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Jon Pretty sounds like a complete creep and yes, based on this account, a predator. That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason.

• api 6y ago
  I don't like this court-of-public-opinion stuff much either and the abuse potential is real. At the same time: what else are people going to do? There seems to be no other recourse. Most people let bullies get away with it because even stepping in as a third party means standing up to a bully. It can be scary, but even if there's no real risk it's still a fucking pain in the ass. Who wants to get into a mud slinging competition with a predator? Or get a harassment lawsuit? If someone is willing to harass other people this way, they will certainly harass you this way.
  • fishnchips 6y ago
    Contact law enforcement.
    • marcinzm 6y ago
      You mean the law enforcement in a foreign country that you are visiting for only a few days? The one that would require you to spend untold thousands of dollars, that you don't have, on flights if you had to testify in a court in a language that you do not fluently speak?
      • varjag 6y ago
        What do you do if you're mugged in a foreign country?
        • marcinzm 6y ago
          Generally count yourself lucky to be alive and then fly home in a few days.
          • varjag 6y ago
            So you suggest the victims should just shrug it off.
            • jokethrowaway 6y ago
              The chances of the police and the court system doing something are not many and it will cost you. I tried fighting injustices in court, it often doesn't work and you just end up wasting money. I would have rather spent the money on a guy with a wrench.
            • marcinzm 6y ago
              I mean they could post on social media about their account and see if the community acts.
    • deleted 6y ago
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    • vkou 6y ago
      Law enforcement will tell you to pound sand. Much (not all) of this kind of abuse isn't illegal, and DAs rarely want to prosecute the parts that are. It ruins their district's crime stats, it's difficult to prosecute, and many of them just don't care. Not to mention that this took place while traveling to a foreign country. Edit: I'm assuming that folks disagreeing with this post have had nothing but success with reporting sexual harassment and assault to police departments, foreign and domestic... Because the alternative assumption is a lot less charitable.
  • SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    I don't blame the people who go public - I just wish that the rest of us would be a bit more hesitant to immediately signal boost them. (For example, I might avoid upvoting a story like this to the top of a tech news aggregation platform when the accused hasn't had time to respond.)
  • darig 6y ago
    The 2nd amendment still exists (for now). Protect yourself and eliminate a predator in 1 easy step. Please. For the children.
  • deleted 6y ago
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• 908B64B197 6y ago
  > heard from someone in HR that the charges were false, but "optics" were the reason they had to move forward with his termination. Time to name the company.
  • JPKab 6y ago
    A massive company that makes overpriced, low-quality athletic products that double as status symbols, which they manufacture overseas (often using child labor) but then sell for massive markups in the US, Europe, etc. They have an extremely aggressive "woke" presence in their advertising, because as long as you care about social justice for your targeted customers, who cares that "people of color" in the developing world are being paid slave wages to create your products. You probably know who I'm talking about now, but I'm not going to name them.
    • darig 6y ago
      you spelled "nike" wrong.
    • medicineman 6y ago
      Nike. Hell, I'd do anything for a downvote.
    • Elof 6y ago
      Seems like your brother can probably sue for damages if this is the whole story
      • JPKab 6y ago
        He was told his case was legitimate, but the cost was too much for him to afford. Also, large corporations have massive legal teams. The narrative that is widely believed is that "the cost of making an accusation is so high that nobody would do it, so automatically believe accusers" and they pretend that there is no cost to being accused. It's an oversimplification and ignores the game theory involved in these things.
• noobermin 6y ago
  I'm sure what your brother faced is terrible but how exactly does this relate to the story?
  • swyx 6y ago
    its a reminder that mob justice is really terrible when it is wrong. we dont have all the facts. we should absolutely take precautions from this guy causing further harm, but the rape accusation needs to go thru the legal process including allowing the accused to defend themselves.
    • noobermin 6y ago
      My point is that these are not that analogous. The linked account is one of many accusations against John Pretty. What the comment is referring to is an accusation that sounds like it's one person's word against another and primarily a conflict confined to one HR department. It isn't really "mob justice" then, it's HR siding with one party.
