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For me, the utility of being at home versus being at the office is massive. If I need a 15 minute break, I can start a load of laundry, or run the dishwasher, o

For me, the utility of being at home versus being at the office is massive. If I need a 15 minute break, I can start a load of laundry, or run the dishwasher, or do some other chore. I can wake up later since I don't have a commute. I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. I can wear as comfortable clothing as I desire. I can delay my shower until after my daily workout (Which I can do since my workout equipment is at home). I can control my environment so there are as many or as few distractions as i like. I can put on videos or audio that might not be considered work appropriate. I can use speakers since no one is around me to hear the sound. The number and magnitude of inconveniences we subject ourselves to by heading to an office every day has been fully revealed. I will do all I can to work from home for the rest of my life.

apexalpha 5y ago
Agreed! I had an hour-long one way commute too and it's been great. My work day went from 11 hours to 9 at most. I have more time to cook, I can get up later of earlier, I can do laundry, dishwasher etc... My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. I do miss my colleagues as well, but two days a week should be enough to garner most weekly advantages of being in the same place. And it's not just convenience, either. 2 days in office would open up immense possibilities for me regarding housing, I can live in a cheaper home outside the big city and still commute less than 10 hours a week.
- mcot2 5y ago
  I suspect the partial in-office/wfh arrangement will be fairly rare. Office space is costly to use only 2 days a week. Companies can do hoteling but it breaks down when you have very technical employees who like very particular desk setups (multiple monitors, chair positions, special keyboards/mice). The more common arrangement will probably be mostly WFH but meet up occsionally in some per-hour rented office for collaboration. Sucks for WeWork to have blown itself up before this :).
  - mcguire 5y ago
    Or if everyone's two days is Tuesday and Wednesday. :-)
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      Just spread it around so all five days get coverage.
  - Izkata 5y ago
    > Office space is costly to use only 2 days a week. So downsize. We were doing partial WFH before the pandemic because our office had more people than seats (open office seating); everyone picked different days they preferred for home and office, and the office ended up mostly full most days.
- slumdev 5y ago
  > My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. Mine is pushing some similar nonsense. I don't think anyone thought about it too hard: 1. I still have to live within a reasonable driving distance of the main office. 2. I still have to maintain a home office, sacrificing valuable square footage without being reimbursed for its use. 3. I still have to furnish this home office, without being reimbursed for anything except computer accessories.
  - apexalpha 5y ago
    1. Why? I can live 2 hours from my office and still have a total weekly commute that is less than my pre-pandemic commute. If I can somehow fix an overnight in the city it's even less. 2. This is true, although you get 'reimbursed' for that by not commuting. And since you don't commute you can live somewhere cheaper, or get a bigger house for the same price. 3. My company paid for all that, so no issue here.
    - slumdev 5y ago
      Two hours from your office? Is this hyperbole? If you live two hours from your office and go in for three days per week, that's 2h per leg * 2 legs per day * 3 days per week = 12 hours per week on the road. You were spending more than 12 hours per week in traffic? The average commute in the United States is a little less than 30 minutes [1]. That's 5 hours per week for someone who works five days per week. 1. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...
      - apexalpha 5y ago
        I used to commute 1 hour one way pre Covid, so 10 hours per week. If I go into the office for only 2 days a week I could live twice as far from my workplace and still only commute 8 hours a week. I was meaning to say that even with 2 days in-Office per week it opens up possibilities regarding housing. I was spending 1,5 hours per day in a train, and walking to the station for 10 minutes or so, yes.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  > My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. That's exactly the same as me. Company is talking about everyone coming back in for 3/2 starting in mid-September. My response is I'll see you for 2/3. I have a 20 minute commute which isn't too onerous, and I like having some in-office time as I find it valuable. What will really be the test for me is how I feel after a month or two of the kids being back in school. Right now being home is still fairly social for me. Previous times I've tried to work remotely it was the loneliness of having only myself in the house for days on end that killed it for me. I'm also a bit of a realist, though. Being remote (or at least 'more remote' than the rest of the team) is a serious career limit, so if everyone else starts spending most of their time in the office, I will probably follow along.
- ub99 5y ago
  Also, depending on the type of commute, I need to factor in the exhaustion that comes with using public transportation like Bart. So for me it was an hour each way plus a substantial time to decompress from standing in a packed sweaty train. In the evening it usually meant that I was just too tired to do anything else after work.
- davidgerard 5y ago
  Before the pandemic I did a lot of WFH, looking after my chronically ill partner. I basically got my face-to-face load out the way on a Monday, which was Meeting Day.
me_me_me 5y ago
Its hard to come up with arguments for working from office when you can save 2 hours of commute. Time alone is huge. With that standard 8h work 8h personal time 8h sleep. Commute eats up 1/4 of your personal time.
- martin_a 5y ago
  > Time alone is huge. Don't forget that could also be more time with your loved ones, like your partner, your children or even your pets. That's a big deal for lots of people and very understandable. edit: It's also more time for _everything else_. Personally, I really enjoy cooking lunch and sitting on my balcony for half an hour, something I can't do when working from the office.
  - spearo77 5y ago
    I parsed that quote differently.. the way I think they meant the phrase is– The factor of time itself is huge (no matter how you end up using it)
  - pickle-wizard 5y ago
    The location flexibility is big too. I live in Austin, and my parents live in Kansas. I drove up to Kansas this past Saturday and will work from up here and drive back next Saturday. I've worked from home for a few years now, and before that I would have to take vacation time to go visit them.
    - RSHEPP 5y ago
      For real. My wife picked up travel nursing and it's been a huge life improvement. Just check the taxes in the states you are working in. I have 25 work days in Illinois without income taxes, but all states are different.
      - ghaff 5y ago
        There have been some efforts to rationalize this at the federal level but AFAIK they haven't gone anywhere. And some states seem to basically have zero thresholds for this and enforcement for business travel seems to be ratcheting up. Some people are probably going to find that they need to file more state tax returns.
mgkimsal 5y ago
I go to a coworking space. Having some semblance of separating home from 'work' (even though I do sometimes 'work' from home) helps. I did total 'work from home' - working out of a converted bedroom - for years, and... it's functional, but the process/ritual of leaving and coming back does help me. I still 'work remote', as a freelancer. I have had engagements where I go to a client's offices, sometimes for somewhat extended periods of time. I will travel if needed. But the majority of work I do is still done on terms I have some control over, which, ultimately, I think is the key part of the whole discussion. Where I work, what equipment, what hours, when/where I travel, what I wear, etc - things you were mentioning above - having control over those is key, regardless of whether you want to work from home or in an office or somewhere in between.
- cbm-vic-20 5y ago
  My neighbor commutes to "work" in the morning by taking a 20 minute bike ride, and commutes "home" by doing the same route in reverse.
  - ub99 5y ago
    Ha! That’s a genius idea! I might start going on morning/evening “commute” walks too.
- tinyhouse 5y ago
  That's the key for me. I think every remote company should pay for co-working space for their employees if they choose to. Also, it's important that co-working spaces design it to be more like a quiet office with stations with big screens etc. Not like the old co-working concept where it's like a cafe, cramping multiple people together. I recall once interviewing at a startup. Their office was in a co-working space. When I arrived in the morning I knew after 5 minutes that I'm not going to work there. The entire team of 4 people, including the CTO who was supposed to be my manager, were sitting together in a tiny room with zero privacy.
  - pnutjam 5y ago
