60 ms·

Bob Cassette Rewinder: Hacking Detergent DRM

1260 points by dekuNukem 5y ago

leetrout 5y ago
> Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost £174 ($242) in Bob cassettes alone! Imagine paying that much recurring cost for a dishwasher! We pay at least half of that depending on store prices and whether or not we use name brand Cascade and Jet Dry.
- deanclatworthy 5y ago
  Yep. I purchased some new tablets yesterday (I'd say the most popular ones available) and they were abou 0.12c (€) per tablet. So assuming usage every day of the year (not uncommon in our household) that's €43.80 a year.
- BillinghamJ 5y ago
  That's presumably for a normally sized dishwasher though?
Aardwolf 5y ago
Did you know you can just put detergent in the main compartiment? Why do you need such cassettes? Normally diswashers have something that dispenses it at a particular point in the cycle though. It's a simple mechanism, no complex electronics involved in that either.
- Bancakes 5y ago
  Author states cassettes dispense measured quantities at different times of the washing procedure.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  You don't really want that though, because the water from the first cycle is washed away relatively quickly. For good results, there's two releases of detergent, one for the pre wash and one for the main cycle. Detergent pods have kind of ruined the general dual compartment dishwashing ecosystem, though.
  - BillinghamJ 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
    - ajdude 5y ago
      I was about to post this. Highly recommend it for anyone interested in dishwasher efficiency.
    - OJFord 5y ago
      Pretty much lost me on the presentation; finally lost me on 'these things completely fly in the face of the way most dishwashers are designed to work'. Uh, what? Must be a US thing, whatever the alternative is, because that's (those detergent, salt, perfume, whatever else tablets in a water-soluble wrapper are) all I've ever known. (UK.)
      - davewasthere 5y ago
        Worth checking your dishwasher though. Ditto, that's all I knew in UK (although I mostly hand-washed). But even here in Aus now, there's a little compartment for pre-wash/rinse detergent... but nobody is aware of it that I've come across. That youtube video was revelationary!
        OJFord 5y ago
        Rinse aid? Yeah that goes next to the tablet under a little flap. Supermarkets sell it, usually blue. Is that what the video was about? That tablets 'fly in the face of how dishwashers are supposed to work' because you also need rinse aid? That's nonsense, how every dishwasher I've used has been supposed to work is you keep the salt topped up, the rinse aid topped up, and (supposedly optionally) use a tablet with each wash.
        jeroenhd 5y ago
        No, not rinse aid. The video discusses the way dishwashers work; most of them have two distinct cycles, one spraying off most of the loose food, draining the tub, and then another, which has its water recycled. Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle. The detergent from the first cycle becomes available to the water immediately, the detergent for the second cycle is the part that you put in the compartment. If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish washer's manual. Maybe yours was designed without to forego detergent in the first cycle, because people have switched to pods anyway. Maybe it wasn't, and you can get a hygiene boost by using powder instead of pods. If you use detergent pods, one of your cycles won't run with anything but water. If you put the detergent in the tub, the longer, second cycle runs without detergent. If you put the pod in the little compartment, the first cycle is much less effective than it can be. Many machines are still designed for powder or gel detergents that you put into both compartments. You can get the same dishwasher performance by using two dishwasher tablets per run (one in the tub and one in the compartment) but that'll use up way more detergent than you actually need. Rinse aid is for maintaining your dishwasher, that's something different entirely.
- cigaser 5y ago
  There are like 5 stages, each requires different amount. It is well explained here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
Daniel_sk 5y ago
Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next level. Also I don't get the advantage that you don't need to measure the detergent level, I have always used standard "all-in-one" tabs (1 tab = 1 wash) for my dishwasher, they cost around 0.15 Euro per wash and they only thing I need to add ever few weeks is salt (due to hard water). You can buy the tabs in large packs like 100 in one plastic bag and they are not individually packed (the packaging dissolves during the wash). No need for shipping back the cassette to refill or complicated recycling. We are reinventing the wheel again.
- barrkel 5y ago
  As mentioned in the article, those tabs are for full-sized dishwashers. Also IME, cheap dishwasher tablets (e.g. the generic blue/white combo) don't work very well.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    The tabs are ridiculously ineffective! I had issues for a year with my dishwasher until one of the handymen looking at it suggested to use the powder detergent for the compartments instead. Tried it once and it made a night-and-day difference. Never going back to those shitty tabs if I end up with a full-sized dishwasher in the future.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      We have a Bosch dishwasher and switched over to tablets (Finish brand) when I installed it after using the sample packs. It’s hands-down the most effective dishwasher I’ve ever used; I never imagined I’d have feelings about or brand allegiance to a dishwasher, but Bosch earned it (and Finish is part of it, I guess).
      - mypalmike 5y ago
        Beware of their bottom end models. My house came with a Bosch and it does a decent job cleaning but it's very cheaply made. There's a weld that failed that used to hold the upper spray hose in place, the bottom rack falls out of the track most of the time... My Whirlpool at my previous home was far better built.
mikro2nd 5y ago
Loved the obsessiveness! FWIW the entire beer-brewing industry runs on NaOH for cleaning and sanitising. Disposing of it is not quite as environmentally-friendly as the dishwasher manufacturer seems to want you to believe -- in most places you'd be in serious trouble if you poured any significant quantity down the drain. eta: I've just looked up the constituents of the dishwasher tablets we've been using, and yes, indeed, they're mostly NaOH, an inert carrier (Na2SO4) and a variety of water-softeners, packaging films to keep everything in tablet form (but soluble) and a small number of helper enzymes, perfumes and whiteners. Looks like a teaspoon of NaOH might work justabout as well. :D
- jiggawatts 5y ago
  Sodium hydroxide is only dangerous if concentrated. Diluted, and especially if it is mixed with wastewater, it'll just react with the various organics to form soap-like chemicals. If anything, it'll help clean your sewage pipes! PS: Most draincleaners are just a concentrated NaOH mixture. Consumers pour them down their drain all the time and nobody worries about this either...
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    My plumber always tells me never to use drain cleaners, so I wouldn’t say nobody worries about it...
    - gallexme 5y ago
      But u happily eat it on pretzels? There's no issue in low concentrations
      - martey 5y ago
        Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is lye, which shouldn't be consumed. Pretzel salt is sodium chloride (NaCL).
        kortex 5y ago
hahla 5y ago
The Bob Dishwasher is an interesting concept. Looking at their website it looks like it would fit 6 plates, 6 cups and a set of utensils. What’s the point of this? If you’re cooking for 6, you would have pots and pans which would have to be hand washed. Is 6 more plates and cups worth going through the effort of loading and turning on a dishwasher? Alternatively, I suppose it is more water efficient..
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Seems like a solution for liberating money from people with more cash than sense.
- probably_wrong 5y ago
  I would have loved something like that when I was a student and/or when I was single. I used to have breakfast on the way, lunch at the Uni/work, and a small dinner. 6 plates is therefore close to what I'd use in a week. It's also close to what I'd use nowadays if I weren't still in home office. And while I do have enough room now for a full-sized dishwasher, that wasn't always the case.
- leipert 5y ago
  Mhm. If you are single and use one plate, one cup per meal, you run the dishwasher every two days.
  - mrec 5y ago
    I've been in my current place for about 5 years and have never used the dishwasher. Sink works fine and is almost instant if you wash everything immediately.
    - leipert 5y ago
      Personally I think the biggest argument for a dishwasher is that stuff is not in-sight anymore. They also are more efficient, water wise. Our dishwasher uses 8 liters per wash. If I fill our sink with 8 liters, it barely covers anything. Dish washers use more detergent though, this is why I switched to powder which can be dosed better.
solarkraft 5y ago
All cool and good, but I'd have stopped at step 1: Considering buying a dish washer with DRMed detergent. Sorry, but rewarding people with such outrageous proposals with a purchase is morally questionable in itself.
- lexicality 5y ago
  Yeah at that point I said "Hang on wasn't there a Cory Doctorow story about this?" out loud
  - unixfg 5y ago
    Whole thing is here: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
- azernik 5y ago
  Given the cartridge pricing, the machine itself is likely a loss leader, or at best sold at low margins.
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    You would think that, but I've been in the market for one of these things and this one looks to be about US$100 above the median price. Pay more and become a recurring revenue stream, sounds great!
- bonoboTP 5y ago
  I noped out when it said internet connected dishwasher.
  - mikro2nd 5y ago
