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"Model 3 was the best-selling premium sedan in the world, outselling long-time industry leaders such as the 3 Series and E Class. This demonstrates that an elec

"Model 3 was the best-selling premium sedan in the world, outselling long-time industry leaders such as the 3 Series and E Class. This demonstrates that an electric vehicle can be a category leader and outsell its gas-powered counterparts." I find this to be a major milestone in the transition to BEV. This is an achievement.

BluntleyHonest 6y ago
Modem 3 a premium sedan, well idiots will be idiots I guess, carry on the torch.
988747 6y ago
That's just cleverly chosen comparison point. The only "premium" thing about Teslas is their price. They have laughably low quality compared to top BMW or Audi models.
nixass 6y ago
Why is Model 3 even considered as a premium? What makes it premium comparing to established German holy trinity (BMW, Merc, Audi)? It's average car at best, and with its notorious build quality standards it's not even an average.
- benhurmarcel 6y ago
  The price makes it premium
  - nixass 6y ago
    Let's call it bad value for money then
- 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
  As noted elsewhere, I've put 70,000 miles on my Model 3. After driving a 328i for 20 years, the Tesla is more fun in every way. As for build quality, my maintenance so far is $850 for a windshield. Cuz... I drive it so fast all the time, pebbles chipped away at it until it cracked down the middle. That's it. I can also attest that operating costs are 1/4 the BMW. Energy costs, yes, but also $0 for brake pads (I'm at 90% after 70k miles), $0 for fluids (no oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, radiator flush, ...).
  - nixass 6y ago
    So reading your comment, what makes it premium? Fun and cheaper maintenance?
    - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
      For reference, I put 230k miles on a 328i, 80k on an E430, 70k on a 2017 Model 3. The good: - Handling. Model 3 is sharper acceleration, flatter and faster curves, 4-wheel active traction control(<- this is amazing, it automatically corrects the car's position when breaking traction) - Sound System. Model 3 sound system is better than either of the other two. Moreover, it actually improved since I bought it through software upgrades. They even download new firmware into the amplifiers. - Comfort. The Tesla seat is amazingly comfortable. I drove for 9 hours on Sunday for example. Never felt fatigued, no soreness, no pressure points in my ass. In the other cars, which are also very comfortable, I'd at least have a sore lower back after that amount of time in the saddle. - Charging: Since Tesla has a captive charge station network, charging is a non-event. Back in to the stall and plug it in. It's fast and getting faster. No credit card input to futz with. Note that I don't have experience using other systems, but I've seen them collocated with Tesla chargers and I've seen users struggle trying to figure out how to get the juice flowing. The Not Good: - If the window is rolled down when you close the door, you can hear that it's not secured within the door (not premium). - The trunk doesn't lift when you unlatch it from the console (not premium). - Some carpeted seams are overlaid rather than joined. That seemed to be a miss in premium. Overall, I'd say they focused on the elements that matter most (drive, comfort, sound) and the lesser factors, while important, will be corrected over time (fingers crossed). FWIW, I did not label it as Premium. I don't know what I'd label it as, cuz I think BEVs are a different enough experience to have their own label. Just trying to offer some objectivity in this thread.
  - bradfa 6y ago
    You should still change the brake fluid every few years. I don't know what Tesla recommends but most car manufacturers recommend brake fluid flushes every 2-5 years (the Germans generally recommend 2 year intervals, GM generally recommends 5 year intervals, the Japanese brands seem to recommend 3 year intervals). DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluid will absorb water on purpose and disperse it throughout the fluid. Over time if you do not flush out this water-contaminated fluid it'll start to cause corrosion inside the brake system.
systemvoltage 6y ago
What’s amazing is that just 5 years ago, it seemed like a distant goal. People were skeptical of Tesla in 2015 (rightfully so). Almost went bankrupt in 2017. They dug themselves out of there despite of Elon’s PR shenanigans. Pretty amazing I think! Now about that stock price, I’m not so sure. It’s like next 20 years are baked into $735/share price now.
- dangus 6y ago