    • ummonk 6y ago
      Well, in this instance given that his coworkers sent him a gift basket, it sounds like the mob came to the right conclusions while the institution took the wrong action.
  • JPKab 6y ago
    Behavior like this should be punished within the framework of the civil and criminal court system. The court of public opinion has no rules as to the validity of evidence introduced, and relies on informal enforcement mechanisms as well, which are prone to abuse. The court of public opinion still thinks that the riots in Kenosha were justified (the actual courts heard and saw real evidence that determined that Mr. Blake was indeed sexually assualting his ex and was indeed reaching for a knife when he was shot). The court of public opinion thought that the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was justified because they thought Saddam helped OBL. The recent case of the teenage girl shot in Columbus featured the Court of Public Opinion weighing in that the girl should have been allowed to stab the other girl pinned against that car, and the cop should have "shot her in the leg", which any expert on use of force would immediately explain would not have worked. Why? Because the public as a whole is filled with smart individuals, but an an aggregate level are a bunch of moronic lemmings, like all large groups of people are.
• deleted 6y ago
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• toast0 6y ago
  > That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. The alleged crimes are difficult to prove in general, but in this case the victim seems to have been only visiting the country where the crime occurred. And didn't fully understand what had happened contemporaneously. I would hope she approaches the appropriate criminal authorities to report, and I would hope something is done, but without local knowledge of how these reports are handled in Berlin, I would expect it to mostly be written down somewhere and no further action taken. Speaking out in a public way like this helps others who experienced the same pattern of behavior to recognize it, and possibly share similar experiences to the point where a criminal investigation may be started, if relevant. It also may help put people who might be exposed to similar behavior in the future on notice, so they can attempt to avoid it, or report it as it happens, if it happens in the future.
• arthur_sav 6y ago
  Yes, what happened to due diligence?
  • klyrs 6y ago
    What happened to free speech? If you think this is slander, don't the same rules apply; mustn't we presume the innocence of Yifan until she's proven guilty?
    • arthur_sav 6y ago
      I think you made my point. We used to have a process to figure out what happened and make a judgement after the facts have been laid out. What we get now is emotional responses to outrageous headlines and mobs ready to crucify the accused. What a farce.
      • klyrs 6y ago
        > We used to have a process to figure out what happened and make a judgement after the facts have been laid out. When was this? In your living memory? Was that time before or after Emmet Till was murdered by a lynch mob?
• suifbwish 6y ago
  It’s the modern day equivalent of being accused of witchcraft. You get a trial but good luck getting your reputation back. People are trained not to doubt this sort of thing end assume guilt, then when confronted they rattle off some supposed statistical fact that it’s virtually impossible for the accuser to be lying.
  • solosoyokaze 6y ago
    Except there's no such thing as witchcraft but sexual harassment is very real. Victims have every right to speak up. Libel and slander laws are also real. If someone is actually making a false accusation, there's already legal ways to deal with it.
    • hulahoof 6y ago
      As the parent mentioned, the problem isn't recourse it is by that stage your life is already ruined. I don't think there is a clear answer though, the only moral thing to do is to support the accuser.
      • solosoyokaze 6y ago
        I think it's exceedingly rare that there is a false accusation. Not only would the accuser face libel and slander laws, typically the supporters of the accused will put immense pressure on the accuser and also ruin their reputation. > the only moral thing to do is to support the accuser. I fully agree.
    • matz1 6y ago
      >there's already legal ways to deal with it suing can cost money, time, effort, and may not able to necessarily clear your name even if you won.
  • UncleMeat 6y ago
    What are people supposed to do then. If your friend sees somebody at the store and says “that guy is an asshole, he used to beat me up in middle school” do you respond “wait I can’t develop any opinion of that person without a trial”?
• joelbluminator 6y ago
  > who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women In general I don't like it as well because it could lead to abuse as we just read - but that's also not always black or white. In some cases it could be real romance or attraction between two adults, even if one has a higher status than the other (that's of course not what happened in this story! I'm just saying it could be consensual, even if the "high status" person uses his status just to get sex. Movie stars and rock stars do the same thing.
