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It's not like cryptocurrencies achieved any of their goals so far anyway. If it's about facilitating pyramid schemes and creating a worldwide casino we might as

by simias 5y ago

It's not like cryptocurrencies achieved any of their goals so far anyway. If it's about facilitating pyramid schemes and creating a worldwide casino we might as well do it efficiently and without wasting insane amounts of resources. I'm personally very happy for PoS and hope that it'll be successful, I would be a lot less annoyed with cryptocurrency bullshit if it wasn't so wasteful. With proof-of-stakes it basically joins the ranks of essential oils and other MLM scams, I'm fine with that.

leishman 5y ago
Funny how everyone complains it's wasteful yet I see absolutely nobody complaining that they have some sort of electricity shortage because of Bitcoin miners.
- Valgrim 5y ago
  The issue is not scarcity, it's pollution.
  - drdeca 5y ago
    In a sense, we could say “lack of CO2 in the atmosphere” is the scarce resource which is being depleted. ( Maybe kind of like how you can think of something which can burn by absorbing oxygen, as releasing phlogiston (which is just a lack of oxygen, in a certain sense)? )
- Rogach 5y ago
  Well, here's a datapoint for you: I've witnessed firsthand how a big miner farm resulted in full blackout in a small-ish city (~100k population).
- drew-y 5y ago
  Because shortages aren't the issue. The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. That is a lot of CO2 emissions for something that brings questionable value.
  - jollybean 5y ago
    "The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. " It's using the power of Argentina for an MLM/Ponzi scheme that doesn't apparently create any value. If it were a) broadly useful and b) used less power it would be another story. 'Cruise ships' at least allow people to 'cruise'.
    - atweiden 5y ago
      Why is it “not useful” to opt out of the inflationary issuance of major government currencies?
      - trainsplanes 5y ago
        You’re not opting out of anything. At the end of the day, everyone is trading their crypto for dollars or another government currency. Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is. People are buying it hoping to get rich and convincing others to do the same, hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless. Nobody is buying milk and eggs with GameStop stocks or *coins, and if they did, it’d make international news and that singular event would be referenced for 5 years by supporters as an example of how “real” their currency is.
        atweiden 5y ago
        > Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is Cryptocurrencies are indeed traded like meme stocks — their value is 100% based on narrative. The difference is meme stocks can’t be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties, which if you recall from the 2009 Satoshi paper, is the entire point of Bitcoin. (There are other benefits to having a global currency of fixed supply controlled by computer algorithms, e.g. transparent supply metrics.) > hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless What are the holders of Bitcoin supposed to sell it for, exactly? USD is being inflated. The stock market is insane. Housing is insane and comes with tax and maintenance liabilities virtually everywhere. Artwork is physical and illiquid. Government debt is increasingly dubious. It would take governments becoming fiscally responsible and a return to a gold standard for Bitcoin to become less societally relevant. And even then, gold and gold-backed government monies would suffer from transparency issues and not being able to be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties. I’m afraid there’s really just no good news here for people who refuse to invest in Bitcoin on general principle.
- caconym_ 5y ago
  Cruise ships are hideously wasteful, but I don't see anybody complaining that they have some sort of gas shortage because of cruise ships specifically. Gas prices are what they are, and consumers complain in very general terms because they don't have good visibility into the global oil markets. For all I know off the top of my head (where this comment is coming from), cruise ships aren't a significant driver of oil prices. I'd expect the scale of the shipping market to dwarf their effect, and I'd expect production to rise to meet their relatively steady demand, though I could be wrong about either or both. None of that (whatever the answers may be) means they aren't hideously wasteful in absolute and very meaningful terms.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. They are really really wasteful and worse than commercial ships since they pollute the very water people want to visit for its beauty. I wouldn’t really be all that upset to see them banned but there’s no momentum for it. Crypto just happens to be really visible to a lot of people who see no personal benefit for its existence.
