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Germany pauses AstraZeneca vaccinations as a 'precaution'

331 points by mpsq 6y ago

5cents 6y ago
Physicians in Norway have now found specific antibodies destroying platelets and concluded that it is very unlikely that the vaccine is not the cause Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mistenkte-vaksinebivirkninger-aarsaken-er-funnet https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https:/...
pixiemaster 6y ago
with ~300 deaths per day in germany, how many people will this kill?
- greenpresident 6y ago
  Casual estimates are at 1700/week. https://mobile.twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1371479008416821250 https://mobile.twitter.com/politicsforali/status/13714790084...
  - mns 6y ago
    So you are saying that no one would die in Germany if the vaccine would not be temporarily suspended? That's a bit simplistic. Not to mention that we go so far as to consider that every life is precious and we need to fight for every single COVID patient, but the people that could be affected by this are just statistically insignificant.
    - hef19898 6y ago
      From the numbers I saw, the problems with AZ seem to affect only a very small portion of people. It kind of feels like people are only now reading the note that comes with a drug. And we are using these drugs on millions of people, so yeah even the one in a million complications will start to show. It sure seems that AZ is singled out on that so. And I really wonder why. Because it sure is getting into dangerous territory by now that we are artificialy limiting our vaccine availability.
    - FpUser 6y ago
      >"we go so far as to consider that every life is precious" We who? If you're talking about healthcare the chances of survival are constantly moderated by various policies ( both government and private ) against the money spent.
  - yayr 6y ago
    this does not seem to be official the usual figure now is 5 Million vaccinations and 30 reported deaths from blood clotting. Which appears to be not much different from the number without vaccinations. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-delays-over-blood-clot-fears-raise-new-n1260945 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccin...
    - greenpresident 6y ago
      The estimate I name is the number of additional people dying per week if we stop using AZ vaccines today.
    - tlogan 6y ago
      My understanding is that they were 30 blood clotting cases - not deaths. Am I correct?
  - niklasbuschmann 6y ago
    This number is highly dependent on the case numbers of a country, so I wouldn't be too sure about it. My very rough calculation: There are ~ 200,000 vaccines administered daily in Germany, of which maybe 50% are AstraZeneca, so lets say we are delaying 100,000 vaccines / day - corresponding to 0.1% of the population vaccinated with Astra-Zeneca per day. Currently there are ~ 200 daily COVID-19 deaths in Germany, so in proportion one would expect ~ 0.2 additional deaths per day (~2 per week) due to the delay. Assuming people prioritised to get AstraZeneca are 10x as likely to die from COVID than the general population, this still leaves us with 20 deaths / week due to the delay. The big question is now how many people will die because they are infected by someone who could have gotten vaccinated sooner, but with a R of ~1, and less than 20 weeks until the whole population is vaccined, I doubt this will give two more orders of magnitude.
- isolli 6y ago
  Vaccine-related deaths are highly visible, daily covid deaths not so much...
  - dcolkitt 6y ago
    This is just after like post 9/11, when a large percentage of travelers decided to drive instead of fly out of fear of plane hijackings. Even though you're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a car accident than an act of terrorism.
  - WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
    They have been very visible a year ago (jeez, it's been a year already, what a time to live in), but people got mightily desensitized to this. 300 more deaths? Meh. In the other news, the sun continues to rise every morning. Until of course it's yourself, a family member, or a friend that joins the rank of those 300.
    - isolli 6y ago
      To be fair, people in Germany were quite worried when covid deaths were around 1000 per day. 300 deaths per day is on par with a bad flu season. The important question, of course, is: are deaths on the way up or down?
- exyi 6y ago
  Maybe many immediately. However, getting bad press for vaccines and the government not doing enough to prevent "unnecessary" death could decrease the voluntary vaccination rate significantly. That would bring much more problems in the long term. Of course, you can only guess what would happen, they want to play the safe game, medicine in general is not a friend with risk.
dash2 6y ago
This seems like a case where the precautionary principle is misleading. Maybe there's a small chance that the vaccine can be harmful for a few people. Meanwhile there's a large chance that not having the vaccine can increase your chance of getting COVID. Doesn't even a week's delay in vaccinating predictably increase the number of deaths in a country, perhaps by a large amount given the nonlinear dynamics of epidemics? I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so.
- throaway_484888 6y ago
  > I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so. It's the EU's punishment for the UK leaving. I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise.
  - oezi 6y ago
    The EU is punishing itself? - AstraZeneka is part swedish. - The vaccine is approved and the contracts are signed. No money back for adverse effects.
    - throaway_484888 6y ago
      > The EU is punishing itself? Yes they're cutting their nose off to spite their face! Or to let their own citizens die - whatever it takes to have a pop at the British! The UK is having success using primarily AstraZeneca (not 'AstraZeneka') and the EU don't like that, so they're attacking it.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    The drop in export volume is probably punishment enough, this would be a bizarre play
  - ketzu 6y ago
    > It's the EU's punishment for the UK leaving. I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise. Then call me the first one, I seriously doubt this is the reason.
jonplackett 6y ago
Maybe AZ should have charged €3 per shot instead of €2 and spent the extra € on a PR agency. They just seem to be constantly taking a hammering in the press, unfairly I’d say.
- DoingIsLearning 6y ago
  To be fair, I think the contract between AZ and Oxford University actually restricts them from making a profit for a period of N months/years. So they are only technically allowed to adjust the price to take into account the different operational costs depending on the manufacturing site.
  - signal11 6y ago
    I believe AZ have said they will not profit off the vaccine until the pandemic ends. The interesting thing is that they may get to decide when that happens.[1] [1] https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-puts-a-time-limit-its-covid-19-no-profit-pledge-report https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-puts-a-time-...
    - hef19898 6y ago
      From top of my head, not before June / July or when the WHO declares the end of the pandemic.
  - jonplackett 6y ago
    Yes I did know that (I’m just being silly really) but even so, PR is a cost and so they wouldn’t even be making any more profit! I do think people aren’t giving AZ enough credit for doing it at cost though. Especially compared to the €50 per dose Pfizer initially quoted the EU!
- patrickmcnamara 6y ago
  Not that unfairly. They keep reducing vaccine deliveries on short notice in the EU and have been opaque in general. I think they have delivered about 10% of what they agreed to for Q1.
giantandroids 6y ago
You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.
- high_derivative 6y ago
  Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...
  - mns 6y ago
    If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.
    - high_derivative 6y ago
      The difference being that there is no evidence yet to point towards vaccinations causing these, while there is plenty evidence for covid. Further, there is plenty of evidence for the lost lives by NOT vaccinating faster.
    - hef19898 6y ago
      Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting every single rash people get with AZ. EDIT: Just checked, they found 7 cases of thrombosis in the brain, out of 1.6 million vaccinated people. Well, we'll see how that develops.
fasteddie31003 6y ago
The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.
- corndoge 6y ago
  Is that obvious? If you have the choice between self quarantining and trying to avoid contracting a virus that, if contracted, has a low percentage of killing you, vs choosing to get a vaccine that also has a low percentage of killing you, why would you choose the vaccine?
  - dcolkitt 6y ago
    This is like saying you should never leave your house, because you could die in a car accident. (And the chance of dying from the AZ vaccine is at most the chance of dying driving to vaccination site.)
    - corndoge 6y ago
      No, it's not like saying that
  - scotty79 6y ago
    Because one "low" is few orders of magnitude lower than other "low".
    - corndoge 6y ago
      Right, but that's assuming you get the virus; to properly compare it you have to factor the chance you contract the virus in the first place. I'm not saying the math works out better, I haven't done it myself, but I'd bet most people would choose to try to avoid contracting
      - shawabawa3 6y ago
maxerickson 6y ago
It seems the rate of these conditions isn't any different for the vaccinated than for the population (last bit of the article makes this point). What's the thought process here?
- dazc 6y ago
  EU leaders shooting themselves in the foot? Not sure what thought goes into that scenario other than none at all? WHO say no evidence of any risk https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542
- detaro 6y ago
  Yeah, this seems to make no sense from the outside and the data I've seen, which all puts this in fairly normal ranges. And not enough transparency into the why then IMHO. But well, transparency into why this is supposed to make sense is something sorely missing from German covid policies for a long time now... EDIT: as pointed out elsewhere, the official press release gives us that there has been new data in the past few days with a specific concern, that's at least some info.
- 5cents 6y ago
  The rates at population levels are not enough. These are rare cases and, at least partially, in groups of people who shouldn't get that ill and suddenly die
  - maxerickson 6y ago
    Last week, Lothar Wieler, head of Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases, said there was no evidence that patients who received the vaccine were more likely than patients of a similar age group to suffer blood conditions. Is that guy wrong or basing the statement on outdated information?
    - Sol- 6y ago
      Might be outdated, since he talks about clotting generally but the agency in charge of halting the vaccinations mentions a specific rare complication today [1]: > accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Perhaps really just a bad batch somehow if this particular complication wasn't observed in the UK. [1] https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html;jsessionid=AD409086F8AF10805A878F1450B75D9C.intranet221?nn=164440 https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...
ssully 6y ago
Just announced that France is also suspending use of the vaccine [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-clotting-0ab2c4fe13370c96c873e896387eb92f https://apnews.com/article/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vacc...
- lgeorget 6y ago