    Original hacker did say that he's never allowed the thing an actual internet connection, though, and it's still working just fine. So clearly the internet connectivity is not a hard requirement. I wonder what it does send back to the manufacturer, though... Anybody who owns one up for dumping the contents of their dishwasher's conversation with Mom?
sirsinsalot 5y ago
Actual news about hacking! It is interesting that this is in the UK ... i'm fairly sure most rents come with a full-sized dishwaster when furnished and all properties have the plumbing for one. I'm not sure what the market is. Especially that one of the main value adds was "no mess" when our dishwashers all accept pre-form tablets for detergent. Anyway, I adore these kinds of blog posts. Tinkering, naughtiness and a big dollop of technical knowhow.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > It is interesting that this is in the UK Not sure where you get that from, "Bob" is made/from Paris, France https://daan.tech/en/about-daan-tech/ https://daan.tech/en/about-daan-tech/ In Western/South West Europe (Portugal, Spain, France), full-sized dishwashers are a bit more uncommon I think, especially in single/double room flats in bigger metropolitan areas where flat sizes tend to be in the smaller range. As an anecdote, I've lived in maybe ~20 places and only two of them had come with a dishwasher, only one of them was an apartment. This is the first time I hear about "Bob" and my current place couldn't fit a full-size dishwater but in order to save time and water, I might actually get this. The price is a bit high for what it is though.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Presumably from £ being the primary currency in the readme. I think GP means the hacking is from UK, (and contributors) rather than the manufacturer of this mental device, which is surprising because who in the UK would have one of these when 'normal' dishwashers are basically ubiquitous.
    - sirsinsalot 5y ago
      Yes, I found it strange that anyone in the UK would find value in this device enough to ship one... nevermind hack the cartridge.
      - OJFord 5y ago
thathndude 5y ago
The ROI for the effort probably wasn’t that great. But I can respect the obsession for the hack all the same. Sometimes it’s not about the dollars and cents, and if you let it be a hobby versus work that helps make it worth it.
- ac29 5y ago
  They calculated a savings of over $200/year.
cube2222 5y ago
Really cool story. I'd love to see an overview of what devices and software they used for the initial connecting to a computer, memory dump and memory modify.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  It’s just an I2C EEPROM. You could read and write it with ~50 lines of code on an Arduino (or ESP32 or STM Bluepill or any other microcontroller dev board).
- technothrasher 5y ago
  From the picture, it looks like I2C to SPI (or similar) and then SPI to USB virtual serial port. Not sure why they didn't just go straight to USB with an I2C-USB adapter. Perhaps they didn't have one. Anyway, from there it's just write a quick program to read/write the 24C02 through the virtual serial port and Bob's your uncle, as it were.
jack_riminton 5y ago
This is proper HN content! I'm quite interested to learn what other household items could be replaced by getting commercial equivalents
stunt 5y ago
I think many product designers try to replicate the success of printer cartridges. I try to avoid buying any device that limits the input or supply especially those that require a cartridge. It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly justify the benefit in most cases. I even don't buy the idea of capsule coffee machines. I like those that give you the option to use pads, but not those that only accept capsule. The environment impact is one reason, but I also want the freedom of choosing the supply and the having control on the running cost.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly justify the benefit in most cases. For a second there, before I'd fully parsed your sentence, I read "milk consumers" as "consumers of milk", and all kind of wild ideas started running through my head: "What, they're going to implement the cartridge scam with MILK?!? How's that going to work -- the carton is connected to the Internet, sends a notification somewhere every time I open it, and I get billed according to the number of times, or...?" Then I realized "milk" was a verb here. Whew! OK, so call me paranoid... But still: I think the fact that the idea even occurred to me says something not only about me, but about the current state of the world.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I usually buy Dawn dish soap. It really works well. A machinist friend of mine said they use it as a degreaser at work. A few weeks ago while standing ten deep in Safeway, I read the label. Right on front, they listed at least 11 ingredients. Nothing looked outrageous, but I thought about all the times I didn't rinse that well. I now stoped using it on my dishes. I think the lawyers told them to list the ingredients in bold print? Anyhoo--I now rinse much better than before, and on the lookout for just plain soap.
- nimish 5y ago
  You would want any good soap to be a degreaser. That's the whole point.
qwertox 5y ago
Dishwasher Detergent DRM? It would have never come into my mind that this is something that even exists. What's with the tabs you put into the little chamber, or which I'm just dropping into the cutlery holder since the chamber lid broke of. Aren't they compatible or what? ---- For their website: Is the use of a Bob cassette mandatory? No. However, to ensure optimal washing quality and higher Bob life durability we recommend using the Bob cassette. Can I refill my Bob cassette myself? No. We use a highly concentrated detergent formula which is not publicly available for sale. So we have set up a way to collect used cassettes, clean them and refill them in our factory. This allows us to offer you an optimal washing quality with a zero waste solution! Seems fair to me.
- environment 5y ago
  >dropping into the cutlery holder Are you aware that if your dishwasher has a pre wash cycle before the main wash cycle; then your detergent will be wasted. ? A pre wash cycle is common in european dishwashers.
  - qwertox 5y ago
    Yes, I am aware of this. Pre-Wash cycle ("Vorspühlen") is an additional button which would need to be in a depressed state for this short cycle to be additionally executed and fully exchange the water, but I never use it. I think the main cycle also does refresh a certain percentage of its water, I'm not sure about it. But just using one tab is not enough. I buy the cheap ones from Aldi which are € 0.04 a piece. I use the machine 1.5 times a week, so that extra tab is ~ €1.40 a year.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  They’re oversized for this dishwasher, meaning they’d likely not fully dissolve and rinse off.
  - qwertox 5y ago
    I agree. I didn't read the article after the fact. But what a great article it is. All the details are in there.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
I love reading these hacks! Of course, from a pounds-and-pennies sense, the work he did, hacking the washer, was probably worth enough to buy a dozen of them.
guerrilla 5y ago
Hmm, so should we expect a future where washing machines and other appliances work like this but with actual DRM? That's a dark thought.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Well, printer cartridges already have encrypted chips so you can't change the fill status, so has the future been here for a while? Technically even this single byte is "DRM", it's just a really simple DRM. Or, technically, it's not "digital rights", since the "R" stood for copyright as applied to works of art (music/movies/video games). Maybe they should just make each cartridge have an NFT, snort.
  - foxrider 5y ago
    I don't think that's a protective measure, to me it just looks like a convenient way of tracking the liquid level in the cartridge. I don't think that a hack like this is harming the company or cuts into their revenue - most people wouldn't bother resetting these thing to refill them manually - the labor investment probably isn't worth it. Their target audience would pay for convenience, they already do by opting for cartridges instead of manual addition.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      Wait you're saying most people wouldn't just squeeze a bottle of ink into a cartridge? Maybe, hmm.
aigoochamna 5y ago
Is anyone else bothered by tossing chemicals all over your dishes? I imagine this wouldn't work or be feasible with a more health conscious detergent.
- chiph 5y ago
  Not really. The surfactants/detergents get removed during the rinse cycle. The concentrations are also relatively low. Dishwashers often have a "rinse only" cycle so if this is a concern for you, run one of those after the main cycle. Running a second rinse cycle will still put you ahead so far as water consumption, because dishwashers use much less water than hand-washing.
- kalleboo 5y ago
  Do you just wash your dishes with hot water and no kind of soap or detergent?
- ac29 5y ago
  No? Water is a "chemical". The contents of your digestive tract would probably sound scary to most people as well (hydrochloric acid in the stomach, chenodeoxycholic acid in the intestine, among others).
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  Tossing water soluble chemicals over dishes in a hot water jet, and in a machine that rinses with normal water afterwards. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I do rinse my dishes with cold water before use after I take them out of the washer though.
jacknews 5y ago
It's great hack, but I bet that internet connection can be used to update the firmware. Perhaps the updated version will use encryption, and it'll be like the story in Unauthorized Bread: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  I wonder what sort of new user features they'd deliver with a firmware update. It's a dishwasher! Well I suppose they could add useless gimmicks like "Version 1.2 can now talk directly to Philips Hue bulbs so the dishwasher can blink a lightbulb to notify you"...
  - ruslan 5y ago
    Fancy iPhone app that informs dishwashing finish by a twitter post ?