• nicklecompte 6y ago
  > Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. “Imagine that you were convicted of murder but, unlike John Wayne Gacy, you were innocent.” Seriously what is the point of comments like this? False convictions are real and very very bad, but I know very few social justice advocates who are opposed to locking up serial killers. Likewise, the existence of unscrupulous people who make false accusations of sexual assault/etc is a real problem. But that’s a very shitty excuse to trash every public accusation - especially when in practice it is the public accusation that leads to more victims speaking out. More to the point: Jon Pretty is a notable public figure who has been credibly accused of extremely toxic and disgusting behavior towards large portions of the Scala community. At least some of this behavior is clearly not illegal, merely dangerous and profoundly unethical[1]. Therefore the court of public opinion is the only court that has solid jurisdiction, so to speak. [1] That said: some of the accusations and the large number of alleged victims merit a criminal investigation.
  • Cyril_HN 6y ago
    You are conflating conviction with mere, non-legal accusation. Conviction means someone made an accusation at a legal level, then it was considered worthy by police, then by a country's prosecution service, then by a jury, and then (probably) by an appeals court too. Under normal circumstances, that's a bar infinitely higher than, "I'm claiming to have a story about someone."
  • andrewzah 6y ago
    Someone should coin a law for this phenomenon: Every single time a ~~woman~~ victim makes a public statement like this, in the comment sections a man must be discussing false accusations or the court of public opinion. I don't think I've ever not seen this. People who are abused are damned if they do, damned if they don't. edit: removed specific gender edit2: I'm not trying to be inflammatory here. This is a phenomenon that I've noticed over the years.
    • solosoyokaze 6y ago
      It's also a completely false argument since there's libel and slander laws. If the accused was innocent, they would simply sue the false accuser. That they don't says everything. The barrier and punishment for coming forward as a victim of sexual abuse, rape or harassment is great indeed. Questioning every case is ignorance of existing laws setup to handle any false accusations.
• matz1 6y ago
  > Imagine a letter like this targeted at you one day, except unlike Mr. Pretty, you are innocent. You already assume he is guilty ?
• btilly 6y ago
  I only kind of agree. In this case a Chinese woman living in the USA apparently got raped in Germany 3 years ago. To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. What, exactly, do you imagine that the police are likely to do with her report? I hate the court of public opinion as much or more as the next guy. But if this is a real pattern and he is as practiced as it sounds, after 10-20 women come forth then I'll be very confident that the crime is real. And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. I agree with you that ideally this would go to the police first and they would actually act. But in the real world, she picked one of the best of the bad options available to her.
  • gambiting 6y ago
    >>To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. Well, that's not strictly true. At least the official advice in the UK is that even if the crime happened elsewhere you should still report it locally, then the case should be forwarded to the authorities in the country where it allegedly happened. https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%20need%20to%20make%20a,a%20recognised%20law%20enforcement%20authority https://www.helpforvictims.co.uk/content/Q1.htm#:~:text=You%.... No idea how/if that would work in US, but in general you should be able to report it locally.
  • Fern_Blossom 6y ago
    >To involve law enforcement she would have to travel to a country where she doesn't speak the language, to make an accusation for which she has no evidence but her word, against a man who lives in another city. That's what an embassy is for... they help deal with these situation. >And there is also a chance that we can hit a critical mass where law enforcement somewhere may take an interest after all. Don't complain that a law enforcement agency doesn't do anything if they're never made aware of the problem.
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• jfengel 6y ago
  The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted. The court -- rightly -- sets a very high bar to conviction, and police and prosecutors often won't even attempt it unless the evidence is overwhelming. You're concerned that this is stacked against you, but the courts are stacked against the victims. So it doesn't really suffice to decry the one problem without addressing the other. So perhaps you can see what it looks like to many women when you say, "Hey, I'm sorry this happened to you, but this bad thing happened to my brother, so _shrug_". Did your brother go to the courts and police to address these issues? It may been unlawful termination. There is a large domain of behavior that is either nebulously legal or difficult to prosecute but which makes our communities much, much worse. It's counterproductive to tell the people victimized by that to stop talking about it. The solution is to go forward and find ways to set up our communities to protect people. And that can't mean just asking victims to accept that.
