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Trump bans Alipay and seven other Chinese apps
- didgeoridoo 6y agoCan anyone explain how CamScanner fits into all this? I thought it was just a scanning app — can you send money with it?
- willcipriano 6y agoLooks like India banned it as well. https://www.india.com/viral/it-has-been-banned-delhi-judge-objects-to-use-of-chinese-app-camscanner-by-lawyer-asks-him-not-to-use-it-in-future-4122413/ https://www.india.com/viral/it-has-been-banned-delhi-judge-o...
- uppsalax 6y agoThe article says that the "majority of app were payment platforms". I would interpret it with the quote of Trump: "by accessing personal electronic devices such as smartphones, tablets, and computers, Chinese connected software applications can access and capture vast swaths of information from users, including sensitive personally identifiable information and private information." I think with the idea of "camera scanning" they will require authorization and they will capture sensible informations of US citizens. I think that's the idea behind this kind of ban...
- narcissismo 6y agoWait - "Chinese software applications can access and capture vast swaths of information from users, including sensitive personally identifiable information and private information" Doing this is now a bad thing? I thought it was the fundamental idea behind the tech industry.
- iKevinShah 6y ago> I thought it was the fundamental idea behind the tech industry. It is. But it seems that lately governments in their own silos are thinking I can do it, you cant. PS: Not saying in any way to allow capture of vast swaths of information to anyone :)
- the_other 6y agoIt is (sadly) but also it depends where that data goes. From the US government perspective: - data goes to US corporations == fine - data goes to CCP == not fine
- AnonymousPlanet 6y agoFollowing the very same logic, the EU could and should completely ban the sale of Windows 10.
- Multicomp 6y agoi used to have this app. like many it sold for a single price initially, then later someone else bought the rights to it and it wanted a subscription and became loaded with trackers. So I think its the trackers part that makes it bannable.
- higerordermap 6y agoIt had a trojan. It is beyond me why anyone would trust an app owned by Tencent and has intrusive ads, whereas the alternatives for most people (Adobe / MS) offerings are free. America somehow seems to have this political correctness complex. There is nothing wrong being weary of such things.
- Spivak 6y agoBeing wary in part or in full because an app or is owned, operated, or developed in China is where you run into issues. Being wary because you find Tencent specifically untrustworthy is fine.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- MajorBee 6y agoIn this specific CamScanner context, I think it has less to do with political correctness and more to do with the fact that CamScanner was one of the first apps in the marketplace that had this ability to produce half-decent scans through a smartphone camera. I remember using it to scan class notes ~6 years ago, long before Google Drive shipped it as native capability. Indeed, if my social circle's "woke" parts are anything to measure by, active efforts are being made to find alternatives to made-in-china products. Most people are able to make the distinction between the despotic Chinese government and the average Chinese citizen.
- runawaybottle 6y agoTrump is not educated enough on these matters to take the initiative. The intelligence apparatus is pushing for these, and will continue to do so with the Biden administration. I can’t envision this Cold War ratcheting down. On the surface, Biden will wipe the slate clean on the trade war stuff, but the tit for tat stuff like this will accelerate. I don’t know what the end result of it will be, but the movement on this front is almost like day trading for defense departments, there’s enough bullshit here to justify entire agencies and budgets (as in, Palantir is going to find some crap here to monetize). Prediction - at least a few provisions in the near term stimulus bills, green deals, that will include funding for China containment policy. Biden has been clear he doesn’t want China setting preconditions for companies (the precondition being we get to copy your IP), and the second bullying sovereign nations economically in it’s sphere of influence. I just don’t know what this will actually look like, but Biden/Obama had way more of a master plan policy than Trump ever did for dealing with China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of_the_Barack_Obama_administration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Asian_foreign_policy_of...
- jokethrowaway 6y agoWith Europe and a Biden presidency being pro-China, I have serious doubts the western world will be able to face the Chinese century, and I doubt they will contain China anyhow. I'm sure that as China gets even richer and starts polluting less, politicians will take pride in that, as if they did anything.
- refurb 6y agoAgreed. Look at Australia. Struggling like a worm on a hook against China blocking their imports. How Australia goes is how the rest of the world goes.
- philliphaydon 6y agoI can't tell if your comment is joking or not?
- hmate9 6y agoYou can bet Beijing will retaliate and ban even more US companies.