  The inflated stock price is easy to explain: intangibles are part of the balance sheet. In my guesstimation, Tesla will be making electric cars with a range to dollar ratio that can’t possibly be matched by incumbents for the foreseeable future. VW and the rest are more capable of producing a refined car, but (again, my opinion) Tesla’s EV advantage is similar to the big three’s various inertial advantages that they enjoyed in the mid-20th century. Perhaps more US-specific: buying a Tesla over something like a VW ID.4 gives you the supercharger network. It will be years if not decades before the general open standard charging network can compete with that benefit of ownership.
  - azinman2 6y ago
    So I just bought an ID.4 this weekend after seeing on HN on Friday that it launched in the US. I also test drove a Tesla Y just to double check Saturday morning before doing so. Tesla Y is for sure faster and the better drive. It's also like 10-15k more expensive and that's not even before VW's rebates. The interior was weird -- tiny headrests, tiny mirrors, and really poor back visibility. A giant screen in middle and nothing else wasn't particularly great, and I don't have CarPlay (I know Tesla has a lot of functionality in their system, but I'd personally rather drive it all from my phone to have a more continuous experience in car and out of car). On that screen was a 'video game'-ified representation of what Autopilot was seeing... not only distracting, but kept being wrong while I was stopped at a red light staring at it as it missed the cars in front of me and kept rapidly alternating what direction the incoming lane was going to turn. And that's driving the car? Scary! I don't care about being faster, the ID.4 is plenty fast. I also don't really care about 250mi versus 350mi range or whatever right now.. all are inconvenient for a super long trip. I just recently drove from SF to near Canada... that was a very long multi-day drive and I would for sure not want to have multiple 35m+ stops in addition to the long drive. Until the technology gets WAYYY better I'll just rent ICE cars for a very long drive. Until then 250mi is plenty to get around the Bay Area knowing I can just plugin at home overnight to recharge. VW has build a Electrify America charging network from a 2B settlement for their diesel emissions standards. If they're smart they'll capitalize on this and win much more in the long run by becoming Exxon AND a car company... their network isn't exclusive to their cars. With everyone coming online in the next couple years, Tesla is going to have very real competition. I don't think the areas that they're better at are quite as make/break for car decision making as they claim to be. Elon Musk himself certainly doesn't help as a very divisive figure (and was part of the reason I didn't want a Tesla).
asien 6y ago
> I find this to be a major milestone in the transition to BEV. This is an achievement. While I agree it would be great if we had 0 emission vehicles, today EV in US or Germany run largely of coal , hence battery production is anything but green... Thus I still don’t see the point of what’s called « Transition ». Climate change is real , but at the moment without nuclear fusion I fail to see how this is going to change anything it seems to be deporting the problem to be honest.
- brianwawok 6y ago
  Coal is 20% not most https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_Sta... It’s not an either or problem. It’s an also problem. Make power plants cleaner and make cars cleaner. Hit it from Both ends.
  - asien 6y ago
    > Coal is 20% not most You’re right ! US has shifted from coal ... to Natural Gas ! I don’t think that this is solving the problem , natural gas comes from fracking ... but it’s definitely a small win knowing how big is America and how much less natural gas produces CO2.
    - _ph_ 6y ago
      Natural gas is already a big step as it only emits 2/3rds of the CO2 per kWh compared to coal (high hydrogen content). Also, gas power plants can be regulated faster than coal power plants, so they work much better together with wind/solar power and make the transition easier.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  There are a ton of viable and productive energy production methods that at least start to address climate change between where we're at now and "nuclear fusion". Fission may have plenty of issues, but lets not pretend that the entire world is "fusion or bust".
ERD0L 6y ago
Model 3 is a premium sedan ? Oh :/ Where are my paint color options, ventilated seats ? What about parts for my local car shop ? Did they forgot the safety features unique to german cars ?
- brianwawok 6y ago
  Now compare 0-60 and infotainment systems. Is premium how fast the car goes, or how many paint colors it comes in? Different people have different requirements. You are likely paying over 100k to get a car as fast as a model 3.
  - thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
    >You are likely paying over 100k to get a car as fast as a model 3. Define fast
    - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