    I would never use a co-working space. I want to be home, not in some pseudo office. I also wonder how the end of pandemic norms will effect people who claim they want to be in the office. If they can get their socialization outside the office, we could see a resurgence of neighborhood clubs.
cm2187 5y ago
Agree with all of this, but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. Also all the interactions are going through your employers systems, which are all recorded. So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). It was fine the first 6 months of working from home but I feel increasingly professionally isolated, not knowing what is going on, even though I spend half of my day talking to people on a headset.
- moate 5y ago
  I know plenty of people, myself included, who consider most of what you described as a blessing. Not having to have "how are the kids?" conversations and instead being able to play a video game or watch a TV show during some down time is worth every bit of company gossip I'm missing.
- system16 5y ago
  > but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. That's a small price I'm willing to pay. > So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). Just speaking personally, any company I've worked at where gossip/whispering/staff looking over their shoulders and feel the need complain/etc. were important factors was not an environment I wanted to be a part of anyway.
- nkozyra 5y ago
  > but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. This is another positive. > So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). I'm not sure what "corporate incorrect" means here, but gossip is generally a net negative in the workplace that tends to build cliques and factions that often manifest in a bigger problem. Assuredly there are other non-company channels to do those things, but the question is ... why?
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    A problem for whom? Unionisation is a net positive for everyone not interested in profit; a good union ensures good working environments which improve efficiency (amount achieved per time spent), and it reduces worker exploitation (e.g. fairer compensation for labour). How do you arrange something like that behind your boss's back if you can only communicate with your colleagues via corporate-approved communication channels?
michaelbuckbee 5y ago
The biggest one in this is the 10 hours per week of commute, which if anything actually is a lower estimate of the "all in" time commuting takes. In a normal job that's 25% of your time that's flatly uncompensated, who would opt for that.
- hervature 5y ago
  Another equivalent view point is that your commute was being compensated and that now employers will begin to pay less as the supply of people who are willing to work remote increase.
lukifer 5y ago
Hear, hear. As someone with dietary restrictions, the ability to make lunch at home every day is also huge (to say nothing of not being in an office which "helpfully" offers the temptation of junk food during moments of stress).
- derwiki 5y ago
  I thought I would gain weight from lack of commute exercise, but healthier eating has meant a net loss for me.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I guess it depends on the type of job, but for me (software engineering), WFH works extremely well. I often -often, not "sometimes"- get more done by 8AM, than I used to get done in over half a day (or even the entire day) at the office. WFH won't work for everyone. It takes real self-discipline, and not everyone considers home to be a suitable place for work. Even in these cases, I think we'll be seeing alternatives, like small "work hubs," ala WeWork, that are close to people's homes, and allow them to have a lot more autonomy than the main office.
- sanitycheck 5y ago
  I've worked from home for years, and found the same thing - it's made me look like, maybe not a 10X dev but definitely 2X. But now everyone else I deal with is WFH too and... It turns out they don't appear to be benefiting in the same way and performance has probably dropped on average. Give it a couple of years and most people will be back in the office as before, I expect.
- almost_usual 5y ago
  I’m the same I had been WFH in SF for at least two years and joined a new employer pre covid that required me to go into the office. Once COVID hit my manager was really surprised by how much more productive I was. At this point we’re on a flex schedule going back, will see how that goes. My hope is two days in the office for meeting days or interviews, rest engineering time at home.
- ehnto 5y ago
  I have gained a kind of hyper-focus and desire to do the work I had entirely lost thanks to the 9-5 grind, I've been working from home since before covid too. 9-5 5 day weeks seem almost designed to cause that kind of long-tail unproductivity.
dec0dedab0de 5y ago
I've been working from home for years, and while all the things you listed are huge. The number one thing I missed the most in the 20 or so times I've been to the office in the last 7 years, is having my own bathroom. That said, I miss going out to lunch, accidentally meeting people from other teams, reading on the train, meeting friends in the city right after work, and just being around people in general. I wish I could get an in office part time job that paid benefits, but I don't think those exist.
Wowfunhappy 5y ago
A one hour commute is a very long commute. Not an uncommonly long commute, perhaps, but only because—particularly in the US—we’ve made some really unfortunate choices with regard to city planning. It shouldn’t be this way.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Pretty much anyplace where someone commutes into a city from comfortably outside the city is going to have a substantial commute. I'm actually very convenient to a decent commuter rail system to a city with a good mass transit system. And it would take me around 90 minutes door to door to commute in. It would be shorter if I lived closer in but it would be hard to be much under an hour.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago
    I was curious about this so had to check. I live in a fairly large city with decent transit options (for the US), and (notably) a high-speed commuter rail system going into the city. I'm considering moving out of the city in a year or so, and if I do I want to be convenient to a station on that rail system. Using a friend's address in the suburbs as a proxy (who lives near where I might be moving), Google Maps puts the travel time from there to my office at 32 minutes via commuter rail. That's with an 8 minute walk and 11 minute walk on either side, but if you assume a bike ride rather than a walk I'd imagine you can cut each of those down by at least half. The rail line has headways of a little under 15 minutes at rush hour, so that could possibly extend the trip a little bit if your timing's not perfect, but still well under an hour. Of course if you need multiple transfers to get to your destination (and your local transit system doesn't have very short headways) that will increase your travel time substantially. The commuter line I'm thinking of takes you right into the heart of the city where many jobs are though (including my own) so that's not always a concern.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      That's probably an unusually good commuter rail system. I'm about a 10 minute drive from a less frequent commuter rail, so figure 15 minutes out the door until the scheduled train comes. There don't seem to be any express trains running right now so it's over an hour into the city and that's assuming I don't need to catch a subway on the other end--which I would have to do to go to my company's city office. So, for me, at least 90 minutes--and that's for someone fairly far out (it would also take me a good 60 minutes to go in by car with nominal traffic but more like 90 anywhere near rush hour even leaving early) but convenient to a rail line. I actually did this for a time, fortunately not every day but frequently enough. Wouldn't really have been sustainable long term.
dekhn 5y ago
Yep. I just changed jobs to have a shorter commute to support my wife and children better, and also expect to only be in the office ~3 days a week. Working from home has been an absolute boon to me. I've done partial WFH for my entire career and it feels totally natural to me. I do miss being in the office, maybe once a week or so.
subpixel 5y ago
I recently committed to a 40m commute for the next three years to take my young child to our chosen school. I rented a desk near the school b/c of course 40m is too far for multiple round-trips each day. I used to commute an hour pre-pandemic so I thought, how bad can it be? Let me tell you - after a year of working at home, any commute feels like a giant waste of time and energy, which of course it is. I cherish the time with by child, but being strapped into a car seat in the back of the car is hardly quality time.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  My first response is: Your poor kid has to be strapped into a car seat for an hour and a half every day? That sounds aweful.
  - subpixel 5y ago
    We live in a paradise that is closer to a puffin colony than the nearest streetlight, so we accept the rough edges.
  - plank_time 5y ago
    You sound like you need to learn more empathy and how to be less judgmental.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
stjohnswarts 5y ago
I'm not gonna lie, it lowers my stress levels by at least half. The sheer fact that people can't randomly drop by and I can more control the flow of my day by ignoring email and slack until reasonable interval checks. People can still get me if there's an "emergency" but those are few and far between.
