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Tesla loses U.S. designation for some advanced safety features

186 points by camjohnson26 5y ago

sutherland 5y ago
This is part of Tesla's plan to transition to a vision-only system: - FUD-free Tesla Daily coverage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zsmZx4kfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zsmZx4kfA - Details from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision
- ffggvv 5y ago
  their decision to sell their auto kill software at all kills people. but they don’t care. as long as elon gets his pumps
  - xvector 5y ago
    This is correct. Tesla’s MO is implementing the “move fast and break things” methodology on real human beings in safety-critical situations. I don’t understand how anyone can support this. It should be illegal. I own a Model 3 and it will be my last Tesla.
    - ffggvv 5y ago
      its a shame because its a solid car if they didnt focus on all the lies, bad business practices, killing people etc and instead just focused on making it cheaper and better.
- RandomWorker 5y ago
  Right on, this might be a great move. Though radar is a powerful technology. Two camera's with the right depth sensing software behind it could do a lot. What about light source though? Camera's with great light sources provide a super powerful technology, but what are you going to do in the dark/rain? Then again, camera's are cheaper and can do better in some conditions with (semi)reflective surfaces. It's all up in the air, but making sense of the world in a moving object with constantly changing scenery and multiple other vehicles/cyclists/foot traffic moving around. I think the argument they make is quite interesting, with vision (our eyes) we do anything and everything in the car. Therefore, camera's are like eyes so they should give comparable performance. The fact is that the dynamic range of the eye is insane and no commercial camera can currently even come close to it. Once that technology is there, (which is physically impossible with the current sensor tech) I'd agree with them.
chronic83027 5y ago
- Tesla is lacking radar modules due to chip shortage - As a result, Tesla can’t make vehicles - Tesla (as always) is cutting it close to making a profit - Therefore, sell cars without radar - This “profit squeeze” is corroborated by this week’s (May 27) increase in vehicle prices by $500-$2,000, the reintroduction of enhanced autopilot for $4,000 and Elon trying to pump n dump crypto again with his “crypto eco-oversight committee”
- chovybizzass 5y ago
  I hate this guy now. I am hoping Bezos LEO starlink competitor will be better and cheaper. Amazon usually pretty good at middle-class price points. Also I sold all my TSLA for SPCE today
- bumby 5y ago
  >Tesla is lacking radar modules due to the chip shortage Is there evidence this is the motivation for the decision? I’m not skeptical, just couldn’t find it in the article. When I first read it, I assumed it a was a technology choice as there seems to be competing camps between cameras and radar. Musk has previously stated he was in the camera camp because they provide more information and I figured this was just a another step in solidifying that position.
  - valine 5y ago
    The radar chip shortage is pure speculation, no official word from Tesla on it. Seems to fit though as we know some M3 and MY were waiting on a part to ship. It's likely that Tesla was close to removing radar anyway and decided to accelerate the switch to pure vision.
  - sjcoles 5y ago
    Honda also announced they are removing radar and using video only adaptive cruise.
- bob33212 5y ago
  If in July the systems are safe and Beta FSD has improvements are you going to admit you were wrong about these things?
tapoxi 5y ago
Why are they removing these features from a car with a promise of patching them back in later? Shouldn’t that be ready to go before committing to a hardware change?
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Because the actual change is driven by supply chain issues w/ radar gear, and the vision-is-better party line is just to make it sell better.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    Can someone tell me if SpaceX's tail-landing rockets are vision-only systems? Street vehicle navigation seems at least as difficult as nailing a rocket landing.
    - agogdog 5y ago
      I'd argue that navigating streets is significantly harder than landing a rocket. Space X can land a rocket for example, but fully autonomous cars are still a ways off.
    - mdorazio 5y ago
      They are not. Cameras would not be all that useful. See [1] for an estimated system diagram - the main sensor stacks are based on AHRS and GPS. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/64ew8x/falcon_9_a_systems_overview/ https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/64ew8x/falcon_9_a_s...
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      It's a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison regarding "as hard as," but the answer to your question is that the rocket uses a combination of GPS for gross aiming followed by radar for fine-grained approach. Vision might be possible but presents challenges radar may not (including that as the rocket gets close to the pad, the back-blast form the exhaust obscures the pad).
    - 5y ago
TameAntelope 5y ago
I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plant-due-global-chip-shortage https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan...), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Tesla has been pushing camera-only autonomous driving (ditching LIDAR) since well before the chip shortage. I would assume this is part of the same drive.
    - _Microft 5y ago
      Tesla did not ditch LIDAR, they never actually used it (not in production cars at least?).
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      Tesla is ditching radar, not lidar.
    - chronic83027 5y ago
      As of May 2021, Tesla publicly announced they’re using lidar to develop FSD. https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-lidar-elon-musk-autonomous-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-li...
c0nsumer 5y ago
With a feature being pulled from already-sold vehicles, I wonder if this'll run into some Lemon Law issues. Because the vehicle no longer does what was sold, which is specifically protected by law in many states.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  This only applies to new vehicles that ship without the radar module. Tesla is switching to vision-only but the vision-only system hasn't been tested by the NHTSA. Nothing has changed for vehicles that have already shipped with radar modules.
