17 ms·

What if remote work didn’t mean working from home?

• bluefirebrand 5y ago
  As long as I still have a quiet, private office and don't spend an hour+ per day in traffic and am not expected to give up evenings for "not mandatory but really you should show up to play politics" office happy hours, I don't care where I work. Currently working from home gives me all of that and I haven't been happier with a job ever.
  • geoduck14 5y ago
    Regarding the Happy Hours: In 2019, my team would occasionally need to work long hours or would deliver something awesome. I would reward them with HH and dinner/late meal. It gave me a chance to say "thanks" and for us to bond over the challenge we overcame. I can't do that anymore! I've don't virtual HH, but it isn't the same! I would REALLY like a virtual solution to "bond with your team" and "say thanks in a meaningful way" - cost be damned. As a side note, politics suck. I really like WFH. Working long hours is bad - bonding is good.
    • nomoreplease 5y ago
      > I would reward them with HH and dinner/late meal. Maybe your team would appreciate a $200 gift card instead of HH + dinner/late meal, especially when some people don't drink or prefer healthy meals instead of steakhouses.
      • JohnWhigham 5y ago
        Classic HN missing the point of social interaction and the benefits it provides.
        • cujo 5y ago
          Classic comment missing the point that not everyone needs or wants the social interaction with their work mates.
          • kristjansson 5y ago
            Not everyone of course, and one should be attentive to and accommodating of teammates that feel that way. But surely “let’s knock off at three today and go down the pub, thanks for all the hard work” is a positive for most people?
            • bluefirebrand 5y ago
              "Thanks for all the hard work, let's knock off at three today" Is a positive. "Let's go down to the pub" is still capitalizing on my time. It's still work, just the location has changed. And in the past it has often started at 3 and then kept going and going until way later than if I'd just worked out my day. There is always some idealism around it like "oh if you don't drink you don't have to, just come hang out for a bit" or "you don't have to stay late you can leave early" but in practice people aren't actually that understanding. You try to head home and it's all "you're not having a good time?" Or "you're not a team player" No thanks. I'll pass on all of that from now on.
              • ecpottinger 5y ago
                Exactly my experience.
              • asdff 5y ago
                I can't believe that's real life for some people. I would never drink with someone who has "team player" in their dictionary unironically. That being said, the vast majority of my coworkers, all of them actually, are not robots like that. If they were, I would find a new job fast. If you are in a place like this currently, there are greener pastures my friend. Seek them out. Find people who don't care that you go home to beat traffic instead of hitting up the bar. They exist.
            • 5y ago
        • lotsofpulp 5y ago
          Then do it during work hours, and everyone wins.
          • tannedNerd 5y ago
            Seriously this is the best solution. Instead of after work, do a (virtual or not) HH at 3 on Friday. People don’t have to donate free time and will appreciate it much more.
            • bluefirebrand 5y ago
              I'd still bet that many people would rather just go home early on a Friday. I know I would.
              • valand 5y ago
                But at least HH on time allocated from work does not demand more time from the participants, which is a win.
                • fastasucan 5y ago
                  Until monday comes and everyone has to take up the slack from friday.
          • shard 5y ago
            My previous company had done mid-week outings (definitely not Fridays, people want to go home), where everyone in the team kicks off at 3PM, go see a movie together (the team splitting up based on what movie they wanted to see), then have a nice dinner, with games and prizes at the end at around 7PM. I won a Nintendo Switch one time. It wasn't a bad way to spend an afternoon.
        • CoastalCoder 5y ago
          I think the problem with something like (specifically) Happy Hour is that it's really welcome by some employees, and really hated by others. Imagine being one of the few Mormons, observant Muslims, or recovering alcoholics at a company that "rewards" your team with Happy Hours. Or being someone who's been sexually harassed or assaulted at previous events where coworkers drank too much. I'm not suggesting that it's easy (or even possible) to plan a social event that's guaranteed to be welcomed by every member of a team. But I think events that focus or rely on alcohol as the means of team bonding can be a bad idea depending on the team.
          • lamontcg 5y ago
            Imagine just being someone who is an introvert and feels exhausted after hanging out with people 8 hours a day in an office, who really can't put up with being around other people for 12+ hours a day... I'm much better with a long lunch + socialize and then piss off early from work as a reward.
          • asdff 5y ago
            What you describe, company sponsored fun times, sound a little toxic. But just buddies hanging out is a valuable option for people who need a social outlet. A lot of times, after undergrad and you move to a new city, it becomes exceedingly difficult to meet other people and make friends. You don't have to be friends with your coworkers, but if you are, even shitty jobs can feel a lot more bearable in my experience. In the beforetimes we had a standing happyhour. Some coworkers never showed up and that was fine. Some showed up but only drank water and that was also fine. If you work somewhere that alienates you instead of not caring at all about the highschool clicky bullshit, I'd run for the hills.
        • topkai22 5y ago
          Following up late nights working by expecting people to attend an after-work event is not a benefit to the worker. As others have said, having a big team lunch and then sending them home is a benefit.
        • acituan 5y ago
          ROI for workplace schmoozing is not the same, let alone positive, for all job ladders and levels.
        • bigbillheck 5y ago
          When I was single and in my 20s / early 30s I was a big fan of the happy hour / dinner option, but I'm old now and have a partner and a dog and even when I like my co-workers I'd rather just go home and be with them.
        • hparadiz 5y ago
          Stop assuming people like to drink.
          • smabie 5y ago
            I mean, I think most people do like to drink? Am I wrong? I know I like to drink.
            • valand 5y ago
              Most people around you might. There are people who don't like to drink and there are people who are not allowed to drink due to their believe/health problem. And they are not minority-minority in some places
            • ecpottinger 5y ago
              YES! You are thinking the whole world is the same as your location.
              • hparadiz 5y ago
                It's not even that. American work drinking culture is just not up to par. You're expected to pound coffee all day then go and drink on an empty stomach at 5 before you've eaten dinner. It's just not realistic. Heaven forbid my first meal of the day is lunch and not breakfast. People who have "normal" eating habits just can't understand.
