16 ms·

Cars are about to be a software platform, subscriptions and all

131 points by sleepyshift 5y ago

obviouslynotme 5y ago
I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.
- lostlogin 5y ago
  > I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I know it’s what you want but is it preventable? What’s the difference when today there are LED screens across the intersection you are trying to navigate that are intensely bright and displaying moving images? I’d argue that dimmer images in the car would be less distracting. However we appear on track to get both these dismal options. I won’t be buying a car with build in advertising, but given the frequency I change cars, this isn’t really any change.
  - fridif 5y ago
    Yes, it is preventable if you buy a car that doesn't have it inside of it. As long as companies (or people) are allowed/able to make cars without ads in them, then it will be possible. If the government mandates, or market conditions dictate (due to monopolies or insufficient demand/profit incentive), that ads will be in cars, then it will not be possible, at least for new cars.
  - obviouslynotme 5y ago
    It has nothing to do with flashing images, which I do not tolerate in my car either. It has to do with ads themselves, which have always walked the line between interactivity and malware. I don't want someone to be able to run arbitrary code on my car for $0.0004. No way. Could you imagine ransomware on your CAR? While you are driving in it?? No thank you.
    - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
      Cars should not be connected to internet, period. If you want some component to be able to be part of the car and connected, it should be hardware that is physically not linked to the car system itself in any way. And you should not be able to issue OTA without some manual hardware operation, like turning a key somewhere that is far from the wheel.
- sz4kerto 5y ago
  > I want it to be like my microwave. Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.
  - bombela 5y ago
    Yes. Definitively not like my microwave. My microwave has not only the worst interface. But it also lags. The polling rate of the capacitive touche buttons is too low. And any action also takes a second to validate. It's horrendous. Give me back my late grandma microwave. Two knobs. Nothing more.
    - fooblat 5y ago
      After much research I purchased a Samsung MWF300G[0] a modern microwave with only 2 dials. Used daily for 5 years and I love it. 0. https://www.samsung.com/levant/microwave-ovens/solo/mwf300g-k3050/ https://www.samsung.com/levant/microwave-ovens/solo/mwf300g-...
      - thraway123412 5y ago
        Does yours beep if you don't open the lid in a minute after it turns off? Mine does and that is super annoying. Annoying enough that I'm thinking of removing the buzzer or just buying another microwave. I do like the simple dual dial design though.
  - tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
    I'm willing to go further. My parents' microwave has a single knob, and mine has two but I have never used it at something other than "High".
  - kstenerud 5y ago
    I bought an industrial microwave a number of years ago just for this feature: Its controls consist of a single dial: how long to cook for. Also, in an industrial microwave the magnetron itself rotates, so there's no silly rotating plate business. Just put food in, turn the dial, take food out, and clean up is a snap.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  The microwave analogy is tricky, because those are generally not worth repairing (or even doing routine maintenance to prolong life) and are cheap and reliable enough that you wouldn’t want to pay a subscription for them unless it was a very cheap subscription. I’d love to have that situation for a car, but I don’t think it’s realistic without moving to a subscription model.
- Traster 5y ago
  The problem is that you're not going to have this choice. You'll be that guy insisting he wants a phone that's thicker but has better battery life - no manufacturer cares what you want because they have to operate at a scale where they can't cater for niches.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    I'm not so sure. Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right. The car market seems way different than the phone market. It's not an information platform, it moves matter. It's not virtual, it's real. It's not luxury like the phone used to be, people life depends on it already. It's not a free market, but heavily regulated. And a car is very, very expensive. Second hand is a huge thing. You don't replace your car every 2 years. The market for maintenance and service is it's own industry, and the state is deep in it. Not to mention the the huge quantity of material you need just to build one car. Finally, if a car fails, a BSOD becomes quite literal.
    - AmericanChopper 5y ago
      > Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right. These aren’t really great examples of marketing to a niche. Automatic transmissions cost more money, so manuals are more popular than they are in the US in every country that has less disposable income than the US. The primary reason it’s so easy to get a left hand drive car in Australia is because the UK and Japan drive on the left.
      - fomine3 5y ago
        > in every country that has less disposable income than the US So you argue almost all country prefer manuals? It's not true at least in Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
- radioooooo 5y ago
  > I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. LMAO! OK, who's gonna tell him about the ads on the radio?
  - caddywompus 5y ago
    Radio ads can: - be turned off by turning off the radio - are not inherent to the operation of the vehicle
  - obviouslynotme 5y ago
    Classic radio is down-only. It goes through hardware for demodulation and amplification. I can turn a classic radio off. How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention? How long until someone uses the radio to ransomware your car using a remote code execution vulnerability?
    - pavel_lishin 5y ago
      > How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention? When I was in high school, the local radio station played a siren as part of the intro to their traffic update segment. Being a high schooler, I naturally had my volume cranked up pretty high - leading to at least a once-a-week near-swerve on my way to school as the segment began.
  - tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
    Never understood people complaining of radio ads until I got to hear what American radio is like. They legit play ads after almost every song. Yikes!
  - coldtea 5y ago
    LMAO fail. Radio is optional as you can switch it off at any time, change the volume, is not imposed by the manufacturer, and you had the option to listen to your own cassetes and later CDs and digital for 50+ years.
- Hammershaft 5y ago
  Its interesting that we have created a world where the people who build software are often the most skeptical of and aviodant of the software industry.
  - MrMember 5y ago
    I feel like a luddite sometimes. I want to limit as much as possible how many devices I own that have access to the internet. My computer(s), HTPC, phone, game consoles, and that's it. There's no reason anything else ever needs internet access.
    - bozzcl 5y ago
      You’re far from alone. I recently outright blocked all DNS traffic, including known DoH providers, on my network firewall for all my devices except my Pi-Hole. Then, I blocklisted all Google and Facebook domains on my Pi-Hole… except for YouTube’s content servers so I can use Invidious. In fact, I might follow your example and add an outbound allowlist to my firewall. Seems like the next logical step.
    - coldtea 5y ago
      >I feel like a luddite sometimes. Luddites were right in their own way: their point was not against technology in abstract, but about the destruction it brought to their line of work with no alternative offered. But, Luddites aside, being enthusiastic for any application of technology is a sign of the idiot consumer or the naive futurist. The actual technologist knows that some tools are good for X and not for Y use cases, and also knows when to cut down technology (as opposed to add for the sake of it). (Same way we don't add features to our programs for the sake of it, and many features are put there by demand of the marketing team to get more money out of users, not to give them something better).
      - glogla 5y ago
        Many of the Luddites were successful craftsmen. The way I would frame it is that the Luddites weren't against the technology and automation, they were against the how the gains from that increased productivity were share - with 100 % going to the owners and none going to the workers. The reason why people think of them as of "dumb people breaking the machines" is because history is written by the victors.
- dghughes 5y ago
  >If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio... Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.
- userbinator 5y ago
  I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car. The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying. ...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Motorcycles are legal but if you commute and carry your kids around in them 100% of the time you may be choosing poorly. You moved the goalposts from a good choice to legally allowed.
    - Laarlf 5y ago
      You can pick old cars which are easy to fix and barely have any software. Old Volvos come to mind. They are also very safe, not just for their age. If safety is a primary concern you might consider something ridiculously massive like an F350. Those vehicles also don't have a lot of Software and with the weight and the size most modern SUVs with sleeping drivers will simply be consumed.
