10 ms·

After a remote year, tech’s shadow workforce barely hangs on

117 points by elsewhen 6y ago

breakfastduck 6y ago
This is basically the same as all other hospitality workers, no? Although these companies could very easily afford to keep these guys on, which is pretty shameful. Their role isn't to earn money for the company anyway. They are just a cost, it makes no difference if they're actually working or not.
- cheaprentalyeti 6y ago
  Just like having electricity present in the power outlets is a cost, and technically doesn't make the company any revenue. I mean, if you're going to perform the fashionable micromanagement. You can technically do without it, if you're using remote servers to face the customers. Your engineers could charge their laptops at home, use cellular hotspots to connect to the remote servers when they're in the office... Looking at some of the companies out there, I'm beginning to think they think they only need customers and no employees.
- sokoloff 6y ago
  A lot of these arrangements are independent companies who operate the cafeteria as a tenant renting (often subsidized) space in the same building. The revenue for those cafeterias comes from the customers and there are none.
- yibg 6y ago
  I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand yes a lot of the tech companies can afford it and probably won't impact the bottom line to keep paying them. On the other hand, why pay the cost if it's not required. I used to have a cleaner come once every 2 weeks pre covid. That's stopped now and I don't pay them anymore. Should I keep paying them to not come in?
  - Apocryphon 6y ago
    Ideally, the government would have a sufficient relief structure in place to do so. Practically, you already are paying them indirectly through your tax dollars going towards the stimulus and unemployment programs.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - D895n9o33436N42 6y ago
    People I know in Manhattan are still paying their cleaners even though there’s no more cleaning. These are fewer and fewer as folks permanently decamp from the city.
  - tlb 6y ago
    It impacts the company's bottom line by an amount precisely equal to their pay, payroll tax, and benefits. Because that's how bottom lines work. They're the summation of all the previous lines, +ve and -ve. Personally, I kept paying my cleaners, because my bottom line isn't that important to me. But it is (and should be) for companies.
    - ipaddr 6y ago
      Having a trusted cleaning staff available without going through a painful sourcing period can be worth the cost. Long term planning + goodwill and the expensive writeoff make it attractive.
      - BobbyJo 6y ago
        'Can' make it attractive. Even when you consider all of those it may not make sense financially.
      - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
        But if you don’t have that trusted connection already, there is no reason to keep paying a service for not sending someone over.
- joeraut 6y ago
  Some companies are still keeping them on. From the article: > [...]some of them—including Nvidia, as well as giants like Facebook and Google—continued to pay their service workers.
- john_moscow 6y ago
  It sounds like a heresy nowadays, but I think in order for society to be comfortable, there needs to be a strong feedback loop between reward (getting paid, getting promoted, getting attention from others) and doing something that others would willingly buy. I am pretty convinced that a lot of the tensions in our society are caused by the fact that many of the things we need on a daily basis are produced by corporations where the feedback already is massively diluted by the time it reaches individual replaceable instruction-following workers. Just paying people for doing nothing would only make it worse. Since people wouldn't see a way to feel recognized by mindfully creating something others need, they will look for other means of getting recognition. And in the current climate most of these ways are very divisive, since they involve forcibly taking something from another person (or forcing topics into their attention) rather than producing something others would want to buy. The tensions accelerated drastically when the COVID bailouts started and they will only get worse until we get most of the people back on track of putting their mind into producing value for others. Except, we would need to actually start enforcing antitrust and let a few behemoths crash to make that happen.
  - benibela 6y ago
    >I am pretty convinced that a lot of the tensions in our society are caused by the fact that many of the things we need on a daily basis are produced by corporations where the feedback already is massively diluted by the time it reaches individual replaceable instruction-following workers. This problem has been coined alienation from the product the workers make
neonate 6y ago
https://archive.is/ZsbSq https://archive.is/ZsbSq
- pineconewarrior 6y ago
  Thank you. I refuse to sign up for wired! Now if only we could get Reader Mode to work on archive.is links!
  - mrec 6y ago
    Firefox's reader view works just fine on the Wired article. You don't need to sign up for anything.
    - paranoidrobot 6y ago
      For me I only get a few paragraphs in the reader view.
      - CamperBob2 6y ago
        Hitting F5 after hitting F9 usually fixes this nicely.
      - dredmorbius 6y ago
        Try a reload, that sometimes works. (I've noticed this on other sites, not necessarily Wired.)
  - bckr 6y ago
    Reader Mode plugin works for me on this link.
pts_ 6y ago
Indian government categorizes outsourced software engineers working on their premises under facilities too. So these shadow workers actually worked remotely.
iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago
When it was short term, I can see the argument both for decency and for a smoother return of keeping people on. I was surprised that my employer pretty much instantly dumped all the facilities related staff when we went to wfh. But now that it has become structural, it's hard to fault places for adapting. I read comments about people continuing to pay their barbers or cleaners. Are they just going to keep doing that? At some point, and where I am it was probably once we realized we'd still be wfh at the end of last summer, I think it's perfectly reasonable to restructure the business to reflect reality. People doing jobs that aren't needed will realistically need to adapt. When things change back, companies and the labor market can adapt back.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- cheeri0 6y ago
  People doing jobs that aren't needed will realistically need to adapt. That doesn't sound pompous to you? This is all because of an extreme overreaction to covid. Are you so weak you would sell out your people, your society, your culture, your children, your freedom, I could go on. You would trade all that for extra comfort and isolation. To me this seems like truly disparaging behavior.
  - DJBunnies 6y ago
    Suggesting that folks with needless jobs ought to adapt isn’t pompous, it’s realistic.
    - newsclues 6y ago
      Lots of needless jobs that should disappear but it seems like there is a big difference in class.
    - wayoutthere 6y ago
      My needless job pays me a shitload of money and I work maybe 10 hours a week. Nobody notices my output is crap because my job doesn’t need to exist. If you’re privileged enough you can do nothing and still get paid for it. So yeah, it’s maybe a little pompous when you grasp the inequality of the situation. Is being able to talk like an overeducated white person really worth that much?
ralphc 6y ago
I retired in 2017 but I worked for a large company that rented an entire 18-story building and many floors of neighboring buildings. Like many buildings it had a card, candy, snack shop not owned by the company. Also, in the multi-level parking garage there was corner rented out to a car detailing place. These people aren't even covered by the company itself, they were remoras on the shark. When the pandemic hit and the building cleared out, I thought about these businesses and how they're basically wiped out.
alsetmusic 6y ago
I love reading about workers unionizing and getting guaranteed pay through the end of the year. But it’s ass backwards that we question whether it’s fair to ask this of corporations. It’s great that some do. But we should expect government to provide services and care for its citizenry. To be clear, at a time when I’m working from home with reduced cost of living (no commute, not really eating out, and reduced spending on entertainment), I want my tax dollars to go to to those who aren't able to do the same. Pay for these workers to take care of their kids’ needs without worry about what news is coming tomorrow.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  >question whether it’s fair to ask this of corporations When company A makes the moral choice to do so and B doesn't, 'investors' will favor B in every case. This is similar to how Costco is criticised for having a 'low' margin and 'good' compensation for all of their staff[]. The tens of millions of people not earning a living wage is a failure of policy that is the result of unfettered greed. [] Costco starting compensation is not a livable wage for the cities most of their stores are in. Their compensation is only good in comparison to the average compensation for jobs with similar requirements.
  - elcritch 6y ago
    Many investors might not value Costco for those reasons but not all. It's notable the Berkshire Hathaway only recently divested their Costco shares but only after holding them for many years and even sharing corporate board members [1]. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gurufocus/2020/11/17/warren-buffett-buys-6-stocks-in-3rd-quarter-dumps-costco/?sh=1c05c1712eb1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/gurufocus/2020/11/17/warren-buf...
  - refurb 6y ago
    You seem to be arguing against yourself. Costco is paying a livable wage, having great sales and their investors are happy. So basically the opposite of your argument.
  - jessedhillon 6y ago
yunohn 6y ago
This is a very vague article, focusing on a single person who was employed by Verizon (not sure why they’re big tech). The same person says she’s jealous of her friends at actual big tech (google, fb, nvidia) who are continuing to pay service workers. There are no other companies named as examples. The byline and headline, as well most of the content implies the usual big tech bashing, but they couldn’t find real examples??
camillomiller 6y ago
The biggest argument for universal income: avoiding economies of dependency for low skilled people. Would work only if paired with re-skilling, though, because people get depressed if they just do nothing.
- Laarlf 6y ago
  I have a great solution to that problem: give the people who work money. Crazy, right? Seriously though: UBI would encourage more working without registration. What you can already see with students where their parents pay their education. Often times they just work on the side "illegally". And a whole lot of other issues that come with UBI. Additional government dependency and so on. Advocates for UBI are like advocates for roundabouts really. If properly planned it could be a non consensual help. But reality does not plan well.
emouryto 6y ago
This reads like a dystopian novel. People expect this and that from corporation, they should share their wealth, etc. You have a STATE! USE IT! People are lost and hurting and they are looking at corporations to save them?! How long before a FAANG badge is worth more than a passport from any country? "Son, you learn real good and perhaps you will get a tech citizenship and escape this country".