      I believe they are talking about 0-60 times. Model 3 Performance in Track mode is #12 in this list[0]. The least you can pay for this version is $55k. #13 is a Jaguar XE SV Project at $188k #11 is a Bentley Bentayga at $160,000 #10 is an Acura NSX at $157,000 [0] https://www.motortrend.com/news/quickest-cars-motortrend-2019/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/quickest-cars-motortrend-201...
  - nixass 6y ago
    > Now compare 0-60 What is this, kindergarten?
  - ProAm 6y ago
    It's still not a premium car.
    - DeRock 6y ago
      Premium is defined by price, not your desired feature set.
t0mas88 6y ago
The model 3 really isn't a premium sedan. It's more like a mid range Skoda than an Audi, with a cheap plastic interior and pretty bad build quality. They sell very well because it's cheap and in many countries you get a great tax deal on them making it even cheaper. Which I'm really happy for because EVs help against climate change. But I'm also very happy I cancelled my pre-order and don't have to drive a model 3.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Skoda's have pretty good build quality nowadays.
- grammarprofess 6y ago
  So tell us what one should drive instead of a model 3?
  - t0mas88 6y ago
    What you can buy instead is 99% based on personal preference, I cancelled the model 3 and got a BMW because I liked the few I had before. But my co-founder would never drive a BMW. He returned his second model S and got an Audi EV instead. Which is not a car I would pick. My point is that a model 3 isn't really a luxury car, it's an entry model and has the build quality and options that go with that.
    - dawnerd 6y ago
      So I don't get this. You bash the Model 3 for build quality but you support BMW which is notorious for having horrible reliability. I'd pick the car with just okay paint and maybe some not-so-perfect gaps over a car that I know is going to cost me thousands in maintenance.
      - Tepix 6y ago
        According to ADAC (in german) BMW is pretty good in terms of reliability. https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/adac-pannenstatistik/ https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/a... They do mention battery issues with the BMW 5 series prior to 2010.
jocker12 6y ago
This is a very tricky presentation of the larger image. The document mentions the "Premium Sedan" category market, not the entire market. So looking at the Premium Sedan market share in the US (which is arguably the most important market in the world) the numbers show a 1% decline in sales for 2020 - "The midsized car segment continues to lose share in the US car market in 2020. Sales were down 22% in an overall market down 14%. As a result the share of midsized cars drops by 1 percentage point to 10.2%, and in absolute numbers, the 1.5 million sales make this the lowest year of this millennium and long before it." - from https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2020-midsized-cars/ https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2020-midsized... So while the premium sedan category (including Tesla 3) is declining overall, Tesla is reporting to its shareholders the "great achievement" of winning that sales declining race.
- nickik 6y ago
  If the whole market declines but your share of the overall market raises and you overtake everybody else in that market that is clearly an achievement. Given that this is literally the first mass market car by Tesla, achieving leading sales globally over comparable products by BMW and Mercedes is clearly pretty important. And as they said, they hope Model Y will hopefully be the best selling vehicle globally next year. This is important to point out after 5 years of FUD about how Tesla has no demand.
  - jocker12 6y ago
    Selling more of the less selling cars is not an achievement by any means. All the other companies are changing production towards different other categories, but the “achievement” Tesla wants their shareholders to be happy about is that they sell more of the cars less and less people are buying. If you sell more horses worldwide out of the “four legged category” it has no relevance as long as less and less people are buying horses for transportation.
    - linsomniac 6y ago
      I'm not sure one years data point makes for a trend. Especially not 2020. I have no data to back it up, but it seems likely that the people who can afford a luxury car are also the people that could afford to stay home during the pandemic. Personally, I'm finding it hard to justify a new car when I'm 6 months overdue for an oil change and not even at half the miles. :-)
reducesuffering 6y ago
I'm surprised by how micro-managey Tesla is with their Model 3/Y prices. Most manufacturers release a static MSRP for that model year. However, Tesla the past year was dropping prices $500-$1,000 periodically. And then as of last month, has raised prices $500-$1,000 twice.
- Geee 6y ago
  They're balancing their production capacity with price. I.e. price that keeps delivery window not too long or short. They could sell them cheaper, but then they would be limited by manufacturing capacity.
- ardit33 6y ago
  Maybe they are doing A/B testing of the price?