  - soheil 5y ago
    Not true. If you made a reservation and signed the paperwork to take delivery in 4-11 weeks (more like 11 weeks as of now) the radar will be stripped from the car you're getting, it won't be the car you paid for. I think this is a good move by Tesla regardless and makes them focus on improving vision. No lidar and now no radar.
- mbreese 5y ago
  > pulled from already-sold vehicles The radar was pulled from already ordered vehicles. The sale isn't finalized until pickup. I assume they would allow the order to be canceled at least.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    The feature is intended to be removed from all vehicles, though, the radar will be turned off according to Tesla.
- nickik 5y ago
  They are actually improving features. This actually FIXES a major issue with the current system. Radar false positives have been the single most complained about problem with Autopilot.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
TL;DR: Tesla is removing radar from vehicles to transition to a vision-only system. They will ship vision-only cars before NHTSA has tested them, so the NHTSA can't certify untested vehicles. > Newer Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles will no longer be labeled as having some advanced safety features after the automaker said it was removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system
- akerl_ 5y ago
  Notably, even Tesla says that the vision-only cars will ship with reduced safety features which they’ll backfill later via software update. Given how long they’ve been promising that the FSD beta rollout is right around the corner, I’m not holding my breath.
  - takeda 5y ago
    I believe those are two different things. Tesla says that software update will be provided in the future that will enable these features using vision cameras (previously radar was used). NHTSA certified the radar solution and it didn't certified whether the vision one is as safe.
    - akerl_ 5y ago
      They’re the same thing: NHTSA certified the safety features provided by the radar. The vision system isn’t certified because it wasn’t reviewed, and it hasn’t been reviewed in part because Tesla hasn’t finished developing feature parity. So until they finish developing and releasing the features, they aren’t available. Once that’s happened, NHTSA can review them for certification.
paxys 5y ago
I'm having difficulty understanding the timeline here. - Tesla is going to remove radar from new Model 3 & Y cars starting later this month. - Tesla is going to add back the removed features via software updates at some point in the future. - All Model 3 & Y cars sold since April 27 will not have these NHTSA check marks. Why is there a one month overlap? What's different about the cars shipped on April 27?
- andrewmunsell 5y ago
  It's cars produced since April 27-- Tesla has been holding a decent number of cars for delivery (see: FB & Reddit complaints from people about their delivery dates being pushed back), so it's possible that the cars produced after the 27th were just not delivered before the software was ready for the bare minimum vision-only Autopilot.
justaguy88 5y ago
So if we were going to purchase one soon, should we instead wait for this to be fixed?
- goshx 5y ago
  There is nothing to be fixed. They are replacing radar with vision.
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    They're disabling some functions due to the switch and promising to bring them back with an update. So that's really a fix for something that isn't working anymore. If those features are important to you, it makes sense to wait for the update to be released before you buy. Don't trust a Tesla promise, wait for the feature to be there in reality. It took them a very long time to make the promised automatic wipers work last time...
    - goshx 5y ago
      "Autosteer will be limited to a maximum speed of 75 mph and a longer minimum following distance. Smart Summon (if equipped) and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery." Are these really important features that you would postpone a purchase of the car? With the exception of the "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance", no other car in the industry has these features anyways.
      - JoshGlazebrook 5y ago
        Many states have highway speed limits that _begin_ at 75mph. So yes this would mean autopilot (a huge selling point of these vehicles) is useless for highway driving, which is what autopilot in its current incarnation is meant for.
        goshx 5y ago
        You can still drive the car and this is temporary. To hold on to the purchase because of this is idiotic. And I am going to call out on your BS. No state begins at 75. Max speed in most states is 70 and 4 or 5 have a max speed of 80, which is the max across the country. So go lie somewhere else. https://www.iihs.org/topics/speed/speed-limit-laws https://www.iihs.org/topics/speed/speed-limit-laws
tpmx 5y ago
I'm going to assume that the vision-only system typically works okayish in Sunny California and in more climate-wise challenging regions, not.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  It also doesn't see in front of the car ahead of it. Which the radar can, and for me specifically has prevented accidents on rush hour highway traffic.
- mnouquet 5y ago
  If it doesn't work on snow covered roads, at night, in the middle of a snow storm, it's junk.
bosswipe 5y ago
The tell that their vision tech is not as good as radar is that their high end models, S and X, are keeping the radar.
- xvector 5y ago
  And also the fact that existing vehicles are keeping radar. And also the fact that Tesla says certain features like Autopilot may not work for some time until vision-based proximity is “ready.” That’s the biggest tell. If vision-based proximity was working, they’d roll it out to everyone and it would not be restricted off the bat. Instead it is clear that they are using new drivers as an A/B test or canary, because they are not yet confident their system is safe.
aaomidi 5y ago