- WanderPanda 6y agoAre there any left unbanned?
- lima 6y agoThere's plenty of US companies operating in China.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoBut only under Chinese law, which means they have to be founded and led by a Chinese national, and the Party has to be involved. That's before conforming to their censorship and social credit policies comes in.
- lotsofpulp 6y agoI wonder how ownership of the Apple stores in China works.
- bildung 6y agoThis is wrong, the most common type of foreign investment uses "Wholly foreign-owned enterprises" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_foreign-owned_enterprise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wholly_foreign-owned_enterpris...
- xiphias2 6y agoTesla is the most interesting one. Elon was so happy about it, but I'm sure it will come back to him in time. Still, it was worth it even if China steals all of Tesla's IP.
- WanderPanda 6y ago
- aleister_777 6y agoTrump can do all he wants, but empirical data shows that folks just ignore him without consequences so these apps won't be banned any longer than Tiktok was shut down or Chinese companies were delisted from the NYSE. That doesn't mean he is wrong and China hasn't infiltrated America at every level, but it's a lost battle now that America will be rolling out the red carpet for the CCP.
- gregorygoc 6y ago> America will be rolling out the red carpet for the CCP. Why so?
- k_sze 6y agoThe grand-parent comment is problematic for anybody who has read enough Chomsky and remembered the lessons. One needs to define “America” for that comment to be meaningful. Or rather, one should recognize that there is not one “America”. We need to think in terms of classes: the 1%, the other 9%, and the rest. Or even more drastically: the 0.1% and the rest.
- jariel 6y agoBanning these apps was rational, much more so than TikTok. Financial services have always been protected industries, in every country, combined with the close association with BoC and political oversight it's a huge red flag. Importantly, it's worth noting that Trump has no idea what these apps are or what they do, this is not 'his initiative' clearly, it's from the team. The Dems and Republicans are mostly in sync on China. These bans are of a different kind that TikTok. Biden may use the opportunity to try to 'reset' and the rhetoric will be softer, but I suggest these bans will remain in place. This isn't really Trump populism, this is 'the apparatus' engaging in actual policy.
- hmate9 6y agoThese bans also seem kind of weird after the TikTok ban. They were supposed to find a US buyer or leave the US market. They’ve done neither and are still live.
- zpeti 6y agoBecause despite so many people claiming Trump will create a dictatorship, it turns out US courts do actually have power, and the seperation of powers does actually work. The president isn't the be all and end all power in the USA, as some people would like to think.
- papito 6y agoTrump alone, maybe not. He doesn't want to do the hard work that goes into becoming a dictator. Dictators come to power very often through legitimate means and deft political work. It's not like all dictatorships come to life through violent means. It's not the case. It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Also, if the GOP controlled both chambers of Congress, the odds that Joe Biden would be sworn in on the 21st would be very slim. There is your dictatorship. You might say that we would essentially become a parliamentary system, but I don't think that's what we were GOING for.
- gambiting 6y ago>>It's going back to a democracy that HAS to be violent. Uhm, you might be unaware, but Poland has gotten rid of communism and replaced the ruling communist party through both peaceful protests and democratic elections. I see these comments all the time ("all uprisings have to be violent") but that's just provably not true.
- wGeF7H8Z59y985y 6y agoThis only worked for Poland because their communist masters (the Soviets) simply disappeared overnight for reasons of their own. It’s not as if Poland itself had some intrinsic desire for communism and then changed its mind.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago> The order, which takes effect in 45 days ... US democracy can be seriously threatened by an administration incapable of using a calendar, apparently.
- VBprogrammer 6y agoThe cynical part of me says this is a political stunt to make the Biden administration cancel this order making them "weak on China".
- splintercell 6y agoObama administration did some ridiculous environmental regulations this way which Trump rolled back and looked bad.
- papito 6y agoWhich ones? https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/02/climate/environmental-rules-reversed-trump-100-days.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/05/02/climate/envir...
- stronglikedan 6y agoUsually people are referring to the Paris Climate Agreement in this context.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 6y agoIt could actually work in their favor. Tag the old admin with being unreasonable, but still get some, albeit minor, concession.
- bovermyer 6y agoThis is an often-used tactic. First-term outgoing executive declares a bunch of policies last-minute that his supporters love, incoming executive cancels all of them. Since the policies were untested, they became symbolic rather than a demonstrably failed experiment. When the first executive tries for a second term later, they can use this as an example of how they tried to do X, but their replacement didn't even give them a chance. I've seen this exact thing done many, many times, and not just in the American presidency.