  - judge2020 6y ago
    In reality this is likely because they suspect the US EV tax credit extension to pass and they're slowly increasing the price to indirectly grab some of that as profit.
- mlindner 6y ago
  Is that in the US or Europe. In Europe they bounce it around a bit because of shipping costs from US and China fluctuating.
  - reducesuffering 6y ago
    US
- m463 6y ago
  Now that you mention it - they're almost replicating the dealer experience. In the beginning Tesla's selling point was that they were not a dealer, you go to the showroom and there is no pressure because everyone pays the same price. Except with their pricing monkey business, you're replicating the same high-pressure "buy now before the price goes up"... for everyone. Aren't they over the hump? Can they get away from gym-membership stuff? Combine that with the variability of other nonsense - when will I get my car/truck? surprise! square steering wheel! etc... A true premium experience should treat people better, and ONLY inflict positive drama.
api 6y ago
Even if Tesla eventually failed, this is an achievement. They've fully validated the EV market. I highly doubt that we'd be seeing accelerating EV adoption like this without Tesla.
- tonyedgecombe 6y ago
  Nissan deserve some recognition as well, it's not just Tesla.
  - api 6y ago
    I own a Leaf. They're great cars, sort of the electric alternative to the Honda Civic and more economical than Tesla, but they're not cool or sexy. Tesla made EVs cool and desirable for car people. Also the Tesla Roadster was slightly before the Leaf if my memory is correct. It was a super-expensive niche car but it showed what an EV can do. BTW my Leaf out-accelerates many muscular gasoline cars. The torque curve benefits of EVs are universal and apply even to wimpier EVs.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  Too many countries are banning ICE sales in the next decade. So they have at least a decade of life left.
rconti 6y ago
The E-class is an entirely different class from the Model 3 and 3 series. Maybe just a C-class typo. Pretty impressive, especially considering that the 3 series is a similar age (both ~2018). The C class is getting long in the tooth, though, dates to 2016.
- mulmen 6y ago
  It definitely looks like a typo. But the Audi A6 is also an equivalent to the BMW 5 Series or Mercedes E Class. The A5 seems like a better comparison to the Model 3. I wonder if the numbers are also wrong? Did they actually compare E Class and A6 sales instead of C Class and A5 sales? Are 4 Series included in with 3 Series numbers? What about M cars?
  - rconti 6y ago
    Good point. Since they specifically mention sedans, likely it's limited to 4 door 3 series, C class, A4 type cars, wagons/coupes/convertibles need not apply.
    - mulmen 6y ago
      Yeah the A4 and A5 seem comparable but Tesla only mentions the A6, a larger sedan like the 5 Series or E Class. I'd like to see the detailed numbers on this. Also, the 3 Series wagon seems like it would be included in these numbers?
      - rconti 6y ago
        If I were Tesla, I would absolutely exclude wagons, because it makes my numbers look worse, and IMO it's legitimate because it's a different body style (I'm a wagon lover, but I own a Model 3).
        mulmen 6y ago
        I can understand them excluding wagons if they did. The issue is I don't know what these numbers actually represent so it's hard to draw any conclusions. Is there somewhere with more detail on what numbers they actually used for the "Global premium vehicle sales" graph on page 8?
Klonoar 6y ago
Honest question: how does this factor in with BMW's leasing program? Most people I know (outside of... myself... lol) refuse to actually buy a BMW, and just lease it. Are these numbers included?
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  Teslas are still pretty new, but generally speaking leasing them is not a great choice. The terms are fine, but financially you are better off buying one and selling it after 3 years. They tend to hold their price a lot better than a Mercedes or a BMW.
  - jillesvangurp 6y ago
    That makes them a great choice for lease companies. Lease companies are popular for company cars in e.g. the Netherlands and the UK. EV adoption in that market is very high because of this reason. I agree it makes less sense for private ownership; though the lack of hassle associated with ownership is worth something to some people as well. Fully charged recently did an episode on second hand value of EVs. Basically, lease cars are sold in auctions and they indeed hold their value amazingly well. Most EVs produced since 2012 are still on the road and are still very decent value.
    - ogre_codes 6y ago
      There are definitely reasons leasing is appealing, dealing with trade ins and resale can be a big headache. I tend to hang onto vehicles for 7+ years regardless so it’s not a big issue here.
- LilBytes 6y ago
  Lease German, Buy Japenese/Korean/Asian. I've heard this many a time.