deleted 5y ago
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bsharitt 5y ago
> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Realizing I was basically using an entire work day or even a little more per week just to commute was what made me put in the effort to move to remote work(pre-pandemic by a couple years). And once I started, I noticed the little niceties as you mentioned and it would take something drastic to get me back into an office again.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> If I need a 15 minute break, I can start a load of laundry, or run the dishwasher, or do some other chore. That is not universal. That is a subset of work-from-home. Many people working from home can no more step away for a break than they would if at the office. For instance, customer support/contact people cannot just step away from the phone. Others working at home have employer systems that monitor them live. Any unscheduled breaks get noticed and recorded. Even amongst highly-paid "knowledge workers" there are issues. I do occasional home days but am not able to take breaks. At any time one of my five bosses might call. We don't have any monitoring software but they expect me at my desk ready to respond, not walking the dog or doing laundry.
- walterlb 5y ago
  Five bosses? I'm genuinely curious how this works
  - teddyh 5y ago
    At least it’s fewer than eight.
  - sosborn 5y ago
    My guess is that it doesn't work as well as four bosses.
    - jholman 5y ago
      I laughed and upvoted, but you never know. Maybe the utility curve turns a corner.
- mrtranscendence 5y ago
  Or my talk therapist girlfriend, for whom working from home still means having phone or video appointments starting and ending every hour. Though at least she can take a short break if someone no-shows (most of that time is for doing notes). I suspect most people working from home have some opportunity to take breaks here and there, though. I'm aware of certain professions with invasive monitoring (I've seen nurses that work for pharmaceutical companies report this), but it doesn't seem to be particularly widespread. I'm not familiar with anyone in my personal life who have an expectation of immediate response to superiors (though on the rare case the CEO contacts you, you should make sure to get on that pretty quickly ... but that's why I get email on my phone/watch).
earnesti 5y ago
The biggest perk for me is the ability to hit that bong in a middle of work day, while watching weird ass japanese hentai with my surround sound home cinema.
- Avalaxy 5y ago
  > The biggest perk for me is the ability to hit that bong in a middle of work day I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but how could you possibly be productive after that?
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    It really depends on the type, certain strains can make one more productive potentially. At least that's what I've heard from others.
  - meowkit 5y ago
    Going along with the other reply to this comment, there are a select few individuals who can handle low/medium doses of sativa strains and be shockingly productive. I use it for focusing on purely creative works, but I definitely can’t use it in a professional setting.
- golergka 5y ago
  Depending on your company culture, you could do that in the office as well. In some companies I worked at, weed brakes were an everyday occurrence for engineering, but gamedev in general and Tel Aviv in particular are a bit different from the usual white-collar office culture.
  - 1_player 5y ago
    Though I'm sure the hentai lunch breaks aren't on the list of perks at even the most relaxed of FAANGs. No idea though, I'm pretty far removed from that world.
    - golergka 5y ago
golergka 5y ago
Laundry? I regularly take a 20-minute bath in the middle of my workday. With salt, bubbles, scent candles and a book. Why would I ever go back to the office?
- failwhaleshark 5y ago
  No bath bombs? How do Zoom calls work? Do you just throw on an Afghan monk-style or use a Snap filter?
  - golergka 5y ago
    I haven't had a single zoom call in my current company since the interview. Audio calls are extremely rare, one in 4 months on average. I've never been so psychologically stable and productive in my entire working life.
Clubber 5y ago
Just to add to the plusses you already mentioned, the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere just by the practice of driving to the office everyday is immense.
- musicale 5y ago
  The best thing about the pandemic has been improved air quality. Do we really want to go back? https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149747 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149747
stadium 5y ago
My mental model on commute time is that every 1 hour is a year of my life wasted over a 24 year career. More than that if I work for more than 24 years.
wolfretcrap 5y ago
I 3d print and make useful things for my house on CNC mill machine I received few months back. At this point if a company wants me back in office, I'll go and work for the one which doesn't really there's no value in being packed in a shop with people who don't want to be with you. It's other thing to orchestrate something by purchasing bit of inputs from everyone on team.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Agreed with the above. I'll also add that for many years my wife and I have had the goal of living in Europe (we're Americans) but finding suitable work in Europe seemed nearly impossible: * EU work visas seem very hard to get * EU software jobs seem to pay ~40% less than comparable American jobs before taxes (and EU taxes are more significant)--this leaves little slack for travel * My wife's field is communications/marketing and she's pretty specialized to English/American-culture and the demand is quite a lot lower for her industry than mine Then there's the hassle of long-term remote: figuring out taxes, selling our home, the logistics and costs of moving those possessions we're unwilling to sell to Europe, etc. Work-from-home enables us to work from Europe for a few months at a time--we'll have to work odd hours (~2pm-9pm iirc) and we'll probably have to pay Europe rent and our American mortgage; however, we'll probably take most of our vacation during our abroad months so the odd hours will only apply for a few weeks and we can afford the additional housing cost (especially if we save for it during the months we're in the US). I think the tax situation should be okay since we'll be in the US for the majority of the year, but I need to find out for sure.
- htrp 5y ago
  IANAL but technically you working remote from Europe on a tourist visa is a violation of a bunch of immigration laws (and probably some tax treaties). Will your firm catch you? Likely not if you are only working abroad for a few weeks, if you're doing it for longer, you'll probably get an email asking for clarification on your tax status (at best). At worst, they'll pull your VPN logs and demand that you get back to the states before you trigger some payroll issues.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to look into this more deeply. I'm curious if anyone knows where the appropriate place to ask would be (foreign embassy?). FWIW, I'm not planning to hide this from my firm.
  - ehnto 5y ago
    It does really depend on the country and visa, so certainly look into it. It's not a default no-no, and tax treaties often exist to make international economic activity easier not harder. My country has a tax-treaty with the country I do most of my work for, and so I only pay taxes in one not the other. Without such a treaty I'd have to pay taxes in both countries and it would make it unviable.
teekert 5y ago
All of this +: I can just start calling people, no need to find a room with my laptop where I only have the screen of that laptop, just to not disturb the others in the open office. I have breakfast with the kids, am home for package/groceries deliveries. I have much better relations with colleagues in other countries because cam on is the default and we are not with a group of locals and 2 people on cam. It's a big equalizer. I like it like this and would be annoyed as well if this was taken from me.
agumonkey 5y ago
I think it would be good to sum all the commute free week - time saved - gas saved - car wear saved ..
twobitshifter 5y ago
The pandemic has flipped things on their head. Before it was “how can I know that you’d be productive outside of the office?” and now it’s “how is the office is any way necessary or an improvement on working from home?” Businesses have to justify offices and cubicles to their workers but from all of the arguments I’ve read, they’re coming up short.
pentae 5y ago
Not only that but when you combine it with having the freedom to relocate to a low cost of living destination suit your optimal lifestyle the benefits stack up even more. For example living 15 minutes to world class hiking trails or surf spots. Not having to take a flight or drive for hours each way to go do those things on weekends you can now do them every day before or after work. Getting to live in a large house out in nature, far away from the city crowds. It's a game changer
- mlrtime 5y ago
  Many fully remote companies are giving reduction of pay from HCOL cities... this still may work out but not always a straight comparison.
flexie 5y ago
