9 ms·

Consider the outsourcing of American manufacturing. Instead of 500 American middle class households buying 5000 jeans, we have 5000 global lower class household

Consider the outsourcing of American manufacturing. Instead of 500 American middle class households buying 5000 jeans, we have 5000 global lower class households buying 50000 jeans, each pair cheaper than before due to economies of scale. The American middle class has slid down to the level of the global middle class, and the American upper class harvests profits from the entire world outside of America's borders.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>The American middle class has slid down to the level of the global middle class Which is not true. The average American earns more than the average European, let alone the average global citizen. Heck, even construction workers in the US make way more than in Germany or Denmark. Americans still have the highest purchasing power in the world and, most importantly, the highest economic mobility in the world. Whether that leads to a higher quality of life is up to the individual but Americans are still some of the most priviledged workers worldwide.
- cookiengineer 6y ago
  > The average American earns more than the average European The difference is that citizens of the EU don't die when the money stops flowing because there are multiple social insurances in place. So at least the reduction of income that is insurance should be considered a wrong measurement, because it's taken off before taxes.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
    EU countries have substantially better safety nets than the US, but you're overcorrecting if you see that as an ironclad guarantee that everyone can afford the necessities of life. Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there.
    - cookiengineer 6y ago
      > Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there. I totally agree with you there. Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). There are some initiatives in larger cities though where they provide shelters so that homeless people can have a legal postal address to get back on their feet.
      - pizza234 6y ago
        > Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). This is not specific of Germany/EU, and it's actually a principle of pretty much of any society. Countries can't just give away residence and money for free. If one belongs to EU, getting residence is easy; if not, the visa conditions apply. Therefore, you're talking about illegals (and/or refugees), which is a different matter. It's actually funny (in a tragic way) that countries like Germany or France took the highest number of refugees during the crisis (official stats: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...), and citizens still complain. In other words, ironically, countries may as well block entrance to asylum seekers, or throw homeless away out of the borders, and the public opinion will be negative regardless.
        cookiengineer 6y ago
        I was not talking about refugees in particular, but more in general about people that lost their home; implying that they had a German residence before, or were born in Germany and still have a German passport (aka Personalausweis). Those people that lost their home and would theoretically be willing to work still cannot; hence because they don't have a postal address which is required to get a bank account. Since the new Zahlungskontengesetz was established, all people that have a German citizenship have a right to get a Basiskonto [1] and banks must comply. Though the legal loophole here is that getting a bank account still requires a postal address. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    An EU citizen here. We have a more extensive social net - especially healthcare, true. But our homeless problem is pretty big too. People with addictions, people with cognitive problems, foreigners who do not speak the local language (HUGE obstacle in a borderless union of twenty languages!), people unfamiliar with the welfare regulations (it usually takes some hoops to jump through before you get some money) fall through the cracks in a way uncannily similar to the American one.
- glasss 6y ago
  Not disputing this at all, but I read some stats recently that the average American household income is so offset by the higher earners that the median income is something like 2 or 3 times less than the average. I imagine this cuts both ways. Do you recall if the language used was median or average?
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    The average is skewed everywhere by the high earners. In Germany if you remove all the millionaires, bankers, executives, industrialists and real estate magnates, you're left with a bunch of underpaid workers (blue and white collar) who will be serfs for life.
    - glasss 6y ago
      I figure this is the case, but with admittedly no stats in front of me I have a suspicion that the skew is worse in the US due a larger population and higher ceiling of the upper class. Regardless, my skew is apparently more off the mark than I recalled as another poster pointed out.
      - Ajef 6y ago
        I have found a source directly comparing US to German middle incomes incase you're interested. Figure 7 of this publication [1] seems to be relevant to this discussion and shows that the median net worth in all groups in Germany is lower. However it compares USD to EUR. Some of the other graphs in the publication showing wealth distribution may also be interesting. [1] https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.533123.de/diw_econ_bull_2016-18.pdf https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.53312... EDIT: The publication isn't the newest, being from 2016.
  - thunderbird120 6y ago
    Median household income in 2020 was $68,400, average was $97,973.61. That's a difference of ~1.4X which is not nearly as large as you are implying. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
- apatters 6y ago
  > Americans still have the highest economic mobility in the world. This part stopped being true at some point in the 21st century. The slowly shrinking disconnect between reality and this belief is imo the most powerful political force of our day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t...