BluntleyHonest 6y ago

Modem 3 a premium sedan, well idiots will be idiots I guess, carry on the torch.

988747 6y ago

That's just cleverly chosen comparison point. The only "premium" thing about Teslas is their price. They have laughably low quality compared to top BMW or Audi models.

nixass 6y ago

Why is Model 3 even considered as a premium? What makes it premium comparing to established German holy trinity (BMW, Merc, Audi)? It's average car at best, and with its notorious build quality standards it's not even an average.

benhurmarcel 6y ago
The price makes it premium
- nixass 6y ago
  Let's call it bad value for money then
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
As noted elsewhere, I've put 70,000 miles on my Model 3. After driving a 328i for 20 years, the Tesla is more fun in every way. As for build quality, my maintenance so far is $850 for a windshield. Cuz... I drive it so fast all the time, pebbles chipped away at it until it cracked down the middle. That's it. I can also attest that operating costs are 1/4 the BMW. Energy costs, yes, but also $0 for brake pads (I'm at 90% after 70k miles), $0 for fluids (no oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, radiator flush, ...).
- nixass 6y ago
  So reading your comment, what makes it premium? Fun and cheaper maintenance?
  - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
    For reference, I put 230k miles on a 328i, 80k on an E430, 70k on a 2017 Model 3. The good: - Handling. Model 3 is sharper acceleration, flatter and faster curves, 4-wheel active traction control(<- this is amazing, it automatically corrects the car's position when breaking traction) - Sound System. Model 3 sound system is better than either of the other two. Moreover, it actually improved since I bought it through software upgrades. They even download new firmware into the amplifiers. - Comfort. The Tesla seat is amazingly comfortable. I drove for 9 hours on Sunday for example. Never felt fatigued, no soreness, no pressure points in my ass. In the other cars, which are also very comfortable, I'd at least have a sore lower back after that amount of time in the saddle. - Charging: Since Tesla has a captive charge station network, charging is a non-event. Back in to the stall and plug it in. It's fast and getting faster. No credit card input to futz with. Note that I don't have experience using other systems, but I've seen them collocated with Tesla chargers and I've seen users struggle trying to figure out how to get the juice flowing. The Not Good: - If the window is rolled down when you close the door, you can hear that it's not secured within the door (not premium). - The trunk doesn't lift when you unlatch it from the console (not premium). - Some carpeted seams are overlaid rather than joined. That seemed to be a miss in premium. Overall, I'd say they focused on the elements that matter most (drive, comfort, sound) and the lesser factors, while important, will be corrected over time (fingers crossed). FWIW, I did not label it as Premium. I don't know what I'd label it as, cuz I think BEVs are a different enough experience to have their own label. Just trying to offer some objectivity in this thread.
- bradfa 6y ago
  You should still change the brake fluid every few years. I don't know what Tesla recommends but most car manufacturers recommend brake fluid flushes every 2-5 years (the Germans generally recommend 2 year intervals, GM generally recommends 5 year intervals, the Japanese brands seem to recommend 3 year intervals). DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 fluid will absorb water on purpose and disperse it throughout the fluid. Over time if you do not flush out this water-contaminated fluid it'll start to cause corrosion inside the brake system.

systemvoltage 6y ago

What’s amazing is that just 5 years ago, it seemed like a distant goal. People were skeptical of Tesla in 2015 (rightfully so). Almost went bankrupt in 2017. They dug themselves out of there despite of Elon’s PR shenanigans. Pretty amazing I think! Now about that stock price, I’m not so sure. It’s like next 20 years are baked into $735/share price now.

