21 ms·

Bosch opens German chip plant

684 points by nixass 5y ago

coolspot 5y ago
1B is like three last-gen ASML machines, good start I guess, but chip manufacturing can easily absorb 10x of that. As I understand it, there are no plans to turn Europe into a chip leader, they just want to protect automotive supply chain.
- brnt 5y ago
  This factory won't be purchasing last gen stuff, more like 10 year old gen machines (I heard 25ish nm machines).
  - kenhwang 5y ago
    Other sources[1] say its 65nm, and the chips won't even be used for automotive purposes. [1]: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-fab-2021-06/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-...
    - sorenjan 5y ago
      Here's a source from Bosch themselves saying "up to 65 nm", which I assume means 65 nm as the smallest feature. They're making "Application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), and power semiconductors" mainly for the automotive industry, so they're probably counting on that being enough. And what a great time to start production. https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-fab-in-dresden-229248.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-f...
    - nfin 5y ago
      the text says otherwise regarding automotive: "with output of automotive chips to follow from September" (so, you're correct for now until september, but sep. is soon already I would say)
  - lallysingh 5y ago
    They'll probably making chips for Bosch parts. IIUC they don't do much advanced computational stuff.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  No ones using last-gen for automotive.
  - coolspot 5y ago
    I was just establishing frame of reference for the investment amout. 1B is barely news-worthy.
  - antattack 5y ago
    Tesla is using Navi 23 RDNA in their new S and X models. That's 7nm chip. NN accelerators will likely move to 16nm or better soon. However, you're right that most automotive chips and power electronics use 180 or 65nm process. EDIT: Mobile Eye, EyeQ5 ADAS SoC is already 7nm FinFET.
  - GloriousKoji 5y ago
    Maybe for computational stuff but older/bigger process nodes are still very capable (and possibly better) for power related things.
  - iseanstevens 5y ago
    Most cars still default to incandescent bulbs for many uses. Few cars attempt to understand the situation around them, beyond a rear camera and maybe ultrasonic reverse sensor for parking. Engine control units have gotten more complicated, but unless high end or EV, It’s mostly mid 90s tech. Disagree?
    - jiofih 5y ago
      I dare you find an incandescent on any car designed in the last five years. It’s insanely inefficient.
      - developer93 5y ago
        And at least in Europe, outlawed since about 10 years
- marcodiego 5y ago
  Complete outsider doubt: every time I hear about chip manufacturing, somebody talks about ASML machines. Considering that many of the chips we use are built by ASML machines, why isn't Netherlands a top chip manufacturer?
  - madengr 5y ago
    They probably don’t have the manpower. The Asian countries produce hardware engineers at 10x that of the west, and with a much larger population, have a vast talent pool.
  - icegreentea2 5y ago
    The skills and risks in different parts of the chain are different. Having access to excellent photo-lithography machines is not enough to guarantee having an excellent foundry or process - that much should be evident from ASML supplying TSMC and Intel, and observing Intel's struggles with 10nm. The machines ASML produces allow you make ultra precise and tiny patterns of material. You still need to choose what those materials are, figure out how you're going to create the material (as in what dopants are you adding in what quantities), what your geometry actually is, and on and on and on.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - MangoCoffee 5y ago
    different skillset. making equipment and running a profitable fab is like Apple and Orange. Intel with its years of experiences in semis industry and yet Intel is not in the semis equipment business and Intel was in the very early stage of semis industry.
  - kalium-xyz 5y ago
    Philips is fractured and a shadow of its former self. They used to both make the machines and the chips now its ASML and NXP
    - berkes 5y ago
- sangnoir 5y ago
  Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader? Unless you mean in wafer production/fabs or being on the forefront of shrinking process-nodes. Europe is behind in fabs and has historically underfunded the industry - understandable, as it had worked fine for a long time, with globalization, long supply chains and JIT inventories. Then came nativism, "Tariff Man" and a global pandemic, and Europe had to rethink its long-term strategy.
  - systemvoltage 5y ago
    There is more that goes inside a Fab than a litho tool. Granted it’s a major one, but a fabs has 400 process steps. See KLA Tencor, Applied Materials, TEL, Advantest, ASM, Hirata, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, etc probably dozens more.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      Yes, and "dozens more" needs to be changed to hundreds more, with most not being known even to industry insiders. Lots of them are single vendor globally, and are Taiwanese. For example, FOUP cleaning machines are made only by Gudeng (as well as ultra low particle FOUPs themselves,) and don't think that "cleaning machine" is any much less sophisticated than other equipment. It's the size of a truck, made of space age materials to survive fluorines, and costs many megabucks.