This decision from Tesla is going to get people killed. Tesla owners, we should sue Tesla for this. They're going to take away features that influenced our purchasing decision with an OTA update. This should not be allowed.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  AFAIK, If you have a Tesla already, it will still use Radar. Model S/X also keep Radar. It's being removed from Model 3/Y. I placed an order in early April and I'm kind of miffed that (1) my delivery was delayed (my original order was supposed to be 4-8 weeks, I'm currently slated for ~10 weeks) (2) there seems to be supply chain issues, but the company denies it (3) after not shipping in cars for 2 months, they announce that radar is deprecated, and then suddenly people start taking deliveries. My biggest fear is that Autopilot won't work as well as the Radar equipped cars and I won't know until 2-3 months down the line which will both affect the value of the car and part of the reason I bought it.
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    They said they're going to stop using the radar in the existing cars too.
    - nemothekid 5y ago
      Musk has been saying they were going to transition to all-vision for a couple years now. It's not a question of if they are going to stop, it's first, is the vision system ready or on par with radar? If it's not, then current vehicles (and, also _new_ S/X models) still get the current experience. I personally don't care if its vision, radar, or if Elon himself remote controls the car from his house. I'm well aware of the current limitations of the software and I'd like to purchase the car knowing what I know. Having the radar come out is like buying the FSD promise; it might work next month, or it might be next year; and seeing how Autopilot was one of the features I was looking forward to, that sucks. At the same time, there's little recourse if you want to buy an Electric car other than moving up to an S/X (which are currently 3-6 months out and 40-50k more).
dukeofdoom 5y ago
Seems like Teslas current advantage is the extensive fast charge network. Everything else seems to be quickly on the way to be matched or surpassed by traditional car manufacturers. I don't see a basis for their continued stock price rise. When competition will eat their lunch. Honestly, if this was a true free market. China will dominate car manufacturing.
- qshaman 5y ago
  Elon have a cult like following, he can manipulates stock prices and crypto prices with a single tweet, also Tesla was first, and its brand recognition is amazing. Most people think of Tesla when they hear "electric car". I also doubt that Chinese electric cars will ever make it to the US. You cant get Vivo, xiaomi, huawei phones in the US anymore in traditional ways.
towergratis 5y ago
Did I read that correctly? Are they removing the feature from existing cars as well? And that's because Tesla decided to ditch radar due to chip shortages? We moved from "You don't own your computer" to "You don't own your car" really fast
- paxys 5y ago
  No you did not read that correctly. There is no indication whether Tesla is going to remove the feature from existing cars or not.
Lendal 5y ago
The irritating thing is it's all so unnecessary. My Tesla is a great car. But I paid an extra $10,000 for a feature that was promised but still hasn't been fully delivered, FSD. It feels like I paid extra for my awesome car to be sabotaged. What was promised by FSD was never going to be possible, and yet they are doubling down. They need to stop this idiocy. The vision system is horrible. The car stops at green lights. It swerves around phantoms at speed. It fails to brake when it ought to, and brakes way too late after it should have decelerated. When it encounters a car parked on the side of the road it stops instead of going around. Okay I'm glad we get over-the-air updates, but it just makes me sad that the updates improve things so slowly in a two steps forward one step back sort of way. I thought it would be further along by now.
- paxys 5y ago
  FYI Tesla has already told regulators that it won't be able to deliver FSD by the end of 2021, which it had earlier committed to. If you are still holding your breath on it, it's probably time to give it up.
  - dhbanes 5y ago
    How is it a loan? Can he recover the principle?
    - pmastela 5y ago
      It’s a “loan” insofar the interest is paid out in over-the-air FSD updates and the principle is irrecoverable.
    - spsful 5y ago
      It's a cash payment to Tesla for a feature that doesn't yet exist, so technically they owe you something until they deliver FSD. If you bought this, you would have been owed $10k but in the form of a self-driving feature. So until they deliver that they technically owe you money, but they owe it to you in the form of FSD.
- sadfasf122 5y ago
gauravphoenix 5y ago
>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to suddenly move the steering wheel to left while there is oncoming traffic. I immediately took control of the navigation but the car did wobble a bit. My heart kept racing with an adrenaline rush for the next half an hour. I haven't engaged autopilot since then. I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  I just don't use Autopilot. It feels so unsafe, maybe that is showing my age but I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster without tracks when I engage it. It's totally fine, I didn't buy the car for Autopilot, I just wanted a nice efficient car, which it is.
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  I'm confused. If a new left-only turn lane was added, wouldn't it have steered you into that new lane? How did it steer you into oncoming traffic?
  - gauravphoenix 5y ago
    Nope. I was going straight and had no intention of turning at all anywhere. Just because a lane is getting added doesn't mean I want to move to that lane.
    - LeoPanthera 5y ago
      I think what he's asking is, a new left-turn lane would have been to your left. So, in order to steer into oncoming traffic it would have had to change lanes at least twice, first into the new left lane, and then left again into traffic. There's something missing from your description.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Fun tracking this https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/27306550 https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/27306550
everetm 5y ago
I'm amazed at how toxic the comments are and how many are mentioning people are going to be killed. Have you seen how most Americans drive? Makes sense that they did this with the chip shortages. I don't doubt that they can rely entirely on cameras and be way safer than most drivers on the road. Looking forward to FSD release in 2030.