dangus 6y ago
The inflated stock price is easy to explain: intangibles are part of the balance sheet. In my guesstimation, Tesla will be making electric cars with a range to dollar ratio that can’t possibly be matched by incumbents for the foreseeable future. VW and the rest are more capable of producing a refined car, but (again, my opinion) Tesla’s EV advantage is similar to the big three’s various inertial advantages that they enjoyed in the mid-20th century. Perhaps more US-specific: buying a Tesla over something like a VW ID.4 gives you the supercharger network. It will be years if not decades before the general open standard charging network can compete with that benefit of ownership.
- azinman2 6y ago
  So I just bought an ID.4 this weekend after seeing on HN on Friday that it launched in the US. I also test drove a Tesla Y just to double check Saturday morning before doing so. Tesla Y is for sure faster and the better drive. It's also like 10-15k more expensive and that's not even before VW's rebates. The interior was weird -- tiny headrests, tiny mirrors, and really poor back visibility. A giant screen in middle and nothing else wasn't particularly great, and I don't have CarPlay (I know Tesla has a lot of functionality in their system, but I'd personally rather drive it all from my phone to have a more continuous experience in car and out of car). On that screen was a 'video game'-ified representation of what Autopilot was seeing... not only distracting, but kept being wrong while I was stopped at a red light staring at it as it missed the cars in front of me and kept rapidly alternating what direction the incoming lane was going to turn. And that's driving the car? Scary! I don't care about being faster, the ID.4 is plenty fast. I also don't really care about 250mi versus 350mi range or whatever right now.. all are inconvenient for a super long trip. I just recently drove from SF to near Canada... that was a very long multi-day drive and I would for sure not want to have multiple 35m+ stops in addition to the long drive. Until the technology gets WAYYY better I'll just rent ICE cars for a very long drive. Until then 250mi is plenty to get around the Bay Area knowing I can just plugin at home overnight to recharge. VW has build a Electrify America charging network from a 2B settlement for their diesel emissions standards. If they're smart they'll capitalize on this and win much more in the long run by becoming Exxon AND a car company... their network isn't exclusive to their cars. With everyone coming online in the next couple years, Tesla is going to have very real competition. I don't think the areas that they're better at are quite as make/break for car decision making as they claim to be. Elon Musk himself certainly doesn't help as a very divisive figure (and was part of the reason I didn't want a Tesla).

asien 6y ago

> I find this to be a major milestone in the transition to BEV. This is an achievement. While I agree it would be great if we had 0 emission vehicles, today EV in US or Germany run largely of coal , hence battery production is anything but green... Thus I still don’t see the point of what’s called « Transition ». Climate change is real , but at the moment without nuclear fusion I fail to see how this is going to change anything it seems to be deporting the problem to be honest.

brianwawok 6y ago
Coal is 20% not most https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_power_in_the_United_Sta... It’s not an either or problem. It’s an also problem. Make power plants cleaner and make cars cleaner. Hit it from Both ends.
- asien 6y ago
  > Coal is 20% not most You’re right ! US has shifted from coal ... to Natural Gas ! I don’t think that this is solving the problem , natural gas comes from fracking ... but it’s definitely a small win knowing how big is America and how much less natural gas produces CO2.
  - _ph_ 6y ago
    Natural gas is already a big step as it only emits 2/3rds of the CO2 per kWh compared to coal (high hydrogen content). Also, gas power plants can be regulated faster than coal power plants, so they work much better together with wind/solar power and make the transition easier.
nrmitchi 6y ago
There are a ton of viable and productive energy production methods that at least start to address climate change between where we're at now and "nuclear fusion". Fission may have plenty of issues, but lets not pretend that the entire world is "fusion or bust".

ERD0L 6y ago

Model 3 is a premium sedan ? Oh :/ Where are my paint color options, ventilated seats ? What about parts for my local car shop ? Did they forgot the safety features unique to german cars ?

brianwawok 6y ago
Now compare 0-60 and infotainment systems. Is premium how fast the car goes, or how many paint colors it comes in? Different people have different requirements. You are likely paying over 100k to get a car as fast as a model 3.
- thrwyoilarticle 6y ago
  >You are likely paying over 100k to get a car as fast as a model 3. Define fast
  - 11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
    I believe they are talking about 0-60 times. Model 3 Performance in Track mode is #12 in this list[0]. The least you can pay for this version is $55k. #13 is a Jaguar XE SV Project at $188k #11 is a Bentley Bentayga at $160,000 #10 is an Acura NSX at $157,000 [0] https://www.motortrend.com/news/quickest-cars-motortrend-2019/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/quickest-cars-motortrend-201...
- nixass 6y ago
  > Now compare 0-60 What is this, kindergarten?
- ProAm 6y ago
  It's still not a premium car.
  - DeRock 6y ago
    Premium is defined by price, not your desired feature set.