  - throwawaysea 5y ago
    ASML is a supplier for one part of the overall process yes, but their core innovation is also somewhat limited. Their EUV technology is actually based on a license from the US DOE (from 1999: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/), as part of a consortium of companies that were allowed to benefit from early US R&D into EUV. This is also why the US is able to require ASML to not export EUV machines to China. In my opinion from limited knowledge, being a leader means also being able to change the industry in significant ways. You could argue ASML has contributed to that but I think their dependence on US research indicates they aren’t independently set up to be a leader in this space.
- dzonga 5y ago
  they can easily do that. that's why I also think Intel will turn things around with it's fabs. You don't need to be manufacturing the latest node chips. Just a couple generations old, will do the trick for automotive, defense and non fashionable electronics. also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful.
  - eb0la 5y ago
    > also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful. Only powerful ;-) ? Just found out some FPGAs have embedded processor cores with them (no need to generate them like in 2000) just because their customers already need that and they have enough gates to use. Other recent stuff like in the RPI2040 microcontroller is a way to code your own "independent" IO sub-programs that run in parallel by a dedicated procesor that does not interfere in your code. Hardware never stops to amaze me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
The last 3 paragraphs confirms what I think is the most interesting point: > The Bosch plant, which received 200 million euros ($243 million) in state aid under a European Union investment scheme, will start making chips for power tools in July, with output of automotive chips to follow from September. > "The state-of-the-art technology in Bosch's new semiconductor factory in Dresden shows what outstanding results can be achieved when industry and government join forces," said European Commission Vice-President Margrethe Vestager. > Kroeger said Bosch supported a broader strategic push by Brussels to revive Europe’s semiconductor industry. A recently unveiled plan targets doubling the region’s share of global chip production to 20% by 2030. I saw a Guardian headline the other day that said Biden's mission at the G7 meeting is to find allies for a new Cold War against China[1], but the USA isn't actually a reliable partner for the EU, what with Trump 2024 a scenario they can't even rule out yet (thanks to the obstructionist party still being very influential and working very hard to disenfranchise voters). So it makes sense for the EU to ramp up chip production. Interestingly for Bosch or other tech companies, it's probably a no-lose scenario, the EU money will probably keep coming for them. [1] I DDGed "Biden new cold war" but the results are headlines that say he's accelerating it...
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  > thanks to the obstructionist party still being very influential and working very hard to disenfranchise voters. Fantastic. Thanks for reminding me to vote for them a third time in a row.
- dmix 5y ago
  Curious you’re focusing on US (politics) and not China/Taiwan/SEA… is that really relevant considering they have enough capital and Germany has plenty of manufacturing? The only thing relevant for the US re risking starting this niche is brain drain and talent. The market is always growing, they already have vertical demand (power tools and simple car chips), and new more-local competition can never be dismissed. It always comes down to the people at the end of the day. Your 2nd paragraph quote where they are declaring this a successful example of public/private just because the factory was built is a bit concerning to me. They’ve mearly just begun.
gpm 5y ago
I never realized Bosch was so big (77 billion euros in annual revenue). The corporate structure is also really interesting. 92% owned by charity, 7% by the bosch family, 0.01% by the this trust made up of old membership, family, and "eminent people from the industry", but that last 0.01% has 93% of the vote. I'm now curious how this all works in practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH#Corporate_affairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH#Corporate_af...
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Like a lot of Family-owned European companies (Ikea comes to mind as well), it's a thinly veiled employment opportunity for the heirs that does very little actual charity. The family is heavily involved in board selection, & it's really just an elaborate tax scheme. Seriously, look at their 'project list,' a film award is #2! https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/project-search https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/project-search
  - CPLX 5y ago
    Seems sort of better than the alternative though isn’t it, ie the American model where industrial companies are endlessly looted by management, investment bankers, and private equity firms via a never ending series of mergers and divestments and massive debt loads. It may not be charity, but at least it’s stable.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      It's not an either-or question. The US has similar style tax-avoidance structures that may sponsor a little-league team or classical music concert to maintain their public image. And Europe has their own corporate raiders -- did you follow the latest drama between Porsche and VW? That failed takeover bid forced out the Porsche CEO but at least he had a $200M golden parachute.