  Until tomorrow afternoon, when the european agency in charge of approving drugs should give its guidance on the matter. [1] [1]: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/live/message/604/f7f/da5/ff4/e9f/159/a23/2b4.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/live/message/604/f7f/da5/ff4/e9f... (in French)
johnnycerberus 6y ago
Judging by what the German press is writing nowadays about their politicans, especially the populists (and the unionists also) that are increasingly frustrated on the incapability of Germany (and the EU altogether) to handle the COVID situation and deliver a homemade vaccine, without the help of the USA and UK, it doesn't surprise me. It could be politically.
- fab1an 6y ago
  Germany has a "homemade" vaccine (BioNTech), in fact it was the first reliable vaccine on the market, and pioneering an entirely new medical paradigm at it, but the EC botched the process of acquiring it.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    How can you botch acquiring something being developed and made in own country?
    - jansan 6y ago
      That is what we have been asking us for more than two months. This almost looks like sabotage.
    - semigroupoid 6y ago
      Because it is not made in Germany. Pfizer is responsible for producing it and their plants are primarily in the US.
      - fab1an 6y ago
        I don't think that's the case, the US isn't exporting any vaccines afaik and the EU doses are primarily produced in Europe.
        tpush 6y ago
        The manufacturing of the vaccine is a three-stage process[0]: The First stage is done in the US. The second stage is done in the US and Germany. The third stage is done in the US and Belgium. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine#Manufacturing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vacci...
dustinmoris 6y ago
1. Hype up a virus to create a pandemic of fear 2. Hype up fear against the vaccine which would get you out of the pandemic of fear 3. Impose the most outrageous and ridiculous restrictions on people's lives which make it even illegal to see your own family. 4. Control by fear Anyone who still follows restrictions is not worthy of life.
jansan 6y ago
How many countries have stopped AZ fo far? - Denmark - Norway - Ireland - Netherlands - Iceland - Bulgaria - Romania (only partly, see child comment) Am I missing any?
- throwaway210222 6y ago
  DRC
  - throwaway210222 6y ago
    DRC downvoted? Here you go then: https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/drc-postpones-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-over-blood-clot-fears-14360d22-bfa4-54a4-a984-c978c1bfd0f3 https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/drc-postpones-covid-19-vac... Sigh
- scruple 6y ago
  France.
- clawoo 6y ago
  > - Romania Romania hasn't, only for specific lot numbers that were reported by Italy and Denmark as problematic.
- alberto_ol 6y ago
  Italy
- jansan 6y ago
  South Africa stopped using it in February, because it did not work well against their mutant. Not sure about current status.
- johnnycerberus 6y ago
  Romania did not stop the vaccination. It is ongoing. Only the faulty ones (as believed from the intel/reports we got from Italy and Netherlands) were eliminated from the pool.
- 6y ago
calhoun137 6y ago
Since these vaccines got emergency use authorization, that means they did not follow the standard procedure for clinical trials. Therefore, precautionary measures which respond dynamically to trends detected in newly available data, is the logical, ethical, and scientifically correct thing to do, imo.
- willis936 6y ago
  What newly available data?
- totalZero 6y ago
  The foundational weakness in what you're saying is that politicians tend to make decisions based on sentiment, rather than basing their actions on data. I'm not saying the conclusion is incorrect, but it's driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt -- not quite the same as a clear evidentiary basis. That could be acceptable if the logic goes that AZN bears the burden of proving that every potential adverse side effect is extremely rare. However, by that logic the vaccinations will be paused several times and more people will suffer due to COVID.
- makomk 6y ago
  As I understand it, one of the reasons vaccinations were so delayed in the EU compared to the UK is that they went through the normal approval process rather than emergency use authorization.
5cents 6y ago
In Norway, two health care workers are receiving intensive care for isolated low platelets and blood clotting. A third was also admitted but died from a cerebral catastrophe. These are all young (<50 years) and previously healthy. Of course this is serious and needs proper investigation. Maybe the risk for some specific groups justify giving them another vaccine?
temp-dude-87844 6y ago
Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine (which is often perceived worse than harm that would have befallen people without medicine) and highest chance of avoiding an increase of brand-agnostic vaccine mistrust from the public. As news about some countries pausing its deployment spread, the pressure rises on other countries to follow suit, as they weigh the risk of public mistrust. If in the near future, public mistrust about this brand of vaccine climbs higher but confidence in other vaccines does not drop as much, then governments will benefit from having deferred deployment of this vaccine, and they may benefit further by suspending deployment of this vaccine entirely, even if the vaccine is entirely vindicated to be safe. This outcome would be unfair for the manufacturer, but it would sacrifice this brand to preserve public trust. Public trust is a key factor in healthcare policy in societies where some healthcare participation is voluntary and elections can significantly influence policy priorities.
- Zebrakopf 6y ago
  Thank you temp-dude for this viewpoint. I did not think about it in this way before. Weighing the possible deaths of barring one of the vaccines against the possible deaths of a rise in mistrust towards vaccines seems like an impossible task. However, the findings of blood clotting alone would not have sufficed for this argument as they really should be no cause for concern at this point in time. The knee-jerk response of other countries on the other hand makes this reasoning much more valid. Something something self-fulfilling prophecy
- macspoofing 6y ago
  >Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine I think so too, especially since AZ is one of the least effective ones available.
gt565k 6y ago
oh boy anti-vaxxing groups on FB are gonna eat this up all things considered, that's pretty bad news if they fucked up on some batches and people died because of poor QA
- VBprogrammer 6y ago
  The anti-vax groups have been eating this up since before it was even related to the AZ vaccination. There were posts about medical professionals in the US who received the Pfizer vaccine having similar issues shortly after having that injection.
  - jokethrowaway 6y ago
    Those cases actually happened (they've been reported by reputable sources, not anti-vaxxers blogs), but nobody cared because the numbers are small. It's definitely weird to see countries reacting when this happens with AZ.
    - VBprogrammer 6y ago
      Sure those cases happened. Of course in a country of 300 million people strange stuff happens every day. What is more likely, that two independently developed and tested vaccines using a different technique both have the same rare side effect or that these things happen at a low level in the population and are completely uncorrelated with the vaccine?
- rhino369 6y ago
  They would eat it up if this was swept under the rug and it later comes out there was a problem. You can't cover up and refuse to investigate merely because the investigation might have bad optics. The worst case scenario is that there is problem, its gets covered up, and then a few weeks later the problem kills people and now the public has zero faith in vaccines.
the-dude 6y ago
The EU commission has framed AZ as not trustworthy from the moment the first delivery targets could not be met. This has influenced public opinion in NL quite a bit ( in DE too I suspect ). I can read in the local comment sections that people want to decline the AZ vaccine as they don't trust it, and it is only 60% effective. They would rather have Pfizer, even Sputnik or rather no vacination at all than AZ. These commenters seem quite hostile to AZ and the UK for that matter. And these comments are from before the clotting allegations. This is and has been quite a contra-productive negotiation strategy from the EU commission, directly endangering public health in my humbe opinion.
- libertine 6y ago
  It's funny because on the other way around it seems like the British Government did precisely the opposite by selling this vaccine as a prime example of British superiority and why "Brexit makes sense". You're criticizing EU commission for transparently expose the shortcomings of this private company, but you seem to forget what this wave of what apparently are thousands of "internet specialists" that know better then independent regulator bodies for medicines. Yes, this isn't EMA (that British propaganda painted as a slow and incompetent agency) - it's each country own regulator that have been responsible for the safety of millions of citizens, and they have been doing a pretty good job for many, many years. This isn't a joint operation. It's scientists expressing their concern about these cases which are anything but normal. Or now, every single EU country regulator (including Norway) are all incompetent, including the doctors who reported these cases and are following closely their development? They're all in this conspiracy to put down AZ? I mean people rightfully criticize anti-vaxxers, but trust me, this bullshit attitude is just the same as the anti-vaxxers. It's blind fanaticism towards a vaccine, that even science should be disregarded, exactly the extreme opposite of anti-vaxxes.
- zajio1am 6y ago
  > The EU commission has framed AZ as not trustworthy from the moment the first delivery targets could not be met. AZ was considered less trustworthy than Pfizer or Moderna vaccines several months before that due to irregularities in phase 3 clinical trials (original dosage leads to ~62% efficacy, while inadvertently given half-dose to a part of test subject leads to higher efficacy): https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32623-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Conflicts between AZ and EU commission seems silly compared to that and IMHO lead more to discreditation of Ursula von der Leyen.
yread 6y ago
I've mentioned it in a comment in the previous thread but it's not completely unexpected and with no causal link. Adenovirus induced blood coagulation problems are known: Adenovirus-induced thrombocytopenia: the role of von Willebrand factor and P-selectin in mediating accelerated platelet clearance https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006497120417847 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000649712... You can see the number of reported cases across Europe in the EUDRA Vigilance database (if you manage to get through the Oracle BI interface and if it doesn't error out) https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/pharmacovigilance/eudravigilance https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-devel... I don't understand why AstraZeneca doesn't just say: yeah blood clots are a risk, incidence 1/100,000 and everyone can move on. Why does everything needs to be so politicized with this vaccine.
- colechristensen 6y ago
  >Why does everything needs to be so politicized with this vaccine It is politicized because it effects more or less everyone on the planet and people are setup to take popular things and turn them into polarizing issues for political power in politicians and social capital for ordinary people. This is how a whole lot of people seek out happiness, by being "right" in their social circles, especially in a way that shows them as superior to large groups of others who are "wrong". Social media preys intentionally or unintentionally on this human psychological vulnerability (can we get a CVE on the human psyche?) and every bit of media wants to sell you a compelling story so they stoke the flames of A/B conflicts. The mass psychology/mythology/philosophy of the day is based around this crap and will turn anything into a "political" issue and people just generally aren't well educated enough to think independently or evaluate situations rationally on their own so they allow their reason to be driven by systems which are evolutionarily dependent on preying on addictive human behavior.