t0mas88 6y ago

The model 3 really isn't a premium sedan. It's more like a mid range Skoda than an Audi, with a cheap plastic interior and pretty bad build quality. They sell very well because it's cheap and in many countries you get a great tax deal on them making it even cheaper. Which I'm really happy for because EVs help against climate change. But I'm also very happy I cancelled my pre-order and don't have to drive a model 3.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Skoda's have pretty good build quality nowadays.
grammarprofess 6y ago
So tell us what one should drive instead of a model 3?
- t0mas88 6y ago
  What you can buy instead is 99% based on personal preference, I cancelled the model 3 and got a BMW because I liked the few I had before. But my co-founder would never drive a BMW. He returned his second model S and got an Audi EV instead. Which is not a car I would pick. My point is that a model 3 isn't really a luxury car, it's an entry model and has the build quality and options that go with that.
  - dawnerd 6y ago
    So I don't get this. You bash the Model 3 for build quality but you support BMW which is notorious for having horrible reliability. I'd pick the car with just okay paint and maybe some not-so-perfect gaps over a car that I know is going to cost me thousands in maintenance.
    - Tepix 6y ago
      According to ADAC (in german) BMW is pretty good in terms of reliability. https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/adac-pannenstatistik/ https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrzeug/unfall-schaden-panne/a... They do mention battery issues with the BMW 5 series prior to 2010.

jocker12 6y ago

This is a very tricky presentation of the larger image. The document mentions the "Premium Sedan" category market, not the entire market. So looking at the Premium Sedan market share in the US (which is arguably the most important market in the world) the numbers show a 1% decline in sales for 2020 - "The midsized car segment continues to lose share in the US car market in 2020. Sales were down 22% in an overall market down 14%. As a result the share of midsized cars drops by 1 percentage point to 10.2%, and in absolute numbers, the 1.5 million sales make this the lowest year of this millennium and long before it." - from https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2020-midsized-cars/ https://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-analysis-2020-midsized... So while the premium sedan category (including Tesla 3) is declining overall, Tesla is reporting to its shareholders the "great achievement" of winning that sales declining race.

nickik 6y ago
If the whole market declines but your share of the overall market raises and you overtake everybody else in that market that is clearly an achievement. Given that this is literally the first mass market car by Tesla, achieving leading sales globally over comparable products by BMW and Mercedes is clearly pretty important. And as they said, they hope Model Y will hopefully be the best selling vehicle globally next year. This is important to point out after 5 years of FUD about how Tesla has no demand.
- jocker12 6y ago
  Selling more of the less selling cars is not an achievement by any means. All the other companies are changing production towards different other categories, but the “achievement” Tesla wants their shareholders to be happy about is that they sell more of the cars less and less people are buying. If you sell more horses worldwide out of the “four legged category” it has no relevance as long as less and less people are buying horses for transportation.
  - linsomniac 6y ago
    I'm not sure one years data point makes for a trend. Especially not 2020. I have no data to back it up, but it seems likely that the people who can afford a luxury car are also the people that could afford to stay home during the pandemic. Personally, I'm finding it hard to justify a new car when I'm 6 months overdue for an oil change and not even at half the miles. :-)

reducesuffering 6y ago

I'm surprised by how micro-managey Tesla is with their Model 3/Y prices. Most manufacturers release a static MSRP for that model year. However, Tesla the past year was dropping prices $500-$1,000 periodically. And then as of last month, has raised prices $500-$1,000 twice.

