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How is this a coup attempt? A handful of random, largely unarmed citizens can't just take control of the government by storming one building. The federal govern

by umvi 6y ago

How is this a coup attempt? A handful of random, largely unarmed citizens can't just take control of the government by storming one building. The federal government is massive, not to mention all the individual state governments. A coup would have to be led by actual politicians or military leaders in positions of power.

joshuamorton 6y ago
You mean like the outgoing president, who tacitly encouraged this, or the congresspeople who support the "stop the steal" movement? There absolutely are politicians and people in positions of power supporting this. A failed coup it may be, but it need to be successful to have been an attempt.
paxys 6y ago
They literally stopped the certification of Biden's win. What exactly do you call it?
- umvi 6y ago
  Disruptive? If that's the definition of a coup, than this isn't a coup any more than an earthquake or hurricane is a coup.
- EliRivers 6y ago
  Are they now controlling the military? Have they taken control of the media and silenced their critics? Have they rounded up in a sudden sweep all those in government who might oppose them? Are they pushing out prepared messages about how this is being done for the benefit of the people? Have they actually done anything involving taking control and establishing themselves as the legitimate authority, deposing the existing government? If this is a coup, it's the shittest coup ever, being done by the least competent coup conspirators I've ever seen.
  - kadoban 6y ago
    It doesn't stop being a coup attempt just because they suck at it. A stupid criminal is still a criminal.
  - jandrese 6y ago
    One does wonder if there is any kind of endgame strategy here. Are they going to occupy the Capitol building until Jan 20 so they can claim that Biden isn't president because the vote didn't happen? This seems a bit spur of the moment. Also, didn't President Trump say he was going to lead them to the Capitol building in his speech? Where is he?
  - tashoecraft 6y ago
    It's a coup, an uncoordinated, piss poor attempt at a coup, but a coup non the less.
- manfredo 6y ago
  A tantrum. Nobody serious is under any illusion that Biden will not assume the Presidency. In a way, I think this kind of rhetoric empowers these kinds of protests and inspires people into thinking these actions might actually work. In reality, the long term impact of these actions is only going to hurt Republicans. As per The Economist [1], in 2000 the election was decided by only ~600 votes in Florida but still only 36% of Gore supporters felt the election was fraudulent. Only 23% of Clinton voters felt the same in 2016. Yet now, with an election decided by margins an order of magnitude larger than in 2016 and three orders of magnitude larger than in 2000 a staggering 88% of Trump supporters surveyed said they believed the election was fraudulent. This kind of brazen hypocrisy, and now coupled by the actions today, are going to stick with the Republican party for a long time. Most of the Republicans I know are aghast. I'm sure the set of Republicans I talk to are not representative (mostly college educated professionals), and that they'll alter how they communicate with an outwardly liberal person like me (deliberately or instinctively). But I think the Republican party is going to recognize Trump as a catastrophe that is leaving a deep scar in the party. 1. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/21/donald-trumps-refusal-to-concede-is-harming-america https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/21/donald-tr...
  - rorykoehler 6y ago
    Time for not taking them seriously is long past
    - manfredo 6y ago
      I agree we should take them seriously for what they are: a group of agitators that aren't going to actually effect any change. No amount of protest or agitation among these groups is going to alter the outcome of the 2020 election. The main harm they're doing is to the reputation of the Republican party itself. The notion that there is any possibility of overturning the election is counterfactual. Legitimate avenues of disputing the election have been explored and exhausted. Biden is already working with a transition team. All important institutions like the military, judiciary, and others recognize Biden as the 46th President. I agree, we need to take these events seriously. And the ones talking about a coup aren't taking them seriously. The staggeringly high rate of belief in a fraudulent election, and agitators like the ones we're seeing today are very serious indicators in their own right. Resorting to embellishment and hyperbole ultimately diminishes is not being serious.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The event taking place in Congress, which the protesters have successfully stopped, was the formal declaration of a new President. Preventing the peaceful transfer of power is a coup, even if we expect it won't last long.
alistairSH 6y ago
The current POTUS asked them to do this (both during today's rally and previously); it's literally an attempt at a coup.
- umvi 6y ago
  Could you elaborate on what, specifically, POTUS asked the protestors to do that qualifies this as a coup? Protesting alone isn't enough to qualify as a coup in my book, even if some protestors disrupted congress. Every large protest these days has bad actors that break stuff and loot and disrupt (recent BLM ones come to mind).
  - alistairSH 6y ago
    Transcript from today's rally. https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6 https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-sav... At the end, he literally calls for an unruly mob of armed insurrectionists to march down Penn Ave to the Capitol. Sure, he never used the words "break down the doors" or anything like that but what did he think was going to happen? He's been using dog whistles that hint at this for a month and here we are. Particularly given the armed stand-off at the Michigan statehouse earlier this year.
    - umvi 6y ago
      > So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol ... But we’re going to try and give our Republicans ... the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. That's it? No calls to illegally seize power, nothing. Just to march down a road and show support to a subset of politicians in the hope that they do technically legal things that are helpful to his cause. and on Twitter: > I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you! If this really constitutes a "coup", it's the worst, weakest coup I've ever seen.
scarmig 6y ago
Even Republican representatives are calling it a coup attempt. Storming a legislative building to prevent the legitimate succession of power and threatening the physical bodies of legislators is the definition of a coup. Everyone identified and involved in this should be arrested, tried, and if convicted executed.
- kortilla 6y ago
  You are calling for murder, that’s not appropriate on this forum.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    No, applying the maximum penalty allowed by law after going through the proper process isn't "murder." Treason and insurrection are serious matters.
    - ALittleLight 6y ago
      Declaring things "treason and insurrection" and then proceeding to summary execution sounds more like a tyrannical dictatorship than a free Republic. The protesters shouldn't be doing this, but that doesn't mean our police forces should start slaughtering our citizens.
      - Dylan16807 6y ago
        Uh, the comment talks about trials and conviction, not "summary".
        ALittleLight 6y ago
        The parent comment literally says "and why have the attackers not been shot?" It seems like gaslighting to say "Why haven't the protesters been shot" and then pretend like what was meant was "After they've been legally tried and convicted." The punishment for trespassing on the Capitol building is not death. Calling for the police to murder protesters is immoral.
vkou 6y ago
How is a mob storming the legislature at the direction of a politician not a coup attempt?
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > How is a mob storming the legislature at the direction of a politician not a coup attempt? Especially when the specific goal is to use threats of violence to induce officials to overturn the election in which the inciting politician was defeated. This is an act of terrorism meant to effect an auto-coup.
8note 6y ago
An attempt doesn't have to be effective
xnx 6y ago
A poorly organized coup attempt is still a coup attempt. You don't get much sympathy from the judge and jury if your attempted murder is poorly thought out and executed.