  • chmod600 6y ago
    "The problem is that only a tiny percentage of harassers and rapists are ever convicted." How can that be known? Why do you presume that someone is a harasser or rapist if they weren't convicted?
    • joshuamorton 6y ago
      Because I know people who have been harassed and raped and whose harassers and rapists weren't punished. I know literally dozens of stories like that, and maybe a handful where the harasser or rapist was punished at all. Of those, even fewer where they were convicted of a crime. The majority of these cases the victim isn't public in their accusation, there's no argument that they're trying to gain something or hurt someone else. So by comparing the data that is presumably more honest, that people make in private, to that in public, we can assume that most instances of harassment go unpunished.
      • throwaway0427 6y ago
        I'm one. I'm also male. It was brutal. No, I did not go to the police. I was far too afraid.
• ksm1717 6y ago
  Very tactful. You should respond with this story in real life when someone tells you they were sexually abused.
• jmcgough 6y ago
  I can empathize with your brother's situation. That kind of thing is horrifying for anyone to imagine. With that said, creeps like this continue to proliferate because the courts only do anything in very rare cases (Cosby or other serial abusers). It typically only hurts people who were abused, not helps - it can take years to go through court, and in this situation because it's across borders there's likely no court to file with. People come forward in blog posts because it's often their only reasonable way to try to hold someone accountable and warn other potential victims.
• bjarneh 6y ago
  I agree with you about the accusations. He sounds creepy; but one blog-entry is not exactly hard evidence. An internet mob may assume its all true anyway. > men who use their status within programming communities as a tool to target women Wouldn't "programming communities" be one of the worst places for a true predator? There are so few women compared to men here. I would think most predators would choose the modeling or acting industry; where this type of behavior is almost expected...
  • hulahoof 6y ago
    Abusers will use the platform they have
  • endominus 6y ago
    I would presume that many predators have followed that exact line of thinking, and there may be population pressure pushing them towards other fields. Any ecological model will show that a certain population of prey can support only so many predators, if you'll pardon the pun, so some must naturally migrate to fill other niches that, while not as abundant, are less crowded with competition. You'll probably find less sophisticated predators in these sparser environments, as they were outcompeted by "stronger" (read, more careful, charismatic, and effective) predators in the richer ecologies. An interesting thought. Under this model, (and I realize that this is a post-facto realization, but what can we do?) we would expect to see significantly more reports of predator behavior in these less competitive niches than the objective number of predators would imply, because the predators in them are less skilled at hiding their predation than predators in the more prey-rich environments.
• fred_is_fred 6y ago
  > I find the nature of these kinds of posts to be counterproductive. Therapeutic to the author? Likely. A way to mobilize support? Certainly. But the method can be abused. I feel like you made your own point with the story about your brother. Everyone below is ready to boycott the company which you basically named already.
• Ankintol 6y ago
  > there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason Having supported a few friends trying to push these kinds of complaints through the courts, I think the precise reason this kind of naming and shaming has become so common place is the criminal justice system isn't working well. Even for fairly straightforward sexual assault case in a liberal jurisdiction with witnesses I've watched a friend struggle with members of the justice system verbally insulting and degrading them as they try to obtain justice for themselves. Having seen all that when I see a post like this I understand why the author did not go to court, and don't question it. If we took the time to actually fix the courts I'd be much more skeptical of claims that had not been presented to law enforcement. I feel for people like your brother who are victims of people abusing the trend, but as long as our justice system fails victims so horribly I think this is the least bad solution available.
  • epicureanideal 6y ago
    Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations? Also, can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them"? It's possible you just mean the lawyer is accusing them of lying... which is what you do when you think a person is lying. The accused does have a presumption of innocence, and the accuser may need to be cross examined under some reasonable amount of emotional stress to see if their behavior under stress reveals that they are lying. There's not really any way around this other than "well, we'll just assume they're telling the truth and anyone they accuse is guilty" which is a far worse solution in my opinion.