This, and - Walk kids to school in the mornings, pick them up in afternoons - Buy groceries when it suits you in the middle of the day. - Do sports in the middle of the day - Start slow cooking during the day - Avoid being called into pointless meetings (no-one can see that you are actually not in another meeting or phone call) - Take breaks with your wife
ericmcer 5y ago
You are pitching being able to do laundry, dishes, clean, etc. as a perk. I feel like it’s a negative as part of my mental space is occupied by household chores as well. Blending errands and cleaning with meetings and focused work is a pain now. It feels like I’m doing an insane multitasking balancing act most days.
- ulfw 5y ago
  How did you cope before? Who did all this for you before?
  - sidlls 5y ago
    In the evenings and on weekends.
    - azemetre 5y ago
      Wouldn't you rather keep evenings/weekends free of chores and do some of them during the work week? That's what I prefer and do at least.
    - brewdad 5y ago
      So keep doing them on weekends or evenings if that works best for you. WFH gives you the option of doing them at other times if that meets your needs better.
  - ericmcer 5y ago
    my mommy
- nickstinemates 5y ago
  I read it as pitching flexibility in your schedule as a perk. The details are the details (and vary from person to person)
- hrktb 5y ago
  This as much as you want to do it though. I share OP's view point, but will also let those house keeping tasks rote away for a while if I'm not in the mood too. They'll still need to be done at some point, but now we have more choice on when we want to do it, and not just between 8PM and 8 AM or only on weekends, as it was the case before.
whoomp12342 5y ago
I can microwave fish and have no shade thrown at me
dougmwne 5y ago
I've been doing WFH for 5 years and feel like the rest of the world just caught on. In addition to what you mention: - Control of food. No more bagels or carb dumping ground. No more limited food options. My own kitchen. - Control of equipment. Need a 4k monitor? Need a trackball? No approvals needed. - Control of ergonomics. Get exactly the chair you need. Get an electric height adjustable desk without going through facilities. - Control temperature. Never be too hot or cold. - So many great options for breaks. Walk down the street. Meditate in the garden. Play Beatsaber. Take a nap, naps are magic. - Control your lighting. Good color temperature and comfortable brightness make the space more relaxing and can aid sleep and wakefulness. - The ultimate corner office. Privacy and separate space that you can personalize to your heart's content. - Location flexibility. Work from a beach rental. Do a city-stay near a WeWork. Find a mountain cabin with high speed internet. Move to a new state without having to change jobs. - Finances. Live in a low tax state. Have an older car. Spend less on clothes, lunches, parking, gas, tolls. Live in cheaper square footage without worrying about what it does to your commute. - Stress. More emotional speration between you and your work. Relationships are through Zoom and require less emotional investment. Work forms less a part of your identity and changing it involves fewer changes to your daily routine. - Caffeine. With more tools to manage your wakefulness, less need to lean on the crutch of caffeine. For me, less caffeine means less alcohol as well. Other people are free to have their opinions that they don't like WFH or can't wait to get back into the office. For me, I really struggle to understand how you cannot love it. With total control of my environment, I can easily correct for minor downsides such as needing to maintain work-life balance and good social connections. After years of optimization, I have a better quality of life than our CEO. I'd be insane to give it up.
- kat 5y ago
  I liked how to worded "emotional separation" The reduction in my stress has been amazing, especially considering we've been in the middle of covid. My moods are way better regulated now. I'm no longer trying to ignore my angry office mate who's muttering under his breath. I didn't realize how much upset people influence my own mood. I thought I was good at ignoring angry people, but the action of ignoring took up a lot more energy than I previously thought. My biggest worry about back-to-office is how I'm going to managed my increased stress levels.
m463 5y ago
I found scrubs (pants) are ultra-comfortable and industrial strength functional.
- failwhaleshark 5y ago
  Flight suits are adult onesies. And resistant to fire and McDonald's coffee.
snarf21 5y ago
I'm glad this works for you & others and that you are happy. However, every time WFH comes up here, people present their preferences as universally better or best. I hate WFH but that is my preference. I really wish these discussions were more about how happy people are that they now have a choice instead of things being so authoritative. For clarity, I enjoy having a hard separation between home and work. If I'm at home, I'm more likely to be distracted with chores instead of working. I leave my laptop at work so I don't need to work off hours unless there is an emergency. I enjoy my 30 minute commute. I listen to podcasts or design board games. I understand I could do those at home, but I'm more likely to just watch a show or something instead of dedicating time to just listening to a podcast. I enjoy being around friends that I've worked with off and on for over 20 years. We go to lunch together and talk about life. Sometimes we play board games at lunch. I enjoy collaborating over a white board trying to solve a problem. It is sooo much easier to do that in person. I personally feel more part of a team in person than I do if we just communicate via Slack. But these are just the things that work for me. I don't expect anyone else to feel the way I do but there are lots of others out there like me too. I'm glad more companies have options for those with a preference.
- b3morales 5y ago
  Well said. Indeed, the whole "battle" over WFH should be about giving people the ability to choose what works best for them, not forcing either option. And that may even change for a particular person from year to year or job to job.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    I agree. But the "battle" is at least partly around: - People who are technically allowed to WFH but who are concerned that co-workers/managers will pressure them to come in anyway and - People who want to come back into an office most days but don't want to come into a ghost town with most meetings over video anyway.
    - coliveira 5y ago
      > People who want to come back into an office most days but don't want to come into a ghost town with most meetings over video anyway. I think this battle is lost. Even if people go back to offices, a lot of meetings will happen over video anyway. This has been the norm in some large companies already.
wdb 5y ago
One of the benefits of working in the office that you can leave your work notebook in the locker so you can't use it after working times.
lpapez 5y ago
One more: Depending on company culture, meetings with 10+ people can end up with just a few people talking and others not participating at all but still being forced to attend. Tolerating such events is much easier when you simply turn off your camera and lay on the couch, stretch around etc. instead of sitting awkwardly and pretending to care.
mahastore 5y ago
It is time humanity takes lesson from all that happened in the last two years and aim to build a more sustainable environment. Not just for us but for our future generations.
throwawaysea 5y ago
I was a long-time skeptic of remote work, but after this last year I am convinced it can work well - and perhaps not just work well but work better than traditional office work. Our experience has been that people are just as productive in a 'visible sense' as when they were forced to commute and come into the office. But I also get the sense that people are happier, because they are able to skip frustrations (commute), retain their family life in a better way (seeing kids more), and free up mental bandwidth (by taking care of little chores/errands at will). They are able to create the work environment they want, eat more healthily, and do things like go for a walk and recharge. For creative work, I think there will be significant long-term benefits to having a work force that isn't just productive, but also happy, healthy, and fulfilled. Companies that are trying desperately to hold onto the old working model with stopgaps like "hybrid work" are simply dating themselves and will lose their best talent.
Gibbon1 5y ago
> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. One of my bitches about Silicon Valley is top managers of tech companies locate their companies a short drive away from their homes and estates in Palo Alto, Los Altos, Woodside and force the schmucks that work for them into long commutes.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> I can wake up later since I don't have a commute. I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Commutes are also dangerous if they're by car. Not only are roadway congested, everyone is in a rush, and people are driving after just waking up and then again after a full day of work. From a purely economic standpoint, commutes are responsible for a 10% drop in hourly wages[1]. [1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator
batty_alex 5y ago
> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Is this hyperbole? Why do you all have 2 hour commutes? That sounds like hell

