30 ms·

SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, charged in $60M fraud scheme

436 points by ic0n0cl4st 6y ago

stephenr 6y ago
Sounds like a shitty place to work.
ketamine__ 6y ago
What happened to this page? https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 Archived version: https://archive.is/cbIIT https://archive.is/cbIIT
- jimhi 6y ago
  Most favourable assumption: They have a policy to remove companies from their network and site that violate certain rules - like fraud. Least favourable assumption: They are doing damage control with their association. This article does not even mention Y Combinator initially funded them.
  - tpmx 6y ago
    Could also be: removed becaused the company is defunct.
    - jimhi 6y ago
      They don't remove pages for inactive companies. Check the parent's archive link for what that looks like.
- WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
  I mean, makes sense. Can we get a new category for "Fraud" under ycombinator.com/companies?
- dang 6y ago
  I have zero inside information about this but since YC ejects companies that break its ethics code, it's possible that we disowned this company quite a while ago. Edit: I just checked an internal page that I go to when I need info about a YC startup and it says "Removed", so I think that's what happened, and probably rather early in whatever process led to this outcome.
  - pedalpete 6y ago
    Wow! That's really interesting. I was typing in some random numbers looking at what other companies were in this directory, how large it went, etc etc, and I hit quite a few of these missing pages. I wonder if all of those companies got ejected for breaking the code of ethics, or if there are other reasons?
    - dang 6y ago
      I'm afraid I have no idea—I'm pretty far removed from that side of the business—but my guess would be that it's probably more complicated and there are likely a lot of different possible reasons. YC has funded thousands of startups, so there's inevitably a long tail of weird cases. People tend not to take that into account when assessing particular datapoints.
duxup 6y ago
>Richman was even named an "innovator" winner in Goop's "The Greater goop Awards" and at its peak, uBiome was valued at $600 million. Considering how questionable Goop is that the fraud seems about right. In the meantime the whole medical start up where they suddenly can test, for cheaper, better, etc seems to regularly come up short on the actual testing, results, or even just valid use cases. Much like Theranos nobody ever seems to explain how these kind of companies can just suddenly test for more so easily where the existing medical industry just hasn't been able to. Of all the things that the start up ... "system" can do well I kinda question their ability to suddenly become amazing complex medical device inventors / scientists. I recall some folks who work in that industry and they noted that creating new tests and diagnostics and equipment is often incredibly slow and iterative. That doesn't seem very start up-ish. The magical breakthroughs are rare.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Scientists don't know what this number means. Doctors don't either. And yet this number from a test result from a company in SF means something to someone in SF. And no one can figure out why.
  - bioinformatics 6y ago
    We (scientists) know this number, be Academia, clinical, etc. After all, we have grants and budgets to follow and we are skeptic of anything too expensive or cheap.
    - ketamine__ 6y ago
      I was referring to biome tests that tell patients nothing.
- rexreed 6y ago
  Remember the wave of all those "smart" Silicon Valley CEOs who were so convinced they could build a better ventilator at the height of the COVID ventilator shortage? All those folks who thought they could just throw together their engineering knowledge and hacking skills without ever having experience building a medical device? This sort of tech hubris is all over the tech ecosystem. Folks who believe their startup prowess means they can tackle any medical device with fake-it-till-you-make-it or fail-fast-break-often mentality that often fails in reality.
quercusa 6y ago
Still compared to Theranos!
- duxup 6y ago
  They were right all along... sadly.
- happycube 6y ago
  Nah, $60mil is nothing by comparison.
  - duxup 6y ago
    My first thought was "well at least it was only 60 million".
tpmx 6y ago
> received funding from Silicon Valley investors like 8VC in San Francisco and Andreessen Horowitz in Menlo Park, which hold 22% and 10% stakes in uBiome, respectively Shouldn't we expect long-established and well-respected VCs to do a very heavy due diligence, both initially and perhaps even more importantly continously to ensure something like this doesn't happen? Especially in the health field. I mean, the VC brands are used as a stamp of approval.
- maxcan 6y ago
  > Shouldn't we expect long-established and well-respected VCs to do a very heavy due diligince, both initially and continously to ensure something like this doesn't happen? I mean, the VC brands are used as a stamp of approval. You must be new here.. shrug
  - tpmx 6y ago
    New to SV VC, sure.
- teraflop 6y ago
  The complaint says that the founders told investors that their model had been cleared by legal counsel, when in fact their counsel had warned them that it was "risky" and potentially fraudulent. This might be a naive question, but... Shouldn't the lawyers have been involved in the investment rounds somehow? I get that there's attorney-client confidentiality and all, but wouldn't you expect them to at least be able to say "yes, we've looked at the pitch deck and confirmed that there's nothing materially false that we know of"? And shouldn't the lack of such assurance be an immediate red flag?
  - cj 6y ago
    Lawyers (of the company) typically don't get involved in reviewing pitch decks for accuracy at least in the early stages. And even if they did, the lawyers only know what the founders tell them. Additionally, lawyers typically avoid asking probing questions of founders. especially if there is risk that the answer they get may be troubling - it's much easier to defend and advise a client when you're not explicitly aware of every dirty secret. But you're not totally off base. It's absolutely the responsibility of VCs to do their own due diligence. VCs usually are investing other people's money. It's not a good look for VCs to invest in scams, so VCs typically do some degree of due diligence (which could be virtually zero diligence at seed stage / Series A, to quite a lot of diligence at later stages as the amount of money involved increases).
nceqs3 6y ago
YC Backed!
- tpmx 6y ago
  Early and with a small amount. Still, there's the brand effect... https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 (404) https://blog.ycombinator.com/ubiome-yc-s14-raises-4-dollars-dot-5m-from-angel-investors-andreessen-horowitz-to-crowdsource-microbiome-research/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/ubiome-yc-s14-raises-4-dollars-...
- ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
  Not too surprising. YC’s more successful companies do have a history of skirting (Uber, AirBNB). When I worked at PagerDuty, some of the less ethical aspects of the company (like the product was initially developed while interns at Amazon) were explained to me with this phrase, verbatim: “Paul told us to be naughty, but not too naughty.”
  - teraflop 6y ago
    Don't forget about that time YC funded a smuggling ring: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286
    - ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
      I think every traveler has this idea, explores it, realizes it is illegal and moves on.
      - tpmx 6y ago
        I guess it's a sign of a true startup person to see that while it may be illegal, it will allow growth?
      - refurb 6y ago
        This is already a business though? Not high visibility, but there are companies that hire people to take packages on international flights. Of course it’s all above board, everything is declared, duty is paid, etc.
mgraczyk 6y ago