    - caconym_ 5y ago
      > I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. For sure, and in other contexts too, but I don’t think the issue of not being able to buy gas because cruise ships exist comes up often (mostly because AFAICT it’s not real). And that’s really my point: it’s perfectly valid to complain about cruise ships being wasteful without being able to point to some incredibly obvious consumer-facing manifestation of that waste, because them being wasteful (they are, obviously) isn’t predicated on any such manifestation. Despite the vast scale of their waste, they’re a drop in the bucket that is the global economy.
- kelnos 5y ago
  I don't know what (if any) effect Bitcoin mining has had on electricity prices, but we do have a GPU shortage because of Bitcoin miners. It's a bit ridiculous when regular stores have lotteries to grant you the privilege of purchasing one of a scarce number of GPUs... at regular retail price.
  - roskelld 5y ago
    Bitcoin doesn't use GPUs for mining. Bitcoin mining is performed with custom ASIC hardware. GPUs cannot compete as they're not built for purpose.
- skohan 5y ago
  The problem is with negative externalities.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  Then you're probably not from Iran because crypto miners have routinely sparked power outages there. https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-iran-power-outages-reveal-the-secret-business-of-chinese-bitcoin-farms https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-ir...
- imtringued 5y ago
  It's going to happen eventually.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
pkdpic_y9k 5y ago
But like, what were cryptocurrency's goals again?
- mhluongo 5y ago
  Originally? Freedom.
- notJim 5y ago
  I can't find it right now, but I saw this infographic the other day showing how the ideology/goals of cryptocurrency have shifted over time. Something along going from a literal currency to replace the dollar to going toward its present definition as some mix of speculative asset and inflation hedge.
  - skohan 5y ago
    the funny thing is that cryptocurrency was fairly useful as a currency in 2014. There were a number of bitcoin ATMs in my city, and a number of businesses where you could spend it. It seems to me that the whole block-size debate proved the failure of the system, since the interests of a few ultimately triumphed over the best interests of the system as a whole.
    - webXL 5y ago
      > since the interests of a few ultimately triumphed over the best interests of the system as a whole Is it in the best interests of "the system" (interesting choice of words... instead of "the many") to require enterprise infrastructure in order to run a node?
      - skohan 5y ago
        Bitcoin used to be a currency, now it's nothing more than a speculative asset. Are "the many" being served by that?
        atweiden 5y ago
brighton36 5y ago
I agree with most everything you just wrote. But, note that the problem with Proof of Stake, in this thinking, is that you won't be able to buy tokens from your local energy company, when the regulators shut your blockchain down.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
Monero is closest to the original cryptocurrency dream: decentralized and private currency. It's most definitely not "bullshit".
- jereees 5y ago
  How is that different from how Shiba Inu token works? Genuinely curious
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    Monero is an actual coin with a blockchain, mineable by normal people, low fees, good transaction speed and always on privacy features that actually work. Shib is just a meme token created to compete with dogecoin.
    - jereees 5y ago
      Fair enough :)
    - SubiculumCode 5y ago
      Monero has some super advanced tech involved. Here is an okay review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O58STfvxZnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O58STfvxZnY
  - X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
    Shiba Inu is just a token on the Etherum chain. There is no privacy and they've done some weird stuff to play the numbers. E.g. they sent half of all SHIB to the creator of Etherum, why? Because that doubles the "circulating supply" and therefore market cap while not increasing the available supply at all. This is a scheme to artificially increase the market cap, which mostly worked because VB burned 95% of all the SHIB he got & it got a lot of press.
    - jereees 5y ago
      Hm. That makes sense, I guess the lack of privacy of the Ethereum chain could be considered as a feature in terms of transparency. Good point about the market cap, do you think Shiba Inu wouldn’t have gotten as popular having VB not giving up control of the token?
Mc_Big_G 5y ago