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        Modern cars crumple so that they absorb more of the energy of the collision sacrificing the car's body for your body. Massive vehicles of the antique era had a horrific safety record. People in fact used to believe that collisions at highway speed were unsurvivable by nature. People who imagine that having the heavier more rigid car renders them safer because their car will just go through the other car leaving them safe misunderstand physics and safety. In the context of current cars classic volves are pretty garbage too. Here is a 90s volvo being absolutely smeared by a renault 10-20 years newer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_H_aZtLl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_H_aZtLl8 See also unsafe at any speed.
- jjav 5y ago
  Same. I will not ever own any car that has network connectivity. So that means older cars only. Oh well. So be it.
  - jawns 5y ago
    I, on the other hand, look forward to the day, probably not for at least 20-30 years from now, when all or virtually all vehicles are autonomous, and they're all constantly communicating with each other. Could you imagine the improvements in efficiency and traffic management? The vast reduction in accidents because someone forgot to use a turn signal or was following too closely? The marvelous freedom it would offer to the disabled?
    - Laarlf 5y ago
      Do you work with software? Because you don't seem to be scared one bit. I don't see this becoming a thing anytime soon. Not just because of how horrible software is and how little it improves. In the last 20 years we barely had any improvements in what cars assist us with. The Mercedes Benz W220 from 1998 had active cruise control. And today modern active cruise control systems barely work better. Some cars can sometimes change lanes for you. But even that is far from good. I look at how bad lane keep assists (which also have been around for over 10 years) detect roads, especially country roads and i don't feel like we will get anything remotely good from "self driving" cars in the next... MANY years.
      - jawns 5y ago
        I think the closer we get to the point where all vehicles are autonomous, the easier it will get. The interim is the hard part. Right now autonomous vehicles have to be able to operate alongside human operators whose ability to communicate their intent is limited to brake lights and turn signals, and there is basically no way to cooperate. Now imagine a world where it's all autonomous vehicles who are constantly communicating intent and can cooperate in marvelous ways, like with orderly zipper merging or intersection management without the need for traffic signals. There will still be a need for computer vision to detect pedestrians, obstacles, and wildlife, but it will be simpler than having to deal with other human operators.
- chrischen 5y ago
  Dang I wish my microwave had good software. All the pre-set modes are crap.
- marsven_422 5y ago
  You have no choice, someone somewhere did a business canvas that showed that turning your car into a software platform will be profitable
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Your microwave will end up as a subscription platform. Services grafted on to various appliances and consumer articles are going to be the norm unless we push back. Hard.
  - jakeva 5y ago
    My microwave will not end up as a subscription platform. Maybe if I have to buy a microwave some day, but I don't know why I would have to do that. My microwave works fine.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Microwaves don't live forever (especially newer ones). At some point the choices will be: [ ] a connected microwave and [ ] no microwave Just like almost all newer cars now have some kind of wlan connection to the factory built in.
      - phs 5y ago
        This twelve inch cast iron skillet, on the other hand, will last forever.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, it likely will (unless you drop it, or quench it). But if you're careful with it it will last longer than anybody reading this. But just like car batteries: cast iron skillets rarely die, but lots of them are murdered.
- o-__-o 5y ago
  > . If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio Every bmw, Mercedes Benz, and every luxury car does this today. Millions of them on the road. And it doesn’t brick the car, just anything in the path of the unapproved device (which guess where your radio sits) But this is to avoid fake parts from being installed in your car.. so catch 22?
marcodiego 5y ago
You don't own your cellphone, you don't own your tv and now you won't own your car too.
- Krisjohn 5y ago
  I own my cellphone, because it doesn't run iOS or Android. I own my TV, because the house's DNS is forced through pihole and the apps can't upgrade unless I want them to. I own my car, because it's the kind with no touch screen, no untouchable black box running it. (I miss my first car, released the same year as the C64.)
- hexo 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure I own my cellphone, same with TV.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Those EULAs are not legally binding in the EU. You do own you cellphone and TV (and apps, movies and music files if the button said Buy). If the US goes down this route the car industry will crash (even more).
thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems. For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story. Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion. Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been happening with John Deere tractors: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-...
- fouric 5y ago
  Yes, but that's a losing game - the manufacturers will continually tighten security until it's infeasible - see how difficult it is to jailbreak current-generation iPhones and game consoles, for instance. The only ways out are social (consumers acting en masse to exert market pressure) or legal (regulation). You can't hack your way around this issue - as the attacker, the strong crypto that exists (and enables things like firmware signing) is not on your side.
  - thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
    Sadly, you are right. One of the themes in "Car Wars" is that laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. The reasons cited for the laws are "for safety", but it seems like a thin veneer over the car manufacturer having complete control of the car's software, and by extension the car itself.
    - atat7024 5y ago
      > laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. Enforcement impossible.
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    But the thing is, those things will be broken in the future. Even if unfeasible now, they will be in future.
whoisthemachine 5y ago
For what it's worth, my 2012 Chevy Volt had a subscription plan for starting my car via a phone app. So the subscription model has already been present for some years. What will be offered via subscription will drastically change however.
fouric 5y ago
This is very, very bad. Music and TV subscriptions? Not great (I want to buy something once and own it), but at least those are luxury purchases. Cars? Not ok - that's critical for me (and many others) to get to my job (bad public transit in the area), groceries, etc. > “You can easily see a major backlash to all this,” said Gartner analyst Michael Ramsay. I wonder how one can maximize that potential backlash, so as to cut this terrible idea off as soon as possible.
- bozzcl 5y ago
  You gotta start small. Boycott. Do not buy cars from companies that do this. Even if they allow you to opt out or they have offerings without these “features”. Then tell your friends and family about it. Hopefully, at least one or two of them will understand or agree. Even if nobody follows your example, you’ve planted the idea in their heads. If you have a blog or social media, write about this. Again, it’s unlikely people will change their minds only because of you, but this will plant the seed of doubt. Over time, this might become big enough to be a political issue. If it affects the driver’s privacy an the car’s safety it definitely can. Then it’s time to call your representatives.
  - akomtu 5y ago
    In theory, we would just send a letter to senators and they would pass a law to stop this greedy nonsense. In practice those senators get generous donations from car manufacturers.
    - bozzcl 5y ago
      That’s why seeding your perspective is important, unfortunately. Build leverage before you try to use your lever.
- akomtu 5y ago
  Precisely because it's so critical, it's a terribly efficient leverage over you, pretty much legalized extortion. Imagine you wake up one morning and your car happily announces that it's updated software overnight and from now on for your safety faceid is required to start the car and an always on driver facing camera will help you to stay focused on the road and arrive safely at your destination no matter where it is. Ah, also, by touching the door handle you agree to the new terms of service. The thing is you have an important appointment in 30 mins.
cblconfederate 5y ago
Wait till you see the NFT licence numbers. I'd actually prefer a leased EV. Battery degrades, customization is impossible and privacy is not very relevant, so why own it if they re going to stuff it with in-app-purchases? The EVs worth owning will be custom made/converted cars.
slackfan 5y ago
"You will own nothing and be happy"
mensetmanusman 5y ago
We will rent everything, and we will love it. https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy-about-it-abb2835bd3d1 https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-an...
- hexo 5y ago
  We certainly will not love it.
  - jppope 5y ago
    correct. We will definitely not love it
- FpUser 5y ago
  The only things I rent currently are Utilities, Internet Access, Standby servers for my business, Auto Insurance and Netflix. No SAAS / PAAS / MyAss etc. So no I will not love any further encroachment and actively resist it.
  - thraway123412 5y ago
    How about a bank account and a credit or debit card tied to it?
    - FpUser 5y ago
      I am not anal and would not put those into the same category as Car As A Service.
- jackdrb 5y ago
  'we will love it' is the expectation that companies hope for, but I cannot imagine permanently renting such essential products (for a significant proportion of people) like cars. Fingers crossed, but realistically one can only expect the worst.
  - 5y ago
crooked-v 5y ago
