26 ms·

Peloton's $3k treadmill now comes with surprise 'subscription fee'

157 points by adsche 5y ago

aliasEli 5y ago
Hardware changes slower than software. Some very influential software companies (e.g. Microsoft, Adobe) switched to a subscription model some time ago. From a marketing perspective it seems to make sense. If your customers pay a lot of money to buy your product and don't hesitate to connect it to the internet, they are probably wealthy but not very intelligent. Ideal marks for a subscription service.
- darkcha0s 5y ago
  What kind of weird ass psychoanalysis is this? People who pay money for products and connect them to the internet are stupid and have money?
  - tnzm 5y ago
    Yes.
  - sellyme 5y ago
    > People who pay money for products and connect them to the internet are stupid and have money? If you can buy a $3k treadmill, you have money (although about $3k less of it, in fairness). If you think your treadmill needs to be connected to the internet, you are not particularly intelligent. Neither of these are controversial takes. We've had enough experience with IoT devices being absolutely god-awful to know this.
    - anonfornoreason 5y ago
      the whole point of the product is to connect it to the internet and participate in a remote class, along with other gamification features that encourage using the product and staying fit. people buy it for this reason, generally speaking.
      - sellyme 5y ago
        > the whole point of the product is to connect it to the internet Correct, this is one of the reasons why it is not a very good product. Its entire selling point is detrimental.
- anm89 5y ago
  It's funny, this is the basis of many Nigerian scams. Make the scam as dumb as possible so you are guaranteed that the people who respond are self selecting as the most oblivious people in society. Pelton has managed to identify the exact set of people who are rich, oblivious, and like fitness.
mimixco 5y ago
Since Peloton has sold subscriptions from day 1, this probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The worst part of this story is that the device killed a child and they're using that as the reason to collect monthly ransom. It sounds like a Sopranos episode: Make your monthly payments or we might hurt your kid.
- jbigelow76 5y ago
  Yeah, that's pretty fucked up. Peloton provided a comment but didn't indicate why the TreadLock code couldn't be provided without the subscription, obviously because there is no defensible technical reason they couldn't do so.
- pb77 5y ago
  Am i missing something, if a treadmill has a subscription, the kid can still run on it right?, is it some kind of fingerprint or face authentication that would stop a kid from running.
  - detaro 5y ago
    If you have a subscription, you can set a password.
    - CitrusFruits 5y ago
      I mean, they gotta be able to make a free account SKU though that has nothing but "Just Run" enabled. On the flip side, I wonder who bought a Peloton treadmill and didn't intend on getting the subscription service. Not that it makes it right, but I imagine most people already pay for it and the number of affected users is quite low.
      - detaro 5y ago
        "Intend on" when they bought it, sure. Wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people found they don't actually want to stick with the subscription - although then admittedly returning it and getting something else sounds like a good deal, even if it's hassle.
dannyw 5y ago
This is completely unacceptable. This is like your fully-purchased electric vehicle refusing to start anymore unless you pay $300/month.
iscekic 5y ago
Even if this was made possible by their T&C, it must suck as a customer. "Hey you know that feature you bought and have been using? 40$/mo or it doesn't work anymore =)" I wonder if customer protection laws in the US can force them to revert their update.
- kbos87 5y ago
  Agree. Getting too hung up on what the T&C say is missing the point. You can put whatever you want in a contract, but if it’s very unpalatable to your customers, whether or not you can legally do it will be a moot point.
chaircher 5y ago
Such a stupid move even from a pure business point of view. People who can fork out $3k for a treadmill (as well as have the space and time to use it) are people who are in a good position to defend themselves from this sort of bullshit
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  No need for the courts: "As a reminder, under the terms of our voluntary recall, Tread+ owners can return their Tread+ for a full refund by contacting Member support," Though who would want to own that death trap is beyond me.
Barrin92 5y ago
I mean the entire business model of the company seems to be to depart rich people from their money in obscene ways, so that move does not seem unexpected. I generally do not understand the thought process of buying a tablet glued to a treadmill for three thousand dollars. That's like what, a decade of gym membership
- ErikVandeWater 5y ago
  I generally agree. But owners would argue that a $3k treadmill that's used consistently is a much better value than a $500 treadmill that's used only its first month of ownership. I'd add their are things that are much more expensive people spend money on that are much less likely to result in happiness. Buying a fast-depreciating Mercedes or BMW for example.
  - anthonygd 5y ago
    It's just important that people figure out what makes them happy, and what they're buying. I have no issue spending $60k+ on a car because I like to drive and a nice car makes me happy every time I get in. There is no way I'd buy a Peloton though: I absolutely hate all fitness classes. I'd rather spend $3k on dumb equipment than $1k on "smart" equipment with classes.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- balfirevic 5y ago
  > I generally do not understand the thought process of buying a tablet glued to a treadmill for three thousand dollars. That's like what, a decade of gym membership Do you not understand why they would rather buy a treadmill than train at the gym, or why they don't buy a cheaper treadmill?
  - bagacrap 5y ago
