11 ms·

The parenting style that creates leaders

153 points by adrian_mrd 6y ago

struct 6y ago
It’s interesting that the kids with helicopter parents had reduced confidence, and reduced perception of their own skills - confidence does seem to be a necessary (but not sufficient) thing for leadership.
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  Yes - interesting and important. Dweck's "Mindset" (Growth, vs Fixed) speaks to this, as does "Free-Range Parenting".
hirundo 6y ago
So much focus on developing the confidence and skills necessary to be a good leader. So little on developing the substance, breadth, and judgement necessary to lead to a place worth going. It would be nice if leadership skills and confidence correlated with wisdom and capability. But if they do it seems to be weak. Which makes people worth following that can lead so rare.
- credit_guy 6y ago
  I can't upvote this more. Leadership comes from confidence, confidence comes from expertise, expertise comes from learning and practice. Confidence without expertise is hollow; leadership with hollow confidence and no expertise is quite dubious. A certain guy who likes to golf comes to mind.
  - lumberingjack 6y ago
    Obama and Biden I was thinking the same things they golf so freaking much
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    I assume you’re talking about this guy? https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/AP110618021437.jpg https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/AP11061802... Edit: Lol. I love the downvotes. I mean, who are you talking about? Tiger Woods? Jack Nicklaus? Or were you dragging politics into this just to make a cheap shot? If so, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
    - arolihas 6y ago
      Trump has played 308 rounds of golf since becoming president in 2017. Obama in his 8 years in office had played 333.
      - lumberingjack 6y ago
        One of them owns several places where you can golf the other one is married to a man
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - MobileVet 6y ago
        Easy now... let’s not bring facts into this discussion.
        arolihas 6y ago
        My bad, I should be more careful around trump supporters, I know they’re allergic to facts.
      - bjourne 6y ago
        Interestingly, in Trump's book How to get Rich he recommends taking up golf as a means to becoming successful.
        Retric 6y ago
        It seems a stretch to assume he actually wrote any of the books with his name on the cover. Ghostwriters are cheap, and writing takes time. That’s not a dig, it just seems like a poor ROI.
  - bzb6 6y ago
    You can make a point like this without getting politics involved because it inevitably cheapens the discussion.
    - madbkarim 6y ago
      How’s that comment is political?
  - lordnacho 6y ago
    If you look at schools, especially elite ones, there's a strange desire for all the kids to become leaders. Nobody questions it, I don't know why. I guess the school thinks it's useful to be associated with some future leaders? The thing is leadership ought to be like you say. Some kind of competence that allows you to help a group of people complete some kind of task. But let's be honest. The kids want to be student council president because it's prestigious. They grow up and then they want to be CEO because it's prestigious and well paying. They pay lip service to the idea of helping a team, but really, we know they don't care all that much. It's ass backwards, people want to be leaders because {prize} and then they think about how to get there. Sometimes we get lucky and they conclude that they need to climb the ladder by being competent (this fails a lot due to pyramid structures and politics), but often they just figure out that to seem competent, you have to shout a lot about how competent you are.
    - dpeck 6y ago
      Schools, especially elite ones, often see their purpose as creating/fostering leaders out of the pool of potential that they’ve curated.
    - poulsbohemian 6y ago
      > If you look at schools, especially elite ones, there's a strange desire for all the kids to become leaders. Those schools maintain their status and position by ensuring their alumni become leaders. Thus it is to their advantage. Which brings us to the bigger picture... we live in a Darwinian word of evolve-or-die, strongest-will-survive. Thus passing on to our children the skills of leadership are part of this same desire for our children to thrive.
      - technothrasher 6y ago
        That sounds more like a Lamarckian metaphor than Darwinian one.
    - hrktb 6y ago
      > Nobody questions it, I don't know why. Money. In our society it pays more in average to be a leader. On the why it pays more, I’d posit leaders are closer to the money source so get more negotiating power as they have more information.
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    Also empathy and altruism. You have to care about how everyone is doing and how the whole group feels.
- clairity 6y ago
  we make this kind of mistake all the time. it's the basis of the "you get what you measure" aphorism. confidence and charisma are secondary signals, loosely correlated with wisdom and capability. once we emphasize confidence and charisma over wisdom and capability in our leader-choosing algorithm (how political contests have evolved, for instance), we're pressuring the system to weaken that correlation even further, as it's very hard (likely impossible) to maximize all desirable characteristics at the same time. we can see this with popularity itself, which has changed over the past century in the (american) culture from emphasizing capability to emphasizing confidence (with the concomitant rise of mass media and the concentration of mass attention and esteem).
- ericnolte 6y ago
  Skills associated with great leadership have many applications outside of leadership itself. Traits such as high empathy, confidence, creativity, flexibility make great leaders, but also just generally make great people. It would be no surprise the two are correlated!
  - dnautics 6y ago
    Honestly as a follower those are commonly praised, but bad signals. You want a leader who is loyal to you and materially and socially supportive of you above almost all else. It's such a mind fuck to work for someone who is empathetic but doesn't stand up for you, or even undermines what you are doing (whether or not deliberately). You can wind up sinking years of your life by being stuck in that situation without even seeing it
    - HarryHirsch 6y ago
      We'd do well if we all lived by the immortal words of Arthur Seaton: "There's no peace between worker and management, only a truce over paychecks."
      - dnautics 6y ago
        Paychecks are the "almost all else" in my assertion, yes. But I think it's wrong to assume that jobs can't or shouldn't provide value beyond remuneration.
- qzw 6y ago
  This is very astute. Some of history’s “best” leaders have been humanity’s greatest villains.
  - api 6y ago
    Confidence is usually confused with competence, and charisma with vision and direction. I've seen this enough that I've come to believe it's hard wired to some extent, though it can be overridden rationally. Confidence and charisma seems to tell our so-called "reptile brain" that this is a big alpha that should be followed, and I strongly suspect that the effect also tends to down-regulate the rational mind in the same way that stress and fear do. I've experienced the "if they're in the room you agree with them" type of charisma more than once, and personally I always found it creepy and disturbing. Looking past superficial confidence and charisma is something that should be explicitly taught.
- derefr 6y ago