- sthnblllII 6y agoWall Street is very concerned that the next occupy wall street will circumvent their payment processor blacklists and surveillance by using Chinese competitors that aren't controlled by US financial interests.
- LatteLazy 6y agoWhy would Occupy Wallstreet 2.0 need payment processors? The big advantage (and weakness) of those movements was that they were decentralised and had no leader (or treasurer)
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y agoWhich was also among their biggest disadvantages as they had no coherent messaging.
- LatteLazy 6y agoDefinately. Personal anecdote: I worked in finance back then at London Stock Exchange. The building we were in was next to St Paul's Cathedral, where Occupy London were setup. They were nice guys and girls, I went out to talk to them occasionally and bought them donuts and stuff. When I asked what they wanted, they couldn't tell me. I think I knew the movement was dead at that point. If you have no "demands" and what are people meant to do for you? Even brexiteers with their self contradictory demands managed to get something done. I think occupy was more like Woodstock (an event or experience) than a "movement" in the end...
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoThat's not really necessary as long as they have a coherent message. Occupy had that, BLM has it, Antifa does, and none of these organizations are formally structured ones, they have no leaders, no HQ, etc. They are groups organized via common goals. I mean I'm sure they have some ring leaders, the people that organize the protests and do a lot of the leg work, and I'm sure they're on the Lists of the various agencies, but it's not like Trump can get on stage and do his "we got 'em" moment announcing they captured the leader of antifa.
- papito 6y agoAfter American intel officially claims it was Russia behind the SolarWinds hack, Trump lashes out at China. "Lookit here!". Coincidence? Hey, I am just asking questions.
- xienze 6y agoYou may not realize this, but China is also a serious threat to the US in multiple ways, cyber security included.
- kenniskrag 6y agoA teen in a pyjama is nowdays a serious cyber security threat.
- Cthulhu_ 6y agoAnd the serious cyber threats are just distractions and boogeymen from what's going on in plain sight.
- AnonymousPlanet 6y agoSo when American companies invade the privacy of European citizens its okay, but when Chinese companies do the same with American citizens this is "digital totalitarianism"? Anyone care to explain this to me?
- tsujp 6y agoAmerica's foreign policy (as a government as evidenced through history and present-day) is to police and/or spy on the world but not to be policed and/or spied on.
- secondcoming 6y agoThat's not just America's foreign policy though. Even Denmark has an espionage unit.
- tsujp 6y agoI'd assume everyone does; the person I am replying to asked for someone to explain it to them so I have.
- meepmorp 6y agoEveryone wants to spy, nobody wants to be spied on. It's a typical part of what we call international power politics and it's been going on for roughly all of human history. I honestly don't understand the point you're tying to make. Are you just complaining that it's unfair?
- sneak 6y agoIf America wants to claim some sort of moral superiority in this stupid pissing match, it becomes quite difficult to do so when engaging in the same kind of bullshit state censorship that other countries routinely engage in. Oh well. Maybe this will accelerate the move toward app platforms that can't be so easily censored arbitrarily by the state.
- MrBuddyCasino 6y agoAfter decades of exporting (and/or stealing) western IP and most of our manufacturing base to China, at the expense of the working class and to the benefit of capitalists, Trump was first to stop the bleeding. He wasn't particularly smart about it, and he should have built alliances, yet he went alone as usual. With all major western internet platforms being already banned in China, Jack Ma having disappeared for weeks now after being critical of the CCP, there are still comments here why everyone can't be nice to each other, and what harm were those Chinese apps causing. The opioid crisis has so far killed more Americans than WW2, and at least some of it is caused by the evaporation of blue-collar jobs. This is a direct consequence of certain economic policies. Say what you will about the CCP, but at least it cares about its people - because they are doing the polar opposite.
- villgax 6y agoFacebook/Google does the same thing just owned by different govt. WHo's to say what happens to a Russian/Indian/Sri-Lankan app that poses some arbitrary threat any different.