    I don't understand why they wouldn't buy a different expensive treadmill if they don't want the classes
wrycoder 5y ago
Corporations love the steady revenue of the subscription model. Look at Blackrock buying up all the housing and renting it out. The idea being that people won’t own anything except (maybe) their clothes. Well, certainly a lot less trouble for the kids when you kick off.
- jrsj 5y ago
  I don’t expect that trend to reverse itself given it benefits the people who have the most say in our politics. I’m just waiting for them to go ahead and implement a privatized social credit score too at this point.
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    Credit scores are already privatized so why not? Citizen and Palantir could get in on it with Equifax. They'd just need to incentivize others to do the reporting of good/bad social actions.
    - jrsj 5y ago
      Plus social media & potentially even ISPs looking to sell user data, I wouldn’t be surprised if every aspect of your online life is fed into a system like this. And simply hiding your traffic won’t be good enough because not using these things would be considered abnormal — not having active (and well behaved) social media presence could be a big detriment to a score like this. Something that employers are likely to look at too. On the one hand I appreciate the stuff a company like Apple does around privacy, but on the other they comply with whatever laws are in place in a given country. So we have to hope the state of our democracy improves because effectively becoming a one-party state changes the game — then we actually have to worry the government will encourage or mandate dystopian systems like this. Good actors in the private sector won’t be good enough to mitigate if that happens.
      - jrsj 5y ago
        Somewhat related I also wouldn’t be surprised if within the next couple of decades all driving related data is being monitored and aggregated, so that could also be used to build sort of a social / behavioral profile on someone and not just feed into self driving AIs and insurance data
randshift 5y ago
The title of this article is somewhat silly to me. The subscription fee has never been a surprise to anyone who's owned one. The point of a Peloton is to do the classes, either for running or spinning, which require a subscription. It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription based features and specifically intend to use it without the subscription. Just buy a similar treadmill from another company.
- jen20 5y ago
  > subscription. It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription based features and specifically intend to use it without the subscription. What if they go out of business?
  - nradov 5y ago
    I suppose that's always a risk but Peloton is in a strong financial position. They're highly unlikely to go out of business within the expected lifespan of a treadmill.
    - altacc 5y ago
      Currently performance is not a guarantee of long term outcomes, many companies have appeared to be in a strong financial position and then suddenly collapsed. As it is Peloton is currently running at a loss. You also have to factor in acquisitions, which occasionally have led to a loss of support for devices.
- ErikVandeWater 5y ago
  The title is poorly worded. But intentionally bricking customers' devices post-purchase to require a subscription is an absolutely insane decision, especially given that the reasoning they give for it is a reminder that they just killed a child.
- _jal 5y ago
  > It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription I think you could have stopped there. The business model appears to be: sell an expensive hostage, justify ramping up recurring ransoms by threatening to kill the hostage.
cblconfederate 5y ago
$39.99 is way too small for their target audience. It looks like a crowd who are more in love with the idea of exercising rather than exercise itself. Charge those vain addicted people to death, more like $399/mo for starters , the basic package
napolux 5y ago
"surprise"
deleted 5y ago
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rkalla 5y ago
This seems like a "pout" move... get blasted with a class-action, so blast everyone in the face with this 'safety and goodness' fee. No other solution to keeping toddlers off of a treadmill with a giant touch screen? Maybe a simple math question or 'confirm your birthday'? No no... gotta cash-grab to pay for the lawsuit. Classy.
- sunshineforever 5y ago
  It reminds me of Google charging 12.99 a month for the ability to darken the screen in YouTube.
  - bathtub365 5y ago
    Do they charge $12.99 a month for this feature? I can’t find it
    - ptudan 5y ago
      They paywall random features behind youtube premium, I guess that's another one. Engineers hate these things because they know the relative minimal efforts required, and that the line of free vs premium feature is completely arbitrary.
      - dannyw 5y ago
        It's market segmentation AND lack of ads. Lack of ads + slightly nicer experience.
    - sithlord 5y ago
      its part of youtube premium
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      This feature is part of the YouTube Red subscription. Which doesn't really add that much in addition, aside from partial ad removal and video downloads, all completely free on PC.
jerf 5y ago
'The company has cited "safety and well-being" as a reason for introducing the membership fee.' I've noticed the "fake because" lately seems to be getting more and more brazen from corporations. This is about the third or fourth "for your safety and convenience we're helping ourselves to more of your money" I've seen in the last couple months, and unfortunately all the other ones I've seen are for products or services I actually have. But I for one am just grateful that we have so many companies and governments willing to take more of our money, spend less of theirs, extend wait times, reduce services, and just generally do less for more money for our safety and convenience. Imagine how unsafe we'd be if they weren't taking so much money and actually provided service. What a bloodbath it would be.