  > It would be nice if leadership skills and confidence correlated with wisdom and capability. Why? That only seems like it would be nice in a world where leadership skills and confidence are rare, and thus it's a "seller's market" for people with those skills, where people might have to settle for just picking a leader because they are good at leadership, regardless of whether they are wise. (Which is, admittedly, the world we live in now.) However, in a world/cultural zeitgeist where leadership and confidence are commonly-cultivated attributes (like conscientiousness is in today's world: something inculcated by parents, teachers, media, etc.), most people would have that attribute, making most people potential leaders — and thus there would be a "buyer's market" for leaders. Leadership ability could be taken as pure table-stakes, and leaders would be selected first-and-foremost on their wisdom/capability/etc. It is exactly the focus of the article, taken forward, that would make such a world come to pass.
  - feoren 6y ago
    What about a world where we all agreed to fight against our natural tendency to follow the guy who shouts the loudest and instead pick leaders who have the traits we want, like wisdom and capability? Then we don't need to bother trying to teach a bunch of naturally shy, intelligent people to shout at each other more.
    - TheAceOfHearts 6y ago
      What about a world where we're not compelled to follow anyone just because another segment of the population thinks it's correct?
    - notriddle 6y ago
      Do you know how to measure that?
- amelius 6y ago
  Yes. There is too little data to claim or even suggest that there exists a "recipe" for creating good leaders. Better to read some biographies of great leaders so at least you have a good view of the original data. Here is one for starters: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/05/those-who-have-known-angela-merkel-describe-her-rise-to-prominence/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/05/those-who-hav...
  - veddox 6y ago
    > There is too little data to claim or even suggest that there exists a "recipe" for creating good leaders. We‘ve been studying leadership since the very first books were written (and probably since the first tribal elders started sharing their experiences around the camp fire). It is important to keep in mind that effective leadership can be stunningly diverse and depends heavily on personality and context. Stanley McChrystal makes this point quite well. Nonetheless, there are certain characteristics and traits that many effective leaders exhibit in some way or another. (IMO, John Maxwell provides an excellent summary of these.) But I heartily agree with your sentiment that reading biographies of leaders is one of the best ways of „learning the trade“ (aside from actually, you know, leading).
- jgalt212 6y ago
  > developing the substance, breadth, and judgement A leader cannot have one without the other. If you've spend any time amongst high academic performers, many of these folks have "developing the substance, breadth, and judgement", but not nearly as many have the confidence to apply these skills as leaders.
- aksss 6y ago
  Impatience for indecisiveness, courage to move forward with uncertainty, a focus on goals, vision of the goal, an ability to identify and overcome obstacles, the ability to cultivate and grow effective lieutenants. These are also some attributes of leadership that seem to me more a product of personality, and while you can learn to hone them, changing one’s personality isn’t that common or easy, IME.
- marmaduke 6y ago
  The focus is perhaps in proportion to how children are. You can make them confident by making their wishes come true (“I want a piece of candy”, ok here you go); developing substance and judgement is a profound Socratic experience that gives every would be parent figure a run for their money (or, well, children) All to say your comment is spot-on.
- znpy 6y ago
  In fairness, the title says "leaders", not "good leaders".
the_snooze 6y ago
>You’ve probably noticed how some of your colleagues take to leadership roles like a duck to water. They’re confident telling others what to do, and happy taking on an ever-growing number of responsibilities. It couldn’t be more different for others: bossing around people feels awkward, and a nagging self-doubt shadows every decision. Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around?" A healthier and more productive view of it is giving people what they need to grow and be successful. It's when a person guides someone and serves as a good steward for them, not exploiting them to whatever ends are at hand.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around? I guess this is because it dovetails with common experience. A leader these days doesn't have to have subject knowledge, he has connections and charisma and knows where to find experts that work for him. Just look at Elon Musk.
  - btilly 6y ago
    I could believe the general thesis, but Elon Musk is just about the worst example that you could have picked. One of his outstanding characteristics is that he is constantly learning subject knowledge. Yes, he hires subject experts, but then he effectively arranges for private tutoring until he knows what he needs of what they know. Elon is a big believer that he should be able to do any job of anyone who he employs, and to a shocking extent it is actually true.
    - perilunar 6y ago
      Also he is severely lacking in charisma.
- jerf 6y ago
  "Why is the popular conception of leadership 'bossing people around?'" That's a good question I've been pondering for a while and still don't have a great answer for. I think some of it is that one degenerate form of leadership is to conflate it with authority, and a lot of people's experience with "leadership" is simply to receive orders. I actually would call what you describe as the ideal form of management, which is not leadership either. An ideal manager is not simply an authority user/abuser, but someone who clears obstacles out of the way and works to enhance the ones they are managing's skills, but ideally, only a bit of authority is deployed, and a manager may in fact exhibit no leadership at all. (For instance, corporate goals may simply come from higher up, or market pressures, or things other than "leadership" per se.) (There are also degenerate cases where raw, naked authority is in fact necessary and extensively used; I'm sure a lot of us worked a job at McDonalds or some rough equivalent and have memories of how much it was based on authority... fewer of us have experiences of managing in that environment and being directly exposed to the fact that it is just the only way to make it work, however distasteful you may find that fact.) For me, leadership should be reserved for the cases in which one is visibly leading, e.g., you start a new initiative somewhere, gather up people to voluntarily follow you by a variety of non-coercive means, and then hold the group together in a variety of very context-sensitive means. True leadership is rare. Authority is inescapable, good management is a gem to be treasured but still not that rare, but leadership is a rare thing. Most groups are held together by other bonds.
itronitron 6y ago
>> The research relies on teenagers retrospectively recalling their parents’ behaviour Seems likely that students that want to be perceived as having 'leadership potential' are going to understate their parents' involvement in their K-12 education. They are just practicing their origin story.
- xixixao 6y ago
  Every article like this should mention that observation can only show correlation, but cannot prove causation. I personally do believe causation is more likely here, but I cannot be sure based on the study.