SEC complaint: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2021/comp-pr2021-49.pdf https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2021/comp-pr2021-4...
- greenyoda 6y ago
  And, as noted in the SEC's press release (linked from the SFGATE article), there are also criminal charges: "In a parallel action, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California today announced criminal charges against Richman and Apte." Press release from U.S. Attorney’s Office: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/ubiome-co-founders-charged-federal-securities-health-care-fraud-conspiracies https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/ubiome-co-founders-char... Criminal indictment: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/press-release/file/1377481/download https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/press-release/file/1377481...
jacobsimon 6y ago
Before it was announced that uBiome was committing insurance fraud a few years back, my friend and I compared our test results and found that our very detailed, 10-page personalized biome reports were completely identical except for our names. So I believe they were also just completely fabricating their test results from the beginning, and some of the employees at the company must have known this.
- ficklepickle 6y ago
  It's a poop-scapade! Did you both have newspaper and wolf hair in your excrement?
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >some of the employees at the company must have known this. what always fascinates me isn't the people who are in on in but the people who are kind of on the edge. From the Theranos case I remember employees not being allowed to enter rooms, secret chat rooms, people being followed by security etc... like, how can you work for a company like this and have a sort of Twilight Zone or Kafka novel experience for years and just be okay with it?
  - Judgmentality 6y ago
    > like, how can you work for a company like this and have a sort of Twilight Zone or Kafka novel experience for years and just be okay with it? Realistically, the best and brightest left early and it's the people afraid of losing their jobs that feel compelled to shut up and toe the line.
    - kbenson 6y ago
      It would be easier to identify these places if it was the best and the brightest that left. Those with confidence and/or the financial stability to not worry about it can leave. There are plenty of very good and very bright people that don't fall into those categories for one reason or another (young, external factors making it risky to leave, etc).
xyzzy21 6y ago
Here's a hint: if you are starting up ANY company involving any type of biotech or medical application and there are no people with STEM degrees running it or on the board, 90% chance it's fraudulent. STEM smarts is not something you get out of a crackerjack box. And especially NOT with biotech or medical. Exactly like with Theranos, ANYONE who invested in this and didn't see this coming or do enough due diligence to, simply deserves to be fleeced!! No sympathy.
- Thriptic 6y ago
  Similarly, if the company won't validate their tech in peer reviewed journals, they are full of shit. I strongly suspected fraud years before it was acknowledged because Theranos was citing "trade secrets" for why they couldn't release any data about their tech. We don't do trade secrets in medicine or science, and this is precisely why.
  - brianwawok 6y ago
    There’s no trade secret anywhere in US medicine? I can just walk in the factory and get a tour?
    - Thriptic 6y ago
      You are of course allowed to employ SOME obfuscation in research process, but you aren't allowed to shield your product and claims from scrutiny behind them. At the end of the day you have to validate that your product can do what you say it can do publicly through independent analysis, you have to run public trials against existing tech, and you have to explain how your tech works, which Theranos never did. They fought against scrutiny from the greater scientific community from day one; "just trust me it works" is not sufficient proof in science. This is one reason why we have the patent structure, so people can publicly disclose data for validation purposes and still make a substantial profit.
    - huitzitziltzin 6y ago
      You can’t walk into the factory but certainly you can look at a patented drug and get a formula, for example. The Wikipedia article about Sovaldi (sofosbuvir - a Hepatitis C drug) contains the exact chemical formula. Plus the clinical trial process is extensive. It would be much harder in the present regulatory regime to have a new BS prescription drug than a new BS testing startup, like this one or Theranos. (Old drugs are a little different - some were grandfathered into the current testing regime and evidence for their effectiveness is in some cases limited.) Certainly there are trade secrets in medicine, but not everywhere.
sokoloff 6y ago
Now twice compared to Theranos.
xipho 6y ago
This is interesting because uBiome was at the time described (NYT, blogs, etc.) as a way for citizen-scientists to contribute to the scientific process, submit your poop, contribute to science. Pre-emptively, yes there are (very) many problems with the scientific process as it currently happens, but this is a relativley new class of things "citizen science + private industry" that is definitely going to take some time to smooth out. In part the scientific community is likely somewhat ignorant as to the promises of the startup culture, and I suspect they will definitely become more cautious promoting these types of collaborations as time goes on.
- astrange 6y ago
  There are competitors to uBiome that are still going (Viome, DayTwo) and are possibly not scams. I did try uBiome because I dunno, I was bored. It seemed to give legitimate results (not the same thing every time) but the amount of "material" you submit was so small it can't have had much signal in it.
  - Plastikdusche 6y ago
    Actually thought the article was about viome at first lol
hiyer 6y ago
So it's comparable to Theranos in more ways than one.
peter_d_sherman 6y ago
>SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, charged in $60M fraud scheme Hmmm... I believe there's a joke in all of this... Something having to do with that old expression about when "something" hits the fan...
- Delk 6y ago
  Not being from SV (or from the U.S.), I initially read the SF as "science fiction". I don't know if their (possible) problem is just in money handling or the service, but it would have been kind of funny if the potential fraud had been that the service was all make-believe.
rexreed 6y ago
Fraud in the startup world is a lot more prevalent than might be well known. NS8, Communiclique, Lordstown Motors, Trustify, and so many have come to light in the last year. Investors don't do enough due diligence and trust their own gut too much. [0] https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-162 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-162 [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2020/10/29/fraud-software-company-ns8-files-bankruptcy-after-ceo-arrest/?sh=4c1f9a9d382e https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2020/10/29/fraud-sof... [2] https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/california-business-man-sentenced-prison-25-million-fraud https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/california-business-man... [3] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/lordstown-motors-accused-of-fraud-in-shareholder-lawsuit/ar-BB1eJRiz https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/lordstown-motors-a... [4] https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdal/pr/founder-lee-county-based-company-pleads-guilty-securities-fraud https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdal/pr/founder-lee-county-base... [5] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sentencing-set-alabama-man-2m-scam-63313780 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sentencing-set-alabama-m...
- rsj_hn 6y ago
