28 ms·

What Oxford taught me about posh people

293 points by hownottowrite 5y ago

mmmrk 5y ago
I'm currently reading Taleb's Antifragility book and he strikes a similar tune: The education system being little more than a way to cement social status, with actual innovation and entrepreneurship largely taking place outside it. Wealth leads to education, not the other way around. I find this topic fascinating and it makes me see discussions about underfunded education systems and universities from a different angle.
- bildung 5y ago
  I haven't read the book, but have often heard that trope - did he write about actual research into the topic? I ask because in the fields I'm familiar with many innovative approaches are actually university spin-offs. Edit: The point of this beautiful article, "a society that is blind to the potential of so many of its young people, is a wasteful, unfair and ineffective society" is a sad truth, but in my opinion the answer is openening the institution up, not abolishing it. Those people didn't learn middle class behaviour in universities, they were socialized with it since birth. Good, widely available public education is an effective means to level out this class-based inequality.
  - zhdc1 5y ago
    Same. The yearly local value added from eship alone at the university I work at is in the 200-300M+ USD/CHF range. The global value added is significantly higher. I imagine that technical universities, like ETHZ/EPFL, have a much larger annual impact
- iratic0 5y ago
  "Wealth leads to education". This is how it used to be. The "Liberal" Arts were named so as the sort of people who studied them had freedom from normal labour. Then came the push in the 80s to 00s to get more working class kids into higher education, so they could have the same opportunities as upper class folk, thinking education leads to wealth. Instead we've just ended up with a bunch of working class kids graduating to become baristas. Education doesn't lead to real wealth. University educated higher professionals still go back to their middle class home to open a carton of orange juice. Having started a business recently, I've realised how much I didn't need anything I learned at uni to do this.
  - cafard 5y ago
    Boomer here. A number of my professors (at a so-so school in the US West) came from at best lower middle class families and went through college on the GI Bill. One of the better ones had been something like a signalman in the Navy, another (a star from whom I never took a class) did enlisted service in the USAAF, I think. Alvin Kernan, who had a long career in academia, wrote in the early pages of his memoir In Plato's Cave of the influx of men like himself, attending college on the GI Bill in the late 1940s.
  - zhdc1 5y ago
    Eh, a lot of folks forget that the shift to the liberal arts after the 50s had a lot to do with a surplus of engineers (and relatively lower salaries for their capabilities) and the desire to get into corporate management positions, which was a reasonable ambition before the popularity of MBAs and business programs.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    > Then came the push in the 80s to 00s to get more working class kids into higher education, so they could have the same opportunities as upper class folk, thinking education leads to wealth. Instead we've just ended up with a bunch of working class kids graduating to become baristas. How much of this is just being stuck in old mindsets? I went to an expensive private school with lots of rich people and just 1 student chose a program outside of business, engineering, or medicine and we were far from a science school. It was clearly understood that arts was a path to serving coffee. A school that arguably had more people win essay/book competitions than science fairs produced nobody in those areas. In university, I met tons of people who thought that having a degree alone opened up a pile of job options. They were 20 years behind the mindset of my private school. It is now that certain education leads to wealth and plenty of people are doing education which does not.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- TimPC 5y ago
  Innovation and Entrepreneurship are supposed to take place outside of academia. Core research is the mission of academia. The research that doesn’t have the immediate returns or value capture to justify starting a company around. Some exceptions where academics launch businesses from their research but those are exactly that, exceptions.
CapitalistCartr 5y ago
His last paragraph nails it: "I can see why people are sceptical about universities, and angry at the elite ones. They are often now little more than training camps for the stormtroopers of capitalism."
- stablenode 5y ago
  Yes, damn those stormtroopers of capitalism! How dare they be in it for themselves! I mean, people pursuing their self interest (at the expense of whom, exactly?) is immoral, innit?
  - approxim8ion 5y ago
    > at the expense of whom, exactly? Everyone they step on along the way.
    - stablenode 5y ago
      Could you develop that point? I went to a northern comprehensive; I now lecture CS, but I have no recollection of being 'stepped on' by the Tarquins and Glorias of this world along the way -- in fact, I always felt that it is they who should be worried if they try. You may have some self esteem issues, mate.
      - approxim8ion 5y ago
        I do have self-esteem issues, good catch, but I doubt my getting therapy would do much about already underpaid workers whose bosses are raking in bonuses while signing off on orders to furlough them, for example.
        stablenode 5y ago
        Ok. This sounds like a bit of a change of subject, but I think I follow. This all sounds a bit general: which 'underpaid workers' (and what is 'underpaid'?), which bosses, and how much are they 'raking in', is it illegal? You need to be more precise to diagnose a problem. More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? You have my sympathy if you are the one stuck with an unreasonable employer and feel that you are underpaid: my advice would be to look for a new job and tell your employer where to go once you've found one. However, if you are not in that category -- I have to say that I've never found the altruistic Guardianista (there -- I've said it!) approach to economic problems to be at all credible. It all smacks of some perverse neo-Christian moralising about what's 'fair' and 'good'. You can nearly always tell that an economic argument is lost when people start speaking about morality. If you want to go to Heaven, you're welcome. Me -- I'd rather go to Disneyland : at least it's actually there (besides, I've never been before).
vletal 5y ago
My life goal was to attend one of these elite universities. I desired to work at companies such as Google or Apple. After graduating from the Czech Technical University I realized that 1. I am much less special then I thought 2. There is much more hard working focused average people then the few talented superstars, both usually achieving the same 3. Surprisingly many of the exceptionally smart people in my social bubble, some of them graduated from the best universities in the world, "left the system" and focus on doing creative small thing's in their everyday life, instead of pursuing their parents dreams 4. Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair 5. I will do my best to teach my kinds to strive for understanding, a love for beauty and a complexity of the world, instead of focusing on grades and stuff 6. The two guys I knew, who attended Oxf. and Camb. were both fired because they were more talk then action. Not a representative sample though. Just ruining my illusion.
- runawaybottle 5y ago
  #3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Take your average bootcamper, they usually rack up a huge bill majoring in something in college (often a literal dream major), then somehow field a 17k check to just waltz over to tech when they need an office job finally. Not everyone can do this. You have to be really lucky to play games like that and still be fine. The same goes for ‘going off to start my own food truck’. These options don’t exist for people that can only afford one solid go at this.
  - js8 5y ago
    > #3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Just to clarify, Czech Technical University is free (for Czech citizens) - I also graduated there. I understand what you're saying, but I am somehow repulsed by the idea that such a system is considered a "privilege". It doesn't have to be a privilege. If you don't have good public universities in your country, you should consider getting involved in politics.
    - runawaybottle 5y ago
      My point was mostly centered around freedom. Everyone knows the rules of the game. Those who can’t toy around, play the game straight and narrow (good grades, stay focused on one concentration, and hope you picked well). It’s a luxury to try one thing or another, no matter the cost (cash and time), and still land in an ideal situation as life progresses.
osrec 5y ago
As someone who was also raised in the North of England, went to a state school, and also ended up going to Oxford, this article is spot on. It took me a while to realise that the state educated people were often the more talented ones (they've not had anything handed to them on a plate), and our lack of poshness was actually something to be proud of - not something to feel inferior about!
- iratic0 5y ago
  Also comp educated and went to Oxford. I feel like in the last 5 years or so it's become "uncool" to be posh. Feel like this has been instigated by (in the West) Brexit and Trump bringing the Establishment down a notch.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    When has it ever been cool to be posh?
    - iratic0 5y ago
      In the UK after the Conservatives came to power in 2010 electing an Old Etonian, I felt culturally there was a shift towards "posh" is good as a signifier of status and social power. I feel like in the last 5 years or so it has turned to posh is "uncool". In the US, I feel like they had something similar. Obama was elected in 2008, but some people did have concerns of electing someone unestablished. To assuage these concerns, Obama promoted and kept safe the interests the elite at the time. Not detracting Obama here - that's the position he was in back in 2008 when some would have considered electing a black man to the Office as unthinkable.