- philjohn 5y ago
  What about conditions such as fog?
  - theopsguy 5y ago
    Human drive in fog just fine with pure vision, why can’t AI do the same? Keep in mind that vision is needed in all cases for lane keeping at the very minimum. So if vision is not able to see in fog, it won’t be able to self drive even radar is working.
    - asah 5y ago
      False. Here's dozens of cases of pile-ups caused by fog: https://www.google.com/search?q=fog+highway+pile+up https://www.google.com/search?q=fog+highway+pile+up
      - theopsguy 5y ago
        Note that self driving doesn’t mean 0 accidents, it just need to be better than avg human. People get into accidents when there is no fog as well.
    - xvector 5y ago
      > Human drive in fog just fine with pure vision, why can’t AI do the same? Humans also use real intelligence and higher-order thought when driving. Humans also have stereo vision. Unless you’re telling me that Tesla has invented AGI, the comparison is absurd. In the meantime, Tesla can’t even get my auto wipers right.
graiz 5y ago
Tesla is a great at many things but managing customer/media expectations isn't among them. I'm sure Elon has the data and will tweet why vision is better, he may even back it up with really good data, but it's reactionary media management rather than preventative. How hard would it have been to write a press release explaining why they are removing radar, what it means to safety, and how it impacts the future of self-driving?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- shepherdjerred 5y ago
  Tesla doesn't have a PR department. It was dissolved last year. https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/15/teslas-decision-to-scrap-its-pr-department-could-create-a-pr-nightmare/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/15/teslas-decision-to-scrap-i...
  - asdff 5y ago
    No point in bothering with PR when elon still has access to his twitter to post ridiculous things
- computerex 5y ago
  They are in a pickle due to the chip shortage. There are no good technical reasons for removing the radar sensors. What would they say?
  - nickik 5y ago
    Nonsense. They have been talking about removing radar for a while, that was always part of the plan.
    - computerex 5y ago
      There is a difference between not relying on radar and having it there to provide redundancy and removing the thing altogether and presenting a single point of failure that can cost someone their life. MobilEye for example can run on vision and radar independently and they have been for a while. The reason they don't remove one or the other sensors is to provide redundancy. When your tech can kill people, it's a good idea to provide redundancy.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
Considering almost every programm out there has a bug or chronically experiences bugs, it is crazy to trust a programm with driving you car. Fsd without dedicated lanes and pedestrians will never match an able and alert human. Even if it's designed by a far in the future AI, the AI will be built by humans and inherit the flaws. Why do people even see self driving as the ultimate transport solution? It does not scale, even if vehicles are shared.
andrewmcwatters 5y ago
The full self-driving capabilities at $10,000 seem to be a poor value when you compare it to the fact that you could just... pay a person to drive you around. I mean, hopefully no one is financing or leasing these cars when you're purchasing FSD, right? It only makes sense to me if you buy the car in cash. You could literally just set aside the $10,000 to occasionally have a professional driver chauffeur you, provide drinks in the car, etc.
- bradlys 5y ago
  Paying cash for a car isn’t really that good. You should almost always finance it since rates tend to be well below what you can get in the market.
JoshGlazebrook 5y ago
As someone who has had the auto emergency braking (radar based) engage while the car was already on autopilot, I find this scary. Had it not been on, autopilot would have not slowed down fast enough and hit the vehicle in front of me. Also the fact that without radar they are limiting vehicles to 75mph means it's useless in Texas and many other states.
new_realist 5y ago
For history buffs: Tesla began to rely heavily on radar for AP after their vision only system decapitated people. But now they've run out of parts, so back to vision-only it is.
jedberg 5y ago
For years I've been saying my next car will be a Tesla, because I wanted an electric car with autopilot. A few weeks ago I got a Comma2, which runs OpenPilot, and installed it on my Honda Odyssey minivan. I've driven a Model X with autopilot, and I have to say, my minivan is just as good, if not in some cases better, than the Tesla. I'm now much less excited about getting a Tesla. Knowing that I can upgrade basically any recent car to have autopilot, now I'm just waiting for an electric minivan that I can install OpenPilot on. And if I end up needing a sedan again, I'll most likely look first for an electric sedan from another automaker that I can add Openpilot to. Edit: This is strange. This is my third comment that I mentioned OpenPilot, and in all three cases, my comment got a downvote within 30 seconds of posting it. I wonder, is there some bot that goes around downvoting posts/comments about OpenPilot? I don't think what I said was in any way controversial?
- kevinskii 5y ago
  Perhaps your other comments were also made in the context of Tesla discussions, which tend to be fairly polarizing.
  - jedberg 5y ago
    One was, the other was in the thread of "what's something you bought that turned out to be super useful".
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
powerbroker 5y ago
Tesla has had voice commands 'working' for a few years. A simple rule-of-thumb to think the FSD (or whatever they call it in 2030) is working, is to ask yourself, how many of the last 100 voice commands has it understood. If the number is different than 100, then don't trust the FSD.
rsj_hn 5y ago
I really feel like the whole AI/autopilot is Tesla's achilles heel. It's a great electric car, and they have good product people and should do well in the marketplace. But overselling self-driving risks tarnishing the entire brand and exposing them to claims they misled investors and committed fraud by selling a feature they couldn't deliver. The whole thing seems like a huge distraction from the real story which is electric vehicles.

