8 ms·

Good! Most modern cars made in the last few decades will easily run for 200,000 miles if properly maintained (oil changes and belts). I don't need the absolute

Good! Most modern cars made in the last few decades will easily run for 200,000 miles if properly maintained (oil changes and belts). I don't need the absolute latest and greatest computer safety features. Some of them sound nice but if it has side+passenger airbags and seatbelts then that is good enough for me. On the flip side, one of my family members gets a new car every year through some kind of special leasing program. Not only does that seem wasteful from a number of angles but how do you not get attached to a car you love driving? Once I find a car I like then I don't want to give it up unless maintenance becomes prohibitively expensive and even then it can be tough.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
Let's not forget that car manufacturers seem to be determined to ensure that new cars are worse than old cars. What do I want in a car? - No bluetooth. - No touchscreens. - Really, no screens at all. - Cabled audio input. A rearview camera is a good thing, except it still manages to make the car worse overall because the manufacturers somehow can't stop themselves from using the screen to display other things that should have been displayed in another way.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Worse for you. I happen to like bluetooth, backup cameras, wireless keys, and a lot of the other modern features cars have now. Manufacturers definitely went wrong putting important controls in the touch screen. That’s a usability nightmare. I’d consider the rest to be personal preference.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Wireless keys are a feature from the 90s.
    - whynotminot 5y ago
      So are cell phones. But there’s a difference in their quality and ubiquity now right?
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        No? They let you unlock your car from a distance. This is of pretty questionable utility in the first place, since you can't benefit from the unlocking without being next to the car, but it worked then just as well as it works now.
        whynotminot 5y ago
        Mine at least does a lot more than that. For instance, it's smart enough to know if you put the key in the trunk and will automatically open the trunk back up. It has pretty good awareness of where it is in relation to the car, which gives me more confidence in using it that I won't do something stupid and lock myself out (or at least not be allowed to do something stupid). If those earlier systems from the 90s were just as precisely "self aware" then I'll concede this point to you, but I suspect they weren't so well integrated. As far as the "questionable utility goes", I frankly love it. I love just walking up to my car and having it unlock for me. Sure, it's not much, but it's kind of the equivalent of Touch ID or Face ID on a phone these days. Sure, entering a PIN code isn't the hardest thing in the world, but it's the little things that make life just a smidge less annoying, right? You didn't address my point regarding their ubiquity now, so I feel like you kinda decided to only address half my point...
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      My 2016 Corolla still came with an old fashioned key.
    - kayodelycaon 5y ago
      I meant RFID keys. I never need to take mine out of my pocket. My door unlocks when I touch it. My car starts when I push the on button.
  - Silhouette 5y ago
    Manufacturers definitely went wrong putting important controls in the touch screen. That’s a usability nightmare. I’d consider the rest to be personal preference. I'm not sure I'd consider permanent connectivity and the related telemetry and OTA updates to be personal preference. These are often being used in ways contrary to the owner's or driver's interests, from invading privacy to "licensing" vehicle features that can be disabled later, and they come with significant security and safety risks.
- mattacular 5y ago
  I'm with you on this. Integrated bluetooth is nice to have, but if you have just aux in then you can get nearly 100% of the same functionality via a bluetooth adapter. That would be my only reason not to get an old car but even then, the cassette tape adapters are pretty good substitute for aux in.
  - midasuni 5y ago
    Cars with a standard size din connected radio can have Bluetooth without any of the other stuff - far better than a c90 adapter, and usually with have 3.5mm and usb power as well.