- mtw 6y agoI don't understand why Russia is doing obviously hostile acts (elections, hacking government agencies, invasion of Ukraine & others, covert operations and so on...) against the US, and not much is done. Meanwhile, I can't remember a covert operation done by China or a visible invasion of a third-party country (except putting concrete on a few inhabited islands) and then everything is done to portray them as the bad guys and ban entire industries I can't help thinking of either racism, or politicians being controlled by Russian intelligence (possibly them not being unaware of this)
- kevingadd 6y agoChina is currently the conservative foe of choice and Russia the ally of choice. We'll likely see this flip now that centrists are taking power since they were all-in on Russia as a foe over the past few years. Russian intelligence doesn't necessarily have to be a part of the picture, though we've certainly had cases of politicians taking foreign money. It's hard to say how much of it is motivated by racism, though it's certainly a part of it. When pols call COVID-19 "the China virus" and talk about making them pay for it there's obviously a grudge there.
- echelon 6y ago> When pols call COVID-19 "the China virus" and talk about making them pay for it there's obviously a grudge there. Are you sure that's ethnically rooted, or that they're trying to describe the CCP and simply chose the wrong title? A number of people calling it the "China virus" redubbed it the "CCP virus". You can be angry at Chinese leadership while empathizing and supporting its people.
- trianglem 6y agoRussia is by no means an ally. Not politically, economically or diplomatically. What are you talking about?
- ilstormcloud 6y agoIt does seem Russia is seen as a potential partner in "containing" China.
- someperson 6y agoI'm surprised no action was taken against WPS Office until now. I'm surprised AirDroid wasn't on this list though. It gives the government of China full remote access to millions of Android devices, including many in sensitive corporate environments.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago> AirDroid What? Thanks for mentioning that. I've been using it for years (albeit in LAN-only mode, I don't like clouds). Need to re-evaluate it now (not that I trust China's gov particularly less than US gov at this point, but I prefer apps that don't give any governments obvious remote access capability). Do you know of any good alternatives for hassle-free WiFi file transfer?
- someperson 6y agoI don't know if it's "hassle-free" but adb over Wi-Fi has worked well in my experiences. I tend to use adb over USB for file transfer. Both use command-line utilities so not suitable for all end-users.
- TeMPOraL 6y agoI'll try that, though it's not perfect for me. I'm fine with CLI, but my use case for AirDroid is usually dropping some photos from my phone into someone else's computer, while we're on the same network. Come to think of it, maybe I could just spin up a HTTP server on the phone with Termux, and serve the DCIM directory. And then wrap it into a homescreen icon via Tasker.
- russli1993 6y agoWith all this talk about China threating US national security. US actions is actively causing damages in china. Sanctions on Huawei for example is already resulting Huawei unable to build smartphones and other products. There are layoffs at huawei, all kind of suppliers, even sales people at huawei stores. If you count all the people related by Huawei's activities, its millions. Normal people, regular folks, who just want to earn a living to support their families. Now all of sudden out of jobs during an pandemic year because of political action by US government. They may have bills and mortgages to pay, kids to feed. Real people are suffering because of the actions of US gov. Chinese people's security is actually being damaged here. And where do these people go to protest for their rights and fight for what were theirs?
- ct0 6y agoAre these the actions of the US Government or the response to China made by the US gov? China doesn't care about their own people rights, unfortunately.
- luma 6y agoIt feels like your argument here is that any company that employees people should be allowed to do anything, because stopping them from doing something would negatively impact their employees.
- dgb23 6y agoThe bigger point is that people with power don't feel the consequences. The victims are almost always the workers. Free trade and competition? As long as it suits the powerful. Democracy and sovereignty? Only if they play nicely with our big players. Human rights? If your economic interests align with ours. It doesn't need to be like this.
- capableweb 6y agoWhile you and me agree it's shitty of the US government to not consider all humans on this planet, this is hardly the first nor the last time the US government is actively trying make things worse for others. In fact, large parts of the US geopolitical strategy is just that, screw with others in order to try and save itself.
- izacus 6y agoHuh, why is WPS Office included here? Last I've seen it, it was a pretty good mobile/desktop office suite alterantive.
- someperson 6y agoWhy can't the App Store and Google Play add country-of-origin labeling for applications? I'm against the US banning apps, but having a clear warning message detailing the risks around downloading apps Made in China (eg, history of widespread Chinese government-sanctioned economic espionage) seems reasonable and appropriate.
- throwaway4good 6y agoSo what would it say for TikTok?