      - realityking 5y ago
        Calling it “the latest drama” might be accurate (I don’t think there’s more recent drama) but it obscures the fact that this particular drama was resolved 12 years ago with VW buying Porsche and the Porsche shareholders becoming the largest VW shareholders.
B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
https://www.google.com/search?q=bosch+cheating+software https://www.google.com/search?q=bosch+cheating+software Oh well, now they can do it in hardware, too. Huzzah.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
  Here: as a badge of honor, I'd like to garner a few more downvotes from fans of criminal malfeasance. I'm deeply sorry that the great tradition of German engineering has been besmirched by swindlers, and those swindlers have not been roundly denounced by Germans themselves.
  - bernulli 5y ago
    Not a unique German thing, I am afraid, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal "A practice by diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NO x) by more than 10 times.[1] ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat."
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    I suspect you are being downvoted for the low effort comment that is just a google search link with no context or commentary. I don't think it particularly has anything to do with the content since few people are going to expend the effort figuring out what you are talking about.
  - anunnymouse 5y ago
    Remember that time you did something wrong? I'll make sure to bring that up next time I read an article about something you did, regardless of what what you did wrong or what the article is about.
antattack 5y ago
Bosch started the project way before chip shortage, around 2017 [1] and opening it right on schedule. This is the second factory of this type, good foresight by Germans and EU. [1]https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-bosch-to-invest-1-bln-euros-in-dresden-semiconductor-plant-idUSL8N1JC2GE https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-bosch-t...
- AceJohnny2 5y ago
  > good foresight I'd call it luck. I doubt that in the planning stages they could anticipate the auto industry order-then-Pandemic-cancel-then-order-again wave that messed up the logistics of the semiconductor industry.
  - antattack 5y ago
    Deterioration of US-China (and US - Europe too) relations might have contributed to to the decision. Also, at that time it was obvious that power electronics was going to be in high demand, especially of SiC type.
  - float4 5y ago
    It's not about the pandemic or luck. It has to do with strategy, more independence etc.
  - lstoll 5y ago
    you don't have to predict that exact scenario to know that domestic semiconductor manufacturing is a good idea.
  - igalic 5y ago
    It has nothing to do with the pandemic, but the strategy and investment in reducing reliance on external (to the EU, and Germany in particular) suppliers is not luck.
    - ineedasername 5y ago
      Absolutely. Even with the US, as much as Europe & the US are more aligned than not on geopolitical issues, the last 4-5 years have shown that is not guaranteed to continue indefinitely. And in terms of the fragility of the world's industrial and economic engines, perhaps this is a realization that globalization has gone too far and the pendulum needs to swing more towards slightly higher self-sufficiency. Not even for some philosophy of anti-globalism, but merely because things are too brittle as they are now.
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notyourav 5y ago
Bosch is going all-in for IoT. CEO/Borad realized they need to produce own chips for that a couple of years back and made the single biggest invest decision. Automotive also uses lot's of ASICs. Too bad it's an LLC (GmbH), can't buy stocks.
- jiofih 5y ago
  Their subsidiary in India is publicly traded.
jollybean 5y ago
It seems like a smart move: do something safer to start to provide domestic supply. But it also provides a stepping point for something more more aggressive if that's the future they want to move in. The UK, given Brexit, needs to make at least 2 moves like this. And the US needs to make 5.
pyronode 5y ago
,m
FeelTheBerns 5y ago
Our Bosch dishwasher is absolutely incredible. Hands down best appliance I've ever owned.
- megablast 5y ago
  My too dishwashers are pretty good too. Ive had them for ages, since I was born.
- PhantomGremlin 5y ago
  All appliances have problems. E.g. In 2009, Bosch issued a voluntary recall on certain model dishwashers that could overheat and pose a fire risk to consumers. In 2013, a second global recall was issued and covered more than five million machines. https://www.classaction.org/bosch-dishwasher-fire https://www.classaction.org/bosch-dishwasher-fire But 2013 was so long ago in Internet years, wasn't it? We own a Bosch dishwasher. We bought it knowing about their previous problems, because it was very quiet. The only thing I dislike about it is it insists on beeping every 10 minutes after completing a load. STFU, I know the dishes are clean!!! Ironically, our previous non-Bosch dishwasher caught fire. Literally.
  - aitchnyu 5y ago
    Wish they took a page from Peopleware and make a softer buzz. The authors insisted everybody at the office put cotton over their office phones so they are not jarring each time they ring.