Tesla's already doing this: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-from-used-cars/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-f... > The dealer, United Traders, bought the car directly from Tesla at an auction on November 15, 2019. At the time of that auction sale, the Model S had Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability options installed, which the original owner had paid a combined $8,000 for, as listed on the Monroney that Tesla gave the dealer. On November 18, Tesla ran an audit of the software in its vehicles, including the Model S now owned by the dealership, and removed Enhanced Autopilot. The automaker did not inform the dealer of the changes to the Model S, so the dealer sold the sedan to Alec on December 20 believing the car contained what was on the Monroney.
agumonkey 5y ago
Smartphone already brought a kind of connection burden, now transport is next.. sociologically it's super weird. Can't wait to submit my new business idea to the next YC round: selling isolation.
- atat7024 5y ago
  So...executive real estate agent?
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    an improved version who ensures sound proof walls
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jti107 5y ago
if this is the case its not going to end well for them.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  You have more faith in the average consumer than I do.
eikenberry 5y ago
IMO the right to repair movement is our best defense against this sort of rent seeking. You can't repair and maintain anything yourself if a subscription is required.
alwayshumans 5y ago
This just feels like the latest in a long line of industries trying to build a recurring revenue model fueled by greed. Looking at the uproar from moves by Circut[1] and others makes me question how out of touch some of these companies are. I think companies need to realise a subscription needs to deliver constant tangible value to the consumer. 1.https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow-cricut-subscription-ploy https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow...
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  This would not have been a problem (or even an option for the company) if the software was open source.
mgarfias 5y ago
Time to buy a ‘72 travel all.
deleted 5y ago
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0xB31B1B 5y ago
I think its totally fine for a car maker to charge for OTA updates in a Saas/subscription model. The reality is that software requires long term maintenance and charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. What I am NOT ok with is charging for normal things that do not need to be OTA updated or are not upgrades, like apple carplay (the example in the article). The way I see this working out is that if I buy a MY 2021 car, I should not have to pay a subscription to maintain the features I bought it with, but if I then want upgrades in subsequent model years, I should pay a monthly fee for those upgrades.
- nightski 5y ago
  If the software in a car requires long term maintenance beyond the extremely rare bug fix update, then it does too much imho. That's the point, keep it very simple. I don't need an entertainment system, maps, games, or any of that crap. Just an aux port or bluetooth with audio output. Maybe an am/fm radio at most.
- falcolas 5y ago
  > charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. No, no, no. I'm purchasing a car for upwards of $30,000 (and it's always more, between dealer fees, the cars just happening to only have the priciest interiors, salesmen and their pushy pitches, interest on loans, etc.); they don't need another $5 a month for fucking software updates. They can mange it today just fine (my car desires a wi-fi connection so it can get these updates), they're just being greedy if they charge.
  - tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
    All the manufacturers will seek innovative ways to milk users, and whenever any of them succeeds, all the rest will follow suit.
chiefalchemist 5y ago
My car? I no longer want to own and maintain a car. I want ubiquitous availability of transportation. On demand. But I don't necessarily want Uber / Lyft either. I don't mind driving. As it is, my car lost value the day I drove it off the lot. Most of the time it sits doing nothing at all, sans getting older and losing more value. If ever there was a life pain that screams subscription + pay as you go it's personal transportation.
- ipaddr 5y ago
  That's a zipcar or similiar. Rent by the hour. It seemed attractive but drawback is you have to get to a free car first.
  - chiefalchemist 5y ago
    That's where autonomous comes in. If the car can self-drive to me that's significant. The alternative is the subscription includes $X in Uber / Lyft per month. That is, I reserve a vehicle and the service handles the rest.
teeray 5y ago
I just want a dumb radio with wireless CarPlay. I want to bring the smarts to the car. It shouldn’t have smarts of its own.
metalman 5y ago
I de-computered my older mechanical diesel,led lights all round,modifications to the wireing and removed the alternator and added solar panels. And there are no beeps in my house, mostly older equipment. Also have managed my online life by going wireless with two phones,#1 has lots of data and is de-guggled doesnt send or recieve texts and has no social media,etc. #2 has no data and is wide open ,accessing the internet by wifi from phone number 1 The idea of a car that beeps and wimpers and whines for handouts gives me the cold grue and shudders.
okareaman 5y ago
People buy apps and pay for upgrades to extend the capabilities of their phones. I don't see how this is different. Maybe they should just call them apps for cars.
- cblconfederate 5y ago
  > buy apps and pay for upgrades updates are usually shoved in with no alternative, and they often lead to the need for further purchases down the line
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tibbydudeza 5y ago
To unlock the fuel efficent 6th gear - pay us x $$$ per month.
anfilt 5y ago
How about big NO!
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.is/bEiqn https://archive.is/bEiqn
fukmbas 5y ago
Won't buy em.
analog31 5y ago
I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I certainly don't want to be held hostage by my car. On the other hand, a pricing model that makes the sale price cheaper and loads more of the profit into optional add-ons is great for me. So long as I can get from A to B, I'm happy with zero options and a cheaper car. My family recently got a new car, and as part of the sale, the dealer activated trial subscriptions for all sorts of things, blah blah this, blah blah that. I don't even remember. I do like some of the software features, but they're the ones that are not by subscription, such as the thing that keeps me from driving off a cliff. I'm not getting any younger, and don't mind a little bit of help.
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  The problem with optional add ons is that greed eventually makes even necessary ones optional, or worse, add ons with subscription and remote kill switches. A car is a huge investment for many. It is better to own one outright than rent it out.
  - analog31 5y ago
    I'm with you there. Hopefully legislation will keep up.
  - rdtwo 5y ago
    Remember when DLC was just house armor? Now it’s the entire game
dartharva 5y ago
So you have to keep paying regular subscription fees to use the full capabilities of your car? LOL sure, I can totally see how that's going to work out. First off, the companies daft enough to try this without enough subtlety would get quickly knocked off the market, and if it doesn't naturally die out, expect a huge Jailbreaking community to arise in the near future. Either way paywalling critical utilities from a car will never work.
gnicholas 5y ago
I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways. I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other periodic) updates, even though presumably it would be possible to improve performance without upgrading the hardware. Why do they do this? Because their business model is to keep selling/leasing new cars. They don't want you to have the newest tech on your older car. If they had subscriptions for features like these, it would give them a different incentive, which could be good in some cases. It might still be bad on balance (like if they charged huge amounts for these features), but there could be some significant upsides.
- Naac 5y ago
  I think you're putting way too much faith in these companies. Just going off of your example, they're most likely just going to provide support for 2 years ( if that ), and then say "sorry, the newest version of lane keep assist isn't available for your model". A la Apple.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    We'd be lucky if auto manufacturers supported cars with updates as long as Apple supports hardware (5 years+ in some cases). It'll be more like Android hardware support - you get the version your car shipped with and maybe the next one.
  - gnicholas 5y ago
    I’d certainly not trust them right out of the gate. But after several years of seeing their practices, I could have a decent expectation of what would be supported and for how long.
  - Toutouxc 5y ago
    Macs from 2012 got the latest security update four days ago. Macs from 2013 are supported by the newest macOS. iPhones and iPads from 2013 got the latest security update a month ago. iPhones and iPads from 2015 and 2014 respectively are supported by the latest iOS and iPadOS. Classic Apple, right?
rektide 5y ago
still super super super wondering what we do with Android Auto in 4 years, in 5 years. will car manufacturer's have replacement brains, such that the car can get security updates? will we just keep running Linux 4.12 in the year 2038?
- Infinitesimus 5y ago
  Android Auto will remain crippled because: 1. It requires some level of support from the car makers and they typically don't make significant functionality changes in software updates (eg: my car as a wide-screen aspect ratio but Android Auto displays in a smaller portion. The car probably needs an update to fix that but it's been 1.5 years so that's not gonna happen.) 2. Car makers do not want to give Google even more data and will lobby/restrict access as much as needed so theh control user data and sell it themselves to profit. CarPlay has a better shot since Apple can strong-arm people into doing what they want but Google is not in that position position car makers since everyone saw what happened to Android OEMs battling to differentiate.