      - ksec 5y ago
        Interesting observation.
      - lupire 5y ago
        What president has ever not promoted the elite? Was Jimmy Carter posh? Harry Truman?
gyulai 5y ago
I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least it was that way, back when I was there in 2005-2009). While the U.K. was part of the E.U. these low rates even applied to students coming to study there from elsewhere in the E.U. It is only "overseas" students who are asked to pay significantly more. One thing that I found noteworthy when applying was also the fact that, for Cambridge, the admissions process had two phases: The first was academic acceptance. Those application forms made absolutely no mention of money. After a student has been academically accepted, there is a second phase in the application process that involves application to scholarships and ends with the applicant having to provide proof that they have the required funds to sustain themselves through the study period. This was very different from what I remember about applying to universities in the U.S. which asked you to disclose your family's financial situation on the same application form that was also used to decide academic acceptance. That form, incidentally, also asked about things like family members who have attended the same university, etc. ...so there is much less transparency there to guarantee that a U.S. school wouldn't just use your socioeconomic standing directly as a criterion to decide admission. There are, of course, impediments to social mobility into the class of Oxbridge-educated people, but it revolves more around academics than about money. For example, I found that the students disproportionately came from families where their parents were career academics. The relationship with those families having a lot of money was not something I particularly noticed. The "poshness" of it all, particularly where undergraduate circles are concerned, also comes to a large extent from free choices that students themselves make to try to socially set themselves apart from their peers at other unversities. For example many willfully adopt "received pronunciation" to replace their natural dialects.
- varispeed 5y ago
  Do you think universities still offer knowledge otherwise not accessible anywhere else? I mean, there are courses that require "hands on" experience and guidance, but for things like IT, how uni is any better than e.g. Udemy, free lectures from around the world and meetups?
WastingMyTime89 5y ago
As an Oxford alumni, I would personally focus on this more: "But Oxford wasn’t like that. The teaching was personalised, flexible and interactive. That kind of system keeps people like me in the room, fired up and engaged. Kids like me, who don’t flourish in school, can benefit from such attention, and focus, and belief. A good society would strive to give it to them." Oxford provides an amazing environment if you genuinely want to learn and improve and the university actually seems to care about you succeeding. The time I spent there remain a decade later some of the most enjoyable in my life.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Cyril_HN 5y ago
  Interestingly, I wouldn't suggest that that has anything (or much) at all to do with "elite" universities. At St Andrews I didn't find that to be true. At a far less prestigious university, it was true. My cohort largely agrees with that assessment, too.
- dang 5y ago
  I've detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27342661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27342661, even though that deprives it of context, because it's better than the flamewar it got stuck in.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  Alumnus or alumna, surely :-)
bogle 5y ago
"The Shepherd's Life" is a great book, especially if you know the landscape he's farming. It's only a shame that you've now got a spoiler in discovering that he was so very clever and went to Oxford. Otherwise his is one of the rare stories of lives we tend not to read about.
cblconfederate 5y ago
The UK has made an export industry out of this snobbery and attracts hundreds of thousands of international students for this prestige. I wonder if ethologists have studied this behavior. Queen bees are not selected with an IQ test, they re selected randomly and raised by the plebs to become their queen.It's a successful strategy evidently. I guess something similar might work in primates where the random selection is the 'nearest trusted family friend'.
- pm90 5y ago
  I’m not so sure. The Queen bees responsibilities as a “leader” are literally just to stay alive and reproduce. Most primate leaders have a lot more responsibilities which they need to excel at. Maybe statistically they still turn out to not matter? Would be interesting to know.
  - cblconfederate 5y ago
    > which they need to excel at. they usually need to keep themselves in power / get reelected. Not necessarily a criterion of excellence.
    - pm90 5y ago
      Ineffective leadership for tribes would usually lead to its destruction.
      - cblconfederate 5y ago
        there s a lot of space between effective and excellent
- goldcd 5y ago
  Just picking up on the Queen Bee point - there can be multiple queen bees created, and when they hatch the first thing they do is kill all unborn queens and then fight to the death any that also hatched.
LysPJ 5y ago
In the article, there is the following quote: > "But you’re thick like me", he said For any readers who aren't familiar with British slang: the word "thick" means "stupid" in this context (as you have no-doubt worked out!).
jgrahamc 5y ago
The teaching was personalised, flexible and interactive. That kind of system keeps people like me in the room, fired up and engaged. Kids like me, who don’t flourish in school, can benefit from such attention, and focus, and belief. A good society would strive to give it to them. Yes, this is the best part of Oxford. My undergraduate education there consisted of: 1. Lectures to large groups of students 2. Some small classes 3. One-on-one or one-on-two "tutorials" with specialists in their subjects #3 is the core of the Oxford system and is what makes it (and a small number of other UK universities who do this) special. I went there from a bog-standard state school and it was an excellent education.
- 2wrist 5y ago
  This is what resonates with me, I went to a declining secondary school inthe UK and the amount of clever, clever kids who were written off because they were poor, or their parents were from the wrong side was scary. They just didn't bother with them. So much wasted talent and potential. Think of how much they could have contributed to society.
AlexSW 5y ago
I went to a state school and state sixth form, and my experience definitely deviates from that presented in the article and some other comments here. I think the part of the article which focuses on more personalised teaching rings the most true for me. There may be differences due to the subject, level, or college. I did a one-year masters in STEM in a very international graduate Oxford college. But the vast majority of members of the college were hard working, insightful, friendly, and not at all posh. There was a very friendly and open social life, and I definitely don't consider there to have been a great facade presented. Perhaps I would have found different in an undergraduate degree in the arts, or a different college, but I didn't get that sense from the people I spoke to from other colleges and faculties. My best guess is the Oxford college the article writer ended up in was rather more grand and snobby than any of those I spent time at. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this certainly isn't the only experience, and I'm confident none of the friends I made there would relate to the article's assessment. I found it a fantastic place to meet insightful, honest, friendly people in addition to all of its merits for learning.
- stablenode 5y ago
  Similar story here. Perhaps arts degrees are different, but I could not relate this piece to any of my experiences from when I was studying for a CS degree. It felt as though the author was writing about a different country.
  - AlexSW 5y ago
    I had several close friends studying for their own Masters degrees in subdesciplines of Anthropolgy and History of Art, and I'm not aware of them having had different experiences either, so my current best guess is down to it perhaps being an undergraduate degree in one of the most exclusive colleges.
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  In U.K. collegiate universities, like Oxbridge and Durham, there is a huge cultural divide between colleges and courses. I went to Durham. I was - I am - a posh kid - albeit one who’s acutely and painfully aware of his advantage. The college I was in was stacked to the rafters with posh kids. Everything orbited the social life - the balls, the ents, who was where in the pecking order of committees and executives. I mean, the college was in a literal castle. If you were reading arts, it was easy enough to stay entirely within that world. Economics, politics, classics, history, philosophy, etc., were all filled with pashminas and brogues. I spent time in those lectures as I was running a miniature essay mill to boost my social standing, as that was just what you did. I read physics - and the crowd couldn’t have been more different. The majority of science students were in the hill colleges, nearer the science campus, and came from state schools, rather than the mess of public school alumna you found in the Bailey colleges. I was a lone wool blazer in a lecture theatre full of t-shirts, rope-knit jumpers, pink hair and leather jackets. For me, it was an illuminating experience, and it made me realise that I didn’t really fit in either tribe - although 20 years on, the few people I’m still in touch with are from my course, not my college. The U.K. is a peculiar place when it comes to class. I realised over the years that how I said what I said, how I spoke, how I dressed, were all far more important to our business (because of course I started a business, with a posh friend from school) success than what we said, what we did. To other posh people, it says you’re one of the club, you can be trusted, nice school tie - to people from outside that world, it induces either a hat-clutching deferent reverence, or outright hostility. I liked the people who were outright hostile, because by that point I absolutely hated the same thing that they did - even though I benefited from it. Anyway. Experiences vary, and which college you’re in has a huge impact.