- zdragnar 5y ago
  You can get rearview cameras that integrate into the rear view mirror. It does make for a tiny screen, and good luck finding that on a new car, but the option exists for older cars at least.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Old cars can be maintained to run for hundreds of thousands of miles, but you might run into a catastrophic failure (main seal leak or similar) where the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the vehicle.
- lumost 5y ago
  The odds of this happening is declining over time. You can see the change in used car prices where popular reliable cars like the crv or crosstrek maintain a resale value above 10k for 5-10 years dependent on trim.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    "popular reliable" is basically just "what all the rich people bought last decade" They maintain value because a Sienna that's had an easy 100k miles with by the book maintenance is in much nicer shape and inherently has more life left than a Pacifica that was rode hard and put away wet over the same time period and distance.
  - asdff 5y ago
    You can't fight rust and degrading rubber. That's whats killing these old cars. My parents just walked away from a 14 year old Subaru. Headgasket was shot, fuel lines and brake lines rusted and shot, whole laundry list of other rusted and shot components like suspension, dash lit up like a chrismas tree, total bill was going to look like $15k for a car that wasn't worth $9k even before all this went down. A car is a wear item and eventually needs replacing unless you have years worth of knowhow and own expensive equipment like a lift and sometimes specialized tools for your vehicle.
    - jjav 5y ago
      > That's whats killing these old cars. Matter of perspective.. the only thing you list that I'd consider a concern to investigate is the "dash lit up like a chrismas tree". Everything else you mention is cheap replacement work. The warning lights could be just a few cheap sensors but could also be very expensive ECU replacements. So that one I'd have to dig deeper but the rest wouldn't bother me to buy such a car and fix it up in a weekend.
bradleyjg 5y ago
It’s remarkable how much they’ve improved. When was the last time you saw a car on the side of the road with its hood up and steam pouring out of the engine compartment?
- throwaway1777 5y ago
  Actually I did see that yesterday. But it was 98 degrees outside and an older car
- dharmab 5y ago
  Yesterday. A man with a truck at the top of a mountain pass, waiting in a camping chair with a jug of water for his tow.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    I guess I stand corrected. It’s been a long time for me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  >When was the last time you saw a car on the side of the road with its hood up and steam pouring out of the engine compartment? Friday afternoon. Although to be fair it was gray ATF smoke and not steam. I stopped and asked the guy what was up because I probably could have helped if it was easy and the details of the situation favored doing so. Turns out "muh million mile 4Runner" had sprung a leak in the transmission cooling plumbing. Based on the age of the vehicle I decided it would be better for him to get it towed than have me attempt a field repair so I lectured him on the basics of how an automatic transmission works and why he would be maxing an expensive gamble with bad odds if he were to pour a couple quarts in it and try to make it a few miles to where he was going rather than tow it.
prions 5y ago
On the downside, the engines in cars will pollute more as they age. This will make reducing pollution more difficult as people stick to their older and less efficient cars.
- gardncl 5y ago
  You're discounting the immense carbon footprint of building a new car then shipping it to the dealer. A number I remember, that might be wrong, is that over 50% of a car's lifetime emissions happen before it leaves the factory. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
  - prions 5y ago
    I'm not discounting it. I just care more about point-source pollution than carbon footprints abstracted across a global supply chain. The footprints can be reduced at scale over time, whereas these cars will be continuously producing more pollution as they age.
    - defterGoose 5y ago
