7 ms·

Is there anything anyone can do about all this? Or is this how Western civilization finally ends?

by llimos 5y ago

breatheoften 5y ago
I could imagine a wealth tax movement getting strong enough and that or the threat of it might eventually be able to change things ... :fingers crossed: Or maybe if the trend of folks no longer working continues for long enough with enough force ... The labor class has gotten screwed so severely for so long opting out of the labor economy is probably the most rationale option available for the majority of earth's human population ...
brnt 5y ago
It's how Anglosaxon civilization may end, but there are Western alternatives with better democratic oversight, such as the Rhineland model. They are creaking under the strain of Anglosaxon propaganda though.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  It's not (bloody) anglo-saxon. There are many sub-cultures within the anglo-saxon-sphere, some of them cooperative, egalitarian, pluralistic, strongly democratic. Call it for what it is, using whatever terminology you want ... capitalist, neo-liberal, oligarchic ... just use something more specific and more accurate than "anglo-saxon" if you want terms to actually have some meaning.
amelius 5y ago
Exploiting tax loopholes is like hacking the financial system. And this kind of hacking should be punishable just like black-hat computer hacking is. Using a system (or the law) in ways it was not intended to be used can be considered hacking.
- whatshisface 5y ago
  That just replaces all of the accountants with lawyers.
- mnouquet 5y ago
  It's not. There is no "loophole" as it's how the damn law is written. Claiming "whatever tax credit" is not a "loophole" but merely claiming what the law allows you to claim.
- refurb 5y ago
  “Loophole” is just a legal tax move people don’t like. Note - it’s still legal. So your idea is to punish people for doing legal things?
  - JetSpiegel 5y ago
    Just like the Etherum guys reverted a "legal" hack, we should punish people for "legally" dodging taxes.
- sfblah 5y ago
  At core, the issue is that the people who hack the law are way, way, way smarter and more motivated than those who write the law. The hackers in this case typically aren't doing anything illegal. They're just exploiting the system crafted by lawmakers. This is part of the reason the best tax system is one that is super simple. Once you add in exceptions and complexity, you necessarily create loopholes. Government needs to be humble about the reality that the adversary will always be smarter and willing to work harder.
  - jorvi 5y ago
    Another way to look at it is government jobs just need to pay better and have much more prestige. In some Asian countries, government jobs are the most coveted of all. Imagine if we lived in a reverse world where the smartest people clamored to work at the local ministry of economy and working at the big banks was seen as second-rate. Companies would no longer outsmart the government, and voters would understand that the extra tax income more than pays for the more expensive top-of-the-line people. A man can dream..
atlgator 5y ago
There is a huge difference between taxing capital gains (net profit from investment each year) and taxing capital (direct tax on your entire net worth). The former is an effective tool to tax the wealthy by adding new capital gains tax brackets. The latter is how Western civilization ends because you will no longer own anything free and clear after income taxes. The Government will have the ability to take your capital when and how they wish.
- laserdancepony 5y ago
  It's okay because I have nothing to take.
- Retric 5y ago
  We already tax cars and land, it’s hardly the end of civilization.
  - sfblah 5y ago
    And boats!
  - lightgreen 5y ago
    Do we tax cars? I though we only tax road use, and this tax income goes into road maintenance, not medicine or whatever.
    - Retric 5y ago
      https://www.carvana.com/research/2020/03/do-you-have-to-pay-taxes-on-your-car-every-year/ https://www.carvana.com/research/2020/03/do-you-have-to-pay-... It varies but many state and local governments collect personal property taxes on based on the vehicle’s value. What’s notable is US property taxes are generally regressive. 3.6% for the bottom 20% down to 0.7% for the top 1%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_Sta...
- xg15 5y ago
  If the move to subscriptions and smart devices keeps going like it does, you'll no longer own anything anyway.
disposekinetics 5y ago
I feel like you're conflating civilization and government.
ilaksh 5y ago
I'm pretty sure there are only two possible ways these things will change significantly. WWIII or AI/yogurt takeover.
api 5y ago
The culture war ensures that neither side will vote on the basis of economic issues, so no.
tootie 5y ago
Vote. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-12/manchin-other-democrats-back-biden-plan-to-end-carried-interest https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-12/manchin-o...
refurb 5y ago
Ahhh yes, how Western civilization will end. It will be replaced by the far more equitable and non-corrupt tax systems found in Asia and Africa.
hnick 5y ago
As long as money is power I think we would have to rely on those with the money wanting to give up some of the power. Of course, there are other forms of power the penniless can and have resorted to in the past. I have read that in the past paying taxes was a sort of pride, a kind of score-keeping among the rich. Just recently I saw an anime (JoJo's) where the influential senator was trying to reassure himself how powerful and successful he was and one of the lines was something like "I pay more taxes than anyone!". I don't know if this was meant to be a reflection of modern Japanese culture (it was set in 1989) but it felt archaic.
imtringued 5y ago
Capitalism doesn't end. It gets renovated after a war. There is a huge variety of solutions. War isn't inevitable it is merely the easiest way.