cinntaile 5y ago
This future is already starting to play out in certain countries in Europe. Total Car Ownership is quite a bit more expensive than in the US and for people living in a city this seems like a fairly obvious cause and effect development.
kwyjobojoe 5y ago
Can't wait for the deaths during bushfires when the phone network is down but your car won't start because it's time to check the licensing server. There have already been examples where hire cars are stuck in parking garages because of no signal to reach their servers.
Dah00n 5y ago
Software updates require approval in the EU just like hardware changes if it significantly changes the car. Tesla is already on thin (or rather close to nonexistent) ice by just updating. This won't be allowed in the EU unless new laws are made (and I personally doubt it will be allowed and good riddance!).
olivermarks 5y ago
Now is the right time to buy a pre internet car and relevant consumables (belts, alternator, starter etc) of your choice before this becomes an issue. So long as you keep the suspension in good shape, and maintain the drive train properly you will be in good shape to avoid the rentier surveillance culture looming.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- GoToRO 5y ago
  Buy a Dacia. In the latest models they have an official phone holder. As in: you can make your car as smart or as dumb as you want.
sebyx07 5y ago
Remember when you didn't have to crack your car to drive it?
SuchAnonMuchWow 5y ago
Tangentially: does anybody knows good dumb all-electric cars ?
- GoToRO 5y ago
  Dacia Spring https://youtu.be/zD8NUtn5BGE https://youtu.be/zD8NUtn5BGE
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    It's an open question about how good it is.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
apatheticonion 5y ago
Living in a city and having street-parked "rent-a-car" vehicles for infrequent trips while using trains to get to work is an incredible lifestyle. I went camping recently, so I rented a 4x4 for a few days. I needed to pick up family from the airport, I'll just rent a car for a few hours. Want to go for a hike up north, rent a car for a day. All I have to do is Lime-style, book one on the app, tap my car on the windshield to unlock and it's mine. Parking? No problem, the government has designated parking spots for rideshare vehicles. It could be cheaper, but with my frequency of use, it's cheaper than owning a car.
- adreamingsoul 5y ago
  This. Wife and I sold both our cars and moved to Oslo. We can get almost anywhere with public transportation and rent a car/van when we need to move stuff or get away to the cabin.
- volta83 5y ago
  In my city I have lived through multiple waves of this model. The main drawback is that it requires a bit of planning: on the weekends, everybody wants a car. I can count with one finger the companies that have survived multiple waves of this model over the last 15 years. They have "poor" cars, but enough of them, parked in "centralized" locations to ease maintainance, but enough of these locations spread out, great prices for a day, a weekend, etc. Most other companies that tried this have ended up defaulting the moment they had to repair their first wave of cars. The ones that still "survive" have gone through defaults, mergers, and have "infinite" amounts of money (e.g. owned by car manufacturers that use them as a way to get people "try" their cars as opposed to a "profitable" business). These are kind of "gimmicks" that you use when you pick somebody from the airport to show them around in a nice car. For everyday stuff, these are expensive enough for competing with Uber, and at that point, I just take a Uber. For one day trips they are also expensive enough that, if you take 3 days per month, owning a cheap car is actually cheaper and more practical than using these....
- xuki 5y ago
  For this to work you need a pretty good public transportation system. In the US for example, I don't know of any city other than NYC that have that kind of infrastructure.
GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago
1000% don’t want a car subscription, that’s called a lease.
michalu 5y ago
A friend of mine bought new BMW and the whole thing just shut down half way into the journey, he said he was happy he could get out of it. The more complexity the higher the chance of failure. If you're like me you just want a car that get's you from point A to point B reliably and safely. You're probably thinking they will always be an option for a straightforward mechanical machine. But that may not be the case. Regulators are increasing demands for more and more electronics and a lot of that is driven (I assume) by car industry lobby. Essentially, the best thing a car industry can achieve is to turn your car into a computer or iphone. This way they can release new models every year and increase the the pressure to buy more. Right now a 20yo car is still good to drive around and not that much has improved, but what are you going to do it the new software update is no longer compatible with your car? :) And obviously, more higher complexity.higher failure means more profits on component sales.
- excuses_ 5y ago
  The only thing that constantly improves and is really worth considering is safety. I am not even saying about active safety features but the passive ones. They are also in constant development.
  - kqr 5y ago
    But these are sometimes making it safer for the occupants at the expense of the rest of the environment (think smaller windows and fatter A pillars making children harder to see, or strengthened soundproofing making children harder to hear.)
    - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
      But are children harder to see than from older cars? It isn't like the windows were huge nor the beams small. Are children really harder to hear? Old cars were louder. How much sound did they cover up just with noise? How much more could you hear in an old car compared to a modern electric car?
    - Karsteski 5y ago
at_a_remove 5y ago
You think this is interesting, wait until the CEO of your car subscription company wakes up in a bad mood and decides to "cancel" your car. That whole "In the future, you will own nothing and you will be happy" thing is going to keep you gloriously in-line and silent when not.
livinginfear 5y ago
I'm finding it increasingly difficult to avoid purchasing, and therefore tying myself to, 'connected' platforms. I recently decided to purchase a new washing machine. It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. I know from other discussions on this forum around so-called 'smart' televisions[1][2] that simply not connecting the device to your home wi-fi network, or implementing DNS filtering measures such as a PiHole, may not be effective ways to restrict the access of these devices. Not to mention the various security implications of giving these devices access to your network. The idea of a car having the same connectivity is just a minefield of privacy, security and generally anti-consumer issues. I am not optimistic either that pushback against such concerns will force manufacturers to amend these practices. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480
- thraway123412 5y ago
  I think legislation is the only way to fix this :( Require owner's/user's consent to connect. If no consent, no connect. Device's offline capabilities must still work and it must not nag you or otherwise use dark patterns to force a consent out of you. That would be a relatively minor extension to gdpr.
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  > It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. As long as you don’t have to connect it… I couldn’t find a decent toothbrush that didn’t have Bluetooth, but it doesn’t matter, I just ignore it.
  - m463 5y ago
    I was looking for a coffee mug that could keep my coffee warm. I saw one in the store - it would keep the coffee heated and... bluetooth + app required. gah.
amelius 5y ago
"Tesla is updating your software. Please don't stop the car while your software update is in progress."
pabs3 5y ago
So when will we get a car running a user-installed open source operating system like postmarketOS for smartphones?
mk89 5y ago
Imagine the fun when you give gas and the display shows that your subscription can only reach 100km/h, if you want to go faster, please subscribe to the PRO subscription :) This is/was inevitable. I really think that we will be able to buy a car whose basic features can be locked/unlocked on subscription, and I am not talking about fancy features, but basic ones like speed, types of brakes, etc. It might not be a bad idea to reduce the price of a car considering you produce only one type and customize it at "runtime". And BTW, it's somehow already the case. I bought a Ford with 100 HP and the seller told me that with "some external help" I can get up to 125HP because the engine is the same as the one for the 125HP model. I was like "what the hell?". Of course the downside is that if you get into a bad accident and the insurance finds out, you're on your own. But that's another story. A pay as you go model would also be fun. The more you press the pedals the more you pay:)
stunt 5y ago
Thanks, but no thanks.
bob1029 5y ago
Cars have been a software platform for well over a decade. We've been cursed with horrendous UX, such as the electronic throttle body and steering, since the late 2000s. Every time someone puts a computer between the user and the real world is an opportunity to extract more control and revenue from the user. The incentives to make your life experience shitty are far in excess of the incentives to make it enjoyable.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rkhassen9 5y ago
Noooooooooo
rkhassen9 5y ago
Nooooooo
rkhassen9 5y ago
When are we going to create a world we actually want to live in, rather than one that profits a tiny minority at the expense of .... life?

