And using it in a product where people care about environmental and social costs puts more focus on the whole child labor issue (unlike fuel and metal alloys, where it's more "out of sight, out of mind")
- imtringued 5y agoIt is pretty obvious that helping your enemy become prosperous will reduce human suffering. The question is, will your enemy turn into a friend or just consider you a stupid sucker? Maybe we should do this and then assassinate the leader once the sentiment has shifted pro West. The goal isn't a better government, just a reason to "invest" into reducing human suffering.
- baybal2 5y agoNo, not for $2.75bn. At that cost they will be just repackaging Chinese, or Japanese materials, sans the cathode which they will be making, and which is the most expensive material in the battery. Almost every battery maker outside of China don't do even that, and they just package ready made cathode/anode/separators into casings.
- raxxorrax 5y agoEven for a business it is a decent sum. And they could grow with the market, since electric cars are still quite rare.
- ngrilly 5y agoWe raised much more in equity and debt in previous financing rounds :) And of course we produce our own cathode and anode for cylindrical and prismatic cells. And we're hiring by the way: https://northvolt.com/career/roles/ https://northvolt.com/career/roles/ Source: I work at Northvolt.
- WJW 5y agoJust so you know, the checkbox on the hiring page next to "Software & IT" is shaped unlike all the other checkboxes on the page and does not seem to work. (Clicking on the text does work, however)
- GreenBattery 5y agoHi, another Northvolter here! I've been doing some work on our corporate website (1). I'm not able to quickly reproduce the bug (tested in Chrome/Safari on a Macbook Pro), if you can give me some more info about your environment that'd be much appreciated. (1) not my primary responsibility, but you sometimes get to put on weird and unexpected hats at Northvolt!
- WJW 5y agoLinux with Firefox 89.0 64 bit. It displays correctly after the first load but after selecting and un-selecting it the border does not reappear correctly and looks like this: https://ibb.co/0JYQ3ML https://ibb.co/0JYQ3ML
- the_laka 5y ago"a former Tesla manager is building a battery factory" - that's it, that was the article.
- jiofih 5y agoIn europe, meaning shorter shipping routes, recycling existing batteries, and doing that using a novel hydrometallurgy process with 97% lithium recovery rate, lower emissions and a factory powered 100% from renewable energy. Plus they have $27B in orders already. You left that little part out :)
- lyschoening 5y agoThey will be able to recycle batteries, but that's not where much of their current order volume or materials come from. The article is a word salad that conflates a series of unrelated points.
- kzrdude 5y agoNorthern Sweden is on the very fringe of Europe, though, so still far away.
- oakesm9 5y agoGreat video interview with the founder of Northvolt on Fully Charged: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOHjIav97HM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOHjIav97HM
- Malush 5y agoThese are only alternatives, a complete replacement .... I doubt
- jillesvangurp 5y agoNot by itself, we'll need more than 1 factory. But the whole "impending battery problem" is in itself a bit of a misleading title. Demand for batteries is likely to go through the roof in the next decades. That's not a problem but an enormous opportunity that companies like Northvolt are capitalizing on. There are many challenges related to battery production and even more companies competing on solving those problems. Sourcing materials like lithium, cobalt, etc. in a sustainable way is one of those challenges and there are multiple companies working on that. It's a solvable problem. It could be as simple as just forcing companies to source responsibly and only work with suppliers that have some really strict policies against using child labor.
- lm28469 5y ago> It could be as simple as just forcing companies to source responsibly and only work with suppliers that have some really strict policies against using child labor. We can't even do that with coffee, water or palm oil (just to cite these). Cloth/shoes companies are still using child/slaves, most tech product still contain materials mined in very shady mines by kids/slaves in Africa. "it's simple", "it's just a matter of", "we'll fix it in the future", "it's just an opportunity to find solutions", this is all wishful thinking.