  - bb123 6y ago
    I think we should call this disconnect what it is - brainwashing. Americans (and those that consume their media) are told from childhood that they are the only country where it is possible to move from the bottom to the top. Outside observers can clearly see that this is not the case, but when presented with hard evidence to the contrary it is simply dismissed as some untruth.
    - d1zzy 6y ago
      While it's not necessary to say "the only country" I think it IS necessary to "brainwash" people by potentially lying to them that it is possible to have economic mobility in order to actually enable it. If most people don't believe that they can have economic mobility then they simply won't even bother. In order to get many people to bother and try you need to convince everyone that it's possible, even if, in practice, few will manage to. It's a first step, a stepping stone. Of course, besides convincing people that it's possible you need to have an economy that makes it possible. So that would be the second step.
- yyyymmddhhmmss 6y ago
  >highest economic mobility This is just a bold-faced lie. It’s false by every measure. Americans have nowhere close to the highest economic mobility in the world. That hope retired with the baby boomers. >purchasing power Europeans have free healthcare and education. That alone accounts for far more than the difference. So, what are you counting as “purchasing power?” Then there’s all the other minimally functioning public amenities that Europeans have access to.
- yaitsyaboi 6y ago
  No, America is listed 27th in the world as far as economic mobility, behind most other highly industrialized, democratic countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index' As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile, I think this is a very interesting and sad aspect of American life. Especially how it is perceived vs the reality.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile Are you in the US? Because only there you have such high mobility. Good luck getting in the top quintile in Europe if you were born in the bottom. That is what real economic mobility looks like. Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European.
    - karpierz 6y ago
      I'm confused, the evidence clearly indicates that in this world, the US has much lower economic mobility than Europe. Which real world are you talking about?
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        What proof is there that the formula used to compile that ranking actually reflects real world economic mobility? Just because statistics say you shouldn't be poor doesn't mean you can't be poor. Just because statistically there is no racism in your area doesn't mean you won't get discriminated and deprived of opportunities. Because the when certain metrics are used to compile a formula that leads to any ranking, then those parameters are subject to gaming in order to meet an expected result so those statistics are meaningless at the end of the day when you can't move past a certain wage/social class due to the artificial barriers set by a feudal leadership. Statistically, the unemployment rate in my country should be about 2% while realistically it's much higher since the government doesn't count certain classes of people in odder to make the numbers look god in statistics for the EU. Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc to North Ameriac and Australia ended up with much more wealth to their name including their own houses vs the ones who moved to Western Europe who basically ended up as serfs to be renters for life. Do you see the problem with statistics as evidence? They don't tell the whole story.
- markvdb 6y ago
  > Americans still have [...] most importantly, the highest economic mobility in the world. Unfortunately, this is incorrect. If we are to believe the OECD [0], the US have near the lowest economic mobility of any developed country. [0] http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/social-mobility-2018-USA-EN.pdf http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/social-mobility-2018-USA-EN...
- pizza234 6y ago
  > The average American earns more than the average European, let alone the average global citizen. Heck, even construction workers in the US make way more than in Germany or Denmark. Is this based on data or a is it a generalized assumption? A short time ago, on HN, there was debate about the exactly opposite argument - that the purchasing power significantly decreased¹. [¹]: The Life in The Simpsons Is No Longer Attainable, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570611.
- imtringued 6y ago
  That's not the right mode of thinking. If you have an idle or underutilized workforce you want to put it to work because you are wasting it's productive output if it does nothing. Worse, it will start revolting if it has nothing better to do.
- michaelbrave 6y ago
  If I suspend my disbelief and lets say an average American makes more than an average European, is that before expenses or after? Because once we start factoring in rent, healthcare, cost of food or any other cost of living. Then is it of comparable quality? I know as far as healthcare goes it's a far lower standard that costs far more, the level of stress is far higher, the working hours are far longer. So even if they are making more money, I don't feel like it adds to their wealth or their lifestyle, which was kind of the point of making more money isn't it?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
colinmhayes 6y ago
This is likely true long term, but middle class Americans currently have more purchasing power than any other middle class group in the world.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>The American middle class has slid down to the level of the global middle class Which is not true. The average American earns more than the average European, let alone the average global citizen. Heck, even construction workers in the US make way more than in Germany or Denmark. Americans still have the highest purchasing power in the world and, most importantly, the highest economic mobility in the world. Whether that leads to a higher quality of life is up to the individual but Americans are still some of the most priviledged workers worldwide.