  People lie about having a startup all the time , or perhaps they incorporate somewhere but lie about having customers/products/employees - all those pesky ingredients necessary to actually have a business. I wouldn't exactly call that fraud in the "startup world", but rather fraud in the investment world, as the goal is to bilk investors. This type of fraud is very common whenever something reaches the public consciousness, but the swarm of conmen selling X doesn't have much to do with the real startup eco-system anymore than someone selling you a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge is a fraud in the bridge world.
  - zeruch 6y ago
    " I wouldn't exactly call that fraud in the "startup world", but rather fraud in the investment world, as the goal is to bilk investors." A noteworthy (and mostly overlooked) distinction.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
jeffgreco 6y ago
Adult Swim had the best take on Silicon Valley poop tech: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
orthecreedence 6y ago
This is why I don't trust my feces with anybody but Smart Pipe [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  That like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
igammarays 6y ago
They should've claimed to be AI-powered, then nobody would've called their shit. Things get especially murky with AI, as no one understands it, and it's hard to prove outright fraud. I've seen this firsthand: a YC-backed startup I worked for which advertised an "AI-powered" background check literally was a bunch of if-statements and pseudo-random guesses which didn't even provide the same results for identical inputs.
- tmpz22 6y ago
  cough Triblebyte cough "AI-driven" recruiting
- kergonath 6y ago
  Powered by AI in the blockchain.
  - osrec 6y ago
    Don't forget to throw in a bit of machine learning and deep learning. And issue some sort of cryptocurrency while you're at it. That'll really bring in the investors. /s
valuearb 6y ago
I feel like naming your child Sunshine is just setting them up for some kind of delusional life choices like fraud.
yalogin 6y ago
The Theranos lady is yet to face consequences for her fraud and since this is financial fraud, there is every chance she might plead guilty and evade any jail time. In such a scenario there is every possible incentive for copy cats to emerge. She is not the first fraudster but feels like the first one to cheat startup investors at such a large scale.
- ipsum2 6y ago
  > Holmes settled the charges by paying a $500,000 fine, returning 18.9 million shares to the company, relinquishing her voting control of Theranos, and being barred from serving as an officer or director of a public company for ten years Besides her name being synonymous with fraud, these seem like consequences to me. Also, her criminal case hasn't even taken place yet. (Scheduled for Aug 2021)
  - sombremesa 6y ago
    > barred from serving as an officer or director of a public company for ten years So technically Theranos Pt. 2 is still on the cards for her.
- FounderBurr 6y ago
  I’m guessing she still wakes up in a beautiful room on thousand thread count sheets. Oh the suffering.
- koheripbal 6y ago
  > is yet to face consequences Aside from the destruction of her career (justified), it is extremely unlikely that she won't face very serious consequences given the mountain of evidence. It's also strange that you think "consequences" are not meaningful if they do not include jail time. Non-violent offenders spending time in jail is not the mark of a healthy society. Financial punishments, travel restrictions, restitution, community service, probationary requirements, future joblessness - all of these are "real" punishments. It is absolutely still a deterrent to anyone thinking of "copy-cat" her failure. She will likely not emerge from this with anything other than personal bankruptcy, and ongoing non-disposable restitution. What is the point of incarceration of non-violent offenders? Let the legal system work before you lay judgement on it. It is intentionally slow in order to be deliberate and consistent. I don't subscribe to the mob-mentality that non-violent white collar offenders deserve long jail sentences.
stefan_ 6y ago
Where are the indictments for the investors on the board that had oversight?
tttioo12345 6y ago
Early employee, AMA!
- staunch 6y ago
  Was the technology real?
  - ybiomepoopthrow 6y ago
    That’s a hard question. Zac and Jessica fired people often and required things be done their way, which a was usually wrong or substandard. The result was that your poop was actually sequenced, but the results weren’t trustable
    - victor9000 6y ago
      Why was there so much turnover?
      - tttioo12345 6y ago
        The criminal behavior outlined in the indictment is completely inline with their other behavior. They always cut corners and misrepresented things, it just took a while to do so in a way that violated laws. I think you can look at the Trump White House for an example of a place with a lot of turnover that also had criminal conduct. Most people were fired for invented reasons or whims. Other people realized how toxic the founders were, and left.
    - ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
      A comment above indicates two people got identical test result reports with a very long report. This seems unlikely unless either: - the system made specific predictions with very little data such that two people could get the same prediction and report simply bc they shared a few poop attributes that were key in the prediction (which would imply a very very bad model) Or - the reports were fake Can you speak to this?
trhway 6y ago
>Apte and Richman married in 2019 so Theranos. Having a couple in the leadership is among the worst things for the business. Any chance for even minimum reality check is gone, and instead there is synergetic self-misleadings-amplification and mutually reinforced bubble detached from reality. We had at some point an SVP and a chief architect couple - it was just a twilight, there was completely no way to subject business decisions to technical reality cross-check and vice-verse, and it was a hilarious show how the managers/PMs/directors/etc. were bowing down to that chief architect ... I though wonder - how and why would one do a scam in poop testing. I mean - why not just collect the poop and test it. Profit! Sprinkle some social on top and you have a fat unicorn.
- dilyevsky 6y ago
  Worked our ok for lucas arts, kaspersky and probably some others. There are plenty of fraud out there where leadership is not in a relationship
- natosaichek 6y ago
  I mean... they did collect the poop and test it. The fraud was allegedly in double-billing samples, lying to investors about the riskiness of the business and forging the credentials of doctors to get more samples to test.
- tmpz22 6y ago
  Also WeWork! > Rebekah Victoria Neumann (née Paltrow; born February 26, 1978) is an American entrepreneur and businesswoman. Until September 22, 2019, she served as WeWork's chief brand and impact officer and CEO of WeGrow.
__michaelg 6y ago
»SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, compared to Theranos again«
mastazi 6y ago
I'm pretty sure that there was a Tim & Eric sketch about a poop-testing startup... sometimes reality surpasses parody
smogcutter 6y ago
“SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, continues to be compared to Theranos”
- coolreader18 6y ago
  "It's like Theranos but if Theranos was legit" "Wait, no, it's just like Theranos"
breck 6y ago
I bought one of these and sent in the kit. I never got the results, they said there was a technical glitch IIRC and I needed to do it again, but everything up until that point was really well done. This was probably 2016-2017. I have no other details, other than I don’t think the alleged crimes committed by them or Theranos are nearly as bad as the ones committed by big pharma and uspto and the rest of the healthcare industry. The whole thing is an f’ing sad joke. So I guess my $200 for the ubiome went down the tube, but what about the $1,800 that HMSA just tried to bill me for going to the doctor for a COVID test last February? How about the 500,000 lives lost to the opioid epidemic? Are any feds investigating USPTO, who was Purdue’s partner in crime? Nah, don’t think so. Let’s go after some small fish in the pond instead. I blame the 30 something entrepreneurs who grew up in this toxic space a lot less than the 60 year old healthcare execs and government officials who created our f’d up system that we are all suffering from. If you want to avoid the mistakes of both Theranos, uBiome, and big pharma here's the key strategy: avoid secrecy and #imaginaryProperty at all costs. It puts the patients last and is bad for the world.