131 points by sleepyshift 5y ago

I don't want my car to be a software platform. I want it to be like my microwave. It might have software, but software is only incidental to its operation. I do not want to tweet from my microwave. I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I don't care what I have to do to attain that. If that means replacing the radio. I will do it. If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio, I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car.

lostlogin 5y ago
> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. I know it’s what you want but is it preventable? What’s the difference when today there are LED screens across the intersection you are trying to navigate that are intensely bright and displaying moving images? I’d argue that dimmer images in the car would be less distracting. However we appear on track to get both these dismal options. I won’t be buying a car with build in advertising, but given the frequency I change cars, this isn’t really any change.
- fridif 5y ago
  Yes, it is preventable if you buy a car that doesn't have it inside of it. As long as companies (or people) are allowed/able to make cars without ads in them, then it will be possible. If the government mandates, or market conditions dictate (due to monopolies or insufficient demand/profit incentive), that ads will be in cars, then it will not be possible, at least for new cars.
- obviouslynotme 5y ago
  It has nothing to do with flashing images, which I do not tolerate in my car either. It has to do with ads themselves, which have always walked the line between interactivity and malware. I don't want someone to be able to run arbitrary code on my car for $0.0004. No way. Could you imagine ransomware on your CAR? While you are driving in it?? No thank you.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    Cars should not be connected to internet, period. If you want some component to be able to be part of the car and connected, it should be hardware that is physically not linked to the car system itself in any way. And you should not be able to issue OTA without some manual hardware operation, like turning a key somewhere that is far from the wheel.
sz4kerto 5y ago
> I want it to be like my microwave. Yes. Plus: I want it to be like a simple microwave that does what I need: heats for a certain amount of time at a certain power level. 2 physical knobs.
- bombela 5y ago
  Yes. Definitively not like my microwave. My microwave has not only the worst interface. But it also lags. The polling rate of the capacitive touche buttons is too low. And any action also takes a second to validate. It's horrendous. Give me back my late grandma microwave. Two knobs. Nothing more.
  - fooblat 5y ago
    After much research I purchased a Samsung MWF300G[0] a modern microwave with only 2 dials. Used daily for 5 years and I love it. 0. https://www.samsung.com/levant/microwave-ovens/solo/mwf300g-k3050/ https://www.samsung.com/levant/microwave-ovens/solo/mwf300g-...
    - thraway123412 5y ago
      Does yours beep if you don't open the lid in a minute after it turns off? Mine does and that is super annoying. Annoying enough that I'm thinking of removing the buzzer or just buying another microwave. I do like the simple dual dial design though.
- tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
  I'm willing to go further. My parents' microwave has a single knob, and mine has two but I have never used it at something other than "High".
- kstenerud 5y ago
  I bought an industrial microwave a number of years ago just for this feature: Its controls consist of a single dial: how long to cook for. Also, in an industrial microwave the magnetron itself rotates, so there's no silly rotating plate business. Just put food in, turn the dial, take food out, and clean up is a snap.
tshaddox 5y ago
The microwave analogy is tricky, because those are generally not worth repairing (or even doing routine maintenance to prolong life) and are cheap and reliable enough that you wouldn’t want to pay a subscription for them unless it was a very cheap subscription. I’d love to have that situation for a car, but I don’t think it’s realistic without moving to a subscription model.
Traster 5y ago
The problem is that you're not going to have this choice. You'll be that guy insisting he wants a phone that's thicker but has better battery life - no manufacturer cares what you want because they have to operate at a scale where they can't cater for niches.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  I'm not so sure. Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right. The car market seems way different than the phone market. It's not an information platform, it moves matter. It's not virtual, it's real. It's not luxury like the phone used to be, people life depends on it already. It's not a free market, but heavily regulated. And a car is very, very expensive. Second hand is a huge thing. You don't replace your car every 2 years. The market for maintenance and service is it's own industry, and the state is deep in it. Not to mention the the huge quantity of material you need just to build one car. Finally, if a car fails, a BSOD becomes quite literal.
  - AmericanChopper 5y ago
    > Look at the European market: manual gears everywhere. Look at the UK, South African and Autraslian market: the car is inversed, with the wheel on the right. These aren’t really great examples of marketing to a niche. Automatic transmissions cost more money, so manuals are more popular than they are in the US in every country that has less disposable income than the US. The primary reason it’s so easy to get a left hand drive car in Australia is because the UK and Japan drive on the left.
    - fomine3 5y ago
      > in every country that has less disposable income than the US So you argue almost all country prefer manuals? It's not true at least in Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_capita_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disposable_household_and_per_c...
radioooooo 5y ago
> I do not want ads in traffic. This is non-negotiable for safety reasons alone. LMAO! OK, who's gonna tell him about the ads on the radio?
- caddywompus 5y ago
  Radio ads can: - be turned off by turning off the radio - are not inherent to the operation of the vehicle
- obviouslynotme 5y ago
  Classic radio is down-only. It goes through hardware for demodulation and amplification. I can turn a classic radio off. How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention? How long until someone uses the radio to ransomware your car using a remote code execution vulnerability?
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    > How long will it be until there is an ad that makes it confusing how to dismiss it and uses a police siren to get your attention? When I was in high school, the local radio station played a siren as part of the intro to their traffic update segment. Being a high schooler, I naturally had my volume cranked up pretty high - leading to at least a once-a-week near-swerve on my way to school as the segment began.
- tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
  Never understood people complaining of radio ads until I got to hear what American radio is like. They legit play ads after almost every song. Yikes!
- coldtea 5y ago
  LMAO fail. Radio is optional as you can switch it off at any time, change the volume, is not imposed by the manufacturer, and you had the option to listen to your own cassetes and later CDs and digital for 50+ years.
Hammershaft 5y ago
Its interesting that we have created a world where the people who build software are often the most skeptical of and aviodant of the software industry.
- MrMember 5y ago
  I feel like a luddite sometimes. I want to limit as much as possible how many devices I own that have access to the internet. My computer(s), HTPC, phone, game consoles, and that's it. There's no reason anything else ever needs internet access.
  - bozzcl 5y ago
    You’re far from alone. I recently outright blocked all DNS traffic, including known DoH providers, on my network firewall for all my devices except my Pi-Hole. Then, I blocklisted all Google and Facebook domains on my Pi-Hole… except for YouTube’s content servers so I can use Invidious. In fact, I might follow your example and add an outbound allowlist to my firewall. Seems like the next logical step.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >I feel like a luddite sometimes. Luddites were right in their own way: their point was not against technology in abstract, but about the destruction it brought to their line of work with no alternative offered. But, Luddites aside, being enthusiastic for any application of technology is a sign of the idiot consumer or the naive futurist. The actual technologist knows that some tools are good for X and not for Y use cases, and also knows when to cut down technology (as opposed to add for the sake of it). (Same way we don't add features to our programs for the sake of it, and many features are put there by demand of the marketing team to get more money out of users, not to give them something better).
    - glogla 5y ago
      Many of the Luddites were successful craftsmen. The way I would frame it is that the Luddites weren't against the technology and automation, they were against the how the gains from that increased productivity were share - with 100 % going to the owners and none going to the workers. The reason why people think of them as of "dumb people breaking the machines" is because history is written by the victors.
dghughes 5y ago
>If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio... Farmers equipment is being bricked when they try to repair their multi-$100K machinery. It's the food we all eat that is at risk over some software update or a farmer had to perform necessary repairs by swapping a tractor's ECU.
userbinator 5y ago
I will go rebuild some grandfathered antique car. The classic car community continues to thrive and the aftermarket has plenty of parts available. My daily driver (perhaps not so daily for the past year or so...) doesn't need any software to start and drive, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't have the fuel efficiency or cleanliness of a modern car, but I guess that's just the cost of freedom and comfort for which I don't mind paying. ...and every time someone brings up the "safety" argument, I tell them that motorcycles are still legal.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Motorcycles are legal but if you commute and carry your kids around in them 100% of the time you may be choosing poorly. You moved the goalposts from a good choice to legally allowed.
  - Laarlf 5y ago
    You can pick old cars which are easy to fix and barely have any software. Old Volvos come to mind. They are also very safe, not just for their age. If safety is a primary concern you might consider something ridiculously massive like an F350. Those vehicles also don't have a lot of Software and with the weight and the size most modern SUVs with sleeping drivers will simply be consumed.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      Modern cars crumple so that they absorb more of the energy of the collision sacrificing the car's body for your body. Massive vehicles of the antique era had a horrific safety record. People in fact used to believe that collisions at highway speed were unsurvivable by nature. People who imagine that having the heavier more rigid car renders them safer because their car will just go through the other car leaving them safe misunderstand physics and safety. In the context of current cars classic volves are pretty garbage too. Here is a 90s volvo being absolutely smeared by a renault 10-20 years newer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_H_aZtLl8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7_H_aZtLl8 See also unsafe at any speed.
jjav 5y ago
Same. I will not ever own any car that has network connectivity. So that means older cars only. Oh well. So be it.
- jawns 5y ago
  I, on the other hand, look forward to the day, probably not for at least 20-30 years from now, when all or virtually all vehicles are autonomous, and they're all constantly communicating with each other. Could you imagine the improvements in efficiency and traffic management? The vast reduction in accidents because someone forgot to use a turn signal or was following too closely? The marvelous freedom it would offer to the disabled?
  - Laarlf 5y ago
    Do you work with software? Because you don't seem to be scared one bit. I don't see this becoming a thing anytime soon. Not just because of how horrible software is and how little it improves. In the last 20 years we barely had any improvements in what cars assist us with. The Mercedes Benz W220 from 1998 had active cruise control. And today modern active cruise control systems barely work better. Some cars can sometimes change lanes for you. But even that is far from good. I look at how bad lane keep assists (which also have been around for over 10 years) detect roads, especially country roads and i don't feel like we will get anything remotely good from "self driving" cars in the next... MANY years.
    - jawns 5y ago
      I think the closer we get to the point where all vehicles are autonomous, the easier it will get. The interim is the hard part. Right now autonomous vehicles have to be able to operate alongside human operators whose ability to communicate their intent is limited to brake lights and turn signals, and there is basically no way to cooperate. Now imagine a world where it's all autonomous vehicles who are constantly communicating intent and can cooperate in marvelous ways, like with orderly zipper merging or intersection management without the need for traffic signals. There will still be a need for computer vision to detect pedestrians, obstacles, and wildlife, but it will be simpler than having to deal with other human operators.
chrischen 5y ago
Dang I wish my microwave had good software. All the pre-set modes are crap.
marsven_422 5y ago
You have no choice, someone somewhere did a business canvas that showed that turning your car into a software platform will be profitable
jacquesm 5y ago
Your microwave will end up as a subscription platform. Services grafted on to various appliances and consumer articles are going to be the norm unless we push back. Hard.
- jakeva 5y ago
  My microwave will not end up as a subscription platform. Maybe if I have to buy a microwave some day, but I don't know why I would have to do that. My microwave works fine.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Microwaves don't live forever (especially newer ones). At some point the choices will be: [ ] a connected microwave and [ ] no microwave Just like almost all newer cars now have some kind of wlan connection to the factory built in.
    - phs 5y ago
      This twelve inch cast iron skillet, on the other hand, will last forever.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Yes, it likely will (unless you drop it, or quench it). But if you're careful with it it will last longer than anybody reading this. But just like car batteries: cast iron skillets rarely die, but lots of them are murdered.
o-__-o 5y ago
> . If you brick my car if I don't have a Manufacturer Approved radio Every bmw, Mercedes Benz, and every luxury car does this today. Millions of them on the road. And it doesn’t brick the car, just anything in the path of the unapproved device (which guess where your radio sits) But this is to avoid fake parts from being installed in your car.. so catch 22?