      This is a really misguided opinion. Even an EV still has a significant carbon footprint in terms of electricity production. While it is possible to reduce or negate this with renewables in the future, its much less likely that building them now has a less significant carbon footprint. Plus, the old ICE vehicles people are driving are still providing lots of value with their cost already sunk. Its not like a lot of people are daily driving their classic Impala from the 60s.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > The footprints can be reduced at scale over time Which arguably supports driving older cars longer because not only does it reduce the overall frequency of car manufacturer, it also pushes that manufacturing process further into the future when the environmental impact of manufacturing a replacement would be lower.
pureliquidhw 5y ago
Someone needs to buy a new car so everyone else can get that deal on a used one. I played the lease game before, ended up driving brand new cars for around $2000 a year. After 10 years I paid around 20k, sure, but I also had a new car every 2.5 years (dealers are always buying out leases to get you into a new new car). New cars aren't, or at least weren't, always this massive financial blunder people claim. If it ends up costing you a few grand more per decade, why not lease, live within bumper to bumper warranties, and create the vehicles people actually seem to want, used ones.
- adwi 5y ago
  What cars were you leasing for $167/mo?
  - xf1cf 5y ago
    Several budget brands have leases this cheap. Hyundai, Kia, and Honda all come to mind. I'm pretty sure just the other week I saw a car lot commercial offering somewhere in the ballpark of this amount for a Kia.
  - sbierwagen 5y ago
    You can lease a Nissan Leaf for like $100 a month.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      I'm seeing US$159-$199/month. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129864_nissan-leaf-lease-deal-tops-october-roundup-for-evs-hybrids-phevs https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129864_nissan-leaf-lea... Basically unobtainium lease rates outside of USA. In Canada, I'm seeing ~US$400/month for 60 month lease on a Leaf, and 40% more on a 3y lease: https://www.leasecosts.ca/en/cars/nissan/leaf-s-electric/2021/cvt/2wd https://www.leasecosts.ca/en/cars/nissan/leaf-s-electric/202...
oceanplexian 5y ago
The mechanical bits might last 200,000 miles, but no one will be able to use the software in a decade because it was based on some proprietary interface developed by a defunct car manufacturer. For example you might be able to replace a blind spot detection sensor in the future, but since the parts are coded and require a cloud service to 'activate' you are more or less screwed. And, most likely the manufacturer designed the computer to refuse to allow the car to start without the sensor so you are left with a heavy, environmentally-destructive paperweight to send straight to the crusher.
- mattacular 5y ago
  If you shop ~pre-2014 or so models you should not have this terrible problem. I would do as much research as I could and get something older just to avoid such things. In my household both cars are older than that and my (independent) mechanic can do anything we require. Granted, that is today, and in the likely future we may not be so lucky so enjoy it while it lasts!
- chiph 5y ago
  My DVD based navigation system is on the newest maps it will ever have .. from 2015. It'd be nice if the data & build tools became open-source after being abandoned for ten years, but it's not up to Toyota - it's up to Garmin/Kenwood/etc. that built the unit for them.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Garmin at least continues to provide map updates even for quite old GPS units.
  - asdff 5y ago
    At least for now you can still swap out head units in cars.
csours 5y ago
The new car doesn't evaporate when your family member is done with it! The dealer likely makes a pretty penny on selling those, or re-leasing them as is becoming more common.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  And eventually exporting them or sending them to a boneyard where they end up as bits and pieces of other cars. The usual boneyard model these days immediately cut off the high-value parts for themselves (cat converters, rims, batteries or tires if they're newer, maybe body parts), drop it on cinder blocks for 3 months for U-pullers to take off other parts, and then crush them. (This is why I buy mass-model Toyotas, easy to fix, always spare parts, always a buyer)