You might think Bitcoin is not a good store of value, but a lot of people disagree with you. The energy "waste" argument is just virtual signaling at this point. It has been thoroughly debunked.
- 908087 5y ago
  How, exactly, has the energy waste argument been thoroughly debunked? As far as I can tell, the waste has increased exponentially in recent months.. which isn't the kind of factoid I'd put in the "debunked" column.
DickingAround 5y ago
What do you mean? We totally got what we wanted; we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. I'm 100% serious here; it's been working fine for quite a number of years. The fiat conversion is pretty noisy but BTC on average goes up in value in fiat terms at a fast pace. BTC is easy to turn it into stuff. No one has ever censored my transactions or asked for ID. Even if you buy something really expensive or totally illegal. It has literally already worked. It started working the day that guy bought a pizza and it hasn't stopped working.
- danhak 5y ago
  > we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. Such a vanishingly small percentage of cryptocurrency activity is actually used for trade (as opposed to speculation) that it is a novelty and newsworthy when it actually happens. E.g. We all know about that guy who bought a pizza with BTC. And when Tesla decided to allow purchases via BTC (which they have since backtracked) it was a media sensation and market-moving. This is not normal.
  - Baeocystin 5y ago
    Is this really true? I buy stuff with crypto all the time. It's how I learned about crypto in the first place- back ~2015, I ordered legitimate, had-a-prescription medication for my father from overseas using bitcoin, as it was the only way I could get it, as the even-with-insurance price in the states was beyond our means. Wound up doing so for several years, and it was much easier than dealing with the 'normal' ways of payment. A lot of the things I order from overseas in general I pay for in crypto, simply because it's cheaper & easier than doing regular currency conversions. I'm talking about regular things, like specialty foods, or everyday items I can't find in the states. Nothing even close to grey market or sketchy. Just regular financial transactions, using crypto. I'm sure by numbers my <$100-equivalent purchases are small potatoes, but how is that not also true for regular money? There are billions of dollars of capital sloshing around in the markets, but that doesn't make my personal-level spending not useful.
    - 5y ago
reedjosh 5y ago
Currency competition alone is a major milestone. The USD is the _legal_ tender of the US. As in other currencies are not allowed. Because digital currency can't just be taken down, those that don't want to live under an inflationary de-facto tax, now have that option.
intotheabyss 5y ago
I can't believe this blatant denialism still exists on HN despite the fact that Ethereum has a thriving defi ecosystem. I can get a loan peer to peer today with my ETH in a stablecoin and yet you say there's no there there? Right....
- shiftingleft 5y ago
  Is there any advantage over existing systems either for the lender or the debtor?
  - intotheabyss 5y ago
    Huge advantages for both. For example, something that's only possible on a blockchain is a flashloan. This is where you can get a loan for any amount (liquidity provided) as long as you repay the full loan amount in the same block. This primitive alone allows for much higher velocities of money since value can be moved and repayed in a single block (on the order of 10 seconds). All of the advantages of defi boil down to increases in velocity of money. For example you can deposit funds into a contract and receive a token that represents your liquidity position. You can then use this token in other applications. So now you have this composability of money which allows people to create new financial primitives.
    - jayd16 5y ago
      Who is giving out 10 second loans and why would they do that?
    - SmellTheGlove 5y ago
      OK but why and for what purpose?
      - SubiculumCode 5y ago
        THETA->Super Hi Def video streaming https://www.thetatoken.org/ https://www.thetatoken.org/ VET-> Supply Chain Authentication for Businesses https://www.vechain.org/ https://www.vechain.org/ Are two real world examples that are starting to see adoption. Also this articles covers it well: https://101blockchains.com/practical-blockchain-use-cases/ https://101blockchains.com/practical-blockchain-use-cases/
ffggvv 5y ago
protip: dont try engaging cultists. youd have more luck persuading a brick wall.
- skoopie 5y ago
  Agreed. Fiat maximalists are persistent though.
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
we live in an age when governments are tightening controls and are spying relentlessly on their population, as a result there seems to be a significant demand for means to escape these controls at least somehow, i think crytocurrencies answer this need, so it is not just a pyramid scheme/worldwide casino.