  - analog31 6y ago
    In addition, simply knowing that there's a causal relationship doesn't identify the cause. For instance you could discover that a sick person traveling to a distant town caused the people in that town to become sick, without knowing whether the underlying cause was an infectious agent, witchcraft, or a punishment from the gods for impious thoughts. And not knowing the root cause severely limits your ability to manage the issue from a policy perspective. For instance you could launch a social campaign to persuade people to be more pious. That's close to level we're at in our understanding of parenting.
dctoedt 6y ago
Struggle seems to be beneficial — TFA reminds me of a chapter in a book I'm Reading, Range by David Epstein [0]: When it comes to long-term retention and application of information, students seem to learn better if they have to struggle with the material, whereas if they have it beautifully explained to them by gifted teachers, they (the students) enjoy the immediate feeling of understanding, but later they don't perform as well in terms of recall- or use of the information. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World-ebook/dp/B07H1ZYWTM/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized... (not an affiliate link AFAIK)
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  Makes perfect sense to me; many other benefits are also obtained from having to struggle -- persistence, determination, confidence in the face of new challenges, resilience, empathy....
- h2odragon 6y ago
  The value something has for us relates to how much we paid for it. The thing we struggled to learn is knowledge more dear than that which came as obvious, elegant revelation.
godelzilla 6y ago
The title of this article alone is misleading at best. Too much weak, bad, and pseudo science on this "hacker" website.
analog31 6y ago
Blaming "over parenting" has been around for at least as long as I've been a parent, possibly even going back generations. I wonder if the micro-management of parenting by popular culture can itself be seen as a form of over-parenting at a societal level. As we helicopter over our children, we are constantly aware of an even larger helicopter hovering over us, ready to blame parents (especially moms) for every tiny little transgression that led to our kids not growing up to be perfect in every way.
- itronitron 6y ago
  It's funny that the educational system complains the most about helicopter parenting yet they are the ones setting unrealistic performance expectations for students.
- gls2ro 6y ago
  You are so right about parents being easily judged according with some high standards. Or it might be just me the one who when saw the title of this article I was thinking: "Great, another article which will show me how bad I am at parenting" When my child was born I did an extensive research about what kind of books should I read which are baked by science and will teach me how to be a good parent and I read most of these books. Then I found that - at least for me - it is very hard to apply what they are suggesting. Then I started to feel bad that I am not doing enough. I even paid time to talk with a paediatric psychologist to make sure that I was understanding the science of child development in the right way. And after a couple of sessions which were mostly going like this: I was going with a list of studies I read and questions I had about how to apply them and she explaining the big picture and where does fit or not. Until one day when she asked: "Did you watched your child? What does he want? What does he enjoy? Is he ready for this?" And then (months later) I realised that by trying to apply all this things I was not myself and in the same time I was actually not paying attention to the child's own needs. I put a lot of stress to myself to the edge of burnout by reading and thinking all the time about this good parenting stuff. He is a full person which his own desires and forming his personality. Does not matter what I want him to be. I should offer the best that I can but in the direction that he wants to explore. Now we go for a bike ride. Or play outside. Or read. Or do a paper rocket. Sometimes I help him dress, sometimes he wants to do it himself. But I don't have a plan of how the day will be. I still struggle with questions about my parenting style. But I try to be more aware of his personality.
david-cako 6y ago
Anecdotally, if your parents treat you like an adult and someone who deserves responsibility, you quickly grow to fill those shoes. I think you live a very different mental life as a child when are taught to evaluate situations and make decisions.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
  But when your parents have the expectation that you are their trained slave but meter work unfairly among siblings, you learn to resent work and leaders. Also when they criticize you for not doing it right, you just give up. Speaking from experience and having debrainwashed myself from said mindset.
mcrittenden 6y ago
Lots of identical twin and adoption studies make a very convincing case that almost none of this stuff comes from parenting style and upbringing. It's all genetics. https://www.todaysparent.com/family/nature-vs-nurture-does-parenting-even-matter/ https://www.todaysparent.com/family/nature-vs-nurture-does-p...
daniellarusso 6y ago
So, I see this story is on the BBC, but seems to reference US based research. So, I wonder, how culturally relative is this? I remember reading a comment here where Americans portray confidence even when lacking knowledge, whereas in other countries, that behavior is perceived as off-putting, not admirable. I can’t imagine that inspires confidence in leadership.
11thEarlOfMar 6y ago
An obvious source of additional information on this would be studies regarding how those we identify as good leaders were raised. Were they helicoptered or 'free-range'[0] kids? I was free range. I've never been in a substantial leadership role, but I have a solid sense of self awareness, self confidence and agency. I can set a goal that is realistic for me and then work towards it, even if it's a 10 year effort. It's pretty obvious that knowing what you're capable of can only be learned if failing is part of the program. You can't know how much you can dead lift until you've tried to push more than you physically can. You can't know how accurately you can shoot without missing. You won't know how much you can learn in a semester without poor test scores. Once you know the limits, those limits are another point to draw on when planning your life. Free range parenting serves that purpose better than helicoptering. [0] https://www.todaysparent.com/family/parenting/the-one-thing-about-free-range-parenting-nobody-talks-about/ https://www.todaysparent.com/family/parenting/the-one-thing-...
13415 6y ago