          • novok 5y ago
            As someone who never has drunk, it's fine. You just drink fizzy water, diet coke and free food or whatever and nobody gives a shit. It's a work happy hour, nobody should be getting drunk and nobody notices.
            • heavyset_go 5y ago
              It excludes people who have very good reasons to not be around alcohol, and not people who just don't like it.
        • rewgs 5y ago
          I have 30+ food allergies that developed as an adult (which includes alcohol). Yes, it's ridiculous. I literally cannot eat food that isn't prepared by me from a hilariously small and ever-shrinking list of approved ingredients. I also can't prepare food more than a day in advance due to a histamine intolerance (food grows in histamine count as it sits in the fridge), so roughly 50% of my free time is spent cooking, else I starve. I find these kinds of social outings shitty because I'm invariably left out, asked why I'm left out, and now we're talking about my health issues. Politely declining is never met as well as you'd like it to be (people always insist), so either I forcefully decline so as to avoid option #2 (and people think I'm an asshole); or I take option #2 and talk about it, and am now sad because it sucks and will never stop sucking and I don't really like bringing it up. Then, the following script: everyone gives the minimum pity, commensurate with social niceties. At least two people tell me about their experiences with food intolerances (not even remotely the same thing) and how they got over it (which is not possible with adult-developed food allergies), or they suggest that it's leaky-gut (not scientifically-proven to exist; god knows I've looked into it regardless), or suggest acupuncture, or some other pseudoscience bullshit. Now I get to either choose to tumble head-first into yet another unpaid lecture on the nuances of food allergies, and perhaps inform them as to why what they're suggesting isn't scientifically sound (which is bound to offend, no matter how nicely I say it, because pseudoscience and pop-science is believed with near-religious fervor; the best I'm gonna get is "agree to disagree," so it's not worth it). Or -- my preferred choice nowadays -- I nod and smile and thank them for their novel, sage advice, and tell them I'll be sure to contact the homeopath they suggested first thing tomorrow, as I'm sure that, finally, now, thanks to their intervention, my nightmare is about to come to an end. At this point, an uncomfortable amount of people are listening to me. I mumble something about "and..uh...yeah." Someone stumbles to change the subject, the wheels of conversation spin in the mud for a while before finally getting back to normal -- and everyone subtly ignores me for the rest of the night, lest I bring down the mood or suck the air out of the room again. I've been through this song and dance so many times, I'm completely over it and now just avoid it altogether. Which sucks, because now you're the social pariah that never wants to hang out (because virtually all social gatherings revolve around food). I want nothing more than to enjoy good food and drink with my friends and peers and to be happy and merry and well-fed and buzzed. That used to be my element. It's a touchy subject, because prior to age 30, I was the biggest "foodie" and craft beer freak you've ever met. Finding a new restaurant or trying something I'd never eaten before was literally my favorite activity, period. I was legendary for my weight-to-ability-to-pound-food ratio (I've always been a stick). Now, it's rice and chicken (no spices!) from here to the grave. Washed down with water, and nothing but. Coffee in the morning is fine -- thankfully, I'm not yet allergic to that (no OJ, though). I hate that my best option is "lie and smile" -- saying "I'm not hungry" (when I'm actually starving, made worse by watching everyone else eat and enjoy the camaraderie that only a shared meal can bring, slowly losing blood sugar and trying in vain to combat the moodiness that always accompanies it); or "I need to wake up early" (as an excuse for no drinks; otherwise some asshole pressures you to drink anyway or someone across the table gives you a knowing nod, thinking they've found another fellow AA attendee, which now you'll be talking about later). And because it smells pretty bad socially to ask for that Happy Hour "compensation" be paid in another way ("hey, mind giving me a check for the money you would've spent on my meal and drinks?" will obviously never fly), I'm now just getting literally paid less than everyone else, and getting left out, and being labelled a social pariah no matter which of the above paths I take. It sucks. Life and people are infinitely complex and varied, and those of us reluctantly pushed outside of the mainstream normal are constantly fighting to simply be understood, let alone to not have the only choices thrust upon us be ridiculed.
        • ulfw 5y ago
          It's a job, not a social club
      • codyb 5y ago
        Maybe just offer the option to accomodate people and how they feel at whatever moment you in time you’d like to reward them during.
    • time0ut 5y ago
      The kind of happy hour you are describing is great and one of the things I miss about the office. Chilling with your tight knit team after a long day or a big release is great. I assume the GP is talking about the other sort of happy hour where it is a bigger crowd. I can’t stand those.
      • throwawayboise 5y ago
        I've worked with teams that worked well together and got stuff done, at work. But never wanted to hang out after work with anyone. We all had different lives. Some single, some married, some with kids, some not, etc. At the end of the day everyone just wants to go home to his or her private life.
      • shard 5y ago
        I prefer the larger team outings, as there are usually more people that I enjoy hanging out with than the small 4-7 people team that I work with. Also, larger team outings usually means more things to do because of the larger budget, so it could be a trip to a tourist attraction or activity camp, as opposed to just a meal when it is the smaller team.
    • zelphirkalt 5y ago
      It can be great to sometimes (!) put in a little more time to reach a goal, deliver something the team wanted to deliver for a long time or improve upon some annoyances in status quo. Working extra hours is not to be expected and should be valued. A team probably works better when extra effort is valued. I think it is great, that you are trying to thank your employees / coworkers.
      • lotsofpulp 5y ago
        You can thank employees and coworkers without using their non work time. Do it at lunch.
        • zelphirkalt 5y ago
          True, you got a point, but consider: Saying a few words at lunch time can become a kind of automatism quickly. Perhaps inviting people to social time going out to eat somewhere will leave a more lasting memory. It might not be for everyone. For example people having children and all that. But it does give people a chance to be in a setting outside of work, but with people from the job, which might give a chance to bond through other topics. I think there might not be the perfect reward/thank you for everyone.
          • bluefirebrand 5y ago
            > I think there might not be the perfect reward/thank you for everyone There is actually. It's called big stacks of money. Oddly, companies don't seem to want to reward people with it, the one universal thing that basically everyone could appreciate and is the entire reason anyone works anywhere in the first place. Crazy. It's almost like playing relatively small amounts for a big expensive catered meal saves the company way more money than rewarding people with meaningful sums of money would.