- Acinyx 5y agoWe can if we want to, but right now it is totally voluntary and so left up to brands that want to look good, but also not pay too much extra. If a block like the US or EU suddenly puts a whole lot of strong regulation on the coffee market, it likely will result in 90% coffee being problem free, but also costing 2-3 times as much and it just isn't as much a priority to be worth that.
- lm28469 5y agoAnd this is exactly why nothing will change, money trumps everything else.
- nickik 5y ago
- DrBazza 5y agoIt’s not the only factory though, there are others, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-56711116 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-56711116
- nickik 5y agoMost people don't understand how many others: https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/5ea705b50670db414f3753e5/1611771922054-KC64G0SN26242EEEX35D/2021-jan-GigaFactory-Roland-mini.jpg?content-type=image%2Fjpeg https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/5ea705b50670db414... Can't find higher quality right now but the data should be more or less correct.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jcfrei 5y agohttps://www.cleanthinking.de/wp-content/uploads/Batterie-Gigafactories-Europa-1024x753.jpg https://www.cleanthinking.de/wp-content/uploads/Batterie-Gig...
- consumer451 5y agoI got a 403 from that link, but found this other source: https://www.orovel.net/insights/li-on-battery-gigafactories-in-europe-january-2021 https://www.orovel.net/insights/li-on-battery-gigafactories-... edit: found OP https://twitter.com/zennroland/status/1353821694411026434 https://twitter.com/zennroland/status/1353821694411026434
- DrBazza 5y agoNice info graphic. I didn’t realise quite how many factories there will be.
- harg 5y ago> with the capacity to produce up to 60 gigawatt hours of power per year Maybe a nitpick but it's interesting how often people confuse power with energy/storage. "gigawatt hours" is a measure of energy, not power. From my understanding Northvolt is manufacturing batteries, so the "60 gigawatt hours" figure is referring to amount of battery storage they're making. If they were generating power it could refer to how much energy they'll generate over a year, but I don't think that's what it is. I think it's important to get these details right as it can change the meaning significantly Also > building a battery factory so large it would fill 100 football pitches and produce enough power to light 6bn light bulbs a year. Is the factory generating power? How does the factory produce this much power? Or is it referring to the energy stored by batteries it's producing?
- jrockway 5y agoPower is the wrong unit to measure battery manufacturing capacity in, but "per year" technically brings energy back to power. It's important to realize that scientific terms don't really mean anything outside of science. Calling this power is like someone saying they have the flu, when they actually have a cold. It's wrong, but they weren't writing a scientific paper, they were just telling you why they stayed inside all weekend. It's important to understand that language is used that way, so you don't get too confused.
- sam_0123 5y agoYes, a lot of people say 'power' when they're talking about 'electricity' loosely. Your point about "per year" technically going back to power is only applicable if you actually do the x GWh/per year maths. It's common to refer to energy production capacity as 'y kWh per year' (even though the ratio of those two components gives you the average power over that time period).
- tialaramex 5y agoThe medical terminology for "flu" is Influenza-like Illness or ILI. Under normal circumstances most ILI during winter is actually Influenza (you can randomly select patients experiencing "flu" into a study that checks if they have the Influenza virus), while most ILI during summer is not. For most purposes knowing if it's actually Influenza isn't diagnostically important anyway, use medication to treat symptoms, stay home, rest, seek help if you don't feel better in a few days. Crazy how much of the world doesn't make this trivial for all residents - not just the US, but even many countries with some type of mandatory "sick leave" policy don't actually give all workers full pay to stay home with flu - encouraging them to instead go to work and get more people sick. And this normalises associated social expectations which also have negative consequences. If I work when I'm sick, why wouldn't I go to a bar, or visit friends?
- taneq 5y agoLet’s see what Betteridge has to say about it.