I'm rather skeptical about this and this could also be a case of correlation!=causation. First of all, what they mean by "leaders" are management positions. However, the professional choices that lead to these are mostly based on your family background in many countries, e.g. the connections of the parents, how much parents pressure their children into certain career paths that are more likely to lead to leadership positions, and the necessary money for expensive education. To you give you an example, one of my close friends from school is the CFO of a successful company. His father was a manager, too. He had good contacts to the media business, so when this friend of mine was studying economics his father's contacts gave him an internship as the personal assistant of a board member of one of the worlds top five media concerns. The contacts from this internship later allowed him to get a five million Euro loan just to cover the advertising costs of a co-founded startup (which failed, btw). This friend of mine is not special in any way. He's kind, reasonable and an overall intelligent person like many others. I really don't think leadership positions have much to do with character traits or parenting. You can find all kinds of different people in elevated positions, from sociopaths to sensitive people with a kindred spirit. As another example, if you study at Harvard in certain areas and come from a wealthy, well-connected family, then you are way more likely to end up in a leadership position in business or politics in the US than if you study at a non-Ivy League university or abroad. The same is true for Oxford in the UK, or one of the Grands Ecoles in France - and, of course, unless you're a total failure money and special tutoring will get you into those places.
mattgreenrocks 6y ago
Why should I be concerned with whether my child grows up to be a leader? Is this a euphemism for success? I’d much rather have a child who grows up to be resilient, kind, and compassionate.
- analog31 6y ago
  To first order, the most likely outcome is that the child will grow up to resemble their parents.
  - ofrzeta 6y ago
    What if their parents aren't very much alike?
    - analog31 6y ago
      Then it's luck o' the draw. Or the parents themselves discover that they're more alike than they realize.
- adrianmonk 6y ago
  Well, it is in the "Worklife" section of their web site, so yes, it's probably talking about career success. But leadership is a good ability to have even if you don't care about career success or money at all. Any kind of endeavor needs leaders, not just money-making endeavors. Suppose there's a problem that could be solved if volunteers banded together to do it. Who's going to initiate that, organize them, and make it happen? A leader.
- sumedh 6y ago
  > Is this a euphemism for success? Leaders usually make more money compared to others and lets be honest here, more money you have the more successful you are.
otabdeveloper4 6y ago
Do we really want everyone to be a leader?
boomboomsubban 6y ago
Does anyone have s link to the study? I'm curious what their test for "leadership skills" looks like.
yawaworht1978 6y ago
Work for your boss, but follow a true leader. There was a time where leaders and kings stood right there with their subjects on the battlefields, today the highest executives take all the money and delegate the responsibility. To see a president or king at the front lines these days is nigh impossible. If you work in a place with bosses too incompetent to be leaders, get the best monetary value out of the gig and move on to greener (more dollars) pastures as soon as the opportunity arises.
boh 6y ago
I think being wealthy is the most effective parenting style to create leaders (in the US anyway).
- golemiprague 6y ago
  Not necessarily but leading by example is the best way to educate kids, so a parent who is a leader in some capacity will have also leader children, either by socialising them or by pure genetics.
- disown 6y ago
  Not just the US. Almost every nation regardless of whether it is capitalist ( US, Britain, etc ) or communist? ( China, North Korea ) or theocratic ( Saudi Arabia ). You'll notice most of the leaders come from wealthy families.
threwawaysoff 6y ago
Let them solve their own problems, do their own chores far before other parents, let them have much more freedom, and stay out of their way. At age of majority, throw them out in the middle of nowhere with a knife, compass, and fire source.
dadoge 6y ago
Such clickbait Simple math states that not everyone can be a leader. 1 leader needs more than 1 “followers”, hence only a tiny subset of people become leaders. People can come up with all sorts of way that might increase their or their kids’ chances of becoming a leader, but in reality only a small subset ever will. And most of the time, those that do become leaders do so because of their parents’ socioeconomic status
- nlitened 6y ago
  There are so many different aspects in life — you could be a leader in some, and a follower in the others. For example, you could have a non-leadership position at your day job, but lead local neighborhood’s landscaping initiatives, or organize a hobby club, or lead a guild in an online game, or participate in local elections, or record and sell online paid math courses. Literally everybody can be a leader, there’s no shortage of leadership positions.
EGreg 6y ago
Colloquially, this parenting approach is known as ‘helicopter parenting’ in reference to the idea of hovering nearby whether needed or not. Your parents likely had good intentions, such as ensuring you didn’t face uncomfortable challenges. Unfortunately this might have had some inadvertent, unhelpful effects, including “making you less confident and less capable of facing difficulties, therefore [leading you to] exhibit poorer leadership skills”, Actually, for many parents it is not about THEIR intentions but that the child protective services can take your children away if you are not hovering nearby at all times whether needed or not. Go out to the park across the street by themselves? Could be reported. Walk home from school bus by themselves? There may be a pedophile lurking... Leave them alone at home while you’re out? Reckless child endangerment. Other countries are not like this. Previous generations in the US were not like this. But now... you’re basically never left alone even for a moment until you pass a certain age. Maybe in your own room...
flax 6y ago
I hate this pervasive notion that leadership is unquestionably a good thing. Leadership is bullshit. It's implicitly a dependency on getting other people to do things for you. Instead, we should value the abilities to work independently and in mutual cooperation.
- veddox 6y ago
  I would argue that the role of a leader is to provide the coordination that effective cooperation requires - in a sense, to foster interdependence. I believe that it is impossible for any group of people to work together without some form of leadership taking place. I also believe that the bigger the task, the more important it becomes to have good coordination and leadership. Of course, that‘s not to say that there aren‘t plenty of „leaders“ out there who‘s idea of their job is to „get other people to do things for you“.
anatoly 6y ago
There's this trend of using the words "leaders", "leadership", where I think 20 years ago we just said "managers", or maybe "upper management". It's unsettling to me. Is this another step on the euphemism treadmill?
- aitchnyu 6y ago
  IME leader/manager is similar to home/house or dad/father and there is a growing hype for leadership.
- qznc 6y ago
  It becomes a definition game. I'd say that most managers are not leaders but administrators.
sradman 6y ago
The paper Can a Parent Do Too Much for Their Child? An Examination By Parenting Professionals of the Concept of Overparenting [1]: > One hundred and twenty-eight professionals responded to an online survey about their observations of overparenting, with eighty-six respondents providing lists of the types of actions they believed were behavioural examples of the term. This study demonstrates that 128 “professionals” are still oblivious to Judith Rich Harris’ findings 22 years after she published The Nurture Assumption [2]. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-psychologists-and-counsellors-in-schools/article/can-a-parent-do-too-much-for-their-child-an-examination-by-parenting-professionals-of-the-concept-of-overparenting/3E190E449B5F74EBCA43DECF7BD0470A# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-psycholog... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption

153 points by adrian_mrd 6y ago

It’s interesting that the kids with helicopter parents had reduced confidence, and reduced perception of their own skills - confidence does seem to be a necessary (but not sufficient) thing for leadership.

chrisweekly 6y ago
Yes - interesting and important. Dweck's "Mindset" (Growth, vs Fixed) speaks to this, as does "Free-Range Parenting".

hirundo 6y ago

So much focus on developing the confidence and skills necessary to be a good leader. So little on developing the substance, breadth, and judgement necessary to lead to a place worth going. It would be nice if leadership skills and confidence correlated with wisdom and capability. But if they do it seems to be weak. Which makes people worth following that can lead so rare.

credit_guy 6y ago
I can't upvote this more. Leadership comes from confidence, confidence comes from expertise, expertise comes from learning and practice. Confidence without expertise is hollow; leadership with hollow confidence and no expertise is quite dubious. A certain guy who likes to golf comes to mind.
- lumberingjack 6y ago
  Obama and Biden I was thinking the same things they golf so freaking much
- jtbayly 6y ago
  I assume you’re talking about this guy? https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/AP110618021437.jpg https://freebeacon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/AP11061802... Edit: Lol. I love the downvotes. I mean, who are you talking about? Tiger Woods? Jack Nicklaus? Or were you dragging politics into this just to make a cheap shot? If so, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
  - arolihas 6y ago
    Trump has played 308 rounds of golf since becoming president in 2017. Obama in his 8 years in office had played 333.
    - lumberingjack 6y ago
      One of them owns several places where you can golf the other one is married to a man
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - MobileVet 6y ago
      Easy now... let’s not bring facts into this discussion.
      - arolihas 6y ago
        My bad, I should be more careful around trump supporters, I know they’re allergic to facts.
    - bjourne 6y ago
      Interestingly, in Trump's book How to get Rich he recommends taking up golf as a means to becoming successful.
      - Retric 6y ago
        It seems a stretch to assume he actually wrote any of the books with his name on the cover. Ghostwriters are cheap, and writing takes time. That’s not a dig, it just seems like a poor ROI.
- bzb6 6y ago
  You can make a point like this without getting politics involved because it inevitably cheapens the discussion.
  - madbkarim 6y ago
    How’s that comment is political?
- lordnacho 6y ago
  If you look at schools, especially elite ones, there's a strange desire for all the kids to become leaders. Nobody questions it, I don't know why. I guess the school thinks it's useful to be associated with some future leaders? The thing is leadership ought to be like you say. Some kind of competence that allows you to help a group of people complete some kind of task. But let's be honest. The kids want to be student council president because it's prestigious. They grow up and then they want to be CEO because it's prestigious and well paying. They pay lip service to the idea of helping a team, but really, we know they don't care all that much. It's ass backwards, people want to be leaders because {prize} and then they think about how to get there. Sometimes we get lucky and they conclude that they need to climb the ladder by being competent (this fails a lot due to pyramid structures and politics), but often they just figure out that to seem competent, you have to shout a lot about how competent you are.
  - dpeck 6y ago
    Schools, especially elite ones, often see their purpose as creating/fostering leaders out of the pool of potential that they’ve curated.
  - poulsbohemian 6y ago
    > If you look at schools, especially elite ones, there's a strange desire for all the kids to become leaders. Those schools maintain their status and position by ensuring their alumni become leaders. Thus it is to their advantage. Which brings us to the bigger picture... we live in a Darwinian word of evolve-or-die, strongest-will-survive. Thus passing on to our children the skills of leadership are part of this same desire for our children to thrive.
    - technothrasher 6y ago
      That sounds more like a Lamarckian metaphor than Darwinian one.
  - hrktb 6y ago
    > Nobody questions it, I don't know why. Money. In our society it pays more in average to be a leader. On the why it pays more, I’d posit leaders are closer to the money source so get more negotiating power as they have more information.
- agumonkey 6y ago
  Also empathy and altruism. You have to care about how everyone is doing and how the whole group feels.
clairity 6y ago
we make this kind of mistake all the time. it's the basis of the "you get what you measure" aphorism. confidence and charisma are secondary signals, loosely correlated with wisdom and capability. once we emphasize confidence and charisma over wisdom and capability in our leader-choosing algorithm (how political contests have evolved, for instance), we're pressuring the system to weaken that correlation even further, as it's very hard (likely impossible) to maximize all desirable characteristics at the same time. we can see this with popularity itself, which has changed over the past century in the (american) culture from emphasizing capability to emphasizing confidence (with the concomitant rise of mass media and the concentration of mass attention and esteem).
ericnolte 6y ago
Skills associated with great leadership have many applications outside of leadership itself. Traits such as high empathy, confidence, creativity, flexibility make great leaders, but also just generally make great people. It would be no surprise the two are correlated!
- dnautics 6y ago
  Honestly as a follower those are commonly praised, but bad signals. You want a leader who is loyal to you and materially and socially supportive of you above almost all else. It's such a mind fuck to work for someone who is empathetic but doesn't stand up for you, or even undermines what you are doing (whether or not deliberately). You can wind up sinking years of your life by being stuck in that situation without even seeing it
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    We'd do well if we all lived by the immortal words of Arthur Seaton: "There's no peace between worker and management, only a truce over paychecks."
    - dnautics 6y ago
      Paychecks are the "almost all else" in my assertion, yes. But I think it's wrong to assume that jobs can't or shouldn't provide value beyond remuneration.
qzw 6y ago
This is very astute. Some of history’s “best” leaders have been humanity’s greatest villains.
- api 6y ago
  Confidence is usually confused with competence, and charisma with vision and direction. I've seen this enough that I've come to believe it's hard wired to some extent, though it can be overridden rationally. Confidence and charisma seems to tell our so-called "reptile brain" that this is a big alpha that should be followed, and I strongly suspect that the effect also tends to down-regulate the rational mind in the same way that stress and fear do. I've experienced the "if they're in the room you agree with them" type of charisma more than once, and personally I always found it creepy and disturbing. Looking past superficial confidence and charisma is something that should be explicitly taught.
derefr 6y ago
> It would be nice if leadership skills and confidence correlated with wisdom and capability. Why? That only seems like it would be nice in a world where leadership skills and confidence are rare, and thus it's a "seller's market" for people with those skills, where people might have to settle for just picking a leader because they are good at leadership, regardless of whether they are wise. (Which is, admittedly, the world we live in now.) However, in a world/cultural zeitgeist where leadership and confidence are commonly-cultivated attributes (like conscientiousness is in today's world: something inculcated by parents, teachers, media, etc.), most people would have that attribute, making most people potential leaders — and thus there would be a "buyer's market" for leaders. Leadership ability could be taken as pure table-stakes, and leaders would be selected first-and-foremost on their wisdom/capability/etc. It is exactly the focus of the article, taken forward, that would make such a world come to pass.
- feoren 6y ago
  What about a world where we all agreed to fight against our natural tendency to follow the guy who shouts the loudest and instead pick leaders who have the traits we want, like wisdom and capability? Then we don't need to bother trying to teach a bunch of naturally shy, intelligent people to shout at each other more.
  - TheAceOfHearts 6y ago
    What about a world where we're not compelled to follow anyone just because another segment of the population thinks it's correct?
  - notriddle 6y ago
    Do you know how to measure that?
amelius 6y ago
Yes. There is too little data to claim or even suggest that there exists a "recipe" for creating good leaders. Better to read some biographies of great leaders so at least you have a good view of the original data. Here is one for starters: https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/05/those-who-have-known-angela-merkel-describe-her-rise-to-prominence/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/05/those-who-hav...
- veddox 6y ago
  > There is too little data to claim or even suggest that there exists a "recipe" for creating good leaders. We‘ve been studying leadership since the very first books were written (and probably since the first tribal elders started sharing their experiences around the camp fire). It is important to keep in mind that effective leadership can be stunningly diverse and depends heavily on personality and context. Stanley McChrystal makes this point quite well. Nonetheless, there are certain characteristics and traits that many effective leaders exhibit in some way or another. (IMO, John Maxwell provides an excellent summary of these.) But I heartily agree with your sentiment that reading biographies of leaders is one of the best ways of „learning the trade“ (aside from actually, you know, leading).
jgalt212 6y ago
> developing the substance, breadth, and judgement A leader cannot have one without the other. If you've spend any time amongst high academic performers, many of these folks have "developing the substance, breadth, and judgement", but not nearly as many have the confidence to apply these skills as leaders.
aksss 6y ago
Impatience for indecisiveness, courage to move forward with uncertainty, a focus on goals, vision of the goal, an ability to identify and overcome obstacles, the ability to cultivate and grow effective lieutenants. These are also some attributes of leadership that seem to me more a product of personality, and while you can learn to hone them, changing one’s personality isn’t that common or easy, IME.
marmaduke 6y ago
The focus is perhaps in proportion to how children are. You can make them confident by making their wishes come true (“I want a piece of candy”, ok here you go); developing substance and judgement is a profound Socratic experience that gives every would be parent figure a run for their money (or, well, children) All to say your comment is spot-on.
znpy 6y ago
In fairness, the title says "leaders", not "good leaders".