- api 5y ago
  Running with a heavy wallet is dangerous. You're more likely to lose your balance and any fall would be that much worse due to the added weight. Peloton is helpfully making your wallet lighter to ensure a safe running experience. Seriously though: if something doesn't really need it, any form of Internet-enabling is something I see as an anti-feature and now avoid at all costs. Internet enabled features or apps means "it spies on you, will change or break needlessly due to an update, or will find a way to extract rent." I will pay more for something without Wifi or (worse) a fucking cellular modem. I'm worried about the ability to buy a non-Internet-enabled car though. I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf and am looking into upgrading its battery. The car is otherwise absolutely perfect. It just needs more range per charge.
  - voakbasda 5y ago
    Network enabled hardware is a plague. I am a senior embedded engineer doing consulting for companies around the world. It’s all utter crap, and no one should trust any of it. Ever. I am not exaggerating or joking in the slightest. I will never buy appliances, cars, tools, vacuum cleaners, or any other device with any kind of networking functionality. This feature will be used in the future to lock you out of your own hardware, spy on you, serve as a vector for attacks, to restrict its functionality, and to steal that which you have already paid to own. Not if, when. I drive an ‘83 Toyota pickup, and I will never give it up. Modern cars are trash on multiple levels.
slowhand09 5y ago
Pelaton - I foresee a class action suit in your future. If this stands, next you'll have an automobile that is bricked after an "update".
sys_64738 5y ago
How can a lump of hardware require a subscription to work? I've been in a coma for 20 years.
- api 5y ago
  Every company wants recurring revenue: https://www.datagubbe.se/endofownership/ https://www.datagubbe.se/endofownership/
  - sys_64738 5y ago
    Why don't we have this with computers? Surely we're depriving Lenovo and Apple of such revenue if we use the computer and don't pay a monthly fee? This whole sub thing is nuts.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      We do, it's basically Google and Apple's business model with Android [1] and iOS -- they're just better at hiding the monthly fee. [1] Yes you can have non-Google subscribed Android devices, doesn't mean that Google is banking on all but an insignificant portion of users doing that.
    - generalizations 5y ago
      Microsoft has been testing the concept with Office 365...just you wait.
      - sys_64738 5y ago
        No HW involve though?
        generalizations 5y ago
        I was thinking more, that they rent access to the operating system, and push hard for locked down secure boot so Linux is hard to install.
bink 5y ago
The article uses the term "Just Run" several times but never bothers to explain what "Just Run" is. If it's the ability to use the treadmill without a subscription, well, that sucks but I can't imagine anyone spending $3k on one of these without even using the tablet. No one should have to do it to use the device but Peletons are actually relatively simple to jail break.
everdrive 5y ago
Every service, or product that relies on a service can either be taken from you, or have its terms changed. You'll have no recourse, or else your recourse will be a lengthy class action lawsuit, which may still result in an unsatisfactory resolution for the consumer.
altacc 5y ago
> "In our ongoing work to ensure our products are even safer ... we released Tread Lock, a four-digit passcode to secure Tread+ against unauthorized access. Unfortunately, Tread Lock is not yet available without a Peloton Membership..." This is ludicrous. I'm intrigued why it is so difficult to add a 4 digit passcode to a device that regularly receives software updates. It seems that bricking the device was an easier fix than a bit of coding. One of the benefits of IOT is the ability to provide regular updates & "improvements", however the first benefit of IOT is to earn as much money as possible for the suppliers and that typically steers product decisions.
- masklinn 5y ago
  > I'm intrigued why it is so difficult to add a 4 digit passcode to a device that regularly receives software updates. It probably is not, but that was a great excuse to make users pay for non-trivial features instead of just advanced.
s1artibartfast 5y ago
Before people go on a reddit like hate trail, it should be noted is in parallel with a full recall and reimbursement of all the treadmills
- pavon 5y ago
  Yeah, since they were pressured by the government into issuing a recall, they figured it would be a good time to shed customers that don't provide them recurring income which will offset the cost of the recall.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    How does shedding non-paying customers offset any costs? What does it mean to shed a customer that payed for a device and you have no ongoing relation with?
- rchaud 5y ago
  How do you return a giant piece of metal? Do they send a truck to pick it up? Who pays for that?
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Peleton pays for it all. They send a company to your house and pick up the device. Alternatively, They will pay and schedule a company to come to your house and relocate the device somewhere away from children and pets. https://www.onepeloton.com/press/articles/treadplus-faqs https://www.onepeloton.com/press/articles/treadplus-faqs
    - cwkoss 5y ago
      Are some portion of sold pelotons "used", without disclosing this to customers? Seems like their customers would not be happy if that was the case. Conversely, would be extremely wasteful if they don't. What do they do with returned equipment?
lokar 5y ago
A possible explanation is that they need/want to address th safety issue quickly, and the way to do that is a software change to something that is subscription only. They may well break out the PIN/safety feature later to not require a subscription.
tomp 5y ago