apexalpha 5y ago

Agreed! I had an hour-long one way commute too and it's been great. My work day went from 11 hours to 9 at most. I have more time to cook, I can get up later of earlier, I can do laundry, dishwasher etc... My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. I do miss my colleagues as well, but two days a week should be enough to garner most weekly advantages of being in the same place. And it's not just convenience, either. 2 days in office would open up immense possibilities for me regarding housing, I can live in a cheaper home outside the big city and still commute less than 10 hours a week.

mcot2 5y ago
I suspect the partial in-office/wfh arrangement will be fairly rare. Office space is costly to use only 2 days a week. Companies can do hoteling but it breaks down when you have very technical employees who like very particular desk setups (multiple monitors, chair positions, special keyboards/mice). The more common arrangement will probably be mostly WFH but meet up occsionally in some per-hour rented office for collaboration. Sucks for WeWork to have blown itself up before this :).
- mcguire 5y ago
  Or if everyone's two days is Tuesday and Wednesday. :-)
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Just spread it around so all five days get coverage.
- Izkata 5y ago
  > Office space is costly to use only 2 days a week. So downsize. We were doing partial WFH before the pandemic because our office had more people than seats (open office seating); everyone picked different days they preferred for home and office, and the office ended up mostly full most days.
slumdev 5y ago
> My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. Mine is pushing some similar nonsense. I don't think anyone thought about it too hard: 1. I still have to live within a reasonable driving distance of the main office. 2. I still have to maintain a home office, sacrificing valuable square footage without being reimbursed for its use. 3. I still have to furnish this home office, without being reimbursed for anything except computer accessories.
- apexalpha 5y ago
  1. Why? I can live 2 hours from my office and still have a total weekly commute that is less than my pre-pandemic commute. If I can somehow fix an overnight in the city it's even less. 2. This is true, although you get 'reimbursed' for that by not commuting. And since you don't commute you can live somewhere cheaper, or get a bigger house for the same price. 3. My company paid for all that, so no issue here.
  - slumdev 5y ago
    Two hours from your office? Is this hyperbole? If you live two hours from your office and go in for three days per week, that's 2h per leg * 2 legs per day * 3 days per week = 12 hours per week on the road. You were spending more than 12 hours per week in traffic? The average commute in the United States is a little less than 30 minutes [1]. That's 5 hours per week for someone who works five days per week. 1. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-travel-time-to-work-rises.html https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2021/one-way-...
    - apexalpha 5y ago
      I used to commute 1 hour one way pre Covid, so 10 hours per week. If I go into the office for only 2 days a week I could live twice as far from my workplace and still only commute 8 hours a week. I was meaning to say that even with 2 days in-Office per week it opens up possibilities regarding housing. I was spending 1,5 hours per day in a train, and walking to the station for 10 minutes or so, yes.
rootusrootus 5y ago
> My company wants to go 2 days home and 3 days office. I've said I'd do it the other way around. That's exactly the same as me. Company is talking about everyone coming back in for 3/2 starting in mid-September. My response is I'll see you for 2/3. I have a 20 minute commute which isn't too onerous, and I like having some in-office time as I find it valuable. What will really be the test for me is how I feel after a month or two of the kids being back in school. Right now being home is still fairly social for me. Previous times I've tried to work remotely it was the loneliness of having only myself in the house for days on end that killed it for me. I'm also a bit of a realist, though. Being remote (or at least 'more remote' than the rest of the team) is a serious career limit, so if everyone else starts spending most of their time in the office, I will probably follow along.
ub99 5y ago
Also, depending on the type of commute, I need to factor in the exhaustion that comes with using public transportation like Bart. So for me it was an hour each way plus a substantial time to decompress from standing in a packed sweaty train. In the evening it usually meant that I was just too tired to do anything else after work.
davidgerard 5y ago
Before the pandemic I did a lot of WFH, looking after my chronically ill partner. I basically got my face-to-face load out the way on a Monday, which was Meeting Day.

me_me_me 5y ago

Its hard to come up with arguments for working from office when you can save 2 hours of commute. Time alone is huge. With that standard 8h work 8h personal time 8h sleep. Commute eats up 1/4 of your personal time.

martin_a 5y ago
> Time alone is huge. Don't forget that could also be more time with your loved ones, like your partner, your children or even your pets. That's a big deal for lots of people and very understandable. edit: It's also more time for _everything else_. Personally, I really enjoy cooking lunch and sitting on my balcony for half an hour, something I can't do when working from the office.
- spearo77 5y ago
  I parsed that quote differently.. the way I think they meant the phrase is– The factor of time itself is huge (no matter how you end up using it)
- pickle-wizard 5y ago
  The location flexibility is big too. I live in Austin, and my parents live in Kansas. I drove up to Kansas this past Saturday and will work from up here and drive back next Saturday. I've worked from home for a few years now, and before that I would have to take vacation time to go visit them.
  - RSHEPP 5y ago
    For real. My wife picked up travel nursing and it's been a huge life improvement. Just check the taxes in the states you are working in. I have 25 work days in Illinois without income taxes, but all states are different.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      There have been some efforts to rationalize this at the federal level but AFAIK they haven't gone anywhere. And some states seem to basically have zero thresholds for this and enforcement for business travel seems to be ratcheting up. Some people are probably going to find that they need to file more state tax returns.

mgkimsal 5y ago

I go to a coworking space. Having some semblance of separating home from 'work' (even though I do sometimes 'work' from home) helps. I did total 'work from home' - working out of a converted bedroom - for years, and... it's functional, but the process/ritual of leaving and coming back does help me. I still 'work remote', as a freelancer. I have had engagements where I go to a client's offices, sometimes for somewhat extended periods of time. I will travel if needed. But the majority of work I do is still done on terms I have some control over, which, ultimately, I think is the key part of the whole discussion. Where I work, what equipment, what hours, when/where I travel, what I wear, etc - things you were mentioning above - having control over those is key, regardless of whether you want to work from home or in an office or somewhere in between.

cbm-vic-20 5y ago
My neighbor commutes to "work" in the morning by taking a 20 minute bike ride, and commutes "home" by doing the same route in reverse.
- ub99 5y ago
  Ha! That’s a genius idea! I might start going on morning/evening “commute” walks too.
tinyhouse 5y ago
That's the key for me. I think every remote company should pay for co-working space for their employees if they choose to. Also, it's important that co-working spaces design it to be more like a quiet office with stations with big screens etc. Not like the old co-working concept where it's like a cafe, cramping multiple people together. I recall once interviewing at a startup. Their office was in a co-working space. When I arrived in the morning I knew after 5 minutes that I'm not going to work there. The entire team of 4 people, including the CTO who was supposed to be my manager, were sitting together in a tiny room with zero privacy.
- pnutjam 5y ago
  I would never use a co-working space. I want to be home, not in some pseudo office. I also wonder how the end of pandemic norms will effect people who claim they want to be in the office. If they can get their socialization outside the office, we could see a resurgence of neighborhood clubs.