by simias 5y ago

leishman 5y ago

Funny how everyone complains it's wasteful yet I see absolutely nobody complaining that they have some sort of electricity shortage because of Bitcoin miners.

Valgrim 5y ago
The issue is not scarcity, it's pollution.
- drdeca 5y ago
  In a sense, we could say “lack of CO2 in the atmosphere” is the scarce resource which is being depleted. ( Maybe kind of like how you can think of something which can burn by absorbing oxygen, as releasing phlogiston (which is just a lack of oxygen, in a certain sense)? )
Rogach 5y ago
Well, here's a datapoint for you: I've witnessed firsthand how a big miner farm resulted in full blackout in a small-ish city (~100k population).
drew-y 5y ago
Because shortages aren't the issue. The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. That is a lot of CO2 emissions for something that brings questionable value.
- jollybean 5y ago
  "The issue is using more power than all of Argentina for one currency. " It's using the power of Argentina for an MLM/Ponzi scheme that doesn't apparently create any value. If it were a) broadly useful and b) used less power it would be another story. 'Cruise ships' at least allow people to 'cruise'.
  - atweiden 5y ago
    Why is it “not useful” to opt out of the inflationary issuance of major government currencies?
    - trainsplanes 5y ago
      You’re not opting out of anything. At the end of the day, everyone is trading their crypto for dollars or another government currency. Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is. People are buying it hoping to get rich and convincing others to do the same, hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless. Nobody is buying milk and eggs with GameStop stocks or *coins, and if they did, it’d make international news and that singular event would be referenced for 5 years by supporters as an example of how “real” their currency is.
      - atweiden 5y ago
        > Crypto is opting out of real money is the same way buying an unstable stock is Cryptocurrencies are indeed traded like meme stocks — their value is 100% based on narrative. The difference is meme stocks can’t be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties, which if you recall from the 2009 Satoshi paper, is the entire point of Bitcoin. (There are other benefits to having a global currency of fixed supply controlled by computer algorithms, e.g. transparent supply metrics.) > hoping they’ll sell it off before the price crashes and it’s completely worthless What are the holders of Bitcoin supposed to sell it for, exactly? USD is being inflated. The stock market is insane. Housing is insane and comes with tax and maintenance liabilities virtually everywhere. Artwork is physical and illiquid. Government debt is increasingly dubious. It would take governments becoming fiscally responsible and a return to a gold standard for Bitcoin to become less societally relevant. And even then, gold and gold-backed government monies would suffer from transparency issues and not being able to be electronically transacted sans trusted third parties. I’m afraid there’s really just no good news here for people who refuse to invest in Bitcoin on general principle.
caconym_ 5y ago
Cruise ships are hideously wasteful, but I don't see anybody complaining that they have some sort of gas shortage because of cruise ships specifically. Gas prices are what they are, and consumers complain in very general terms because they don't have good visibility into the global oil markets. For all I know off the top of my head (where this comment is coming from), cruise ships aren't a significant driver of oil prices. I'd expect the scale of the shipping market to dwarf their effect, and I'd expect production to rise to meet their relatively steady demand, though I could be wrong about either or both. None of that (whatever the answers may be) means they aren't hideously wasteful in absolute and very meaningful terms.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. They are really really wasteful and worse than commercial ships since they pollute the very water people want to visit for its beauty. I wouldn’t really be all that upset to see them banned but there’s no momentum for it. Crypto just happens to be really visible to a lot of people who see no personal benefit for its existence.
  - caconym_ 5y ago
    > I mean on HN you really do see a very anti-cruise ship sentiment whenever the topic comes up. For sure, and in other contexts too, but I don’t think the issue of not being able to buy gas because cruise ships exist comes up often (mostly because AFAICT it’s not real). And that’s really my point: it’s perfectly valid to complain about cruise ships being wasteful without being able to point to some incredibly obvious consumer-facing manifestation of that waste, because them being wasteful (they are, obviously) isn’t predicated on any such manifestation. Despite the vast scale of their waste, they’re a drop in the bucket that is the global economy.
kelnos 5y ago
I don't know what (if any) effect Bitcoin mining has had on electricity prices, but we do have a GPU shortage because of Bitcoin miners. It's a bit ridiculous when regular stores have lotteries to grant you the privilege of purchasing one of a scarce number of GPUs... at regular retail price.
- roskelld 5y ago
  Bitcoin doesn't use GPUs for mining. Bitcoin mining is performed with custom ASIC hardware. GPUs cannot compete as they're not built for purpose.
skohan 5y ago
The problem is with negative externalities.
Barrin92 5y ago
Then you're probably not from Iran because crypto miners have routinely sparked power outages there. https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-iran-power-outages-reveal-the-secret-business-of-chinese-bitcoin-farms https://observers.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210203-in-ir...
imtringued 5y ago
It's going to happen eventually.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