dt3ft 5y ago
Story of my life.
johncena33 5y ago
I have very similar experience as the author. I come from a small town in a poor country. On top of it's culturally inappropriate to brag about oneself. My first years living in a big city in North America was very hard on me. Everyone is at the center of the universe. Everyone is just too cool, too savvy and so high opinion about themselves to be friend with someone like me. After couple of years, now I can see through the BS and the whole high self-esteem culture behind it. North America is a very unique culture where having a (often unrealistic) high opinion about oneself is seen as virtue. Immigrants like me, who are not familar with North American cultural schtick, can easily fall for the whole high self-esteem ruse.
vr46 5y ago
I am acquainted with a disproportionate number of Oxbridge grads, mainly through my old school, which has always targeted those universities for its boys. While everyone is smart and pleasant, there is the constant reinforcement that Oxbridge grads seek each other out throughout their lives to almost exclusively hang out with each other. I mean, as towns they're not exactly next door, but in London there is the joint Oxford and Cambridge club on Pall Mall so they can carry on as they were. They're often hopelessly insular in this regard and I have never quite understood it. Why your university would provide such a strong identity for yourself all your life, I don't get.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Actually, for what most colleges charge, they should provide free clubs for alumni? Although, the thought of my pompous college mates is not a memory I want to think about today though. I went to a state school. I honestly thought my local community college did a much better job, but graduated anyways. I went to a professional school, and kinda thought the same--a whole lot of wasted time. I will never forget our last party though. Everyone graduated with their degree. We were at this party, and the atmosphere was different. I couldn't figure it out until years later though. My date that night was a stunning, innocent, affable, young lady. I recall guys at the party making a bee line to her. The ladies at the party gave me the look. A acquaintance came up to me, and said, "She's very young Danielll?". She was 20? Anyway, everyone kinda of changed. They talked different. They talked like they did something wonderful by graduating. They were posing, instead of standing? The biggest poser had a job at Open Space. He thought he hit the lottery. That night he should have worn an ascot. Never talked to him again. I remember thinking this is it? Well it's better than working full time. Hiding in school was something I adored, but knew I was no different than anyone else. In all reality, I felt guilty. The worse day in school was better than any day at my part time jobs. The four years were fun. On the way home, Michelle said, "I've never felt so weird at a party." I had no idea what she was getting at other than being the worst party I have been to. She then said she felt like she didn't fit in. I told her, "I don't fit in with those people. College was a joke for the most part." I couldn't believe the way people changed. I had a steady girlfriend who went to UCD. She was a different person upon graduating. Just so full of herself? I wasn't the greatest boyfriend either, by dating someone else, but I was young, and we both knew our relationship was baked years earlier. End of story, but reminded of my young pompous classmates upon graduation. Would I go to a alumni club after graduation--hell no, but colleges should provide them. I am a wacko, and despised networking, and schmoozing, but my classmates would be at the club. It would be a great selling point for colleges too? (I had a premed/business education from a state school. I guess it's a lot different than going to an Ivy League school? I honestly remember eight classes maybe, that I felt were worth the time. My rambling post is about the obnoxious levels of self accomplishment so many young grads have.)
alephnan 5y ago
I went to school in Seattle and had a Singaporean trustfund baby friend who always reiterated “everyone deserves to get a masters degree”. She would constantly fly to different cities every weekend on her own (parent’s) dime to volunteer for this non profit org called AIESEC. “Everyone deserves to travel.” To this day, I still don’t understand what this org does and it sounded like a cult or some kind of pyramid scheme. If you can’t explain what your org does in less than a paragraphs… it’s fluff to me. One concrete thing this student ran org did was help other students get internships, and yet ironically my friend never secured one herself. After her parents spent half a million on her tuition, room and board, she ended up going to a 3rd world country to become a tech recruiter making a fraction of US minimum wage. Now, instead of “everyone should get a masters degree”, it’s “everyone should contribute to the developing world”.
- jdlshore 5y ago
  I'm having trouble understanding the point of your story. It sounds like you don't think very highly of this friend. Does she know you talk about her this way?
  - alephnan 5y ago
    > Does she know you talk about her this way? Yes, I make it a very clear to remind people of their entitlement and privilege > It sounds like you don't think very highly of this friend. I don’t . I should have stated it was a college friend, now strangers. > I'm having trouble understanding the point of your story. Entitled “posh” people who got into these academic institutions because they’ve been told their whole life they are special. Completely unaware of their privilege, walking about lecturing and mansplaining to people about the virtuous route of academia / non-profit. Perpetual academia and not entering the real world, paying your own rent, paying for your own tuition, is a privilege
    - redis_mlc 5y ago
      Why do you feel it's your job to point out people's privilege or entitlement? Who asked you to judge them? It's none of your business.
psychomugs 5y ago
I went to a public state school for undergrad and a private Ivy for grad school. While there are diverse socioeconomic backgrounds at the latter, people with similar backgrounds as myself are definitely far and few between. The standards of living is far removed from the penny-scrounging dollar-menu-eating existence that I knew. I'm still taken aback by the disparity in leisure activities; it seems like a lot of people here escape to some international Instagrammable getaway for a weeklong academic break, whereas back home everyone would be fine just hunkering down or maybe visiting their parents for a weekend.
- today20201014 5y ago
  I have a similar story; undergrad at a public state school and grad at a private Ivy. My experience at the Ivy was eye-openi. The loudest [1] Ivy undergrads came from private elementary/high schools and had a very dismissive view of the students who matriculated from public elementary/high schools. Academic breaks were used for luxury travel. [1] "loudest" in the sense that they made sure that other students knew where they came from.
  - psychomugs 5y ago
    At the risk of coming off as cantankerous, I think that this has worsened with the increasing immediacy of social sharing. Due to both the ephemerality and deluge of content that expedite a post's expiration date, there's even more pressure to stay on that FOMO-generating content treadmill. There were groups of students who kept partying throughout the pandemic and bragging about how "magical" their weekend wine tours and date nights were; any time I've been in a comparable situation, it's been kids acting and recording each other on their phones, feeding the simulation machine.
- hkmurakami 5y ago
  Allow me to share the class divide even within a place like Harvard Business School, dubbed "Section X" https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-business-students-see-class-as-divisive-an-issue-as-gender.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-busines...
ksec 5y ago
20 years later all I could remember from Uni was Drink, Drink and Drink. LOL All the people I know who interviewed for OxBridge were so god damn clever and smart I sometimes ( even til this day ) think whether they are human or not. They could learn a new subject far quicker than I do. And spend more time doing other mostly creative things. But nearly all of them ( at least those I knew ) quit their high paying job for something much simpler, Teaching, Fitness Training, Art or Traveling. And In my opinion I dont think Cambridge is in anyway similar to Oxford about posh people. Although a lot of comments seems to think otherwise.
- coopierez 5y ago
  This is purely anecdotal, but there is a certain pretension to Oxford that doesn't seem to be present at Cambridge.
TrackerFF 5y ago
IIRC, the "Up!" film/documentary series kind of showed the way these people diverged. It's ages since I watched that series, but it was incredibly fascinating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_(film_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_(film_series)
SrslyJosh 5y ago
Monty Python already did this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs
weeboid 5y ago
Glug, even talking about class is itself a class marker. Get new money and wait it out, or deal with it. Fortunes are made through malice
Overdr0ne 5y ago