            • mLuby 5y ago
              I value a $50 gift or experience with my team far more than an extra $50 electronically added to my account. Presentation matters.
    • SteveNuts 5y ago
      Take the money you would have spent on this and give it to your team directly.
      • OJFord 5y ago
        Surely that'd be an insultingly small amount to receive as cash? (Maybe that was your point? 'And then realise it doesn't show that much gratitude after all'?)
      • UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        I worked in the hardware lab for a while, and we had the incredulity to ask why they didn't do just this. Turns out, our director told us "it set a bad precedent, and if they did this with us other teams might be encourage to do this as well." As you might have guessed, the hardware lab was not the most social and 1/2 of us didn't drink, so bars were out.
    • dao- 5y ago
      > I can't do that anymore! Good. You'll have to think harder to find ways not to overwork your team in the first place. This attitude towards workers rubs me the wrong way, but your side note saved you in my eyes: > Working long hours is bad Yes! Overworking people and then saying "thanks" by exploiting the fact ("using the chance", as you put it) that you locked them into the office isn't exactly fair. If this is what people mean by happy hour, that's absurd. If they chose to stay for social stuff after a normal day of work, that's of course another thing.
    • reidjs 5y ago
      If you all still live in the same area would it be impossible to organize a little offsite at a bar or restaurant?
    • bluefirebrand 5y ago
      Spending more time at work (yes, going to a happy hour with my coworkers is still "at work") is not a reward for hard work. More money or time off is. I work hard to have my own life, outside of work. I don't work hard to be rewarded with a single expensive meal with booze paid for. I don't even drink anyways.
    • conductr 5y ago
      > It gave me a chance to say "thanks" "Me" is the key word > and for us to bond over the challenge we overcame. That occurred already. It happened through the process of overcoming the challenge. I get the intent, but your people probably just want to rest and get some of their time back. If you must celebrate, do it during hours. I typically did offsite lunch time activities pre-COVID. Now it's more gift driven and individual. I made up award systems like the high school "most likely to ...". If someone renovated their masterbath, give them something that is specific to that as a thanks. Find out if they prefer public or 1:1 gratitude
      • Aeolun 5y ago
        I don’t know. For me, I’m very much looking forward to having dinner and a party with my co-workers again. I don’t want that every week, but the once every 3 months’ish that we had going was pretty nice.
        • conductr 5y ago
          That’s a bit different than when the leader wants to celebrate your long hours by making you work more hours in a social capacity. It’s very much different strokes for different folks. Just like everyone’s personal lives differ so does their appetite for coworker extracurricular activities. But I agree that the every 3 months or so is a fine cadence. But, 1) schedule it at the beginning of the quarter 2) be ready to reschedule it if it coincides with a sprint of long hours. In a perfect world, your team would tell you if they were too burned out for it or not, in a judgement free way. But that doesn’t happen due to fear of judgment or not wanting to rock the boat (say nay when others want yay) or multitude of other reasons. Point is, if you know anyone on the team has significant others, kids, pets, or any life outside work you as a leader shouldn’t ask them to work more in the name of celebration.
    • Taylor_OD 5y ago
      Yup. Ever after 5pm work thing I've been "rewarded" with is still work. Even if it's more fun than working at my desk its still work. I'm not able to do with that time what I want. It's only a reward if it is replacing work. And really it's only a reward if the amount of time that it is replacing is taken out of the sprint planning. At the end of the day if you take a weeknight from me I'm going to be annoyed at best and upset at worst. If you take a work day from me, or part of one, but still expect me to get a full days or work done we will both be in a bad position. I get the intention here. I used to be a people manager and I planned lots of things for after work. But I stopped when I realized how difficult it actually made things for many people and people with kids.
      • Jagerbizzle 5y ago
        I'm trying to get some budget right now to do a in-person social event for my team now that almost everyone is fully vaccinated, and I've been extremely explicit about scheduling it during regular business hours (1pm-3pm for example), to ensure there's no competition between this event and what people actually want to do with their evenings/spare time.
      • fastasucan 5y ago
        This resonates with me as well. And it was hard/impossible to get my last employer to understand it. I dont care if you treat us at a great restaurant, its still work, because if I had a choice I'd rather do something else.
    • watwut 5y ago
      These things are highly individual. Usually, after crunches and pressures, I tended to be angry at disorganization that caused it and also wanted to go home due to pile of stuff that accumulated there. I get that there were people who appreciated these, but not everyone does. It is one more added duty after you have already done a lot.
      • bluefirebrand 5y ago
        Imo, It's people who have no other life or responsibility outside of work that love work organized and paid for events. And they seem incapable of understanding that other people have better things to do than get wasted at a bar with their coworkers on a weeknight, even if the company is paying for it.
        • shard 5y ago
          It depends on the kind of work-organized events. My previous company organized free concerts, from pop to classical to jazz, as well as family events such as Theme Park Day. Aside from company-wide events, there are the large team events (~50 people) that included day hikes, museums, activity camps, and plays. I've enjoyed many of these despite having responsibilities outside of work.
        • patmorgan23 5y ago
          It's a balancing act. It's good for people to have some bounding time with the people they work with in a non work environment. It builds empathy across individuals, teams, and departments which makes resolving conflicts easier. Work is a big part of your life and there's nothing wrong with building strong long lasting relationships with your co-workers. On the flip side, work is a big part of your life and it shouldn't be 100% of you life. It's good to have relationships and commitments outside of work. Finding this balance is hard and different for everyone.
    • halgir 5y ago
      It sounds like you're the manager in this case, and that your intentions are genuine. But are you entirely sure that your team feels the same? I've done similar, but in local restaurants during working hours. It's unfair to implicitly demand your team to donate free time, regardless how much you believe they should enjoy and appreciate it. That aside, virtual options have come pretty close for us. Give everyone a budget to arrange their own food and either organize activities/games that your team will enjoy or just hang out.
    • dcolkitt 5y ago
      What about the occasional company ski trip?
    • agent008t 5y ago
      How about reward them with a cash bonus?