    - black_puppydog 5y ago
      If it's quiet enough to leave any doubt whether it's still running, then it's probably not able to consistently get stuff clean either... :|
jokoon 5y ago
No matter what product you make, it seems that it's impossible to earn money without using unethical proprietary practices. I guess the brand will argue that the products are "hard to find" and that it requires "precise refilling". And apparently it's even true for such crazy good home products that really don't get enough visibility. I mean it's the first time I discover this washing machine, and I want one. It's almost like this hacking article was just designed as a disguised advertisement for this washing machine.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  I don't think the existence of this product means it's impossible to earn money without using unethical proprietary practices. It just means that this company is yet another one where honestly selling a product one time for the customer's money is not enough. The goal, more and more often, is to lock the customer into a scheme where they will be milked monthly for even more money. It's just too bad these schemes are spreading into every product category. And since they are often disguised as normal products, it is getting easier and easier to accidentally get roped into one of these without realizing it.
  - ruslan 5y ago
    The thing is that it is impossible to compete with a chinese made appliance just by selling a product that will last. You have to sell it for the price significantly lower in hope to return investment by selling locked cartriges. That is where such perverted business schemes come from. The more we allow chinesium to penetrate to our homes, the less room we left for other better products to get developed and find their way to the market.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  It's absolutely possible to earn money by solving a real problem. It only becomes impossible when there is no real problem to solve and you're intentionally creating a problem. Dishwashers are a solved problem and have been for decades. If you search hard enough you can find lower-profile models that solve the "size" problem this current product is trying to address. I'm not sure whether this company is profitable. Most likely they aren't and the proprietary cartridge system is a way to lock people in for future profits and potentially fishing for VC funding or an acquisition by a bigger unethical company happy to milk this thing out until it collapses. Their whole eco-friendly concept (pseudo - because shipping the cartridges is anything but) is to appeal to environment freaks with more money than common sense and/or fish for eco-related awards or government grants (just like Solar Roadways).
HumblyTossed 5y ago
Investors don't want to invest in only HW. They want their MRR. This is all just going to get worse. We'll start seeing everything coming with built in cellular soon.
- layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
  A piece of tinfoil at the right place does wonders!
  - sgtnoodle 5y ago
    The cell modems I've worked with are able to maintain a connection to the network even with a terminating resistor in place of an antenna, and that is from the middle of a cattle ranch 8 miles from the tower. You basically need to go full faraday cage...
- lhoff 5y ago
  Luckily thats never gonna happen in Germany. At least not with a mandatory connection. The cellular coverage is way to bad for that. My parents live in a smaller village. The Dishwasher would have to stand on the upper balcony to get a network connection.
underdeserver 5y ago
Bob looks really cool. I'd 100% buy one and use the "DRM" detergent capsules until they went out of business, just to support them. $2K over 12 years is not enough to bother.
mdeck_ 5y ago
> What's more, the 5L detergent can last well over 3 years of daily wash, while the rinse aid can last almost 12 years! Over those time you would have spent £2088 on Bob cassettes, and who knows if they will even be around then. They certainly will be if even a small percent of their customers buy into their ridiculous subscription model. Look at those sweet, sweet margins!
fnord77 5y ago
great work. I love projects like these. Having fun, saving money and thwarting what are effectively rent-seekers.
williesleg 5y ago
I loves me those extra reliable appliances! Reminds me of hp printers!
SergeAx 5y ago
That Bob is actually a nice piece of tech, well thought off. A bit pricey, though. I like that ultraviolet disinfects option. I am currently living alone, so my 2/3 size (60cm wide) dishwasher stays for days in rinse/wait mode, until it gets close to full to do an actual washing. It is not very good for tableware. A friend of mine got a cheap chinese countertop dishwasher with form-factor of Bob, it is not that fancy, but still got color LEDs inside) She is totally happy with it, except small bits like draining used water into bucket with a hose. I can see Bob's designers didn't solve that too.
lupire 5y ago
At a dollar per wash, in a mini machine, It's cheaper to buy plastic dishes and throw away after use then to buy this detergent!
Dah00n 5y ago
Great post! But so many poor posts about dishwashers in the thread. Ask anyone who services dishwashers (well outside the US at least) and they'll tell you two things: 1) Don't rinse first but if you do only use cold water. I have no idea why on earth dishwashers are connected to hot water in the US as this will make the first rinse work very poorly indeed. It is supposed to be cold to removed starches and dairy products... 2) Tabs are a no go but if you insist it should be soap only (not those 3-in-1 etc.) and should be broken in half. It will gunk up the machine in the long run otherwise. I'd bet that dishwashers would need to be serviced or replaced half as often on average if everyone did this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pitaj 5y ago
  My dishwasher manual says to run the sink until water is hot before starting the dishwasher. Seems to disagree with #1
  - INTPenis 5y ago
    Where? The US? OP is right about the cold water, here in Sweden dishwashers are only connected to cold water and often say in the manual that they take nothing but cold water.
    - pitaj 5y ago
      Yes I'm in the US. Here's a quote from the guide: Start or Resume a Cycle NOTE: Run hot water at the sink nearest your dishwasher until the water is hot. Turn off water.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    Yes it's a strange idea in the US that water should be preheated. Using cold water first is a lot more effective at removing things like dairy and eggs for example. It's way more environmentally friendly to use cold water and let the dishwasher heat it to the correct temperature especially since the first rinse is short so the heated water will just be pumped out again pretty fast.
yalogin 5y ago
The entrepreneur in me loves this idea. They are able to turn dishwashers into a subscription model. I love the reverse engineering even more. A really step by step process, very well written. However I don't understand this specific step here - "So my plan now is to read what's inside the EEPROM. It seemed that a special connector is needed, but after rummaging around the parts bin, I found that it fits into a USB-A female socket just fine! Although I had to insulate the metal case so it won't short on the PCB contacts." Can anyone that understands explain how the EEPROM board can be plugged into a USB socket? Are they similar or is there some overlap? Once its inserted do I use USB protocol to read the data? This is the most interesting part of the whole thing for me. Wish the author explained this more, even if in a separate blog.
- nadavami 5y ago
  It looks like the connector just happens to fit so it's only being used to make the electrical connection. The 4 pins are actually power, ground and I2C data and clock. Edit: Here https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder/blob/master/resources/pics/pmm.jpeg https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder/blob/mast... you can see the white and red wires coming from the USB connector labelled as SDA and SCL.
- sgtnoodle 5y ago
  The EEPROM board uses pads on its PCB to create an "edge connector" with 8 pads. Apparently only 4 pads are needed, and presumably there are twice as many for redundancy. Physically, the PCB happens to fit into a USB socket with close enough spacing to make good contact. This isn't surprising, because it's a very common trick to make USB plugs out of PCBs. Electrically, it's not USB though. It's two pins for power, and two for I2C clock and data. It might happen to have the same voltage and pin mapping for power as USB, though, so plugging in to a USB port on a computer might not blow anything up. A microcontroller with a USB host port might even be able to bit-bang I2C over the appropriate pins, but that would be rather clever...
- mjg59 5y ago
  As others have said, it's not speaking USB - it just happens to be the same shape. But it's probably not a coincidence that it's compatible with a USB socket. In this case the designer wanted a socket that had 4 pins and could be hotswapped fairly regularly. USB sockets satisfy those criteria, are cheap and are easily available. It's pretty common to find standard connectors re-used for other purposes in the embedded world (I've found SATA connectors in some extremely strange places), so it wouldn't surprise me if tearing down this dishwasher did reveal an actual USB socket.
8bitsrule 5y ago
Of course, in order to hack one of these Ter Bebbies, you have to buy one. Either way, Deputy Daan gets ya. "Dosing can be tricky..." So can holding onto your sanity in today's consumer world. After generations of TV advertising, reason is supposed to be the consolation prize.
magoon 5y ago