186 points by camjohnson26 5y ago

This is part of Tesla's plan to transition to a vision-only system: - FUD-free Tesla Daily coverage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zsmZx4kfA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3zsmZx4kfA - Details from Tesla: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision

ffggvv 5y ago
their decision to sell their auto kill software at all kills people. but they don’t care. as long as elon gets his pumps
- xvector 5y ago
  This is correct. Tesla’s MO is implementing the “move fast and break things” methodology on real human beings in safety-critical situations. I don’t understand how anyone can support this. It should be illegal. I own a Model 3 and it will be my last Tesla.
  - ffggvv 5y ago
    its a shame because its a solid car if they didnt focus on all the lies, bad business practices, killing people etc and instead just focused on making it cheaper and better.
RandomWorker 5y ago
Right on, this might be a great move. Though radar is a powerful technology. Two camera's with the right depth sensing software behind it could do a lot. What about light source though? Camera's with great light sources provide a super powerful technology, but what are you going to do in the dark/rain? Then again, camera's are cheaper and can do better in some conditions with (semi)reflective surfaces. It's all up in the air, but making sense of the world in a moving object with constantly changing scenery and multiple other vehicles/cyclists/foot traffic moving around. I think the argument they make is quite interesting, with vision (our eyes) we do anything and everything in the car. Therefore, camera's are like eyes so they should give comparable performance. The fact is that the dynamic range of the eye is insane and no commercial camera can currently even come close to it. Once that technology is there, (which is physically impossible with the current sensor tech) I'd agree with them.

chronic83027 5y ago

- Tesla is lacking radar modules due to chip shortage - As a result, Tesla can’t make vehicles - Tesla (as always) is cutting it close to making a profit - Therefore, sell cars without radar - This “profit squeeze” is corroborated by this week’s (May 27) increase in vehicle prices by $500-$2,000, the reintroduction of enhanced autopilot for $4,000 and Elon trying to pump n dump crypto again with his “crypto eco-oversight committee”

chovybizzass 5y ago
I hate this guy now. I am hoping Bezos LEO starlink competitor will be better and cheaper. Amazon usually pretty good at middle-class price points. Also I sold all my TSLA for SPCE today
bumby 5y ago
>Tesla is lacking radar modules due to the chip shortage Is there evidence this is the motivation for the decision? I’m not skeptical, just couldn’t find it in the article. When I first read it, I assumed it a was a technology choice as there seems to be competing camps between cameras and radar. Musk has previously stated he was in the camera camp because they provide more information and I figured this was just a another step in solidifying that position.
- valine 5y ago
  The radar chip shortage is pure speculation, no official word from Tesla on it. Seems to fit though as we know some M3 and MY were waiting on a part to ship. It's likely that Tesla was close to removing radar anyway and decided to accelerate the switch to pure vision.
- sjcoles 5y ago
  Honda also announced they are removing radar and using video only adaptive cruise.
bob33212 5y ago
If in July the systems are safe and Beta FSD has improvements are you going to admit you were wrong about these things?

tapoxi 5y ago

Why are they removing these features from a car with a promise of patching them back in later? Shouldn’t that be ready to go before committing to a hardware change?

akerl_ 5y ago
Because the actual change is driven by supply chain issues w/ radar gear, and the vision-is-better party line is just to make it sell better.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  Can someone tell me if SpaceX's tail-landing rockets are vision-only systems? Street vehicle navigation seems at least as difficult as nailing a rocket landing.
  - agogdog 5y ago
    I'd argue that navigating streets is significantly harder than landing a rocket. Space X can land a rocket for example, but fully autonomous cars are still a ways off.
  - mdorazio 5y ago
    They are not. Cameras would not be all that useful. See [1] for an estimated system diagram - the main sensor stacks are based on AHRS and GPS. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/64ew8x/falcon_9_a_systems_overview/ https://www.reddit.com/r/spacex/comments/64ew8x/falcon_9_a_s...
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    It's a bit of an apples-and-oranges comparison regarding "as hard as," but the answer to your question is that the rocket uses a combination of GPS for gross aiming followed by radar for fine-grained approach. Vision might be possible but presents challenges radar may not (including that as the rocket gets close to the pad, the back-blast form the exhaust obscures the pad).
  - 5y ago

TameAntelope 5y ago

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

dragontamer 5y ago
There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plant-due-global-chip-shortage https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan...), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Tesla has been pushing camera-only autonomous driving (ditching LIDAR) since well before the chip shortage. I would assume this is part of the same drive.
  - _Microft 5y ago
    Tesla did not ditch LIDAR, they never actually used it (not in production cars at least?).
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    Tesla is ditching radar, not lidar.
  - chronic83027 5y ago
    As of May 2021, Tesla publicly announced they’re using lidar to develop FSD. https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-lidar-elon-musk-autonomous-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-li...