> As a reminder, under the terms of our voluntary recall, Tread+ owners can return their Tread+ for a full refund by contacting Member support I really don’t see the problem. You don’t have to like it, you can just return it (presumably getting the purchase money back). Vote with your wallet!
- AuryGlenz 5y ago
  That would depend on how easy their return process is. I can’t imagine it’s easy to ship back.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Their return process is you say you want to return it, then you schedule a return date, and they send two guys out to box it up and remove it from your home. I'm not sure it could be any easier.
wly_cdgr 5y ago
Wow, an IoT company doing ransomware? That's crazy. No one could possibly have predicted that this would quickly become commonplace
sunshineforever 5y ago
I think this is horrible and I feel bad for the customers, but maybe this will make people think twice about buying a 3000 treadmill in the future.
matco11 5y ago
I am confused. I almost bought the Peloton treadmill months ago and it was pretty clear that the $40 subscription was needed and was on top. To me, the $40 subscription for treadmill is not new news
tw04 5y ago
I want to clarify because a lot of people seem to be confused about what's happening here. "Just run" is tracking your metrics. You can STILL use the treadmill without it, you just won't be getting information on the run like your pace, calories burned, power output, etc. The treadmill isn't bricked, it's just not providing metrics. If you have a garmin watch or insert fitness tracker you can still get info from that. I can understand why people would be annoyed by this change, and I would hope they add the functionality back in the future. But everyone saying it's "bricked" needs to take a deep breath.
- rchaud 5y ago
  In other words, bricked by the vendor themselves.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    Bricked implies its as useful as a brick, but it still functions as a treadmill
- pentae 5y ago
  Yeah, seems totally reasonable to not have metrics after spending $2k-$3k on hardware. /s
  - tw04 5y ago
    I guess it's a good thing I didn't say it was totally reasonable to remove metrics from the treadmill. Quite literally stated I understand why people are frustrated and I hope they add them back. Didn't even need a /s because I was trying to actually contribute something useful to the comments section.
- lordloki 5y ago
  I don't think you are correct. The entire point is to prevent treadmill use so children cannot run it. If it only prevented the viewing of run stats how would that keep kids from activating it?
qq4 5y ago
What's next, a kettlebell bolted to the floor until I agree to a monthly subscription? I can't imagine paying this much money to _just_ run. Okay, run and have someone encourage me. I get that they're successful, and lots of people seem to want a treadmill or bike that doesn't move, but I don't personally understand it. I'm starting to feel old fashioned with my workout technology, shoes and shorts.
- kbos87 5y ago
  I’m guessing they’ll use electromagnets to keep it glued to its base station unless your subscription is paid.
rchaud 5y ago
Peloton introduced a 4-digit passcode to improve product safety. But the passcode only works on their $39.99/mo. subscription tier. Give SaaS business models an inch and they'll take a mile. Can we go back to 1995 when $9.99 VHS exercise tapes were still an option?
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Can we go back to 1995 when $9.99 VHS exercise tapes were still an option? Exercise DVDs in that price range (same nominal price, substantially lower real price than $9.99 in 1995 dollars) are readily available and DVD players are cheap.
kbos87 5y ago
What isn’t clear to me is whether Peloton intends for this to be a permanent end state - that you need to buy a subscription to use “Just Run” - or if it’s a temporary state (we introduced the locking feature, made a dumb decision to require an account, and accounts are tied to paid subscriptions, and thus until we unwind that, here’s a few free months.) The former would be absolutely reprehensible. It’s ransomware, in the name of a death caused by your product. If it’s the latter, they absolutely blew it while communicating this. The likely scenario to me is somewhere inbetween. They are seeing how people react to this and were intentionally ambiguous to give themselves an escape hatch if there’s backlash.
- mleonhard 5y ago
  Peloton probably also wants to collect the valuable behavior data of users that are not currently signing in.
lykahb 5y ago
Until the regulators intervene, the trend of turning product ownership into subscription would continue. Makers of the locked down smart products are also opposing the right to repair. I wish it were a common knowledge that proprietary IoT devices are related to planned obsolescence, and therefore are bad for environment. The climate and environment activists have a stronger voice than consumer rights or privacy activists. It would be nice to join forces and lobby laws against this kind of predatory behavior.
deleted 5y ago
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tibbydudeza 5y ago
Smart move from Peloton - TAAS (Treadmill As A Service).
rkagerer 5y ago
Could someone explain why people are still buying these instead of competing treadmills? Do they have some kind of killer feature?
- dexterdog 5y ago
  The killer feature is marketing and content for your instagram account
SavantIdiot 5y ago
Anyone who is remotely tech-savvy has been on the continuum from skeptical of "free" cloud-based services, to downright paranoid. Two decades ago the joke was your fridge would stop working unless you paid for a microsoft upgrade. Obviously satire, it did carry an obvious warning that cloud-enable devices are owned by the cloud and not the purchaser. And here we are now with Peloton bricking a treadmill. To reference a cliche, I think Peloton turned up the heat a little two quickly and the frog jumped out of the pot of water. But they will learn to go more slowly in the future, the same way that we see people lazily subscribing to multiple $5.99 streaming TV channels, ultimately costing more than cable.