    • bcrosby95 5y ago
      At my workplace, long hours are usually compensated with a bonus and commensurately shorter hours for a period of time.
      • dylan604 5y ago
        yeah, after pulling long hours to meet ridiculous deadlines, the last thing i want is to be required to spend even more time with coworkers instead of just been given time off.
        • late2part 5y ago
          @dylan604 - I'm curious; do you have any company stock?
          • dylan604 5y ago
            nope. i've never worked for a company that gave away stock. i also never wear the swag t-shirts/hoodies that companies give out to employees (or worse sell). why?
            • late2part 5y ago
              Thank you for answering. I ask because I have this theory that there is a correlation between employees who don't mind working more to make stock to go up if they have stock. It's never a simple analysis. I don't mind working more for a deadline if I recognize a tangible increase in revenue or cost savings, as I benefit from the stock. "Gave away" is an interesting term. In our company, stock is 10-40% of our compensation, so it aligns our motives in a way that folks without stock don't have.
              • lazyasciiart 5y ago
                I've always worked for companies where stock is part of the compensation and people still don't want to work long hours.
              • 5y ago
    • jedberg 5y ago
      One manager I had would reward us with a nice lunch out. It meant we didn't have to give up personal time for the reward, and it also limited drinking since we all had to go back to work and it was midday (usually there wasn't any drinking). We all enjoyed it because it meant getting time off work and having a nice meal without giving up family time. You could replicate that by ordering a nice lunch to be delivered to everyone's house and enjoying the meal together remotely.
    • agjm 5y ago
      I am the type of person who appreciates this sort of thing, but it seems like we're in the minority. Growing up, I always loved getting to see people from school / school clubs (e.g. FSAE team, photography, etc) out of the normal context. It really opens up relationships and helps you figure out how to work better as a team. If someone's not there because they don't want anything to do with work after hours, it's hard to treat them fairly -- the people who do show up are going to start viewing them as an outsider, and they might get passed up on promotion for someone that the higher-ups got to know better after office hours. So, objectively, having a happy hour probably tends to punish the people that don't show up, turning it into a mandatory function. I'd never really thought about it that way. That said, I'd still prefer to have them.
      • tjr225 5y ago
        I don’t think we’re in the minority. The HN crowd that is pro WFH has been extremely vocal since even before the pandemic. For what it’s worth I was remote starting a couple years before the pandemic. I can’t wait to go back in at least a couple days a week. I can’t wait to spend time with my coworkers in some capacity. Heck, most of the newly remote have only been doing so for twelve months; wait until your life has been one context for 3 years. It becomes quite brutal.
      • etripe 5y ago
        Liking this kind of thing correlates highly with being extraverted. In the general population, off the top of my head, "you people" (tongue in cheek) represent about 60%. In tech, I'd wager it's skewed heavily in favour of introverts.
    • artur_makly 5y ago
      Custom Team Portraits are also a nice personal thoughtful touch. Either sprinkled around the office and/or at home: https://POPteam.io https://POPteam.io
      • quesera 5y ago
        Hard disagree. There is nothing nice, personal, or thoughtful about a photograph of my coworkers. As a manager, I would expect to be laughed at (with a healthy team, to my face; with a dysfunctional team, behind my back) for such an idea.
        • artur_makly 5y ago
          Last time I checked, Art is personal, emotional, and in our case, sends a clear message of team unity and celebration. 100's of other CEO's and managers who have bought and rebought from us think otherwise, and have had incredibly positive feedback from their teams. But instead of assume the creative tastes of your team, or project yours, why not just simply ask them what they think? YMMV.
          • deleted 5y ago
            [deleted]
          • quesera 5y ago
            I wish you luck in your business, and certainly opinions will vary. My teams are more skeptical of corporate gestures. As the culmination of a week-long offsite in an exotic locale, a candid team photo might be a welcome commemoration. Anything more artificial would be artificial. PS: It's customary to disclose your relationship when plugging your own business, here on HN. I did not realize you had a vested interest in your opinion. Again, good luck with customers of other dispositions than ours!
    • valand 5y ago
      Personal experience which is at the very opposite point of the spectrum from yours. I have had the pleasurable working in a team where bonding is simply working toward a common goal. This was an extremely cohesive team. Our main motivation of working long hour was to push the company to a more beneficial position so that we are also benefited from it. The reward is the good result of the work itself and going home/out knowing that it will benefit us in the future. The experience was almost like playing a co-op game rather than doing typical office work. Happy hours and additional recreational activity were a way to regulate stress rather than a main reward. Of course this is pretty unique, and is a rare thing to happen, especially in big companies where profit and work rather detached.
      • hinkley 5y ago
        Did you have much banter in meetings, or were the organizers all business? Some places make it very hard to bond during work hours.
        • valand 5y ago
          If we're assembled ahead of time, yes, but usually everyone is all business to keep the meetings short and packed. Outside of meetings, yes we had banters. We were nerds, so we conversed about nerdy things, which sometimes are spin-offs of our works. Another it was about food because who don't love food? The workplace was a small open-plan office, 27 desk max in that room. When stressed and needing someone to talk to, I would see if anyone didnot have earphones on and are not working. I guess that was the "busy"/"not busy" signal. > Some places make it very hard to bond during work hours. I guess yeah, moreover if there are physical or procedural separator between people. Also, I realized I don't feel the same atmosphere once we grew into a larger company with varying prople with varying interests. I guess it was a niche kind of thing.
    • hinkley 5y ago
      Parties with my coworkers are often far enough from the office that we all have to drive anyway. That doesn't work for these impromptu things, but it does work for things you know a priori. When you say reward people for working hard on something, you don't mean the same night, do you? That sounds like possibly fun for extroverts and no fun at all for everyone else.
    • Turing_Machine 5y ago
      If you really wanted to give them a treat, you could do the "team bonding" stuff during normal work hours, rather than asking them to give up yet more of their personal time when they've already been overworked. Maybe something like "We're playing hooky today, folks. We're all going to lunch and...we're not coming back to the office afterward."