    • Ankintol 6y ago
      > Can you please provide proof that our justice system is failing victims? Do you just mean that the conviction rate is anything less than 100% for accusations? I'm confused that you think this is something I can prove through citations. The way we adjudicate whether someone is a victim is through the courts, my claim is the courts do a bad job of this. There are only two things I can think to poinnt you at: 1. The numerous written accounts online of women attempting to get justice and being stonewalled. Some of the more famous cases during the beginning of the #metoo era showed this. 2. I can say that the lived experience of every woman I know to have gone through the courts found it unnecessarily degrading (n~=20) and while I believe all of them, only a quarter (n~=5) received a guilty verdict. I know far more women who did not go through the process due to stories from women they know. I'm personally convinced, if you're not I understand but am not ready to expend the energy digging up cases to try and convince you. > can you clarify what you mean by "verbally insulting and degrading them" Literal slurs, misogynistic generalizations about women being temptresses, stereotypically horrible questions such as "were you asking for it?"
• deleted 6y ago
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• furyofantares 6y ago
  We have criminal and civil justice systems that have different levels of burden of proof, and correspondingly differ in the severity of their outcomes. It makes sense to also have social justice systems that are lower burden of proof and have lesser consequences. Especially for crimes that are difficult to prosecute and have low visibility.
• tootie 6y ago
  I think that's a pretty cynical POV. False accusations happen, but aren't the norm. Far more abusers get away with their bad behavior than good people are wrongly punished. Yifan already has a second woman coming forward describing similar behavior as well some witnesses to some of the public parts. It's probably unlikely she'd be able to prove a criminal case in whatever country this happened, but we don't need bad behavior to be criminal to declare it unacceptable and stop rewarding it. It's likely we'll see a few more pretty soon, hear Pretty's side and then the court of public opinion can render a decision. Right now, her story is pretty plausible and she has seemingly no motive to fabricate. He won't go to jail, but he will stop being invited to conferences and likely lose his livelihood.
• devilduck 6y ago
  You know the reason people started leaning into social justice is because the cops and the courts weren't doing a very good job? That's why we are where we are. Also the fact that a lot of dudes just can't imagine a world where they just keep to themselves doesn't really help the problem. But again, this is where we find ourselves and it is going to keep continuing. And frankly the idea that there are people that believe "smear campaigns" are as normal as every day sexual harassment is extremely laughable.
• knodi123 6y ago
  The redress for a false accusation that results in serious harm to your career is a slander lawsuit. Sounds like all the ducks are in a row, evidence wise, so just figure out how much damage she caused, and sue her for it. I know it's not quite the same, and an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure- but there's this narrative that a person who is falsely accused is utterly powerless before the power of any angry woman willing to yell "perv", and that's just false.
  • vkou 6y ago
    What's doubly ironic is that the bar for convicting an actual predator in a criminal court of law is incredibly high, but the bar for winning a libel case against a false accuser in a civil court is... A lot lower. It's far easier to obtain justice when you are falsely accused, then when you have been assaulted - but HN threads on the subject are predominantly full of arguments about how awful the falsely accused have it.
  • JPKab 6y ago
    My brother was suicidal at one time due to the accusations, and more importantly, the fact that everyone immediately believed them. When his wife got the idea to call the daycare and ask if they had video footage, he thought for sure he'd be saved. (His employer also had his company cell phone location data which further corroborated his alibi). He literally proved himself innocent to his HR department. But if you've ever been involved on the inside in one of these situations, once HR has initiated a termination, they end up introducing additional liability if they halt the termination (effectively admitting they were in the wrong). He certainly COULD have sued for slander, but the cost of the lawsuit and retaining a lawyer, and for him, the emotional toll, was too high. And I completely understand that there is a huge toll for accusers as well. I think, depending on the venue, that the process can be very traumatic for accusers with real claims, and also accused who are targeted by false accusations. The colleague who accused him was a woman who his coworkers had warned him "not to cross" because she was "a total sociopath" according to his other team members. One of them even told him "you should have listened to me" after he was terminated. It's interesting how poorly most coders understand the realities of human nature. People aren't devils, but they aren't angels either. I just really resent the fact that any attempt at injecting nuance into these kinds of conversations brings out attacks from the un-nuanced, tribalists who reduce everything down to bumper sticker slogans and identity groups. It's disgusting and reminds me of the sectarian conflicts I've witnessed in other nations.