Geee 6y ago
They're balancing their production capacity with price. I.e. price that keeps delivery window not too long or short. They could sell them cheaper, but then they would be limited by manufacturing capacity.
ardit33 6y ago
Maybe they are doing A/B testing of the price?
- judge2020 6y ago
  In reality this is likely because they suspect the US EV tax credit extension to pass and they're slowly increasing the price to indirectly grab some of that as profit.
mlindner 6y ago
Is that in the US or Europe. In Europe they bounce it around a bit because of shipping costs from US and China fluctuating.
- reducesuffering 6y ago
  US
m463 6y ago
Now that you mention it - they're almost replicating the dealer experience. In the beginning Tesla's selling point was that they were not a dealer, you go to the showroom and there is no pressure because everyone pays the same price. Except with their pricing monkey business, you're replicating the same high-pressure "buy now before the price goes up"... for everyone. Aren't they over the hump? Can they get away from gym-membership stuff? Combine that with the variability of other nonsense - when will I get my car/truck? surprise! square steering wheel! etc... A true premium experience should treat people better, and ONLY inflict positive drama.

api 6y ago

Even if Tesla eventually failed, this is an achievement. They've fully validated the EV market. I highly doubt that we'd be seeing accelerating EV adoption like this without Tesla.

tonyedgecombe 6y ago
Nissan deserve some recognition as well, it's not just Tesla.
- api 6y ago
  I own a Leaf. They're great cars, sort of the electric alternative to the Honda Civic and more economical than Tesla, but they're not cool or sexy. Tesla made EVs cool and desirable for car people. Also the Tesla Roadster was slightly before the Leaf if my memory is correct. It was a super-expensive niche car but it showed what an EV can do. BTW my Leaf out-accelerates many muscular gasoline cars. The torque curve benefits of EVs are universal and apply even to wimpier EVs.
mensetmanusman 6y ago
Too many countries are banning ICE sales in the next decade. So they have at least a decade of life left.

rconti 6y ago

The E-class is an entirely different class from the Model 3 and 3 series. Maybe just a C-class typo. Pretty impressive, especially considering that the 3 series is a similar age (both ~2018). The C class is getting long in the tooth, though, dates to 2016.

mulmen 6y ago
It definitely looks like a typo. But the Audi A6 is also an equivalent to the BMW 5 Series or Mercedes E Class. The A5 seems like a better comparison to the Model 3. I wonder if the numbers are also wrong? Did they actually compare E Class and A6 sales instead of C Class and A5 sales? Are 4 Series included in with 3 Series numbers? What about M cars?
- rconti 6y ago
  Good point. Since they specifically mention sedans, likely it's limited to 4 door 3 series, C class, A4 type cars, wagons/coupes/convertibles need not apply.
  - mulmen 6y ago
    Yeah the A4 and A5 seem comparable but Tesla only mentions the A6, a larger sedan like the 5 Series or E Class. I'd like to see the detailed numbers on this. Also, the 3 Series wagon seems like it would be included in these numbers?
    - rconti 6y ago
      If I were Tesla, I would absolutely exclude wagons, because it makes my numbers look worse, and IMO it's legitimate because it's a different body style (I'm a wagon lover, but I own a Model 3).
      - mulmen 6y ago
        I can understand them excluding wagons if they did. The issue is I don't know what these numbers actually represent so it's hard to draw any conclusions. Is there somewhere with more detail on what numbers they actually used for the "Global premium vehicle sales" graph on page 8?

Klonoar 6y ago

Honest question: how does this factor in with BMW's leasing program? Most people I know (outside of... myself... lol) refuse to actually buy a BMW, and just lease it. Are these numbers included?

ogre_codes 6y ago
Teslas are still pretty new, but generally speaking leasing them is not a great choice. The terms are fine, but financially you are better off buying one and selling it after 3 years. They tend to hold their price a lot better than a Mercedes or a BMW.
- jillesvangurp 6y ago
  That makes them a great choice for lease companies. Lease companies are popular for company cars in e.g. the Netherlands and the UK. EV adoption in that market is very high because of this reason. I agree it makes less sense for private ownership; though the lack of hassle associated with ownership is worth something to some people as well. Fully charged recently did an episode on second hand value of EVs. Basically, lease cars are sold in auctions and they indeed hold their value amazingly well. Most EVs produced since 2012 are still on the road and are still very decent value.
  - ogre_codes 6y ago
    There are definitely reasons leasing is appealing, dealing with trade ins and resale can be a big headache. I tend to hang onto vehicles for 7+ years regardless so it’s not a big issue here.
LilBytes 6y ago
Lease German, Buy Japenese/Korean/Asian. I've heard this many a time.