While it comes across as an obvious cash grab, the cassette is a compelling feature if you consider that it does 30 washes and has its own memory of how many each has left. While it is 2x-3x the cost of traditional dishwasher pods, they are focusing on convenience — all the way down to automatic delivery and return — which deserves to be recognized as innovation in end-to-end product design, service, fulfillment, and product lifecycle.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  Does someone come into the house and change it out? I spend a lot more time (still not much) loading and unloading the dishes than I spend acquiring and pouring powder, so I'm not sure what value I'm supposed to think this would provide.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > Does someone come into the house and change it out? No, you mail it to France and get a full one in the mail.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  You can have about the same experience with standard tablets though and none of the wasteful shipping and plastic cartridges. The dishwasher can be online (for those who want it) and report back the amount of washes (the backend can calculate the amount of washes per week to predict when you're going to run out) so that the manufacturer can send a new box in advance.
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  Nah, in the present environment, no pun intended, they are ecologically irresponsible. Not to mention have a huge carbon footprint. We ought to reward companies on their ability to come up with environmentally friendly ways to get things done.
- rowanG077 5y ago
  Then why didn't they provide simple instructions to refill it at home? All of the factors you mentioned are still there if they were home refillable.
ARothfusz 5y ago
I don't understand how refilling for $0.86 per wash is better than the $0.67 per wash if you use their cartridges? Or how that becomes "75 times cheaper". https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder#cost-showdown https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder#cost-show... How does this math make any sense? With that, the total cost per wash is: 0.62p + 0.018p = 0.638p, or 0.87 US cent! We know from earlier that Bob Cassettes costs 48p (67c) per wash. Therefore, refilling it yourself is more than 75 times cheaper, resulting in a massive 98.7% cost saving compared to buying new! Huh?
- 4ad 5y ago
  A cent is not a dollar.
- admax88q 5y ago
  It's 67 cents vs 0.87 cents. Or $0.67 vs $0.0087
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- suifbwish 5y ago
  I bought a detergentless ozone washer this last year. It works pretty well most of the time for general washing unless you have something really heavy on your clothes like oil
- rgovostes 5y ago
  Back in 2006, Verizon was similarly confused over the meaning of ".002 cents per kilobyte." http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-...
barbazoo 5y ago
Great article. I truly wish that companies that base their business model on environment destroying convenience would just die. But people love their convenience unfortunately.
baybal2 5y ago
How I call it: "Product as a Service:" you buy something, but still don't own it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bogomipz 5y ago
>"I found a leftover board from pimping my microwave, and quickly threw together a contraption to read the EEPROM..." I found this particular line laugh out loud funny. This whole post was a great and a fun read. Cheers.
dperfect 5y ago
Nicely done! Instead of a device to rewind/reset the counter in the EEPROM periodically, I wonder how hard it would be to modify or replace the EEPROM with something that simply ignores any modification to the data (essentially making it read-only). That way, the machine thinks it's decrementing the counter each time, but it always remains full. There'd be no need for a software reset.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I think because you still want the counter so you know when to refill the cartridge. You’re not really benefiting by having it always show full.
  - dperfect 5y ago
    That's true. I suppose keeping track another way might offset the added annoyance of the "rewind" routine (attaching another device, connecting USB for power) when refilling the reservoirs. Personal preference I guess.
    - ruslan 5y ago
      Replace PCB with your own one having MCU with buit-in EEPROM. Add a tiny push button (or just two copper pads), pressing/closing which will dischage a capacitor indicating "need to rewind" to an MCU. When counter is zero, you take off the cartridge, pour in all necessary chemicals, hold the button for a while and put it back into the machine.
  - Lammy 5y ago
    I wonder how well it would work if someone bypassed the cartridge and just hooked the dishwasher directly to the two giant external jugs, like one of those external CMYK ink tank systems for fancy printers.
- userbinator 5y ago
  In the ink cartridge industry those are known as "autoreset chips", and they do count down, but reset once removed from the printer (and presumably because that means you have noticed and now refilled the cartridge.)
boatsie 5y ago
My $1200 7 year old Miele dishwasher stopped working a few months ago, with the “Intake/drain” light on red when starting a load. Dishwashers during the pandemic were sort of scare due to massive home remodeling demand, and the professional repair people would have cost $300 just to diagnose, so I went to try to fix it myself. It turns out the water intake valve solenoid was jammed or gummed up somehow, as applying 120V to it directly had no effect. I went to find an OE replacement online only to find that they are $580, sold by only 2 places, and sold out. You need to be a certified Miele technician to buy them. Given I knew the specifications from the model number and the printing on the solenoid itself wrt voltage and flow rate, I bought the cheapest replacement I could find on Amazon, spliced the wires into the existing harness and boom, it worked perfectly. One thing I didn’t understand was why there were so many different inlet valves that all did the same thing. There were 120V AC and 12V DC versions but other than that the only difference was the water connector/dongle/bracket. It seemed absurd there would be so many but the reality is that actual solenoid is super generic and should only cost $20 and should be made to fit them all. Of course nobody really repairs things these days but I think this is the reason why. Even when the part could easily be standardized and replaced/repaired like a light bulb, companies want you to buy a whole new one.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  There is a reason that appliances, or pretty much any product these days, do not last. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
  - gambiting 5y ago
    I honestly 100000% believe that people use this term incorrectly almost all the time. Planned obsolescence is when something is deliberately made to break quickly so that you buy another one. What is happening here is different - it's a question of "how do we make it as cheap as possible and last as long as the warranty". They sound the same but they really aren't. No one is designing these devices to break deliberately. But companies absolutely are swapping metal cogs for plastic ones because a plastic cog won't break during the warranty period and that's what matters.
0xbadcafebee 5y ago
> Once empty, you can leave it there and add detergents manually. So you don't have to buy their cassettes. You can just fill it like a regular dishwasher.
- sgtnoodle 5y ago
  It seems like a third party could design compatible cassettes and sell them cheaper, using this article as a reference for the EEPROM even.
kumarvvr 5y ago
I don't understand one thing. Why not have a bottle refill system (like those ink tank printers) to have a supply of required chemicals? Sure, you are adding a valve or two, perhaps a couple more sensors, but long term cost savings would be enormous.
WalterBright 5y ago
Ha, I thought that was going to be about a VHS head cleaner tape. Mine came with super-special head cleaning fluid in a tiny bottle. The bottle doesn't last long, and you then have to buy another bottle of super-special cleaning fluid at a super-expensive price. One whiff of the cleaning fluid - hmm, this smells like alcohol! Alcohol works great in it. It also reminds me of back in college in the 70s where there were many audiophiles in the dorm. They'd buy super-special vinyl record cleaning fluid, because nothing but the best for their vinyl records. I just used liquid dish detergent, which works perfectly.
everyone 5y ago
I love people hacking DRM shit like this as much as I hate DRM. It is so nice to see. Sometimes it seems like the world has gone mad. Then you see something like this and realise, no, some other people out there are logical too.
klyrs 5y ago
> An eagle-eyed user flopp pointed out the value at 0xa1 is calculated as Washes left XOR 0x50, thanks! Not sure why they did it like this, but anyway! Hilarious. Sounds like somebody's manager overheard a conversation about one-time pads on the subway
Finnucane 5y ago
> "Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost £174 ($242) in Bob cassettes alone!" I was particularly struck by the this comment. So, the machine is small enough that he can have it as a countertop appliance, but it is also small enough that it gets fill with one day's worth of dishes and needs to be run? So it's a high price to pay for diswashing, especially when it seems the machine is not really doing a lot. It seems like it would be better to just wash the dishes yourself.
- read_if_gay_ 5y ago
  If washing the dishes takes you 15 minutes everyday then you would have to value your time at like $4 per hour for this to not be worth it.
dzhiurgis 5y ago
I wish more appliances would would have some sort of refillable cartridges or containers (not DRM'd obviously). I saw some Japanese laundry washers have large containers for detergent.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
JKCalhoun 5y ago
Pulled the sources. Expecting DMCA take down in 3, 2, 1....
black_puppydog 5y ago
Dammit, there's one tech company using my first name, and they mess it up with a harebrained DRM scheme for soap!? Maybe I should get out of tech. At least "Daan carpentry" won't come up with results that make me instinctively close the tab...
notorandit 5y ago
I wonder how environment friendly that tiny dish washing machine and its detergent is. MAybe it can save some water instead of trivial manual washing, but how pollutant is that waste water? Isn't it better to manually wash those 2 to 6 dishes, 1 to 3 glasses and maybe 1 pan?