117 points by elsewhen 6y ago

This is basically the same as all other hospitality workers, no? Although these companies could very easily afford to keep these guys on, which is pretty shameful. Their role isn't to earn money for the company anyway. They are just a cost, it makes no difference if they're actually working or not.

cheaprentalyeti 6y ago
Just like having electricity present in the power outlets is a cost, and technically doesn't make the company any revenue. I mean, if you're going to perform the fashionable micromanagement. You can technically do without it, if you're using remote servers to face the customers. Your engineers could charge their laptops at home, use cellular hotspots to connect to the remote servers when they're in the office... Looking at some of the companies out there, I'm beginning to think they think they only need customers and no employees.
sokoloff 6y ago
A lot of these arrangements are independent companies who operate the cafeteria as a tenant renting (often subsidized) space in the same building. The revenue for those cafeterias comes from the customers and there are none.
yibg 6y ago
I'm not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand yes a lot of the tech companies can afford it and probably won't impact the bottom line to keep paying them. On the other hand, why pay the cost if it's not required. I used to have a cleaner come once every 2 weeks pre covid. That's stopped now and I don't pay them anymore. Should I keep paying them to not come in?
- Apocryphon 6y ago
  Ideally, the government would have a sufficient relief structure in place to do so. Practically, you already are paying them indirectly through your tax dollars going towards the stimulus and unemployment programs.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- D895n9o33436N42 6y ago
  People I know in Manhattan are still paying their cleaners even though there’s no more cleaning. These are fewer and fewer as folks permanently decamp from the city.
- tlb 6y ago
  It impacts the company's bottom line by an amount precisely equal to their pay, payroll tax, and benefits. Because that's how bottom lines work. They're the summation of all the previous lines, +ve and -ve. Personally, I kept paying my cleaners, because my bottom line isn't that important to me. But it is (and should be) for companies.
  - ipaddr 6y ago
    Having a trusted cleaning staff available without going through a painful sourcing period can be worth the cost. Long term planning + goodwill and the expensive writeoff make it attractive.
    - BobbyJo 6y ago
      'Can' make it attractive. Even when you consider all of those it may not make sense financially.
    - seanmcdirmid 6y ago
      But if you don’t have that trusted connection already, there is no reason to keep paying a service for not sending someone over.
joeraut 6y ago
Some companies are still keeping them on. From the article: > [...]some of them—including Nvidia, as well as giants like Facebook and Google—continued to pay their service workers.
john_moscow 6y ago
It sounds like a heresy nowadays, but I think in order for society to be comfortable, there needs to be a strong feedback loop between reward (getting paid, getting promoted, getting attention from others) and doing something that others would willingly buy. I am pretty convinced that a lot of the tensions in our society are caused by the fact that many of the things we need on a daily basis are produced by corporations where the feedback already is massively diluted by the time it reaches individual replaceable instruction-following workers. Just paying people for doing nothing would only make it worse. Since people wouldn't see a way to feel recognized by mindfully creating something others need, they will look for other means of getting recognition. And in the current climate most of these ways are very divisive, since they involve forcibly taking something from another person (or forcing topics into their attention) rather than producing something others would want to buy. The tensions accelerated drastically when the COVID bailouts started and they will only get worse until we get most of the people back on track of putting their mind into producing value for others. Except, we would need to actually start enforcing antitrust and let a few behemoths crash to make that happen.
- benibela 6y ago
  >I am pretty convinced that a lot of the tensions in our society are caused by the fact that many of the things we need on a daily basis are produced by corporations where the feedback already is massively diluted by the time it reaches individual replaceable instruction-following workers. This problem has been coined alienation from the product the workers make

neonate 6y ago

https://archive.is/ZsbSq https://archive.is/ZsbSq

pineconewarrior 6y ago
Thank you. I refuse to sign up for wired! Now if only we could get Reader Mode to work on archive.is links!
- mrec 6y ago
  Firefox's reader view works just fine on the Wired article. You don't need to sign up for anything.
  - paranoidrobot 6y ago
    For me I only get a few paragraphs in the reader view.
    - CamperBob2 6y ago
      Hitting F5 after hitting F9 usually fixes this nicely.
    - dredmorbius 6y ago
      Try a reload, that sometimes works. (I've noticed this on other sites, not necessarily Wired.)
- bckr 6y ago
  Reader Mode plugin works for me on this link.

pts_ 6y ago

Indian government categorizes outsourced software engineers working on their premises under facilities too. So these shadow workers actually worked remotely.