The first rule of ditch digging is to stop digging ditches. I love my hometown, but it was a slog wading through all the people who ultimately wanted to keep me under their thumb. Many of them so close that I just couldn't see it until a lot of damage had been done. Everyone has feelings of jealousy, whether they are conscious of it or not, and the closer you are, the more likely it is you will be competing over resources, the conflicts of interest are just inherent. They told me to work hard, but their idea of working hard was often just making the same damn mistake over and over again, as long as no one had to admit they were wrong, as long as authority was respected and hierarchy maintained. Whether your brow is high or low, I think you just have to learn to break free from those people, and learn to think for yourself, because they are everywhere, because it is an intrinsic consequence of social organization.
agent008t 5y ago
I expected Oxford undergraduates to be the best from all over the world, intensely passionate about their subjects. What I found were kids more passionate about drinking and clubbing and gossiping than studying. There seemed to be some weird hierarchy about who sits where in the dining hall that was completely bizarre. 'Default' social activities organized by the various committees all involved brain-dead clubbing and irresponsible drinking - at Oxford! Or sometimes 'posh' versions of those, where you wear black tie and aimlessly wander around some area holding a glass of sparking wine until you are bored out of your skull, a.k.a. a ball. The more ambitious kids were more busy padding their CV to land a good job than doing what interests them. It was not like the world of Turing or Feynman at all. The academic part of life was good. The tutorial system is great, lectures were OK, practicals were good. The selection of courses was great. But doing CS, there were few opportunities to socialize with people in your degree - you see them in the lectures, then you go back to your college. And that isn't great - perhaps it's good for people that are doing humanities and need to 'network', but for anyone doing anything interesting, you are not going to find too much in common with an undergrad studying English literature and more interested in drinking and pointless gossip/small talk. And even many in the CS degree did not seem to have that 'hacker' mentality - that was mostly seen in international students. What I found shocking is that so many students were doing poorly academically. The coursework and the exams were not super challenging, especially given that you chose so many of the courses, so you were mostly studying the actual things you wanted to study. Given that Oxford was supposed to have the very best students, passionate about their subjects, it was really odd how little so many cared. Again, very strangely, few undergrad students from England seemed to go on to do Master's or PhDs, but many international students did. The graduate-level environment seemed much better, too.
- thorin 5y ago
  A lot of the stuff you mention, the drinking/clubbing is just true of teenagers / young people in the UK and you probably missed out the drugs and sex. When I went to a "top tier" uni in the 90s after watching the young ones and reading adrian mole I expected students to be going to rallies and being "intellectual". I spent more time reading about other subjects than my own and underperformed in my degree. Students were mostly over-privileged rich kids, doing exactly what you'd expect young people to do when they first got a chance of freedom. I was lucky enough to get a full grant, which I wouldn't get now and overall I enjoyed the experience, which echoed far after I left the environment. It wasn't quite what I expected it would be though.
frereubu 5y ago
Although not working class by any means, I experienced a similar kind of culture shock after going to state schools until I was 16, then spending two years doing my A-levels at a very expensive boarding school. I was the commoner, surrounded by people whose parents own diamond mines in South Africa, investment banks in Hong Kong, large country estates in Scotland. There were some nice people there and I made some good friends, but there were also plenty of other people with the unquestioning belief that Rebanks describes - effectively that they were born to rule. It could be really intimidating, to the point where the belief was so strong that it bent reality and could convince other, less-well-off people to play into the submissive role that their confidence implied. However, if you started not to play the game, they became really unsettled, like they didn't have any flexibility - it was all based on a fixed set of scripts that most people didn't deviate from. Also reminds me of that school report of Boris Johnson - "Boris really has adopted a disgracefully cavalier attitude to his classical studies. It is a question of priorities, which most of his colleagues have no difficulty in sorting out. Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half). I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else." Plus ça change. https://twitter.com/lettersofnote/status/1094970662828101632?lang=en https://twitter.com/lettersofnote/status/1094970662828101632...
watersb 5y ago
Excellent. There is a shift from university for its own sake, back to skilled work in making things. A more rational motivation. I was far too often, far too much like the arrogant snots the author encountered at university; I had been conditioned to be the smartest guy in the room. But I was passionate about computers and the engineering that had created them, and I worked hard. Not sure that the space I was taking up would have had more benefit to someone else.
wccrawford 5y ago
> No one asked whether these students were really the most intelligent people. Right, it only confirmed that they met the minimum standards of the University and had graduated. It was never about "most intelligent", but merely met a minimum requirement of knowledge and intelligence. And there are plenty of people who fail to meet that requirement, but despite what they say about "college level iq", most people can pass if they work at it. After all that, the author still manages to go back to their "us vs them" thinking, too. They're still looking down on people who weren't raised like they were.
known 5y ago
Like father, not like son in https://archive.is/YIjwk https://archive.is/YIjwk
erwan577 5y ago
So if you are a self motivated CS type of person considering what kind of education is available to you and that "socializing" is not your panacea, is there any alternative to the traditional college? Would Bill Gates still drop out of Harvard these days?
- sgt101 5y ago
  Try MIT. In the UK Imperial is probably the closest to what you are looking for I guess.
- Jhsto 5y ago
  There are still many ways to complete a college education. At best, college can teach you about rigour and timely topics that are both worthwhile and necessary for independent study. Some shortcuts to these could be, e.g., to work as an undergraduate research assistant. Another option is VC type of funding. If you already have the chops to be convincing and work on relevant topic, places like Thiel Fellowship or YC might give you alternative approaches to learning. As for Gates I do not know. In general, I would assume that the value of a university degree has only declined since then.
k__ 5y ago
What I learned from going to university, after growing up as a working class child, was, don't play predefined games. Those people with academic parents/relatives will all come prepared. They will drink more than you at parties and still ace their exams without any problems. Your best chance of success are ways of life that aren't easily prepared for, because it levels the field.
Neil44 5y ago
A lot of what he experienced boils down to whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're correct either way.
azangru 5y ago
> I look at bookshop shelves and wonder where half the stories are. Where’s the book by the girl that works in the laundrette, the man who serves you in McDonalds, the Romanian woman who cleans your hotel room, by the lads that work on the railways or the building site? We don’t care about these people enough because they don’t get heard, and they don’t get heard because we build a success machine that they don’t want to be part of, or can’t access, or use, or afford. This is a strange sentiment. How many girls working in laundrettes, or men working at McDonalds, or lads working on the railways, or especially Romanian women who clean hotel rooms, can and do write quality fiction or non-fiction in their spare time and submit it to publishers? Sure, some authors have come from working-class background and had all sorts of menial jobs in their youth, which has made their books all the more interesting; but they also had something else. They had a rare sort of imagination, a love of the written word, an incredible drive to write, and a skill they had developed through continuous writing. At least the posh class is required to read and is instructed in writing as part of their education; so it's easier for the talented among them to discover their talents.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  I think that's the point. The education for working-class people does not encourage imagination, writing (or even reading) for pleasure. The state school system is designed to turn out conforming factory workers (literally - that's what it was founded to do). How many Einsteins spent their lives working in a coal mine because that's the only thing that their entire upbringing prepared them for?
lbriner 5y ago
I suppose that Oxford and Cambridge might be a poor example since I went to Warwick, still a top-5 uni (depending on who you ask ;-) and found the people there to be very welcoming to me, as someone also from a London Comp and a working class family. I was treated as an equal, although I was also 2 years older than most others so that gained me some respect. There is a deeper issue for sure, which is related to the relevance of University education in many sectors. Medical, legal, humanities probably still belong there since there is a large breadth of knowledge as well as many years of precedence to learn. For engineering, most people would probably be better off learning on the job, perhaps with day release to college. I found my Electrical Engineering degree far inferior to my college-level Engineering training and more suitable for those who plan to enter research rather than most of us who just wanted a good job.
barry27 5y ago
i found that unenlightening.