the_snooze 6y ago

>You’ve probably noticed how some of your colleagues take to leadership roles like a duck to water. They’re confident telling others what to do, and happy taking on an ever-growing number of responsibilities. It couldn’t be more different for others: bossing around people feels awkward, and a nagging self-doubt shadows every decision. Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around?" A healthier and more productive view of it is giving people what they need to grow and be successful. It's when a person guides someone and serves as a good steward for them, not exploiting them to whatever ends are at hand.

HarryHirsch 6y ago
Why is the popular conception of leadership "bossing people around? I guess this is because it dovetails with common experience. A leader these days doesn't have to have subject knowledge, he has connections and charisma and knows where to find experts that work for him. Just look at Elon Musk.
- btilly 6y ago
  I could believe the general thesis, but Elon Musk is just about the worst example that you could have picked. One of his outstanding characteristics is that he is constantly learning subject knowledge. Yes, he hires subject experts, but then he effectively arranges for private tutoring until he knows what he needs of what they know. Elon is a big believer that he should be able to do any job of anyone who he employs, and to a shocking extent it is actually true.
  - perilunar 6y ago
    Also he is severely lacking in charisma.
jerf 6y ago
"Why is the popular conception of leadership 'bossing people around?'" That's a good question I've been pondering for a while and still don't have a great answer for. I think some of it is that one degenerate form of leadership is to conflate it with authority, and a lot of people's experience with "leadership" is simply to receive orders. I actually would call what you describe as the ideal form of management, which is not leadership either. An ideal manager is not simply an authority user/abuser, but someone who clears obstacles out of the way and works to enhance the ones they are managing's skills, but ideally, only a bit of authority is deployed, and a manager may in fact exhibit no leadership at all. (For instance, corporate goals may simply come from higher up, or market pressures, or things other than "leadership" per se.) (There are also degenerate cases where raw, naked authority is in fact necessary and extensively used; I'm sure a lot of us worked a job at McDonalds or some rough equivalent and have memories of how much it was based on authority... fewer of us have experiences of managing in that environment and being directly exposed to the fact that it is just the only way to make it work, however distasteful you may find that fact.) For me, leadership should be reserved for the cases in which one is visibly leading, e.g., you start a new initiative somewhere, gather up people to voluntarily follow you by a variety of non-coercive means, and then hold the group together in a variety of very context-sensitive means. True leadership is rare. Authority is inescapable, good management is a gem to be treasured but still not that rare, but leadership is a rare thing. Most groups are held together by other bonds.

itronitron 6y ago

>> The research relies on teenagers retrospectively recalling their parents’ behaviour Seems likely that students that want to be perceived as having 'leadership potential' are going to understate their parents' involvement in their K-12 education. They are just practicing their origin story.