- ramraj07 6y ago
  “ but what about” - a quote from your reply: does that ring a bell to you about why your argument seems specious at best or misleading at worst?
  - benatkin 6y ago
    I think this could be an instance of the fallacy fallacy. Just because what about arguments are often unwarranted doesn't mean they are in every case. In particular, the health care and pharma industries are driving up the cost of doing business, so it's fair to ask why there's a scandal when a startup accidentally misleads and overcharges, while it's business as usual for Big Medicine? https://effectiviology.com/fallacy-fallacy/ https://effectiviology.com/fallacy-fallacy/
    - totalZero 6y ago
      While cute, this is false. "Argument from fallacy" is the fallacy whereby you assert that the conclusion is false because the reasoning is false. GP doesn't assert that the conclusion is necessarily false, and in fact very specifically qualifies his language to the reasoning. Webster's gives "fallacious" as a synonym for "specious."
riwsky 6y ago
“SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, here again compared to Theranos”
pedalpete 6y ago
I met Zach when he first started uBiome and moved to Chile. He was pationate about what he was building, and about the opportunity and impact it could have on the world. This was 2011, so he was in the very early stages. If I recall correctly, he was calling uBiome the 23&Me of your gut biome instead of DNA. He was absolutely the last person I would expect to be caught up in something like this, and when the news first broke a few years ago, I reached out as an act of support, not looking to find out what happened, or anything, just thinking to myself....how did this happen, this isn't the Zach I know, maybe he needs someone to talk to. The lesson in this I think isn't to just pile on about how SV is full of frauds, and pile on with a bunch of hate, but rather to understand that there is a slippery slope, and people get caught on the wrong side of it. Make sure that doesn't happen to you. It further strikes close to home because I'm the founder of a sleep-tech company (https://soundmind.co https://soundmind.co), an industry full of snake-oil and BS. We're extremely conscious of this view of the industry, and call it out where we can. I've also seen many start-up pitches where the numbers thrown around are absolute BS, companies that I know aren't doing well, and the founders yell about the million dollar deals they have. It's the one thing I hate about this industry, but the gong continues to bang on about growth, growth, growth and the numbers you need to hit. Many, many founders take the easy way out, but, to quote Ryan Holiday, The Obstacle Is The Way. Any suggestions on how we fight this general rah-rah-BS attitude in the industry?
- colechristensen 6y ago
  You fight the BS by being able to see it, and see it early. Whenever there is opportunity, there will be fraud, particularly when you’re selling people hole in some form.
- nitrogen 6y ago
  Any suggestions on how we fight this general rah-rah-BS attitude in the industry? Maybe flipping the criteria used for evaluating investments. Instead of having founders give pitches and get evaluated on their confidence and charisma (and made-up numbers), find the most unassuming, drab, dull, but brilliant geniuses and convince them to take a lot of money in exchange for building what they would build anyway? Less Jobs, more Woz.
SilverSlash 6y ago
Apt comparison I guess.
jimbob45 6y ago
Theranos’ story is unbelievably bizarre and I encourage everyone here to read about it. The fact that Kissinger was on Theranos’ board blows my mind every time I remember it.
- vkou 6y ago
  Given that Kissinger served on the 'board' of the Nixon administration, he did set a bit of a personal precedent of advising a... Less-than-ethically-unblemished organization.
Fomite 6y ago
Back in 2013, the biomedical community was very concerned about how blithely uBiome had decided they didn't need an IRB, despite doing things that were pretty clearly research. Turns out that was just a herald of things to come.
suyash 6y ago
YC was one of initial investor, either they were part of the scam or not, who knows.
totetsu 6y ago
I'm almost that age and I haven't committed a single act of serious fraud or white collar crime. What - am- I doing with my life.
- tathisit 6y ago
  Preparing for heaven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1mqXmoBcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1mqXmoBcM
weare138 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ
justjonathan 6y ago
It was all good until the shit hit the fan.
spinny 6y ago
The company is kinda s*t anyway. They couldn't even tell that my lunch had corn in it
emmanueloga_ 6y ago
Biome testing seems like it could be a real thing, but after this news, I'm honestly not sure. Are there any trusted service providers in this space? (must... refrain... poop joke :-)
vadym909 6y ago
I saw their 500 startup demoday presntation and thought what a cool idea. Unfortunately, I think a lot of newer startups today have good ideas that don't pan out or convert into sucessfull business -but since they raised money feel obligated to deliver by hook or crook.
yuriko_boyko 6y ago
Makes sense if it was compared to Theranos.
kaidon 6y ago
Even if it all worked out, it would still be a shitty job.
bigmattystyles 6y ago
I know it’s the title of the article, but if you’re going to work in poop, startup and Theranos, at least give me the name of the company...
iloveyouocean 6y ago
I completed the uBiome test in 2017. My insurance was billed $2535.02 and I subsequently owed $434.98, in addition to the uBiome test fee (I forget what that was). When I received the results I saw that there was no trace of the type of bacteria that was contained in my probiotic that I had been taking religiously for a long time. Total scam from start to finish. Throw the book at them.
- ipunchghosts 6y ago
  > no trace of the type of bacteria that was contained in my probiotic that I had been taking religiously for a long time. That's not how it works. The probiotic you took was full of bacteria DNA (maybe, probiotics rarely hold up to their advertised claims) which had to make it through your stomach, several meters of small bowel, and then to your large bowel. The DNA in that probiotic was likely snipped apart so many times its just in the noise at this point. Fun fact: your small bowel and large bowel have significantly different biomes. Your small bowel has more in common with mouse stool than it it doesnt with your small bowel!
  - Balgair 6y ago
    Anecdata: I've had the unfortunate need to have my gut biome taken a look at. Honestly, I'm not certain how the process was done, but my pro-biotic at the time showed up clearly in the results I was given.
xtat 6y ago
When I read this headline I thought it was something to do with the amount of human poop on the streets of SF
pbourke 6y ago
SF fart-sniffing startups must be hopping on some anxious calls right now.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
> ... and received funding from Silicon Valley investors like 8VC in San Francisco and Andreessen Horowitz in Menlo Park, which hold 22% and 10% stakes in uBiome I have nothing against these two VC firms in particular, but I'm wondering if sitting on the board of a fast growing company should also be seen as a responsibility, in this case to realize that uBiome was a fraud.
zapdrive 6y ago
Investors cannot hear a more shitty news. Must be a really crappy product. Companies like these are a real shit stain in Silicon Valley. I heard the founder was a piece of shit too. Only an asshole can push a half assed product to investors.
ubermonkey 6y ago
I mean, it seems like we should STILL be comparing them to Theranos, right?
wly_cdgr 6y ago
Their mistake was scamming people richer than them, not poorer than them