- Trollmann 5y ago
  Bosch household appliances aren‘t built by Bosch but BSH [1] instead. (They are still great) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte
  - Dumbdo 5y ago
    But BSH is a direct child company of Bosch, you can even get those products for a discount as a (automotive) Bosch employee. Most Bosch divisions are separate child companies. It's just that BSH is very small part of Bosch compared to the automotive parts of Bosch.
justicezyx 5y ago
The article has no details of the plants technology. Anyone here has more information about the projected products and other technical detail
KingOfCoders 5y ago
Sadly no chips for dishwashers, I'm still waiting for my Miele dishwasher because no chips, no ETA.
unholythree 5y ago
I remember stumbling across a bunch of pictures of Bosch getting a brand new IBM System/370-165 mainframe circa 1970 that were pretty great. I especially liked how all the IBM installers were doing manual labor with their ties on. link: https://www.bosch.com/stories/ibm-mainframe-computer-history/ https://www.bosch.com/stories/ibm-mainframe-computer-history... but I swear I saw more pictures somewhere.
formerly_proven 5y ago
In addition to this new 300 mm fab, Bosch already has one 150 mm and one 200 mm fab in Germany. These are mostly for analog stuff, SiC power electronics and MEMS.
- rurban 5y ago
  You are citing wafer sizes. Fabs are measured in mask sizes, the density, not the overall radius. The denser, the higher frequency you can run it, so they won't get that hot. This is a 65nm fab, still running for the last year at half density at 130nm. Neighbors in Dresden have much better fabs,Infinion with 90nm and Global Foundries (ex-AMD) with 22nm. So the Bosch Asics will run at roughly C64 speeds. Good enough for consumer cars.
  - formerly_proven 5y ago
    > You are citing wafer sizes. Fabs are measured in mask sizes, the density, not the overall radius. The fact that these are 150 and 200 mm fabs tells us that these are using machinery from the 80s or early 90s, respectively. So these fabs are probably using several-hundred nm processes. > have much better fabs ... So the Bosch Asics will run at roughly C64 speeds. Good enough for consumer cars. Maybe look at Bosch's semiconductor portfolio? They're not in the business of making commodity parts like processors or MCUs which benefit from being on small nodes. They do specialty mixed-signal, power ASICs and MEMS devices. Smaller is not always better. This is easy to overlook when "silicon" is only though of as CPUs and GPUs.
timdaub 5y ago
Hey, somehow I once did an internship at a subsidiary of Bosch. It's a super cool company structure! Check it on e.g. Wikipedia, it's such that Bosch's profits are sent to a non-profit that spends it on e g. education.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
  Bosch was fined €90+ millions for its role in the dieselgate scandal, too. https://amp.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-diesel-scandal/a-48843405 https://amp.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d...
  - EveYoung 5y ago
    Yes, they messed up but which cooperation hasn't been involved in some scandal.
lispm 5y ago
Story: https://www.bosch.com/stories/bosch-chip-factory-dresden/ https://www.bosch.com/stories/bosch-chip-factory-dresden/
amelius 5y ago
For context, Wikipedia has a list of IC fabrication plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... It looks like this is the third plant of Bosch. The technology node is 65nm.
qkgo 5y ago
I would be very happy to buy a car with the bare minimum number of chips, preferably none at all. No one offers it. Perhaps there will be a retro boutique Ferrari one day for the 0.01%. The rest needs tracking and surveillance.
- proxysna 5y ago
  There is plenty of cars like that. You can import some russian Niva's or Vaz, daewoo's on the low-end. Subaru, Peugeot, Scoda & Kia's base models are relatively low-tech too. Please elaborate on "tracking and surveillance" part.
beebeepka 5y ago
Article is rather light on substance. What nodes, expected output, etc. Still though, I wish them good luck.
rurban 5y ago
The amount of coorp marketing bullshit was outstanding again: > The state-of-the-art technology in Bosch's new semiconductor factory in Dresden shows what outstanding results can be achieved when industry and government join forces," said European Commission Vice-President Margrethe Vestager. who just cites the Bosch press officer, who even dared to mention AI and self-driving cars. In reality this far away from "state of the art" or "outstanding". The plan is a 65nm fab, now they are still running 130nm for a year already. Their neighbors in Dresden are Infineon with a 90nm fab, and Global Foundries (Ex-AMD) with 22nm. This was once state of the art (some decade ago). Current state of the art is 4-7nm in Taiwan, and Germany/Europe is not even close. 130nm is close the masks which can be produced at home, just not at scale. http://sam.zeloof.xyz/ http://sam.zeloof.xyz/ Some plant parts are state of the art though coming from Dresden. Such as the Ardenne wafer coating machines, which are used in Taiwan also.
prometheus76 5y ago
This is only tangentially related, but if you think you should buy a Kitchenaid mixer, you really should look at Bosch's offerings for a mixer instead. More than twice the wattage in the motor. My wife has been making bread with ours multiple times a week for almost 20 years. And you never have to stop the mixing to "scrape down the sides" like you do with Kitchenaid mixers.