pkdpic_y9k 5y ago

But like, what were cryptocurrency's goals again?

mhluongo 5y ago
Originally? Freedom.
notJim 5y ago
I can't find it right now, but I saw this infographic the other day showing how the ideology/goals of cryptocurrency have shifted over time. Something along going from a literal currency to replace the dollar to going toward its present definition as some mix of speculative asset and inflation hedge.
- skohan 5y ago
  the funny thing is that cryptocurrency was fairly useful as a currency in 2014. There were a number of bitcoin ATMs in my city, and a number of businesses where you could spend it. It seems to me that the whole block-size debate proved the failure of the system, since the interests of a few ultimately triumphed over the best interests of the system as a whole.
  - webXL 5y ago
    > since the interests of a few ultimately triumphed over the best interests of the system as a whole Is it in the best interests of "the system" (interesting choice of words... instead of "the many") to require enterprise infrastructure in order to run a node?
    - skohan 5y ago
      Bitcoin used to be a currency, now it's nothing more than a speculative asset. Are "the many" being served by that?
      - atweiden 5y ago

brighton36 5y ago

I agree with most everything you just wrote. But, note that the problem with Proof of Stake, in this thinking, is that you won't be able to buy tokens from your local energy company, when the regulators shut your blockchain down.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

Monero is closest to the original cryptocurrency dream: decentralized and private currency. It's most definitely not "bullshit".

jereees 5y ago
How is that different from how Shiba Inu token works? Genuinely curious
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  Monero is an actual coin with a blockchain, mineable by normal people, low fees, good transaction speed and always on privacy features that actually work. Shib is just a meme token created to compete with dogecoin.
  - jereees 5y ago
    Fair enough :)
  - SubiculumCode 5y ago
    Monero has some super advanced tech involved. Here is an okay review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O58STfvxZnY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O58STfvxZnY
- X6S1x6Okd1st 5y ago
  Shiba Inu is just a token on the Etherum chain. There is no privacy and they've done some weird stuff to play the numbers. E.g. they sent half of all SHIB to the creator of Etherum, why? Because that doubles the "circulating supply" and therefore market cap while not increasing the available supply at all. This is a scheme to artificially increase the market cap, which mostly worked because VB burned 95% of all the SHIB he got & it got a lot of press.
  - jereees 5y ago
    Hm. That makes sense, I guess the lack of privacy of the Ethereum chain could be considered as a feature in terms of transparency. Good point about the market cap, do you think Shiba Inu wouldn’t have gotten as popular having VB not giving up control of the token?

Mc_Big_G 5y ago

You might think Bitcoin is not a good store of value, but a lot of people disagree with you. The energy "waste" argument is just virtual signaling at this point. It has been thoroughly debunked.