436 points by ic0n0cl4st 6y ago

Sounds like a shitty place to work.

What happened to this page? https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 Archived version: https://archive.is/cbIIT https://archive.is/cbIIT

jimhi 6y ago
Most favourable assumption: They have a policy to remove companies from their network and site that violate certain rules - like fraud. Least favourable assumption: They are doing damage control with their association. This article does not even mention Y Combinator initially funded them.
- tpmx 6y ago
  Could also be: removed becaused the company is defunct.
  - jimhi 6y ago
    They don't remove pages for inactive companies. Check the parent's archive link for what that looks like.
WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
I mean, makes sense. Can we get a new category for "Fraud" under ycombinator.com/companies?
dang 6y ago
I have zero inside information about this but since YC ejects companies that break its ethics code, it's possible that we disowned this company quite a while ago. Edit: I just checked an internal page that I go to when I need info about a YC startup and it says "Removed", so I think that's what happened, and probably rather early in whatever process led to this outcome.
- pedalpete 6y ago
  Wow! That's really interesting. I was typing in some random numbers looking at what other companies were in this directory, how large it went, etc etc, and I hit quite a few of these missing pages. I wonder if all of those companies got ejected for breaking the code of ethics, or if there are other reasons?
  - dang 6y ago
    I'm afraid I have no idea—I'm pretty far removed from that side of the business—but my guess would be that it's probably more complicated and there are likely a lot of different possible reasons. YC has funded thousands of startups, so there's inevitably a long tail of weird cases. People tend not to take that into account when assessing particular datapoints.

duxup 6y ago

>Richman was even named an "innovator" winner in Goop's "The Greater goop Awards" and at its peak, uBiome was valued at $600 million. Considering how questionable Goop is that the fraud seems about right. In the meantime the whole medical start up where they suddenly can test, for cheaper, better, etc seems to regularly come up short on the actual testing, results, or even just valid use cases. Much like Theranos nobody ever seems to explain how these kind of companies can just suddenly test for more so easily where the existing medical industry just hasn't been able to. Of all the things that the start up ... "system" can do well I kinda question their ability to suddenly become amazing complex medical device inventors / scientists. I recall some folks who work in that industry and they noted that creating new tests and diagnostics and equipment is often incredibly slow and iterative. That doesn't seem very start up-ish. The magical breakthroughs are rare.

ketamine__ 6y ago
Scientists don't know what this number means. Doctors don't either. And yet this number from a test result from a company in SF means something to someone in SF. And no one can figure out why.
- bioinformatics 6y ago
  We (scientists) know this number, be Academia, clinical, etc. After all, we have grants and budgets to follow and we are skeptic of anything too expensive or cheap.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    I was referring to biome tests that tell patients nothing.
rexreed 6y ago
Remember the wave of all those "smart" Silicon Valley CEOs who were so convinced they could build a better ventilator at the height of the COVID ventilator shortage? All those folks who thought they could just throw together their engineering knowledge and hacking skills without ever having experience building a medical device? This sort of tech hubris is all over the tech ecosystem. Folks who believe their startup prowess means they can tackle any medical device with fake-it-till-you-make-it or fail-fast-break-often mentality that often fails in reality.

quercusa 6y ago

Still compared to Theranos!

duxup 6y ago
They were right all along... sadly.
happycube 6y ago
Nah, $60mil is nothing by comparison.
- duxup 6y ago
  My first thought was "well at least it was only 60 million".

tpmx 6y ago

> received funding from Silicon Valley investors like 8VC in San Francisco and Andreessen Horowitz in Menlo Park, which hold 22% and 10% stakes in uBiome, respectively Shouldn't we expect long-established and well-respected VCs to do a very heavy due diligence, both initially and perhaps even more importantly continously to ensure something like this doesn't happen? Especially in the health field. I mean, the VC brands are used as a stamp of approval.

maxcan 6y ago
> Shouldn't we expect long-established and well-respected VCs to do a very heavy due diligince, both initially and continously to ensure something like this doesn't happen? I mean, the VC brands are used as a stamp of approval. You must be new here.. shrug
- tpmx 6y ago
  New to SV VC, sure.
teraflop 6y ago
The complaint says that the founders told investors that their model had been cleared by legal counsel, when in fact their counsel had warned them that it was "risky" and potentially fraudulent. This might be a naive question, but... Shouldn't the lawyers have been involved in the investment rounds somehow? I get that there's attorney-client confidentiality and all, but wouldn't you expect them to at least be able to say "yes, we've looked at the pitch deck and confirmed that there's nothing materially false that we know of"? And shouldn't the lack of such assurance be an immediate red flag?
- cj 6y ago
  Lawyers (of the company) typically don't get involved in reviewing pitch decks for accuracy at least in the early stages. And even if they did, the lawyers only know what the founders tell them. Additionally, lawyers typically avoid asking probing questions of founders. especially if there is risk that the answer they get may be troubling - it's much easier to defend and advise a client when you're not explicitly aware of every dirty secret. But you're not totally off base. It's absolutely the responsibility of VCs to do their own due diligence. VCs usually are investing other people's money. It's not a good look for VCs to invest in scams, so VCs typically do some degree of due diligence (which could be virtually zero diligence at seed stage / Series A, to quite a lot of diligence at later stages as the amount of money involved increases).

nceqs3 6y ago

YC Backed!

tpmx 6y ago
Early and with a small amount. Still, there's the brand effect... https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/718 (404) https://blog.ycombinator.com/ubiome-yc-s14-raises-4-dollars-dot-5m-from-angel-investors-andreessen-horowitz-to-crowdsource-microbiome-research/ https://blog.ycombinator.com/ubiome-yc-s14-raises-4-dollars-...
ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
Not too surprising. YC’s more successful companies do have a history of skirting (Uber, AirBNB). When I worked at PagerDuty, some of the less ethical aspects of the company (like the product was initially developed while interns at Amazon) were explained to me with this phrase, verbatim: “Paul told us to be naughty, but not too naughty.”
- teraflop 6y ago
  Don't forget about that time YC funded a smuggling ring: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8199286
  - ic0n0cl4st 6y ago
    I think every traveler has this idea, explores it, realizes it is illegal and moves on.
    - tpmx 6y ago
      I guess it's a sign of a true startup person to see that while it may be illegal, it will allow growth?
    - refurb 6y ago
      This is already a business though? Not high visibility, but there are companies that hire people to take packages on international flights. Of course it’s all above board, everything is declared, duty is paid, etc.

mgraczyk 6y ago

SEC complaint: https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2021/comp-pr2021-49.pdf https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2021/comp-pr2021-4...