xixixao 6y ago
Every article like this should mention that observation can only show correlation, but cannot prove causation. I personally do believe causation is more likely here, but I cannot be sure based on the study.
- analog31 6y ago
  In addition, simply knowing that there's a causal relationship doesn't identify the cause. For instance you could discover that a sick person traveling to a distant town caused the people in that town to become sick, without knowing whether the underlying cause was an infectious agent, witchcraft, or a punishment from the gods for impious thoughts. And not knowing the root cause severely limits your ability to manage the issue from a policy perspective. For instance you could launch a social campaign to persuade people to be more pious. That's close to level we're at in our understanding of parenting.

dctoedt 6y ago

Struggle seems to be beneficial — TFA reminds me of a chapter in a book I'm Reading, Range by David Epstein [0]: When it comes to long-term retention and application of information, students seem to learn better if they have to struggle with the material, whereas if they have it beautifully explained to them by gifted teachers, they (the students) enjoy the immediate feeling of understanding, but later they don't perform as well in terms of recall- or use of the information. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World-ebook/dp/B07H1ZYWTM/ref=sr_1_1 https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized... (not an affiliate link AFAIK)

chrisweekly 6y ago
Makes perfect sense to me; many other benefits are also obtained from having to struggle -- persistence, determination, confidence in the face of new challenges, resilience, empathy....
h2odragon 6y ago
The value something has for us relates to how much we paid for it. The thing we struggled to learn is knowledge more dear than that which came as obvious, elegant revelation.

godelzilla 6y ago

The title of this article alone is misleading at best. Too much weak, bad, and pseudo science on this "hacker" website.

analog31 6y ago

Blaming "over parenting" has been around for at least as long as I've been a parent, possibly even going back generations. I wonder if the micro-management of parenting by popular culture can itself be seen as a form of over-parenting at a societal level. As we helicopter over our children, we are constantly aware of an even larger helicopter hovering over us, ready to blame parents (especially moms) for every tiny little transgression that led to our kids not growing up to be perfect in every way.

itronitron 6y ago
It's funny that the educational system complains the most about helicopter parenting yet they are the ones setting unrealistic performance expectations for students.
gls2ro 6y ago
You are so right about parents being easily judged according with some high standards. Or it might be just me the one who when saw the title of this article I was thinking: "Great, another article which will show me how bad I am at parenting" When my child was born I did an extensive research about what kind of books should I read which are baked by science and will teach me how to be a good parent and I read most of these books. Then I found that - at least for me - it is very hard to apply what they are suggesting. Then I started to feel bad that I am not doing enough. I even paid time to talk with a paediatric psychologist to make sure that I was understanding the science of child development in the right way. And after a couple of sessions which were mostly going like this: I was going with a list of studies I read and questions I had about how to apply them and she explaining the big picture and where does fit or not. Until one day when she asked: "Did you watched your child? What does he want? What does he enjoy? Is he ready for this?" And then (months later) I realised that by trying to apply all this things I was not myself and in the same time I was actually not paying attention to the child's own needs. I put a lot of stress to myself to the edge of burnout by reading and thinking all the time about this good parenting stuff. He is a full person which his own desires and forming his personality. Does not matter what I want him to be. I should offer the best that I can but in the direction that he wants to explore. Now we go for a bike ride. Or play outside. Or read. Or do a paper rocket. Sometimes I help him dress, sometimes he wants to do it himself. But I don't have a plan of how the day will be. I still struggle with questions about my parenting style. But I try to be more aware of his personality.

david-cako 6y ago

Anecdotally, if your parents treat you like an adult and someone who deserves responsibility, you quickly grow to fill those shoes. I think you live a very different mental life as a child when are taught to evaluate situations and make decisions.

MeinBlutIstBlau 6y ago
But when your parents have the expectation that you are their trained slave but meter work unfairly among siblings, you learn to resent work and leaders. Also when they criticize you for not doing it right, you just give up. Speaking from experience and having debrainwashed myself from said mindset.

mcrittenden 6y ago

Lots of identical twin and adoption studies make a very convincing case that almost none of this stuff comes from parenting style and upbringing. It's all genetics. https://www.todaysparent.com/family/nature-vs-nurture-does-parenting-even-matter/ https://www.todaysparent.com/family/nature-vs-nurture-does-p...

daniellarusso 6y ago

So, I see this story is on the BBC, but seems to reference US based research. So, I wonder, how culturally relative is this? I remember reading a comment here where Americans portray confidence even when lacking knowledge, whereas in other countries, that behavior is perceived as off-putting, not admirable. I can’t imagine that inspires confidence in leadership.

11thEarlOfMar 6y ago

An obvious source of additional information on this would be studies regarding how those we identify as good leaders were raised. Were they helicoptered or 'free-range'[0] kids? I was free range. I've never been in a substantial leadership role, but I have a solid sense of self awareness, self confidence and agency. I can set a goal that is realistic for me and then work towards it, even if it's a 10 year effort. It's pretty obvious that knowing what you're capable of can only be learned if failing is part of the program. You can't know how much you can dead lift until you've tried to push more than you physically can. You can't know how accurately you can shoot without missing. You won't know how much you can learn in a semester without poor test scores. Once you know the limits, those limits are another point to draw on when planning your life. Free range parenting serves that purpose better than helicoptering. [0] https://www.todaysparent.com/family/parenting/the-one-thing-about-free-range-parenting-nobody-talks-about/ https://www.todaysparent.com/family/parenting/the-one-thing-...