- someperson 6y ago"This app is developed in Beijing, China by ByteDance" Then clicking the info button could then say "Data on this platform is typically hosted on servers based in the United States but may be accessed by ByteDance engineers and governmental authorities based in China. Always be careful what you share." I think such country-of-origin disclaimers should apply to all apps (including Facebook, GMail, YouTube etc). We have country-of-origin labeling for all other goods and services. Clear labeling helps put the onus on the user to determine if using such an application is a risk they're willing to take.
- throwaway4good 6y agoBut that is not true at least if you ask TikTok. Do you want Apple or another authority to write this?
- someperson 6y agoJust like Lumen database, the EFF could do it. ByteDance claims their a Cayman Islands company. But their engineers are based in China. The text would be computer generated based on a database: "This app is developed in $locations by $company. Data on this platform is typically hosted in $data_center_location but may be accessed by $company engineers and $country_specific_dangers." For a remote-first company like GitLab, I would have the following text: "This app is developed by a team of remote engineers in various countries by GitLab Inc. Data on this platform is typically hosted in geographically nearby data centers (typically Singapore, South Korea), but may be accessed by GitLab engineers, and the governments of the nations in which these engineers live" There's only 195 countries on Earth, and maybe 1,000 popular applications. A single individual could build such a database and open-source it. It's not a big task at all and brings much more transparency to end-users.
- swiley 6y agoThe problem isn't Chinese software, it's the smartphone model that makes consumers extremely susceptible to vendor lock-in and network effects for even trivial things like sharing files.
- stuckindider 6y ago>Ambar, an influencer, say she has seen inappropriate content on TikTok Hahahaha what is this??
- jdalgetty 6y agoPretty disappointed about WPS Office. I find it's quite good running on Ubuntu.
- publicola1990 6y agoThe issue again is that seems an opaque action based on vague "national security" grounds. It certainly behoves the executive to demonstrate justification for actions before they are done. The proper thing would be to define due transparent process for determining legality of apps/services and subject all apps to the same set of rules. Executive in general shout not be acting like a dictatorship.
- chad_strategic 6y agoI can't remember is Facebook and Twitter allowed in China?
- NationalPark 6y agoDoes China's behavior set the standard you hold your own country to, or do you think we can do better?
- asiando 6y agoNo, like toddlers we just need to match and retaliate.
- chad_strategic 6y agoFor the most part I believe countries act in their our economic interest. If its banning products or services, spying or starting wars. I don't really draw this out to an ethical debate... But if the everybody is playing dirty (Americans, Europeans, Chinese, etc) What do the country gain by following the rules? Maybe I'm cynical, but I really don't think any country is capable of up holding up the standards. (Even the Israelis spy on the Americans and "we" are supposed to be best friends) All countries distribute humanitarian assistance, but we all know that increase influence.s
- caminocorner 6y agoHow do you suggest the US can do better, if they've let China continue this asymmetric behavior for nearly two decades? If China hasn't been participating in free trade fairly, do you think the US should continue letting that happen for another two decades?
- insert_coin 6y agoBe honest. Make a law that announces everyone in the world who can and cannot do business in the US and what's expected of them, and then follow it. Do not ban arbitrary companies for whims and which hunts and vendettas even tho they are complying with all the same rules as the rest.
- hoppla 6y agoSo, they must buy it from information brokers like everyone else?
- contingencies 6y agoThis is a bad move by the US. In the short term it creates political impact, but in the long term it merely cements a multilateral world as we all have to implement multiple payment systems to reach disparate markets. The key beneficiary of that is China. With Alibaba now getting squashed by both the Chinese and US governments, I guess Bezos will think twice before stepping in to consumer payments.
- suyash 6y agoIt's a good move, try using any of the US payment providers in China, forget app based services, can't even take money out of ATM there with Visa debit card
- newdude116 6y agoI am not sure about WeChat pay, yes, there might be security issues. On the other hand, China is blocking a lot of western apps. From play store, facebook, gmail, whatsapp to tinder. And there are indeed cases you ask yourself what might be the real motivation of the owner: https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/06/grindr-sold-china-national-security/?guccounter=1 https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/06/grindr-sold-china-national...
- hertzrat 6y ago> President Trump's order says "by accessing personal electronic devices such as smartphones, tablets, and computers, <I removed a word> connected software applications can access and capture vast swaths of information from users, including sensitive personally identifiable information and private information.