• jlebar 6y ago
  > Ask yourself if that's a possibility, and if you think that there is a zero probability of anyone maliciously weaponizing accusations of sexual misconduct. As a straight, white man: False accusations of sexual assault are extremely rare, but they do happen. It's not a zero probability event. I guess my response is, right now there's a nonzero chance of someone assaulting someone else, and then a nonzero chance they'll away with it. And there's a nonzero chance of someone making a false accusation and another nonzero chance of them getting away with it. We as a society have to weigh the likelihood of each of these four things occurring. All experience (and you can look this up) is that sexual assault is perpetrated relatively frequently, and people frequently aren't held accountable in the criminal justice system, for a variety of reasons. OTOH the evidence is that false accusations are vanishingly rare in comparison. So we should just...keep this in mind, is all, before saying that this kind of public statement is counterproductive. Maybe it protects someone from him, or maybe it protects someone from someone like him. Sure, I'd like him to be in jail, but maybe in the flawed system we live with today, the best we can hope for is he's kicked out of the Scala community. Maybe that would be productive?
• ummonk 6y ago
  HR should have fired the female colleague upon discovering the allegations were proven false, not left it up to the courts and criminal justice system.
• NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  We have a criminal justice system so that, when the standard of proof can be met, the state can punish and deter wrongdoers through fines, forcible incarceration and other limitations on freedom. No-one is entitled to maintain a positive reputation just because they've yet to be convicted in a criminal court. One can be a creepy sex-pest without that behavior rising the level of criminality, and one should not be surprised if rumors of such behavior get around. For those who feel they are being slandered, there is a law of defamation and a civil courts system for a reason. At least there, the burden of proof is only balance of probabilities.
• caconym_ 6y ago
  Arguably the problem in your brother’s case is more his organization being willing to ignore evidence in favor of “optics”, and less the ability of women to make their experiences with predators public. When accusations like this come out, organizations with a stake in the outcome should act with integrity to find the truth and respond to it. Witch hunts are never a good idea. But the fact that some men may be falsely accused doesn’t mean women shouldn’t speak up when they have experiences like this. Ironically, many (if not most) women who don’t speak up publicly end up being gaslighted and marginalized by the very same kinds of corporate entities who were willing to throw your brother under the bus for optics. By the same token, it’s often a last ditch attempt to get some help after all other avenues have failed.
• nindalf 6y ago
  You see the double standard you’re preaching? When a woman is sexually assaulted, you tell them to use the justice system. You stick to this despite other folks telling you the chances of conviction are low. You don’t want people to make public accusations. And yet you, in this thread, have no problem making accusations against Nike for wrongful termination. Why not use the legal system to pursue this? You answer that too - low chance of success apparently. Within a few minutes you’ve done exactly what you’re asking OP not to do.
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• PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  >That being said, there is a court and criminal justice system for a reason. If you come to my home and act in a way that my family and other guests find offensive, we're not going to invite you back. We're also not going to try to prosecute you. There is a huge set of behaviors that are not criminal nor civil offenses, but still things that if experienced would likely lead people to want to avoid you, not hire you, not work with you etc. The author did not claim that Mr. Pretty broke any laws. She doesn't call for any legal consequences. There's no basis for suggesting that the story needs to be judged by a legal system.
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• kelnos 6y ago
  It's a bit strange that you claim that the proper venue for this sort of thing is the justice system, but then relate a story where your brother for some reason did not avail himself of the justice system to right a wrong against him. And that just rams the point home: often the justice system doesn't help, and actively hurts. If he'd brought suit against his former employer for terminating him, even if he won, he would have gained a reputation in his field for being litigious toward employers, and that would have greatly hurt his future employment prospects. So maybe, just maybe, there are reasons the justice system isn't going to work so well in this situation either.
• koonsolo 6y ago
  Being a manipulative jerk and creep is not a crime. I think it's very brave of this woman to write such an article, and warn future victims about this person. So in that sense, such articles NEED to be written. Who knows how many young girls she saved from the same experience.