Is there anything anyone can do about all this? Or is this how Western civilization finally ends?

by llimos 5y ago

Is there anything anyone can do about all this? Or is this how Western civilization finally ends?

I could imagine a wealth tax movement getting strong enough and that or the threat of it might eventually be able to change things ... :fingers crossed: Or maybe if the trend of folks no longer working continues for long enough with enough force ... The labor class has gotten screwed so severely for so long opting out of the labor economy is probably the most rationale option available for the majority of earth's human population ...

brnt 5y ago

It's how Anglosaxon civilization may end, but there are Western alternatives with better democratic oversight, such as the Rhineland model. They are creaking under the strain of Anglosaxon propaganda though.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
It's not (bloody) anglo-saxon. There are many sub-cultures within the anglo-saxon-sphere, some of them cooperative, egalitarian, pluralistic, strongly democratic. Call it for what it is, using whatever terminology you want ... capitalist, neo-liberal, oligarchic ... just use something more specific and more accurate than "anglo-saxon" if you want terms to actually have some meaning.

amelius 5y ago

Exploiting tax loopholes is like hacking the financial system. And this kind of hacking should be punishable just like black-hat computer hacking is. Using a system (or the law) in ways it was not intended to be used can be considered hacking.

whatshisface 5y ago
That just replaces all of the accountants with lawyers.
mnouquet 5y ago
It's not. There is no "loophole" as it's how the damn law is written. Claiming "whatever tax credit" is not a "loophole" but merely claiming what the law allows you to claim.
refurb 5y ago
“Loophole” is just a legal tax move people don’t like. Note - it’s still legal. So your idea is to punish people for doing legal things?
- JetSpiegel 5y ago
  Just like the Etherum guys reverted a "legal" hack, we should punish people for "legally" dodging taxes.
sfblah 5y ago
At core, the issue is that the people who hack the law are way, way, way smarter and more motivated than those who write the law. The hackers in this case typically aren't doing anything illegal. They're just exploiting the system crafted by lawmakers. This is part of the reason the best tax system is one that is super simple. Once you add in exceptions and complexity, you necessarily create loopholes. Government needs to be humble about the reality that the adversary will always be smarter and willing to work harder.
- jorvi 5y ago
  Another way to look at it is government jobs just need to pay better and have much more prestige. In some Asian countries, government jobs are the most coveted of all. Imagine if we lived in a reverse world where the smartest people clamored to work at the local ministry of economy and working at the big banks was seen as second-rate. Companies would no longer outsmart the government, and voters would understand that the extra tax income more than pays for the more expensive top-of-the-line people. A man can dream..

atlgator 5y ago

There is a huge difference between taxing capital gains (net profit from investment each year) and taxing capital (direct tax on your entire net worth). The former is an effective tool to tax the wealthy by adding new capital gains tax brackets. The latter is how Western civilization ends because you will no longer own anything free and clear after income taxes. The Government will have the ability to take your capital when and how they wish.

laserdancepony 5y ago
It's okay because I have nothing to take.
Retric 5y ago
We already tax cars and land, it’s hardly the end of civilization.
- sfblah 5y ago
  And boats!
- lightgreen 5y ago
  Do we tax cars? I though we only tax road use, and this tax income goes into road maintenance, not medicine or whatever.
  - Retric 5y ago
    https://www.carvana.com/research/2020/03/do-you-have-to-pay-taxes-on-your-car-every-year/ https://www.carvana.com/research/2020/03/do-you-have-to-pay-... It varies but many state and local governments collect personal property taxes on based on the vehicle’s value. What’s notable is US property taxes are generally regressive. 3.6% for the bottom 20% down to 0.7% for the top 1%. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_tax_in_the_United_Sta...
xg15 5y ago
If the move to subscriptions and smart devices keeps going like it does, you'll no longer own anything anyway.

disposekinetics 5y ago

I feel like you're conflating civilization and government.

ilaksh 5y ago

I'm pretty sure there are only two possible ways these things will change significantly. WWIII or AI/yogurt takeover.

api 5y ago

The culture war ensures that neither side will vote on the basis of economic issues, so no.

tootie 5y ago

Vote. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-12/manchin-other-democrats-back-biden-plan-to-end-carried-interest https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-12/manchin-o...

refurb 5y ago

Ahhh yes, how Western civilization will end. It will be replaced by the far more equitable and non-corrupt tax systems found in Asia and Africa.

hnick 5y ago

As long as money is power I think we would have to rely on those with the money wanting to give up some of the power. Of course, there are other forms of power the penniless can and have resorted to in the past. I have read that in the past paying taxes was a sort of pride, a kind of score-keeping among the rich. Just recently I saw an anime (JoJo's) where the influential senator was trying to reassure himself how powerful and successful he was and one of the lines was something like "I pay more taxes than anyone!". I don't know if this was meant to be a reflection of modern Japanese culture (it was set in 1989) but it felt archaic.

imtringued 5y ago

Capitalism doesn't end. It gets renovated after a war. There is a huge variety of solutions. War isn't inevitable it is merely the easiest way.