1260 points by dekuNukem 5y ago

> Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost £174 ($242) in Bob cassettes alone! Imagine paying that much recurring cost for a dishwasher! We pay at least half of that depending on store prices and whether or not we use name brand Cascade and Jet Dry.

deanclatworthy 5y ago
Yep. I purchased some new tablets yesterday (I'd say the most popular ones available) and they were abou 0.12c (€) per tablet. So assuming usage every day of the year (not uncommon in our household) that's €43.80 a year.
BillinghamJ 5y ago
That's presumably for a normally sized dishwasher though?

Aardwolf 5y ago

Did you know you can just put detergent in the main compartiment? Why do you need such cassettes? Normally diswashers have something that dispenses it at a particular point in the cycle though. It's a simple mechanism, no complex electronics involved in that either.

Bancakes 5y ago
Author states cassettes dispense measured quantities at different times of the washing procedure.
jeroenhd 5y ago
You don't really want that though, because the water from the first cycle is washed away relatively quickly. For good results, there's two releases of detergent, one for the pre wash and one for the main cycle. Detergent pods have kind of ruined the general dual compartment dishwashing ecosystem, though.
- BillinghamJ 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04
  - ajdude 5y ago
    I was about to post this. Highly recommend it for anyone interested in dishwasher efficiency.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Pretty much lost me on the presentation; finally lost me on 'these things completely fly in the face of the way most dishwashers are designed to work'. Uh, what? Must be a US thing, whatever the alternative is, because that's (those detergent, salt, perfume, whatever else tablets in a water-soluble wrapper are) all I've ever known. (UK.)
    - davewasthere 5y ago
      Worth checking your dishwasher though. Ditto, that's all I knew in UK (although I mostly hand-washed). But even here in Aus now, there's a little compartment for pre-wash/rinse detergent... but nobody is aware of it that I've come across. That youtube video was revelationary!
      - OJFord 5y ago
        Rinse aid? Yeah that goes next to the tablet under a little flap. Supermarkets sell it, usually blue. Is that what the video was about? That tablets 'fly in the face of how dishwashers are supposed to work' because you also need rinse aid? That's nonsense, how every dishwasher I've used has been supposed to work is you keep the salt topped up, the rinse aid topped up, and (supposedly optionally) use a tablet with each wash.
        jeroenhd 5y ago
        No, not rinse aid. The video discusses the way dishwashers work; most of them have two distinct cycles, one spraying off most of the loose food, draining the tub, and then another, which has its water recycled. Most dishwashers are designed to have a little detergent in the first cycle and then most in the second cycle. The detergent from the first cycle becomes available to the water immediately, the detergent for the second cycle is the part that you put in the compartment. If you want to know the details, watch the rest of the video. Or, if you don't want to do that, read your dish washer's manual. Maybe yours was designed without to forego detergent in the first cycle, because people have switched to pods anyway. Maybe it wasn't, and you can get a hygiene boost by using powder instead of pods. If you use detergent pods, one of your cycles won't run with anything but water. If you put the detergent in the tub, the longer, second cycle runs without detergent. If you put the pod in the little compartment, the first cycle is much less effective than it can be. Many machines are still designed for powder or gel detergents that you put into both compartments. You can get the same dishwasher performance by using two dishwasher tablets per run (one in the tub and one in the compartment) but that'll use up way more detergent than you actually need. Rinse aid is for maintaining your dishwasher, that's something different entirely.
cigaser 5y ago
There are like 5 stages, each requires different amount. It is well explained here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_rBO8neWw04

Daniel_sk 5y ago

Proprietary cassettes for dishwashing machines? That's next level. Also I don't get the advantage that you don't need to measure the detergent level, I have always used standard "all-in-one" tabs (1 tab = 1 wash) for my dishwasher, they cost around 0.15 Euro per wash and they only thing I need to add ever few weeks is salt (due to hard water). You can buy the tabs in large packs like 100 in one plastic bag and they are not individually packed (the packaging dissolves during the wash). No need for shipping back the cassette to refill or complicated recycling. We are reinventing the wheel again.

barrkel 5y ago
As mentioned in the article, those tabs are for full-sized dishwashers. Also IME, cheap dishwasher tablets (e.g. the generic blue/white combo) don't work very well.
- capableweb 5y ago
  The tabs are ridiculously ineffective! I had issues for a year with my dishwasher until one of the handymen looking at it suggested to use the powder detergent for the compartments instead. Tried it once and it made a night-and-day difference. Never going back to those shitty tabs if I end up with a full-sized dishwasher in the future.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    We have a Bosch dishwasher and switched over to tablets (Finish brand) when I installed it after using the sample packs. It’s hands-down the most effective dishwasher I’ve ever used; I never imagined I’d have feelings about or brand allegiance to a dishwasher, but Bosch earned it (and Finish is part of it, I guess).
    - mypalmike 5y ago
      Beware of their bottom end models. My house came with a Bosch and it does a decent job cleaning but it's very cheaply made. There's a weld that failed that used to hold the upper spray hose in place, the bottom rack falls out of the track most of the time... My Whirlpool at my previous home was far better built.

mikro2nd 5y ago

Loved the obsessiveness! FWIW the entire beer-brewing industry runs on NaOH for cleaning and sanitising. Disposing of it is not quite as environmentally-friendly as the dishwasher manufacturer seems to want you to believe -- in most places you'd be in serious trouble if you poured any significant quantity down the drain. eta: I've just looked up the constituents of the dishwasher tablets we've been using, and yes, indeed, they're mostly NaOH, an inert carrier (Na2SO4) and a variety of water-softeners, packaging films to keep everything in tablet form (but soluble) and a small number of helper enzymes, perfumes and whiteners. Looks like a teaspoon of NaOH might work justabout as well. :D

jiggawatts 5y ago
Sodium hydroxide is only dangerous if concentrated. Diluted, and especially if it is mixed with wastewater, it'll just react with the various organics to form soap-like chemicals. If anything, it'll help clean your sewage pipes! PS: Most draincleaners are just a concentrated NaOH mixture. Consumers pour them down their drain all the time and nobody worries about this either...
- cortesoft 5y ago
  My plumber always tells me never to use drain cleaners, so I wouldn’t say nobody worries about it...
  - gallexme 5y ago
    But u happily eat it on pretzels? There's no issue in low concentrations
    - martey 5y ago
      Sodium hydroxide (NaOH) is lye, which shouldn't be consumed. Pretzel salt is sodium chloride (NaCL).
      - kortex 5y ago

hahla 5y ago

The Bob Dishwasher is an interesting concept. Looking at their website it looks like it would fit 6 plates, 6 cups and a set of utensils. What’s the point of this? If you’re cooking for 6, you would have pots and pans which would have to be hand washed. Is 6 more plates and cups worth going through the effort of loading and turning on a dishwasher? Alternatively, I suppose it is more water efficient..

Spooky23 5y ago
Seems like a solution for liberating money from people with more cash than sense.
probably_wrong 5y ago
I would have loved something like that when I was a student and/or when I was single. I used to have breakfast on the way, lunch at the Uni/work, and a small dinner. 6 plates is therefore close to what I'd use in a week. It's also close to what I'd use nowadays if I weren't still in home office. And while I do have enough room now for a full-sized dishwasher, that wasn't always the case.
leipert 5y ago
Mhm. If you are single and use one plate, one cup per meal, you run the dishwasher every two days.
- mrec 5y ago
  I've been in my current place for about 5 years and have never used the dishwasher. Sink works fine and is almost instant if you wash everything immediately.
  - leipert 5y ago
    Personally I think the biggest argument for a dishwasher is that stuff is not in-sight anymore. They also are more efficient, water wise. Our dishwasher uses 8 liters per wash. If I fill our sink with 8 liters, it barely covers anything. Dish washers use more detergent though, this is why I switched to powder which can be dosed better.

solarkraft 5y ago

All cool and good, but I'd have stopped at step 1: Considering buying a dish washer with DRMed detergent. Sorry, but rewarding people with such outrageous proposals with a purchase is morally questionable in itself.

lexicality 5y ago
Yeah at that point I said "Hang on wasn't there a Cory Doctorow story about this?" out loud
- unixfg 5y ago
  Whole thing is here: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...
azernik 5y ago
Given the cartridge pricing, the machine itself is likely a loss leader, or at best sold at low margins.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  You would think that, but I've been in the market for one of these things and this one looks to be about US$100 above the median price. Pay more and become a recurring revenue stream, sounds great!
bonoboTP 5y ago
I noped out when it said internet connected dishwasher.
- mikro2nd 5y ago
  Original hacker did say that he's never allowed the thing an actual internet connection, though, and it's still working just fine. So clearly the internet connectivity is not a hard requirement. I wonder what it does send back to the manufacturer, though... Anybody who owns one up for dumping the contents of their dishwasher's conversation with Mom?