684 points by nixass 5y ago

1B is like three last-gen ASML machines, good start I guess, but chip manufacturing can easily absorb 10x of that. As I understand it, there are no plans to turn Europe into a chip leader, they just want to protect automotive supply chain.

brnt 5y ago
This factory won't be purchasing last gen stuff, more like 10 year old gen machines (I heard 25ish nm machines).
- kenhwang 5y ago
  Other sources[1] say its 65nm, and the chips won't even be used for automotive purposes. [1]: https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-fab-2021-06/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/bosch-opens-...
  - sorenjan 5y ago
    Here's a source from Bosch themselves saying "up to 65 nm", which I assume means 65 nm as the smallest feature. They're making "Application-specific integrated circuits (ASICs), and power semiconductors" mainly for the automotive industry, so they're probably counting on that being enough. And what a great time to start production. https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-fab-in-dresden-229248.html https://www.bosch-presse.de/pressportal/de/en/300-mm-wafer-f...
  - nfin 5y ago
    the text says otherwise regarding automotive: "with output of automotive chips to follow from September" (so, you're correct for now until september, but sep. is soon already I would say)
- lallysingh 5y ago
  They'll probably making chips for Bosch parts. IIUC they don't do much advanced computational stuff.
stefan_ 5y ago
No ones using last-gen for automotive.
- coolspot 5y ago
  I was just establishing frame of reference for the investment amout. 1B is barely news-worthy.
- antattack 5y ago
  Tesla is using Navi 23 RDNA in their new S and X models. That's 7nm chip. NN accelerators will likely move to 16nm or better soon. However, you're right that most automotive chips and power electronics use 180 or 65nm process. EDIT: Mobile Eye, EyeQ5 ADAS SoC is already 7nm FinFET.
- GloriousKoji 5y ago
  Maybe for computational stuff but older/bigger process nodes are still very capable (and possibly better) for power related things.
- iseanstevens 5y ago
  Most cars still default to incandescent bulbs for many uses. Few cars attempt to understand the situation around them, beyond a rear camera and maybe ultrasonic reverse sensor for parking. Engine control units have gotten more complicated, but unless high end or EV, It’s mostly mid 90s tech. Disagree?
  - jiofih 5y ago
    I dare you find an incandescent on any car designed in the last five years. It’s insanely inefficient.
    - developer93 5y ago
      And at least in Europe, outlawed since about 10 years
marcodiego 5y ago
Complete outsider doubt: every time I hear about chip manufacturing, somebody talks about ASML machines. Considering that many of the chips we use are built by ASML machines, why isn't Netherlands a top chip manufacturer?
- madengr 5y ago
  They probably don’t have the manpower. The Asian countries produce hardware engineers at 10x that of the west, and with a much larger population, have a vast talent pool.
- icegreentea2 5y ago
  The skills and risks in different parts of the chain are different. Having access to excellent photo-lithography machines is not enough to guarantee having an excellent foundry or process - that much should be evident from ASML supplying TSMC and Intel, and observing Intel's struggles with 10nm. The machines ASML produces allow you make ultra precise and tiny patterns of material. You still need to choose what those materials are, figure out how you're going to create the material (as in what dopants are you adding in what quantities), what your geometry actually is, and on and on and on.
- deleted 5y ago
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- MangoCoffee 5y ago
  different skillset. making equipment and running a profitable fab is like Apple and Orange. Intel with its years of experiences in semis industry and yet Intel is not in the semis equipment business and Intel was in the very early stage of semis industry.
- kalium-xyz 5y ago
  Philips is fractured and a shadow of its former self. They used to both make the machines and the chips now its ASML and NXP
  - berkes 5y ago
sangnoir 5y ago
Isn't ASML a dutch company? How is Europe not a leader? Unless you mean in wafer production/fabs or being on the forefront of shrinking process-nodes. Europe is behind in fabs and has historically underfunded the industry - understandable, as it had worked fine for a long time, with globalization, long supply chains and JIT inventories. Then came nativism, "Tariff Man" and a global pandemic, and Europe had to rethink its long-term strategy.
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  There is more that goes inside a Fab than a litho tool. Granted it’s a major one, but a fabs has 400 process steps. See KLA Tencor, Applied Materials, TEL, Advantest, ASM, Hirata, Fujitsu, Mitsubishi, etc probably dozens more.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Yes, and "dozens more" needs to be changed to hundreds more, with most not being known even to industry insiders. Lots of them are single vendor globally, and are Taiwanese. For example, FOUP cleaning machines are made only by Gudeng (as well as ultra low particle FOUPs themselves,) and don't think that "cleaning machine" is any much less sophisticated than other equipment. It's the size of a truck, made of space age materials to survive fluorines, and costs many megabucks.
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  ASML is a supplier for one part of the overall process yes, but their core innovation is also somewhat limited. Their EUV technology is actually based on a license from the US DOE (from 1999: https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/ https://www.eetimes.com/u-s-gives-ok-to-asml-on-euv-effort/), as part of a consortium of companies that were allowed to benefit from early US R&D into EUV. This is also why the US is able to require ASML to not export EUV machines to China. In my opinion from limited knowledge, being a leader means also being able to change the industry in significant ways. You could argue ASML has contributed to that but I think their dependence on US research indicates they aren’t independently set up to be a leader in this space.
dzonga 5y ago
they can easily do that. that's why I also think Intel will turn things around with it's fabs. You don't need to be manufacturing the latest node chips. Just a couple generations old, will do the trick for automotive, defense and non fashionable electronics. also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful.
- eb0la 5y ago
  > also somehow people forget chips these days are really powerful. Only powerful ;-) ? Just found out some FPGAs have embedded processor cores with them (no need to generate them like in 2000) just because their customers already need that and they have enough gates to use. Other recent stuff like in the RPI2040 microcontroller is a way to code your own "independent" IO sub-programs that run in parallel by a dedicated procesor that does not interfere in your code. Hardware never stops to amaze me.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