greenyoda 6y ago
And, as noted in the SEC's press release (linked from the SFGATE article), there are also criminal charges: "In a parallel action, the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California today announced criminal charges against Richman and Apte." Press release from U.S. Attorney’s Office: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/ubiome-co-founders-charged-federal-securities-health-care-fraud-conspiracies https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/pr/ubiome-co-founders-char... Criminal indictment: https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/press-release/file/1377481/download https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndca/press-release/file/1377481...

jacobsimon 6y ago

Before it was announced that uBiome was committing insurance fraud a few years back, my friend and I compared our test results and found that our very detailed, 10-page personalized biome reports were completely identical except for our names. So I believe they were also just completely fabricating their test results from the beginning, and some of the employees at the company must have known this.

ficklepickle 6y ago
It's a poop-scapade! Did you both have newspaper and wolf hair in your excrement?
Barrin92 6y ago
>some of the employees at the company must have known this. what always fascinates me isn't the people who are in on in but the people who are kind of on the edge. From the Theranos case I remember employees not being allowed to enter rooms, secret chat rooms, people being followed by security etc... like, how can you work for a company like this and have a sort of Twilight Zone or Kafka novel experience for years and just be okay with it?
- Judgmentality 6y ago
  > like, how can you work for a company like this and have a sort of Twilight Zone or Kafka novel experience for years and just be okay with it? Realistically, the best and brightest left early and it's the people afraid of losing their jobs that feel compelled to shut up and toe the line.
  - kbenson 6y ago
    It would be easier to identify these places if it was the best and the brightest that left. Those with confidence and/or the financial stability to not worry about it can leave. There are plenty of very good and very bright people that don't fall into those categories for one reason or another (young, external factors making it risky to leave, etc).

xyzzy21 6y ago

Here's a hint: if you are starting up ANY company involving any type of biotech or medical application and there are no people with STEM degrees running it or on the board, 90% chance it's fraudulent. STEM smarts is not something you get out of a crackerjack box. And especially NOT with biotech or medical. Exactly like with Theranos, ANYONE who invested in this and didn't see this coming or do enough due diligence to, simply deserves to be fleeced!! No sympathy.

Thriptic 6y ago
Similarly, if the company won't validate their tech in peer reviewed journals, they are full of shit. I strongly suspected fraud years before it was acknowledged because Theranos was citing "trade secrets" for why they couldn't release any data about their tech. We don't do trade secrets in medicine or science, and this is precisely why.
- brianwawok 6y ago
  There’s no trade secret anywhere in US medicine? I can just walk in the factory and get a tour?
  - Thriptic 6y ago
    You are of course allowed to employ SOME obfuscation in research process, but you aren't allowed to shield your product and claims from scrutiny behind them. At the end of the day you have to validate that your product can do what you say it can do publicly through independent analysis, you have to run public trials against existing tech, and you have to explain how your tech works, which Theranos never did. They fought against scrutiny from the greater scientific community from day one; "just trust me it works" is not sufficient proof in science. This is one reason why we have the patent structure, so people can publicly disclose data for validation purposes and still make a substantial profit.
  - huitzitziltzin 6y ago
    You can’t walk into the factory but certainly you can look at a patented drug and get a formula, for example. The Wikipedia article about Sovaldi (sofosbuvir - a Hepatitis C drug) contains the exact chemical formula. Plus the clinical trial process is extensive. It would be much harder in the present regulatory regime to have a new BS prescription drug than a new BS testing startup, like this one or Theranos. (Old drugs are a little different - some were grandfathered into the current testing regime and evidence for their effectiveness is in some cases limited.) Certainly there are trade secrets in medicine, but not everywhere.

sokoloff 6y ago

Now twice compared to Theranos.

xipho 6y ago

This is interesting because uBiome was at the time described (NYT, blogs, etc.) as a way for citizen-scientists to contribute to the scientific process, submit your poop, contribute to science. Pre-emptively, yes there are (very) many problems with the scientific process as it currently happens, but this is a relativley new class of things "citizen science + private industry" that is definitely going to take some time to smooth out. In part the scientific community is likely somewhat ignorant as to the promises of the startup culture, and I suspect they will definitely become more cautious promoting these types of collaborations as time goes on.

astrange 6y ago
There are competitors to uBiome that are still going (Viome, DayTwo) and are possibly not scams. I did try uBiome because I dunno, I was bored. It seemed to give legitimate results (not the same thing every time) but the amount of "material" you submit was so small it can't have had much signal in it.
- Plastikdusche 6y ago
  Actually thought the article was about viome at first lol

hiyer 6y ago

So it's comparable to Theranos in more ways than one.

peter_d_sherman 6y ago

>SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, charged in $60M fraud scheme Hmmm... I believe there's a joke in all of this... Something having to do with that old expression about when "something" hits the fan...

Delk 6y ago
Not being from SV (or from the U.S.), I initially read the SF as "science fiction". I don't know if their (possible) problem is just in money handling or the service, but it would have been kind of funny if the potential fraud had been that the service was all make-believe.

rexreed 6y ago

Fraud in the startup world is a lot more prevalent than might be well known. NS8, Communiclique, Lordstown Motors, Trustify, and so many have come to light in the last year. Investors don't do enough due diligence and trust their own gut too much. [0] https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-162 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2020-162 [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2020/10/29/fraud-software-company-ns8-files-bankruptcy-after-ceo-arrest/?sh=4c1f9a9d382e https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidjeans/2020/10/29/fraud-sof... [2] https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/california-business-man-sentenced-prison-25-million-fraud https://www.justice.gov/usao-edva/pr/california-business-man... [3] https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/lordstown-motors-accused-of-fraud-in-shareholder-lawsuit/ar-BB1eJRiz https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/lordstown-motors-a... [4] https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdal/pr/founder-lee-county-based-company-pleads-guilty-securities-fraud https://www.justice.gov/usao-mdal/pr/founder-lee-county-base... [5] https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sentencing-set-alabama-man-2m-scam-63313780 https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/sentencing-set-alabama-m...

rsj_hn 6y ago
People lie about having a startup all the time , or perhaps they incorporate somewhere but lie about having customers/products/employees - all those pesky ingredients necessary to actually have a business. I wouldn't exactly call that fraud in the "startup world", but rather fraud in the investment world, as the goal is to bilk investors. This type of fraud is very common whenever something reaches the public consciousness, but the swarm of conmen selling X doesn't have much to do with the real startup eco-system anymore than someone selling you a piece of the Brooklyn Bridge is a fraud in the bridge world.
- zeruch 6y ago
  " I wouldn't exactly call that fraud in the "startup world", but rather fraud in the investment world, as the goal is to bilk investors." A noteworthy (and mostly overlooked) distinction.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

jeffgreco 6y ago

Adult Swim had the best take on Silicon Valley poop tech: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ

orthecreedence 6y ago

This is why I don't trust my feces with anybody but Smart Pipe [0]. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ

ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
That like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=008BPUdQ1XA

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

igammarays 6y ago

They should've claimed to be AI-powered, then nobody would've called their shit. Things get especially murky with AI, as no one understands it, and it's hard to prove outright fraud. I've seen this firsthand: a YC-backed startup I worked for which advertised an "AI-powered" background check literally was a bunch of if-statements and pseudo-random guesses which didn't even provide the same results for identical inputs.

tmpz22 6y ago
cough Triblebyte cough "AI-driven" recruiting
kergonath 6y ago
Powered by AI in the blockchain.
- osrec 6y ago
  Don't forget to throw in a bit of machine learning and deep learning. And issue some sort of cryptocurrency while you're at it. That'll really bring in the investors. /s

valuearb 6y ago

I feel like naming your child Sunshine is just setting them up for some kind of delusional life choices like fraud.

yalogin 6y ago

The Theranos lady is yet to face consequences for her fraud and since this is financial fraud, there is every chance she might plead guilty and evade any jail time. In such a scenario there is every possible incentive for copy cats to emerge. She is not the first fraudster but feels like the first one to cheat startup investors at such a large scale.

ipsum2 6y ago
> Holmes settled the charges by paying a $500,000 fine, returning 18.9 million shares to the company, relinquishing her voting control of Theranos, and being barred from serving as an officer or director of a public company for ten years Besides her name being synonymous with fraud, these seem like consequences to me. Also, her criminal case hasn't even taken place yet. (Scheduled for Aug 2021)
- sombremesa 6y ago
  > barred from serving as an officer or director of a public company for ten years So technically Theranos Pt. 2 is still on the cards for her.
FounderBurr 6y ago
I’m guessing she still wakes up in a beautiful room on thousand thread count sheets. Oh the suffering.
koheripbal 6y ago
> is yet to face consequences Aside from the destruction of her career (justified), it is extremely unlikely that she won't face very serious consequences given the mountain of evidence. It's also strange that you think "consequences" are not meaningful if they do not include jail time. Non-violent offenders spending time in jail is not the mark of a healthy society. Financial punishments, travel restrictions, restitution, community service, probationary requirements, future joblessness - all of these are "real" punishments. It is absolutely still a deterrent to anyone thinking of "copy-cat" her failure. She will likely not emerge from this with anything other than personal bankruptcy, and ongoing non-disposable restitution. What is the point of incarceration of non-violent offenders? Let the legal system work before you lay judgement on it. It is intentionally slow in order to be deliberate and consistent. I don't subscribe to the mob-mentality that non-violent white collar offenders deserve long jail sentences.

stefan_ 6y ago

Where are the indictments for the investors on the board that had oversight?

tttioo12345 6y ago

Early employee, AMA!

staunch 6y ago
Was the technology real?
- ybiomepoopthrow 6y ago
  That’s a hard question. Zac and Jessica fired people often and required things be done their way, which a was usually wrong or substandard. The result was that your poop was actually sequenced, but the results weren’t trustable
  - victor9000 6y ago
    Why was there so much turnover?
    - tttioo12345 6y ago
      The criminal behavior outlined in the indictment is completely inline with their other behavior. They always cut corners and misrepresented things, it just took a while to do so in a way that violated laws. I think you can look at the Trump White House for an example of a place with a lot of turnover that also had criminal conduct. Most people were fired for invented reasons or whims. Other people realized how toxic the founders were, and left.
  - ryan_j_naughton 6y ago
    A comment above indicates two people got identical test result reports with a very long report. This seems unlikely unless either: - the system made specific predictions with very little data such that two people could get the same prediction and report simply bc they shared a few poop attributes that were key in the prediction (which would imply a very very bad model) Or - the reports were fake Can you speak to this?

trhway 6y ago

>Apte and Richman married in 2019 so Theranos. Having a couple in the leadership is among the worst things for the business. Any chance for even minimum reality check is gone, and instead there is synergetic self-misleadings-amplification and mutually reinforced bubble detached from reality. We had at some point an SVP and a chief architect couple - it was just a twilight, there was completely no way to subject business decisions to technical reality cross-check and vice-verse, and it was a hilarious show how the managers/PMs/directors/etc. were bowing down to that chief architect ... I though wonder - how and why would one do a scam in poop testing. I mean - why not just collect the poop and test it. Profit! Sprinkle some social on top and you have a fat unicorn.

dilyevsky 6y ago
Worked our ok for lucas arts, kaspersky and probably some others. There are plenty of fraud out there where leadership is not in a relationship
natosaichek 6y ago
I mean... they did collect the poop and test it. The fraud was allegedly in double-billing samples, lying to investors about the riskiness of the business and forging the credentials of doctors to get more samples to test.
tmpz22 6y ago
Also WeWork! > Rebekah Victoria Neumann (née Paltrow; born February 26, 1978) is an American entrepreneur and businesswoman. Until September 22, 2019, she served as WeWork's chief brand and impact officer and CEO of WeGrow.

__michaelg 6y ago

»SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, compared to Theranos again«

mastazi 6y ago

I'm pretty sure that there was a Tim & Eric sketch about a poop-testing startup... sometimes reality surpasses parody

smogcutter 6y ago

“SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, continues to be compared to Theranos”

coolreader18 6y ago
"It's like Theranos but if Theranos was legit" "Wait, no, it's just like Theranos"

breck 6y ago

I bought one of these and sent in the kit. I never got the results, they said there was a technical glitch IIRC and I needed to do it again, but everything up until that point was really well done. This was probably 2016-2017. I have no other details, other than I don’t think the alleged crimes committed by them or Theranos are nearly as bad as the ones committed by big pharma and uspto and the rest of the healthcare industry. The whole thing is an f’ing sad joke. So I guess my $200 for the ubiome went down the tube, but what about the $1,800 that HMSA just tried to bill me for going to the doctor for a COVID test last February? How about the 500,000 lives lost to the opioid epidemic? Are any feds investigating USPTO, who was Purdue’s partner in crime? Nah, don’t think so. Let’s go after some small fish in the pond instead. I blame the 30 something entrepreneurs who grew up in this toxic space a lot less than the 60 year old healthcare execs and government officials who created our f’d up system that we are all suffering from. If you want to avoid the mistakes of both Theranos, uBiome, and big pharma here's the key strategy: avoid secrecy and #imaginaryProperty at all costs. It puts the patients last and is bad for the world.