293 points by hownottowrite 5y ago

I'm currently reading Taleb's Antifragility book and he strikes a similar tune: The education system being little more than a way to cement social status, with actual innovation and entrepreneurship largely taking place outside it. Wealth leads to education, not the other way around. I find this topic fascinating and it makes me see discussions about underfunded education systems and universities from a different angle.

bildung 5y ago
I haven't read the book, but have often heard that trope - did he write about actual research into the topic? I ask because in the fields I'm familiar with many innovative approaches are actually university spin-offs. Edit: The point of this beautiful article, "a society that is blind to the potential of so many of its young people, is a wasteful, unfair and ineffective society" is a sad truth, but in my opinion the answer is openening the institution up, not abolishing it. Those people didn't learn middle class behaviour in universities, they were socialized with it since birth. Good, widely available public education is an effective means to level out this class-based inequality.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  Same. The yearly local value added from eship alone at the university I work at is in the 200-300M+ USD/CHF range. The global value added is significantly higher. I imagine that technical universities, like ETHZ/EPFL, have a much larger annual impact
iratic0 5y ago
"Wealth leads to education". This is how it used to be. The "Liberal" Arts were named so as the sort of people who studied them had freedom from normal labour. Then came the push in the 80s to 00s to get more working class kids into higher education, so they could have the same opportunities as upper class folk, thinking education leads to wealth. Instead we've just ended up with a bunch of working class kids graduating to become baristas. Education doesn't lead to real wealth. University educated higher professionals still go back to their middle class home to open a carton of orange juice. Having started a business recently, I've realised how much I didn't need anything I learned at uni to do this.
- cafard 5y ago
  Boomer here. A number of my professors (at a so-so school in the US West) came from at best lower middle class families and went through college on the GI Bill. One of the better ones had been something like a signalman in the Navy, another (a star from whom I never took a class) did enlisted service in the USAAF, I think. Alvin Kernan, who had a long career in academia, wrote in the early pages of his memoir In Plato's Cave of the influx of men like himself, attending college on the GI Bill in the late 1940s.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  Eh, a lot of folks forget that the shift to the liberal arts after the 50s had a lot to do with a surplus of engineers (and relatively lower salaries for their capabilities) and the desire to get into corporate management positions, which was a reasonable ambition before the popularity of MBAs and business programs.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > Then came the push in the 80s to 00s to get more working class kids into higher education, so they could have the same opportunities as upper class folk, thinking education leads to wealth. Instead we've just ended up with a bunch of working class kids graduating to become baristas. How much of this is just being stuck in old mindsets? I went to an expensive private school with lots of rich people and just 1 student chose a program outside of business, engineering, or medicine and we were far from a science school. It was clearly understood that arts was a path to serving coffee. A school that arguably had more people win essay/book competitions than science fairs produced nobody in those areas. In university, I met tons of people who thought that having a degree alone opened up a pile of job options. They were 20 years behind the mindset of my private school. It is now that certain education leads to wealth and plenty of people are doing education which does not.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
TimPC 5y ago
Innovation and Entrepreneurship are supposed to take place outside of academia. Core research is the mission of academia. The research that doesn’t have the immediate returns or value capture to justify starting a company around. Some exceptions where academics launch businesses from their research but those are exactly that, exceptions.

CapitalistCartr 5y ago

His last paragraph nails it: "I can see why people are sceptical about universities, and angry at the elite ones. They are often now little more than training camps for the stormtroopers of capitalism."

stablenode 5y ago
Yes, damn those stormtroopers of capitalism! How dare they be in it for themselves! I mean, people pursuing their self interest (at the expense of whom, exactly?) is immoral, innit?
- approxim8ion 5y ago
  > at the expense of whom, exactly? Everyone they step on along the way.
  - stablenode 5y ago
    Could you develop that point? I went to a northern comprehensive; I now lecture CS, but I have no recollection of being 'stepped on' by the Tarquins and Glorias of this world along the way -- in fact, I always felt that it is they who should be worried if they try. You may have some self esteem issues, mate.
    - approxim8ion 5y ago
      I do have self-esteem issues, good catch, but I doubt my getting therapy would do much about already underpaid workers whose bosses are raking in bonuses while signing off on orders to furlough them, for example.
      - stablenode 5y ago
        Ok. This sounds like a bit of a change of subject, but I think I follow. This all sounds a bit general: which 'underpaid workers' (and what is 'underpaid'?), which bosses, and how much are they 'raking in', is it illegal? You need to be more precise to diagnose a problem. More importantly -- what are these people of whom you speak doing about improving their condition? Are they demanding a raise? You have my sympathy if you are the one stuck with an unreasonable employer and feel that you are underpaid: my advice would be to look for a new job and tell your employer where to go once you've found one. However, if you are not in that category -- I have to say that I've never found the altruistic Guardianista (there -- I've said it!) approach to economic problems to be at all credible. It all smacks of some perverse neo-Christian moralising about what's 'fair' and 'good'. You can nearly always tell that an economic argument is lost when people start speaking about morality. If you want to go to Heaven, you're welcome. Me -- I'd rather go to Disneyland : at least it's actually there (besides, I've never been before).

vletal 5y ago

My life goal was to attend one of these elite universities. I desired to work at companies such as Google or Apple. After graduating from the Czech Technical University I realized that 1. I am much less special then I thought 2. There is much more hard working focused average people then the few talented superstars, both usually achieving the same 3. Surprisingly many of the exceptionally smart people in my social bubble, some of them graduated from the best universities in the world, "left the system" and focus on doing creative small thing's in their everyday life, instead of pursuing their parents dreams 4. Work, life, and social structure is extremely unfair 5. I will do my best to teach my kinds to strive for understanding, a love for beauty and a complexity of the world, instead of focusing on grades and stuff 6. The two guys I knew, who attended Oxf. and Camb. were both fired because they were more talk then action. Not a representative sample though. Just ruining my illusion.

runawaybottle 5y ago
#3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Take your average bootcamper, they usually rack up a huge bill majoring in something in college (often a literal dream major), then somehow field a 17k check to just waltz over to tech when they need an office job finally. Not everyone can do this. You have to be really lucky to play games like that and still be fine. The same goes for ‘going off to start my own food truck’. These options don’t exist for people that can only afford one solid go at this.
- js8 5y ago
  > #3 and #5 are by-products of extreme privilege. Just to clarify, Czech Technical University is free (for Czech citizens) - I also graduated there. I understand what you're saying, but I am somehow repulsed by the idea that such a system is considered a "privilege". It doesn't have to be a privilege. If you don't have good public universities in your country, you should consider getting involved in politics.
  - runawaybottle 5y ago
    My point was mostly centered around freedom. Everyone knows the rules of the game. Those who can’t toy around, play the game straight and narrow (good grades, stay focused on one concentration, and hope you picked well). It’s a luxury to try one thing or another, no matter the cost (cash and time), and still land in an ideal situation as life progresses.

osrec 5y ago

As someone who was also raised in the North of England, went to a state school, and also ended up going to Oxford, this article is spot on. It took me a while to realise that the state educated people were often the more talented ones (they've not had anything handed to them on a plate), and our lack of poshness was actually something to be proud of - not something to feel inferior about!

iratic0 5y ago
Also comp educated and went to Oxford. I feel like in the last 5 years or so it's become "uncool" to be posh. Feel like this has been instigated by (in the West) Brexit and Trump bringing the Establishment down a notch.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  When has it ever been cool to be posh?
  - iratic0 5y ago
    In the UK after the Conservatives came to power in 2010 electing an Old Etonian, I felt culturally there was a shift towards "posh" is good as a signifier of status and social power. I feel like in the last 5 years or so it has turned to posh is "uncool". In the US, I feel like they had something similar. Obama was elected in 2008, but some people did have concerns of electing someone unestablished. To assuage these concerns, Obama promoted and kept safe the interests the elite at the time. Not detracting Obama here - that's the position he was in back in 2008 when some would have considered electing a black man to the Office as unthinkable.
    - ksec 5y ago
      Interesting observation.
    - lupire 5y ago
      What president has ever not promoted the elite? Was Jimmy Carter posh? Harry Truman?