iujjkfjdkkdkf 6y ago

When it was short term, I can see the argument both for decency and for a smoother return of keeping people on. I was surprised that my employer pretty much instantly dumped all the facilities related staff when we went to wfh. But now that it has become structural, it's hard to fault places for adapting. I read comments about people continuing to pay their barbers or cleaners. Are they just going to keep doing that? At some point, and where I am it was probably once we realized we'd still be wfh at the end of last summer, I think it's perfectly reasonable to restructure the business to reflect reality. People doing jobs that aren't needed will realistically need to adapt. When things change back, companies and the labor market can adapt back.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cheeri0 6y ago
People doing jobs that aren't needed will realistically need to adapt. That doesn't sound pompous to you? This is all because of an extreme overreaction to covid. Are you so weak you would sell out your people, your society, your culture, your children, your freedom, I could go on. You would trade all that for extra comfort and isolation. To me this seems like truly disparaging behavior.
- DJBunnies 6y ago
  Suggesting that folks with needless jobs ought to adapt isn’t pompous, it’s realistic.
  - newsclues 6y ago
    Lots of needless jobs that should disappear but it seems like there is a big difference in class.
  - wayoutthere 6y ago
    My needless job pays me a shitload of money and I work maybe 10 hours a week. Nobody notices my output is crap because my job doesn’t need to exist. If you’re privileged enough you can do nothing and still get paid for it. So yeah, it’s maybe a little pompous when you grasp the inequality of the situation. Is being able to talk like an overeducated white person really worth that much?

ralphc 6y ago

I retired in 2017 but I worked for a large company that rented an entire 18-story building and many floors of neighboring buildings. Like many buildings it had a card, candy, snack shop not owned by the company. Also, in the multi-level parking garage there was corner rented out to a car detailing place. These people aren't even covered by the company itself, they were remoras on the shark. When the pandemic hit and the building cleared out, I thought about these businesses and how they're basically wiped out.

alsetmusic 6y ago

I love reading about workers unionizing and getting guaranteed pay through the end of the year. But it’s ass backwards that we question whether it’s fair to ask this of corporations. It’s great that some do. But we should expect government to provide services and care for its citizenry. To be clear, at a time when I’m working from home with reduced cost of living (no commute, not really eating out, and reduced spending on entertainment), I want my tax dollars to go to to those who aren't able to do the same. Pay for these workers to take care of their kids’ needs without worry about what news is coming tomorrow.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
>question whether it’s fair to ask this of corporations When company A makes the moral choice to do so and B doesn't, 'investors' will favor B in every case. This is similar to how Costco is criticised for having a 'low' margin and 'good' compensation for all of their staff[]. The tens of millions of people not earning a living wage is a failure of policy that is the result of unfettered greed. [] Costco starting compensation is not a livable wage for the cities most of their stores are in. Their compensation is only good in comparison to the average compensation for jobs with similar requirements.
- elcritch 6y ago
  Many investors might not value Costco for those reasons but not all. It's notable the Berkshire Hathaway only recently divested their Costco shares but only after holding them for many years and even sharing corporate board members [1]. 1: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gurufocus/2020/11/17/warren-buffett-buys-6-stocks-in-3rd-quarter-dumps-costco/?sh=1c05c1712eb1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/gurufocus/2020/11/17/warren-buf...
- refurb 6y ago
  You seem to be arguing against yourself. Costco is paying a livable wage, having great sales and their investors are happy. So basically the opposite of your argument.
- jessedhillon 6y ago

yunohn 6y ago

This is a very vague article, focusing on a single person who was employed by Verizon (not sure why they’re big tech). The same person says she’s jealous of her friends at actual big tech (google, fb, nvidia) who are continuing to pay service workers. There are no other companies named as examples. The byline and headline, as well most of the content implies the usual big tech bashing, but they couldn’t find real examples??

camillomiller 6y ago

The biggest argument for universal income: avoiding economies of dependency for low skilled people. Would work only if paired with re-skilling, though, because people get depressed if they just do nothing.

Laarlf 6y ago
I have a great solution to that problem: give the people who work money. Crazy, right? Seriously though: UBI would encourage more working without registration. What you can already see with students where their parents pay their education. Often times they just work on the side "illegally". And a whole lot of other issues that come with UBI. Additional government dependency and so on. Advocates for UBI are like advocates for roundabouts really. If properly planned it could be a non consensual help. But reality does not plan well.

emouryto 6y ago

This reads like a dystopian novel. People expect this and that from corporation, they should share their wealth, etc. You have a STATE! USE IT! People are lost and hurting and they are looking at corporations to save them?! How long before a FAANG badge is worth more than a passport from any country? "Son, you learn real good and perhaps you will get a tech citizenship and escape this country".