ramraj07 6y ago
“ but what about” - a quote from your reply: does that ring a bell to you about why your argument seems specious at best or misleading at worst?
- benatkin 6y ago
  I think this could be an instance of the fallacy fallacy. Just because what about arguments are often unwarranted doesn't mean they are in every case. In particular, the health care and pharma industries are driving up the cost of doing business, so it's fair to ask why there's a scandal when a startup accidentally misleads and overcharges, while it's business as usual for Big Medicine? https://effectiviology.com/fallacy-fallacy/ https://effectiviology.com/fallacy-fallacy/
  - totalZero 6y ago
    While cute, this is false. "Argument from fallacy" is the fallacy whereby you assert that the conclusion is false because the reasoning is false. GP doesn't assert that the conclusion is necessarily false, and in fact very specifically qualifies his language to the reasoning. Webster's gives "fallacious" as a synonym for "specious."

riwsky 6y ago

“SF poop-testing startup, once compared to Theranos, here again compared to Theranos”

pedalpete 6y ago

I met Zach when he first started uBiome and moved to Chile. He was pationate about what he was building, and about the opportunity and impact it could have on the world. This was 2011, so he was in the very early stages. If I recall correctly, he was calling uBiome the 23&Me of your gut biome instead of DNA. He was absolutely the last person I would expect to be caught up in something like this, and when the news first broke a few years ago, I reached out as an act of support, not looking to find out what happened, or anything, just thinking to myself....how did this happen, this isn't the Zach I know, maybe he needs someone to talk to. The lesson in this I think isn't to just pile on about how SV is full of frauds, and pile on with a bunch of hate, but rather to understand that there is a slippery slope, and people get caught on the wrong side of it. Make sure that doesn't happen to you. It further strikes close to home because I'm the founder of a sleep-tech company (https://soundmind.co https://soundmind.co), an industry full of snake-oil and BS. We're extremely conscious of this view of the industry, and call it out where we can. I've also seen many start-up pitches where the numbers thrown around are absolute BS, companies that I know aren't doing well, and the founders yell about the million dollar deals they have. It's the one thing I hate about this industry, but the gong continues to bang on about growth, growth, growth and the numbers you need to hit. Many, many founders take the easy way out, but, to quote Ryan Holiday, The Obstacle Is The Way. Any suggestions on how we fight this general rah-rah-BS attitude in the industry?

colechristensen 6y ago
You fight the BS by being able to see it, and see it early. Whenever there is opportunity, there will be fraud, particularly when you’re selling people hole in some form.
nitrogen 6y ago
Any suggestions on how we fight this general rah-rah-BS attitude in the industry? Maybe flipping the criteria used for evaluating investments. Instead of having founders give pitches and get evaluated on their confidence and charisma (and made-up numbers), find the most unassuming, drab, dull, but brilliant geniuses and convince them to take a lot of money in exchange for building what they would build anyway? Less Jobs, more Woz.

SilverSlash 6y ago

Apt comparison I guess.

jimbob45 6y ago

Theranos’ story is unbelievably bizarre and I encourage everyone here to read about it. The fact that Kissinger was on Theranos’ board blows my mind every time I remember it.

vkou 6y ago
Given that Kissinger served on the 'board' of the Nixon administration, he did set a bit of a personal precedent of advising a... Less-than-ethically-unblemished organization.

Fomite 6y ago

Back in 2013, the biomedical community was very concerned about how blithely uBiome had decided they didn't need an IRB, despite doing things that were pretty clearly research. Turns out that was just a herald of things to come.

suyash 6y ago

YC was one of initial investor, either they were part of the scam or not, who knows.

totetsu 6y ago

I'm almost that age and I haven't committed a single act of serious fraud or white collar crime. What - am- I doing with my life.

tathisit 6y ago
Preparing for heaven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1mqXmoBcM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1mqXmoBcM

weare138 6y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJklHwoYgBQ

justjonathan 6y ago

It was all good until the shit hit the fan.

spinny 6y ago

The company is kinda s*t anyway. They couldn't even tell that my lunch had corn in it

emmanueloga_ 6y ago

Biome testing seems like it could be a real thing, but after this news, I'm honestly not sure. Are there any trusted service providers in this space? (must... refrain... poop joke :-)

vadym909 6y ago

I saw their 500 startup demoday presntation and thought what a cool idea. Unfortunately, I think a lot of newer startups today have good ideas that don't pan out or convert into sucessfull business -but since they raised money feel obligated to deliver by hook or crook.

yuriko_boyko 6y ago

Makes sense if it was compared to Theranos.

kaidon 6y ago

Even if it all worked out, it would still be a shitty job.

bigmattystyles 6y ago

I know it’s the title of the article, but if you’re going to work in poop, startup and Theranos, at least give me the name of the company...

iloveyouocean 6y ago

I completed the uBiome test in 2017. My insurance was billed $2535.02 and I subsequently owed $434.98, in addition to the uBiome test fee (I forget what that was). When I received the results I saw that there was no trace of the type of bacteria that was contained in my probiotic that I had been taking religiously for a long time. Total scam from start to finish. Throw the book at them.

ipunchghosts 6y ago
> no trace of the type of bacteria that was contained in my probiotic that I had been taking religiously for a long time. That's not how it works. The probiotic you took was full of bacteria DNA (maybe, probiotics rarely hold up to their advertised claims) which had to make it through your stomach, several meters of small bowel, and then to your large bowel. The DNA in that probiotic was likely snipped apart so many times its just in the noise at this point. Fun fact: your small bowel and large bowel have significantly different biomes. Your small bowel has more in common with mouse stool than it it doesnt with your small bowel!
- Balgair 6y ago
  Anecdata: I've had the unfortunate need to have my gut biome taken a look at. Honestly, I'm not certain how the process was done, but my pro-biotic at the time showed up clearly in the results I was given.

xtat 6y ago

When I read this headline I thought it was something to do with the amount of human poop on the streets of SF

pbourke 6y ago

SF fart-sniffing startups must be hopping on some anxious calls right now.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

> ... and received funding from Silicon Valley investors like 8VC in San Francisco and Andreessen Horowitz in Menlo Park, which hold 22% and 10% stakes in uBiome I have nothing against these two VC firms in particular, but I'm wondering if sitting on the board of a fast growing company should also be seen as a responsibility, in this case to realize that uBiome was a fraud.

zapdrive 6y ago

Investors cannot hear a more shitty news. Must be a really crappy product. Companies like these are a real shit stain in Silicon Valley. I heard the founder was a piece of shit too. Only an asshole can push a half assed product to investors.

ubermonkey 6y ago

I mean, it seems like we should STILL be comparing them to Theranos, right?

wly_cdgr 6y ago

Their mistake was scamming people richer than them, not poorer than them