The last 3 paragraphs confirms what I think is the most interesting point: > The Bosch plant, which received 200 million euros ($243 million) in state aid under a European Union investment scheme, will start making chips for power tools in July, with output of automotive chips to follow from September. > "The state-of-the-art technology in Bosch's new semiconductor factory in Dresden shows what outstanding results can be achieved when industry and government join forces," said European Commission Vice-President Margrethe Vestager. > Kroeger said Bosch supported a broader strategic push by Brussels to revive Europe’s semiconductor industry. A recently unveiled plan targets doubling the region’s share of global chip production to 20% by 2030. I saw a Guardian headline the other day that said Biden's mission at the G7 meeting is to find allies for a new Cold War against China[1], but the USA isn't actually a reliable partner for the EU, what with Trump 2024 a scenario they can't even rule out yet (thanks to the obstructionist party still being very influential and working very hard to disenfranchise voters). So it makes sense for the EU to ramp up chip production. Interestingly for Bosch or other tech companies, it's probably a no-lose scenario, the EU money will probably keep coming for them. [1] I DDGed "Biden new cold war" but the results are headlines that say he's accelerating it...

fidesomnes 5y ago
> thanks to the obstructionist party still being very influential and working very hard to disenfranchise voters. Fantastic. Thanks for reminding me to vote for them a third time in a row.
dmix 5y ago
Curious you’re focusing on US (politics) and not China/Taiwan/SEA… is that really relevant considering they have enough capital and Germany has plenty of manufacturing? The only thing relevant for the US re risking starting this niche is brain drain and talent. The market is always growing, they already have vertical demand (power tools and simple car chips), and new more-local competition can never be dismissed. It always comes down to the people at the end of the day. Your 2nd paragraph quote where they are declaring this a successful example of public/private just because the factory was built is a bit concerning to me. They’ve mearly just begun.

gpm 5y ago

I never realized Bosch was so big (77 billion euros in annual revenue). The corporate structure is also really interesting. 92% owned by charity, 7% by the bosch family, 0.01% by the this trust made up of old membership, family, and "eminent people from the industry", but that last 0.01% has 93% of the vote. I'm now curious how this all works in practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH#Corporate_affairs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bosch_GmbH#Corporate_af...

RC_ITR 5y ago
Like a lot of Family-owned European companies (Ikea comes to mind as well), it's a thinly veiled employment opportunity for the heirs that does very little actual charity. The family is heavily involved in board selection, & it's really just an elaborate tax scheme. Seriously, look at their 'project list,' a film award is #2! https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/project-search https://www.bosch-stiftung.de/en/project-search
- CPLX 5y ago
  Seems sort of better than the alternative though isn’t it, ie the American model where industrial companies are endlessly looted by management, investment bankers, and private equity firms via a never ending series of mergers and divestments and massive debt loads. It may not be charity, but at least it’s stable.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    It's not an either-or question. The US has similar style tax-avoidance structures that may sponsor a little-league team or classical music concert to maintain their public image. And Europe has their own corporate raiders -- did you follow the latest drama between Porsche and VW? That failed takeover bid forced out the Porsche CEO but at least he had a $200M golden parachute.
    - realityking 5y ago
      Calling it “the latest drama” might be accurate (I don’t think there’s more recent drama) but it obscures the fact that this particular drama was resolved 12 years ago with VW buying Porsche and the Porsche shareholders becoming the largest VW shareholders.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=bosch+cheating+software https://www.google.com/search?q=bosch+cheating+software Oh well, now they can do it in hardware, too. Huzzah.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
Here: as a badge of honor, I'd like to garner a few more downvotes from fans of criminal malfeasance. I'm deeply sorry that the great tradition of German engineering has been besmirched by swindlers, and those swindlers have not been roundly denounced by Germans themselves.
- bernulli 5y ago
  Not a unique German thing, I am afraid, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal "A practice by diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NO x) by more than 10 times.[1] ICCT and ADAC showed the biggest deviations from Volvo, Renault, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroën and Fiat."
- shkkmo 5y ago
  I suspect you are being downvoted for the low effort comment that is just a google search link with no context or commentary. I don't think it particularly has anything to do with the content since few people are going to expend the effort figuring out what you are talking about.
- anunnymouse 5y ago
  Remember that time you did something wrong? I'll make sure to bring that up next time I read an article about something you did, regardless of what what you did wrong or what the article is about.