  - mikem170 6y ago
    Agreed. I add that the 24-hour news cycle is in it for the clicks, and they get lots of clicks selling fear. Risk assessment isn't one of our stong suits, either (human nature being what it is).
lkjlwekfjklwejf 6y ago
Fauci is a fucking piece of shit fascist. He needs to nine-ironed in the head.
lkjlwekfjklwejf 6y ago
https://patriots.win/p/12hkvmnScu/fauci-more-pandemics-in-the-futu/ https://patriots.win/p/12hkvmnScu/fauci-more-pandemics-in-th... Now this fucking piece of shit asshole says "more pandemics in the future because of climate change" GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU COMMIE FUCK!
petre 6y ago
They should at least donate the vaccines to Ukraine and Moldova and other poorer countries through the Covax mechanism instead of letting them go to waste. I'm due to get vaccinated with AZ in less that two weeks and I will deninitely do it regardless, if doesn't get halted of course. Most EU countries decided to use it on recipients older than 55 and now they're halting it due to a baseless claim. It has worked fine and the UK has already vaccinated millions of people with it. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2021/03/07/extent-damage-astrazeneca-vaccines-perceived-safet https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2...
fab1an 6y ago
Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voruebergehende-aussetzung-impfung-covid-19-impfstoff-astra-zeneca.html;jsessionid=0A4D9FE5C5CDCC1653D879D8FE82082E.intranet211 https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...
- Rochus 6y ago
  From the article: Compared to the status of 11.03.2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15.03.2021) have now been reported in Germany. In the analysis of the new data status, the experts of the Paul Ehrlich Institute now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in conjunction with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
  - elboulangero 6y ago
    There's an English version straight on their site, no need for a translator: https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...
    - Rochus 6y ago
      Looks like they have used DeepL as well ;-)
- refraincomment 6y ago
  Okay, so they looked for correlations with a million conditions and when they found a vaguely significant one they automatically suspended the vaccination campaign prolonging by days or weeks the national lockdown.
- 6y ago
matthewmorgan 6y ago
From the BBC's health correspondent: "The data supplied by AstraZeneca shows there have been 37 reports of blood clots among the 17m people across Europe who have been given the vaccine" ... "The 37 reports are below the level you would expect. What is more, there is no strong biological explanation why the vaccine would cause a blood clot."
verytrivial 6y ago
As far as I understand it, the EU member states are not generally short on doses, more on distribution and other regulatory issues. If they pause AZ, they can use something else which is already being manufactured right now, and likely within the EU, quelle surprise. I would not be surprised if this is simply a political and economic snub from the EU, one of very many the UK can expect over the coming decades. The UK has spent the last half decade ENDLESSLY trying to score points against the EU on any and every topic. This sort of wrangling is part and parcel for the relationship the UK has chosen. Basically, if the current UK Government has gone anywhere NEAR this topic, don't expect the truth to linger. This certainly includes the chest-beating around the AZ vaccine, which the government were actually going to require be shipped with a fscking Union Flag on every vial. Edit: My understanding was based around stories like this suggesting some delays, that AZ were "striving" to deliver, and more dosed being ordered after AZ testing not covering over 65s (at the time), some hesitancy, and general mud slinging. When I say "generally short" I guess I should say that I doubt even the chest-beating Brits will be fully two-dose vaccinated to 80-90% before Autumn. It's been a year and a month or two is second order optimization in my view. If you are concerned about shortages, there are some other continents to consider first. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/astrazeneca-expected-to-miss-eu-covid-vaccine-supply-target-by-half-in-second-quarter-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/astrazeneca-ex... https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/02/18/EU-adds-350-million-COVID-19-vaccine-doses-from-Moderna-Pfizer https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/02/18/EU-add...
- atleta 6y ago
  Depends on how you define short on doses. We have less than what we've planned but we seem to adminster less than we have at the moment.
- s_dev 6y ago
  >As far as I understand it, the EU member states are not generally short on doses Let me correct that understanding. The EU is absolutely short on doses. AZ has only delivered 10% of what they promised. There is no doubt if the EU had a greater supply the vaccine rollout would be going much better.
- 6y ago
tablespoon 6y ago
It's also worth noting that it seems like Germans perceive the AstraZenica vaccine as second-rate, and were even skipping appointments in the hope of getting the Pfizer/BioNTech shot later. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-vaccines-astrazeneca.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/world/europe/germany-coro...: > Many people — including health workers — are skipping appointments or refusing to sign up for the AstraZeneca shot, which they fear is less effective than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, the officials say. As a result, two weeks after the first delivery of 1.45 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine arrived in Germany, only 270,986 have been administered, according to data collected by the public health authority, the Robert Koch Institute.
- f430 6y ago
  I think the concerns are very valid about AZ and German's have a right to choose. Big point is that HN is largely an American forum so there will be a bias against AZ doubters. Interesting that Twitter and Facebook also not labeling the concerns about AZ as "Fake News" so likely there is some merit to the claims against AZ. I am also against taking AZ as well. If HN folks are confident it is fine go ahead. I will choose what I'm comfortable with and Germans or anybody else for that matter should have a say.
  - ghaff 6y ago
    Why would there be an American bias against AZ doubters? It's not approved in the US and I expect a lot of otherwise pro-vax people would not want an AZ vaccine--which, in at least some states, is not actually a choice you have once a vaccine is approved.
deleted 6y ago
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motohagiography 6y ago
There is an availability bias, where stories about people dying after vaccinations are amplified in fringe media, and conversely, the numbers of people who died in nursing homes of actual covid were suppressed by mainstream authorities. There's uncertainty on every part of the issue. Interpreting the general uncertainty we live with as evidence for a hidden agenda on the part of authorities is it's own self fulfilling bias, but when I read about these vaccine risks, I'm looking for a plausible model of the options. I would (and did) jump out of planes with a parachute recreationally, but if untrustworthy people started advocating it, proposing it should be mandatory, and unstable people dressed up in double flight suits in the streets started shaming others into doing it, I would definitely not jump out of planes anymore. If it were true that the probability of complications/death from covid are heavily skewed to people over 75 and some obvious co-morbidities, we could vaccinate everyone in that risk group in a matter of weeks. What is the case for anyone who isn't a medical worker outside the real at-risk cohort to take on the endogenous risk of a vaccine? I could make one, but I'm more interested in what more knowledgeable people have to say about it, and judging by rising popular skepticism, we're going to need one. When covid started last year, as someone young'ish and healthy I signed up to volunteer for human challenge trials and started to organize a convalescent plasma drive, because that's what I thought being civic minded meant. I have living family members who were affected by polio before widespread vaccinations were available, and recognize the importance of vaccines on herd immunity. After a year of hall of mirrors bullshit about masks and politics, I'm struggling with the case for why a low-risk healthy person would take a vaccine with non-trivial side effect risks for a virus that is less dangerous than their normal activities, when the vulnerable people who get vaccinated (for whom the risk/reward is clearer) are no longer vulnerable. Is there a conversation to be had on the model for this, or does it come down to "conspiracy theorists who put us at risk," vs. "normal people" and there's no point in engaging it? Is the best argument just a matter of, "we live in a society and part of that is accepting the jab?"
rurban 6y ago
So far they only vaccinated older people with it. These complications all happened in younger people where we don't have a coverage if millions. More like a few thousands. Thanksfully Germany acted now rationally, like the other countries. One idea would be to administer only half the dosis on younger people, as this was already tested, with much better results than with the full dosis. AZ is pretty strong, compared to the others.
rossdavidh 6y ago
So, does anyone know why Astra/Zeneca is not approved in the U.S.? Did they not try, or it's still ongoing, or did they have problems?
- sampo 6y ago
  My understanding is, FDA requires data from trials run on US population. Trials from other countries are not sufficient alone. AstraZeneca is currently running a trial in the US.
- zain 6y ago
  They haven’t submitted to the FDA for emergency use authorization yet because their trials aren’t done yet. Their trials started well after Pfizer/Moderna and are longer than J&J. They’re expected to apply in the next 3-4wks.
- pkaye 6y ago
  The trial were delayed. I read just today that the results are being reviewed to see if sufficient for submittal to the FDA.
sampo 6y ago
I have seen 2 similar cases of immune thrombocytopenia in the news in US, one related to the Moderna vaccine, and one related to the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocytopenia-covid-vaccine-blood.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocyto... (alternative link: https://archive.is/RisZF https://archive.is/RisZF) https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/doctors-death-after-covid-19-vaccine-is-being-investigated/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/doctors-death-afte...
jokethrowaway 6y ago
The deaths don't seem very high, I wonder if this is meant to be exactly the opposite of what they say: purely a political move to justify their slow vaccine rollout compared to the quick UK one (which used AZ).
globular-toast 6y ago
These vaccinations are the largest unethical experiment since the fear of fat.
mywacaday 6y ago