157 points by adsche 5y ago

Hardware changes slower than software. Some very influential software companies (e.g. Microsoft, Adobe) switched to a subscription model some time ago. From a marketing perspective it seems to make sense. If your customers pay a lot of money to buy your product and don't hesitate to connect it to the internet, they are probably wealthy but not very intelligent. Ideal marks for a subscription service.

darkcha0s 5y ago
What kind of weird ass psychoanalysis is this? People who pay money for products and connect them to the internet are stupid and have money?
- tnzm 5y ago
  Yes.
- sellyme 5y ago
  > People who pay money for products and connect them to the internet are stupid and have money? If you can buy a $3k treadmill, you have money (although about $3k less of it, in fairness). If you think your treadmill needs to be connected to the internet, you are not particularly intelligent. Neither of these are controversial takes. We've had enough experience with IoT devices being absolutely god-awful to know this.
  - anonfornoreason 5y ago
    the whole point of the product is to connect it to the internet and participate in a remote class, along with other gamification features that encourage using the product and staying fit. people buy it for this reason, generally speaking.
    - sellyme 5y ago
      > the whole point of the product is to connect it to the internet Correct, this is one of the reasons why it is not a very good product. Its entire selling point is detrimental.
anm89 5y ago
It's funny, this is the basis of many Nigerian scams. Make the scam as dumb as possible so you are guaranteed that the people who respond are self selecting as the most oblivious people in society. Pelton has managed to identify the exact set of people who are rich, oblivious, and like fitness.

mimixco 5y ago

Since Peloton has sold subscriptions from day 1, this probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. The worst part of this story is that the device killed a child and they're using that as the reason to collect monthly ransom. It sounds like a Sopranos episode: Make your monthly payments or we might hurt your kid.

jbigelow76 5y ago
Yeah, that's pretty fucked up. Peloton provided a comment but didn't indicate why the TreadLock code couldn't be provided without the subscription, obviously because there is no defensible technical reason they couldn't do so.
pb77 5y ago
Am i missing something, if a treadmill has a subscription, the kid can still run on it right?, is it some kind of fingerprint or face authentication that would stop a kid from running.
- detaro 5y ago
  If you have a subscription, you can set a password.
  - CitrusFruits 5y ago
    I mean, they gotta be able to make a free account SKU though that has nothing but "Just Run" enabled. On the flip side, I wonder who bought a Peloton treadmill and didn't intend on getting the subscription service. Not that it makes it right, but I imagine most people already pay for it and the number of affected users is quite low.
    - detaro 5y ago
      "Intend on" when they bought it, sure. Wouldn't be surprised if quite a few people found they don't actually want to stick with the subscription - although then admittedly returning it and getting something else sounds like a good deal, even if it's hassle.

dannyw 5y ago

This is completely unacceptable. This is like your fully-purchased electric vehicle refusing to start anymore unless you pay $300/month.

iscekic 5y ago

Even if this was made possible by their T&C, it must suck as a customer. "Hey you know that feature you bought and have been using? 40$/mo or it doesn't work anymore =)" I wonder if customer protection laws in the US can force them to revert their update.

kbos87 5y ago
Agree. Getting too hung up on what the T&C say is missing the point. You can put whatever you want in a contract, but if it’s very unpalatable to your customers, whether or not you can legally do it will be a moot point.

chaircher 5y ago

Such a stupid move even from a pure business point of view. People who can fork out $3k for a treadmill (as well as have the space and time to use it) are people who are in a good position to defend themselves from this sort of bullshit

scoopertrooper 5y ago
No need for the courts: "As a reminder, under the terms of our voluntary recall, Tread+ owners can return their Tread+ for a full refund by contacting Member support," Though who would want to own that death trap is beyond me.

Barrin92 5y ago

I mean the entire business model of the company seems to be to depart rich people from their money in obscene ways, so that move does not seem unexpected. I generally do not understand the thought process of buying a tablet glued to a treadmill for three thousand dollars. That's like what, a decade of gym membership

ErikVandeWater 5y ago
I generally agree. But owners would argue that a $3k treadmill that's used consistently is a much better value than a $500 treadmill that's used only its first month of ownership. I'd add their are things that are much more expensive people spend money on that are much less likely to result in happiness. Buying a fast-depreciating Mercedes or BMW for example.
- anthonygd 5y ago
  It's just important that people figure out what makes them happy, and what they're buying. I have no issue spending $60k+ on a car because I like to drive and a nice car makes me happy every time I get in. There is no way I'd buy a Peloton though: I absolutely hate all fitness classes. I'd rather spend $3k on dumb equipment than $1k on "smart" equipment with classes.
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balfirevic 5y ago
> I generally do not understand the thought process of buying a tablet glued to a treadmill for three thousand dollars. That's like what, a decade of gym membership Do you not understand why they would rather buy a treadmill than train at the gym, or why they don't buy a cheaper treadmill?
- bagacrap 5y ago
  I don't understand why they wouldn't buy a different expensive treadmill if they don't want the classes

wrycoder 5y ago

Corporations love the steady revenue of the subscription model. Look at Blackrock buying up all the housing and renting it out. The idea being that people won’t own anything except (maybe) their clothes. Well, certainly a lot less trouble for the kids when you kick off.