marcodiego 5y ago

You don't own your cellphone, you don't own your tv and now you won't own your car too.

Krisjohn 5y ago
I own my cellphone, because it doesn't run iOS or Android. I own my TV, because the house's DNS is forced through pihole and the apps can't upgrade unless I want them to. I own my car, because it's the kind with no touch screen, no untouchable black box running it. (I miss my first car, released the same year as the C64.)
hexo 5y ago
I'm pretty sure I own my cellphone, same with TV.
Dah00n 5y ago
Those EULAs are not legally binding in the EU. You do own you cellphone and TV (and apps, movies and music files if the button said Buy). If the US goes down this route the car industry will crash (even more).

thesuperbigfrog 5y ago

It is only a matter of time before there are jailbreaks and free / open source car operating systems. For related 'food for thought', see Cory Doctorow's "Car Wars" which combines car software hacking with self-driving vehicles for a unique near-future sci-fi story. Edit: downvotes? Instead, you could respond with why you disagree and we can have a discussion. Do you think there will not be jailbreaks? It has been happening with John Deere tractors: https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-are-hacking-their-tractors-with-ukrainian-firmware https://www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmers-...

fouric 5y ago
Yes, but that's a losing game - the manufacturers will continually tighten security until it's infeasible - see how difficult it is to jailbreak current-generation iPhones and game consoles, for instance. The only ways out are social (consumers acting en masse to exert market pressure) or legal (regulation). You can't hack your way around this issue - as the attacker, the strong crypto that exists (and enables things like firmware signing) is not on your side.
- thesuperbigfrog 5y ago
  Sadly, you are right. One of the themes in "Car Wars" is that laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. The reasons cited for the laws are "for safety", but it seems like a thin veneer over the car manufacturer having complete control of the car's software, and by extension the car itself.
  - atat7024 5y ago
    > laws are created which make it illegal to run unapproved software on the self-driving cars. Enforcement impossible.
- Ygg2 5y ago
  But the thing is, those things will be broken in the future. Even if unfeasible now, they will be in future.

whoisthemachine 5y ago

For what it's worth, my 2012 Chevy Volt had a subscription plan for starting my car via a phone app. So the subscription model has already been present for some years. What will be offered via subscription will drastically change however.

fouric 5y ago

This is very, very bad. Music and TV subscriptions? Not great (I want to buy something once and own it), but at least those are luxury purchases. Cars? Not ok - that's critical for me (and many others) to get to my job (bad public transit in the area), groceries, etc. > “You can easily see a major backlash to all this,” said Gartner analyst Michael Ramsay. I wonder how one can maximize that potential backlash, so as to cut this terrible idea off as soon as possible.

bozzcl 5y ago
You gotta start small. Boycott. Do not buy cars from companies that do this. Even if they allow you to opt out or they have offerings without these “features”. Then tell your friends and family about it. Hopefully, at least one or two of them will understand or agree. Even if nobody follows your example, you’ve planted the idea in their heads. If you have a blog or social media, write about this. Again, it’s unlikely people will change their minds only because of you, but this will plant the seed of doubt. Over time, this might become big enough to be a political issue. If it affects the driver’s privacy an the car’s safety it definitely can. Then it’s time to call your representatives.
- akomtu 5y ago
  In theory, we would just send a letter to senators and they would pass a law to stop this greedy nonsense. In practice those senators get generous donations from car manufacturers.
  - bozzcl 5y ago
    That’s why seeding your perspective is important, unfortunately. Build leverage before you try to use your lever.
akomtu 5y ago
Precisely because it's so critical, it's a terribly efficient leverage over you, pretty much legalized extortion. Imagine you wake up one morning and your car happily announces that it's updated software overnight and from now on for your safety faceid is required to start the car and an always on driver facing camera will help you to stay focused on the road and arrive safely at your destination no matter where it is. Ah, also, by touching the door handle you agree to the new terms of service. The thing is you have an important appointment in 30 mins.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Wait till you see the NFT licence numbers. I'd actually prefer a leased EV. Battery degrades, customization is impossible and privacy is not very relevant, so why own it if they re going to stuff it with in-app-purchases? The EVs worth owning will be custom made/converted cars.

slackfan 5y ago

"You will own nothing and be happy"

mensetmanusman 5y ago

We will rent everything, and we will love it. https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-and-be-happy-about-it-abb2835bd3d1 https://medium.com/illumination/in-2030-youll-own-nothing-an...

hexo 5y ago
We certainly will not love it.
- jppope 5y ago
  correct. We will definitely not love it
FpUser 5y ago
The only things I rent currently are Utilities, Internet Access, Standby servers for my business, Auto Insurance and Netflix. No SAAS / PAAS / MyAss etc. So no I will not love any further encroachment and actively resist it.
- thraway123412 5y ago
  How about a bank account and a credit or debit card tied to it?
  - FpUser 5y ago
    I am not anal and would not put those into the same category as Car As A Service.
jackdrb 5y ago
'we will love it' is the expectation that companies hope for, but I cannot imagine permanently renting such essential products (for a significant proportion of people) like cars. Fingers crossed, but realistically one can only expect the worst.
- 5y ago

crooked-v 5y ago

Tesla's already doing this: https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-from-used-cars/ https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/23/tesla-removing-content-f... > The dealer, United Traders, bought the car directly from Tesla at an auction on November 15, 2019. At the time of that auction sale, the Model S had Enhanced Autopilot and Full Self Driving Capability options installed, which the original owner had paid a combined $8,000 for, as listed on the Monroney that Tesla gave the dealer. On November 18, Tesla ran an audit of the software in its vehicles, including the Model S now owned by the dealership, and removed Enhanced Autopilot. The automaker did not inform the dealer of the changes to the Model S, so the dealer sold the sedan to Alec on December 20 believing the car contained what was on the Monroney.