    • cristicismas 5y ago
      What my team does, is every 1 or 2 months we would all go to work at the office for 1 day (not mandatory of course, but people usually like to come), at the end of which we would all go to a really nice restaurant, and order anything we'd like, paid by our boss. 90% of us are WFH, and I find this works really well and helps with bonding.
    • fastasucan 5y ago
      It sounds like your intentions are good and that you are a great manager, but to be honest, and just to share my personal perspective: the last thing I want after working long hours is to spend even more of my personal time on work, even if its a HH or a expensive meal. I just want to get home/off work and do my own stuff, even if its just eating pizza in my couch. Its probably not like this for everyone, but it is for me. Don't sweat it that you haven't been able to arrange HH, some of your team might be like me.
  • gajjanag 5y ago
    Also, the ability to tune out of useless meetings by muting audio/video is great.
    • devoutsalsa 5y ago
      I wish Zoom had an in-app mute button. I'd love it if I didn't have to mute the entire computer. EDIT: For MacOS, I found this: https://github.com/kyleneideck/BackgroundMusic https://github.com/kyleneideck/BackgroundMusic
      • hwbehrens 5y ago
        A trick I've used before in a pinch is to set your monitor connection (via USB-C/HDMI/DisplayPort) as the Zoom audio output. I never use it as an output, so it's permanently muted in the on-screen menus. Since Zoom makes it fairly easy to customize audio, it can act as a simple mute effect.
        • devoutsalsa 5y ago
          Nice hack, thanks. I'll try it.
      • patmorgan23 5y ago
        You can mute individual applications in windows volume mixer (right click speaker icon in the taskbar, click open volume mixer). I don't know if there's a Mac equivalent but I would be really surprised if there wasn't.
        • zaptheimpaler 5y ago
          Also Windows+G brings up an on screen overlay over any application with the volume mixer and other stuff. Its super useful.
      • david_van_loon 5y ago
        If you're on Windows, the app EarTrumpet provides easy access to per-app audio controls. It should really be included with Windows.
  • tailspin2019 5y ago
    > "not mandatory but really you should show up to play politics" Yep. Enough of that bullshit already. > Currently working from home gives me all of that and I haven't been happier with a job ever. Same here!
  • andrei_says_ 5y ago
    Imagine - taking a 20 min nap in your lunch break - doing a set of push-ups between phone calls - cooking your own meal at lunch - giving a hug to your partner - having your pet in the room with you - not listening to your coworkers noises - 3 x 7 minute yoga sessions - a 20 min power walk while on the phone - zero driving, waiting, zero miles on your car, zero car accidents guaranteed (where I live people spend 10h week commuting on average) … during your workday.
    • bluefirebrand 5y ago
      Not to mention saving on car insurance and gas, getting sick less often, etc..
• hprotagonist 5y ago
  At least in spirit, I feel like this idea was WeWork's business model.
  • cedricd 5y ago
    Exactly. I wonder if this trend will create a meaningful turnaround for them. What a wild world.
    • lotsofpulp 5y ago
      They’re problem was that the land owners can do what they can do pretty easily and cut out the middleman.
  • Taylor_OD 5y ago
    Yup. I ran an office out of a wework for a while and it was a mess. But the folks who used their office as a secondary part time space to do focused work seemed to really enjoy it. They were also the only people who were there during our entire lease.
• spaetzleesser 5y ago
  If you can afford it that’s a great setup. I had this for a while in Munich with my office a five minute bike ride away from home. But it costs a lot so it’s probably not a good choice for a lot of people.
• rado 5y ago
  Yes, please.
• swader999 5y ago
  My shed that I can easily convert to an office is not home but close to home so...
  • topkai22 5y ago
    I did this for years. During the pandemic it became a 1 room schoolhouse. Seems like a viable solution for most people in a SFH or even many townhomes. Only thing I might do differently in the future is get an RV instead of fixed buiding, because then I can use it as an RV, too.
• beforeolives 5y ago
  Works out best if "near home" = "the actual office of my company".
  • throwaway3699 5y ago
    An underlying issues nobody is talking about is real estate prices need to crash then. The quality of life outside a city is just so unbelievably better that I'm not going back to live in a box for hundreds of dollars a month, on a filthy street with no sense of community.
    • riskneutral 5y ago
      Quality of life outside the big city is better? Do you mean in the suburbs? Or in a small town? Or in a village? Or in the wilderness in a cabin?
      • bluefirebrand 5y ago
        Yes, all of those things are better than living in cities. Less noise, less crowding, less violence and crime, more space, more peace, and more friendliness.
        • beforeolives 5y ago
          The friendliness thing is hit and miss, small communities have their own brand of dysfunctions.
        • qshaman 5y ago
          How so? There is way more stuff to do in the city, than in rural Ohio (for example), friendliness is very subjective, if you are "one of them" then yes, they will be nice to you, if you look different, then things change. More space? duh, there is a reason no one wants to live there. Less people == less crime and violence (most of the time). Less noise, yeah, thats true.
          • 5y ago
• ryankrage77 5y ago
  > organizations that allow remote work should not only encourage these employees to find professional spaces near (but distinct from) their homes—they should also directly subsidize these cognitive escapes Well I can think of one location a lot of businesses could allow an employee to work from - the office.
• Bjartr 5y ago
  I actually have this arrangement with my employer. They're paying $500/mo. to rent a small one room office for me a few blocks away from my home because I am easily more than twice as productive when not at home. It's a no-brainer comparing the cost to value.
• blakesterz 5y ago
  "Here’s my proposal: organizations that allow remote work should not only encourage these employees to find professional spaces near (but distinct from) their homes—they should also directly subsidize these cognitive escapes. The cost need not be prohibitive. If we turn back to our author examples, we see that a workspace doesn’t need to be aesthetically pleasing, or well-equipped, or air-conditioned (or even have walls or a roof!)" I'm not sure I agree with the specific proposal put forward here. Those examples probably won't work for most people. BUT I think many of us would agree with the general idea of having a place near home to do some work in some fashion. That's the point of remote work places like WeWork and all the many local places out there, isn't it?