Poor reporting to not include that Italy, France, Ireland, Bulgaria, Denmark and The Netherlands have all paused the vaccine along with Norway which is mentioned. Expect better of Reuters.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  The very first sentence of the article makes it clear that Germany is neither the first nor only European country to suspend AZ vaccinations: > making it the latest of several European countries to hit pause The article also cites the EMA, an EU institution, and notes: > Several EU countries have called a halt to the AstraZeneca vaccine Would you have them list each and every country individually? It seems, to me, that you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Expect better of HN comments.
  - mywacaday 6y ago
    Yes, or at the very least the number of countries that have paused the vaccine, this is a rapidly changing story and where this reporting lands in the narrative is important. I had to go check anothe news site to see which/how many EU countries had now paused the Astra Zennica vaccine.
systemvoltage 6y ago
The PR damage alone from this move is undeniably going to cause an unimaginable amount of loss. People who were on the fence of taking the vaccine have just solidified on their decision.
- donovanian 6y ago
  The PR damage happens when authorities engage in noble lying and all of this weird non-transparent messaging. Public health really hasn't been upfront with a lot, and their back and forth on a number of issues, while maintaining this air of authority is ultimately counter-productive to building trust.
BaseS4 6y ago
Germany is clearly a conspiracy theorist. Vaccine injuries and faulty manufacturing ins Alex Jones-tier cringe. What's next, Germany offers diplomatic immunity for Qanon? Vaccines have never harmed anyone. I can't believe this is on HN.
agd 6y ago
Let’s see if any new data comes out, but from what’s public right now I can only see this pause costing many lives across Europe. We’ve had millions of doses in the UK without serious side effects, so unless there were faulty batches I think any risk must be minuscule, and certainly lower than the known risks of covid deaths for unvaccinated people. This is a case where a cautious ‘first do no harm’ approach will likely cost many lives.
- libertine 6y ago
  These cases are 4x greater then the ones in the UK, so either UK isn't reporting some cases, or something isn't right with AZ production. Also, I'm pretty sure each regulator knows the pros and cons of this decision, and they know well the consequences of stopping the vaccination - it's not like they are all incompetent. I mean, imagine the odds of the amount of ignorance to have reached this level of decision making in several independent countries. Not likely, at all. It's not a "a case where a cautious ‘first do no harm’ approach will likely cost many lives.", it's them doing their job and follow the procedure that has worked pretty well, based in science. It's what builds trust in vaccines and medicines, knowing that regulators are there, aware, and if they think something is wrong they won't take a stupid risk out of pride or pressure.
  - agd 6y ago
    The European regulator and the WHO have said that countries should continue to vaccinate with the AZ vaccine, but the national governments are ignoring this. With this many countries pausing vaccinations, we know that there will potentially be thousands of extra deaths.
    - libertine 6y ago
      EMA retracted what was said and is evaluating the problem. The WHO doesn't want this event to spread to other countries, because the vaccine seems safe, this might be a production problem. Should be investigated, and if it's a bad batch shouldn't be given to people.
chmod775 6y ago
Absolute fucking stupidity. Thirty cases of blood clotting out of five million. More people will die because they're not vaccinated. And that's ignoring the fact that this may just be a statistical blip. There's a lot of diseases humans could catch, and sometimes there's going to be clusters. German politicians said they're suspending vaccinations "out of an abundance of caution". Given these numbers, we should continue to vaccinate out of an abundance of caution. These people would refuse to board a rescue vessel because "it seems kind of unstable" and prefer to keep treading water.
- yoaviram 6y ago
  An hypothesis: I'm not sure about Germany but in France, Spain and several other European countries 40% of the population do not want to get vaccinated. I believe the countries that have suspended AZ have done so so that those who generally doubt the safety of vaccination don't have a reason to further doubt this one. Even if a small percentage of those 40% is convinced by this act it's a large number of people.
  - _Wintermute 6y ago
    Or alternatively they've added extra doubts to the vaccination effort which will result in more people deciding not to get a vaccine. In my opinion they're very much pandering to the large anti-vax populations of these countries.
- Mudface_72 6y ago
  The headline is misleading, half of Europe put AZ on hold. Because the complications hit young health workers. We prefer to keep our health workers alive, maybe other countries have other strategies, just go ahead, maybe we will follow. On Monday Germany, Spain, Italy, and France were among those to suspend deployment of the vaccine, following similar moves made last week by Denmark, Norway, Ireland, and others.
jedberg 6y ago
Three weeks ago I was debating someone here on HN, defending the FDAs choice to deny approval of the AZ vaccine. I pointed out that while the FDA can be conservative compared to the EU, they have a strong track record of being right. Thalidomide is the most well known example, but there are many others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumiracoxib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumiracoxib -- Approved in Europe, not the USA. Withdrawn from sales due to side effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimelidine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimelidine -- Same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolrestat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolrestat -- Approved in Europe, failed stage 3 clinical in the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimonabant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimonabant -- Approved in Europe, failed in the USA, withdrawn worldwide because the side effects were so bad.
TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Most interesting would be data from the UK. My understanding is they've had by far the biggest AZ rollout, so any anomalies should be more obvious - assuming it's a design problem, and not caused by a manufacturing defect from one specific supply.
- mytailorisrich 6y ago
  Today in the news (in UK) the figures mentioned are that out of 17 million doses given in EU and UK they have recorded about 40 cases of blood clots. So far there is no indication of any link with the vaccine and the 'anomaly' is that these numbers represent less blood clots than they were expecting as, according to a Prof interviewed on BBC, blood clots occur at a rate of 1-2 per thousand people per year. The summary of the experts' opinion in the UK is that those countries' decision to suspend the vaccine is "baffling".
de6u99er 6y ago
My better half was olanned to get vaccinated with it tomorrow. Because of people dying from blood clots after getting vaccinated, we decided it might be a good idea to take Aspirine as blood thinner. But today I read that oeople had issues with bleeding and cloting.
- geek_at 6y ago
  actually the numbers state that AstraZeneca reduces blood clots. AstraZeneca: 13 Pulmonary embolisms Pfizer-BioNTech: 15 Pulmonary embolisms
whyenot 6y ago
Vaccine skepticism is already very high in many European countries, including Germany. Vaccination doesn't work if 1/3 to 1/2 the population doesn't want to get the vaccine because they are afraid of the side effects. There may be some value in governments showing citizens how cautious they are being, even if it is not necessarily warranted based on the number of adverse reactions.
- BrissyCoder 6y ago
  > Vaccination doesn't work if 1/3 to 1/2 the population doesn't want to get the vaccine because they are afraid of the side effects. I get that herd immunity won't occur if a significant proportion of population isn't immunized... but it still works on an individual basis.
  - uomo 6y ago
    Yes, but herd immunity makes it possible to protect the total population from a disease including the ones that cannot get vaccinated, such as children or those with contraindications.
    - offby37years 6y ago
      What's the COVID-induced death rate among children again?
      - xeromal 6y ago
        I think it's something like .0000000000000004%
  - krona 6y ago
    but it still works on an individual basis. It's less effective if the recipient believes the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous, and can make side effects more likely to occur (nocebo effect).
    - 6y ago
GhostVII 6y ago
Sounds like a real world case of the trolly problem. Either take no action (by giving out no vaccine) and let hundreds die each day, or give out the vaccine and kill a few people each day (assuming the vaccine is causing the deaths, which likely isn't the case anyways).
- garmaine 6y ago
  > assuming the vaccine is causing the deaths, which likely isn't the case anyways The number of people who got sick equals the base rate, so I really don't see how this could be the case.
- azinman2 6y ago
  That trolly problem is a one off. Having a major vaccine lead to serious issues puts all of vaccines into question, creating a far larger problem spanning time. It's already the case that various sub-communities are hesitant to get the vaccine based upon previous experimentation on their populations long ago, such as the Tuskegee Study.
  - thelean12 6y ago
    > Having a major vaccine lead to serious issues puts all of vaccines into question, creating a far larger problem spanning time. Is pulling the vaccine (with minimal evidence that it's causing issues) worse? How many people are going to turn down the AZ vaccine now, even if there's not actually an issue?
    - ineedasername 6y ago
      People turning it down would happen anyway once the reports started coming out. By withdrawing it pending more data, when (if) it comes back to market there will be increased confidence that it's been properly vetted. At least, more confidence than if it was left on the market as clotting reports continued to roll in. I don't think there's really a good answer here though. It's balancing human lives in the basis of imperfect data and predictions of human behavior.
    - 6y ago
mchusma 6y ago
The language here confuses the truth. They banned people from taking a vaccine that is very safe and effective. Give people a choice.
unanswered 6y ago
This was always going to happen. Make it political/religious that the vaccine is 1000% safe and anyone who says otherwise is antiscience and probably a white nationalist. Then discover there may be some issues with the vaccine after all. Now the train has no fucking brakes, so you've got to derail it instead. Meanwhile we "anti-science" folks who have been blowing the whistle all along that the vaccines were not and could not even theoretically have been adequately tested (9 women can't make a baby in one month!) will just get shat on some more for some reason.
ptaipale 6y ago
At the moment, the decision-making looks like a trolley-problem. You've set the trolley to move on the "let's vaccinate" track. You have a risk that there might be a person who suffers down those tracks. If you pull the lever to stop vaccinating, on its path on the other track, the covid trolley will smash into 20 people. Because you will be held accountable for vaccination but not for progression of covid, you pull the lever to change tracks. As one person draws it in Twitter: https://twitter.com/MiettinenTopi/status/1371702220174016520 https://twitter.com/MiettinenTopi/status/1371702220174016520
theptip 6y ago
Worth noting that the EMA says (in bold): > the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine in preventing COVID-19, with its associated risk of hospitalisation and death, outweigh the risks of side effects. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-cont...