gyulai 5y ago

I've studied in Cambridge myself, and feel like some context needs to be added here for American readers not to misunderstand something here: Admission to Cambridge & Oxford isn't related to family wealth in the same way as admission to "elite" universities in the U.S. For example: Tuition fees are in line with government-set rates and are no different for these institutions than other British universities (at least it was that way, back when I was there in 2005-2009). While the U.K. was part of the E.U. these low rates even applied to students coming to study there from elsewhere in the E.U. It is only "overseas" students who are asked to pay significantly more. One thing that I found noteworthy when applying was also the fact that, for Cambridge, the admissions process had two phases: The first was academic acceptance. Those application forms made absolutely no mention of money. After a student has been academically accepted, there is a second phase in the application process that involves application to scholarships and ends with the applicant having to provide proof that they have the required funds to sustain themselves through the study period. This was very different from what I remember about applying to universities in the U.S. which asked you to disclose your family's financial situation on the same application form that was also used to decide academic acceptance. That form, incidentally, also asked about things like family members who have attended the same university, etc. ...so there is much less transparency there to guarantee that a U.S. school wouldn't just use your socioeconomic standing directly as a criterion to decide admission. There are, of course, impediments to social mobility into the class of Oxbridge-educated people, but it revolves more around academics than about money. For example, I found that the students disproportionately came from families where their parents were career academics. The relationship with those families having a lot of money was not something I particularly noticed. The "poshness" of it all, particularly where undergraduate circles are concerned, also comes to a large extent from free choices that students themselves make to try to socially set themselves apart from their peers at other unversities. For example many willfully adopt "received pronunciation" to replace their natural dialects.

varispeed 5y ago
Do you think universities still offer knowledge otherwise not accessible anywhere else? I mean, there are courses that require "hands on" experience and guidance, but for things like IT, how uni is any better than e.g. Udemy, free lectures from around the world and meetups?

WastingMyTime89 5y ago

As an Oxford alumni, I would personally focus on this more: "But Oxford wasn’t like that. The teaching was personalised, flexible and interactive. That kind of system keeps people like me in the room, fired up and engaged. Kids like me, who don’t flourish in school, can benefit from such attention, and focus, and belief. A good society would strive to give it to them." Oxford provides an amazing environment if you genuinely want to learn and improve and the university actually seems to care about you succeeding. The time I spent there remain a decade later some of the most enjoyable in my life.

deleted 5y ago
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Cyril_HN 5y ago
Interestingly, I wouldn't suggest that that has anything (or much) at all to do with "elite" universities. At St Andrews I didn't find that to be true. At a far less prestigious university, it was true. My cohort largely agrees with that assessment, too.
dang 5y ago
I've detached this comment from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27342661 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27342661, even though that deprives it of context, because it's better than the flamewar it got stuck in.
jjgreen 5y ago
Alumnus or alumna, surely :-)

bogle 5y ago

"The Shepherd's Life" is a great book, especially if you know the landscape he's farming. It's only a shame that you've now got a spoiler in discovering that he was so very clever and went to Oxford. Otherwise his is one of the rare stories of lives we tend not to read about.

cblconfederate 5y ago

The UK has made an export industry out of this snobbery and attracts hundreds of thousands of international students for this prestige. I wonder if ethologists have studied this behavior. Queen bees are not selected with an IQ test, they re selected randomly and raised by the plebs to become their queen.It's a successful strategy evidently. I guess something similar might work in primates where the random selection is the 'nearest trusted family friend'.

pm90 5y ago
I’m not so sure. The Queen bees responsibilities as a “leader” are literally just to stay alive and reproduce. Most primate leaders have a lot more responsibilities which they need to excel at. Maybe statistically they still turn out to not matter? Would be interesting to know.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  > which they need to excel at. they usually need to keep themselves in power / get reelected. Not necessarily a criterion of excellence.
  - pm90 5y ago
    Ineffective leadership for tribes would usually lead to its destruction.
    - cblconfederate 5y ago
      there s a lot of space between effective and excellent
goldcd 5y ago
Just picking up on the Queen Bee point - there can be multiple queen bees created, and when they hatch the first thing they do is kill all unborn queens and then fight to the death any that also hatched.

LysPJ 5y ago

In the article, there is the following quote: > "But you’re thick like me", he said For any readers who aren't familiar with British slang: the word "thick" means "stupid" in this context (as you have no-doubt worked out!).

jgrahamc 5y ago

The teaching was personalised, flexible and interactive. That kind of system keeps people like me in the room, fired up and engaged. Kids like me, who don’t flourish in school, can benefit from such attention, and focus, and belief. A good society would strive to give it to them. Yes, this is the best part of Oxford. My undergraduate education there consisted of: 1. Lectures to large groups of students 2. Some small classes 3. One-on-one or one-on-two "tutorials" with specialists in their subjects #3 is the core of the Oxford system and is what makes it (and a small number of other UK universities who do this) special. I went there from a bog-standard state school and it was an excellent education.

2wrist 5y ago
This is what resonates with me, I went to a declining secondary school inthe UK and the amount of clever, clever kids who were written off because they were poor, or their parents were from the wrong side was scary. They just didn't bother with them. So much wasted talent and potential. Think of how much they could have contributed to society.

AlexSW 5y ago

I went to a state school and state sixth form, and my experience definitely deviates from that presented in the article and some other comments here. I think the part of the article which focuses on more personalised teaching rings the most true for me. There may be differences due to the subject, level, or college. I did a one-year masters in STEM in a very international graduate Oxford college. But the vast majority of members of the college were hard working, insightful, friendly, and not at all posh. There was a very friendly and open social life, and I definitely don't consider there to have been a great facade presented. Perhaps I would have found different in an undergraduate degree in the arts, or a different college, but I didn't get that sense from the people I spoke to from other colleges and faculties. My best guess is the Oxford college the article writer ended up in was rather more grand and snobby than any of those I spent time at. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that this certainly isn't the only experience, and I'm confident none of the friends I made there would relate to the article's assessment. I found it a fantastic place to meet insightful, honest, friendly people in addition to all of its merits for learning.

stablenode 5y ago
Similar story here. Perhaps arts degrees are different, but I could not relate this piece to any of my experiences from when I was studying for a CS degree. It felt as though the author was writing about a different country.
- AlexSW 5y ago
  I had several close friends studying for their own Masters degrees in subdesciplines of Anthropolgy and History of Art, and I'm not aware of them having had different experiences either, so my current best guess is down to it perhaps being an undergraduate degree in one of the most exclusive colleges.
madaxe_again 5y ago
In U.K. collegiate universities, like Oxbridge and Durham, there is a huge cultural divide between colleges and courses. I went to Durham. I was - I am - a posh kid - albeit one who’s acutely and painfully aware of his advantage. The college I was in was stacked to the rafters with posh kids. Everything orbited the social life - the balls, the ents, who was where in the pecking order of committees and executives. I mean, the college was in a literal castle. If you were reading arts, it was easy enough to stay entirely within that world. Economics, politics, classics, history, philosophy, etc., were all filled with pashminas and brogues. I spent time in those lectures as I was running a miniature essay mill to boost my social standing, as that was just what you did. I read physics - and the crowd couldn’t have been more different. The majority of science students were in the hill colleges, nearer the science campus, and came from state schools, rather than the mess of public school alumna you found in the Bailey colleges. I was a lone wool blazer in a lecture theatre full of t-shirts, rope-knit jumpers, pink hair and leather jackets. For me, it was an illuminating experience, and it made me realise that I didn’t really fit in either tribe - although 20 years on, the few people I’m still in touch with are from my course, not my college. The U.K. is a peculiar place when it comes to class. I realised over the years that how I said what I said, how I spoke, how I dressed, were all far more important to our business (because of course I started a business, with a posh friend from school) success than what we said, what we did. To other posh people, it says you’re one of the club, you can be trusted, nice school tie - to people from outside that world, it induces either a hat-clutching deferent reverence, or outright hostility. I liked the people who were outright hostile, because by that point I absolutely hated the same thing that they did - even though I benefited from it. Anyway. Experiences vary, and which college you’re in has a huge impact.