cookiengineer 6y ago
> The average American earns more than the average European The difference is that citizens of the EU don't die when the money stops flowing because there are multiple social insurances in place. So at least the reduction of income that is insurance should be considered a wrong measurement, because it's taken off before taxes.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  EU countries have substantially better safety nets than the US, but you're overcorrecting if you see that as an ironclad guarantee that everyone can afford the necessities of life. Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there.
  - cookiengineer 6y ago
    > Hunger and homelessness are still very real problems there. I totally agree with you there. Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). There are some initiatives in larger cities though where they provide shelters so that homeless people can have a legal postal address to get back on their feet.
    - pizza234 6y ago
      > Here in Germany, most homeless people could not even start to work because you need a legal residence to get a bank account (getting paid in cash or via check is illegal in Germany), so they cannot accept the Arbeitslosengeld (Hartz IV). This is not specific of Germany/EU, and it's actually a principle of pretty much of any society. Countries can't just give away residence and money for free. If one belongs to EU, getting residence is easy; if not, the visa conditions apply. Therefore, you're talking about illegals (and/or refugees), which is a different matter. It's actually funny (in a tragic way) that countries like Germany or France took the highest number of refugees during the crisis (official stats: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Asylum_statistics https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...), and citizens still complain. In other words, ironically, countries may as well block entrance to asylum seekers, or throw homeless away out of the borders, and the public opinion will be negative regardless.
      - cookiengineer 6y ago
        I was not talking about refugees in particular, but more in general about people that lost their home; implying that they had a German residence before, or were born in Germany and still have a German passport (aka Personalausweis). Those people that lost their home and would theoretically be willing to work still cannot; hence because they don't have a postal address which is required to get a bank account. Since the new Zahlungskontengesetz was established, all people that have a German citizenship have a right to get a Basiskonto [1] and banks must comply. Though the legal loophole here is that getting a bank account still requires a postal address. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__31.html
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  An EU citizen here. We have a more extensive social net - especially healthcare, true. But our homeless problem is pretty big too. People with addictions, people with cognitive problems, foreigners who do not speak the local language (HUGE obstacle in a borderless union of twenty languages!), people unfamiliar with the welfare regulations (it usually takes some hoops to jump through before you get some money) fall through the cracks in a way uncannily similar to the American one.
glasss 6y ago
Not disputing this at all, but I read some stats recently that the average American household income is so offset by the higher earners that the median income is something like 2 or 3 times less than the average. I imagine this cuts both ways. Do you recall if the language used was median or average?
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  The average is skewed everywhere by the high earners. In Germany if you remove all the millionaires, bankers, executives, industrialists and real estate magnates, you're left with a bunch of underpaid workers (blue and white collar) who will be serfs for life.
  - glasss 6y ago
    I figure this is the case, but with admittedly no stats in front of me I have a suspicion that the skew is worse in the US due a larger population and higher ceiling of the upper class. Regardless, my skew is apparently more off the mark than I recalled as another poster pointed out.
    - Ajef 6y ago
      I have found a source directly comparing US to German middle incomes incase you're interested. Figure 7 of this publication [1] seems to be relevant to this discussion and shows that the median net worth in all groups in Germany is lower. However it compares USD to EUR. Some of the other graphs in the publication showing wealth distribution may also be interesting. [1] https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.533123.de/diw_econ_bull_2016-18.pdf https://www.diw.de/documents/publikationen/73/diw_01.c.53312... EDIT: The publication isn't the newest, being from 2016.
- thunderbird120 6y ago
  Median household income in 2020 was $68,400, average was $97,973.61. That's a difference of ~1.4X which is not nearly as large as you are implying. https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percentiles/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-household-income-percen...
apatters 6y ago
> Americans still have the highest economic mobility in the world. This part stopped being true at some point in the 21st century. The slowly shrinking disconnect between reality and this belief is imo the most powerful political force of our day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_th... https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?sq=mobility&st=cse&scp=1&pagewanted=all https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-t...