cm2187 5y ago

Agree with all of this, but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. Also all the interactions are going through your employers systems, which are all recorded. So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). It was fine the first 6 months of working from home but I feel increasingly professionally isolated, not knowing what is going on, even though I spend half of my day talking to people on a headset.

moate 5y ago
I know plenty of people, myself included, who consider most of what you described as a blessing. Not having to have "how are the kids?" conversations and instead being able to play a video game or watch a TV show during some down time is worth every bit of company gossip I'm missing.
system16 5y ago
> but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. That's a small price I'm willing to pay. > So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). Just speaking personally, any company I've worked at where gossip/whispering/staff looking over their shoulders and feel the need complain/etc. were important factors was not an environment I wanted to be a part of anyway.
nkozyra 5y ago
> but it also requires to schedule pretty much any interaction. This is another positive. > So any gossip or informal catch up, or sharing real “corporate incorrect” opinion is out of the door (if you work for any large organisation). I'm not sure what "corporate incorrect" means here, but gossip is generally a net negative in the workplace that tends to build cliques and factions that often manifest in a bigger problem. Assuredly there are other non-company channels to do those things, but the question is ... why?
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  A problem for whom? Unionisation is a net positive for everyone not interested in profit; a good union ensures good working environments which improve efficiency (amount achieved per time spent), and it reduces worker exploitation (e.g. fairer compensation for labour). How do you arrange something like that behind your boss's back if you can only communicate with your colleagues via corporate-approved communication channels?

michaelbuckbee 5y ago

The biggest one in this is the 10 hours per week of commute, which if anything actually is a lower estimate of the "all in" time commuting takes. In a normal job that's 25% of your time that's flatly uncompensated, who would opt for that.

hervature 5y ago
Another equivalent view point is that your commute was being compensated and that now employers will begin to pay less as the supply of people who are willing to work remote increase.

lukifer 5y ago

Hear, hear. As someone with dietary restrictions, the ability to make lunch at home every day is also huge (to say nothing of not being in an office which "helpfully" offers the temptation of junk food during moments of stress).

derwiki 5y ago
I thought I would gain weight from lack of commute exercise, but healthier eating has meant a net loss for me.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I guess it depends on the type of job, but for me (software engineering), WFH works extremely well. I often -often, not "sometimes"- get more done by 8AM, than I used to get done in over half a day (or even the entire day) at the office. WFH won't work for everyone. It takes real self-discipline, and not everyone considers home to be a suitable place for work. Even in these cases, I think we'll be seeing alternatives, like small "work hubs," ala WeWork, that are close to people's homes, and allow them to have a lot more autonomy than the main office.

sanitycheck 5y ago
I've worked from home for years, and found the same thing - it's made me look like, maybe not a 10X dev but definitely 2X. But now everyone else I deal with is WFH too and... It turns out they don't appear to be benefiting in the same way and performance has probably dropped on average. Give it a couple of years and most people will be back in the office as before, I expect.
almost_usual 5y ago
I’m the same I had been WFH in SF for at least two years and joined a new employer pre covid that required me to go into the office. Once COVID hit my manager was really surprised by how much more productive I was. At this point we’re on a flex schedule going back, will see how that goes. My hope is two days in the office for meeting days or interviews, rest engineering time at home.
ehnto 5y ago
I have gained a kind of hyper-focus and desire to do the work I had entirely lost thanks to the 9-5 grind, I've been working from home since before covid too. 9-5 5 day weeks seem almost designed to cause that kind of long-tail unproductivity.

dec0dedab0de 5y ago

I've been working from home for years, and while all the things you listed are huge. The number one thing I missed the most in the 20 or so times I've been to the office in the last 7 years, is having my own bathroom. That said, I miss going out to lunch, accidentally meeting people from other teams, reading on the train, meeting friends in the city right after work, and just being around people in general. I wish I could get an in office part time job that paid benefits, but I don't think those exist.

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

A one hour commute is a very long commute. Not an uncommonly long commute, perhaps, but only because—particularly in the US—we’ve made some really unfortunate choices with regard to city planning. It shouldn’t be this way.

ghaff 5y ago
Pretty much anyplace where someone commutes into a city from comfortably outside the city is going to have a substantial commute. I'm actually very convenient to a decent commuter rail system to a city with a good mass transit system. And it would take me around 90 minutes door to door to commute in. It would be shorter if I lived closer in but it would be hard to be much under an hour.
- ryukafalz 5y ago
  I was curious about this so had to check. I live in a fairly large city with decent transit options (for the US), and (notably) a high-speed commuter rail system going into the city. I'm considering moving out of the city in a year or so, and if I do I want to be convenient to a station on that rail system. Using a friend's address in the suburbs as a proxy (who lives near where I might be moving), Google Maps puts the travel time from there to my office at 32 minutes via commuter rail. That's with an 8 minute walk and 11 minute walk on either side, but if you assume a bike ride rather than a walk I'd imagine you can cut each of those down by at least half. The rail line has headways of a little under 15 minutes at rush hour, so that could possibly extend the trip a little bit if your timing's not perfect, but still well under an hour. Of course if you need multiple transfers to get to your destination (and your local transit system doesn't have very short headways) that will increase your travel time substantially. The commuter line I'm thinking of takes you right into the heart of the city where many jobs are though (including my own) so that's not always a concern.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    That's probably an unusually good commuter rail system. I'm about a 10 minute drive from a less frequent commuter rail, so figure 15 minutes out the door until the scheduled train comes. There don't seem to be any express trains running right now so it's over an hour into the city and that's assuming I don't need to catch a subway on the other end--which I would have to do to go to my company's city office. So, for me, at least 90 minutes--and that's for someone fairly far out (it would also take me a good 60 minutes to go in by car with nominal traffic but more like 90 anywhere near rush hour even leaving early) but convenient to a rail line. I actually did this for a time, fortunately not every day but frequently enough. Wouldn't really have been sustainable long term.

dekhn 5y ago

Yep. I just changed jobs to have a shorter commute to support my wife and children better, and also expect to only be in the office ~3 days a week. Working from home has been an absolute boon to me. I've done partial WFH for my entire career and it feels totally natural to me. I do miss being in the office, maybe once a week or so.

subpixel 5y ago

I recently committed to a 40m commute for the next three years to take my young child to our chosen school. I rented a desk near the school b/c of course 40m is too far for multiple round-trips each day. I used to commute an hour pre-pandemic so I thought, how bad can it be? Let me tell you - after a year of working at home, any commute feels like a giant waste of time and energy, which of course it is. I cherish the time with by child, but being strapped into a car seat in the back of the car is hardly quality time.

shkkmo 5y ago
My first response is: Your poor kid has to be strapped into a car seat for an hour and a half every day? That sounds aweful.
- subpixel 5y ago
  We live in a paradise that is closer to a puffin colony than the nearest streetlight, so we accept the rough edges.
- plank_time 5y ago
  You sound like you need to learn more empathy and how to be less judgmental.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

stjohnswarts 5y ago

I'm not gonna lie, it lowers my stress levels by at least half. The sheer fact that people can't randomly drop by and I can more control the flow of my day by ignoring email and slack until reasonable interval checks. People can still get me if there's an "emergency" but those are few and far between.