jrsj 5y ago
I don’t expect that trend to reverse itself given it benefits the people who have the most say in our politics. I’m just waiting for them to go ahead and implement a privatized social credit score too at this point.
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Credit scores are already privatized so why not? Citizen and Palantir could get in on it with Equifax. They'd just need to incentivize others to do the reporting of good/bad social actions.
  - jrsj 5y ago
    Plus social media & potentially even ISPs looking to sell user data, I wouldn’t be surprised if every aspect of your online life is fed into a system like this. And simply hiding your traffic won’t be good enough because not using these things would be considered abnormal — not having active (and well behaved) social media presence could be a big detriment to a score like this. Something that employers are likely to look at too. On the one hand I appreciate the stuff a company like Apple does around privacy, but on the other they comply with whatever laws are in place in a given country. So we have to hope the state of our democracy improves because effectively becoming a one-party state changes the game — then we actually have to worry the government will encourage or mandate dystopian systems like this. Good actors in the private sector won’t be good enough to mitigate if that happens.
    - jrsj 5y ago
      Somewhat related I also wouldn’t be surprised if within the next couple of decades all driving related data is being monitored and aggregated, so that could also be used to build sort of a social / behavioral profile on someone and not just feed into self driving AIs and insurance data

randshift 5y ago

The title of this article is somewhat silly to me. The subscription fee has never been a surprise to anyone who's owned one. The point of a Peloton is to do the classes, either for running or spinning, which require a subscription. It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription based features and specifically intend to use it without the subscription. Just buy a similar treadmill from another company.

jen20 5y ago
> subscription. It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription based features and specifically intend to use it without the subscription. What if they go out of business?
- nradov 5y ago
  I suppose that's always a risk but Peloton is in a strong financial position. They're highly unlikely to go out of business within the expected lifespan of a treadmill.
  - altacc 5y ago
    Currently performance is not a guarantee of long term outcomes, many companies have appeared to be in a strong financial position and then suddenly collapsed. As it is Peloton is currently running at a loss. You also have to factor in acquisitions, which occasionally have led to a loss of support for devices.
ErikVandeWater 5y ago
The title is poorly worded. But intentionally bricking customers' devices post-purchase to require a subscription is an absolutely insane decision, especially given that the reasoning they give for it is a reminder that they just killed a child.
_jal 5y ago
> It would be silly to buy a premium device who's point is to use the subscription I think you could have stopped there. The business model appears to be: sell an expensive hostage, justify ramping up recurring ransoms by threatening to kill the hostage.

cblconfederate 5y ago

$39.99 is way too small for their target audience. It looks like a crowd who are more in love with the idea of exercising rather than exercise itself. Charge those vain addicted people to death, more like $399/mo for starters , the basic package

napolux 5y ago

"surprise"

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rkalla 5y ago

This seems like a "pout" move... get blasted with a class-action, so blast everyone in the face with this 'safety and goodness' fee. No other solution to keeping toddlers off of a treadmill with a giant touch screen? Maybe a simple math question or 'confirm your birthday'? No no... gotta cash-grab to pay for the lawsuit. Classy.

sunshineforever 5y ago
It reminds me of Google charging 12.99 a month for the ability to darken the screen in YouTube.
- bathtub365 5y ago
  Do they charge $12.99 a month for this feature? I can’t find it
  - ptudan 5y ago
    They paywall random features behind youtube premium, I guess that's another one. Engineers hate these things because they know the relative minimal efforts required, and that the line of free vs premium feature is completely arbitrary.
    - dannyw 5y ago
      It's market segmentation AND lack of ads. Lack of ads + slightly nicer experience.
  - sithlord 5y ago
    its part of youtube premium
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    This feature is part of the YouTube Red subscription. Which doesn't really add that much in addition, aside from partial ad removal and video downloads, all completely free on PC.

jerf 5y ago

'The company has cited "safety and well-being" as a reason for introducing the membership fee.' I've noticed the "fake because" lately seems to be getting more and more brazen from corporations. This is about the third or fourth "for your safety and convenience we're helping ourselves to more of your money" I've seen in the last couple months, and unfortunately all the other ones I've seen are for products or services I actually have. But I for one am just grateful that we have so many companies and governments willing to take more of our money, spend less of theirs, extend wait times, reduce services, and just generally do less for more money for our safety and convenience. Imagine how unsafe we'd be if they weren't taking so much money and actually provided service. What a bloodbath it would be.