- geokon 5y agoUsually when companies talk about an "enormous environmental toll" i get the feeling the business case must be weak. But giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming the tech is legit and it all makes economic sense, why Norway? And if distance to market is such a crucial factor (b/c it sounds like the may business will be battery recycling), why not the geographic south? Albania also runs on 100% hydro and I'm sure the wages are a tiny fraction of Norway (not to mention the environmental/bureaucratic issues) I noticed Northvolt employees are here, so maybe they can fill out the fluff a bit. Why Northvolt and not Southvolt?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- sofixa 5y agoConsidering the precise location ( in Sweden btw, and not just anywhere, in Northern Sweden, close to the Arctic), i presume the outside temperature matters somehow and having constantly low temperatures outside will help with cooling or similar. Totally uneducated guess, but northern Scandinavia (and Finland) have already been used for datacenters for precisely those temperatures, and if it didn't matter it could be anywhere else with a decent "green" energy mix, like France, southern Sweden, Austria, etc.
- worldsayshi 5y agoI've heard that the reason is the abundant availability of green energy from hydro power.
- cinntaile 5y agoThe north of Sweden has abundant and reliable energy production indeed, the south of Sweden is struggling to meet its demands so companies that need a lot of energy don't want to take that risk. Work is being done to fix that, such as having more interconnections with the rest of Europe but it'll take a long time before it's fixed. Also Albania simply doesn't have the infrastructure and the same access to a highly educated workforce that Sweden has.
- lifeisstillgood 5y agoI am always interested in the second-order effects. If the automotive industry is 50% EV by say 2035/2040, what other industries does that affect? In other words, if I cannot hope to raise 2BN but still want to help save the world, what start-ups should I start? I am thinking things like every parking space in a city will soon come with a parking meter / charge point / embedded wifi-mesh network. Other industries will piggy-back on the new battery standard(s) - my father-in-law just picked up a battery powered lawn mower ! Having one battery pack / interface for many home goods will be almost as transformative.
- imtringued 5y ago>what other industries does that affect? It would affect electricity usage by refineries.
- solarkraft 5y ago> but still want to help save the world Not sure how much of an impact you’re planning to have, but EVs are still fairly resource intensive in most metrics, especially manufacturing and space usage in cities. One option might be to help reducing those, by conceptualizing lighter vehicles, or a way to have fewer standing around (autonomous driving). Another option would be looking beyond electric cars. Almost any thing requires electricity, so improving its generation would have an immense impact. “Cars as we know them, but electric” is probably not the optimal future. Maybe there are better ways to get around. Besides those far out ideas and considering your battery interface point: Maybe it’d be possible to standardize some batteries for smaller vehicles/appliances. I’m also surprised there doesn’t seem to be an after-market for EV battery packs (as in: a new pack for your EV) yet (fun fact: I think Renault has DRM on its batteries).
- specialist 5y ago> conceptualizing lighter vehicles Horace Dediu (Asymco) advocates "micromobility". I still don't really know what all that entails. Bikes, scooters, hoverboards, ...? I've been binging on his misc podcasts for a while. I really like how he asks questions, does analysis. For instance: ~1.1b automobiles today, ~1.8b by 2050 (IIRC). Average lifetime of ICE vehicle is 30 yrs. So getting to carbon neutral just by replacing the current fleet won't happen fast enough. We'll need alternatives to automobiles, like public transit and scooters. https://micromobility.io https://micromobility.io
- hamoid 5y ago> with green energy hubs like Finland and Norway In which way is Finland a green energy hub? If I look at [1] and [2] I see that in 2019 Finland's energy use was 55% fossil based. Sweden's was 31%. Coal was 5.10% for Finland, 0.20% for Sweden. ps. I see there's worse... Germany 77.42% fossils, coal 17.53%. Still, I never had an impression Finland is a green energy hub (no waterfalls, no sun in winter). It is a green hub though. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/finland https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/finland [2] https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/sweden https://ourworldindata.org/energy/country/sweden
- w-m 5y agoThese energy numbers seem to include fossil fuel use for energy used in things like heating and transportation. In the context of the article (battery storage), I think Finland is referred to being a hub of green _electricity_. Finlands electricity came from 18.64% fossil fuels in 2019, as per the same page. And Germany's electricity came from 47.43% fossil fuels.