antattack 5y ago

Bosch started the project way before chip shortage, around 2017 [1] and opening it right on schedule. This is the second factory of this type, good foresight by Germans and EU. [1]https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-bosch-to-invest-1-bln-euros-in-dresden-semiconductor-plant-idUSL8N1JC2GE https://www.reuters.com/article/bosch-factory/robert-bosch-t...

AceJohnny2 5y ago
> good foresight I'd call it luck. I doubt that in the planning stages they could anticipate the auto industry order-then-Pandemic-cancel-then-order-again wave that messed up the logistics of the semiconductor industry.
- antattack 5y ago
  Deterioration of US-China (and US - Europe too) relations might have contributed to to the decision. Also, at that time it was obvious that power electronics was going to be in high demand, especially of SiC type.
- float4 5y ago
  It's not about the pandemic or luck. It has to do with strategy, more independence etc.
- lstoll 5y ago
  you don't have to predict that exact scenario to know that domestic semiconductor manufacturing is a good idea.
- igalic 5y ago
  It has nothing to do with the pandemic, but the strategy and investment in reducing reliance on external (to the EU, and Germany in particular) suppliers is not luck.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Absolutely. Even with the US, as much as Europe & the US are more aligned than not on geopolitical issues, the last 4-5 years have shown that is not guaranteed to continue indefinitely. And in terms of the fragility of the world's industrial and economic engines, perhaps this is a realization that globalization has gone too far and the pendulum needs to swing more towards slightly higher self-sufficiency. Not even for some philosophy of anti-globalism, but merely because things are too brittle as they are now.

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notyourav 5y ago

Bosch is going all-in for IoT. CEO/Borad realized they need to produce own chips for that a couple of years back and made the single biggest invest decision. Automotive also uses lot's of ASICs. Too bad it's an LLC (GmbH), can't buy stocks.

jiofih 5y ago
Their subsidiary in India is publicly traded.

jollybean 5y ago

It seems like a smart move: do something safer to start to provide domestic supply. But it also provides a stepping point for something more more aggressive if that's the future they want to move in. The UK, given Brexit, needs to make at least 2 moves like this. And the US needs to make 5.

pyronode 5y ago

FeelTheBerns 5y ago

Our Bosch dishwasher is absolutely incredible. Hands down best appliance I've ever owned.

megablast 5y ago
My too dishwashers are pretty good too. Ive had them for ages, since I was born.
PhantomGremlin 5y ago
All appliances have problems. E.g. In 2009, Bosch issued a voluntary recall on certain model dishwashers that could overheat and pose a fire risk to consumers. In 2013, a second global recall was issued and covered more than five million machines. https://www.classaction.org/bosch-dishwasher-fire https://www.classaction.org/bosch-dishwasher-fire But 2013 was so long ago in Internet years, wasn't it? We own a Bosch dishwasher. We bought it knowing about their previous problems, because it was very quiet. The only thing I dislike about it is it insists on beeping every 10 minutes after completing a load. STFU, I know the dishes are clean!!! Ironically, our previous non-Bosch dishwasher caught fire. Literally.
- aitchnyu 5y ago
  Wish they took a page from Peopleware and make a softer buzz. The authors insisted everybody at the office put cotton over their office phones so they are not jarring each time they ring.
Trollmann 5y ago
Bosch household appliances aren‘t built by Bosch but BSH [1] instead. (They are still great) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSH_Hausgeräte
- Dumbdo 5y ago
  But BSH is a direct child company of Bosch, you can even get those products for a discount as a (automotive) Bosch employee. Most Bosch divisions are separate child companies. It's just that BSH is very small part of Bosch compared to the automotive parts of Bosch.

justicezyx 5y ago

The article has no details of the plants technology. Anyone here has more information about the projected products and other technical detail