dt3ft 5y ago

Story of my life.

johncena33 5y ago

I have very similar experience as the author. I come from a small town in a poor country. On top of it's culturally inappropriate to brag about oneself. My first years living in a big city in North America was very hard on me. Everyone is at the center of the universe. Everyone is just too cool, too savvy and so high opinion about themselves to be friend with someone like me. After couple of years, now I can see through the BS and the whole high self-esteem culture behind it. North America is a very unique culture where having a (often unrealistic) high opinion about oneself is seen as virtue. Immigrants like me, who are not familar with North American cultural schtick, can easily fall for the whole high self-esteem ruse.

vr46 5y ago

I am acquainted with a disproportionate number of Oxbridge grads, mainly through my old school, which has always targeted those universities for its boys. While everyone is smart and pleasant, there is the constant reinforcement that Oxbridge grads seek each other out throughout their lives to almost exclusively hang out with each other. I mean, as towns they're not exactly next door, but in London there is the joint Oxford and Cambridge club on Pall Mall so they can carry on as they were. They're often hopelessly insular in this regard and I have never quite understood it. Why your university would provide such a strong identity for yourself all your life, I don't get.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Actually, for what most colleges charge, they should provide free clubs for alumni? Although, the thought of my pompous college mates is not a memory I want to think about today though. I went to a state school. I honestly thought my local community college did a much better job, but graduated anyways. I went to a professional school, and kinda thought the same--a whole lot of wasted time. I will never forget our last party though. Everyone graduated with their degree. We were at this party, and the atmosphere was different. I couldn't figure it out until years later though. My date that night was a stunning, innocent, affable, young lady. I recall guys at the party making a bee line to her. The ladies at the party gave me the look. A acquaintance came up to me, and said, "She's very young Danielll?". She was 20? Anyway, everyone kinda of changed. They talked different. They talked like they did something wonderful by graduating. They were posing, instead of standing? The biggest poser had a job at Open Space. He thought he hit the lottery. That night he should have worn an ascot. Never talked to him again. I remember thinking this is it? Well it's better than working full time. Hiding in school was something I adored, but knew I was no different than anyone else. In all reality, I felt guilty. The worse day in school was better than any day at my part time jobs. The four years were fun. On the way home, Michelle said, "I've never felt so weird at a party." I had no idea what she was getting at other than being the worst party I have been to. She then said she felt like she didn't fit in. I told her, "I don't fit in with those people. College was a joke for the most part." I couldn't believe the way people changed. I had a steady girlfriend who went to UCD. She was a different person upon graduating. Just so full of herself? I wasn't the greatest boyfriend either, by dating someone else, but I was young, and we both knew our relationship was baked years earlier. End of story, but reminded of my young pompous classmates upon graduation. Would I go to a alumni club after graduation--hell no, but colleges should provide them. I am a wacko, and despised networking, and schmoozing, but my classmates would be at the club. It would be a great selling point for colleges too? (I had a premed/business education from a state school. I guess it's a lot different than going to an Ivy League school? I honestly remember eight classes maybe, that I felt were worth the time. My rambling post is about the obnoxious levels of self accomplishment so many young grads have.)

alephnan 5y ago

I went to school in Seattle and had a Singaporean trustfund baby friend who always reiterated “everyone deserves to get a masters degree”. She would constantly fly to different cities every weekend on her own (parent’s) dime to volunteer for this non profit org called AIESEC. “Everyone deserves to travel.” To this day, I still don’t understand what this org does and it sounded like a cult or some kind of pyramid scheme. If you can’t explain what your org does in less than a paragraphs… it’s fluff to me. One concrete thing this student ran org did was help other students get internships, and yet ironically my friend never secured one herself. After her parents spent half a million on her tuition, room and board, she ended up going to a 3rd world country to become a tech recruiter making a fraction of US minimum wage. Now, instead of “everyone should get a masters degree”, it’s “everyone should contribute to the developing world”.

jdlshore 5y ago
I'm having trouble understanding the point of your story. It sounds like you don't think very highly of this friend. Does she know you talk about her this way?
- alephnan 5y ago
  > Does she know you talk about her this way? Yes, I make it a very clear to remind people of their entitlement and privilege > It sounds like you don't think very highly of this friend. I don’t . I should have stated it was a college friend, now strangers. > I'm having trouble understanding the point of your story. Entitled “posh” people who got into these academic institutions because they’ve been told their whole life they are special. Completely unaware of their privilege, walking about lecturing and mansplaining to people about the virtuous route of academia / non-profit. Perpetual academia and not entering the real world, paying your own rent, paying for your own tuition, is a privilege
  - redis_mlc 5y ago
    Why do you feel it's your job to point out people's privilege or entitlement? Who asked you to judge them? It's none of your business.

psychomugs 5y ago

I went to a public state school for undergrad and a private Ivy for grad school. While there are diverse socioeconomic backgrounds at the latter, people with similar backgrounds as myself are definitely far and few between. The standards of living is far removed from the penny-scrounging dollar-menu-eating existence that I knew. I'm still taken aback by the disparity in leisure activities; it seems like a lot of people here escape to some international Instagrammable getaway for a weeklong academic break, whereas back home everyone would be fine just hunkering down or maybe visiting their parents for a weekend.

today20201014 5y ago
I have a similar story; undergrad at a public state school and grad at a private Ivy. My experience at the Ivy was eye-openi. The loudest [1] Ivy undergrads came from private elementary/high schools and had a very dismissive view of the students who matriculated from public elementary/high schools. Academic breaks were used for luxury travel. [1] "loudest" in the sense that they made sure that other students knew where they came from.
- psychomugs 5y ago
  At the risk of coming off as cantankerous, I think that this has worsened with the increasing immediacy of social sharing. Due to both the ephemerality and deluge of content that expedite a post's expiration date, there's even more pressure to stay on that FOMO-generating content treadmill. There were groups of students who kept partying throughout the pandemic and bragging about how "magical" their weekend wine tours and date nights were; any time I've been in a comparable situation, it's been kids acting and recording each other on their phones, feeding the simulation machine.
hkmurakami 5y ago
Allow me to share the class divide even within a place like Harvard Business School, dubbed "Section X" https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-business-students-see-class-as-divisive-an-issue-as-gender.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/education/harvard-busines...

ksec 5y ago

20 years later all I could remember from Uni was Drink, Drink and Drink. LOL All the people I know who interviewed for OxBridge were so god damn clever and smart I sometimes ( even til this day ) think whether they are human or not. They could learn a new subject far quicker than I do. And spend more time doing other mostly creative things. But nearly all of them ( at least those I knew ) quit their high paying job for something much simpler, Teaching, Fitness Training, Art or Traveling. And In my opinion I dont think Cambridge is in anyway similar to Oxford about posh people. Although a lot of comments seems to think otherwise.

coopierez 5y ago
This is purely anecdotal, but there is a certain pretension to Oxford that doesn't seem to be present at Cambridge.