  • bluefirebrand 5y ago
    I could not imagine taking anyone seriously who says I should leave my air conditioned house, comfy office set up exactly how I like it, for "that a workspace doesn’t need to be aesthetically pleasing, or well-equipped, or air-conditioned (or even have walls or a roof!" Unreal. The disconnect here is just shocking.
    • perl4ever 5y ago
      >doesn’t need to be aesthetically pleasing, or well-equipped, or air-conditioned (or even have walls or a roof!" They're clearly talking about my sagging back porch/deck. And I've tried working out there, but the problem is the noise, particularly of the highway about 250 feet thataway. Otherwise, in good weather, sure.
    • ecpottinger 5y ago
      Don't forget the one hour commute each way, every work day. My friend who now works from home, now can get up in the morning, walk the dog, make breakfast and never has to hurry to make sure she catches the train.
  • Oddskar 5y ago
    It's all fun and games until someone leaves a laptop in one of these places out of complacency and it gets stolen.
• thatjoeoverthr 5y ago
  I do this exactly. I rented a small apartment very near (fifty meters) from home, declared it my “studio” and set up my workplace. I can work there with my older daughter (studying at home) and my younger daughter (a toddler) is safely separated and home is not a work place. Literally, I don’t have a “computer” at home; only my iPad and a 25 year old Nintendo. 10/10, strongly recommend.
  • Taylor_OD 5y ago
    Oh wow. That is cool. What area are you in? I've considered this but I would need to move to a much lower COL area.
    • thatjoeoverthr 5y ago
      Poland. I’m paying about 500/mo (USD) for the place. That’s true, I forget how expensive many places are.
      • Taylor_OD 5y ago
        Yup. At that price I'd 100% do the same thing. That's awesome.
• GoodJokes 5y ago
  What if organizations just let employees do what they want and offered them a number of options.
• whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  If work still has to be conducted by videocall they may as well just be at home it's just an inefficient either way and you still lose the ability to have creative ideation discussion that just doesn't work over videocall because of the time delay and forced one at a time speaking. I do think WFH is here to stay but I also see an uncomfortable divide is going to form both in the types of work given to the two sides and the promotion and salary opportunities.
  • hinkley 5y ago
    I've recently become aware of the fact that since I am good at imagining things in my head, I'm much less hamstrung by these virtual meeting than other people. For sure not all of them are as affected, but some are definitely getting the short end there. Hopefully there are some companies out there that thought this pandemic was going to go on as long as it has and have been working on better collaboration tools.
• golergka 5y ago
  In nice weather, I just grab my laptop and go sit on a bench in a nearest park. Best work environment that I've ever had in my entire life.
  • abruzzi 5y ago
    I did this for a bit during the pandemic (because my productivity approaches zero at home) unfortunately, it gets hot in the summer here, so working on a park bench in 110F heat isn't a year round option. I suspect there are few plaes in the US where this could work year round. I ended up just going back to the office--everyone else was gone, at home due to quarantine--and I could be very productive.
  • CodeGlitch 5y ago
    Seriously how do you do this for any length of time? I would have neck and back ache and my hands would cramp up after just 1 day.
• omarish 5y ago
  Yes. I've done this for the past 4 years and it's the best of both worlds. Right now I rent a private office that's ~10 minutes walking from home. Close enough that there's no traffic; far enough that I have a routine. Love it.
• egypturnash 5y ago
  This has been my life for years except without the “renting a place” part. I work in cafes. I work in parks. I work sitting on a bench taking shelter from the rain on my way to somewhere else. I work anywhere I have space to take my Wacom tablet out of my bag and plug it into my laptop, and the desire to spend more time working today. I also work at home in my studio but getting away from the distractions of home is, as this article notes, important. I thought “remote work” already meant this? I’ve been doing it for years, it’s one of the perks of being a freelance artist. Sometimes I’ve toyed with the idea of getting together with some friends and splitting the rent on a shared studio space but really I know I’d only show up a few days a month.
  • steveklabnik 5y ago
    > I thought “remote work” already meant this? Like anything, it's a spectrum. To some people, "travel" means "I drove to the next state over for the afternoon," and to some it means "I am going to this island down by Antarctica that requires getting a special government permit".
    • peterbraden 5y ago
      As long as the work gets done, why does it matter?
      • steveklabnik 5y ago
        I agree!
  • the_greyd 5y ago
    Now that you can sit in inside spaces without a mask, I feel libraries and cafes are a real alternative for me! And this is me typing from a desk at a public library 10 minutes from my apartment. Can't express the amount of relief and joy I feel right now
    • egypturnash 5y ago
• cube00 5y ago
  I already find it distracting enough listening to conversations from other departments that have nothing to do with me, now I'd have to deal with discussions from other companies instead. Open plan needs to die already.
• leecarraher 5y ago
  I think we will soon see a dip in productivity.whenever assessing trends, you should never base conclusions on outlier events and we are basing too much of the wfh success on this past year. A year when you couldn't go out and do things, when people feared for their jobs amid a global crisis and felt a call of duty to keep on working.
  • thrower123 5y ago
    Possible, but there's the counter-balancing fact that people have been amped up and stressed out the whole last year, they didn't have the hardware they needed or the processes in place to help them succeed, they were dealing with their kids being unexpectedly dumped in their laps, etc. This time last year companies were scrambling because they were absolutely unprepared for the amount of VPN bandwidth and other resources that would be necessary to handle abruptly shifting their work-force remote. If anything, I would expect things to go more smoothly, for the companies that don't hastily revert to the asses-in-seats paradigm.
  • dcolkitt 5y ago
    A lot of managers seem to have an unshakeable convention that as soon as workers are no longer cattle-penned into an office that they'll turn into lazy slobs. As if the only thing stopping them from vegging out on the couch, eating ice cream and watching Jerry Springer during the work day is the watchful and benevolent gaze of their adult supervisors from across the open office floor plan. Believe it or not, most professionals are actually still productive outside the panopticon. If anything, substantially more productive because of being in a pleasant environment of their choosing. The only reason I can think why so many refuse to accept this evidence is because a lot of middle managers add little value beyond daycare supervisor. Not all, but a lot.
    • XorNot 5y ago
      There's a disturbing number of managers who's only metric for success seemed to be "well they're in the office on time".