thaumasiotes 5y ago

Let's not forget that car manufacturers seem to be determined to ensure that new cars are worse than old cars. What do I want in a car? - No bluetooth. - No touchscreens. - Really, no screens at all. - Cabled audio input. A rearview camera is a good thing, except it still manages to make the car worse overall because the manufacturers somehow can't stop themselves from using the screen to display other things that should have been displayed in another way.

kayodelycaon 5y ago
Worse for you. I happen to like bluetooth, backup cameras, wireless keys, and a lot of the other modern features cars have now. Manufacturers definitely went wrong putting important controls in the touch screen. That’s a usability nightmare. I’d consider the rest to be personal preference.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  Wireless keys are a feature from the 90s.
  - whynotminot 5y ago
    So are cell phones. But there’s a difference in their quality and ubiquity now right?
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      No? They let you unlock your car from a distance. This is of pretty questionable utility in the first place, since you can't benefit from the unlocking without being next to the car, but it worked then just as well as it works now.
      - whynotminot 5y ago
        Mine at least does a lot more than that. For instance, it's smart enough to know if you put the key in the trunk and will automatically open the trunk back up. It has pretty good awareness of where it is in relation to the car, which gives me more confidence in using it that I won't do something stupid and lock myself out (or at least not be allowed to do something stupid). If those earlier systems from the 90s were just as precisely "self aware" then I'll concede this point to you, but I suspect they weren't so well integrated. As far as the "questionable utility goes", I frankly love it. I love just walking up to my car and having it unlock for me. Sure, it's not much, but it's kind of the equivalent of Touch ID or Face ID on a phone these days. Sure, entering a PIN code isn't the hardest thing in the world, but it's the little things that make life just a smidge less annoying, right? You didn't address my point regarding their ubiquity now, so I feel like you kinda decided to only address half my point...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    My 2016 Corolla still came with an old fashioned key.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    I meant RFID keys. I never need to take mine out of my pocket. My door unlocks when I touch it. My car starts when I push the on button.
- Silhouette 5y ago
  Manufacturers definitely went wrong putting important controls in the touch screen. That’s a usability nightmare. I’d consider the rest to be personal preference. I'm not sure I'd consider permanent connectivity and the related telemetry and OTA updates to be personal preference. These are often being used in ways contrary to the owner's or driver's interests, from invading privacy to "licensing" vehicle features that can be disabled later, and they come with significant security and safety risks.
mattacular 5y ago
I'm with you on this. Integrated bluetooth is nice to have, but if you have just aux in then you can get nearly 100% of the same functionality via a bluetooth adapter. That would be my only reason not to get an old car but even then, the cassette tape adapters are pretty good substitute for aux in.
- midasuni 5y ago
  Cars with a standard size din connected radio can have Bluetooth without any of the other stuff - far better than a c90 adapter, and usually with have 3.5mm and usb power as well.
zdragnar 5y ago
You can get rearview cameras that integrate into the rear view mirror. It does make for a tiny screen, and good luck finding that on a new car, but the option exists for older cars at least.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Old cars can be maintained to run for hundreds of thousands of miles, but you might run into a catastrophic failure (main seal leak or similar) where the cost of the repair exceeds the value of the vehicle.

lumost 5y ago
The odds of this happening is declining over time. You can see the change in used car prices where popular reliable cars like the crv or crosstrek maintain a resale value above 10k for 5-10 years dependent on trim.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  "popular reliable" is basically just "what all the rich people bought last decade" They maintain value because a Sienna that's had an easy 100k miles with by the book maintenance is in much nicer shape and inherently has more life left than a Pacifica that was rode hard and put away wet over the same time period and distance.
- asdff 5y ago
  You can't fight rust and degrading rubber. That's whats killing these old cars. My parents just walked away from a 14 year old Subaru. Headgasket was shot, fuel lines and brake lines rusted and shot, whole laundry list of other rusted and shot components like suspension, dash lit up like a chrismas tree, total bill was going to look like $15k for a car that wasn't worth $9k even before all this went down. A car is a wear item and eventually needs replacing unless you have years worth of knowhow and own expensive equipment like a lift and sometimes specialized tools for your vehicle.
  - jjav 5y ago
    > That's whats killing these old cars. Matter of perspective.. the only thing you list that I'd consider a concern to investigate is the "dash lit up like a chrismas tree". Everything else you mention is cheap replacement work. The warning lights could be just a few cheap sensors but could also be very expensive ECU replacements. So that one I'd have to dig deeper but the rest wouldn't bother me to buy such a car and fix it up in a weekend.

bradleyjg 5y ago

It’s remarkable how much they’ve improved. When was the last time you saw a car on the side of the road with its hood up and steam pouring out of the engine compartment?

throwaway1777 5y ago
Actually I did see that yesterday. But it was 98 degrees outside and an older car
dharmab 5y ago
Yesterday. A man with a truck at the top of a mountain pass, waiting in a camping chair with a jug of water for his tow.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  I guess I stand corrected. It’s been a long time for me.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>When was the last time you saw a car on the side of the road with its hood up and steam pouring out of the engine compartment? Friday afternoon. Although to be fair it was gray ATF smoke and not steam. I stopped and asked the guy what was up because I probably could have helped if it was easy and the details of the situation favored doing so. Turns out "muh million mile 4Runner" had sprung a leak in the transmission cooling plumbing. Based on the age of the vehicle I decided it would be better for him to get it towed than have me attempt a field repair so I lectured him on the basics of how an automatic transmission works and why he would be maxing an expensive gamble with bad odds if he were to pour a couple quarts in it and try to make it a few miles to where he was going rather than tow it.

prions 5y ago

On the downside, the engines in cars will pollute more as they age. This will make reducing pollution more difficult as people stick to their older and less efficient cars.