deleted 5y ago

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bsharitt 5y ago

> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Realizing I was basically using an entire work day or even a little more per week just to commute was what made me put in the effort to move to remote work(pre-pandemic by a couple years). And once I started, I noticed the little niceties as you mentioned and it would take something drastic to get me back into an office again.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> If I need a 15 minute break, I can start a load of laundry, or run the dishwasher, or do some other chore. That is not universal. That is a subset of work-from-home. Many people working from home can no more step away for a break than they would if at the office. For instance, customer support/contact people cannot just step away from the phone. Others working at home have employer systems that monitor them live. Any unscheduled breaks get noticed and recorded. Even amongst highly-paid "knowledge workers" there are issues. I do occasional home days but am not able to take breaks. At any time one of my five bosses might call. We don't have any monitoring software but they expect me at my desk ready to respond, not walking the dog or doing laundry.

walterlb 5y ago
Five bosses? I'm genuinely curious how this works
- teddyh 5y ago
  At least it’s fewer than eight.
- sosborn 5y ago
  My guess is that it doesn't work as well as four bosses.
  - jholman 5y ago
    I laughed and upvoted, but you never know. Maybe the utility curve turns a corner.
mrtranscendence 5y ago
Or my talk therapist girlfriend, for whom working from home still means having phone or video appointments starting and ending every hour. Though at least she can take a short break if someone no-shows (most of that time is for doing notes). I suspect most people working from home have some opportunity to take breaks here and there, though. I'm aware of certain professions with invasive monitoring (I've seen nurses that work for pharmaceutical companies report this), but it doesn't seem to be particularly widespread. I'm not familiar with anyone in my personal life who have an expectation of immediate response to superiors (though on the rare case the CEO contacts you, you should make sure to get on that pretty quickly ... but that's why I get email on my phone/watch).

earnesti 5y ago

The biggest perk for me is the ability to hit that bong in a middle of work day, while watching weird ass japanese hentai with my surround sound home cinema.

Avalaxy 5y ago
> The biggest perk for me is the ability to hit that bong in a middle of work day I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but how could you possibly be productive after that?
- cercatrova 5y ago
  It really depends on the type, certain strains can make one more productive potentially. At least that's what I've heard from others.
- meowkit 5y ago
  Going along with the other reply to this comment, there are a select few individuals who can handle low/medium doses of sativa strains and be shockingly productive. I use it for focusing on purely creative works, but I definitely can’t use it in a professional setting.
golergka 5y ago
Depending on your company culture, you could do that in the office as well. In some companies I worked at, weed brakes were an everyday occurrence for engineering, but gamedev in general and Tel Aviv in particular are a bit different from the usual white-collar office culture.
- 1_player 5y ago
  Though I'm sure the hentai lunch breaks aren't on the list of perks at even the most relaxed of FAANGs. No idea though, I'm pretty far removed from that world.
  - golergka 5y ago

golergka 5y ago

Laundry? I regularly take a 20-minute bath in the middle of my workday. With salt, bubbles, scent candles and a book. Why would I ever go back to the office?

failwhaleshark 5y ago
No bath bombs? How do Zoom calls work? Do you just throw on an Afghan monk-style or use a Snap filter?
- golergka 5y ago
  I haven't had a single zoom call in my current company since the interview. Audio calls are extremely rare, one in 4 months on average. I've never been so psychologically stable and productive in my entire working life.

Clubber 5y ago

Just to add to the plusses you already mentioned, the amount of CO2 released into the atmosphere just by the practice of driving to the office everyday is immense.

musicale 5y ago
The best thing about the pandemic has been improved air quality. Do we really want to go back? https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149747 https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57149747

stadium 5y ago

My mental model on commute time is that every 1 hour is a year of my life wasted over a 24 year career. More than that if I work for more than 24 years.

wolfretcrap 5y ago

I 3d print and make useful things for my house on CNC mill machine I received few months back. At this point if a company wants me back in office, I'll go and work for the one which doesn't really there's no value in being packed in a shop with people who don't want to be with you. It's other thing to orchestrate something by purchasing bit of inputs from everyone on team.

throwaway894345 5y ago

Agreed with the above. I'll also add that for many years my wife and I have had the goal of living in Europe (we're Americans) but finding suitable work in Europe seemed nearly impossible: * EU work visas seem very hard to get * EU software jobs seem to pay ~40% less than comparable American jobs before taxes (and EU taxes are more significant)--this leaves little slack for travel * My wife's field is communications/marketing and she's pretty specialized to English/American-culture and the demand is quite a lot lower for her industry than mine Then there's the hassle of long-term remote: figuring out taxes, selling our home, the logistics and costs of moving those possessions we're unwilling to sell to Europe, etc. Work-from-home enables us to work from Europe for a few months at a time--we'll have to work odd hours (~2pm-9pm iirc) and we'll probably have to pay Europe rent and our American mortgage; however, we'll probably take most of our vacation during our abroad months so the odd hours will only apply for a few weeks and we can afford the additional housing cost (especially if we save for it during the months we're in the US). I think the tax situation should be okay since we'll be in the US for the majority of the year, but I need to find out for sure.

htrp 5y ago
IANAL but technically you working remote from Europe on a tourist visa is a violation of a bunch of immigration laws (and probably some tax treaties). Will your firm catch you? Likely not if you are only working abroad for a few weeks, if you're doing it for longer, you'll probably get an email asking for clarification on your tax status (at best). At worst, they'll pull your VPN logs and demand that you get back to the states before you trigger some payroll issues.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Thanks for the heads up. I'll have to look into this more deeply. I'm curious if anyone knows where the appropriate place to ask would be (foreign embassy?). FWIW, I'm not planning to hide this from my firm.
- ehnto 5y ago
  It does really depend on the country and visa, so certainly look into it. It's not a default no-no, and tax treaties often exist to make international economic activity easier not harder. My country has a tax-treaty with the country I do most of my work for, and so I only pay taxes in one not the other. Without such a treaty I'd have to pay taxes in both countries and it would make it unviable.

teekert 5y ago

All of this +: I can just start calling people, no need to find a room with my laptop where I only have the screen of that laptop, just to not disturb the others in the open office. I have breakfast with the kids, am home for package/groceries deliveries. I have much better relations with colleagues in other countries because cam on is the default and we are not with a group of locals and 2 people on cam. It's a big equalizer. I like it like this and would be annoyed as well if this was taken from me.

agumonkey 5y ago

I think it would be good to sum all the commute free week - time saved - gas saved - car wear saved ..

twobitshifter 5y ago

The pandemic has flipped things on their head. Before it was “how can I know that you’d be productive outside of the office?” and now it’s “how is the office is any way necessary or an improvement on working from home?” Businesses have to justify offices and cubicles to their workers but from all of the arguments I’ve read, they’re coming up short.

pentae 5y ago

Not only that but when you combine it with having the freedom to relocate to a low cost of living destination suit your optimal lifestyle the benefits stack up even more. For example living 15 minutes to world class hiking trails or surf spots. Not having to take a flight or drive for hours each way to go do those things on weekends you can now do them every day before or after work. Getting to live in a large house out in nature, far away from the city crowds. It's a game changer

mlrtime 5y ago
Many fully remote companies are giving reduction of pay from HCOL cities... this still may work out but not always a straight comparison.