331 points by mpsq 6y ago

Physicians in Norway have now found specific antibodies destroying platelets and concluded that it is very unlikely that the vaccine is not the cause Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/i/QmwR1V/professor-om-mistenkte-vaksinebivirkninger-aarsaken-er-funnet https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=no&tl=en&u=https:/...

pixiemaster 6y ago

with ~300 deaths per day in germany, how many people will this kill?

greenpresident 6y ago
Casual estimates are at 1700/week. https://mobile.twitter.com/politicsforali/status/1371479008416821250 https://mobile.twitter.com/politicsforali/status/13714790084...
- mns 6y ago
  So you are saying that no one would die in Germany if the vaccine would not be temporarily suspended? That's a bit simplistic. Not to mention that we go so far as to consider that every life is precious and we need to fight for every single COVID patient, but the people that could be affected by this are just statistically insignificant.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    From the numbers I saw, the problems with AZ seem to affect only a very small portion of people. It kind of feels like people are only now reading the note that comes with a drug. And we are using these drugs on millions of people, so yeah even the one in a million complications will start to show. It sure seems that AZ is singled out on that so. And I really wonder why. Because it sure is getting into dangerous territory by now that we are artificialy limiting our vaccine availability.
  - FpUser 6y ago
    >"we go so far as to consider that every life is precious" We who? If you're talking about healthcare the chances of survival are constantly moderated by various policies ( both government and private ) against the money spent.
- yayr 6y ago
  this does not seem to be official the usual figure now is 5 Million vaccinations and 30 reported deaths from blood clotting. Which appears to be not much different from the number without vaccinations. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine-delays-over-blood-clot-fears-raise-new-n1260945 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/oxford-astrazeneca-vaccin...
  - greenpresident 6y ago
    The estimate I name is the number of additional people dying per week if we stop using AZ vaccines today.
  - tlogan 6y ago
    My understanding is that they were 30 blood clotting cases - not deaths. Am I correct?
- niklasbuschmann 6y ago
  This number is highly dependent on the case numbers of a country, so I wouldn't be too sure about it. My very rough calculation: There are ~ 200,000 vaccines administered daily in Germany, of which maybe 50% are AstraZeneca, so lets say we are delaying 100,000 vaccines / day - corresponding to 0.1% of the population vaccinated with Astra-Zeneca per day. Currently there are ~ 200 daily COVID-19 deaths in Germany, so in proportion one would expect ~ 0.2 additional deaths per day (~2 per week) due to the delay. Assuming people prioritised to get AstraZeneca are 10x as likely to die from COVID than the general population, this still leaves us with 20 deaths / week due to the delay. The big question is now how many people will die because they are infected by someone who could have gotten vaccinated sooner, but with a R of ~1, and less than 20 weeks until the whole population is vaccined, I doubt this will give two more orders of magnitude.
isolli 6y ago
Vaccine-related deaths are highly visible, daily covid deaths not so much...
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  This is just after like post 9/11, when a large percentage of travelers decided to drive instead of fly out of fear of plane hijackings. Even though you're orders of magnitude more likely to die in a car accident than an act of terrorism.
- WesolyKubeczek 6y ago
  They have been very visible a year ago (jeez, it's been a year already, what a time to live in), but people got mightily desensitized to this. 300 more deaths? Meh. In the other news, the sun continues to rise every morning. Until of course it's yourself, a family member, or a friend that joins the rank of those 300.
  - isolli 6y ago
    To be fair, people in Germany were quite worried when covid deaths were around 1000 per day. 300 deaths per day is on par with a bad flu season. The important question, of course, is: are deaths on the way up or down?
exyi 6y ago
Maybe many immediately. However, getting bad press for vaccines and the government not doing enough to prevent "unnecessary" death could decrease the voluntary vaccination rate significantly. That would bring much more problems in the long term. Of course, you can only guess what would happen, they want to play the safe game, medicine in general is not a friend with risk.

dash2 6y ago

This seems like a case where the precautionary principle is misleading. Maybe there's a small chance that the vaccine can be harmful for a few people. Meanwhile there's a large chance that not having the vaccine can increase your chance of getting COVID. Doesn't even a week's delay in vaccinating predictably increase the number of deaths in a country, perhaps by a large amount given the nonlinear dynamics of epidemics? I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so.

throaway_484888 6y ago
> I'm assuming that these decisions aren't political and are genuinely being taken for medical reasons. I mean, I sure hope so. It's the EU's punishment for the UK leaving. I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise.
- oezi 6y ago
  The EU is punishing itself? - AstraZeneka is part swedish. - The vaccine is approved and the contracts are signed. No money back for adverse effects.
  - throaway_484888 6y ago
    > The EU is punishing itself? Yes they're cutting their nose off to spite their face! Or to let their own citizens die - whatever it takes to have a pop at the British! The UK is having success using primarily AstraZeneca (not 'AstraZeneka') and the EU don't like that, so they're attacking it.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  The drop in export volume is probably punishment enough, this would be a bizarre play
- ketzu 6y ago
  > It's the EU's punishment for the UK leaving. I don't think anyone really thinks otherwise. Then call me the first one, I seriously doubt this is the reason.

jonplackett 6y ago

Maybe AZ should have charged €3 per shot instead of €2 and spent the extra € on a PR agency. They just seem to be constantly taking a hammering in the press, unfairly I’d say.

DoingIsLearning 6y ago
To be fair, I think the contract between AZ and Oxford University actually restricts them from making a profit for a period of N months/years. So they are only technically allowed to adjust the price to take into account the different operational costs depending on the manufacturing site.
- signal11 6y ago
  I believe AZ have said they will not profit off the vaccine until the pandemic ends. The interesting thing is that they may get to decide when that happens.[1] [1] https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-puts-a-time-limit-its-covid-19-no-profit-pledge-report https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-puts-a-time-...
  - hef19898 6y ago
    From top of my head, not before June / July or when the WHO declares the end of the pandemic.
- jonplackett 6y ago
  Yes I did know that (I’m just being silly really) but even so, PR is a cost and so they wouldn’t even be making any more profit! I do think people aren’t giving AZ enough credit for doing it at cost though. Especially compared to the €50 per dose Pfizer initially quoted the EU!
patrickmcnamara 6y ago
Not that unfairly. They keep reducing vaccine deliveries on short notice in the EU and have been opaque in general. I think they have delivered about 10% of what they agreed to for Q1.

giantandroids 6y ago

You do have to wonder if some of this is politically driven. Germany are losing hundreds of life's a day, while in the meantime the UK has administrated 23 million doses (not sure the ratio of those that were AstraZeneca) and not recorded a single fatality or adverse reaction and are seeing infection rates / deaths drop. I can understand caution under normal circumstances, but nothing is normal right now.

high_derivative 6y ago
Same thought, I think this is part of political cover for the failing (in comparison) vaccination effort's in continental Europe. 'See, we were right not to vaccinate this fast' For the downvoters: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/evidence-oxford-vaccine-blood-clots-data-causal-links https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/15/eviden...
- mns 6y ago
  If someone would say this about COVID, they would be downvoted into oblivion for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. It's already 6 countries in the EU that reported issues until now.
  - high_derivative 6y ago
    The difference being that there is no evidence yet to point towards vaccinations causing these, while there is plenty evidence for covid. Further, there is plenty of evidence for the lost lives by NOT vaccinating faster.
  - hef19898 6y ago
    Yeah, and I rightly so if you ask me. AZ seems so to get all the heat in the press. I really wonder why, but as soon as you start looking at the numbers, there never seems to be something to it. First it was efficiany with elderly in the study, were the numbers were totally misunderstood. Then it was overall effectiveness, then prevention of severe cases. The list goes on. In the meanwhile, the press is reporting every single rash people get with AZ. EDIT: Just checked, they found 7 cases of thrombosis in the brain, out of 1.6 million vaccinated people. Well, we'll see how that develops.

fasteddie31003 6y ago

The pandemic has made me believe we need to be greater consiquentalists in our polices. It's pretty obvious that on the whole the AstraZeneca vax will save more people than are killed from the side effects. We don't not live in a 0 risk existence.

corndoge 6y ago
Is that obvious? If you have the choice between self quarantining and trying to avoid contracting a virus that, if contracted, has a low percentage of killing you, vs choosing to get a vaccine that also has a low percentage of killing you, why would you choose the vaccine?
- dcolkitt 6y ago
  This is like saying you should never leave your house, because you could die in a car accident. (And the chance of dying from the AZ vaccine is at most the chance of dying driving to vaccination site.)
  - corndoge 6y ago
    No, it's not like saying that
- scotty79 6y ago
  Because one "low" is few orders of magnitude lower than other "low".
  - corndoge 6y ago
    Right, but that's assuming you get the virus; to properly compare it you have to factor the chance you contract the virus in the first place. I'm not saying the math works out better, I haven't done it myself, but I'd bet most people would choose to try to avoid contracting
    - shawabawa3 6y ago

maxerickson 6y ago

It seems the rate of these conditions isn't any different for the vaccinated than for the population (last bit of the article makes this point). What's the thought process here?

dazc 6y ago
EU leaders shooting themselves in the foot? Not sure what thought goes into that scenario other than none at all? WHO say no evidence of any risk https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56404542
detaro 6y ago
Yeah, this seems to make no sense from the outside and the data I've seen, which all puts this in fairly normal ranges. And not enough transparency into the why then IMHO. But well, transparency into why this is supposed to make sense is something sorely missing from German covid policies for a long time now... EDIT: as pointed out elsewhere, the official press release gives us that there has been new data in the past few days with a specific concern, that's at least some info.
5cents 6y ago
The rates at population levels are not enough. These are rare cases and, at least partially, in groups of people who shouldn't get that ill and suddenly die
- maxerickson 6y ago
  Last week, Lothar Wieler, head of Germany’s Robert Koch Institute for Infectious Diseases, said there was no evidence that patients who received the vaccine were more likely than patients of a similar age group to suffer blood conditions. Is that guy wrong or basing the statement on outdated information?
  - Sol- 6y ago
    Might be outdated, since he talks about clotting generally but the agency in charge of halting the vaccinations mentions a specific rare complication today [1]: > accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in connection with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Perhaps really just a bad batch somehow if this particular complication wasn't observed in the UK. [1] https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html;jsessionid=AD409086F8AF10805A878F1450B75D9C.intranet221?nn=164440 https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...

ssully 6y ago

Just announced that France is also suspending use of the vaccine [1] [1]: https://apnews.com/article/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-clotting-0ab2c4fe13370c96c873e896387eb92f https://apnews.com/article/germany-suspends-astrazeneca-vacc...

lgeorget 6y ago
Until tomorrow afternoon, when the european agency in charge of approving drugs should give its guidance on the matter. [1] [1]: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/live/message/604/f7f/da5/ff4/e9f/159/a23/2b4.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/live/message/604/f7f/da5/ff4/e9f... (in French)

johnnycerberus 6y ago

Judging by what the German press is writing nowadays about their politicans, especially the populists (and the unionists also) that are increasingly frustrated on the incapability of Germany (and the EU altogether) to handle the COVID situation and deliver a homemade vaccine, without the help of the USA and UK, it doesn't surprise me. It could be politically.