c0nsumer 5y ago

With a feature being pulled from already-sold vehicles, I wonder if this'll run into some Lemon Law issues. Because the vehicle no longer does what was sold, which is specifically protected by law in many states.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
This only applies to new vehicles that ship without the radar module. Tesla is switching to vision-only but the vision-only system hasn't been tested by the NHTSA. Nothing has changed for vehicles that have already shipped with radar modules.
- soheil 5y ago
  Not true. If you made a reservation and signed the paperwork to take delivery in 4-11 weeks (more like 11 weeks as of now) the radar will be stripped from the car you're getting, it won't be the car you paid for. I think this is a good move by Tesla regardless and makes them focus on improving vision. No lidar and now no radar.
mbreese 5y ago
> pulled from already-sold vehicles The radar was pulled from already ordered vehicles. The sale isn't finalized until pickup. I assume they would allow the order to be canceled at least.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  The feature is intended to be removed from all vehicles, though, the radar will be turned off according to Tesla.
nickik 5y ago
They are actually improving features. This actually FIXES a major issue with the current system. Radar false positives have been the single most complained about problem with Autopilot.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

TL;DR: Tesla is removing radar from vehicles to transition to a vision-only system. They will ship vision-only cars before NHTSA has tested them, so the NHTSA can't certify untested vehicles. > Newer Tesla Model 3 and Model Y vehicles will no longer be labeled as having some advanced safety features after the automaker said it was removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system

akerl_ 5y ago
Notably, even Tesla says that the vision-only cars will ship with reduced safety features which they’ll backfill later via software update. Given how long they’ve been promising that the FSD beta rollout is right around the corner, I’m not holding my breath.
- takeda 5y ago
  I believe those are two different things. Tesla says that software update will be provided in the future that will enable these features using vision cameras (previously radar was used). NHTSA certified the radar solution and it didn't certified whether the vision one is as safe.
  - akerl_ 5y ago
    They’re the same thing: NHTSA certified the safety features provided by the radar. The vision system isn’t certified because it wasn’t reviewed, and it hasn’t been reviewed in part because Tesla hasn’t finished developing feature parity. So until they finish developing and releasing the features, they aren’t available. Once that’s happened, NHTSA can review them for certification.

paxys 5y ago

I'm having difficulty understanding the timeline here. - Tesla is going to remove radar from new Model 3 & Y cars starting later this month. - Tesla is going to add back the removed features via software updates at some point in the future. - All Model 3 & Y cars sold since April 27 will not have these NHTSA check marks. Why is there a one month overlap? What's different about the cars shipped on April 27?

andrewmunsell 5y ago
It's cars produced since April 27-- Tesla has been holding a decent number of cars for delivery (see: FB & Reddit complaints from people about their delivery dates being pushed back), so it's possible that the cars produced after the 27th were just not delivered before the software was ready for the bare minimum vision-only Autopilot.

justaguy88 5y ago

So if we were going to purchase one soon, should we instead wait for this to be fixed?

goshx 5y ago
There is nothing to be fixed. They are replacing radar with vision.
- t0mas88 5y ago
  They're disabling some functions due to the switch and promising to bring them back with an update. So that's really a fix for something that isn't working anymore. If those features are important to you, it makes sense to wait for the update to be released before you buy. Don't trust a Tesla promise, wait for the feature to be there in reality. It took them a very long time to make the promised automatic wipers work last time...
  - goshx 5y ago
    "Autosteer will be limited to a maximum speed of 75 mph and a longer minimum following distance. Smart Summon (if equipped) and Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery." Are these really important features that you would postpone a purchase of the car? With the exception of the "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance", no other car in the industry has these features anyways.
    - JoshGlazebrook 5y ago
      Many states have highway speed limits that _begin_ at 75mph. So yes this would mean autopilot (a huge selling point of these vehicles) is useless for highway driving, which is what autopilot in its current incarnation is meant for.
      - goshx 5y ago
        You can still drive the car and this is temporary. To hold on to the purchase because of this is idiotic. And I am going to call out on your BS. No state begins at 75. Max speed in most states is 70 and 4 or 5 have a max speed of 80, which is the max across the country. So go lie somewhere else. https://www.iihs.org/topics/speed/speed-limit-laws https://www.iihs.org/topics/speed/speed-limit-laws

tpmx 5y ago

I'm going to assume that the vision-only system typically works okayish in Sunny California and in more climate-wise challenging regions, not.

aaomidi 5y ago
It also doesn't see in front of the car ahead of it. Which the radar can, and for me specifically has prevented accidents on rush hour highway traffic.
mnouquet 5y ago
If it doesn't work on snow covered roads, at night, in the middle of a snow storm, it's junk.

bosswipe 5y ago

The tell that their vision tech is not as good as radar is that their high end models, S and X, are keeping the radar.

xvector 5y ago
And also the fact that existing vehicles are keeping radar. And also the fact that Tesla says certain features like Autopilot may not work for some time until vision-based proximity is “ready.” That’s the biggest tell. If vision-based proximity was working, they’d roll it out to everyone and it would not be restricted off the bat. Instead it is clear that they are using new drivers as an A/B test or canary, because they are not yet confident their system is safe.

aaomidi 5y ago

This decision from Tesla is going to get people killed. Tesla owners, we should sue Tesla for this. They're going to take away features that influenced our purchasing decision with an OTA update. This should not be allowed.