13415 6y ago

I'm rather skeptical about this and this could also be a case of correlation!=causation. First of all, what they mean by "leaders" are management positions. However, the professional choices that lead to these are mostly based on your family background in many countries, e.g. the connections of the parents, how much parents pressure their children into certain career paths that are more likely to lead to leadership positions, and the necessary money for expensive education. To you give you an example, one of my close friends from school is the CFO of a successful company. His father was a manager, too. He had good contacts to the media business, so when this friend of mine was studying economics his father's contacts gave him an internship as the personal assistant of a board member of one of the worlds top five media concerns. The contacts from this internship later allowed him to get a five million Euro loan just to cover the advertising costs of a co-founded startup (which failed, btw). This friend of mine is not special in any way. He's kind, reasonable and an overall intelligent person like many others. I really don't think leadership positions have much to do with character traits or parenting. You can find all kinds of different people in elevated positions, from sociopaths to sensitive people with a kindred spirit. As another example, if you study at Harvard in certain areas and come from a wealthy, well-connected family, then you are way more likely to end up in a leadership position in business or politics in the US than if you study at a non-Ivy League university or abroad. The same is true for Oxford in the UK, or one of the Grands Ecoles in France - and, of course, unless you're a total failure money and special tutoring will get you into those places.

mattgreenrocks 6y ago

Why should I be concerned with whether my child grows up to be a leader? Is this a euphemism for success? I’d much rather have a child who grows up to be resilient, kind, and compassionate.

analog31 6y ago
To first order, the most likely outcome is that the child will grow up to resemble their parents.
- ofrzeta 6y ago
  What if their parents aren't very much alike?
  - analog31 6y ago
    Then it's luck o' the draw. Or the parents themselves discover that they're more alike than they realize.
adrianmonk 6y ago
Well, it is in the "Worklife" section of their web site, so yes, it's probably talking about career success. But leadership is a good ability to have even if you don't care about career success or money at all. Any kind of endeavor needs leaders, not just money-making endeavors. Suppose there's a problem that could be solved if volunteers banded together to do it. Who's going to initiate that, organize them, and make it happen? A leader.
sumedh 6y ago
> Is this a euphemism for success? Leaders usually make more money compared to others and lets be honest here, more money you have the more successful you are.

otabdeveloper4 6y ago

Do we really want everyone to be a leader?

boomboomsubban 6y ago

Does anyone have s link to the study? I'm curious what their test for "leadership skills" looks like.

yawaworht1978 6y ago

Work for your boss, but follow a true leader. There was a time where leaders and kings stood right there with their subjects on the battlefields, today the highest executives take all the money and delegate the responsibility. To see a president or king at the front lines these days is nigh impossible. If you work in a place with bosses too incompetent to be leaders, get the best monetary value out of the gig and move on to greener (more dollars) pastures as soon as the opportunity arises.

boh 6y ago

I think being wealthy is the most effective parenting style to create leaders (in the US anyway).

golemiprague 6y ago
Not necessarily but leading by example is the best way to educate kids, so a parent who is a leader in some capacity will have also leader children, either by socialising them or by pure genetics.
disown 6y ago
Not just the US. Almost every nation regardless of whether it is capitalist ( US, Britain, etc ) or communist? ( China, North Korea ) or theocratic ( Saudi Arabia ). You'll notice most of the leaders come from wealthy families.

threwawaysoff 6y ago

Let them solve their own problems, do their own chores far before other parents, let them have much more freedom, and stay out of their way. At age of majority, throw them out in the middle of nowhere with a knife, compass, and fire source.

dadoge 6y ago

Such clickbait Simple math states that not everyone can be a leader. 1 leader needs more than 1 “followers”, hence only a tiny subset of people become leaders. People can come up with all sorts of way that might increase their or their kids’ chances of becoming a leader, but in reality only a small subset ever will. And most of the time, those that do become leaders do so because of their parents’ socioeconomic status

nlitened 6y ago
There are so many different aspects in life — you could be a leader in some, and a follower in the others. For example, you could have a non-leadership position at your day job, but lead local neighborhood’s landscaping initiatives, or organize a hobby club, or lead a guild in an online game, or participate in local elections, or record and sell online paid math courses. Literally everybody can be a leader, there’s no shortage of leadership positions.

EGreg 6y ago

Colloquially, this parenting approach is known as ‘helicopter parenting’ in reference to the idea of hovering nearby whether needed or not. Your parents likely had good intentions, such as ensuring you didn’t face uncomfortable challenges. Unfortunately this might have had some inadvertent, unhelpful effects, including “making you less confident and less capable of facing difficulties, therefore [leading you to] exhibit poorer leadership skills”, Actually, for many parents it is not about THEIR intentions but that the child protective services can take your children away if you are not hovering nearby at all times whether needed or not. Go out to the park across the street by themselves? Could be reported. Walk home from school bus by themselves? There may be a pedophile lurking... Leave them alone at home while you’re out? Reckless child endangerment. Other countries are not like this. Previous generations in the US were not like this. But now... you’re basically never left alone even for a moment until you pass a certain age. Maybe in your own room...

flax 6y ago

I hate this pervasive notion that leadership is unquestionably a good thing. Leadership is bullshit. It's implicitly a dependency on getting other people to do things for you. Instead, we should value the abilities to work independently and in mutual cooperation.

veddox 6y ago
I would argue that the role of a leader is to provide the coordination that effective cooperation requires - in a sense, to foster interdependence. I believe that it is impossible for any group of people to work together without some form of leadership taking place. I also believe that the bigger the task, the more important it becomes to have good coordination and leadership. Of course, that‘s not to say that there aren‘t plenty of „leaders“ out there who‘s idea of their job is to „get other people to do things for you“.

anatoly 6y ago

There's this trend of using the words "leaders", "leadership", where I think 20 years ago we just said "managers", or maybe "upper management". It's unsettling to me. Is this another step on the euphemism treadmill?

aitchnyu 6y ago
IME leader/manager is similar to home/house or dad/father and there is a growing hype for leadership.
qznc 6y ago
It becomes a definition game. I'd say that most managers are not leaders but administrators.

sradman 6y ago

The paper Can a Parent Do Too Much for Their Child? An Examination By Parenting Professionals of the Concept of Overparenting [1]: > One hundred and twenty-eight professionals responded to an online survey about their observations of overparenting, with eighty-six respondents providing lists of the types of actions they believed were behavioural examples of the term. This study demonstrates that 128 “professionals” are still oblivious to Judith Rich Harris’ findings 22 years after she published The Nurture Assumption [2]. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-psychologists-and-counsellors-in-schools/article/can-a-parent-do-too-much-for-their-child-an-examination-by-parenting-professionals-of-the-concept-of-overparenting/3E190E449B5F74EBCA43DECF7BD0470A# https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-psycholog... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nurture_Assumption