      • 5y ago
• kenneth 5y ago
  I've worked like this since way before Covid. Unfortunately the lockdowns have pushed me more at home than at my usual haunt of cafes and bars (or occasionally the beach). I'm completely incapable of getting anything productive done at home. I work for myself so an office is kind of a waste. A bustling cafe or a bar gives me the best ambiance in which to focus distraction-free.
• mtalantikite 5y ago
  I've been working remote for 13 years now and I really wish I had rented an office outside of my house much earlier than I did. At 23 your threshold for pain and discomfort is I think much higher in many ways, but I definitely burnt myself out by having my workspace also be my living space (small apartment in NYC). Once I started sharing a loft space with some friends to co-work out of things got a lot more enjoyable. My space was a 20 minute walk from my apartment, I could keep a more robust setup there, had space for an electronics/soldering station, kept a library of CS and math books there, etc. And if I needed to just do some work on my laptop and stay at home, that was always an option too. Highly recommend having a situation like that if it's at all possible. I gave up my space in Brooklyn mid-way through the pandemic and definitely am going to go find a new one soon. (If anyone has got a hacker space in north brooklyn let me know!).
  • syshum 5y ago
    Key there is a dedicated space for an office. This may be renting an office space outside your living space, or if you live anywhere that is not a large city chances are you can afford a larger place that would include a dedicated space for an office for much less than renting an office would be. Around here a 1 Bed room apartment + small office rental would be FAR FAR FAR more costly than simply renting a 2 bedroom apartment. 1 year ago, before home prices skyrocketed, it would have been very economical to buy a 2 or 3 bedroom home in order to have a dedicated office space. Granted that only applies if you do not live in one of the top 50 Metro's, and if your job is not really fully remote why would you want to stay in a high cost of living location?
    • Mehdi2277 5y ago
      Friends and family are my largest reason for wanting to live in a location. A lot of my friends live in very high cost of living areas. So I will aim to be comfortable living in those same places. It definitely is a lot more expensive than state I grew up in, Oklahoma, but it’s cost I accept. I still like full remote for flexibility it gives especially with a trip for a couple weeks/months but long term location I’d probably end up in the Bay Area independent of my work just from friends.
• eruci 5y ago
  This was my life even before the pandemic (Since 2005 I've worked in coffeshops, parks, in my car and in beaches nearby) with the only difference that coffeshops are closed at the moment and I'll have to make do with what is left. Leaving home while working from home is very important.
• _joel 5y ago
  I wouldn't have a problem, but I do feel there's an undercurrent of these kind of "You can't be productive actually at home" articles I'm reading. I wonder if WeWork are pushing these :)
  • beforeolives 5y ago
    Of course companies will push whatever agenda suits them and websites will push anything that gets clicks. But there are people who genuinely feel this way (I'm one of them).
• alexjplant 5y ago
  I live and work in a 700 square foot apartment (of which too large of a percentage is closet space for my liking). I just discovered that there are two coworking spaces within walking distance; I'm going to see if I can get a reasonable daily rate and shell out a hundred or two a month to go in once or twice a week.
• jenkstom 5y ago
  This doesn't help those who have to work from home because of a disability. Finding excuses to discriminate against the disabled is toxic behavior. So I'm going to go ahead and label this article as "toxic" since it recommends a "solution" without mentioning that it's completely inappropriate for some people.
  • CodeGlitch 5y ago
    You're right in that it ignores the disabled, but is that toxic? Surely it would have to be outright hostile to the disabled for it to be "toxic". What I think has happened is that the author just hasn't considered the less abled, which is a common mistake. Far from toxic though.
  • YetAnotherNick 5y ago
    By the same logic almost all of the companies pre covid are toxic?
  • loco5niner 5y ago
    > Finding excuses to discriminate against the disabled is toxic behavior. I see no attempt to do that in the article. You are not helping your cause.
• neonate 5y ago
  https://archive.is/CYbFy https://archive.is/CYbFy
• k__ 5y ago
  It never did. I work remote for 7 years now and the first year I worked mostly from libraries and coffeeshops.
• avelis 5y ago
  This only works when quiet time to think and work is respected. Cowork spaces are usually terrible at it.
  • mjrbrennan 5y ago
    Yeah I think about going to coworking spaces now and then (I am full remote since October 2019) and then I remember that all of them play music over the speakers and how awful that is for concentration, not to mention the loud conversations and phone calls.
• 0xbadcafebee 5y ago
  Working remote and not from home: - Do you need to take a call, and don't want to be that person with lots of background noise? Good luck, other than renting out a private office or meeting room. (Seriously, if you're at a busy Starbucks at 9AM during your stand-up call, just type it in the chat...) - Cell signal is finally getting fast and available enough that remote work can be done on top of a mountain, but you do need to be within reach of a decent cell tower. - Is the sun out? Good luck reading your screen. Is it going to rain? Better go find a place indoors. Offices are convenient for work. You really can get a lot done quickly by grabbing 3 people and working out something in person. You can find quiet space, you can have good lighting and a good desk and decent climate control, you can have coffee and a bathroom and security. Flexibility is definitely great to have, but let's not kid ourselves. Offices are there because they're useful.
  • ecpottinger 5y ago
    Starbucks in a Chapters store is not noisy, plus you get your mags on time. Unless you are really out in the country, the cell phone work fine. I am going to Starlink because my property is over 100 KM from the nearest city but while searching for the land I was surprised how far cell phone are now covered. Buy a laptop with a good screen, or learn to rotate it so the sun does not bounce into your eyes. I prefer matte screens for outside. Offices worked when you used the older methods to run things, most times a little thought will show other methods to run things. Offices are here because they were useful, and management hates making changes.
  • aledalgrande 5y ago
    I deployed from a taxi in SF so your mileage might vary ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
• sytse 5y ago
  Remote work shouldn't mean working from home. Not everyone can do that physically (having space) and mentally. At GitLab we pay for an office if you decide you want to work outside your home. Most people end up working from home but before the pandemic many opted to work a few months from an office to make the transition more gradual.