sirsinsalot 5y ago

Actual news about hacking! It is interesting that this is in the UK ... i'm fairly sure most rents come with a full-sized dishwaster when furnished and all properties have the plumbing for one. I'm not sure what the market is. Especially that one of the main value adds was "no mess" when our dishwashers all accept pre-form tablets for detergent. Anyway, I adore these kinds of blog posts. Tinkering, naughtiness and a big dollop of technical knowhow.

capableweb 5y ago
> It is interesting that this is in the UK Not sure where you get that from, "Bob" is made/from Paris, France https://daan.tech/en/about-daan-tech/ https://daan.tech/en/about-daan-tech/ In Western/South West Europe (Portugal, Spain, France), full-sized dishwashers are a bit more uncommon I think, especially in single/double room flats in bigger metropolitan areas where flat sizes tend to be in the smaller range. As an anecdote, I've lived in maybe ~20 places and only two of them had come with a dishwasher, only one of them was an apartment. This is the first time I hear about "Bob" and my current place couldn't fit a full-size dishwater but in order to save time and water, I might actually get this. The price is a bit high for what it is though.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Presumably from £ being the primary currency in the readme. I think GP means the hacking is from UK, (and contributors) rather than the manufacturer of this mental device, which is surprising because who in the UK would have one of these when 'normal' dishwashers are basically ubiquitous.
  - sirsinsalot 5y ago
    Yes, I found it strange that anyone in the UK would find value in this device enough to ship one... nevermind hack the cartridge.
    - OJFord 5y ago

thathndude 5y ago

The ROI for the effort probably wasn’t that great. But I can respect the obsession for the hack all the same. Sometimes it’s not about the dollars and cents, and if you let it be a hobby versus work that helps make it worth it.

ac29 5y ago
They calculated a savings of over $200/year.

cube2222 5y ago

Really cool story. I'd love to see an overview of what devices and software they used for the initial connecting to a computer, memory dump and memory modify.

sokoloff 5y ago
It’s just an I2C EEPROM. You could read and write it with ~50 lines of code on an Arduino (or ESP32 or STM Bluepill or any other microcontroller dev board).
technothrasher 5y ago
From the picture, it looks like I2C to SPI (or similar) and then SPI to USB virtual serial port. Not sure why they didn't just go straight to USB with an I2C-USB adapter. Perhaps they didn't have one. Anyway, from there it's just write a quick program to read/write the 24C02 through the virtual serial port and Bob's your uncle, as it were.

jack_riminton 5y ago

This is proper HN content! I'm quite interested to learn what other household items could be replaced by getting commercial equivalents

stunt 5y ago

I think many product designers try to replicate the success of printer cartridges. I try to avoid buying any device that limits the input or supply especially those that require a cartridge. It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly justify the benefit in most cases. I even don't buy the idea of capsule coffee machines. I like those that give you the option to use pads, but not those that only accept capsule. The environment impact is one reason, but I also want the freedom of choosing the supply and the having control on the running cost.

CRConrad 5y ago
> It's a clear method to milk consumers and they can hardly justify the benefit in most cases. For a second there, before I'd fully parsed your sentence, I read "milk consumers" as "consumers of milk", and all kind of wild ideas started running through my head: "What, they're going to implement the cartridge scam with MILK?!? How's that going to work -- the carton is connected to the Internet, sends a notification somewhere every time I open it, and I get billed according to the number of times, or...?" Then I realized "milk" was a verb here. Whew! OK, so call me paranoid... But still: I think the fact that the idea even occurred to me says something not only about me, but about the current state of the world.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I usually buy Dawn dish soap. It really works well. A machinist friend of mine said they use it as a degreaser at work. A few weeks ago while standing ten deep in Safeway, I read the label. Right on front, they listed at least 11 ingredients. Nothing looked outrageous, but I thought about all the times I didn't rinse that well. I now stoped using it on my dishes. I think the lawyers told them to list the ingredients in bold print? Anyhoo--I now rinse much better than before, and on the lookout for just plain soap.

nimish 5y ago
You would want any good soap to be a degreaser. That's the whole point.

qwertox 5y ago

Dishwasher Detergent DRM? It would have never come into my mind that this is something that even exists. What's with the tabs you put into the little chamber, or which I'm just dropping into the cutlery holder since the chamber lid broke of. Aren't they compatible or what? ---- For their website: Is the use of a Bob cassette mandatory? No. However, to ensure optimal washing quality and higher Bob life durability we recommend using the Bob cassette. Can I refill my Bob cassette myself? No. We use a highly concentrated detergent formula which is not publicly available for sale. So we have set up a way to collect used cassettes, clean them and refill them in our factory. This allows us to offer you an optimal washing quality with a zero waste solution! Seems fair to me.

environment 5y ago
>dropping into the cutlery holder Are you aware that if your dishwasher has a pre wash cycle before the main wash cycle; then your detergent will be wasted. ? A pre wash cycle is common in european dishwashers.
- qwertox 5y ago
  Yes, I am aware of this. Pre-Wash cycle ("Vorspühlen") is an additional button which would need to be in a depressed state for this short cycle to be additionally executed and fully exchange the water, but I never use it. I think the main cycle also does refresh a certain percentage of its water, I'm not sure about it. But just using one tab is not enough. I buy the cheap ones from Aldi which are € 0.04 a piece. I use the machine 1.5 times a week, so that extra tab is ~ €1.40 a year.
sokoloff 5y ago
They’re oversized for this dishwasher, meaning they’d likely not fully dissolve and rinse off.
- qwertox 5y ago
  I agree. I didn't read the article after the fact. But what a great article it is. All the details are in there.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

I love reading these hacks! Of course, from a pounds-and-pennies sense, the work he did, hacking the washer, was probably worth enough to buy a dozen of them.

guerrilla 5y ago

Hmm, so should we expect a future where washing machines and other appliances work like this but with actual DRM? That's a dark thought.

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
Well, printer cartridges already have encrypted chips so you can't change the fill status, so has the future been here for a while? Technically even this single byte is "DRM", it's just a really simple DRM. Or, technically, it's not "digital rights", since the "R" stood for copyright as applied to works of art (music/movies/video games). Maybe they should just make each cartridge have an NFT, snort.
- foxrider 5y ago
  I don't think that's a protective measure, to me it just looks like a convenient way of tracking the liquid level in the cartridge. I don't think that a hack like this is harming the company or cuts into their revenue - most people wouldn't bother resetting these thing to refill them manually - the labor investment probably isn't worth it. Their target audience would pay for convenience, they already do by opting for cartridges instead of manual addition.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Wait you're saying most people wouldn't just squeeze a bottle of ink into a cartridge? Maybe, hmm.

aigoochamna 5y ago

Is anyone else bothered by tossing chemicals all over your dishes? I imagine this wouldn't work or be feasible with a more health conscious detergent.

chiph 5y ago
Not really. The surfactants/detergents get removed during the rinse cycle. The concentrations are also relatively low. Dishwashers often have a "rinse only" cycle so if this is a concern for you, run one of those after the main cycle. Running a second rinse cycle will still put you ahead so far as water consumption, because dishwashers use much less water than hand-washing.
kalleboo 5y ago
Do you just wash your dishes with hot water and no kind of soap or detergent?
ac29 5y ago
No? Water is a "chemical". The contents of your digestive tract would probably sound scary to most people as well (hydrochloric acid in the stomach, chenodeoxycholic acid in the intestine, among others).
kumarvvr 5y ago
Tossing water soluble chemicals over dishes in a hot water jet, and in a machine that rinses with normal water afterwards. I wouldn't worry too much about it. I do rinse my dishes with cold water before use after I take them out of the washer though.

jacknews 5y ago

It's great hack, but I bet that internet connection can be used to update the firmware. Perhaps the updated version will use encryption, and it'll be like the story in Unauthorized Bread: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-near-future-tale-of-refugees-and-sinister-iot-appliances/ https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-bread-a-...