nemothekid 5y ago
AFAIK, If you have a Tesla already, it will still use Radar. Model S/X also keep Radar. It's being removed from Model 3/Y. I placed an order in early April and I'm kind of miffed that (1) my delivery was delayed (my original order was supposed to be 4-8 weeks, I'm currently slated for ~10 weeks) (2) there seems to be supply chain issues, but the company denies it (3) after not shipping in cars for 2 months, they announce that radar is deprecated, and then suddenly people start taking deliveries. My biggest fear is that Autopilot won't work as well as the Radar equipped cars and I won't know until 2-3 months down the line which will both affect the value of the car and part of the reason I bought it.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  They said they're going to stop using the radar in the existing cars too.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    Musk has been saying they were going to transition to all-vision for a couple years now. It's not a question of if they are going to stop, it's first, is the vision system ready or on par with radar? If it's not, then current vehicles (and, also _new_ S/X models) still get the current experience. I personally don't care if its vision, radar, or if Elon himself remote controls the car from his house. I'm well aware of the current limitations of the software and I'd like to purchase the car knowing what I know. Having the radar come out is like buying the FSD promise; it might work next month, or it might be next year; and seeing how Autopilot was one of the features I was looking forward to, that sucks. At the same time, there's little recourse if you want to buy an Electric car other than moving up to an S/X (which are currently 3-6 months out and 40-50k more).

dukeofdoom 5y ago

Seems like Teslas current advantage is the extensive fast charge network. Everything else seems to be quickly on the way to be matched or surpassed by traditional car manufacturers. I don't see a basis for their continued stock price rise. When competition will eat their lunch. Honestly, if this was a true free market. China will dominate car manufacturing.

qshaman 5y ago
Elon have a cult like following, he can manipulates stock prices and crypto prices with a single tweet, also Tesla was first, and its brand recognition is amazing. Most people think of Tesla when they hear "electric car". I also doubt that Chinese electric cars will ever make it to the US. You cant get Vivo, xiaomi, huawei phones in the US anymore in traditional ways.

towergratis 5y ago

Did I read that correctly? Are they removing the feature from existing cars as well? And that's because Tesla decided to ditch radar due to chip shortages? We moved from "You don't own your computer" to "You don't own your car" really fast

paxys 5y ago
No you did not read that correctly. There is no indication whether Tesla is going to remove the feature from existing cars or not.

Lendal 5y ago

The irritating thing is it's all so unnecessary. My Tesla is a great car. But I paid an extra $10,000 for a feature that was promised but still hasn't been fully delivered, FSD. It feels like I paid extra for my awesome car to be sabotaged. What was promised by FSD was never going to be possible, and yet they are doubling down. They need to stop this idiocy. The vision system is horrible. The car stops at green lights. It swerves around phantoms at speed. It fails to brake when it ought to, and brakes way too late after it should have decelerated. When it encounters a car parked on the side of the road it stops instead of going around. Okay I'm glad we get over-the-air updates, but it just makes me sad that the updates improve things so slowly in a two steps forward one step back sort of way. I thought it would be further along by now.

paxys 5y ago
FYI Tesla has already told regulators that it won't be able to deliver FSD by the end of 2021, which it had earlier committed to. If you are still holding your breath on it, it's probably time to give it up.
- dhbanes 5y ago
  How is it a loan? Can he recover the principle?
  - pmastela 5y ago
    It’s a “loan” insofar the interest is paid out in over-the-air FSD updates and the principle is irrecoverable.
  - spsful 5y ago
    It's a cash payment to Tesla for a feature that doesn't yet exist, so technically they owe you something until they deliver FSD. If you bought this, you would have been owed $10k but in the form of a self-driving feature. So until they deliver that they technically owe you money, but they owe it to you in the form of FSD.
sadfasf122 5y ago

gauravphoenix 5y ago

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to suddenly move the steering wheel to left while there is oncoming traffic. I immediately took control of the navigation but the car did wobble a bit. My heart kept racing with an adrenaline rush for the next half an hour. I haven't engaged autopilot since then. I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
I just don't use Autopilot. It feels so unsafe, maybe that is showing my age but I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster without tracks when I engage it. It's totally fine, I didn't buy the car for Autopilot, I just wanted a nice efficient car, which it is.
dkonofalski 5y ago
I'm confused. If a new left-only turn lane was added, wouldn't it have steered you into that new lane? How did it steer you into oncoming traffic?
- gauravphoenix 5y ago
  Nope. I was going straight and had no intention of turning at all anywhere. Just because a lane is getting added doesn't mean I want to move to that lane.
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    I think what he's asking is, a new left-turn lane would have been to your left. So, in order to steer into oncoming traffic it would have had to change lanes at least twice, first into the new left lane, and then left again into traffic. There's something missing from your description.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Fun tracking this https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/27306550 https://upvotetracker.com/post/hn/27306550

everetm 5y ago

I'm amazed at how toxic the comments are and how many are mentioning people are going to be killed. Have you seen how most Americans drive? Makes sense that they did this with the chip shortages. I don't doubt that they can rely entirely on cameras and be way safer than most drivers on the road. Looking forward to FSD release in 2030.