908087 5y ago
How, exactly, has the energy waste argument been thoroughly debunked? As far as I can tell, the waste has increased exponentially in recent months.. which isn't the kind of factoid I'd put in the "debunked" column.

DickingAround 5y ago

What do you mean? We totally got what we wanted; we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. I'm 100% serious here; it's been working fine for quite a number of years. The fiat conversion is pretty noisy but BTC on average goes up in value in fiat terms at a fast pace. BTC is easy to turn it into stuff. No one has ever censored my transactions or asked for ID. Even if you buy something really expensive or totally illegal. It has literally already worked. It started working the day that guy bought a pizza and it hasn't stopped working.

danhak 5y ago
> we have a deflationary currency we trade for goods and services. Such a vanishingly small percentage of cryptocurrency activity is actually used for trade (as opposed to speculation) that it is a novelty and newsworthy when it actually happens. E.g. We all know about that guy who bought a pizza with BTC. And when Tesla decided to allow purchases via BTC (which they have since backtracked) it was a media sensation and market-moving. This is not normal.
- Baeocystin 5y ago
  Is this really true? I buy stuff with crypto all the time. It's how I learned about crypto in the first place- back ~2015, I ordered legitimate, had-a-prescription medication for my father from overseas using bitcoin, as it was the only way I could get it, as the even-with-insurance price in the states was beyond our means. Wound up doing so for several years, and it was much easier than dealing with the 'normal' ways of payment. A lot of the things I order from overseas in general I pay for in crypto, simply because it's cheaper & easier than doing regular currency conversions. I'm talking about regular things, like specialty foods, or everyday items I can't find in the states. Nothing even close to grey market or sketchy. Just regular financial transactions, using crypto. I'm sure by numbers my <$100-equivalent purchases are small potatoes, but how is that not also true for regular money? There are billions of dollars of capital sloshing around in the markets, but that doesn't make my personal-level spending not useful.
  - 5y ago

reedjosh 5y ago

Currency competition alone is a major milestone. The USD is the _legal_ tender of the US. As in other currencies are not allowed. Because digital currency can't just be taken down, those that don't want to live under an inflationary de-facto tax, now have that option.

intotheabyss 5y ago

I can't believe this blatant denialism still exists on HN despite the fact that Ethereum has a thriving defi ecosystem. I can get a loan peer to peer today with my ETH in a stablecoin and yet you say there's no there there? Right....

shiftingleft 5y ago
Is there any advantage over existing systems either for the lender or the debtor?
- intotheabyss 5y ago
  Huge advantages for both. For example, something that's only possible on a blockchain is a flashloan. This is where you can get a loan for any amount (liquidity provided) as long as you repay the full loan amount in the same block. This primitive alone allows for much higher velocities of money since value can be moved and repayed in a single block (on the order of 10 seconds). All of the advantages of defi boil down to increases in velocity of money. For example you can deposit funds into a contract and receive a token that represents your liquidity position. You can then use this token in other applications. So now you have this composability of money which allows people to create new financial primitives.
  - jayd16 5y ago
    Who is giving out 10 second loans and why would they do that?
  - SmellTheGlove 5y ago
    OK but why and for what purpose?
    - SubiculumCode 5y ago
      THETA->Super Hi Def video streaming https://www.thetatoken.org/ https://www.thetatoken.org/ VET-> Supply Chain Authentication for Businesses https://www.vechain.org/ https://www.vechain.org/ Are two real world examples that are starting to see adoption. Also this articles covers it well: https://101blockchains.com/practical-blockchain-use-cases/ https://101blockchains.com/practical-blockchain-use-cases/

ffggvv 5y ago

protip: dont try engaging cultists. youd have more luck persuading a brick wall.

skoopie 5y ago
Agreed. Fiat maximalists are persistent though.

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

we live in an age when governments are tightening controls and are spying relentlessly on their population, as a result there seems to be a significant demand for means to escape these controls at least somehow, i think crytocurrencies answer this need, so it is not just a pyramid scheme/worldwide casino.