• neilv 5y ago
  In the early 2000s, when I was sharing a really dumpy student apartment, and had no office, I often spent the day working around town, mostly from parks and cafes. Cafes can be distracting, but they had power for charging old laptop batteries, for the cost of a coffee, and sometimes had free WiFi. Probably most productive were park benches, and sitting under particular trees. I carried a bag with a laptop, a high-power WiFi card, a camera, and (nod to Douglas Adams) a towel. This was the first laptop for working all over town, and I learned tricks for conserving battery power, including keeping disk spun down, and using the LCD passively (non-backlit) at times. https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/ https://www.neilvandyke.org/linux-thinkpad-560e/ The towel had multiple purposes, including: (1) wrapping the laptop in towel inside shoulder bag, for impact padding, which once saved laptop; (2) for sitting upon grass when it's wet or geese/ducks go there; (3) extra cover for laptop when caught in rain. Today would be even better, with better laptop batteries, and with fast Internet from my phone. Now that I have my own place, I usually prefer WFH over WFNH, for immersive work. But there's something to be said for "fresh" city air and sunlight, and speed-walking all over town for hours a day was good exercise.
  • dasil003 5y ago
    An M1 macbook would be perfect for this sitting-under-a-tree lifestyle, the cherry on top would be built-in 5G, but that is a minor gap compared to battery/display brightness.
    • asdff 5y ago
      Are the batteries actually worthy in these? When I got my macbook (intel) Apple claimed 10 hours. Reviews claimed 10 hours. I get 5 hours with the mail app open and an ssh connection to our server. Even took it to the apple store and they said the battery is fine. If a zoom meeting is over an hour I need a charger.
  • pomian 5y ago
    Except the screen technology, which seems worse. The higher end the laptop the worse it seems to work in the sun light. My last good sunlight laptop was a super cheap atom based 11" Acer. I accomplished more on that than any Alienware, XPS, etc - because it worked in any light, and the batteries lasted longer than me.
• piperswe 5y ago
  I've been renting an office right down the street from my house for the past few months and it has made my time remote working so much better. I can highly recommend it to anyone living in an area cheap enough to have affordable offices for rent.
• deviation 5y ago
  Some people fail to recognise the actual problem here. I, among many, live within <5 minutes from my work. Distance is never, and was never the deciding factor in my decision to work from home full time. I'm incredibly lucky my employer sees the benefits of it. The deciding factors were - that I didn't have to leave the room for a personal call so that I didn't disturb anyone. - that I didn't need to have six seperate conversations in the morning before being able to sit down and begin my work. - that I didn't need to sacrifice portions of my lunchtime to grab a coffee with others and look like a team player. - that from home I could now show affection to my partner that I would otherwise likely be ostracised for in an office environment. Do I seem antisocial to you? Probably. But that's how I'm wired and want to live. I have (easily) another 1 1/2 productive hours in my work day now, and that's without children or a long commute. I'm the happiest I've ever been. When I'm feeling exceedingly social and want to connect with others, I will work that specific day from the office.
  • ne0flex 5y ago
    Fully agree. I have about a 15min walk away from my work place. Recently, my company has annoucned its re-entry plan and have decided on a hybrid work environment in order to "foster collaboration and increase productivity." My department was classified as a 'mostly-essential' department which means that we'd be required to be in the office 3 -4 days a week. I immediately emailed management requesting a near 100% transition to WFH, at least for me, and made the argument that my KPIs have more than doubled in 2020 vs. 2019. Working from home has allowed me the flexibility to not get burned out between meetings and as a result I booked more than 2x client meetings. In terms of collaboration, the main person on my team I collaborate with was relocated to San Franscisco, so I need to collaborate with him digitally anyway. Also, despite closing more deals this year, I only received a 3.5% pay increase, and a $1K bonus increase over 2019. My 2019 numbers were abysmal compared to my 2020 numbers, and in 2019 I received a 4.4% salary increase. So more productivity doesn't get me bigger pay raises I guess. Currently waiting to see what stupid bullshit they try to spin in order not to accommodate my request. My boss already told me that he'd support me WFH if it means I'll be able to keep up my current numbers. I'm thinking of telling management that I'm willing to overlook the slap-in-the-face pay increase if they'd accommodate permanent WFH for me / only need to go into the office as necessary.
• dlsa 5y ago
  I get the remote work as "get out of the house" thing. Changing your workspace away from home changes your frame of mind. It can be a discipline thing. You start work at x and finish at y, theres a place to do it, you go there and your return at end of the day. Here is not there, and work happens there and home happens here. That said, the WFH / remote work has shown a lot of people that in-office isn’t so much about productivity but instead more about other matters. But they're now wondering exactly what those other matters are and whether they're important. I think its not actually clear what the fallout will be but a lot of the pushback around Wfh is from lobby groups and office space owners, property developers and everything else around office life. All those vested interests with a complete ecosystem they've set up and are now a lot less stable about. The other aspect is that in person face-to-face is still great. Well... as long as no one sneezes.
  • conductr 5y ago
    I think training and onboarding could be difficult for many companies/teams/bosses to adapt to in a remote environment. I feel like many people stayed put in their jobs in the past year so this hasn’t really been stress tested. When you already know everyone and the way work-is-done going remote is liberating. Trying to navigate a new organization where you know nobody and nothing would be a challenge.
    • dlsa 5y ago
      Much harder to mingle on zoom. Introductions are a little or even more awkward. I think team building will be a challenge.
• Agentlien 5y ago
  Not quite the same, but at my previous job one of the seven people in the same room as I actually worked on a different product for a sister company. We were around a hundred people at that office and I think he was the only one with that arrangement.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• ddelt 5y ago
  I’m hoping all of these pent up “forced” WFH complainers can go back into an office, personally. One of the biggest stressors in my working life is that all of that time spent in an office with coworkers is time NOT spent with my “actual” family that I live and breathe for. All the time wasted commuting, all the energy Ive lost trying to fit into extroverted work cultures only to return to my family drained and unable to appreciate them - Ive regained that by being enabled to work from home. Once people who cleary dont appreciate WFH can go back into their physical office spaces and get back to socializing as a first priority, there will be more opportunities for people lile me who genuinely appreciate WFH to be had.