by umvi 6y ago

joshuamorton 6y ago

You mean like the outgoing president, who tacitly encouraged this, or the congresspeople who support the "stop the steal" movement? There absolutely are politicians and people in positions of power supporting this. A failed coup it may be, but it need to be successful to have been an attempt.

paxys 6y ago

They literally stopped the certification of Biden's win. What exactly do you call it?

umvi 6y ago
Disruptive? If that's the definition of a coup, than this isn't a coup any more than an earthquake or hurricane is a coup.
EliRivers 6y ago
Are they now controlling the military? Have they taken control of the media and silenced their critics? Have they rounded up in a sudden sweep all those in government who might oppose them? Are they pushing out prepared messages about how this is being done for the benefit of the people? Have they actually done anything involving taking control and establishing themselves as the legitimate authority, deposing the existing government? If this is a coup, it's the shittest coup ever, being done by the least competent coup conspirators I've ever seen.
- kadoban 6y ago
  It doesn't stop being a coup attempt just because they suck at it. A stupid criminal is still a criminal.
- jandrese 6y ago
  One does wonder if there is any kind of endgame strategy here. Are they going to occupy the Capitol building until Jan 20 so they can claim that Biden isn't president because the vote didn't happen? This seems a bit spur of the moment. Also, didn't President Trump say he was going to lead them to the Capitol building in his speech? Where is he?
- tashoecraft 6y ago
  It's a coup, an uncoordinated, piss poor attempt at a coup, but a coup non the less.
manfredo 6y ago
A tantrum. Nobody serious is under any illusion that Biden will not assume the Presidency. In a way, I think this kind of rhetoric empowers these kinds of protests and inspires people into thinking these actions might actually work. In reality, the long term impact of these actions is only going to hurt Republicans. As per The Economist [1], in 2000 the election was decided by only ~600 votes in Florida but still only 36% of Gore supporters felt the election was fraudulent. Only 23% of Clinton voters felt the same in 2016. Yet now, with an election decided by margins an order of magnitude larger than in 2016 and three orders of magnitude larger than in 2000 a staggering 88% of Trump supporters surveyed said they believed the election was fraudulent. This kind of brazen hypocrisy, and now coupled by the actions today, are going to stick with the Republican party for a long time. Most of the Republicans I know are aghast. I'm sure the set of Republicans I talk to are not representative (mostly college educated professionals), and that they'll alter how they communicate with an outwardly liberal person like me (deliberately or instinctively). But I think the Republican party is going to recognize Trump as a catastrophe that is leaving a deep scar in the party. 1. https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/21/donald-trumps-refusal-to-concede-is-harming-america https://www.economist.com/united-states/2020/11/21/donald-tr...
- rorykoehler 6y ago
  Time for not taking them seriously is long past
  - manfredo 6y ago
    I agree we should take them seriously for what they are: a group of agitators that aren't going to actually effect any change. No amount of protest or agitation among these groups is going to alter the outcome of the 2020 election. The main harm they're doing is to the reputation of the Republican party itself. The notion that there is any possibility of overturning the election is counterfactual. Legitimate avenues of disputing the election have been explored and exhausted. Biden is already working with a transition team. All important institutions like the military, judiciary, and others recognize Biden as the 46th President. I agree, we need to take these events seriously. And the ones talking about a coup aren't taking them seriously. The staggeringly high rate of belief in a fraudulent election, and agitators like the ones we're seeing today are very serious indicators in their own right. Resorting to embellishment and hyperbole ultimately diminishes is not being serious.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