bellyfullofbac 5y ago
I wonder what sort of new user features they'd deliver with a firmware update. It's a dishwasher! Well I suppose they could add useless gimmicks like "Version 1.2 can now talk directly to Philips Hue bulbs so the dishwasher can blink a lightbulb to notify you"...
- ruslan 5y ago
  Fancy iPhone app that informs dishwashing finish by a twitter post ?
  - black_puppydog 5y ago
    If it's quiet enough to leave any doubt whether it's still running, then it's probably not able to consistently get stuff clean either... :|

jokoon 5y ago

No matter what product you make, it seems that it's impossible to earn money without using unethical proprietary practices. I guess the brand will argue that the products are "hard to find" and that it requires "precise refilling". And apparently it's even true for such crazy good home products that really don't get enough visibility. I mean it's the first time I discover this washing machine, and I want one. It's almost like this hacking article was just designed as a disguised advertisement for this washing machine.

ryandrake 5y ago
I don't think the existence of this product means it's impossible to earn money without using unethical proprietary practices. It just means that this company is yet another one where honestly selling a product one time for the customer's money is not enough. The goal, more and more often, is to lock the customer into a scheme where they will be milked monthly for even more money. It's just too bad these schemes are spreading into every product category. And since they are often disguised as normal products, it is getting easier and easier to accidentally get roped into one of these without realizing it.
- ruslan 5y ago
  The thing is that it is impossible to compete with a chinese made appliance just by selling a product that will last. You have to sell it for the price significantly lower in hope to return investment by selling locked cartriges. That is where such perverted business schemes come from. The more we allow chinesium to penetrate to our homes, the less room we left for other better products to get developed and find their way to the market.
Nextgrid 5y ago
It's absolutely possible to earn money by solving a real problem. It only becomes impossible when there is no real problem to solve and you're intentionally creating a problem. Dishwashers are a solved problem and have been for decades. If you search hard enough you can find lower-profile models that solve the "size" problem this current product is trying to address. I'm not sure whether this company is profitable. Most likely they aren't and the proprietary cartridge system is a way to lock people in for future profits and potentially fishing for VC funding or an acquisition by a bigger unethical company happy to milk this thing out until it collapses. Their whole eco-friendly concept (pseudo - because shipping the cartridges is anything but) is to appeal to environment freaks with more money than common sense and/or fish for eco-related awards or government grants (just like Solar Roadways).

HumblyTossed 5y ago

Investors don't want to invest in only HW. They want their MRR. This is all just going to get worse. We'll start seeing everything coming with built in cellular soon.

layoutIfNeeded 5y ago
A piece of tinfoil at the right place does wonders!
- sgtnoodle 5y ago
  The cell modems I've worked with are able to maintain a connection to the network even with a terminating resistor in place of an antenna, and that is from the middle of a cattle ranch 8 miles from the tower. You basically need to go full faraday cage...
lhoff 5y ago
Luckily thats never gonna happen in Germany. At least not with a mandatory connection. The cellular coverage is way to bad for that. My parents live in a smaller village. The Dishwasher would have to stand on the upper balcony to get a network connection.

underdeserver 5y ago

Bob looks really cool. I'd 100% buy one and use the "DRM" detergent capsules until they went out of business, just to support them. $2K over 12 years is not enough to bother.

mdeck_ 5y ago

> What's more, the 5L detergent can last well over 3 years of daily wash, while the rinse aid can last almost 12 years! Over those time you would have spent £2088 on Bob cassettes, and who knows if they will even be around then. They certainly will be if even a small percent of their customers buy into their ridiculous subscription model. Look at those sweet, sweet margins!

fnord77 5y ago

great work. I love projects like these. Having fun, saving money and thwarting what are effectively rent-seekers.

williesleg 5y ago

I loves me those extra reliable appliances! Reminds me of hp printers!

SergeAx 5y ago

That Bob is actually a nice piece of tech, well thought off. A bit pricey, though. I like that ultraviolet disinfects option. I am currently living alone, so my 2/3 size (60cm wide) dishwasher stays for days in rinse/wait mode, until it gets close to full to do an actual washing. It is not very good for tableware. A friend of mine got a cheap chinese countertop dishwasher with form-factor of Bob, it is not that fancy, but still got color LEDs inside) She is totally happy with it, except small bits like draining used water into bucket with a hose. I can see Bob's designers didn't solve that too.

lupire 5y ago

At a dollar per wash, in a mini machine, It's cheaper to buy plastic dishes and throw away after use then to buy this detergent!

Dah00n 5y ago

Great post! But so many poor posts about dishwashers in the thread. Ask anyone who services dishwashers (well outside the US at least) and they'll tell you two things: 1) Don't rinse first but if you do only use cold water. I have no idea why on earth dishwashers are connected to hot water in the US as this will make the first rinse work very poorly indeed. It is supposed to be cold to removed starches and dairy products... 2) Tabs are a no go but if you insist it should be soap only (not those 3-in-1 etc.) and should be broken in half. It will gunk up the machine in the long run otherwise. I'd bet that dishwashers would need to be serviced or replaced half as often on average if everyone did this.

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pitaj 5y ago
My dishwasher manual says to run the sink until water is hot before starting the dishwasher. Seems to disagree with #1
- INTPenis 5y ago
  Where? The US? OP is right about the cold water, here in Sweden dishwashers are only connected to cold water and often say in the manual that they take nothing but cold water.
  - pitaj 5y ago
    Yes I'm in the US. Here's a quote from the guide: Start or Resume a Cycle NOTE: Run hot water at the sink nearest your dishwasher until the water is hot. Turn off water.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Yes it's a strange idea in the US that water should be preheated. Using cold water first is a lot more effective at removing things like dairy and eggs for example. It's way more environmentally friendly to use cold water and let the dishwasher heat it to the correct temperature especially since the first rinse is short so the heated water will just be pumped out again pretty fast.

yalogin 5y ago

The entrepreneur in me loves this idea. They are able to turn dishwashers into a subscription model. I love the reverse engineering even more. A really step by step process, very well written. However I don't understand this specific step here - "So my plan now is to read what's inside the EEPROM. It seemed that a special connector is needed, but after rummaging around the parts bin, I found that it fits into a USB-A female socket just fine! Although I had to insulate the metal case so it won't short on the PCB contacts." Can anyone that understands explain how the EEPROM board can be plugged into a USB socket? Are they similar or is there some overlap? Once its inserted do I use USB protocol to read the data? This is the most interesting part of the whole thing for me. Wish the author explained this more, even if in a separate blog.

nadavami 5y ago
It looks like the connector just happens to fit so it's only being used to make the electrical connection. The 4 pins are actually power, ground and I2C data and clock. Edit: Here https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder/blob/master/resources/pics/pmm.jpeg https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder/blob/mast... you can see the white and red wires coming from the USB connector labelled as SDA and SCL.
sgtnoodle 5y ago
The EEPROM board uses pads on its PCB to create an "edge connector" with 8 pads. Apparently only 4 pads are needed, and presumably there are twice as many for redundancy. Physically, the PCB happens to fit into a USB socket with close enough spacing to make good contact. This isn't surprising, because it's a very common trick to make USB plugs out of PCBs. Electrically, it's not USB though. It's two pins for power, and two for I2C clock and data. It might happen to have the same voltage and pin mapping for power as USB, though, so plugging in to a USB port on a computer might not blow anything up. A microcontroller with a USB host port might even be able to bit-bang I2C over the appropriate pins, but that would be rather clever...
mjg59 5y ago
As others have said, it's not speaking USB - it just happens to be the same shape. But it's probably not a coincidence that it's compatible with a USB socket. In this case the designer wanted a socket that had 4 pins and could be hotswapped fairly regularly. USB sockets satisfy those criteria, are cheap and are easily available. It's pretty common to find standard connectors re-used for other purposes in the embedded world (I've found SATA connectors in some extremely strange places), so it wouldn't surprise me if tearing down this dishwasher did reveal an actual USB socket.