agumonkey 5y ago

Smartphone already brought a kind of connection burden, now transport is next.. sociologically it's super weird. Can't wait to submit my new business idea to the next YC round: selling isolation.

atat7024 5y ago
So...executive real estate agent?
- agumonkey 5y ago
  an improved version who ensures sound proof walls
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jti107 5y ago

if this is the case its not going to end well for them.

brokenmachine 5y ago
You have more faith in the average consumer than I do.

eikenberry 5y ago

IMO the right to repair movement is our best defense against this sort of rent seeking. You can't repair and maintain anything yourself if a subscription is required.

alwayshumans 5y ago

This just feels like the latest in a long line of industries trying to build a recurring revenue model fueled by greed. Looking at the uproar from moves by Circut[1] and others makes me question how out of touch some of these companies are. I think companies need to realise a subscription needs to deliver constant tangible value to the consumer. 1.https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow-cricut-subscription-ploy https://connpirg.org/blogs/blog/usp/angry-crafting-moms-blow...

BlueTemplar 5y ago
This would not have been a problem (or even an option for the company) if the software was open source.

mgarfias 5y ago

Time to buy a ‘72 travel all.

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0xB31B1B 5y ago

I think its totally fine for a car maker to charge for OTA updates in a Saas/subscription model. The reality is that software requires long term maintenance and charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. What I am NOT ok with is charging for normal things that do not need to be OTA updated or are not upgrades, like apple carplay (the example in the article). The way I see this working out is that if I buy a MY 2021 car, I should not have to pay a subscription to maintain the features I bought it with, but if I then want upgrades in subsequent model years, I should pay a monthly fee for those upgrades.

nightski 5y ago
If the software in a car requires long term maintenance beyond the extremely rare bug fix update, then it does too much imho. That's the point, keep it very simple. I don't need an entertainment system, maps, games, or any of that crap. Just an aux port or bluetooth with audio output. Maybe an am/fm radio at most.
falcolas 5y ago
> charging subscriptions is the only way to get a lot of the features to work out for the life time of the car. No, no, no. I'm purchasing a car for upwards of $30,000 (and it's always more, between dealer fees, the cars just happening to only have the priciest interiors, salesmen and their pushy pitches, interest on loans, etc.); they don't need another $5 a month for fucking software updates. They can mange it today just fine (my car desires a wi-fi connection so it can get these updates), they're just being greedy if they charge.
- tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
  All the manufacturers will seek innovative ways to milk users, and whenever any of them succeeds, all the rest will follow suit.

chiefalchemist 5y ago

My car? I no longer want to own and maintain a car. I want ubiquitous availability of transportation. On demand. But I don't necessarily want Uber / Lyft either. I don't mind driving. As it is, my car lost value the day I drove it off the lot. Most of the time it sits doing nothing at all, sans getting older and losing more value. If ever there was a life pain that screams subscription + pay as you go it's personal transportation.

ipaddr 5y ago
That's a zipcar or similiar. Rent by the hour. It seemed attractive but drawback is you have to get to a free car first.
- chiefalchemist 5y ago
  That's where autonomous comes in. If the car can self-drive to me that's significant. The alternative is the subscription includes $X in Uber / Lyft per month. That is, I reserve a vehicle and the service handles the rest.

teeray 5y ago

I just want a dumb radio with wireless CarPlay. I want to bring the smarts to the car. It shouldn’t have smarts of its own.

metalman 5y ago

I de-computered my older mechanical diesel,led lights all round,modifications to the wireing and removed the alternator and added solar panels. And there are no beeps in my house, mostly older equipment. Also have managed my online life by going wireless with two phones,#1 has lots of data and is de-guggled doesnt send or recieve texts and has no social media,etc. #2 has no data and is wide open ,accessing the internet by wifi from phone number 1 The idea of a car that beeps and wimpers and whines for handouts gives me the cold grue and shudders.

okareaman 5y ago

People buy apps and pay for upgrades to extend the capabilities of their phones. I don't see how this is different. Maybe they should just call them apps for cars.

cblconfederate 5y ago
> buy apps and pay for upgrades updates are usually shoved in with no alternative, and they often lead to the need for further purchases down the line

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tibbydudeza 5y ago

To unlock the fuel efficent 6th gear - pay us x $$$ per month.

anfilt 5y ago

How about big NO!

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.is/bEiqn https://archive.is/bEiqn

fukmbas 5y ago

Won't buy em.

analog31 5y ago

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, I certainly don't want to be held hostage by my car. On the other hand, a pricing model that makes the sale price cheaper and loads more of the profit into optional add-ons is great for me. So long as I can get from A to B, I'm happy with zero options and a cheaper car. My family recently got a new car, and as part of the sale, the dealer activated trial subscriptions for all sorts of things, blah blah this, blah blah that. I don't even remember. I do like some of the software features, but they're the ones that are not by subscription, such as the thing that keeps me from driving off a cliff. I'm not getting any younger, and don't mind a little bit of help.

kumarvvr 5y ago
The problem with optional add ons is that greed eventually makes even necessary ones optional, or worse, add ons with subscription and remote kill switches. A car is a huge investment for many. It is better to own one outright than rent it out.
- analog31 5y ago
  I'm with you there. Hopefully legislation will keep up.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  Remember when DLC was just house armor? Now it’s the entire game

dartharva 5y ago

So you have to keep paying regular subscription fees to use the full capabilities of your car? LOL sure, I can totally see how that's going to work out. First off, the companies daft enough to try this without enough subtlety would get quickly knocked off the market, and if it doesn't naturally die out, expect a huge Jailbreaking community to arise in the near future. Either way paywalling critical utilities from a car will never work.

gnicholas 5y ago

I hate subscriptions as much as the next guy, but I also see the flip side of this coin: the legacy auto companies don't have OTA updates, and this affects their incentives in negative ways. I have considered getting a Subaru Outback, a Toyota RAV4, and a Honda CR-V. All of them have 'lane-centering' features, but none of them are good at present. And none of the companies say that they will allow OTA (or any other periodic) updates, even though presumably it would be possible to improve performance without upgrading the hardware. Why do they do this? Because their business model is to keep selling/leasing new cars. They don't want you to have the newest tech on your older car. If they had subscriptions for features like these, it would give them a different incentive, which could be good in some cases. It might still be bad on balance (like if they charged huge amounts for these features), but there could be some significant upsides.

Naac 5y ago
I think you're putting way too much faith in these companies. Just going off of your example, they're most likely just going to provide support for 2 years ( if that ), and then say "sorry, the newest version of lane keep assist isn't available for your model". A la Apple.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  We'd be lucky if auto manufacturers supported cars with updates as long as Apple supports hardware (5 years+ in some cases). It'll be more like Android hardware support - you get the version your car shipped with and maybe the next one.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  I’d certainly not trust them right out of the gate. But after several years of seeing their practices, I could have a decent expectation of what would be supported and for how long.
- Toutouxc 5y ago
  Macs from 2012 got the latest security update four days ago. Macs from 2013 are supported by the newest macOS. iPhones and iPads from 2013 got the latest security update a month ago. iPhones and iPads from 2015 and 2014 respectively are supported by the latest iOS and iPadOS. Classic Apple, right?

rektide 5y ago

still super super super wondering what we do with Android Auto in 4 years, in 5 years. will car manufacturer's have replacement brains, such that the car can get security updates? will we just keep running Linux 4.12 in the year 2038?