fab1an 6y ago
Germany has a "homemade" vaccine (BioNTech), in fact it was the first reliable vaccine on the market, and pioneering an entirely new medical paradigm at it, but the EC botched the process of acquiring it.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  How can you botch acquiring something being developed and made in own country?
  - jansan 6y ago
    That is what we have been asking us for more than two months. This almost looks like sabotage.
  - semigroupoid 6y ago
    Because it is not made in Germany. Pfizer is responsible for producing it and their plants are primarily in the US.
    - fab1an 6y ago
      I don't think that's the case, the US isn't exporting any vaccines afaik and the EU doses are primarily produced in Europe.
      - tpush 6y ago
        The manufacturing of the vaccine is a three-stage process[0]: The First stage is done in the US. The second stage is done in the US and Germany. The third stage is done in the US and Belgium. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine#Manufacturing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer–BioNTech_COVID-19_vacci...

dustinmoris 6y ago

1. Hype up a virus to create a pandemic of fear 2. Hype up fear against the vaccine which would get you out of the pandemic of fear 3. Impose the most outrageous and ridiculous restrictions on people's lives which make it even illegal to see your own family. 4. Control by fear Anyone who still follows restrictions is not worthy of life.

jansan 6y ago

How many countries have stopped AZ fo far? - Denmark - Norway - Ireland - Netherlands - Iceland - Bulgaria - Romania (only partly, see child comment) Am I missing any?

throwaway210222 6y ago
DRC
- throwaway210222 6y ago
  DRC downvoted? Here you go then: https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/drc-postpones-covid-19-vaccination-campaign-over-blood-clot-fears-14360d22-bfa4-54a4-a984-c978c1bfd0f3 https://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/drc-postpones-covid-19-vac... Sigh
scruple 6y ago
France.
clawoo 6y ago
> - Romania Romania hasn't, only for specific lot numbers that were reported by Italy and Denmark as problematic.
alberto_ol 6y ago
Italy
jansan 6y ago
South Africa stopped using it in February, because it did not work well against their mutant. Not sure about current status.
johnnycerberus 6y ago
Romania did not stop the vaccination. It is ongoing. Only the faulty ones (as believed from the intel/reports we got from Italy and Netherlands) were eliminated from the pool.
6y ago

calhoun137 6y ago

Since these vaccines got emergency use authorization, that means they did not follow the standard procedure for clinical trials. Therefore, precautionary measures which respond dynamically to trends detected in newly available data, is the logical, ethical, and scientifically correct thing to do, imo.

willis936 6y ago
What newly available data?
totalZero 6y ago
The foundational weakness in what you're saying is that politicians tend to make decisions based on sentiment, rather than basing their actions on data. I'm not saying the conclusion is incorrect, but it's driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt -- not quite the same as a clear evidentiary basis. That could be acceptable if the logic goes that AZN bears the burden of proving that every potential adverse side effect is extremely rare. However, by that logic the vaccinations will be paused several times and more people will suffer due to COVID.
makomk 6y ago
As I understand it, one of the reasons vaccinations were so delayed in the EU compared to the UK is that they went through the normal approval process rather than emergency use authorization.

5cents 6y ago

In Norway, two health care workers are receiving intensive care for isolated low platelets and blood clotting. A third was also admitted but died from a cerebral catastrophe. These are all young (<50 years) and previously healthy. Of course this is serious and needs proper investigation. Maybe the risk for some specific groups justify giving them another vaccine?

temp-dude-87844 6y ago

Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine (which is often perceived worse than harm that would have befallen people without medicine) and highest chance of avoiding an increase of brand-agnostic vaccine mistrust from the public. As news about some countries pausing its deployment spread, the pressure rises on other countries to follow suit, as they weigh the risk of public mistrust. If in the near future, public mistrust about this brand of vaccine climbs higher but confidence in other vaccines does not drop as much, then governments will benefit from having deferred deployment of this vaccine, and they may benefit further by suspending deployment of this vaccine entirely, even if the vaccine is entirely vindicated to be safe. This outcome would be unfair for the manufacturer, but it would sacrifice this brand to preserve public trust. Public trust is a key factor in healthcare policy in societies where some healthcare participation is voluntary and elections can significantly influence policy priorities.

Zebrakopf 6y ago
Thank you temp-dude for this viewpoint. I did not think about it in this way before. Weighing the possible deaths of barring one of the vaccines against the possible deaths of a rise in mistrust towards vaccines seems like an impossible task. However, the findings of blood clotting alone would not have sufficed for this argument as they really should be no cause for concern at this point in time. The knee-jerk response of other countries on the other hand makes this reasoning much more valid. Something something self-fulfilling prophecy
macspoofing 6y ago
>Given that some amount of alternate vaccines are available, governments are doing the right thing by "deferring" deployment of this vaccine for a short while, because this move has the highest chance avoiding direct harm to people from medicine I think so too, especially since AZ is one of the least effective ones available.

gt565k 6y ago

oh boy anti-vaxxing groups on FB are gonna eat this up all things considered, that's pretty bad news if they fucked up on some batches and people died because of poor QA

VBprogrammer 6y ago
The anti-vax groups have been eating this up since before it was even related to the AZ vaccination. There were posts about medical professionals in the US who received the Pfizer vaccine having similar issues shortly after having that injection.
- jokethrowaway 6y ago
  Those cases actually happened (they've been reported by reputable sources, not anti-vaxxers blogs), but nobody cared because the numbers are small. It's definitely weird to see countries reacting when this happens with AZ.
  - VBprogrammer 6y ago
    Sure those cases happened. Of course in a country of 300 million people strange stuff happens every day. What is more likely, that two independently developed and tested vaccines using a different technique both have the same rare side effect or that these things happen at a low level in the population and are completely uncorrelated with the vaccine?
rhino369 6y ago
They would eat it up if this was swept under the rug and it later comes out there was a problem. You can't cover up and refuse to investigate merely because the investigation might have bad optics. The worst case scenario is that there is problem, its gets covered up, and then a few weeks later the problem kills people and now the public has zero faith in vaccines.

the-dude 6y ago

The EU commission has framed AZ as not trustworthy from the moment the first delivery targets could not be met. This has influenced public opinion in NL quite a bit ( in DE too I suspect ). I can read in the local comment sections that people want to decline the AZ vaccine as they don't trust it, and it is only 60% effective. They would rather have Pfizer, even Sputnik or rather no vacination at all than AZ. These commenters seem quite hostile to AZ and the UK for that matter. And these comments are from before the clotting allegations. This is and has been quite a contra-productive negotiation strategy from the EU commission, directly endangering public health in my humbe opinion.

libertine 6y ago
It's funny because on the other way around it seems like the British Government did precisely the opposite by selling this vaccine as a prime example of British superiority and why "Brexit makes sense". You're criticizing EU commission for transparently expose the shortcomings of this private company, but you seem to forget what this wave of what apparently are thousands of "internet specialists" that know better then independent regulator bodies for medicines. Yes, this isn't EMA (that British propaganda painted as a slow and incompetent agency) - it's each country own regulator that have been responsible for the safety of millions of citizens, and they have been doing a pretty good job for many, many years. This isn't a joint operation. It's scientists expressing their concern about these cases which are anything but normal. Or now, every single EU country regulator (including Norway) are all incompetent, including the doctors who reported these cases and are following closely their development? They're all in this conspiracy to put down AZ? I mean people rightfully criticize anti-vaxxers, but trust me, this bullshit attitude is just the same as the anti-vaxxers. It's blind fanaticism towards a vaccine, that even science should be disregarded, exactly the extreme opposite of anti-vaxxes.
zajio1am 6y ago
> The EU commission has framed AZ as not trustworthy from the moment the first delivery targets could not be met. AZ was considered less trustworthy than Pfizer or Moderna vaccines several months before that due to irregularities in phase 3 clinical trials (original dosage leads to ~62% efficacy, while inadvertently given half-dose to a part of test subject leads to higher efficacy): https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32623-4/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... Conflicts between AZ and EU commission seems silly compared to that and IMHO lead more to discreditation of Ursula von der Leyen.

yread 6y ago

I've mentioned it in a comment in the previous thread but it's not completely unexpected and with no causal link. Adenovirus induced blood coagulation problems are known: Adenovirus-induced thrombocytopenia: the role of von Willebrand factor and P-selectin in mediating accelerated platelet clearance https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006497120417847 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S000649712... You can see the number of reported cases across Europe in the EUDRA Vigilance database (if you manage to get through the Oracle BI interface and if it doesn't error out) https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-development/pharmacovigilance/eudravigilance https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/research-devel... I don't understand why AstraZeneca doesn't just say: yeah blood clots are a risk, incidence 1/100,000 and everyone can move on. Why does everything needs to be so politicized with this vaccine.

colechristensen 6y ago
>Why does everything needs to be so politicized with this vaccine It is politicized because it effects more or less everyone on the planet and people are setup to take popular things and turn them into polarizing issues for political power in politicians and social capital for ordinary people. This is how a whole lot of people seek out happiness, by being "right" in their social circles, especially in a way that shows them as superior to large groups of others who are "wrong". Social media preys intentionally or unintentionally on this human psychological vulnerability (can we get a CVE on the human psyche?) and every bit of media wants to sell you a compelling story so they stoke the flames of A/B conflicts. The mass psychology/mythology/philosophy of the day is based around this crap and will turn anything into a "political" issue and people just generally aren't well educated enough to think independently or evaluate situations rationally on their own so they allow their reason to be driven by systems which are evolutionarily dependent on preying on addictive human behavior.
- mikem170 6y ago
  Agreed. I add that the 24-hour news cycle is in it for the clicks, and they get lots of clicks selling fear. Risk assessment isn't one of our stong suits, either (human nature being what it is).