8bitsrule 5y ago

Of course, in order to hack one of these Ter Bebbies, you have to buy one. Either way, Deputy Daan gets ya. "Dosing can be tricky..." So can holding onto your sanity in today's consumer world. After generations of TV advertising, reason is supposed to be the consolation prize.

magoon 5y ago

While it comes across as an obvious cash grab, the cassette is a compelling feature if you consider that it does 30 washes and has its own memory of how many each has left. While it is 2x-3x the cost of traditional dishwasher pods, they are focusing on convenience — all the way down to automatic delivery and return — which deserves to be recognized as innovation in end-to-end product design, service, fulfillment, and product lifecycle.

maxerickson 5y ago
Does someone come into the house and change it out? I spend a lot more time (still not much) loading and unloading the dishes than I spend acquiring and pouring powder, so I'm not sure what value I'm supposed to think this would provide.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > Does someone come into the house and change it out? No, you mail it to France and get a full one in the mail.
Nextgrid 5y ago
You can have about the same experience with standard tablets though and none of the wasteful shipping and plastic cartridges. The dishwasher can be online (for those who want it) and report back the amount of washes (the backend can calculate the amount of washes per week to predict when you're going to run out) so that the manufacturer can send a new box in advance.
kumarvvr 5y ago
Nah, in the present environment, no pun intended, they are ecologically irresponsible. Not to mention have a huge carbon footprint. We ought to reward companies on their ability to come up with environmentally friendly ways to get things done.
rowanG077 5y ago
Then why didn't they provide simple instructions to refill it at home? All of the factors you mentioned are still there if they were home refillable.

ARothfusz 5y ago

I don't understand how refilling for $0.86 per wash is better than the $0.67 per wash if you use their cartridges? Or how that becomes "75 times cheaper". https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder#cost-showdown https://github.com/dekuNukem/bob_cassette_rewinder#cost-show... How does this math make any sense? With that, the total cost per wash is: 0.62p + 0.018p = 0.638p, or 0.87 US cent! We know from earlier that Bob Cassettes costs 48p (67c) per wash. Therefore, refilling it yourself is more than 75 times cheaper, resulting in a massive 98.7% cost saving compared to buying new! Huh?

4ad 5y ago
A cent is not a dollar.
admax88q 5y ago
It's 67 cents vs 0.87 cents. Or $0.67 vs $0.0087
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suifbwish 5y ago
I bought a detergentless ozone washer this last year. It works pretty well most of the time for general washing unless you have something really heavy on your clothes like oil
rgovostes 5y ago
Back in 2006, Verizon was similarly confused over the meaning of ".002 cents per kilobyte." http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-dollars-from-cents.html http://verizonmath.blogspot.com/2006/12/verizon-doesnt-know-...

barbazoo 5y ago

Great article. I truly wish that companies that base their business model on environment destroying convenience would just die. But people love their convenience unfortunately.

baybal2 5y ago

How I call it: "Product as a Service:" you buy something, but still don't own it.

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bogomipz 5y ago

>"I found a leftover board from pimping my microwave, and quickly threw together a contraption to read the EEPROM..." I found this particular line laugh out loud funny. This whole post was a great and a fun read. Cheers.

dperfect 5y ago

Nicely done! Instead of a device to rewind/reset the counter in the EEPROM periodically, I wonder how hard it would be to modify or replace the EEPROM with something that simply ignores any modification to the data (essentially making it read-only). That way, the machine thinks it's decrementing the counter each time, but it always remains full. There'd be no need for a software reset.

Spivak 5y ago
I think because you still want the counter so you know when to refill the cartridge. You’re not really benefiting by having it always show full.
- dperfect 5y ago
  That's true. I suppose keeping track another way might offset the added annoyance of the "rewind" routine (attaching another device, connecting USB for power) when refilling the reservoirs. Personal preference I guess.
  - ruslan 5y ago
    Replace PCB with your own one having MCU with buit-in EEPROM. Add a tiny push button (or just two copper pads), pressing/closing which will dischage a capacitor indicating "need to rewind" to an MCU. When counter is zero, you take off the cartridge, pour in all necessary chemicals, hold the button for a while and put it back into the machine.
- Lammy 5y ago
  I wonder how well it would work if someone bypassed the cartridge and just hooked the dishwasher directly to the two giant external jugs, like one of those external CMYK ink tank systems for fancy printers.
userbinator 5y ago
In the ink cartridge industry those are known as "autoreset chips", and they do count down, but reset once removed from the printer (and presumably because that means you have noticed and now refilled the cartridge.)

boatsie 5y ago

My $1200 7 year old Miele dishwasher stopped working a few months ago, with the “Intake/drain” light on red when starting a load. Dishwashers during the pandemic were sort of scare due to massive home remodeling demand, and the professional repair people would have cost $300 just to diagnose, so I went to try to fix it myself. It turns out the water intake valve solenoid was jammed or gummed up somehow, as applying 120V to it directly had no effect. I went to find an OE replacement online only to find that they are $580, sold by only 2 places, and sold out. You need to be a certified Miele technician to buy them. Given I knew the specifications from the model number and the printing on the solenoid itself wrt voltage and flow rate, I bought the cheapest replacement I could find on Amazon, spliced the wires into the existing harness and boom, it worked perfectly. One thing I didn’t understand was why there were so many different inlet valves that all did the same thing. There were 120V AC and 12V DC versions but other than that the only difference was the water connector/dongle/bracket. It seemed absurd there would be so many but the reality is that actual solenoid is super generic and should only cost $20 and should be made to fit them all. Of course nobody really repairs things these days but I think this is the reason why. Even when the part could easily be standardized and replaced/repaired like a light bulb, companies want you to buy a whole new one.

annoyingnoob 5y ago
There is a reason that appliances, or pretty much any product these days, do not last. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planned_obsolescence
- gambiting 5y ago
  I honestly 100000% believe that people use this term incorrectly almost all the time. Planned obsolescence is when something is deliberately made to break quickly so that you buy another one. What is happening here is different - it's a question of "how do we make it as cheap as possible and last as long as the warranty". They sound the same but they really aren't. No one is designing these devices to break deliberately. But companies absolutely are swapping metal cogs for plastic ones because a plastic cog won't break during the warranty period and that's what matters.

0xbadcafebee 5y ago

> Once empty, you can leave it there and add detergents manually. So you don't have to buy their cassettes. You can just fill it like a regular dishwasher.

sgtnoodle 5y ago
It seems like a third party could design compatible cassettes and sell them cheaper, using this article as a reference for the EEPROM even.

kumarvvr 5y ago

I don't understand one thing. Why not have a bottle refill system (like those ink tank printers) to have a supply of required chemicals? Sure, you are adding a valve or two, perhaps a couple more sensors, but long term cost savings would be enormous.

WalterBright 5y ago

Ha, I thought that was going to be about a VHS head cleaner tape. Mine came with super-special head cleaning fluid in a tiny bottle. The bottle doesn't last long, and you then have to buy another bottle of super-special cleaning fluid at a super-expensive price. One whiff of the cleaning fluid - hmm, this smells like alcohol! Alcohol works great in it. It also reminds me of back in college in the 70s where there were many audiophiles in the dorm. They'd buy super-special vinyl record cleaning fluid, because nothing but the best for their vinyl records. I just used liquid dish detergent, which works perfectly.

everyone 5y ago

I love people hacking DRM shit like this as much as I hate DRM. It is so nice to see. Sometimes it seems like the world has gone mad. Then you see something like this and realise, no, some other people out there are logical too.

klyrs 5y ago

> An eagle-eyed user flopp pointed out the value at 0xa1 is calculated as Washes left XOR 0x50, thanks! Not sure why they did it like this, but anyway! Hilarious. Sounds like somebody's manager overheard a conversation about one-time pads on the subway

Finnucane 5y ago

> "Over a year of daily washes, it would have cost £174 ($242) in Bob cassettes alone!" I was particularly struck by the this comment. So, the machine is small enough that he can have it as a countertop appliance, but it is also small enough that it gets fill with one day's worth of dishes and needs to be run? So it's a high price to pay for diswashing, especially when it seems the machine is not really doing a lot. It seems like it would be better to just wash the dishes yourself.

read_if_gay_ 5y ago
If washing the dishes takes you 15 minutes everyday then you would have to value your time at like $4 per hour for this to not be worth it.

dzhiurgis 5y ago

I wish more appliances would would have some sort of refillable cartridges or containers (not DRM'd obviously). I saw some Japanese laundry washers have large containers for detergent.

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JKCalhoun 5y ago

Pulled the sources. Expecting DMCA take down in 3, 2, 1....

black_puppydog 5y ago

Dammit, there's one tech company using my first name, and they mess it up with a harebrained DRM scheme for soap!? Maybe I should get out of tech. At least "Daan carpentry" won't come up with results that make me instinctively close the tab...

notorandit 5y ago

I wonder how environment friendly that tiny dish washing machine and its detergent is. MAybe it can save some water instead of trivial manual washing, but how pollutant is that waste water? Isn't it better to manually wash those 2 to 6 dishes, 1 to 3 glasses and maybe 1 pan?