Infinitesimus 5y ago
Android Auto will remain crippled because: 1. It requires some level of support from the car makers and they typically don't make significant functionality changes in software updates (eg: my car as a wide-screen aspect ratio but Android Auto displays in a smaller portion. The car probably needs an update to fix that but it's been 1.5 years so that's not gonna happen.) 2. Car makers do not want to give Google even more data and will lobby/restrict access as much as needed so theh control user data and sell it themselves to profit. CarPlay has a better shot since Apple can strong-arm people into doing what they want but Google is not in that position position car makers since everyone saw what happened to Android OEMs battling to differentiate.

cinntaile 5y ago

This future is already starting to play out in certain countries in Europe. Total Car Ownership is quite a bit more expensive than in the US and for people living in a city this seems like a fairly obvious cause and effect development.

kwyjobojoe 5y ago

Can't wait for the deaths during bushfires when the phone network is down but your car won't start because it's time to check the licensing server. There have already been examples where hire cars are stuck in parking garages because of no signal to reach their servers.

Dah00n 5y ago

Software updates require approval in the EU just like hardware changes if it significantly changes the car. Tesla is already on thin (or rather close to nonexistent) ice by just updating. This won't be allowed in the EU unless new laws are made (and I personally doubt it will be allowed and good riddance!).

olivermarks 5y ago

Now is the right time to buy a pre internet car and relevant consumables (belts, alternator, starter etc) of your choice before this becomes an issue. So long as you keep the suspension in good shape, and maintain the drive train properly you will be in good shape to avoid the rentier surveillance culture looming.

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GoToRO 5y ago
Buy a Dacia. In the latest models they have an official phone holder. As in: you can make your car as smart or as dumb as you want.

sebyx07 5y ago

Remember when you didn't have to crack your car to drive it?

SuchAnonMuchWow 5y ago

Tangentially: does anybody knows good dumb all-electric cars ?

GoToRO 5y ago
Dacia Spring https://youtu.be/zD8NUtn5BGE https://youtu.be/zD8NUtn5BGE
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  It's an open question about how good it is.
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apatheticonion 5y ago

Living in a city and having street-parked "rent-a-car" vehicles for infrequent trips while using trains to get to work is an incredible lifestyle. I went camping recently, so I rented a 4x4 for a few days. I needed to pick up family from the airport, I'll just rent a car for a few hours. Want to go for a hike up north, rent a car for a day. All I have to do is Lime-style, book one on the app, tap my car on the windshield to unlock and it's mine. Parking? No problem, the government has designated parking spots for rideshare vehicles. It could be cheaper, but with my frequency of use, it's cheaper than owning a car.

adreamingsoul 5y ago
This. Wife and I sold both our cars and moved to Oslo. We can get almost anywhere with public transportation and rent a car/van when we need to move stuff or get away to the cabin.
volta83 5y ago
In my city I have lived through multiple waves of this model. The main drawback is that it requires a bit of planning: on the weekends, everybody wants a car. I can count with one finger the companies that have survived multiple waves of this model over the last 15 years. They have "poor" cars, but enough of them, parked in "centralized" locations to ease maintainance, but enough of these locations spread out, great prices for a day, a weekend, etc. Most other companies that tried this have ended up defaulting the moment they had to repair their first wave of cars. The ones that still "survive" have gone through defaults, mergers, and have "infinite" amounts of money (e.g. owned by car manufacturers that use them as a way to get people "try" their cars as opposed to a "profitable" business). These are kind of "gimmicks" that you use when you pick somebody from the airport to show them around in a nice car. For everyday stuff, these are expensive enough for competing with Uber, and at that point, I just take a Uber. For one day trips they are also expensive enough that, if you take 3 days per month, owning a cheap car is actually cheaper and more practical than using these....
xuki 5y ago
For this to work you need a pretty good public transportation system. In the US for example, I don't know of any city other than NYC that have that kind of infrastructure.

GoOnThenDoTell 5y ago

1000% don’t want a car subscription, that’s called a lease.

michalu 5y ago

A friend of mine bought new BMW and the whole thing just shut down half way into the journey, he said he was happy he could get out of it. The more complexity the higher the chance of failure. If you're like me you just want a car that get's you from point A to point B reliably and safely. You're probably thinking they will always be an option for a straightforward mechanical machine. But that may not be the case. Regulators are increasing demands for more and more electronics and a lot of that is driven (I assume) by car industry lobby. Essentially, the best thing a car industry can achieve is to turn your car into a computer or iphone. This way they can release new models every year and increase the the pressure to buy more. Right now a 20yo car is still good to drive around and not that much has improved, but what are you going to do it the new software update is no longer compatible with your car? :) And obviously, more higher complexity.higher failure means more profits on component sales.

excuses_ 5y ago
The only thing that constantly improves and is really worth considering is safety. I am not even saying about active safety features but the passive ones. They are also in constant development.
- kqr 5y ago
  But these are sometimes making it safer for the occupants at the expense of the rest of the environment (think smaller windows and fatter A pillars making children harder to see, or strengthened soundproofing making children harder to hear.)
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    But are children harder to see than from older cars? It isn't like the windows were huge nor the beams small. Are children really harder to hear? Old cars were louder. How much sound did they cover up just with noise? How much more could you hear in an old car compared to a modern electric car?
  - Karsteski 5y ago

at_a_remove 5y ago

You think this is interesting, wait until the CEO of your car subscription company wakes up in a bad mood and decides to "cancel" your car. That whole "In the future, you will own nothing and you will be happy" thing is going to keep you gloriously in-line and silent when not.

livinginfear 5y ago

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to avoid purchasing, and therefore tying myself to, 'connected' platforms. I recently decided to purchase a new washing machine. It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. I know from other discussions on this forum around so-called 'smart' televisions[1][2] that simply not connecting the device to your home wi-fi network, or implementing DNS filtering measures such as a PiHole, may not be effective ways to restrict the access of these devices. Not to mention the various security implications of giving these devices access to your network. The idea of a car having the same connectivity is just a minefield of privacy, security and generally anti-consumer issues. I am not optimistic either that pushback against such concerns will force manufacturers to amend these practices. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25934286 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25313480

thraway123412 5y ago
I think legislation is the only way to fix this :( Require owner's/user's consent to connect. If no consent, no connect. Device's offline capabilities must still work and it must not nag you or otherwise use dark patterns to force a consent out of you. That would be a relatively minor extension to gdpr.
benhurmarcel 5y ago
> It was difficult to find one that did not feature some form of wireless connectivity. As long as you don’t have to connect it… I couldn’t find a decent toothbrush that didn’t have Bluetooth, but it doesn’t matter, I just ignore it.
- m463 5y ago
  I was looking for a coffee mug that could keep my coffee warm. I saw one in the store - it would keep the coffee heated and... bluetooth + app required. gah.

amelius 5y ago

"Tesla is updating your software. Please don't stop the car while your software update is in progress."

pabs3 5y ago

So when will we get a car running a user-installed open source operating system like postmarketOS for smartphones?

mk89 5y ago

Imagine the fun when you give gas and the display shows that your subscription can only reach 100km/h, if you want to go faster, please subscribe to the PRO subscription :) This is/was inevitable. I really think that we will be able to buy a car whose basic features can be locked/unlocked on subscription, and I am not talking about fancy features, but basic ones like speed, types of brakes, etc. It might not be a bad idea to reduce the price of a car considering you produce only one type and customize it at "runtime". And BTW, it's somehow already the case. I bought a Ford with 100 HP and the seller told me that with "some external help" I can get up to 125HP because the engine is the same as the one for the 125HP model. I was like "what the hell?". Of course the downside is that if you get into a bad accident and the insurance finds out, you're on your own. But that's another story. A pay as you go model would also be fun. The more you press the pedals the more you pay:)

stunt 5y ago

Thanks, but no thanks.

bob1029 5y ago

Cars have been a software platform for well over a decade. We've been cursed with horrendous UX, such as the electronic throttle body and steering, since the late 2000s. Every time someone puts a computer between the user and the real world is an opportunity to extract more control and revenue from the user. The incentives to make your life experience shitty are far in excess of the incentives to make it enjoyable.

deleted 5y ago

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rkhassen9 5y ago

Noooooooooo

rkhassen9 5y ago

Nooooooo

rkhassen9 5y ago

When are we going to create a world we actually want to live in, rather than one that profits a tiny minority at the expense of .... life?