lkjlwekfjklwejf 6y ago

Fauci is a fucking piece of shit fascist. He needs to nine-ironed in the head.

lkjlwekfjklwejf 6y ago

https://patriots.win/p/12hkvmnScu/fauci-more-pandemics-in-the-futu/ https://patriots.win/p/12hkvmnScu/fauci-more-pandemics-in-th... Now this fucking piece of shit asshole says "more pandemics in the future because of climate change" GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY COUNTRY YOU COMMIE FUCK!

petre 6y ago

They should at least donate the vaccines to Ukraine and Moldova and other poorer countries through the Covax mechanism instead of letting them go to waste. I'm due to get vaccinated with AZ in less that two weeks and I will deninitely do it regardless, if doesn't get halted of course. Most EU countries decided to use it on recipients older than 55 and now they're halting it due to a baseless claim. It has worked fine and the UK has already vaccinated millions of people with it. https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2021/03/07/extent-damage-astrazeneca-vaccines-perceived-safet https://yougov.co.uk/topics/international/articles-reports/2...

fab1an 6y ago

Looks like this may be a bit more relevant than many of the snarky comments would suggest - the relevant German authority on this said that they have seen a unexpected increase in a specific type of blood clotting issue that usually is very rare: https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voruebergehende-aussetzung-impfung-covid-19-impfstoff-astra-zeneca.html;jsessionid=0A4D9FE5C5CDCC1653D879D8FE82082E.intranet211 https://www.pei.de/DE/newsroom/hp-meldungen/2021/210315-voru...

Rochus 6y ago
From the article: Compared to the status of 11.03.2021, additional cases (as of Monday, 15.03.2021) have now been reported in Germany. In the analysis of the new data status, the experts of the Paul Ehrlich Institute now see a striking accumulation of a special form of very rare cerebral vein thrombosis (sinus vein thrombosis) in conjunction with a deficiency of blood platelets (thrombocytopenia) and bleeding in temporal proximity to vaccinations with the COVID-19 vaccine AstraZeneca. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
- elboulangero 6y ago
  There's an English version straight on their site, no need for a translator: https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-informs-temporary-suspension-vaccination-astra-zeneca.html https://www.pei.de/EN/newsroom/hp-news/2021/210315-pei-infor...
  - Rochus 6y ago
    Looks like they have used DeepL as well ;-)
refraincomment 6y ago
Okay, so they looked for correlations with a million conditions and when they found a vaguely significant one they automatically suspended the vaccination campaign prolonging by days or weeks the national lockdown.
6y ago

matthewmorgan 6y ago

From the BBC's health correspondent: "The data supplied by AstraZeneca shows there have been 37 reports of blood clots among the 17m people across Europe who have been given the vaccine" ... "The 37 reports are below the level you would expect. What is more, there is no strong biological explanation why the vaccine would cause a blood clot."

verytrivial 6y ago

As far as I understand it, the EU member states are not generally short on doses, more on distribution and other regulatory issues. If they pause AZ, they can use something else which is already being manufactured right now, and likely within the EU, quelle surprise. I would not be surprised if this is simply a political and economic snub from the EU, one of very many the UK can expect over the coming decades. The UK has spent the last half decade ENDLESSLY trying to score points against the EU on any and every topic. This sort of wrangling is part and parcel for the relationship the UK has chosen. Basically, if the current UK Government has gone anywhere NEAR this topic, don't expect the truth to linger. This certainly includes the chest-beating around the AZ vaccine, which the government were actually going to require be shipped with a fscking Union Flag on every vial. Edit: My understanding was based around stories like this suggesting some delays, that AZ were "striving" to deliver, and more dosed being ordered after AZ testing not covering over 65s (at the time), some hesitancy, and general mud slinging. When I say "generally short" I guess I should say that I doubt even the chest-beating Brits will be fully two-dose vaccinated to 80-90% before Autumn. It's been a year and a month or two is second order optimization in my view. If you are concerned about shortages, there are some other continents to consider first. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/astrazeneca-expected-to-miss-eu-covid-vaccine-supply-target-by-half-in-second-quarter-report https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/24/astrazeneca-ex... https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/02/18/EU-adds-350-million-COVID-19-vaccine-doses-from-Moderna-Pfizer https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/02/18/EU-add...

atleta 6y ago
Depends on how you define short on doses. We have less than what we've planned but we seem to adminster less than we have at the moment.
s_dev 6y ago
>As far as I understand it, the EU member states are not generally short on doses Let me correct that understanding. The EU is absolutely short on doses. AZ has only delivered 10% of what they promised. There is no doubt if the EU had a greater supply the vaccine rollout would be going much better.
6y ago

tablespoon 6y ago

It's also worth noting that it seems like Germans perceive the AstraZenica vaccine as second-rate, and were even skipping appointments in the hope of getting the Pfizer/BioNTech shot later. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/world/europe/germany-coronavirus-vaccines-astrazeneca.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/25/world/europe/germany-coro...: > Many people — including health workers — are skipping appointments or refusing to sign up for the AstraZeneca shot, which they fear is less effective than the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, the officials say. As a result, two weeks after the first delivery of 1.45 million doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine arrived in Germany, only 270,986 have been administered, according to data collected by the public health authority, the Robert Koch Institute.

f430 6y ago
I think the concerns are very valid about AZ and German's have a right to choose. Big point is that HN is largely an American forum so there will be a bias against AZ doubters. Interesting that Twitter and Facebook also not labeling the concerns about AZ as "Fake News" so likely there is some merit to the claims against AZ. I am also against taking AZ as well. If HN folks are confident it is fine go ahead. I will choose what I'm comfortable with and Germans or anybody else for that matter should have a say.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Why would there be an American bias against AZ doubters? It's not approved in the US and I expect a lot of otherwise pro-vax people would not want an AZ vaccine--which, in at least some states, is not actually a choice you have once a vaccine is approved.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

motohagiography 6y ago

There is an availability bias, where stories about people dying after vaccinations are amplified in fringe media, and conversely, the numbers of people who died in nursing homes of actual covid were suppressed by mainstream authorities. There's uncertainty on every part of the issue. Interpreting the general uncertainty we live with as evidence for a hidden agenda on the part of authorities is it's own self fulfilling bias, but when I read about these vaccine risks, I'm looking for a plausible model of the options. I would (and did) jump out of planes with a parachute recreationally, but if untrustworthy people started advocating it, proposing it should be mandatory, and unstable people dressed up in double flight suits in the streets started shaming others into doing it, I would definitely not jump out of planes anymore. If it were true that the probability of complications/death from covid are heavily skewed to people over 75 and some obvious co-morbidities, we could vaccinate everyone in that risk group in a matter of weeks. What is the case for anyone who isn't a medical worker outside the real at-risk cohort to take on the endogenous risk of a vaccine? I could make one, but I'm more interested in what more knowledgeable people have to say about it, and judging by rising popular skepticism, we're going to need one. When covid started last year, as someone young'ish and healthy I signed up to volunteer for human challenge trials and started to organize a convalescent plasma drive, because that's what I thought being civic minded meant. I have living family members who were affected by polio before widespread vaccinations were available, and recognize the importance of vaccines on herd immunity. After a year of hall of mirrors bullshit about masks and politics, I'm struggling with the case for why a low-risk healthy person would take a vaccine with non-trivial side effect risks for a virus that is less dangerous than their normal activities, when the vulnerable people who get vaccinated (for whom the risk/reward is clearer) are no longer vulnerable. Is there a conversation to be had on the model for this, or does it come down to "conspiracy theorists who put us at risk," vs. "normal people" and there's no point in engaging it? Is the best argument just a matter of, "we live in a society and part of that is accepting the jab?"

rurban 6y ago

So far they only vaccinated older people with it. These complications all happened in younger people where we don't have a coverage if millions. More like a few thousands. Thanksfully Germany acted now rationally, like the other countries. One idea would be to administer only half the dosis on younger people, as this was already tested, with much better results than with the full dosis. AZ is pretty strong, compared to the others.

rossdavidh 6y ago

So, does anyone know why Astra/Zeneca is not approved in the U.S.? Did they not try, or it's still ongoing, or did they have problems?

sampo 6y ago
My understanding is, FDA requires data from trials run on US population. Trials from other countries are not sufficient alone. AstraZeneca is currently running a trial in the US.
zain 6y ago
They haven’t submitted to the FDA for emergency use authorization yet because their trials aren’t done yet. Their trials started well after Pfizer/Moderna and are longer than J&J. They’re expected to apply in the next 3-4wks.
pkaye 6y ago
The trial were delayed. I read just today that the results are being reviewed to see if sufficient for submittal to the FDA.

sampo 6y ago

I have seen 2 similar cases of immune thrombocytopenia in the news in US, one related to the Moderna vaccine, and one related to the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocytopenia-covid-vaccine-blood.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/08/health/immune-thrombocyto... (alternative link: https://archive.is/RisZF https://archive.is/RisZF) https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/doctors-death-after-covid-19-vaccine-is-being-investigated/ https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/doctors-death-afte...

jokethrowaway 6y ago

The deaths don't seem very high, I wonder if this is meant to be exactly the opposite of what they say: purely a political move to justify their slow vaccine rollout compared to the quick UK one (which used AZ).

globular-toast 6y ago

These vaccinations are the largest unethical experiment since the fear of fat.

mywacaday 6y ago

Poor reporting to not include that Italy, France, Ireland, Bulgaria, Denmark and The Netherlands have all paused the vaccine along with Norway which is mentioned. Expect better of Reuters.

elliekelly 6y ago
The very first sentence of the article makes it clear that Germany is neither the first nor only European country to suspend AZ vaccinations: > making it the latest of several European countries to hit pause The article also cites the EMA, an EU institution, and notes: > Several EU countries have called a halt to the AstraZeneca vaccine Would you have them list each and every country individually? It seems, to me, that you're just complaining for the sake of complaining. Expect better of HN comments.
- mywacaday 6y ago
  Yes, or at the very least the number of countries that have paused the vaccine, this is a rapidly changing story and where this reporting lands in the narrative is important. I had to go check anothe news site to see which/how many EU countries had now paused the Astra Zennica vaccine.

systemvoltage 6y ago

The PR damage alone from this move is undeniably going to cause an unimaginable amount of loss. People who were on the fence of taking the vaccine have just solidified on their decision.

donovanian 6y ago
The PR damage happens when authorities engage in noble lying and all of this weird non-transparent messaging. Public health really hasn't been upfront with a lot, and their back and forth on a number of issues, while maintaining this air of authority is ultimately counter-productive to building trust.