- bb123 6y ago
  I think we should call this disconnect what it is - brainwashing. Americans (and those that consume their media) are told from childhood that they are the only country where it is possible to move from the bottom to the top. Outside observers can clearly see that this is not the case, but when presented with hard evidence to the contrary it is simply dismissed as some untruth.
  - d1zzy 6y ago
    While it's not necessary to say "the only country" I think it IS necessary to "brainwash" people by potentially lying to them that it is possible to have economic mobility in order to actually enable it. If most people don't believe that they can have economic mobility then they simply won't even bother. In order to get many people to bother and try you need to convince everyone that it's possible, even if, in practice, few will manage to. It's a first step, a stepping stone. Of course, besides convincing people that it's possible you need to have an economy that makes it possible. So that would be the second step.
yyyymmddhhmmss 6y ago
>highest economic mobility This is just a bold-faced lie. It’s false by every measure. Americans have nowhere close to the highest economic mobility in the world. That hope retired with the baby boomers. >purchasing power Europeans have free healthcare and education. That alone accounts for far more than the difference. So, what are you counting as “purchasing power?” Then there’s all the other minimally functioning public amenities that Europeans have access to.
yaitsyaboi 6y ago
No, America is listed 27th in the world as far as economic mobility, behind most other highly industrialized, democratic countries. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index' As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile, I think this is a very interesting and sad aspect of American life. Especially how it is perceived vs the reality.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >As someone who has gone from the bottom to top quintile Are you in the US? Because only there you have such high mobility. Good luck getting in the top quintile in Europe if you were born in the bottom. That is what real economic mobility looks like. Sure, Europe does better in these statistics, but in the real world, US gives its workers way better odds at getting to the top and that's coming from an European.
  - karpierz 6y ago
    I'm confused, the evidence clearly indicates that in this world, the US has much lower economic mobility than Europe. Which real world are you talking about?
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      What proof is there that the formula used to compile that ranking actually reflects real world economic mobility? Just because statistics say you shouldn't be poor doesn't mean you can't be poor. Just because statistically there is no racism in your area doesn't mean you won't get discriminated and deprived of opportunities. Because the when certain metrics are used to compile a formula that leads to any ranking, then those parameters are subject to gaming in order to meet an expected result so those statistics are meaningless at the end of the day when you can't move past a certain wage/social class due to the artificial barriers set by a feudal leadership. Statistically, the unemployment rate in my country should be about 2% while realistically it's much higher since the government doesn't count certain classes of people in odder to make the numbers look god in statistics for the EU. Anecdotally, my acquaintances who emigrated from the former soviet bloc to North Ameriac and Australia ended up with much more wealth to their name including their own houses vs the ones who moved to Western Europe who basically ended up as serfs to be renters for life. Do you see the problem with statistics as evidence? They don't tell the whole story.
markvdb 6y ago
> Americans still have [...] most importantly, the highest economic mobility in the world. Unfortunately, this is incorrect. If we are to believe the OECD [0], the US have near the lowest economic mobility of any developed country. [0] http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/social-mobility-2018-USA-EN.pdf http://www.oecd.org/unitedstates/social-mobility-2018-USA-EN...
pizza234 6y ago
> The average American earns more than the average European, let alone the average global citizen. Heck, even construction workers in the US make way more than in Germany or Denmark. Is this based on data or a is it a generalized assumption? A short time ago, on HN, there was debate about the exactly opposite argument - that the purchasing power significantly decreased¹. [¹]: The Life in The Simpsons Is No Longer Attainable, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570611 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25570611.
imtringued 6y ago
That's not the right mode of thinking. If you have an idle or underutilized workforce you want to put it to work because you are wasting it's productive output if it does nothing. Worse, it will start revolting if it has nothing better to do.
michaelbrave 6y ago
If I suspend my disbelief and lets say an average American makes more than an average European, is that before expenses or after? Because once we start factoring in rent, healthcare, cost of food or any other cost of living. Then is it of comparable quality? I know as far as healthcare goes it's a far lower standard that costs far more, the level of stress is far higher, the working hours are far longer. So even if they are making more money, I don't feel like it adds to their wealth or their lifestyle, which was kind of the point of making more money isn't it?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

colinmhayes 6y ago

This is likely true long term, but middle class Americans currently have more purchasing power than any other middle class group in the world.