flexie 5y ago

This, and - Walk kids to school in the mornings, pick them up in afternoons - Buy groceries when it suits you in the middle of the day. - Do sports in the middle of the day - Start slow cooking during the day - Avoid being called into pointless meetings (no-one can see that you are actually not in another meeting or phone call) - Take breaks with your wife

ericmcer 5y ago

You are pitching being able to do laundry, dishes, clean, etc. as a perk. I feel like it’s a negative as part of my mental space is occupied by household chores as well. Blending errands and cleaning with meetings and focused work is a pain now. It feels like I’m doing an insane multitasking balancing act most days.

ulfw 5y ago
How did you cope before? Who did all this for you before?
- sidlls 5y ago
  In the evenings and on weekends.
  - azemetre 5y ago
    Wouldn't you rather keep evenings/weekends free of chores and do some of them during the work week? That's what I prefer and do at least.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    So keep doing them on weekends or evenings if that works best for you. WFH gives you the option of doing them at other times if that meets your needs better.
- ericmcer 5y ago
  my mommy
nickstinemates 5y ago
I read it as pitching flexibility in your schedule as a perk. The details are the details (and vary from person to person)
hrktb 5y ago
This as much as you want to do it though. I share OP's view point, but will also let those house keeping tasks rote away for a while if I'm not in the mood too. They'll still need to be done at some point, but now we have more choice on when we want to do it, and not just between 8PM and 8 AM or only on weekends, as it was the case before.

whoomp12342 5y ago

I can microwave fish and have no shade thrown at me

dougmwne 5y ago

I've been doing WFH for 5 years and feel like the rest of the world just caught on. In addition to what you mention: - Control of food. No more bagels or carb dumping ground. No more limited food options. My own kitchen. - Control of equipment. Need a 4k monitor? Need a trackball? No approvals needed. - Control of ergonomics. Get exactly the chair you need. Get an electric height adjustable desk without going through facilities. - Control temperature. Never be too hot or cold. - So many great options for breaks. Walk down the street. Meditate in the garden. Play Beatsaber. Take a nap, naps are magic. - Control your lighting. Good color temperature and comfortable brightness make the space more relaxing and can aid sleep and wakefulness. - The ultimate corner office. Privacy and separate space that you can personalize to your heart's content. - Location flexibility. Work from a beach rental. Do a city-stay near a WeWork. Find a mountain cabin with high speed internet. Move to a new state without having to change jobs. - Finances. Live in a low tax state. Have an older car. Spend less on clothes, lunches, parking, gas, tolls. Live in cheaper square footage without worrying about what it does to your commute. - Stress. More emotional speration between you and your work. Relationships are through Zoom and require less emotional investment. Work forms less a part of your identity and changing it involves fewer changes to your daily routine. - Caffeine. With more tools to manage your wakefulness, less need to lean on the crutch of caffeine. For me, less caffeine means less alcohol as well. Other people are free to have their opinions that they don't like WFH or can't wait to get back into the office. For me, I really struggle to understand how you cannot love it. With total control of my environment, I can easily correct for minor downsides such as needing to maintain work-life balance and good social connections. After years of optimization, I have a better quality of life than our CEO. I'd be insane to give it up.

kat 5y ago
I liked how to worded "emotional separation" The reduction in my stress has been amazing, especially considering we've been in the middle of covid. My moods are way better regulated now. I'm no longer trying to ignore my angry office mate who's muttering under his breath. I didn't realize how much upset people influence my own mood. I thought I was good at ignoring angry people, but the action of ignoring took up a lot more energy than I previously thought. My biggest worry about back-to-office is how I'm going to managed my increased stress levels.

m463 5y ago

I found scrubs (pants) are ultra-comfortable and industrial strength functional.

failwhaleshark 5y ago
Flight suits are adult onesies. And resistant to fire and McDonald's coffee.

snarf21 5y ago

I'm glad this works for you & others and that you are happy. However, every time WFH comes up here, people present their preferences as universally better or best. I hate WFH but that is my preference. I really wish these discussions were more about how happy people are that they now have a choice instead of things being so authoritative. For clarity, I enjoy having a hard separation between home and work. If I'm at home, I'm more likely to be distracted with chores instead of working. I leave my laptop at work so I don't need to work off hours unless there is an emergency. I enjoy my 30 minute commute. I listen to podcasts or design board games. I understand I could do those at home, but I'm more likely to just watch a show or something instead of dedicating time to just listening to a podcast. I enjoy being around friends that I've worked with off and on for over 20 years. We go to lunch together and talk about life. Sometimes we play board games at lunch. I enjoy collaborating over a white board trying to solve a problem. It is sooo much easier to do that in person. I personally feel more part of a team in person than I do if we just communicate via Slack. But these are just the things that work for me. I don't expect anyone else to feel the way I do but there are lots of others out there like me too. I'm glad more companies have options for those with a preference.

b3morales 5y ago
Well said. Indeed, the whole "battle" over WFH should be about giving people the ability to choose what works best for them, not forcing either option. And that may even change for a particular person from year to year or job to job.
- ghaff 5y ago
  I agree. But the "battle" is at least partly around: - People who are technically allowed to WFH but who are concerned that co-workers/managers will pressure them to come in anyway and - People who want to come back into an office most days but don't want to come into a ghost town with most meetings over video anyway.
  - coliveira 5y ago
    > People who want to come back into an office most days but don't want to come into a ghost town with most meetings over video anyway. I think this battle is lost. Even if people go back to offices, a lot of meetings will happen over video anyway. This has been the norm in some large companies already.

wdb 5y ago

One of the benefits of working in the office that you can leave your work notebook in the locker so you can't use it after working times.

lpapez 5y ago

One more: Depending on company culture, meetings with 10+ people can end up with just a few people talking and others not participating at all but still being forced to attend. Tolerating such events is much easier when you simply turn off your camera and lay on the couch, stretch around etc. instead of sitting awkwardly and pretending to care.

mahastore 5y ago

It is time humanity takes lesson from all that happened in the last two years and aim to build a more sustainable environment. Not just for us but for our future generations.

throwawaysea 5y ago

I was a long-time skeptic of remote work, but after this last year I am convinced it can work well - and perhaps not just work well but work better than traditional office work. Our experience has been that people are just as productive in a 'visible sense' as when they were forced to commute and come into the office. But I also get the sense that people are happier, because they are able to skip frustrations (commute), retain their family life in a better way (seeing kids more), and free up mental bandwidth (by taking care of little chores/errands at will). They are able to create the work environment they want, eat more healthily, and do things like go for a walk and recharge. For creative work, I think there will be significant long-term benefits to having a work force that isn't just productive, but also happy, healthy, and fulfilled. Companies that are trying desperately to hold onto the old working model with stopgaps like "hybrid work" are simply dating themselves and will lose their best talent.

Gibbon1 5y ago

> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. One of my bitches about Silicon Valley is top managers of tech companies locate their companies a short drive away from their homes and estates in Palo Alto, Los Altos, Woodside and force the schmucks that work for them into long commutes.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> I can wake up later since I don't have a commute. I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Commutes are also dangerous if they're by car. Not only are roadway congested, everyone is in a rush, and people are driving after just waking up and then again after a full day of work. From a purely economic standpoint, commutes are responsible for a 10% drop in hourly wages[1]. [1] https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator https://go.frontier.com/business/commute-calculator

batty_alex 5y ago

> I don't lose two hours a day due to the commute. Is this hyperbole? Why do you all have 2 hour commutes? That sounds like hell