BaseS4 6y ago

Germany is clearly a conspiracy theorist. Vaccine injuries and faulty manufacturing ins Alex Jones-tier cringe. What's next, Germany offers diplomatic immunity for Qanon? Vaccines have never harmed anyone. I can't believe this is on HN.

agd 6y ago

Let’s see if any new data comes out, but from what’s public right now I can only see this pause costing many lives across Europe. We’ve had millions of doses in the UK without serious side effects, so unless there were faulty batches I think any risk must be minuscule, and certainly lower than the known risks of covid deaths for unvaccinated people. This is a case where a cautious ‘first do no harm’ approach will likely cost many lives.

libertine 6y ago
These cases are 4x greater then the ones in the UK, so either UK isn't reporting some cases, or something isn't right with AZ production. Also, I'm pretty sure each regulator knows the pros and cons of this decision, and they know well the consequences of stopping the vaccination - it's not like they are all incompetent. I mean, imagine the odds of the amount of ignorance to have reached this level of decision making in several independent countries. Not likely, at all. It's not a "a case where a cautious ‘first do no harm’ approach will likely cost many lives.", it's them doing their job and follow the procedure that has worked pretty well, based in science. It's what builds trust in vaccines and medicines, knowing that regulators are there, aware, and if they think something is wrong they won't take a stupid risk out of pride or pressure.
- agd 6y ago
  The European regulator and the WHO have said that countries should continue to vaccinate with the AZ vaccine, but the national governments are ignoring this. With this many countries pausing vaccinations, we know that there will potentially be thousands of extra deaths.
  - libertine 6y ago
    EMA retracted what was said and is evaluating the problem. The WHO doesn't want this event to spread to other countries, because the vaccine seems safe, this might be a production problem. Should be investigated, and if it's a bad batch shouldn't be given to people.

chmod775 6y ago

Absolute fucking stupidity. Thirty cases of blood clotting out of five million. More people will die because they're not vaccinated. And that's ignoring the fact that this may just be a statistical blip. There's a lot of diseases humans could catch, and sometimes there's going to be clusters. German politicians said they're suspending vaccinations "out of an abundance of caution". Given these numbers, we should continue to vaccinate out of an abundance of caution. These people would refuse to board a rescue vessel because "it seems kind of unstable" and prefer to keep treading water.

yoaviram 6y ago
An hypothesis: I'm not sure about Germany but in France, Spain and several other European countries 40% of the population do not want to get vaccinated. I believe the countries that have suspended AZ have done so so that those who generally doubt the safety of vaccination don't have a reason to further doubt this one. Even if a small percentage of those 40% is convinced by this act it's a large number of people.
- _Wintermute 6y ago
  Or alternatively they've added extra doubts to the vaccination effort which will result in more people deciding not to get a vaccine. In my opinion they're very much pandering to the large anti-vax populations of these countries.
Mudface_72 6y ago
The headline is misleading, half of Europe put AZ on hold. Because the complications hit young health workers. We prefer to keep our health workers alive, maybe other countries have other strategies, just go ahead, maybe we will follow. On Monday Germany, Spain, Italy, and France were among those to suspend deployment of the vaccine, following similar moves made last week by Denmark, Norway, Ireland, and others.

jedberg 6y ago

Three weeks ago I was debating someone here on HN, defending the FDAs choice to deny approval of the AZ vaccine. I pointed out that while the FDA can be conservative compared to the EU, they have a strong track record of being right. Thalidomide is the most well known example, but there are many others: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumiracoxib https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumiracoxib -- Approved in Europe, not the USA. Withdrawn from sales due to side effects. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimelidine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimelidine -- Same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolrestat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolrestat -- Approved in Europe, failed stage 3 clinical in the USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimonabant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rimonabant -- Approved in Europe, failed in the USA, withdrawn worldwide because the side effects were so bad.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago

Most interesting would be data from the UK. My understanding is they've had by far the biggest AZ rollout, so any anomalies should be more obvious - assuming it's a design problem, and not caused by a manufacturing defect from one specific supply.

mytailorisrich 6y ago
Today in the news (in UK) the figures mentioned are that out of 17 million doses given in EU and UK they have recorded about 40 cases of blood clots. So far there is no indication of any link with the vaccine and the 'anomaly' is that these numbers represent less blood clots than they were expecting as, according to a Prof interviewed on BBC, blood clots occur at a rate of 1-2 per thousand people per year. The summary of the experts' opinion in the UK is that those countries' decision to suspend the vaccine is "baffling".

de6u99er 6y ago

My better half was olanned to get vaccinated with it tomorrow. Because of people dying from blood clots after getting vaccinated, we decided it might be a good idea to take Aspirine as blood thinner. But today I read that oeople had issues with bleeding and cloting.

geek_at 6y ago
actually the numbers state that AstraZeneca reduces blood clots. AstraZeneca: 13 Pulmonary embolisms Pfizer-BioNTech: 15 Pulmonary embolisms

whyenot 6y ago

Vaccine skepticism is already very high in many European countries, including Germany. Vaccination doesn't work if 1/3 to 1/2 the population doesn't want to get the vaccine because they are afraid of the side effects. There may be some value in governments showing citizens how cautious they are being, even if it is not necessarily warranted based on the number of adverse reactions.

BrissyCoder 6y ago
> Vaccination doesn't work if 1/3 to 1/2 the population doesn't want to get the vaccine because they are afraid of the side effects. I get that herd immunity won't occur if a significant proportion of population isn't immunized... but it still works on an individual basis.
- uomo 6y ago
  Yes, but herd immunity makes it possible to protect the total population from a disease including the ones that cannot get vaccinated, such as children or those with contraindications.
  - offby37years 6y ago
    What's the COVID-induced death rate among children again?
    - xeromal 6y ago
      I think it's something like .0000000000000004%
- krona 6y ago
  but it still works on an individual basis. It's less effective if the recipient believes the vaccine is ineffective or dangerous, and can make side effects more likely to occur (nocebo effect).
  - 6y ago

GhostVII 6y ago

Sounds like a real world case of the trolly problem. Either take no action (by giving out no vaccine) and let hundreds die each day, or give out the vaccine and kill a few people each day (assuming the vaccine is causing the deaths, which likely isn't the case anyways).

garmaine 6y ago
> assuming the vaccine is causing the deaths, which likely isn't the case anyways The number of people who got sick equals the base rate, so I really don't see how this could be the case.
azinman2 6y ago
That trolly problem is a one off. Having a major vaccine lead to serious issues puts all of vaccines into question, creating a far larger problem spanning time. It's already the case that various sub-communities are hesitant to get the vaccine based upon previous experimentation on their populations long ago, such as the Tuskegee Study.
- thelean12 6y ago
  > Having a major vaccine lead to serious issues puts all of vaccines into question, creating a far larger problem spanning time. Is pulling the vaccine (with minimal evidence that it's causing issues) worse? How many people are going to turn down the AZ vaccine now, even if there's not actually an issue?
  - ineedasername 6y ago
    People turning it down would happen anyway once the reports started coming out. By withdrawing it pending more data, when (if) it comes back to market there will be increased confidence that it's been properly vetted. At least, more confidence than if it was left on the market as clotting reports continued to roll in. I don't think there's really a good answer here though. It's balancing human lives in the basis of imperfect data and predictions of human behavior.
  - 6y ago

mchusma 6y ago

The language here confuses the truth. They banned people from taking a vaccine that is very safe and effective. Give people a choice.

unanswered 6y ago

This was always going to happen. Make it political/religious that the vaccine is 1000% safe and anyone who says otherwise is antiscience and probably a white nationalist. Then discover there may be some issues with the vaccine after all. Now the train has no fucking brakes, so you've got to derail it instead. Meanwhile we "anti-science" folks who have been blowing the whistle all along that the vaccines were not and could not even theoretically have been adequately tested (9 women can't make a baby in one month!) will just get shat on some more for some reason.

ptaipale 6y ago

At the moment, the decision-making looks like a trolley-problem. You've set the trolley to move on the "let's vaccinate" track. You have a risk that there might be a person who suffers down those tracks. If you pull the lever to stop vaccinating, on its path on the other track, the covid trolley will smash into 20 people. Because you will be held accountable for vaccination but not for progression of covid, you pull the lever to change tracks. As one person draws it in Twitter: https://twitter.com/MiettinenTopi/status/1371702220174016520 https://twitter.com/MiettinenTopi/status/1371702220174016520

theptip 6y ago

Worth noting that the EMA says (in bold): > the benefits of the AstraZeneca vaccine in preventing COVID-19, with its associated risk of hospitalisation and death, outweigh the risks of side effects. https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-continues-investigation-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-thromboembolic-events https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/emas-safety-committee-cont...