The event taking place in Congress, which the protesters have successfully stopped, was the formal declaration of a new President. Preventing the peaceful transfer of power is a coup, even if we expect it won't last long.

alistairSH 6y ago

The current POTUS asked them to do this (both during today's rally and previously); it's literally an attempt at a coup.

umvi 6y ago
Could you elaborate on what, specifically, POTUS asked the protestors to do that qualifies this as a coup? Protesting alone isn't enough to qualify as a coup in my book, even if some protestors disrupted congress. Every large protest these days has bad actors that break stuff and loot and disrupt (recent BLM ones come to mind).
- alistairSH 6y ago
  Transcript from today's rally. https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6 https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-sav... At the end, he literally calls for an unruly mob of armed insurrectionists to march down Penn Ave to the Capitol. Sure, he never used the words "break down the doors" or anything like that but what did he think was going to happen? He's been using dog whistles that hint at this for a month and here we are. Particularly given the armed stand-off at the Michigan statehouse earlier this year.
  - umvi 6y ago
    > So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol ... But we’re going to try and give our Republicans ... the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. That's it? No calls to illegally seize power, nothing. Just to march down a road and show support to a subset of politicians in the hope that they do technically legal things that are helpful to his cause. and on Twitter: > I am asking for everyone at the U.S. Capitol to remain peaceful. No violence! Remember, WE are the Party of Law & Order – respect the Law and our great men and women in Blue. Thank you! If this really constitutes a "coup", it's the worst, weakest coup I've ever seen.

scarmig 6y ago

Even Republican representatives are calling it a coup attempt. Storming a legislative building to prevent the legitimate succession of power and threatening the physical bodies of legislators is the definition of a coup. Everyone identified and involved in this should be arrested, tried, and if convicted executed.

kortilla 6y ago
You are calling for murder, that’s not appropriate on this forum.
- scarmig 6y ago
  No, applying the maximum penalty allowed by law after going through the proper process isn't "murder." Treason and insurrection are serious matters.
  - ALittleLight 6y ago
    Declaring things "treason and insurrection" and then proceeding to summary execution sounds more like a tyrannical dictatorship than a free Republic. The protesters shouldn't be doing this, but that doesn't mean our police forces should start slaughtering our citizens.
    - Dylan16807 6y ago
      Uh, the comment talks about trials and conviction, not "summary".
      - ALittleLight 6y ago
        The parent comment literally says "and why have the attackers not been shot?" It seems like gaslighting to say "Why haven't the protesters been shot" and then pretend like what was meant was "After they've been legally tried and convicted." The punishment for trespassing on the Capitol building is not death. Calling for the police to murder protesters is immoral.

vkou 6y ago

How is a mob storming the legislature at the direction of a politician not a coup attempt?

dragonwriter 6y ago
> How is a mob storming the legislature at the direction of a politician not a coup attempt? Especially when the specific goal is to use threats of violence to induce officials to overturn the election in which the inciting politician was defeated. This is an act of terrorism meant to effect an auto-coup.

8note 6y ago

An attempt doesn't have to be effective

xnx 6y ago

A poorly organized coup attempt is still a coup attempt. You don't get much sympathy from the judge and jury if your attempted murder is poorly thought out and executed.