philjohn 5y ago
What about conditions such as fog?
- theopsguy 5y ago
  Human drive in fog just fine with pure vision, why can’t AI do the same? Keep in mind that vision is needed in all cases for lane keeping at the very minimum. So if vision is not able to see in fog, it won’t be able to self drive even radar is working.
  - asah 5y ago
    False. Here's dozens of cases of pile-ups caused by fog: https://www.google.com/search?q=fog+highway+pile+up https://www.google.com/search?q=fog+highway+pile+up
    - theopsguy 5y ago
      Note that self driving doesn’t mean 0 accidents, it just need to be better than avg human. People get into accidents when there is no fog as well.
  - xvector 5y ago
    > Human drive in fog just fine with pure vision, why can’t AI do the same? Humans also use real intelligence and higher-order thought when driving. Humans also have stereo vision. Unless you’re telling me that Tesla has invented AGI, the comparison is absurd. In the meantime, Tesla can’t even get my auto wipers right.

graiz 5y ago

Tesla is a great at many things but managing customer/media expectations isn't among them. I'm sure Elon has the data and will tweet why vision is better, he may even back it up with really good data, but it's reactionary media management rather than preventative. How hard would it have been to write a press release explaining why they are removing radar, what it means to safety, and how it impacts the future of self-driving?

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shepherdjerred 5y ago
Tesla doesn't have a PR department. It was dissolved last year. https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/15/teslas-decision-to-scrap-its-pr-department-could-create-a-pr-nightmare/ https://techcrunch.com/2020/10/15/teslas-decision-to-scrap-i...
- asdff 5y ago
  No point in bothering with PR when elon still has access to his twitter to post ridiculous things
computerex 5y ago
They are in a pickle due to the chip shortage. There are no good technical reasons for removing the radar sensors. What would they say?
- nickik 5y ago
  Nonsense. They have been talking about removing radar for a while, that was always part of the plan.
  - computerex 5y ago
    There is a difference between not relying on radar and having it there to provide redundancy and removing the thing altogether and presenting a single point of failure that can cost someone their life. MobilEye for example can run on vision and radar independently and they have been for a while. The reason they don't remove one or the other sensors is to provide redundancy. When your tech can kill people, it's a good idea to provide redundancy.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

Considering almost every programm out there has a bug or chronically experiences bugs, it is crazy to trust a programm with driving you car. Fsd without dedicated lanes and pedestrians will never match an able and alert human. Even if it's designed by a far in the future AI, the AI will be built by humans and inherit the flaws. Why do people even see self driving as the ultimate transport solution? It does not scale, even if vehicles are shared.

andrewmcwatters 5y ago

The full self-driving capabilities at $10,000 seem to be a poor value when you compare it to the fact that you could just... pay a person to drive you around. I mean, hopefully no one is financing or leasing these cars when you're purchasing FSD, right? It only makes sense to me if you buy the car in cash. You could literally just set aside the $10,000 to occasionally have a professional driver chauffeur you, provide drinks in the car, etc.

bradlys 5y ago
Paying cash for a car isn’t really that good. You should almost always finance it since rates tend to be well below what you can get in the market.

JoshGlazebrook 5y ago

As someone who has had the auto emergency braking (radar based) engage while the car was already on autopilot, I find this scary. Had it not been on, autopilot would have not slowed down fast enough and hit the vehicle in front of me. Also the fact that without radar they are limiting vehicles to 75mph means it's useless in Texas and many other states.

new_realist 5y ago

For history buffs: Tesla began to rely heavily on radar for AP after their vision only system decapitated people. But now they've run out of parts, so back to vision-only it is.

jedberg 5y ago

For years I've been saying my next car will be a Tesla, because I wanted an electric car with autopilot. A few weeks ago I got a Comma2, which runs OpenPilot, and installed it on my Honda Odyssey minivan. I've driven a Model X with autopilot, and I have to say, my minivan is just as good, if not in some cases better, than the Tesla. I'm now much less excited about getting a Tesla. Knowing that I can upgrade basically any recent car to have autopilot, now I'm just waiting for an electric minivan that I can install OpenPilot on. And if I end up needing a sedan again, I'll most likely look first for an electric sedan from another automaker that I can add Openpilot to. Edit: This is strange. This is my third comment that I mentioned OpenPilot, and in all three cases, my comment got a downvote within 30 seconds of posting it. I wonder, is there some bot that goes around downvoting posts/comments about OpenPilot? I don't think what I said was in any way controversial?

kevinskii 5y ago
Perhaps your other comments were also made in the context of Tesla discussions, which tend to be fairly polarizing.
- jedberg 5y ago
  One was, the other was in the thread of "what's something you bought that turned out to be super useful".
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powerbroker 5y ago

Tesla has had voice commands 'working' for a few years. A simple rule-of-thumb to think the FSD (or whatever they call it in 2030) is working, is to ask yourself, how many of the last 100 voice commands has it understood. If the number is different than 100, then don't trust the FSD.

rsj_hn 5y ago

I really feel like the whole AI/autopilot is Tesla's achilles heel. It's a great electric car, and they have good product people and should do well in the marketplace. But overselling self-driving risks tarnishing the entire brand and exposing them to claims they misled investors and committed fraud by selling a feature they couldn't deliver. The whole thing seems like a huge distraction from the real story which is electric vehicles.