gardncl 5y ago
You're discounting the immense carbon footprint of building a new car then shipping it to the dealer. A number I remember, that might be wrong, is that over 50% of a car's lifetime emissions happen before it leaves the factory. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/2010/sep/23/carbon-footprint-new-car https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-blog/20...
- prions 5y ago
  I'm not discounting it. I just care more about point-source pollution than carbon footprints abstracted across a global supply chain. The footprints can be reduced at scale over time, whereas these cars will be continuously producing more pollution as they age.
  - defterGoose 5y ago
    This is a really misguided opinion. Even an EV still has a significant carbon footprint in terms of electricity production. While it is possible to reduce or negate this with renewables in the future, its much less likely that building them now has a less significant carbon footprint. Plus, the old ICE vehicles people are driving are still providing lots of value with their cost already sunk. Its not like a lot of people are daily driving their classic Impala from the 60s.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > The footprints can be reduced at scale over time Which arguably supports driving older cars longer because not only does it reduce the overall frequency of car manufacturer, it also pushes that manufacturing process further into the future when the environmental impact of manufacturing a replacement would be lower.

pureliquidhw 5y ago

Someone needs to buy a new car so everyone else can get that deal on a used one. I played the lease game before, ended up driving brand new cars for around $2000 a year. After 10 years I paid around 20k, sure, but I also had a new car every 2.5 years (dealers are always buying out leases to get you into a new new car). New cars aren't, or at least weren't, always this massive financial blunder people claim. If it ends up costing you a few grand more per decade, why not lease, live within bumper to bumper warranties, and create the vehicles people actually seem to want, used ones.

adwi 5y ago
What cars were you leasing for $167/mo?
- xf1cf 5y ago
  Several budget brands have leases this cheap. Hyundai, Kia, and Honda all come to mind. I'm pretty sure just the other week I saw a car lot commercial offering somewhere in the ballpark of this amount for a Kia.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  You can lease a Nissan Leaf for like $100 a month.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    I'm seeing US$159-$199/month. https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129864_nissan-leaf-lease-deal-tops-october-roundup-for-evs-hybrids-phevs https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1129864_nissan-leaf-lea... Basically unobtainium lease rates outside of USA. In Canada, I'm seeing ~US$400/month for 60 month lease on a Leaf, and 40% more on a 3y lease: https://www.leasecosts.ca/en/cars/nissan/leaf-s-electric/2021/cvt/2wd https://www.leasecosts.ca/en/cars/nissan/leaf-s-electric/202...

oceanplexian 5y ago

The mechanical bits might last 200,000 miles, but no one will be able to use the software in a decade because it was based on some proprietary interface developed by a defunct car manufacturer. For example you might be able to replace a blind spot detection sensor in the future, but since the parts are coded and require a cloud service to 'activate' you are more or less screwed. And, most likely the manufacturer designed the computer to refuse to allow the car to start without the sensor so you are left with a heavy, environmentally-destructive paperweight to send straight to the crusher.

mattacular 5y ago
If you shop ~pre-2014 or so models you should not have this terrible problem. I would do as much research as I could and get something older just to avoid such things. In my household both cars are older than that and my (independent) mechanic can do anything we require. Granted, that is today, and in the likely future we may not be so lucky so enjoy it while it lasts!
chiph 5y ago
My DVD based navigation system is on the newest maps it will ever have .. from 2015. It'd be nice if the data & build tools became open-source after being abandoned for ten years, but it's not up to Toyota - it's up to Garmin/Kenwood/etc. that built the unit for them.
- nradov 5y ago
  Garmin at least continues to provide map updates even for quite old GPS units.
- asdff 5y ago
  At least for now you can still swap out head units in cars.

csours 5y ago

The new car doesn't evaporate when your family member is done with it! The dealer likely makes a pretty penny on selling those, or re-leasing them as is becoming more common.

Scoundreller 5y ago
And eventually exporting them or sending them to a boneyard where they end up as bits and pieces of other cars. The usual boneyard model these days immediately cut off the high-value parts for themselves (cat converters, rims, batteries or tires if they're newer, maybe body parts), drop it on cinder blocks for 3 months for U-pullers to take off other parts, and then crush them. (This is why I buy mass-model Toyotas, easy to fix, always spare parts, always a buyer)