KingOfCoders 5y ago

Sadly no chips for dishwashers, I'm still waiting for my Miele dishwasher because no chips, no ETA.

unholythree 5y ago

I remember stumbling across a bunch of pictures of Bosch getting a brand new IBM System/370-165 mainframe circa 1970 that were pretty great. I especially liked how all the IBM installers were doing manual labor with their ties on. link: https://www.bosch.com/stories/ibm-mainframe-computer-history/ https://www.bosch.com/stories/ibm-mainframe-computer-history... but I swear I saw more pictures somewhere.

formerly_proven 5y ago

In addition to this new 300 mm fab, Bosch already has one 150 mm and one 200 mm fab in Germany. These are mostly for analog stuff, SiC power electronics and MEMS.

rurban 5y ago
You are citing wafer sizes. Fabs are measured in mask sizes, the density, not the overall radius. The denser, the higher frequency you can run it, so they won't get that hot. This is a 65nm fab, still running for the last year at half density at 130nm. Neighbors in Dresden have much better fabs,Infinion with 90nm and Global Foundries (ex-AMD) with 22nm. So the Bosch Asics will run at roughly C64 speeds. Good enough for consumer cars.
- formerly_proven 5y ago
  > You are citing wafer sizes. Fabs are measured in mask sizes, the density, not the overall radius. The fact that these are 150 and 200 mm fabs tells us that these are using machinery from the 80s or early 90s, respectively. So these fabs are probably using several-hundred nm processes. > have much better fabs ... So the Bosch Asics will run at roughly C64 speeds. Good enough for consumer cars. Maybe look at Bosch's semiconductor portfolio? They're not in the business of making commodity parts like processors or MCUs which benefit from being on small nodes. They do specialty mixed-signal, power ASICs and MEMS devices. Smaller is not always better. This is easy to overlook when "silicon" is only though of as CPUs and GPUs.

timdaub 5y ago

Hey, somehow I once did an internship at a subsidiary of Bosch. It's a super cool company structure! Check it on e.g. Wikipedia, it's such that Bosch's profits are sent to a non-profit that spends it on e g. education.

rcMgD2BwE72F 5y ago
Bosch was fined €90+ millions for its role in the dieselgate scandal, too. https://amp.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-diesel-scandal/a-48843405 https://amp.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d...
- EveYoung 5y ago
  Yes, they messed up but which cooperation hasn't been involved in some scandal.

lispm 5y ago

Story: https://www.bosch.com/stories/bosch-chip-factory-dresden/ https://www.bosch.com/stories/bosch-chip-factory-dresden/

amelius 5y ago

For context, Wikipedia has a list of IC fabrication plants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... It looks like this is the third plant of Bosch. The technology node is 65nm.

qkgo 5y ago

I would be very happy to buy a car with the bare minimum number of chips, preferably none at all. No one offers it. Perhaps there will be a retro boutique Ferrari one day for the 0.01%. The rest needs tracking and surveillance.

proxysna 5y ago
There is plenty of cars like that. You can import some russian Niva's or Vaz, daewoo's on the low-end. Subaru, Peugeot, Scoda & Kia's base models are relatively low-tech too. Please elaborate on "tracking and surveillance" part.

beebeepka 5y ago

Article is rather light on substance. What nodes, expected output, etc. Still though, I wish them good luck.

rurban 5y ago

The amount of coorp marketing bullshit was outstanding again: > The state-of-the-art technology in Bosch's new semiconductor factory in Dresden shows what outstanding results can be achieved when industry and government join forces," said European Commission Vice-President Margrethe Vestager. who just cites the Bosch press officer, who even dared to mention AI and self-driving cars. In reality this far away from "state of the art" or "outstanding". The plan is a 65nm fab, now they are still running 130nm for a year already. Their neighbors in Dresden are Infineon with a 90nm fab, and Global Foundries (Ex-AMD) with 22nm. This was once state of the art (some decade ago). Current state of the art is 4-7nm in Taiwan, and Germany/Europe is not even close. 130nm is close the masks which can be produced at home, just not at scale. http://sam.zeloof.xyz/ http://sam.zeloof.xyz/ Some plant parts are state of the art though coming from Dresden. Such as the Ardenne wafer coating machines, which are used in Taiwan also.

prometheus76 5y ago

This is only tangentially related, but if you think you should buy a Kitchenaid mixer, you really should look at Bosch's offerings for a mixer instead. More than twice the wattage in the motor. My wife has been making bread with ours multiple times a week for almost 20 years. And you never have to stop the mixing to "scrape down the sides" like you do with Kitchenaid mixers.