TrackerFF 5y ago

IIRC, the "Up!" film/documentary series kind of showed the way these people diverged. It's ages since I watched that series, but it was incredibly fascinating. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_(film_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_(film_series)

SrslyJosh 5y ago

Monty Python already did this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGxSM5y7Pfs

weeboid 5y ago

Glug, even talking about class is itself a class marker. Get new money and wait it out, or deal with it. Fortunes are made through malice

Overdr0ne 5y ago

The first rule of ditch digging is to stop digging ditches. I love my hometown, but it was a slog wading through all the people who ultimately wanted to keep me under their thumb. Many of them so close that I just couldn't see it until a lot of damage had been done. Everyone has feelings of jealousy, whether they are conscious of it or not, and the closer you are, the more likely it is you will be competing over resources, the conflicts of interest are just inherent. They told me to work hard, but their idea of working hard was often just making the same damn mistake over and over again, as long as no one had to admit they were wrong, as long as authority was respected and hierarchy maintained. Whether your brow is high or low, I think you just have to learn to break free from those people, and learn to think for yourself, because they are everywhere, because it is an intrinsic consequence of social organization.

agent008t 5y ago

I expected Oxford undergraduates to be the best from all over the world, intensely passionate about their subjects. What I found were kids more passionate about drinking and clubbing and gossiping than studying. There seemed to be some weird hierarchy about who sits where in the dining hall that was completely bizarre. 'Default' social activities organized by the various committees all involved brain-dead clubbing and irresponsible drinking - at Oxford! Or sometimes 'posh' versions of those, where you wear black tie and aimlessly wander around some area holding a glass of sparking wine until you are bored out of your skull, a.k.a. a ball. The more ambitious kids were more busy padding their CV to land a good job than doing what interests them. It was not like the world of Turing or Feynman at all. The academic part of life was good. The tutorial system is great, lectures were OK, practicals were good. The selection of courses was great. But doing CS, there were few opportunities to socialize with people in your degree - you see them in the lectures, then you go back to your college. And that isn't great - perhaps it's good for people that are doing humanities and need to 'network', but for anyone doing anything interesting, you are not going to find too much in common with an undergrad studying English literature and more interested in drinking and pointless gossip/small talk. And even many in the CS degree did not seem to have that 'hacker' mentality - that was mostly seen in international students. What I found shocking is that so many students were doing poorly academically. The coursework and the exams were not super challenging, especially given that you chose so many of the courses, so you were mostly studying the actual things you wanted to study. Given that Oxford was supposed to have the very best students, passionate about their subjects, it was really odd how little so many cared. Again, very strangely, few undergrad students from England seemed to go on to do Master's or PhDs, but many international students did. The graduate-level environment seemed much better, too.

thorin 5y ago
A lot of the stuff you mention, the drinking/clubbing is just true of teenagers / young people in the UK and you probably missed out the drugs and sex. When I went to a "top tier" uni in the 90s after watching the young ones and reading adrian mole I expected students to be going to rallies and being "intellectual". I spent more time reading about other subjects than my own and underperformed in my degree. Students were mostly over-privileged rich kids, doing exactly what you'd expect young people to do when they first got a chance of freedom. I was lucky enough to get a full grant, which I wouldn't get now and overall I enjoyed the experience, which echoed far after I left the environment. It wasn't quite what I expected it would be though.

frereubu 5y ago

Although not working class by any means, I experienced a similar kind of culture shock after going to state schools until I was 16, then spending two years doing my A-levels at a very expensive boarding school. I was the commoner, surrounded by people whose parents own diamond mines in South Africa, investment banks in Hong Kong, large country estates in Scotland. There were some nice people there and I made some good friends, but there were also plenty of other people with the unquestioning belief that Rebanks describes - effectively that they were born to rule. It could be really intimidating, to the point where the belief was so strong that it bent reality and could convince other, less-well-off people to play into the submissive role that their confidence implied. However, if you started not to play the game, they became really unsettled, like they didn't have any flexibility - it was all based on a fixed set of scripts that most people didn't deviate from. Also reminds me of that school report of Boris Johnson - "Boris really has adopted a disgracefully cavalier attitude to his classical studies. It is a question of priorities, which most of his colleagues have no difficulty in sorting out. Boris sometimes seems affronted when criticised for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility (and surprised at the same time that he was not appointed Captain of the School for next half). I think he honestly believes that it is churlish of us not to regard him as an exception, one who should be free of the network of obligation which binds everyone else." Plus ça change. https://twitter.com/lettersofnote/status/1094970662828101632?lang=en https://twitter.com/lettersofnote/status/1094970662828101632...

watersb 5y ago

Excellent. There is a shift from university for its own sake, back to skilled work in making things. A more rational motivation. I was far too often, far too much like the arrogant snots the author encountered at university; I had been conditioned to be the smartest guy in the room. But I was passionate about computers and the engineering that had created them, and I worked hard. Not sure that the space I was taking up would have had more benefit to someone else.

wccrawford 5y ago

> No one asked whether these students were really the most intelligent people. Right, it only confirmed that they met the minimum standards of the University and had graduated. It was never about "most intelligent", but merely met a minimum requirement of knowledge and intelligence. And there are plenty of people who fail to meet that requirement, but despite what they say about "college level iq", most people can pass if they work at it. After all that, the author still manages to go back to their "us vs them" thinking, too. They're still looking down on people who weren't raised like they were.

known 5y ago

Like father, not like son in https://archive.is/YIjwk https://archive.is/YIjwk

erwan577 5y ago

So if you are a self motivated CS type of person considering what kind of education is available to you and that "socializing" is not your panacea, is there any alternative to the traditional college? Would Bill Gates still drop out of Harvard these days?

sgt101 5y ago
Try MIT. In the UK Imperial is probably the closest to what you are looking for I guess.
Jhsto 5y ago
There are still many ways to complete a college education. At best, college can teach you about rigour and timely topics that are both worthwhile and necessary for independent study. Some shortcuts to these could be, e.g., to work as an undergraduate research assistant. Another option is VC type of funding. If you already have the chops to be convincing and work on relevant topic, places like Thiel Fellowship or YC might give you alternative approaches to learning. As for Gates I do not know. In general, I would assume that the value of a university degree has only declined since then.

k__ 5y ago

What I learned from going to university, after growing up as a working class child, was, don't play predefined games. Those people with academic parents/relatives will all come prepared. They will drink more than you at parties and still ace their exams without any problems. Your best chance of success are ways of life that aren't easily prepared for, because it levels the field.

Neil44 5y ago

A lot of what he experienced boils down to whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're correct either way.

azangru 5y ago

> I look at bookshop shelves and wonder where half the stories are. Where’s the book by the girl that works in the laundrette, the man who serves you in McDonalds, the Romanian woman who cleans your hotel room, by the lads that work on the railways or the building site? We don’t care about these people enough because they don’t get heard, and they don’t get heard because we build a success machine that they don’t want to be part of, or can’t access, or use, or afford. This is a strange sentiment. How many girls working in laundrettes, or men working at McDonalds, or lads working on the railways, or especially Romanian women who clean hotel rooms, can and do write quality fiction or non-fiction in their spare time and submit it to publishers? Sure, some authors have come from working-class background and had all sorts of menial jobs in their youth, which has made their books all the more interesting; but they also had something else. They had a rare sort of imagination, a love of the written word, an incredible drive to write, and a skill they had developed through continuous writing. At least the posh class is required to read and is instructed in writing as part of their education; so it's easier for the talented among them to discover their talents.

marcus_holmes 5y ago
I think that's the point. The education for working-class people does not encourage imagination, writing (or even reading) for pleasure. The state school system is designed to turn out conforming factory workers (literally - that's what it was founded to do). How many Einsteins spent their lives working in a coal mine because that's the only thing that their entire upbringing prepared them for?

lbriner 5y ago

I suppose that Oxford and Cambridge might be a poor example since I went to Warwick, still a top-5 uni (depending on who you ask ;-) and found the people there to be very welcoming to me, as someone also from a London Comp and a working class family. I was treated as an equal, although I was also 2 years older than most others so that gained me some respect. There is a deeper issue for sure, which is related to the relevance of University education in many sectors. Medical, legal, humanities probably still belong there since there is a large breadth of knowledge as well as many years of precedence to learn. For engineering, most people would probably be better off learning on the job, perhaps with day release to college. I found my Electrical Engineering degree far inferior to my college-level Engineering training and more suitable for those who plan to enter research rather than most of us who just wanted a good job.

barry27 5y ago

i found that unenlightening.