api 5y ago
Running with a heavy wallet is dangerous. You're more likely to lose your balance and any fall would be that much worse due to the added weight. Peloton is helpfully making your wallet lighter to ensure a safe running experience. Seriously though: if something doesn't really need it, any form of Internet-enabling is something I see as an anti-feature and now avoid at all costs. Internet enabled features or apps means "it spies on you, will change or break needlessly due to an update, or will find a way to extract rent." I will pay more for something without Wifi or (worse) a fucking cellular modem. I'm worried about the ability to buy a non-Internet-enabled car though. I have a 2013 Nissan Leaf and am looking into upgrading its battery. The car is otherwise absolutely perfect. It just needs more range per charge.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  Network enabled hardware is a plague. I am a senior embedded engineer doing consulting for companies around the world. It’s all utter crap, and no one should trust any of it. Ever. I am not exaggerating or joking in the slightest. I will never buy appliances, cars, tools, vacuum cleaners, or any other device with any kind of networking functionality. This feature will be used in the future to lock you out of your own hardware, spy on you, serve as a vector for attacks, to restrict its functionality, and to steal that which you have already paid to own. Not if, when. I drive an ‘83 Toyota pickup, and I will never give it up. Modern cars are trash on multiple levels.

slowhand09 5y ago

Pelaton - I foresee a class action suit in your future. If this stands, next you'll have an automobile that is bricked after an "update".

sys_64738 5y ago

How can a lump of hardware require a subscription to work? I've been in a coma for 20 years.

api 5y ago
Every company wants recurring revenue: https://www.datagubbe.se/endofownership/ https://www.datagubbe.se/endofownership/
- sys_64738 5y ago
  Why don't we have this with computers? Surely we're depriving Lenovo and Apple of such revenue if we use the computer and don't pay a monthly fee? This whole sub thing is nuts.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    We do, it's basically Google and Apple's business model with Android [1] and iOS -- they're just better at hiding the monthly fee. [1] Yes you can have non-Google subscribed Android devices, doesn't mean that Google is banking on all but an insignificant portion of users doing that.
  - generalizations 5y ago
    Microsoft has been testing the concept with Office 365...just you wait.
    - sys_64738 5y ago
      No HW involve though?
      - generalizations 5y ago
        I was thinking more, that they rent access to the operating system, and push hard for locked down secure boot so Linux is hard to install.

bink 5y ago

The article uses the term "Just Run" several times but never bothers to explain what "Just Run" is. If it's the ability to use the treadmill without a subscription, well, that sucks but I can't imagine anyone spending $3k on one of these without even using the tablet. No one should have to do it to use the device but Peletons are actually relatively simple to jail break.

everdrive 5y ago

Every service, or product that relies on a service can either be taken from you, or have its terms changed. You'll have no recourse, or else your recourse will be a lengthy class action lawsuit, which may still result in an unsatisfactory resolution for the consumer.

altacc 5y ago

> "In our ongoing work to ensure our products are even safer ... we released Tread Lock, a four-digit passcode to secure Tread+ against unauthorized access. Unfortunately, Tread Lock is not yet available without a Peloton Membership..." This is ludicrous. I'm intrigued why it is so difficult to add a 4 digit passcode to a device that regularly receives software updates. It seems that bricking the device was an easier fix than a bit of coding. One of the benefits of IOT is the ability to provide regular updates & "improvements", however the first benefit of IOT is to earn as much money as possible for the suppliers and that typically steers product decisions.

masklinn 5y ago
> I'm intrigued why it is so difficult to add a 4 digit passcode to a device that regularly receives software updates. It probably is not, but that was a great excuse to make users pay for non-trivial features instead of just advanced.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

Before people go on a reddit like hate trail, it should be noted is in parallel with a full recall and reimbursement of all the treadmills

pavon 5y ago
Yeah, since they were pressured by the government into issuing a recall, they figured it would be a good time to shed customers that don't provide them recurring income which will offset the cost of the recall.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  How does shedding non-paying customers offset any costs? What does it mean to shed a customer that payed for a device and you have no ongoing relation with?
rchaud 5y ago
How do you return a giant piece of metal? Do they send a truck to pick it up? Who pays for that?
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Peleton pays for it all. They send a company to your house and pick up the device. Alternatively, They will pay and schedule a company to come to your house and relocate the device somewhere away from children and pets. https://www.onepeloton.com/press/articles/treadplus-faqs https://www.onepeloton.com/press/articles/treadplus-faqs
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    Are some portion of sold pelotons "used", without disclosing this to customers? Seems like their customers would not be happy if that was the case. Conversely, would be extremely wasteful if they don't. What do they do with returned equipment?

lokar 5y ago

A possible explanation is that they need/want to address th safety issue quickly, and the way to do that is a software change to something that is subscription only. They may well break out the PIN/safety feature later to not require a subscription.

tomp 5y ago

> As a reminder, under the terms of our voluntary recall, Tread+ owners can return their Tread+ for a full refund by contacting Member support I really don’t see the problem. You don’t have to like it, you can just return it (presumably getting the purchase money back). Vote with your wallet!

AuryGlenz 5y ago
That would depend on how easy their return process is. I can’t imagine it’s easy to ship back.
- tw04 5y ago
  Their return process is you say you want to return it, then you schedule a return date, and they send two guys out to box it up and remove it from your home. I'm not sure it could be any easier.

wly_cdgr 5y ago

Wow, an IoT company doing ransomware? That's crazy. No one could possibly have predicted that this would quickly become commonplace

sunshineforever 5y ago

I think this is horrible and I feel bad for the customers, but maybe this will make people think twice about buying a 3000 treadmill in the future.

matco11 5y ago

I am confused. I almost bought the Peloton treadmill months ago and it was pretty clear that the $40 subscription was needed and was on top. To me, the $40 subscription for treadmill is not new news

tw04 5y ago

I want to clarify because a lot of people seem to be confused about what's happening here. "Just run" is tracking your metrics. You can STILL use the treadmill without it, you just won't be getting information on the run like your pace, calories burned, power output, etc. The treadmill isn't bricked, it's just not providing metrics. If you have a garmin watch or insert fitness tracker you can still get info from that. I can understand why people would be annoyed by this change, and I would hope they add the functionality back in the future. But everyone saying it's "bricked" needs to take a deep breath.

rchaud 5y ago
In other words, bricked by the vendor themselves.
- xeromal 5y ago
  Bricked implies its as useful as a brick, but it still functions as a treadmill
pentae 5y ago
Yeah, seems totally reasonable to not have metrics after spending $2k-$3k on hardware. /s
- tw04 5y ago
  I guess it's a good thing I didn't say it was totally reasonable to remove metrics from the treadmill. Quite literally stated I understand why people are frustrated and I hope they add them back. Didn't even need a /s because I was trying to actually contribute something useful to the comments section.
lordloki 5y ago
I don't think you are correct. The entire point is to prevent treadmill use so children cannot run it. If it only prevented the viewing of run stats how would that keep kids from activating it?

qq4 5y ago

What's next, a kettlebell bolted to the floor until I agree to a monthly subscription? I can't imagine paying this much money to _just_ run. Okay, run and have someone encourage me. I get that they're successful, and lots of people seem to want a treadmill or bike that doesn't move, but I don't personally understand it. I'm starting to feel old fashioned with my workout technology, shoes and shorts.

kbos87 5y ago
I’m guessing they’ll use electromagnets to keep it glued to its base station unless your subscription is paid.

rchaud 5y ago

Peloton introduced a 4-digit passcode to improve product safety. But the passcode only works on their $39.99/mo. subscription tier. Give SaaS business models an inch and they'll take a mile. Can we go back to 1995 when $9.99 VHS exercise tapes were still an option?

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Can we go back to 1995 when $9.99 VHS exercise tapes were still an option? Exercise DVDs in that price range (same nominal price, substantially lower real price than $9.99 in 1995 dollars) are readily available and DVD players are cheap.

kbos87 5y ago

What isn’t clear to me is whether Peloton intends for this to be a permanent end state - that you need to buy a subscription to use “Just Run” - or if it’s a temporary state (we introduced the locking feature, made a dumb decision to require an account, and accounts are tied to paid subscriptions, and thus until we unwind that, here’s a few free months.) The former would be absolutely reprehensible. It’s ransomware, in the name of a death caused by your product. If it’s the latter, they absolutely blew it while communicating this. The likely scenario to me is somewhere inbetween. They are seeing how people react to this and were intentionally ambiguous to give themselves an escape hatch if there’s backlash.

mleonhard 5y ago
Peloton probably also wants to collect the valuable behavior data of users that are not currently signing in.

lykahb 5y ago

Until the regulators intervene, the trend of turning product ownership into subscription would continue. Makers of the locked down smart products are also opposing the right to repair. I wish it were a common knowledge that proprietary IoT devices are related to planned obsolescence, and therefore are bad for environment. The climate and environment activists have a stronger voice than consumer rights or privacy activists. It would be nice to join forces and lobby laws against this kind of predatory behavior.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tibbydudeza 5y ago

Smart move from Peloton - TAAS (Treadmill As A Service).

rkagerer 5y ago

Could someone explain why people are still buying these instead of competing treadmills? Do they have some kind of killer feature?

dexterdog 5y ago
The killer feature is marketing and content for your instagram account

SavantIdiot 5y ago

Anyone who is remotely tech-savvy has been on the continuum from skeptical of "free" cloud-based services, to downright paranoid. Two decades ago the joke was your fridge would stop working unless you paid for a microsoft upgrade. Obviously satire, it did carry an obvious warning that cloud-enable devices are owned by the cloud and not the purchaser. And here we are now with Peloton bricking a treadmill. To reference a cliche, I think Peloton turned up the heat a little two quickly and the frog jumped out of the pot of water. But they will learn to go more slowly in the future, the same way that we see people lazily subscribing to multiple $5.99 streaming TV channels, ultimately costing more than cable.